Why B Corps Matter: Transforming Your Business for Positive Change

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Welcome to the Green Element Sustainable Business Podcast. Where we feature business leaders and innovators transforming their operations to be more environmentally and socially sustainable. I'm your host, Will Richardson. In this episode, we're focusing in on B Corp Month. Every year during March, B Lab and the global B Corp community join together to celebrate everything it means to be a B Corp. So what exactly is a B Corp? A B Corp is a for-profit company certified by the nonprofit B Lab to meet rigorous standards of social and environmental performance, accountability, sustainability, and transparency. B Corp is to business what Fairtrade is to coffee. It's a global movement with a vision, and that vision is that businesses that work together as a force for good can change the world. The B Corp movement's dream is that companies will compete not just to be the best in the world, but to be the best for the world. So how can a company genuinely want to do good? Won't that compromise its goal of maximising financial profit for owners or shareholders? Of course, we all know of corporations that pride themselves on their support of charities or pro bono work. But these are very small walk-on parts in the wings compared with the main performance maximizing profits. Green Element heard about the B Corp movement back in 2014, and when a client expressed an interest in becoming a certified B Corp, we decided to find out more. What we found amazed and inspired us. The B Corp movement isn't just another standard. It's not simply an aspiration or a vision. It offers a systemic, concrete, market-based, and scalable solution to society's greatest challenges. Passing laws, driving capital, and improving the quality of lives across the world. I discovered that the B Corp standard brought together all the disparate social, governance, community, environmental, and employee standards that our company already subscribed to, and so much more. The B Corp standard made us look deep into our organization and examine each and every aspect of our conduct in depth. We felt proud that we were already moving in the same direction as the B Corp movements. But being a part of the B Corp community and being able to protect the Green Element mission by embedding these principles into the company's DNA made it crystal clear to me that becoming a certified B Corp was the right move. Green Element went through the 3-step process of becoming a certified B Corp. First, meet the performance requirement by scoring at least 80 points out of a possible 200 on the B Impact Assessment. Second, meet the legal requirement by amending governing documents or adopting benefit corporation status. And third, make it official by signing the B Corp Declaration of Interdependence. As it turns out, being a force for good and increasing profits aren't mutually exclusive goals at all. Quite the reverse. Companies with social, community, and environmental responsibility at the core of their operations have achieved advantages in the marketplace: lower rates of attrition among employees and clients, increased productivity and staff motivation, and consequently increased profits, as well as making a positive difference in the lives of both stakeholders and the community. This is a new paradigm for capitalism. The economic system that's been the most successful in history globally need not implode because of its own excesses. Since becoming a certified B Corp, we've shared our knowledge and experience with fellow B Corp companies in the UK and further afield, and we've helped with the environment part of their certification process. We've found that our clients are impressed that we are a B Corp and want to find out more. In this episode, we talked to 3 businesses about their B Corp journey— businesses that are keen to encourage other organizations to do the same. We'll talk to Carly Hiscock of Bates Wells, the first UK law firm to certify as a B Corp. And we gain insights from experienced B Corp and sustainability consultant Carolina Miranda of Cultivating Capital. First up is James Thornton, the inspiring CEO of Intrepid Travel, who puts sustainability and purpose at the heart of the travel industry.

Intrepid is one of the world's kind of, I suppose, largest adventure travel companies. We really try and do 2 things as a business. We try and operate fantastic, sustainable, experience-rich travel, which is kind of our kind of core focus, if you like. And then the second thing that we try and do is operate a business that balances having both a strong purpose but also delivering profitability and hopefully proving a business case that you can be a for-purpose business but you can also be a sustainable, kind of successful business that generates a profit for its shareholders as well. And then actually, the more good things you do in the purpose space, the more that helps you grow. The more growth you do, the more that helps try and drive a bit of purpose. So, I've been lucky enough. I've been with Intrepid for 15 years, kind of worked my way through the business, based in the UK originally, which is where I'm from, Australia, back to the UK, and then Australia for the last 7 years. So, yeah, super lucky to get to lead Intrepid. We're a certified B Corp, One of the few travel companies out there that is.

It's been a challenging time for the travel industry, to say the least. What do you think the fallout from that's going to be?

