245: The Science of Storytelling by Will Storr
27 Mar 2026 · 89 min
In this episode of the Bookworm podcast, hosts Mike Schmitz and Corey Hixson dissect Will Storr’s The Science of Storytelling. They begin by exploring how stories transport listeners into immersive worlds—comparing Dungeons & Dragons campaigns, video‑game universes, and novels—and warn that excessive immersion can make reality feel dull. The conversation then shifts to applying story mechanics to everyday life, referencing the show’s upcoming “Life Theme” cohort and the “hero‑making brain” that seeks forward‑moving goals. They unpack the book’s structure: the first four chapters lay theoretical groundwork, while the final appendix serves as a practical, lesson‑plan‑style guide to the “sacred flaw” system. This appendix walks listeners through a checklist of questions (dramatic question, origin‑damage story, personality traits, hero‑maker moment, flaw’s impact on world, etc.) to flesh out compelling characters. Both hosts reflect on the book’s value—rating it 4–5 stars—acknowledging that while it offers no concrete action items for non‑writers, it sharpens storytelling intuition, which they argue benefits any profession. They also discuss the book’s concise 255‑page format, its blend of neuroscience research and narrative theory, and its suitability for both aspiring fiction writers and a broader audience interested in narrative thinking. The episode wraps with brief recommendations for upcoming reads (Patrick Lencioni’s The 6 Types of Working Genius, Brad Stulberg’s The Way of Excellence, and Pierce Brown’s Golden Son), and a plug for the Bookworm Pro membership.
Chapters
This episode of Bookworm is brought to you by Vitally, your copilot for AI-powered customer success. Get a free pair of AirPods Pro when you book a qualified meeting at vitally.io/bookworm. Okay, a couple of items of follow-up here. I've got 2, which I guess I've been successful with, but start asking the aww question, which is really the, and what else? I haven't had a whole lot of coaching opportunities in order to implement this, but it is top of mind. And I do find myself kind of digging a little bit deeper whenever I have conversations with people. I don't know, it's kind of hard for me to describe the scenario where I've seen this come into play, because like I said, it's not a true one-on-one coaching scenario like we read about in the last book. But there have been opportunities where like we're talking about things and, and I just— that's in the back of my mind and you just kind of, kind of keep digging and you figure out what the, the actual issues are. The other one, bandit's a good busy, that one I've been successful with. That would feel like was pretty low-hanging fruit though.
Yeah.
I, I still hate the fact that I am tempted to say it though.
It's hard to— it's hard to stop.
It is hard to stop, and it has been busy.
Yeah.
Part of that is my, my crazy schedule. I went on vacation, then I went to a conference, then I was back for basically 2 weeks. And as we record this, I leave again on Sunday, supposedly for another conference. Well, I say supposedly because we haven't had snow like all year here in the Midwest, but we are Forecasted to get 14 to 18 inches on Saturday night through Sunday. And, uh, yeah, great timing. We'll see if I actually get out.
It's a weird— it's a weird time of the year because it's— it's— we've barely gotten any as well in Colorado, and then we got like, I think, 6 or something the other day. Just like, just got dumped on. So it's a weird time of the year.
Uh, you've got one action item here, Posting the 7 questions somewhere where you'll see them. Did you do that?
I did. So, for those of you who may not have listened to the last episode, the 7 questions: kickstart, awe, focus, foundation, lazy, strategic, and learning. Those are the 7 questions. And what I did is I put those in my daily note because that made the most sense. I was like, well, I could print this out and put it somewhere. I was like, or I could put it in my daily note and then I see them in my daily note when they come up. So they're in my daily note. I don't know if they're going to have like a major impact. I don't know if they are having a major impact or not. I hopefully by just seeing them over and over again, that will help me think about one or some of them more. So yes, check, big green checkmark, gold star for me.
Nice. We did pretty good on the follow-up this time.
I know. I know we don't do, we don't do that great all the time, but this time we nailed it.
Yeah, I am curious, uh, why you think this was important enough to put in the daily note. Like, do you really need to look at this every day as part of your daily note? The daily note seems like prime real estate.
Yeah, you're probably right. Um, it was the easiest place for me to put it where I knew I would see them.
Yeah, which is like, which is fine, but I guess I'm just kind of curious how often you're looking at that and then how often you have opportunity to to use that stuff? I'm sure it's actually pretty frequent. Yeah.
So this actually is, and part of it goes into the conversation we had about the book for me, whereas I thought about like, okay, coaching yourself as I read that book, not just coaching other people. So when I think about coaching myself, like for example, the and what else question helps me, like when I see that, you know, and I'm thinking about Okay, I'm developing this talk or this lesson or the design of some, whatever it is. And what else? What are we not thinking about? What have we not considered here? So, that helps me out. Another one would be the learning question. I get students that come in all the time and they'll say something, and that helps me remember to ask them, well, what was most useful? What did you get out of this kind of a thing? Should it stay in there all the time? No. Is it the wrong place to put it? I don't think so. You're right though, prime real estate is, that daily note is prime real estate. And I don't like the idea of having to scroll the daily note. I want the daily note to be the normal size of, not my phone, because you can't really, you always have to scroll your phone, but Like on a normal computer screen, I want that daily note to be full, full page, if that makes sense. I don't want to scroll that. So will they get reduced down? Probably. Are they too big right now? Probably. But that's okay. I'm all right with that right now.
So have you heard the good news, Corey, about collapsible callouts?
No.
Do you know, you know how to use callouts in Obsidian?
Oh yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. Okay. So you can have the different types, the different colors, that kind of stuff.
Mm-hmm.
The first line of the callout at the end of the— in the end of the brackets, basically. So what you actually use to determine what type of callout it's going to be outside of the last, like, right bracket, you can either do a plus or a minus, which makes that a collapsible callout. The plus means that it is expanded by default. The minus means it is collapsed by default. So when you collapse it by default, you've got this colored box with your questions that potentially you could click the caret and then see them if you really wanted to tighten things up. That's the way you do it.
Adding to my OmniFocus right now, look into collapsible callouts.
Yeah, collapsible callouts are great. Callouts in general are great. That's all of the stuff on my daily note now is inside of those, those callouts. So I've got like the daily Bible reading plan, I've got my tasks, I've got my affirmations that I say every day, I've got my memento mori code snippet, I've got a a basis view of all the other daily notes from that particular day, kind of day one style. And they're all inside of those, those callouts. It's very rare that you can, that you find something that is not going to work inside of a callout. Like even the task queries. The thing is, if you're going to have those multi-line code blocks, you got to have the greater than sign and then a space for each line.
Okay.
Inside the callout. But if you're just doing, you know, text or bullets, It's really easy. Perfect for that.
I will have to explore that more. Mike just helped my daily note. Good work.
Gave you another action item too, I guess.
I know you did give me an action item, but we're not putting that in the action items. We're not putting that in the action items.
All right, cool. Uh, let's talk about today's book, which is The Science of Storytelling by Will Storr. This is an interesting book. It is based off of a, uh, Storytelling class. You've got a physical book in your hands.
I just wanted to make sure until you saw that. I was going to hold it up there until you saw it. I read a physical book again.
Okay.
So sorry.
It's a little bit shiny. It looks like maybe you got it from the library.
I, I, yeah, I love the library, right? We go to the library like 7 times a week. So I just look and say like, is the book at the library? And I check it out and then if it's worth it. So you have the philosophy of you buy it right away. I have the philosophy it has to earn its way into my house. Right. Both, both digitally and physically. Like, it's got to earn its way and then I will buy it. We just have different philosophies on this.
So, okay. I'm trying to become a library. I think we've got about 1,800 books in our house.
Yeah. The Mike Schmitz family library. Like, that's like, I mean, it's coming. You're going to donate all these to the Mike Schmitz family library. Yep.
Someday. Someday. So yeah, this is a book that is actually based on a science-based storytelling course. There is an introduction, there's an appendix at the end, which actually is, uh, like a specific sacred flaw approach that they talk about throughout the, the rest of the book. But there are really only 4 chapters.
Mm-hmm.
There's a whole bunch of like 1.0, 1.1, 1.2 sections, but there's a lot of those in each one of the chapters, and there's not enough in some of those to pull out ideas from every single one of them. That would actually probably make for like a 12-hour episode. So what we're going to do is we're going to break this down by chapter. The, the chapters basically contain all those, those points around central themes. So like chapter 1 is creating a world, chapter 2 is the flawed self, chapter 3 is the dramatic question, and then chapter 4 is plots, endings, and meaning. So they're grouped pretty nicely together. I guess you could have made these sections. It's a pretty dense book, I would argue, that covers a lot of ground. It is a lot of information, which if you are a writer is gonna be insanely valuable. I'm kind of curious what your first impressions of this book were when you picked it up.
