Gen Z 2.0: Zach Gottlieb on Mental Health, AI, and Connection — The TrustMakers

Hi, this is Richard Edelman, and you are listening to The Trust Makers. Hi, I'm Amanda Edelman, Deputy General Manager of Chicago and COO of the Gen Z Lab at Edelman. This month on The Trust Makers, we're focusing on Gen Z, a generation redefining trust, connection, and wellbeing. They're questioning traditional institutions, turning to peers and platforms for advice, and setting new expectations for wellness in school, work, and daily life. Today, I'm joined by Zach Gottlieb, founder of Talk with Zach, a space for young people to have honest conversations about life, feelings, and challenges. His work has been featured in the New York Times, Vanity Fair, Today, and more, as through his Instagram and other social channels, he's become a leading voice on what matters most to Gen Z. Zach, welcome to The Trustmakers.

Hi, thanks so much for having me. It's great to be here.

So I wanna start with the incredible work that you've done around mental health. I'd love to learn a bit more about the initiative that you've started and, and really just what sparked it for you. And the context for this question is that it's no surprise to anyone that Gen Z has made mental health so much less taboo and really at the forefront of the conversation. So I'm curious how this manifested for you and what made you want to do something about it.

So I founded Talk with Zach back in 2021, and this was as we were kind of like coming out of the pandemic. Mental health was something that was in every major news headline because of the isolation we felt. But I noticed that mental health wasn't something unique to COVID, but it was something that we've been dealing with for for a while before and that we'd continue to deal with long after. So I really wanted to take that as an opportunity to have the conversations we needed to be having about wellness. And especially as a guy, like, guys really don't talk about wellness. We don't talk about emotions. We're not really as emotionally intelligent as we should be. So I really wanted to model what it looks like to speak out and be open and be vulnerable as a guy especially. And it kind of blossomed from there. And I, I think that mental health, as you said, has become a less taboo topic, which is great. And I've seen everyone from professional athletes to other people around me start to open up more and more, which has been really amazing to see. And I think that a lot of that is because of all the visibility that wellness and, you know, the space has, has received over the past few years. And I feel like We obviously still have a lot of work to do, but it's definitely become a lot better, um, because of a lot of like social movements I've seen on social media and the media, um, with really notable people speaking out about this. It's become a lot more mainstream.

I have a hard question, which I'm sorry, is only coming as question number 2, which is, do you think the conversation has gone in some ways too far? Uh, and I see headlines like this a lot, um, where I would say a few years ago it was such a new thing that people were talking as honestly, uh, about their mental health. And it's obviously an amazing thing. Um, I see a lot of headlines in conversation now about almost this feeling of, are people self-diagnosing? Are they overdiagnosing? Since we're focusing on it too much, is it creating its own problems? Uh, and I think really where this is coming from is for a lot of other generations, just shock, honestly, of seeing the number of people with anxiety, people with depression, people with mental health issues, and, and just wondering where this is coming from. Um, and so I'm curious from your perspective how you sort of see this up, uh, sort of wellspring of, of conversation. Um, very positive, very negative, somewhere in the middle, good and bad. Um, but sort of why you think that this topic has become so prevalent among Gen Z and young people in particular.

I think that's a really interesting point, because I've noticed that a lot of normal people will go on and give these diagnoses on social media. And suddenly, if you're feeling sad, it's depression. If you're a little worried, it's like an anxiety condition. And when you think you have these, you know, conditions that you don't, you're in a much worse spot than you were before, simply because you're not going to address it in the way you need to be addressing it. Some people like look like, oh, should I medicate? Should I like— some people self-medicate, some people, you know, like it's quite dangerous when you think you have a condition that you don't because of what someone who doesn't have the qualifications says on social media. And I think that's quite harmful. I also feel like, you know, with this prevalence of mental health talk, a lot of people have become a little less resilient. And I, like, I wrote a piece about this a couple of years ago. And I think that when you feel like everything is getting you down, or you kind of like, see a challenge that is very normal as something that is more significant than it is because of increased mental health conversation, And that can actually be harmful for mental health. I think what's, you know, we need to kind of like strike this balance in terms of talking about emotions, but also like if you're having a tough day, I think understanding that it's okay to be sad and feel that emotion. But it's not necessarily an opportunity to make that out to be something that it's not and to make it out to be much worse than it actually is. It's almost become a trend. um, that I've seen where people like make things out to be a lot worse than they actually are. And I feel like that trend is very harmful for our generation.