I keep getting asked, well, in a post-COVID environment, surely sustainability will drop off and actually you'll just go back to driving, you know, an economic model of having to get more passengers in. Like, I do keep trying to say that actually we find our sustainable business model a competitive advantage, and actually it helps provide us with competitive advantage that helps actually drive revenue and sales and in turn then profitability. So, you know, our sustainable business model is at the heart of what we do. It's really why we entered B Corp certification 2 years ago. That was a 3-year journey for us to go on. And why we pursued that was because it's very easy in life to talk about how you grow a business or you operate certain products, but how do you prove Do you have a sustainable model? How do you prove that you're a for-purpose business? And at Intrepid, we wanted to find something that wasn't necessarily industry-specific, but kind of went right cross-functional through every aspect of our company and looked at the way in which we work with our people, the way in which we interact with our customers, the impact we have on the environment, the way in which we try and benefit our shareholders, and really went right through the journey. And that's what And that's what drove us to pursue B Corp certification and took us 3 years to get to that point to make it happen. So yeah, it's just, it's a good, good kind of evaluation of our overall business and what we're trying to achieve.

And thinking about B Corp specifically, how has that affected the way that you run your business?

Well, the thing B Corp did for us, Will, was change the way— it helped improve some of the things that we do in the organization. So B Corp methodology essentially assesses you across 200 different touchpoints in your organization, and it says, and it's really robust criteria and the modeling, it's kind of, you get, you know, 0.25 points towards a certain issue. And so it highlighted to us, for example, that from a people perspective, we didn't have sufficient diversity in the leadership space, and that was often caused by the fact that we didn't have a maternity and paternity leave policy. So, B Corp methodology helped introduce for us the notion that actually, if we had a maternity and paternity policy, that would help us retain more and more senior females in the organization, and they in turn would then not be dropping out of the workplace when they were previously dropping out, and that helped us then address our diversity issues that we had. It's other things like having, in Egypt, for example, we we always negotiate with our suppliers, and often it might be a cooking school run by a female, yet the male would come in and negotiate the commercial arrangement of working with the cooking school. And we'd say, well, actually, B Corp methodology rewards you for doing contracts directly with females and males in equal fashion. And so it prompted us to review our kind of ethical supply code in terms of the way in which we work with some of our local people on the ground. So, I know, just, it was lots of small things that I think have helped make us a better business and a better business for the people that work with us, the people that work for us, hopefully for our customers too. And it's this great thing you have to do, you have to be reassessed every 3 years and you have to meet certain credentials. And we kind of use it as a benchmark to say, well, Every 3 years, we want to try and improve by 4 or 5 points. And we get then compared against every other B Corp out there in the market. There's 3,500 B Corps around the world. Some are very big, you know, the Body Shops, the Patagonias of the world. Some are very, very small organizations. But we've all got this kind of comparative scoring between us, which is, yeah, it's pretty good. And it's very transparent and hopefully gives customers and all our stakeholders a good view of the things we do well, but also all the things that we don't do well. And as any company doesn't do certain things as well as it could and needs to improve, and so it's been good for that.

Yeah, I think that's—

we've been a B Corp now since 2015, and what it brought to us was structure similar to yours. But it's interesting that you have brought in, it's how you communicate with your suppliers in the separate countries, because that has such a powerful message that is then sent through to people, won't it?

Just to add one point there, I think it's a really good thing, as I hope, you know, I'm sure you found and we've certainly found, there's lots of people with great intentions out there, you know, and there are lots of great companies trying to do lots of really good things. But unfortunately, there's also a degree of greenwashing that goes on as well, sadly, where things are just good marketing, unfortunately. And I think, you know, when you are, when as a consumer, you're out there trying to pick pick a company and should I work with this company or should I buy this company's products or should I be employed by this company? Trying to define the difference between good marketing and actually what really is a business that is designed to be for good is often hard to do. And we've certainly found that B Corp certification does help provide a point of distinction.

On that, so kind of, and I have not looked at it in massive detail, but kind of company per 100,000 or per 1,000 people. I think Australia and New Zealand have more B Corps than any other country in the world, including the UK. And the UK is fairly strong on B Corp.

Yeah.

And I think I was looking at stuff the other day and thinking, wow, that is a lot of B Corps in Australia and New Zealand. And it was up there with the UK. And we know that there are more population.

Sure.

So do you see your customers picking you over others because there's more knowledge around B Corp in Australia?