Okay, so the first question I have is I wanna know your motivation for picking this book. Because like, okay, and here's the background context in case anybody's new. Mike really isn't known as being the fiction guy, right?
That is fair. That is fair.
We've worked on him and we've gotten him to start reading some fiction books, which he said he's enjoying, and we're doing okay on that. But like, this is about writing fiction. Now, he does talk about, I think at one point where he's interviewing or writing a, you know, ghostwriting a book for somebody about their real life. But this is primarily a book about writing fiction. So Mike, I'm interested in your motivation for why we're looking at a fiction writing book.
Yeah, well, it's, uh, The Science of Storytelling. I didn't really know it was a fiction writing book.
Okay, there we go. That's a good answer.
I, I— storytelling feels like a pretty broad topic.
Yeah.
And I think there's, there's some stuff that's useful here even if you're not trying to write a fiction book. But this is definitely from a fiction perspective. In fact, in the first section first chapter, the creating a world, you see a whole bunch of examples, one right after the other, of like famous first lines from different stories to illustrate the points that the author is making here. So yeah, I, I kind of thought it would be more along the lines of like Storyworthy by Matthew Dicks.
Mm-hmm.
But I don't think that that's a bad thing, that it wasn't exactly what I expected.
Okay, so then you and I came in on the same page. Like when I saw the title of this book, The Science of Storytelling, I did not think writing a fiction book. I thought telling interesting stories.
Yeah.
When I went to science, I also didn't think neuroscience, human psychology. Like I didn't think those things either. I thought like, oh, it's a very, very applied approach, a research approach to telling stories, yada, yada, yada. Like we've looked at all the stories that have been told and here are the— which he does some of that. But I did not think it was going to tie into like human psychology and neuroscience and all of these other things as much as it did. I don't think that's a negative necessarily. Like, I did not come out of this going like, oh man, guy really missed the mark on adding value, you know, from a storytelling standpoint.
Yeah.
It's just this is one of those books where I don't think the title tells you what's in the book. You know, like it's not a direct correlation.
Well, I could see that argument. I think it actually, I didn't really know what to expect, but I think it's pretty close to, I don't know, it's a little bit different angle, but I wouldn't say it's vastly different than what I anticipated. So, the only other Science of book that we've read is The Science of Scaling. There's way more science in this one.
Yeah. And I think that it's interesting, like the storytelling aspect here.
I don't think it just applies to writers, but that's obviously the, the context or the perspective that the author is coming from. And I was going into it hoping that it— okay, so first of all, this book was recommended to me by somebody, and I can't remember because I have that rule about when someone I respect recommends a book, you just buy it. So I bought it, and it's sitting on the shelf, and I'm like, oh, actually, that looks interesting. And And didn't really know what I was getting myself into, but was hoping that it would help me craft better stories and narratives around some of the creative writing projects that I do, whether that's YouTube scripts, big long newsletters. I do actually want to write a book, and there should be a story element, I think, with that. It's not just an information dump. So I just figured it would help me become a better internet communicator.
And I think that's true. Like, I don't, I don't think that's wrong after having read the book. I think, I think it will serve that purpose. I'm intrigued to hear if you thought it served that purpose when we get to the end, but like, I think it'll serve that purpose. So yeah, I mean, I like it. It's different than what I expected, but that's okay. Yep.
Well, there's only one way to find out, so let's dive in.
Yeah, let's dive in.
The first chapter or first section of the book is the introduction. This one's pretty short. And basically the argument for why storytelling is important is made here. Says that story is what makes us human. There's simply no way to understand the human world without stories, which is a pretty strong point to make, but I think it's probably accurate. Talks about how this book is based on that science-based storytelling course and starts to talk about why plot can never work in isolation. So we should really focus on character instead. That sort of sets up the first chapter. And there's one other thing which I found useful in this introduction, which is that knowing why the rules are the rules means we know how to break them intelligently and successfully. I think that is broadly applicable to just about anything. That's why you want to know what the rules are, so that you can figure out when and where you can, you can break them.
Yeah.
It's interesting because like when you're just starting out with something, like you don't want to— you're kind of maybe struggle with like, I got to figure all this stuff out before I actually get started. You don't want You know, to know that. But then once you do, just like put yourself out there and start making something. That's where the rules then come in, come in handy, I feel like. So it's not, you know, you got to figure all this stuff out before you would actually sit down and write anything. Start writing things. But then once you start writing things, that's where I feel like this approach really provides the most value. Do you agree?
Oh yeah. One of the things I thought was really cool about this book is how I immediately started to think through what I consider good stories and say like, are they doing this? Are they doing this? Are they doing this right? Like, so he makes a comment in this introduction, the challenge any of us face is to grab and hold the attention of people's brains. And I think like, oh man, I totally understand that because the number of things I start to do or the number of stories I start to be told and I'm like, okay, you lost me. Like, and I'm done. Like, will you ever get me back? Right? Kind of a thing. I I like it. The other one is, and Katie, like, so my wife makes fun of me about this, but it's like, I love stories. Like, I absolutely love stories. I, I tell a lot of stories. I like it when people tell me stories. Like, my chill-out downtime is a good story, whether it's through reading, whether it's through an audiobook, whether it's through watching a movie or a show or whatever it is. Like, I like to be immersed in the story world. And I've always been like that. 100% always been like that. So from a, does this book check out? And like, am I even engaged in what he's gonna start talking about? Like, he had me from, you know, from the intro. I was like, yeah, okay, like, this, this aligns with my thinking as well.
Nice. Yeah, I think you don't have to be a writer or someone who wants to write a book in order to benefit from that. I'm sure we'll talk about that as we go through. But if you're like kicking the tires on this episode, is this really for me? I would encourage you to, to stick with it. And I think actually even read this book. Spoiler alert, I guess. I think it's— there's a lot of stuff in here for people who just want to tell better stories, and that should be just about everybody, I think.
Yep.
All right, chapter 1.
Chapter 1, Creating a World.
Okay, so chapter 1 is, as Corey just alluded to, creating a world. In the introduction, we got encouraged to focus on our characters rather than the plot. I feel like there's a couple spiky points of view throughout the book. That's going to be one of them. And this is actually kind of tough to figure out what specifically we're going to talk about in each one of these chapters. So I'm just going to share, I think there's a couple lists of things, like in this one, it's the 4 ways to involve involuntarily induce curiosity in humans. So I'll kind of call out those, but then I have no idea where the conversation will actually end up going. So with creating a world, the big point he makes in the first section of this is that change is fascinating to our brains and that many stories begin with a moment of unexpected change. And the neuroscience part of this is kind of interesting because he talks about how when you experience a change, it registers as a surge of neural activity. So there's a natural inclination by the human brain to resolve these information gaps, even for questions of no importance. Anytime there's a change, it's like, well, how is this different? Why is this different? What, what about all of this, right? So if you're going to tell a good story, you should lean into that. And there's 4 ways to involuntarily induce curiosity in humans. So this is kind of interesting because I don't want to get into like the— for, I guess, like the, the 48 Laws of Power and even influenced by Robert Cialdini kind of is this area where some people just swear by those books. And I feel like the information that's in those books is actually really good, but there is a whole nother camp who's like, that's just manipulating humans. And I, I get where that they're coming from too. So when you read that, this is sort of what that feels like to me, is like involuntarily induced curiosity in humans. What if I don't want to be curious? But I think everybody is curious in some way. So really what this is, if I were to restate this, it's 4 ways to create open loops, and then you just let the brain do the rest. Okay, that maybe makes it a little bit more palatable. So first, you can pose a question or present a puzzle. Second, you can expose a sequence of events With an anticipated but unknown resolution. Third, you can violate expectations in a way that triggers a search for an explanation. Or fourth, you can make it clear that knowledge is possessed by someone else. I don't know specifically, like nothing when I read those jumped out to me, oh, I'm totally gonna apply this the next time I have to write, you know, that. But I think these are actually pretty useful. And I like the idea of triggering those Those open loops. I feel like this is broadly applicable, like I said, not just if you're trying to write a write a write a book. Like occasionally I get asked to preach at my church, and I feel like opening and curiosity it it would be valuable when you're starting a sermon. You know, just as an example of something that you wouldn't really think about being being influenced in a positive way by reading something like the science of storytelling, but is.