I love what you said at the beginning of, in the beginning of your answer, uh, which is that more and more people are turning to social media for advice, uh, and particularly around their medical needs. Uh, and this aligns very well with our data where we found that 1 in 3 Gen Zers turned to TikTok for medical advice, uh, and actually 1 in 11 have had negative consequences because of that. Uh, so, and broadly, this is something that we absolutely see is, um, young people, uh, eroding trust in institutions, particularly science, medicine, these other things, and are turning— it's part of a long-term trend that we've seen people turn to peers for advice. So people like them And social media, of course, is full of people like them, not necessarily doctors or experts. And so is this something that you see people turning to social media, sort of less trusted sources for very important health information?

Absolutely. And I think that part of it is that and part of it is wanting the relatability and, and part of it Like, I think there's some distrust, but I think a lot of it too is like, I could go onto social media and see a million videos on demand. And I think that on-demand aspect, and especially when, you know, if you've been following recent headlines, there's a lot with like chatbots and like people trying to sue OpenAI for suicide because of, you know, them, like their child having a conversation with ChatGPT and that whole interaction going south. I think that a lot of people are turning to these other resources because it's on demand and they're easy. And you know, you could go, like I could go right now if I'm dealing with something onto any like AI chatbot and then get advice from that for free and immediately whenever I want. I could do it now if I have a breakdown at 1 in the morning, I could do it then. Or I could go on TikTok and watch a video and have someone my age kind of like talk to me almost as like as if a friend were kind of like guiding me through whatever it is I was going with. Whereas more traditional means, they're great. And I think that one misconception people have is that our generation is like fully kind of like deviated from going to traditional like psychologists, experts. We do want to hear from them. It's just a lot harder because you have to like book an appointment or you have to like go through the necessary steps. It's not as easy. It's costlier. It's, um, you know, like if you're doing therapy, you have a set time when you go to therapy. You can't like on demand get a quick, like 5-minute piece of advice. So I think that's a big part of it as well.

Hmm. So there's all these frictions that you think and people don't take into account. When you're sort of evaluating, okay, do I go to, you know, a licensed therapist in real life? Do I do a chatbot? Do I do something else? Um, and, and then I think the other point that you're saying, which is important, is that it's a yes and, uh, and I think in the conversation it feels very either-or of, oh my gosh, these young people are only talking to chatbots. But what you're saying, and this makes sense, is that people sort of view it, um, together. Um, the data would back this up. What is interesting is that apparently 70% of Gen Z have said that they have used or sort sort of talk to a chatbot as an AI companion. And even a third say that bots give better emotional interaction than people. That for me is quite a scary statistic. This does actually relate if I think of something totally different, but we do a lot of work with brands for Gen Z, and a big question is how much do Gen Zers want to connect digitally versus in person? And really our answer for, our clients is it's both. You have to do both. And I think digital is higher than other generations because Gen Z came of age during COVID um, you know, in a time of social media. And so we're used to digital connections. That being said, I believe that there is an innate human drive to want to connect in person that hasn't gone away. That is just a fundamentally human dynamic. And so it's interesting. I, I view that from sort of brand connection perspective. But even from a mental health perspective and how you're getting care, it is similar, you know, where you have sort of the, you have the in real life therapist and you have the, you know, digital channels and all of this. I want to ask you a question about AI because that I think is at the tip of everyone's tongue. Everyone's talking about it and you're in college right now. Um, and so I, I, I'm curious how people are talking about AI and, and I'll maybe give a little bit of a, an opinion and then would love to hear yours, which is that, um, there is, um, there's this sort of, uh, dichotomy or two sides of the same coin that we hear from a lot of Gen Zers, which is on one hand, um, it's a lifeline of this helps me get through my day. I use it for logistics, for my work, emotionally, for school. Um, but on the other hand, I think it also existentially stresses people out because people understand AI is totally changing the job market. Is the job that I'm training for or that I have currently even gonna be around in 3 to 5 years or 2 years? Um, so it's this really interesting dynamic, I think, of people really appreciating its utility in the short term, but also viewing it— we, we call it like a lifeline and a stressor. at, at the same time. So I'm curious if any of that resonates and what you believe and what you're hearing, amongst your friends and peers.