So, I mean, firstly, 50% of our customers are Aussies and Kiwis, 25% are Brits, 25% are Americans and Canadians. That's our kind of global split. You know, in Australia, of the 3,000— sorry, of the 3,500 B Corps globally, 10% are in Australia and New Zealand. So it is a disproportionate amount by head of population. To your question, do people pick us as a direct result? I don't have any tangible results, Will, that say yes. I can't sit here now and say because we are a B Corp, that then generated me an extra 20% of customers. I can't tell you that. All I can tell you is that in the last 4 or 5 years, we've been back under the ownership of our founders and our staff. We have About 70 shareholders. So our 2 co-founders and about 68 of our staff are now shareholders, which is fantastic. And we've pursued 2 things: growing the market for sustainable, experience-rich travel, operating a business that balances purpose and profitability. The more things we have done in the purpose space, the more that— and we've talked about that— the more that has helped us grow. And the more we grow, the more we're able to do good things in the purpose space. And we do believe that is cyclical. And that has helped drive the 21% compound average growth rate that we've had over the course of the last 4 years and the record level of profitability we've had. You know, our B Corp, our sustainability things that we're involved in, they cost quite a bit of money, but we tangibly believe they help drive our growth better as an organization. And not just drive our growth better as an organization, Will, They help us attract better people. And I really, well, we do know this as one tangible thing. We are able to employ a higher quality of talent than we would ordinarily be able to attract into our organization because we are a certified B Corp. And particularly millennials want to work for companies that actually stand for something. So I think that's really helped us as an organization. So no, it hasn't. I can't give you a metric to say it's driven customers outside of our results would suggest it probably has, although indirectly, but it does help us attract talent into the organization.

Okay, that's interesting. Finally, James, can you pick one piece of advice that will help organizations with their corporate purpose?

I think I would say to find something you really believe in when it comes to purpose. I think you quickly get found out if you're not genuine, Will. I think I get frustrated sometimes and where companies jump on the bandwagon of every single thing that's going on. And so, but I think it's very important to pick the issues that are close to your heart, close to your business, mean something to your customers and to your employees, and then do as much research as you possibly can. Set yourself some targets of what you want to achieve, and then speak up about them and share about them. So I think it's just encouraging people to pick something they believe in, be robust around it, speak up about it, and not try and be something to everyone.

You're listening to a special B Corp episode of The Sustainable Business Podcast. Now, B Corp certification includes a legal requirement to formalize your company's alignment the B Corp movement's values and embeds a stakeholder-focused mindset. UK law firm Bates Wells is a seasoned B Corp and now helps others through the process. Here's Carly Hiscock.

We're a bit unusual, really. We call ourselves a city firm with a difference, and we refer a lot to having a positive impact, which isn't something that most law firms probably outwardly say. But when we were established in 1970, there were a clear set of core principles that the firm was founded on, and it could be basically sort of summarized as doing good work for good people. Inevitably, since 1970, we've evolved a lot, and we embedded a much more kind of outward-looking set of values, and we live by our purpose and values. And when we're in the office together, we've got a lot of branding around our values around the firm so that we can see them all and we remember them all. And as part of that journey, we became a B Corp in 2015. So that now embeds our values into what we do. And we really have a lot of synergy with our clients and we have a lot of impact-driven businesses. So that's kind of us in a nutshell, but we are a full-service law firm with a twist.

And do you think the fact that you're a B Corp has made any difference, you know, to you as a company, as the people that work within it, and also how you work with clients?

Yeah, I think it has. I mean, the timing worked brilliantly for me because I joined the firm in 2014, so I could, as a new person at the time when we became a B Corp, I think I could really see that transition that The firm I joined was very enthusiastic, very purpose-driven, very values-driven, but by becoming a B Corp, it just brought it all to the forefront of everybody's minds. So everybody in the entire firm, you know, we've got 250+ people in our firm, everybody started talking more regularly and more confidently about our values. So I think that made a real difference. And I think the accountability of being a B Corp also makes a real difference, that you become a lot more conscious of always living by those values that you've promised to uphold. And then I think there is a huge amount of synergy, as I've said, with our clients. So we act for more charities than any other law firm, but that again has evolved into social enterprises. And then because of the B Corp movement, we have a huge impact-driven base now, and I think it makes a lot more difference that a lot of difference, I should say, that we, because we're a B Corp and we do, we are a values-driven firm, we're able to have those conversations with our clients and really understand what they're about, and there's a lot more synergy with our culture. So I think although our day job is providing legal advice, it makes a huge amount of difference to be able to really understand what our clients do in their own businesses and what they're seeking to achieve.

Do you think the advice you give clients changes, is different if you're a purpose-driven business or not?