Yeah, I think this applies to so many different domains, right? And it's listed as psychology of curiosity. So you think about it in any situation, but I think about the way I use these in teaching classes, right? Or the way I use these in trying to talk to the boys, like my kids. And it's like, I can see myself using and applying these all over the place where you pose a question and they go, huh? Like, Okay guys, how would you start to whatever this is? And then they think of it as a puzzle and they think of it as a thing. So by no means, you had mentioned the 48 Laws of Power and those type of things. I got no negatives, no negative feeling out of this on any level because these are just a way for me to engage with somebody else. And where I think this is different a little bit, And I'm not putting words in your mouth saying that you said any different, but it's like where I think this is different is I often, as the receiver of the conversation or the receiver of the story, want to be curious as well. Like, I like— it's more fun if I'm curious. I don't feel like you're taking advantage of me. I don't feel like you're doing anything negative. It's like, oh no, like, this is— this is better if you instill curiosity and it's better for both of us. So no, I like these a lot. Like, I thought these were good and One of the things I think about is, okay, how can I incorporate more of these without being fake, artificial? Yeah, like that's where I think you go a little too far is when you like, you force it, if that makes sense. You know, like somebody starts out the presentation and they're like, here's this stat that's the most ridiculous stat ever and marginally aligns with the story I want to tell you. And it's like, come on, like you really forced that one.
Yeah, well, that actually gets into some of the other stuff at the end of this The section where he says, don't over-explain things or curiosity will be extinguished and readers will become bored.
Yep.
So essentially, that's one of the themes that happens throughout the book is you gotta figure out where the line is in terms of sharing and don't overshare. I think that's probably a trap I fall into fairly frequently because my logical analytical brain wants to connect all the dots. Like, oh, well, you need to know this and you need to know this and you need to know this. No, they don't need to know that. They need to feel a specific thing.
Yep.
And almost the more information that you share, it gets in the way. Uh, it kind of— you can make somebody feel something and it can, it can, uh, achieve your objective much better that they've had that feeling. And then like when you share information, Yes, maybe it's a little bit more accurate now. They have a little bit more context, but it sort of waters things down to a certain degree. So I got to figure out for myself like where that line is.
Okay. So I think this breaks at some point though, right? Yes. And here's what I mean. Have you seen Lost? Did you watch Lost?
Yeah.
Okay. So for anybody out there that's listening that didn't watch Lost, Lost is about a plane crash. These people were on this island. Does he mention it in this book?
He does. Yeah. He references Lost.
Okay.
Right. Because they're on this island. They don't know why there's this thing they got to keep resetting the timer on. Yeah.
Okay, so, um, I'm gonna, I'm gonna intentionally slow play the next like 10 seconds. If you don't want to hear about Lost and you don't want me to spoil Lost for you, fast forward. Fast forward right now. Please fast forward. Anyhow, Lost ends in a terrible way in my mind, and it's this idea of like, we didn't just water it down and give you all the details of like how everything resolved. And I'm like, no, that's the worst ending ever. So he says it here. He says it later in the book about like intentionally withholding things in the story helps people engage with the story and like drives them forward. And there is a breaking point in that, like without— clearly in my mind, there's a breaking point in that. Like, yes, withholding things for a period of time is valuable, but then there are certain things, daggone it, you don't withhold those things, right?
Yeah.
You need to tell the audience those things. So I mean, I'm just, you know, like, I think there's a balance here. And that's where this gets to the idea of, I found myself wanting to like put myself in the seat of somebody writing. You know, I'm writing a fiction book and I say, this is my manual. I'm gonna follow this manual to write my fiction book. And I thought to myself, yeah, but this stuff breaks down. Like, and this is where, you know, we've talked about it before, writing groups or mastermind groups or whatever it is where people can give you feedback.
Yeah.
And I think that's where like this as a guide, plus experienced and wise other people really come into play and like become very, very valuable. Because if I just followed this, it's really easy for me to do things wrong. But if I follow this and Mike, you're an experienced writer who also is thinking about these things and you come back to me and you're like, Corey, you took it too far. Like, you know, like it just doesn't work, you know, and an editor and those kind of things.
Yeah.
I think it's a balance.
So, and that's why we have a book that shares everything that's in the course. Yeah. I mean, this is a— there's a lot of valuable stuff in here, but to your point, you can't just know that and then you're done. This is not a knowledge problem. It's an implementation problem.
Yeah, absolutely. I'm curious of what you thought. So he states at one point here, vividness and immersion. require, and then he lists 4 things. I'm guessing you outlined these 4 as well, but—
I did not.
Okay.
So at least not this section.
3 specific details about a thing that you evoke the senses, that you name and create things, and then that things get unpredictable. And he said those are what make vividness and immersion in. And I'm curious at what you think about, like, do any of those stand out to you? We like— I think about vividness, I think about immersion, like, and I like the idea of immersion better than vividness really. But it's like, how do I get lost in the story? Is it the details? Is it the senses? Is it the naming and creating? Or is it the unpredictableness? Do any of those stand out to you when you're reading a fiction?
It's all of the above, I think.
Okay.
Like one of the examples that he mentions later in terms of the, like, getting involved in the, the story is you want to feel like you're part of the world even if you don't understand all of the, the things that they're talking about. So for example, in Star Wars, when, uh, Luke sees the Millennium Falcon, he's like, what a piece of junk. And Han Solo's like, it ran— it made the, the Kessel Run in, in 12 parsecs or whatever. Like, what the heck is a parsec? What the heck is the Kessel Run? You don't know, but like, obviously you understand the way that he's explaining it. Like, no, actually it's, it's a fast ship and it did this impressive thing. So that kind of gets into, I think, maybe the idea of metaphor in this first section, where he actually says metaphor is the dominant way we understand abstract concepts. But then also, the more familiar the metaphor is, the less effective it is.
I know, that was, that was surprising to me.
Yeah, so I thought about that with that Star Wars example. Like, yeah, well, if it did it and, you know, and 23 minutes. Okay, now I have context for how long it actually took. I still have no idea what it is. And the more details that you put around that, the less impressive it becomes, because we want to get immersed in that, that world. We want to understand what the Kessel Run is. We want to understand what a parsec is, or all the other, you know, monetary terms they use in Star Wars.
And think, and think about what this does, right? Like, this creates all of your fanfiction, your wikis, All of these things. And it's like, if there is no better form of immersion to me than when I go, what the heck is a parsec? And then like go on to, you know, the online. And next thing you know, I've lost an hour and a half of my life trying to like, you know, after I've read all the debates about what people think a parsec is, right? Like, you know, or what unit of time it is. And it's explained in this canon 7 books away or whatever it is.
Yeah. I was actually thinking a lot about like the best version of this. And I think probably the best version that I can possibly think of is something like The Lord of the Rings, right? Where there are all of these different races, there's all these different languages. Like, Toby will, will probably cringe as he hears me talk about this because he knows way more about it than I do. But, uh, my understanding, J.R.R. Tolkien like created these languages. For The Lord of the Rings and doesn't share all of the details about why the languages are the way that they are. You just encounter the languages throughout the, the story. Like, the lore is there, I guess, if you really want to dig into it, but the effectiveness of the, the story itself is that he doesn't share all that stuff. He put in all the work and then doesn't share it. That feels like that would be really hard for me to do.
Yeah. And you end up getting it. So mine, mine is because of my generation and like kind of when I grew up, mine's the Harry Potter series. Well, it's the exact same thing, right? Like there's so much backstory that isn't expressed in, in the canonical, you know, books that everybody thinks about as the Harry Potter series. So what do you do then? You've got these extra supplemental books that were made after the fact or as part of it. And the same thing with Lord of the Rings, right? I mean, there's these extra maps and these extra atlases and describing these different things.
And Toby has them all.
Yep, exactly. Okay, so I'm going to move us to the next point that comes out of this first chapter is this idea of cause and effect. And I resonated with this idea, but basically he says you should show it rather than tell it. Like, and actually help people see or experience, I guess, if you will, is probably a better word, experience like this happened because of this, this happened because of this. So he later on, he's going to describe this, you know, when he talks about the flawed character, this origin story that causes the flaw. So like the effect is the flaw, and then there's this origin story that causes the— and if you can show the reader that thing, but he says, you know, this cause and effect idea is what essentially will drive the story forward and keep things moving. And I thought that was a really, really good, good point that I can see when I think through a lot of stories that I've, that I've read and enjoyed.
Yeah. And it kind of sets up the next section. So you ready to go there?
I am. Yeah.
Okay. So chapter 2 is The Flawed Self. And the, the main point here is that who we are is how we're broken. Nobody's ever right about everything, so if you're gonna have an awesome character in your story, they have to have some flaws.
Mm-hmm.
And to your point, the, the origin of those flaws is, is important. Actually, that gets called out in the appendix, the sacred flaw approach specifically. What do they call that?
The—
they call that The— not the dramatic question. I forget.
Origin Damage?
Yeah, yeah, that's it.
Yeah, Origin Damage.
So when it comes to The Flawed Self though, um, there's 5 big personality traits and there's kind of high and low on each of these. And they give examples of, uh, real characters from real stories that fit all these. There's neuroticism, there's extroversion, openness, agreeableness, and conscientiousness. I— this part, honestly, like, I've not really done any sort of character development. The closest I get is like ideal customer profile.
Same. Yeah, I'm in the same boat. Like, I've not developed any characters. No.
But I think this is fascinating. I, I kind of don't know how this benefits the work that I do right now, but I'm sure it does. One of the things that stands out to me from this is the fact that storytellers can show personality of their characters in almost everything that they do. So if I am using story in my videos or the book that I'm writing, all that kind of stuff, I have to be pretty intentional about the details that I'm actually going to share.
Mm-hmm.
It can't just be, I did this, or the person did this and then did this and then did this. They actually talked about that in this first section, that your scenes should have a because between them, not an and then.
Mm-hmm.
So I think that's the big takeaway for me is all those details that you're gonna share, there should be like a through line and you should be able to see looking back why those details were shared that way. And then also I think with this, a big point is that there's a difference between Western culture and Eastern culture in terms of what, what the character is supposed to, to do by the, the end of the, the story.
Mm-hmm.
Our brain is trying to figure out what comes next, and it does that by building these mental models.
Mm-hmm.
At some point, our brain goes from a model builder to a model defender, and that's where the cultural stuff comes in. So like the Western culture, we've got this individualistic individualist propaganda, the rugged, you know, American individualism. I can do it on my own, you know, rags to riches, all that kind of stuff. But in Eastern tales, they don't actually give you an answer at the end of the story. You just have to kind of decide what happens from there by yourself, which I can, I can totally see how that makes— that would make me, just based on the culture that I live in, a little bit uncomfortable. So yeah, we, we make up our our minds about whether this is right or wrong. We make up memories of events that never happened. Uh, we've got this hero maker bias they talk about where we try to justify everything. Um, and then meaning is created by the right change event happening to the right person at the right moment. It's interesting, you know, just from, from the starting to, to move in this direction in this section, but it's really not the focus where he talks later on in the book about meaning and purpose and all that kind of stuff. And obviously that's a big thing with what I do with the life theme stuff, your personal mission statement, personal core values, stuff like that. I've actually encountered a lot of material lately, read some books where it's kind of pushing back against that idea, sort of like everything is meaningless. And he's basically saying like, no, actually it's really important, which I kind of like. Even if it is from a fictional storytelling perspective.
Yeah.
The fact that these are the narratives tell. And he makes the point that we're all fictional, fictional characters. The world that we live in is made up. The pain that we experience, it's not actually pain, it's just our brain telling us it's pain. The colors that we see, like, nothing has color in the essence of the atom. That's just how our brain interprets it. So I don't know, kind of, kind of interesting, but also no big, uh, solid, like, this is what I'm gonna do with this.
Yeah, this is— this chapter There's a couple different ways where he and I diverge in our thinking. So first, you described it at some level. I'm not thinking in terms of novel, fiction novel writing. So therefore, the idea of like, okay, this person's got a flaw and then we're going to develop that flaw and we're going to wrestle around with that flaw for the next couple hundred pages. I'm thinking more of like, Okay, this story is gonna last a max of like 3 minutes and I'm going to use it for some other utility, right? Like it's not just entertainment, it's like to communicate a message, teach a point, sell a product, whatever it might be. Like that's where my brain's at. So I had to go, okay, hold on, this flawed self thing, like I think of it mostly as like a pain point. Like the flaw is you are trying to do a thing but you're doing it the wrong way. There's this flaw. Now, the other one that came out of this to me, and it's here and in the appendix, is my inherent gut reaction goes to, it's a moral flaw within the character.
Hmm.
And he calls out, no, it does not have to be a moral flaw within the character. It is a flaw in the character's thinking or a moral flaw. So it's kind of this, don't think it has to be this one thing. But my my brain immediately goes to it's a moral flaw in the character. And then here, here's the second part. So I said that the form of the story is very different between him and me. All of his examples are like heady academic English and British literature and like, you know, all this stuff. And here I am thinking like Marvel superhero, you know, this type of thing, this type of thing. So it's like I'm seeing all the same things he is, but I'm using none of the like Lawrence of Arabia example or Citizen Kane or all this stuff. Like, this guy is operating at a significantly different level of literature than I would even think about operating at. So I think that's—
Points could be the same though, right?
Oh, they're absolutely the same.
Yeah. Yeah. Okay.
Yeah. Think about every, think about every Marvel superhero. Like they've got some flaw either in their thinking or in their person. And therefore we develop an entire story around that. I mean, Iron Man, like, my goodness, like, The entire Iron Man saga is Tony Stark trying to get out of his own way as this flawed genius or whatever, and we're trying to understand his backstory. So I think that's really, really cool. But then I think he hits some points here that are incredibly, incredibly spot on from the psychology and science and sociology literature. This idea of play and storytelling are essential to our culture. I mean, I've got young kids right now, Mike. You do too, right? Like most of what they do and the way they understand the world is through play and storytelling. So like they'll start to play, and really what they're looking for is like, is this character that I'm playing right now doing things the right way? Like you know, Daddy, would you correct? Would you correct this character? Would you like give this character any feedback? Or like so and so was so and so, and they jumped out of a plane. Blah blah blah blah. And I'm like, oh, you wouldn't want to do that because blah blah blah. And they're learning about culture that way. Like they're learning about how to interact. with the world that way. And I just think that's like spot on. And I think we still are doing that. Like, I think no matter how old we get, we just do it or we try to do it, like I should say, in more sophisticated forms. So instead of us creating an imaginary character that's going to go do all these other things, we read books and we try to analyze the fiction books. We watch movies and we try to analyze those things. The last one I'll say, and then I'll stop, I'll get off my soapbox. But it's like the last one is this theory of control, this idea of theory of control.
Yeah.
I can't remember if he introduced it in the last chapter or this chapter, but he talks about it here again. And it's basically like, what level of control do I have? What level of control do I want? What level of control do I expect? And then how is my flawed thinking or my flawed moral character impacting that level of control? And then how am I being pushed and not pushed and challenged and not challenged? And I just think this idea of like, control within characters and yourself and all these other things. I think it's a really like cool idea that drives a story, drives a story forward, whether it's a big story or a small story. I don't really care on that level. Like it can be a 100-page story or a 2-minute video. And I think that's a, that's a cool idea.
Yeah. So the thing that you're, you're hitting at there with the element of control, essentially a good story— he mentions this at the beginning of this section— Is where you identify and accept your flaws, then you change who you are, meaning the protagonist or the character. But to do that means breaking down the very structure of our reality before rebuilding it. So that can be really scary when you have no idea how it's going to turn out, but those are also the best stories. The other thing that really stood out to me from this section, and it sort of clicked as you were talking through things, is that the events don't matter if there isn't a character attached to them. And that one I feel like has immediate application for me. When I read that just now, I was thinking about the book I read not too long ago, Ghost Town Living by Brent Underwood.
Mm-hmm.
Literally a guy who bought this ghost town and is trying to, to fix it up, essentially make it like a tourist place. Like it had this old historic hotel. But the thing that makes that book interesting is not that he is rehabbing this ghost town, it's that he tells all of these stories about these interactions that he had with people who were local to the area who didn't trust him at the beginning.
Yeah.
And he had to show up, get up early, work late, do the work. They had to believe that he was really interested in improving that town. Even though there's nobody that that lives there, and he's not gonna just like blow everything up and oh there goes the neighborhood. You know because they've lived there in their families for hundreds of years, and they want everything preserved the the way it was. So the situations that he gets into and the conversations that he has with these these crazy people who live on the land, you know that's what made that book fascinating. You take him out of that, you take those stories out of that, and it's just the the lessons he's trying to communicate. Or historically, you know, this— the hotel, which is the reason why he bought the town, burned down, you know, shortly after he bought it, and then he rebuilt it. Like, that's boring. But when he tells the details about how he's aching from the previous day's work, and then he wakes up early to the smell of smoke, and he's like— heart jumps up in his chest, and he runs out there. And yeah, like That is what makes that book.