That's a really interesting question because I think, I mean, ultimately the law is the law. We're advising on the law, but I think we do tailor our advice differently to all of our clients because there are other issues that affect them in the same way that when we're giving advice to corporate bodies, that will be different to our charity clients because the legislation is different. But I think for impact businesses, our advice probably does differ because we're focused on what their aims are and how to help them get there. I suppose a recent example would be real estate law. We always have a bit of a joke in the department that the law doesn't really ever change for us because we're still working on 1925 Acts and 1954 Acts. And actually, we don't think that the law has caught up sufficiently with impact-driven businesses and actually the way the world is now and what people need. So we've had a look at our impact-driven clients and real estate, and we've looked at putting together model form leases and precedent clauses and things that are actually focused on those types of businesses. So particularly majoring on the landlord and tenant relationship and how buildings should become more sustainable and how you can embed things into your lease to make that happen.

I remember I first came across you guys years ago when we were becoming a B Corp back in 2015, and I was worried about changing our M&A, Memorandum of Association. I didn't know how to do it, and I spoke to someone in your firm and they basically said it's really easy. This is what you do, we couldn't possibly charge you for that. And they told us, I was like, oh, that's amazing, what a cool firm, that's brilliant. And it was actually really easy.

Yeah, I think on the B Corp status, it's interesting because I've had people say to me before, does it not change things for the worse in some senses? You know, there's a lot of work involved, and does it not change your whole business? And I think if your business is thinking of becoming a B Corp, then you're really already in that space and you're already doing things in that way. And it's a lot of work, but it's worth it. And I think it's really motivating when it happens. But yeah, you're exactly right. We support people on their B Corp journey. And at the moment, we're doing quite a lot of work around the reassessment and helping support clients through that. And as you said, you know, We don't charge a fortune, sometimes not at all.

When it comes to running an ethical and sustainable business, what would you say your biggest struggles so far have been, and can you tell us a bit about how you've overcome it?

So on the ethical side, I think there is a challenge in terms of our business is providing legal advice. You know, we're not marketing a product, we're not manufacturing a product or marketing a project, which product which you can say has a certain certification of this is ethical, this is ethically sourced, this is sustainable material. So I think a challenge for us as a law firm is actually proving that we do live by these principles. And I think the B Corp status is fundamental to that because, as you say, you have to change your governing documents to make sure that you do live by that. I think the other side of it is Sometimes, you know, in terms of the ethical status, people could see a grey area in terms of, you know, what cases do you take on, which clients you might act for. But we have really rigorous processes in our firm to make sure that we have an ethics committee. You know, if there's anything that we think won't live by our standards, then we have to really rigorously assess it.

If you could offer one piece of advice to our listeners, that can help them with their purpose, what do you think that would be?

I think be brave and have conviction in your purpose and kind of regularly take a step back and remind yourself about what you are trying to achieve and why you first went into it, because I think it's easy to kind of lose your way sometimes when you get bogged down in the day-to-day work, whatever your role is and whatever your business is. So I think it's, yeah, reminding yourself what you want to achieve and then being brave enough to keep saying it and keep reminding yourself and keep telling everyone about it. Otherwise, no one's going to know.

Okay.

I would say that if an organization is looking at really embedding a certain way of operating, but they don't want to maybe take a step, next step of changing their articles or if they're not in a position resource-wise to do lots of different initiatives in their business, then I think just always focus on the small things because inevitably that evolves into something that's bigger. And I think even in, you know, businesses with one person, you can remind yourself about your purpose and why you're doing what you're doing and make sure you communicate it. I think communication is always the key. And then I think as businesses grow, always making sure that your people are on board, that you're bringing them along the journey and listening to their views. I don't think that it can be a kind of dictated mandate almost, if this is the way we're doing it. It has to be genuine. If you are an impact-driven business, then that has to be genuine, it has to be authentic, and it has to be carried through your people and everything they do. So yeah, I think that's, I think that's probably my takeaway piece of advice. So yeah, the other thing I was thinking of is the fact that because we're an alternative business structure, we don't have only lawyers working in the firm. We have— it's not a traditional law firm structure of partners, solicitors, and then support staff. We're an ABS, which enables us to have other advisors in the firm. So historically, we've had people focusing on compliance to help clients with setting up financial businesses, financial services. We've had impact-driven specialists, and within our firm now we have impact professionals. So they're not, they're not actually part of the legal teams, but they help us in making sure that we understand the sector that we're working in, and they also provide a different kind of service to our clients, including the support with the B Corp reassessment. But I think that accountability is really important. I think— The B Corp movement is really interesting around that though, because I think what's brilliant about it is when you are working with an— if you're a B Corp and you're working with another B Corp, it takes that pressure off of worrying about whether or not you have that synergy, because you already know you do. You already know that you've each had to go through the same assessment criteria and make these changes to your governance documents. So you have that automatic accountability of, right, okay, we're on a level playing field here.