Absolutely.
And that's where I feel like I can, I can benefit from taking this approach. I don't know how you necessarily translate, because there is like the long arc emphasis in a lot of this stuff. The next section, or maybe it's the last section, talks about like the standard 5-act structure. You know, you, you can't do that when you've got 3 minutes to tell the story. Maybe you can, maybe he'd push back on that, I don't know.
But well, I think it does take a different approach and there's probably a better book for that, right? There's probably a better course or book or something for, for that one. But if you're ready, I'm ready to go to chapter 3. Yep.
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Who am I? I think is what it is.
Exactly, who am I? Which again, like, this just reinforces his whole point about the character is the thing that matters, not the plot. But once he says that, that really does make it click, and you start to think about all of the, the good stories that you've, you've heard in the movies that you liked and the books that you've read, like That was this character trying to figure out and break the social norms and all that kind of stuff.
Okay, play along. What's the first one? When you say like the who am I and you think about it in story, what's the first story you think of where you're like, somebody's asking who am I? I'm putting you on the spot.
Well, okay, so the one that stood out to me, but it's recency bias, I'm reading Red Rising, right?
Okay.
Or I read Red Rising. I'm now on the— I'm about to start second one. I think it's Golden Son. But Red Rising is about this character who's like the lowest of the low in the caste system, and they believe that they're gonna— he's gonna be the one, you know, turn everything around, sort of like Neo with The Matrix.
Yep.
And the whole story is them figuring out where their limits are. And that's fascinating.
Mine, mine, I told you this before, like the Harry Potter series, right? Like I love the Harry Potter series and that's what he's trying to do. Like Harry Potter's trying to figure out who is he? Like, who am I? Like, like I, and he's got this flawed origin story and all this stuff. Like it's, It's directly related to the way he's describing all of this stuff. And it's, it's just fun. Like, it's, it's interesting to see how spot on he was in a lot of ways.
Yeah. And this section about this dramatic question, really the point is that the narrator is supposed to help people figure this stuff out. Right. And you're telling these, these stories. One of the things that he mentions is facts, while nice, are optional for the telling of the story.
Yep.
Yep. Yeah, I'm not sure how I feel about that because I tend to want all the facts, but I mean, it makes, makes sense. Plot develops as characters try to control things and can't, and as models fracture and break down, previously repressed wills become more dominant. So there's a whole bunch of like drama that's created here by the struggle for the control that, that you were, you were talking about.
Mm-hmm.
It talks about the 2 wired-in ambitions that people have to get along with people and to get ahead of people, and how sometimes those can be at odds. And that specifically, when I read this, I thought of Red Rising, because the whole idea behind Red Rising— spoiling alert, spoiler alert, I guess— this guy, you know, gets thrown into this academy for the elites where it's basically Hunger Games.
Mm-hmm.
And they break up into these tribes and they're trying to survive. And like, who's the leader of this tribe? But also your tribe has to battle all the other tribes, so Who's gonna actually win? Yeah, I'll stop there. But I remember reading this section. It's like they just followed the formula.
Yeah, exactly. But it worked. When he addresses that later, like you can't just follow the formula. But then I'm reading this book thinking about all of the stories that I know of that have just followed this formula.
Like they are true.
They seem or they seemingly have just followed this formula. So. I'm kind of torn on that. Like, if I'm being real honest with you, it's like, well, does the formula work?
I don't know.
Like, how much in the background did they— like, did they mess with the formula? I don't really know kind of how that works.
I think there's probably some confirmation bias because there's a lot of points that are in here which when you hear them and you're thinking about a specific story, you can be like, oh yeah, I see how they did that. Like, one of the things that they mention is that nothing is likely to make a person more mad than the removal of their status. So again, Red Rising is the example. I'm the leader. I'm no longer the leader. Who's with me? Yada yada yada. Yep. And and like you can cherry pick examples and be like, oh, I see how they applied this. But when you're starting from scratch, I think it I think of it more as like a paint palette. You've got these different things that you can you can use, and yeah, you're not going to use all of them. You may use most of them. You may combine them in in different and interesting ways. But yeah, um, the end of a perfect story, he says, a hero or a heroine must represent the coming together of 4 virtues: strength, order, feeling, and understanding. What do you think about that?
Hmm, this one didn't stand out to me. So like, as you say this, I was like, I don't really remember, remember that section. So say it again. As a— the hero must do what?
Uh, has to— the, the— at the end of a perfect story, the hero, the hero's transformation must represent a coming together of 4 virtues: strength, order, feeling, and understanding. But there's also, you know, mentioned the Eastern tales that don't give you the answer. So I don't know exactly if this is from a Western perspective that we want these 4 virtues to come together, or maybe there's a— I think I can see how this would get applied in other cultures as well. But, and I don't think, you know, it has to be, I am the strongest, things are now under my control, I feel good about things, and I completely understand things. It's just Those questions about how strong am I? Yeah. What's the order of things? That's actually what gets answered by the—
So that actually makes a lot more sense to me. Like before, that didn't really resonate with me when you said it at the very end is like, if I tie it to the most essential question, like the who am I? Well, who am I from a strength standpoint? Who am I from a what's the order of the world and where do I stand in it status standpoint? Like that all makes sense to me is like the, the character, which he would say it drives the entire story. is trying to figure those things out where I would go. And I kind of do that just off the, off the cuff is, are those the only 4 or are there other ones that could swap in and out and still make a really, really good story? I think my gut would say there are, there are others that could swap in and out that could make a good story, but not that those 4 are bad. It's just that I think there are others that probably could. Those might be the most common. Maybe, but I don't remember that, that section at all. So that's— that didn't stand out to me when I was reading.
I think those 4 virtues are probably accurate. Um, maybe there are some other ones that you can insert in there, but I don't know, that feels right to me that those are the ones that you should be thinking about if you're trying to wrap up your, your story. You have to kind of have an idea of what that transformation is going to look like. By the end.
Yeah, I got, I got one for us in this chapter.
Go for it.
So he refers to Brian Little, who's a, who's a professor and psychologist, and he says all individuals are essentially scientists erecting and testing their hypothesis about the world and revising them in light of experience, of their experience. And I think about this and I think about it in relation to storytelling. Like, those are that— like, that makes sense. Like, this is what we're trying to do is like, I'm making a hypothesis about the way the world works. And then I'm going to test that and then I'm going to revise. And this is where we get into mental models and we get into like so many other concepts that we've, we've talked about is like I'm constantly developing a mental model, testing the mental model, revising the mental model. Right. And, and he describes it, you know, as hypotheses. Well, I think throw a mental model in there, but then like the stories that I think I resonate the most with, I bet you if I went back and looked at them, the same thing is happening. The character has a mental model. They test that mental model and then they figure out whether or not that's true. So whether it's a love story where they're testing like, I have a mental model that like this person feels the same way about me as I do about them.
Yeah.
They, they test that and we're like, you know, like it either goes well or it doesn't. Or I have the mental model that I'm the best runner in the high school. And then I go and I test that model and I find out that I either am or I'm not, you know, like I think that really checks out in terms of the reason why those stories work so well and that concept works so well is because that's really what we're trying to do all the time as humans. Like, we're trying to test those mental models and we're trying to get to— and I'm putting in air quotes for anybody that's not watching— we're trying to get to the best mental model.
Yeah.
And it's like, is there one or are the mental models just going to evolve until we die? And that's okay. Like, that's what they're supposed to do. They're supposed to continually just adapt and adapt and adapt and get closer closer to, you know, a true understanding of reality or truth or whatever. Like, I, I just really liked that part of this chapter.
Yeah, to that point, there is a phrase that he uses here: in life, the dramatic question of who we are never has a final and fulfilling answer, but that is the journey for as long as you are on this earth.
What do you think about— what do you think about dialogue? So he talks about meaningful words and he talks about dialogue between the characters. Do you think— I'm going to give it as a binary, but you don't have to answer it as a binary. Do you think like dialogue really drives a story forward for you, or does dialogue just something that happens? Like, how do you think about dialogue?
Great question. I think it generally drives the story forward. However, the The example that comes to mind for me is WALL-E, where like the first 50 minutes of the movie there's not a word that is spoken.
Yeah, essentially the boys wanted nothing to do with that because there wasn't a word spoken for the first long time of that movie.
Yeah, exactly. Our young kids were the same way. Now they all love it, you know. And, uh, yeah, I think that's, that's really a fascinating approach to telling the story. So I think the point maybe they were making with WALL-E is that you don't need to rely on that. Maybe in some ways people rely on it too much and it ends up being a little bit of a crutch that you can lean on. It's like, well, we gotta insert dialogue here. I think— I don't know. I think my general approach, my general takeaway from this would be use dialogue when absolutely necessary, but look to communicate things other ways, whether it's internal, like this is what I'm thinking through the character. When they talked about dialogue, and you mentioned the words that characters speak should both sound true and writhe with meaning, so every word that comes out of a character's mouth, not just the protagonist, I feel like really has to mean something.
Mm-hmm.
And then he talks about gossip and that being society's way of policing people morally, even when there isn't a police force to do that kind of thing. I, I don't know. Maybe it's just the types of stories that I tell where there's not a whole lot of dialogue that, that happens, uh, happens there. So maybe I just kind of skipped over that part, um, a little bit.
Did you ever watch The West Wing?
I did not, no.
So this is the one that pops into my head where normally dialogue is like not the most important thing, you know? Like, I know that it's telling me stuff about the story and like it's people, but I don't like call it out. It might just be because it's so natural. Like, I don't call it out as like, oh, you know, that dialogue was incredible. But there have been a few shows where like the show is all about the dialogue. Like the story is all about the dialogue. And like that's 100% of the driver of the show. The West Wing is a show about the White House. And I forget when it came out, the early 2000s, something like that. I can't remember when it was, but like the way it was written and the dialogue between the characters was so fast and sharp and like back and forth that like it just completely drove the show. And he talks about this idea of time compression and like you see that in, in that storytelling to where it's like you kind of just forgot where you are and everybody's talking so fast and making these points and they're going so hard at it that you're just like, oh my gosh, like what just happened? Like, holy cow, like what just happened? So that was, that was the example that popped into my brain of like a time when I remember dialogue being super, super, um, like valuable into a story.
Yeah.
But then to get to your gossip point, like, I, I completely, uh, I agree with his point that like that is a large driver of why we will or won't do certain things. And for better or worse, I think about like high school, you know, like, oh man, like, why aren't you gonna do that thing? Because everybody's gonna talk about it on Monday. And I don't want them to talk about that thing on Monday. So therefore, and it's like, that's just the— that's a way that we control, you know, like people. And that's a way that we control the culture, if you will. So.
I've got a follow-up question for you on that, but actually I need the next chapter as context. So if you're ready, let's go to chapter 4.
Let's do it.
All right. So chapter 4 is Plots, Endings, and Meaning. And this is where we find out about the standard 5-act structure. Act 1, this is me and it isn't working. Act 2, is there another way? Act 3, there is, I have transformed. Act 4, but I can handle— but can I handle the pain of change? And Act 5 is, who am I going to be? So that's kind of like the structure that a good story would follow. And to your point about dialogue moving things forward and it being effective, The example that came to mind as I was reading these last 2 sections is the Disney cartoon Phineas and Ferb, which is fascinating to me. I'm not sure if you've ever seen this. Have you seen this show?
I know of it. I can picture the characters in my head, but I've never watched a full episode of it.
Okay, so here's the thing that's interesting about Phineas and Ferb. It's, I don't know, hundreds of episodes.
Okay.
Premise of the show is exactly the same every single time.
Okay.
They like use specific things over and over and over again. So the, you know, it's 100— there's 100 and some days of summer vacation, and basically every episode is like, what are we gonna do today? And then there are certain plot elements that happen every single episode. They decide they're gonna do something, and then the Perry the Platypus is no longer there, so there's a line in every episode, hey, where's Perry? You know, and then there's a character Isabella who shows up and she's like, whatcha doing? There's a bad guy, Dr. Doofenshmirtz. Like, the plot is exactly the same. They build some crazy contraption, the older sister tries to bust them, Dr. Doofenshmirtz tries to take over the tri-state area, Perry the Platypus saves the day, and Comes back, you know, everything gets reset to normal basically at the end. And it's like one of the best cartoons that I've ever seen. Like, it's consistently— if you look at, you know, and these are obviously subjective ratings, but if you look at like lists of top cartoons, you know, Phineas and Ferb is, is up there. And I think one of the things that makes it so appealing to people is the fact that it kind of like pushes back against all this structural stuff. So going back to the beginning, like when to, when to break the rules, they've literally built a show about breaking all of the rules.
Well, and then think about too, like the sitcoms and stuff where like, okay, the procedural dramas. There we go. Like I was trying to figure out what the phrase was, but like the CSI whatever, or, you know, the Law and Order or whatever. Sure. They are the exact same. Like they're the adult version of Phineas and Ferb. Like the whole thing you're describing to me is like the adult version of that. What's going to happen? We're going to start off with some shocking thing.
That's true.
We're going to investigate it for 23 minutes. And then in minute 24, we're going to have the big reveal. But then even like action movies, they're the exact same way. Like, so I don't know what— I don't know what my main point is here, but my main point is we are incredibly like predictable people who want the same thing over and over and over again. And we've proven it with our attention and our time and our dollars. Like, like we've proven this.
Yeah, people.
Yeah.
I guess the thing that makes— again, Phineas and Ferb is the one that stands out to me, but the, the archetypal ending that they talk about in this section, basically the perfect archetypal ending reassures us that despite all the chaos and sadness and struggle that fill our lives, there is control. And in one sense, it's— there isn't control because Because there's, there's certain quote-unquote main characters that, you know, never are able to get what they want. But in the middle of the episode, the thing that I think makes it work is there's so much going on and there is just so much chaos.
Yeah, yeah.
And then it all gets resolved by the end. And that's sort of what makes these 20-minute episodes so fascinating, is like, okay, they went some crazy directions and How in the world is this going to be reset to normal? I don't know. It's interesting though, like the plots, endings, and meanings. That's the whole last section. I think that's kind of interesting that the whole, you know, 25% of this book is really about like, how do you tie all this stuff together? But then, you know, they give you some structures and things like that. But essentially, I don't— I think this is the one where maybe there's the least amount of formula. Possible.
Yeah, this book does a— oh, it's got me in a confused place. I don't know if confused is the right word, but like I'm mixed up not being somebody who writes long-form stories, you know, and has practiced this art or whatever, because he's throwing things out there almost like, this is the formula, follow the formula, this is the formula, follow the formula. But then on the other side, he's like, he's going, but It's not just a formula. So therefore, like, you can't just follow the formula. Like, there are tweaks and there are things. And it's like, it really goes with the idea of there is— there are the people who can just write a story. Then there are the people who write the, like, you know, lightning in a bottle, just absolutely, like, take the world by storm story. And that's the difference between the novice and the master.
Hmm.
And it's the difference between the people who, like, figure out the way to take the formula stuff and like tweak it in the right ways and accentuate this piece. And then part of that's probably culture, part of that's probably timing, part of that's probably luck. But like, I think about, you know, the 5-act story. Okay, cool. We got that. We get that as a formulaic thing. I think about crisis, struggle, resolution. You know, we've got that as like a formulaic kind of a thing. Like there's all these like formulaic pieces that he's throwing out there. And then I look at those and I think, yeah, but if I'm going to write a fiction story, I can't just follow the formula. I mean, I know I could for a rough outline of the story, but then it's gotta get good. Then it's gotta, you gotta do something to it. And that's where he's probably like, come take my class. And that's what I'll do is like, come take my class, which I totally get. One of the concepts that came out of chapter 4 that I thought was cool is, and I'm probably gonna say it wrong, eudaimonia. I'm gonna say eudaimonia.
I'm familiar with that.
Striving after a noble goal, living in a way that fulfills our purpose. And then the hero's journey or the hero's quest is the way I captured that last, that last bullet point.
Yeah.
But it's this idea of like, I like stories that give us a purpose, that give us a goal, that like it's clear to see, like this is the task that we're going to do. And I can probably forgive a lot of chaos in the middle there. Knowing that there's a goal at the end that we're going to think about. So you get back into your Phineas and Ferb thing, right? Like, I can go through that entire chaotic, like, what on earth is happening? Oh my gosh. Like, this is crazy. And then boom, there's going to be a resolution. And I know there's going to be a resolution. I don't like stories and I get so bothered by the ones where it's like chaos, chaos, chaos, chaos, chaos. And then we kind of just drift away like chaotic and like we never reach the goal and like nothing ever happened.
Yeah.
And I don't know what that says about my personality, but like this first section really, really hit home with me with this eudaimonia thing where it's like, yeah, and that's— we need to accomplish that goal.
That's the thing with Phineas and Ferb is like things are crazy. And then the minute that Candace like gets her mom like, Mom, Mom, Mom, come see, you know, what Phineas and Ferb are doing. By the time they get to the backyard, everything is normal.