Carly Hiscock there from Bates Wells. Carly tells us they've been very active recently highlighting all things B Corp on their intranet and focusing on suppliers and services. Cultivating Capital has been certified B Corp since 2012, and their company's founder Carolina Miranda has been at the forefront of helping businesses to navigate B Corp certification and assessment. She works in the birthplace of B Corp, the USA, And here's how she sums up what the company's all about.

My purpose is really to do what I can to help make the world a better place. And the way that I've chosen to do that is to help businesses to operate in ways that are just more socially and environmentally beneficial, because I do think that business has a big role to play in the kind of world that we live in. When I started working as a sustainability consultant about 10 years ago, I started to recognize that the larger corporations had the resources that they needed. Not that they had all the answers, but they had the resources. And where I saw there was a gap was really with small businesses that didn't have the resources to hire, you know, chief sustainability officer, and they just weren't sure exactly what to do. They knew they wanted to do something, but they weren't sure what to do. And so what I really started to focus in on was best practices for sustainability for small businesses and really looking at what are the things that if all companies did this would really start to make a difference. And so my focus has really been on that. It's, it's been on let's not reinvent the wheel. Let's not let, you know, the perfect be the enemy of the good, but let's look at what are the best practices that already exist and bring those into organizations. And I'm a big supporter of the use of frameworks to be able to do that, because I think that third-party frameworks are really helpful, particularly for small businesses, because they help them to identify where they're doing well and what their opportunities are. And also it shows them things that they might not have thought about otherwise. And so the 2 frameworks that I've used are the B Impact Assessment, which is the one that's used to certify as B Corps. And then because I am in California, There's also a California Green Business Program that is focused more on just the environmental component, but it does provide a pretty good framework. So that's, that's the long answer, is that really it's about sustainability practices for small businesses.

Can you tell us a bit about how you engage your staff, suppliers, and customers with your mission and purpose?

Well, you know, I'm a small business owner, I'm a sole proprietor, I work with contractors, and so I would say that everybody who works with me knows very clearly what Cultivating Capital is all about. It's, it's on my website. It's who I am. It's what I do. Actually, contractors and interns seek me out because they are attracted to the work that I'm doing as a B Corp and helping others to become B Corps. So I would say that really it's It's just a part of the way that, that I operate. And certainly part of that means choosing to work with suppliers who are also values-aligned. So I always look first and foremost within the B Corp community to find who is offering product or service that my clients are going to need because, you know, we need to support other purpose-driven businesses. And I also work with a lot of women business owners, and so I do also work with a lot of women who serve as suppliers who are offering products and services that I need and that my clients need.

And I think that is the key to— I think personally the key to sustainability, full stop. I think that's the best thing that you can possibly do because I think we've all got strong skill sets, haven't we? We've all got— we all have our attributes and I think working with them and working alongside each other.

Yeah, absolutely. I would agree with that, especially since sustainability is such a broad field. Yeah, you know, I mean, you're— and you can go really deep into any area. Like, obviously you've gone really deep in terms of carbon footprint and really understanding that. And there's people who really go deep on waste reduction, and so you have zero waste specialists. And then there's people who go really deep on energy, and so you have have people who understand the ins and outs of, you know, how to optimize HVAC systems, and, you know, you're basically moving into mechanical engineer territory. And then on the social side, there are areas that people can go very deep on as well, right? You have people who can go really deep and have expertise in terms of equity, diversity, and inclusion, or people who really understand, you know, how to include social and environmental performance in HR.

If you're listening to this and you want to become more purpose-driven, what are the first steps that you think someone should do, and how do you overcome— maybe senior management aren't totally convinced on it, or there are other barriers— and what barriers have you seen and how have they been overcome?