Everything's normal. Yeah.
Yep.
I also like— I guess I have another one. I also like this idea of transportation and like being lost in the world, right? When we're transported, our beliefs, attitudes, and intentions are vulnerable to being altered, right? Like this idea of essentially escape. But like, I don't mean it in the negative way. Like a lot of times we talk about like escaping into the story as like a way to get out of reality. And I don't mean it in that way. I mean it as in like getting immersed, getting captured, getting transported into this world. And this is like something along the lines of, you know, it's not this big novel type story that he's describing here. It's much more of like a Dungeons and Dragons campaign.
Hmm.
Like, I totally understand how people play Dungeons and Dragons. I totally understand how people get lost in video games that have these immersive worlds that you're telling the story and you've got this goal and you're, you're essentially transported into that world. And then I can totally even see how people get lost in those worlds. Right. And they lose this sense of reality. And, you know, we talked about it a couple of weeks ago. You talked about reading Ready Player One. Like, that is actually a scary thing in my mind. If we get too immersive, that like, I think we are naturally prone to want to be transported into these worlds, want to be lost in these worlds. And if we get too immersive, like in Ready Player One, I think there's a really good chance that like reality becomes less interesting than the immersive world. And we, we kind of check out of reality. So it's like that. I mean, not to get too like heady or too philosophical, but like that, that's what comes out of all this, you know, this, this kind of last meaning, you know, plot and meaning part of it for me is we got to be careful about what we do. But it's so powerful. Like we have the ability to be so powerful in this.
Well, the thing for me with this is, um, like applying this to your everyday life, because it mentions that what we see and feel at any given moment depends on what we're trying to get. The hero-making brain wants to feel like we're constantly moving towards something better, and goal direction is what gives story much of its tension and thrill. So as it pertains to like the life theme stuff that we're doing, which I guess I should have mentioned at the beginning, we've got a Life Theme cohort that is going to be kicking off in April. So I'll put the link to that in the show notes if it's available by the time this goes live. But that's basically about crafting the story that you want to be told about your life. So I think a lot of the principles are the same. It's really just—
Yeah.
How are they being applied? I think it's actually—I don't know. On the one hand, to to compare your real life with a fictional story feels like you're devaluing it. But also, on the other hand, I feel like it actually can do a lot of good to think about it that way, and in some ways it it enriches it. You know, when you talk about. The meaning that you apply to things being subjective, I guess, that can make you feel a little bit uncomfortable if you've seen things as black and white forever and you feel like your perspective is the single source of truth in the world. But going back to like the liminal thinking model presented by Dave Gray back in the day where you've got your experience, which is a fraction of reality, and on top of that your focused attention is what you build all your judgments, beliefs, and opinions on top of, and then you surround yourself with people who look like you, talk like you, think like you.
Yeah.
Create this bubble of belief that just reinforces these preconceived notions. When you think about that, like, you have the ability and the power to change that at any point. That's Kind of exciting and a pretty powerful idea.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
All right, go to the appendix.
Let's do it.
Which is really not an appendix like we typically think of appendices. Yeah, it's, uh, it's the approach. It's the sacred flaw approach.
I don't— like, I, I, I can kind of understand why he called it an appendix, but I don't think he did himself justice calling it an appendix. Like, he, he should have named it something different because It's really like a primer, you know. It's like the Sacred Flaw primer, if you will, you know. I mean, I, I just— it's not a, you know, hill to die on, but at the same time, I think he did himself a disservice a little bit calling it an appendix.
Well, I get why it's there, I think, because, uh, everything in the chapters 1 through 4 fits very neatly into these different buckets. There's an alternate world where that— those first 4 chapters, which is really most of the book, that is part 1. And part 2 is, here's how you tie all this together using my system.
Yep.
But, and that really does need to be there for a book, I feel. So I think it's pretty clear that didn't want to do that, wanted to keep it tight.
Mm-hmm.
And so just packaged it all into an appendix. He walks through the different steps and he references different points in the other chapters without going into all the crazy detail in the appendix, which I think is actually kind of cool. So basically you go through everything and then this is sort of like a review session before you would actually try to implement that. But there's still some good stuff in here.
And it's not like he didn't have enough content in the first 4 chapters, right? Like, I mean, he's got 200 pages of what I think is good content in the first 4 chapters. So I, your point is well made in terms of this. This sits as an appendix. I do agree with you though, that like if you didn't have this in here, I think the book is significantly different. Like, I think the book is lacking. I think this really rounds out that book. And I really like the way you just described it to where like, this is the next thing before you go off and launch into doing this and using all the stuff we've talked about over the last 200+ pages.
Yeah. And, you know, if you're wanting a resource which just talks you through the approach that's taught in the class, you can point to this specific section of the book and it contains everything. So it's It's effective that way. There's still some good stuff in here though. So like essentially it's walking through the different steps. There isn't a very clear like these are the 12 steps sort of a thing. I don't know how to try and summarize this really. It's figuring out what the dramatic question is for your character, figuring out what that origin damage story is. You identify their personality traits, you identify their hero maker moment, you identify their point of view, you figure out how their flaw influences their world, the story event, and the plot. You kind of like work backwards from that character and the flaw that they have. So that's like, I guess, how you summarize it. But one of the things that I thought was interesting here was how has their flaw influenced the world? That was something that stood out to me that I didn't really catch in the content of the, the chapters itself, because there's a whole bunch of questions which I think can actually work pretty effectively as a checklist for this sort of a thing. Like, how has their flaw led to material or career gains? How do they get a sense of status from this flaw? How does it make them feel superior? What small moments of joy does it bring them? How has a sacred flaw brought them closeness with friends, colleagues, or lovers? What life goals has it generated? What achievement in the external world? All these kinds of things, which I don't know about you, but generally I think if I were to craft a character for a story, I might not go that deep. I think these are great questions. To help provide some some context there, and he does address in this section, by the way, the difference between like a a dead average character and like a really effective character. And he he says that the the moment that you know you've got a character is when they like lurch to life. Is that how he said it? Oh, you'll know you have a character or when you feel your character lurch alive. Which that is a very descriptive way of, of, of putting it. It's not like, well, I'm starting to understand them a little bit better. It's like, no, they were, they were dead and lifeless previous to this. Now I've got something. So that feels like a very significant moment. But you have to kind of put in all of this work into the details in order to, to get that payoff, I think.
Yeah. Yeah. I think I, I would tell people if they're wanting to be a fiction writer, and they're thinking about, you know, what's a guide for helping me think through some things, I think I'd point them to this book for sure. And I'd say like, hey, look at this, maybe start with the appendix, see if that resonates with you. But like, don't negate the first 4 chapters because like those are very, very valuable. But you may like figure out whether you like it or not or whether it resonates with you by looking at that appendix first, right? Like in kind of working through that first. The other one that's interesting to me is, and I don't know if this is me wearing my teacher hat too strongly, but like the first 4 chapters read like a book, you know, like I'm telling you, you know, information like a book. This appendix reads like a lesson plan or a series of lesson plans that I would use to teach my class. And then the reason, the big driver for me on that one is because with a couple different prompts strategically placed in here, I'm now having the students go and do the thing. Like, okay, we reviewed this thing, go do this thing. And then, oh, by the way, here's some examples of where it's been done before. And it's a natural lesson plan. So it's like, I would wonder, and he kind of says it, but it's like, I would wonder if this, what's in this appendix section, is almost directly taken from his notes from class. Like, this is like lesson plan 1, lesson plan 2, lesson plan 3. And then I just put like a little bit of a spin on it in the way it's worded. That way it reads a little bit more like a story or like a chapter of a book and a little bit less like a lesson plan. But like, that's— I mean, it jumped out at me in terms of that style.
100% agree with that. Yeah, this is the academic portion of the book. Yeah.
Yeah, but I liked it a lot. Like, I thought it, I thought it added a lot of value to, to the overall book.
Cool. All right. I think that's the end of the book then, right? There is no, like, official conclusion. That's, that's basically it. It ends with the appendix and then go write your story, I guess.
Yep. Yep.
All right. So action items. I don't think I have any. Yeah, I don't think it's possible to have one from this other than go write a story.
Yeah.
There is so much in here though that is gonna be applicable when you do that, but there's, I don't know, it's a little bit different in terms of the type of book that it is. It's not real, I was gonna say practical, but that's not true. I think tactical is the—
Yeah.
The best way to describe it.
Yeah. Like, I, I feel, I think, right, that I am better off having read this book. Like, I think that there is value in me having read this book. But to your point, I don't think there's anything that I need to go do. Like, there's nothing that it sparks me to go do. Now, if I was trying to actually publish a fiction book, okay, like there's 50 things that are going to come out of this book that I need to go think about and I need to go do. But like my biggest one, like if I was forcing an action item on this book, it would be go look up the 36 dramatic situations and like just— but it's just because like I'm just interested in like what are the 36 dramatic situations that he references that are like really good ways to build a story. And I'm like, oh, that actually seems kind of, kind of interesting. But like it doesn't help me out in really any other area of life. It would only help me out if I was actually trying to write a, write a book. So no action items here.
All right, so then it is style and writing. And my book, I'll go first. I liked this book much more than I thought I would. It wasn't exactly what I expected, as we mentioned, but I think it was very, very applicable to, to my life anyways, even though we have no action items. So it's a little bit a little bit weird in that sense. I don't think the, you know, I think the most practical action item is I've read this because I want to write a story. Now I can go write my story.
Yeah.
But the way that it influences your writing, I feel like you just can't put a finger on. I was doing it this way, now I'm doing it that way. There's a whole bunch of little things in here that are gonna sort of nudge you towards better storytelling, I feel. So that's what I'm hoping happens from this. I will say it's 255 pages, I think. It's like the tightest 255 pages I've ever read. There's a lot in this book, but it's a book, which is an entire course. And I feel like the examples that are shared here, there's zero fluff in those. And the way that he writes is very direct. It's very emotional. It's very Engaging. I mean, I guess to be expected when you recognize this is a book about a class about writing. So he's got the research that's gone into it. He's got the neuroscience aspect that he can talk about. There's a whole bunch of studies that he references, which I felt like that was a good blend of stuff I was a little bit familiar with and new stuff. Doesn't get bogged down into the details of those studies and setting everything up. It's just like, this is the big takeaway. I don't know, like, I don't consider myself interested in writing a fiction story. I feel like that's kind of what I got was how to write a fiction story, but I still really enjoyed reading this. And I, I think a lot of people in the Bookworm audience would enjoy reading this and probably get a lot out of it, even if it's not going to be explicit how that actually influences your day-to-day work and life, if that makes sense. So I guess I'm kind of broadly recommending this just because, to his point earlier, I feel like getting better at telling stories is a very valuable skill that will benefit your life in many unexpected, unintended, and surprising ways. I think, I think I'm going to rate it 4 stars.
Okay.
I'm struggling between 4 and 5, to be honest, because I think it's really good. And I think it's better than I thought it was going to be, even though it wasn't what I was anticipating. Really glad that I read this. I feel like this is going to be one of those books that I can point back to later on in my life and say that had a really big impact. Maybe not in terms of I was doing this prior and now I'm doing this, and so this was kind of like the tipping point in terms of change. But if someone— the scenario I see is 5 years from now someone walks up to me and they're like, man, you're a really good storyteller, how'd you get good at this? This is probably one of the books that's at the top of the list. Yeah, yeah, I can see that. But, you know, I guess I'm projecting out when I, when I say that. So maybe, you know, maybe it was just a fun read and I don't do anything with it. I don't know. It's an interesting package though. It's a science-based course about writing better stories. I mean, That in and of itself is kind of fascinating to me. And if it's interesting at all to you, I feel like this is one that you should probably pick up.
Yeah. Yeah, I, I kind of said it when I was doing action items. I, I think this book is mainly meant for the person who is interested in actually writing. Right. And interested in storytelling. I don't think that the general reader is really going to get a lot of actionable things out of this. That said, I agree with what your last statement was, whereas if somebody comes up to me in 10 years and is like, man, how did you get so good at storytelling? I'm going to be hard pressed to probably say, well, I read this book for Bookworm and it really changed the way I thought about story. And it changed the way I thought about constructing a story and telling a story and all of those things. One of the boons for a book for me is if it, if it makes me want to do a thing that prior to that I didn't really have a lot of interest in. And like, I read this book and I go, huh, I wonder what it'd be like to write a fiction story. Like, it'd be kind of fun to like wrestle around with some of this stuff and like develop the character and see how the character, you know, exists in this plotline and what are the story events and all that stuff. Not because I inherently have ever wanted to write a long-form, you know, I've wanted to write a children's book before. I've talked about that, but like, not that I've ever wanted to write a long-form fiction story. But this book actually makes me go, huh, like, that would be cool. Like, I could see the value in that. Like, I could see like how that would be a fun and crazy and stressful process. But like, this book pushes me towards that, even though I didn't really have a lot of that to begin with. So like, that is a boon for me when it comes to it, when it comes to a book. Mike, this might be something that you think less of me for and that you may even shun me. And I might get an email or a text in like a day or two that says, Corey, I can't believe you said that on the— on live and on the recording. I think this is one of those books that if you're like kind of interested in it, you may want to do one of the like short-form summary things for it before you dive deep into the whole 250. Not that the 250 isn't of value, but I just think it's like the scope of it is so narrow that like where you really get the value out of the 250 pages is if you're in that narrow scope of audience. And I think the rest of us can get 80% of what we could get out of this book from the shorter form of this. So forgive me, I know that's not the goal is to recommend, but like, and that's not a knock on the value of what's in here. It's a matter of the scope of, I think, what the target audience is for this book. I think that's more of what it is than anything. So here's my rating. I think I agree with you. I think this is a 4-star book. Like I come out of this book going, man, I'm I'm kind of glad I read that book. Like I'm not going to go write a fiction book. That's not an interest of mine. I'm not going to go develop characters and build plots and do all that stuff, right? Like that's that's not interesting interesting. But it's one of those ones that like I feel as though I'm better off having read it, and I don't exactly know why. Like I don't I can't put a finger on why I'm better off on it. That said, I don't think I would have needed to read the entire. thing if I wasn't doing a podcast for it. Yeah, that's fair. So that's why it's a 4 and not a 5 for me.
All right. Um, to your point about the short form, I generally disagree. I think if you could grab the appendix, that as short form, that would be okay. That I would agree with. Okay. Uh, the content itself, I feel like it's already condensed. And if you're just like, pick specific spots out of the course, I'm not sure how that That actually works. But I do agree with you, there's a shorter version of this, which is the appendix. If you could just read that first, that would be, yeah, this is for me, or no, this isn't.
And that's the mass audience version of this book. Yeah. And then for anybody who's interested in actually writing fiction and writing stories, it's the full book. Like, without a doubt, full book. And probably full book plus course. Yeah. Plus, plus, like, because I think he's got more in his head that he just couldn't fit into a Oh, for sure. For sure. Shortish book, you know.
All right, let's put The Science of Storytelling on the shelf. What's next, Corey?
All righty. So my book is next. It's The 6 Types of Working Genius. The full title is 6 Types of Working Genius: A Better Way to Understand Your Gifts, Your Frustrations, and Your Team. This book is from 2022 by Patrick Lencioni. I have not read any Patrick Lencioni books, but I've heard about Patrick Lencioni books. And I've heard that they tend to be pretty reliable and pretty good. And he's a pretty good author. For those of you who are going to pick this one up and read it with us, it is a fable-style book. So it's going to tell us his principle, his model, if you will, in forms of a fable, which I sometimes like that, sometimes don't. So I'm intrigued to see how well Lencioni does it. But one of the last little caveats I'll give to it is Basically, they tout it as how fast you can learn and apply this model, and that that's one of the benefits of not only this model itself, but the book is like it communicates it quickly and effectively to where you can apply it pretty quick. So if you're reading along with us, pick up The 6 Types of Working Genius by Patrick Lencioni. What's after that, Mike?
After that, we'll cover The Way of Excellence by Brad Stulberg. I have heard him talk about this on Cal Newport's podcast and feels like the perfect type of book for, for Bookworm. How to be excellent at stuff. It's kind of why we're here, right? We want to get better at things. Yeah. Yep. All right. Got any gap books?
I do not have any gap books other than the books that I have to read for other things. So, okay, like I've said them all before, I'm behind on those books, so I'm trying to get caught up on those books. But no, no fun gap books, no interesting gap books.
All right, well, I mentioned the second Red Rising book, which is Golden Son by Pierce Brown, so I am actually gonna start on that one. I've got some travel coming up. Hopefully this big snowstorm doesn't hit, so I'm gonna probably read that one on the plane.
Nice.
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Thanks to everybody who joined us live. If you're reading along with us, you can pick up The 6 Types of Working Genius by Patrick Lencioni, and we'll talk to you next time.