Well, you've just touched upon one of the biggest ones, which is basically lack of support. from the CEO or senior management. Um, when I've seen sustainability programs run into roadblocks, it's really when they don't have that support from above, because that basically creates a bottleneck that limits the amount of, um, resources that are available to employees to then develop their programs. So one of the things that I do when I work with clients on developing sustainability action plans is actually taking a close look at Uh-huh. You know, what is the level of support? You know, has the CEO really specified that sustainability is a priority and allocated resources, which is basically staff and budget, in order to do this? You know, has somebody at the senior management level been designated as the point person on the sustainability program? So that you start actually looking not just at sustainability in terms of, you know, let's switch over to LED lights and let's, you know, switch over to renewable energy. Those things are obviously important, but those are, you know, individual projects that can be undertaken. They're not necessarily embedding sustainability into the company culture and creating a foundation to build upon. So, So that's, that's really important. Um, generally what I'll tell people when they're saying, you know, we really want to do this, but we don't have the support from management, is to start small. So I recommend starting a green team or a sustainability committee. You know, very few CEOs will say, you know, we're absolutely going to block our employees from, you know, forming a group like that. And then there are a lot of little things that a green team can do. You know, sometimes it might be like switching over purchasing, or it might be like, you know, organizing employees around commute alternatives. You know, those are important things, and they're good small steps for a team to take if they don't yet have full management support. And then hopefully Hopefully, they can start to build little by little and kind of raise awareness in the organization and start to get more support that they need to actually take on some more ambitious initiatives.

Do you find that people are really driven by one person, or is it a— you've mentioned green teams. Is it a collective of people? And are you finding that— and I don't want to say movement because it sounds like a cults. And I used to joke that the B Corp was a cult when we first became a B Corp. I don't know what it's like in the US, but it was very culty over here. And in a good way, of course, we're a cult. But I guess as a cult, you're always going to say it's in a good way.

We just brainwash you.

But do you feel that there's more of an appetite Yeah, I'd say definitely there's a lot more awareness and interest. Um, and I think that people are at different points in their sustainability journey, but I'm seeing an increase at all levels. So at the early stage, what you see are businesses saying, you know, we, we know we need to do something around sustainability. We're just not sure what. And so they will reach out to me and that's generally, generally when I'll help them with like a sustainability plan. plan. Um, interestingly enough, most of those clients are kind of fitting a very specific profile. They're generally around 200 to 500 employees, um, and they are looking into developing their sustainability program because they're hearing about it from their employees. So employees are saying, hey, what, what are we going to do around this? And management doesn't really have a good answer for that. And so they're looking into, okay, how do we begin to develop a sustainability program? and begin to actually develop a strategy around sustainability. Kind of farther along the spectrum are clients that I work with on B Corp certification, and so they're the ones that are generally— they're all in. Like sustainability, social impact, we know all of this is important, we want to take it to the next level, and we want to get certified as, as a B Corp. And in those cases, there's a very high level of motivation that I think is really being driven by the movement that the B Corp community is, is building, you know, worldwide. So a lot of people are really wanting to be a part of that movement, and a lot of people, particularly in— with consumer-facing brands, they're recognizing that consumers are recognizing what the B Corp certification stands for. And so once consumers start looking for that, then the brands have a big incentive to actually start working on that too.

And finally, Carolina, is there one piece of advice you'd be able to give people to help them on this journey?

Yeah, I would say, you know, the biggest thing is really to think about what you want your company to stand for? You know, what, what is it that makes your company different and unique? Then there's a lot of, you know, tools and resources and articles that kind of will guide you through figuring out your purpose. There's, you know, consultants who can help with that. But I think at the end of the day, um, most people want to do good and most people want to feel good about what they're doing. And so to really be able to look and say, you know, are we doing everything that we can? Are we acting in a way that is aligned with what I believe? You know, those are the questions that I think that, you know, CEOs and managers, you know, can be asking themselves because employees are asking themselves that. You know, we know that employees want to work with places that align with their values. Certainly there's a lot of data that shows that, you know, Generation Z and the millennials are all about purpose. Although, as someone who is not Generation Z, I also believe that others are also, you know, driven by values and purpose. And so I think that having those— asking those questions and really being thoughtful and intentional about the answers can kind of free up some some creativity. And if somebody needs, you know, more of an incentive, you know, there's a lot of data out there that shows that obviously consumers are being very intentional about the companies that they're choosing to support. And yeah, and so I think that that's really what it comes down to.

So lots of food for thought during B Corp Month. Many thanks to my guests, James Thornton, Carly Hiscock, and Carolina Miranda. If you'd like more details about becoming a B Corp and about this podcast, there'll be a link to those details and our webpage in the show description. You can also join our post-podcast discussion to share ideas, views, and comments at Sustainability Solved. That's sustainabilitysolved.org. Now thanks for listening to the Sustainable Business Podcast. I'm Will Richardson. from Green Elements, and I'll see you next time.