I think there's a lot of mixed feelings about it because on the one hand it is super useful and I know people that every time they have a problem, big or small throughout the day, their go-to is just ask AI. Um, and then I also know that there's this larger worry, which is more long-term about what's the job market going to look like in 20 years. I think that a lot of people in my generation, you kind of understand that everything is changing, and a lot of people even in older generations know that the job market changes quite frequently. And if you look at the jobs 50 years ago compared to now, even 20 years ago compared to now, a lot of them have changed quite a bit. And I think that AI could have a very positive impact. I know, like, I know that there are many competing theories on if it's going to, like, really help society or not, but I feel like overall my generation is really looking to use it for good and, and more looking at how we can use AI to make our jobs better, more efficient, and work to the best of our abilities. So I do think there's that, that worry, but I also feel like we're really taking it head-on and using it for good. But, um, again, like, it's so new that it's really hard to know what its effect will be.

That's a very positive answer. That's actually more positive than I expected. So I'll have to, um— and I think that's right where I think that, um, um, so many headlines about Gen Z are incredibly negative and I think overlook a fundamental resilience that people, particularly young people, have and sort of adaptability that, that people have. Um, and again, our data shows this is what you began the answer with, which is that it's mixed. That is 100% correct. Um, where a number of people think that the, the negatives outweigh the positives, but then, you know, half of people believe that the positives outweigh the negatives. What is true, and, and this is what you talked about, is that regardless of you know, where you sit in the spectrum of if it's positive or negative, it's a fundamental change. Um, and I do think that Gen Z, more than other generations, is aware that things are changing. Again, whether you think it's positive or negative, you have wrapped your head around the seismic change that this will entail for you in your life, in your professional career, but really your life, um, in the way that, uh, you know, other generations may, may not have, have wrapped their head around quite so much. Um, speaking of seismic changes, um, there is, uh, and I'll sort of, um, get right into it. So we just released a report last week, um, around the change in Gen Z that we're seeing, and it's this fundamental change, um, between older Gen Zers and younger ones. Um, and we're really doubling down on this theory, uh, created by Rachel Genfazza, who I interviewed a couple weeks ago on the Trustmakers. that was around Gen Z 1.0, the sort of older Gen Z versus Gen Z 2.0. And Gen Z 1.0 is frankly the stereotype of Gen Z that we think of. These are the Gen Zers who were in college or sort of college-aged, uh, around Trump and then Black Lives Matter, were a bit older when COVID hit, um, and really entered the workforce during COVID during a very, very unstable time. Um, and as a result, these are the ones who tend to be more left-leaning, more social justice. Again, they're the sort of stereotype of Gen Z that are, uh, you know, taking to the streets to protest XYZ thing. Um, that is much more the stereotype of Gen Z 1.0. For us at Edelman, we started to see a change in this about 18 months ago. Kept our eye on it because obviously this is significant. um, to see the generation flip in the way it has. And what we found when we did this report is that there is a significant difference between Gen Z 1.0, again, the sort of stereotype that I just outlined, and Gen Z 2.0. In Gen Z 2.0, they're a bit younger, so they're 22 and younger, whereas Gen Z 1.0 is about 28 to 22. Uh, so 22 and younger. They came of age during the Biden presidency. They had no time before social media. Uh, COVID hit a little bit earlier for them, and very broadly, this has yielded a generation that is highly skeptical of institutions, um, a much more sort of entrepreneurial, do-it-yourself mentality, um, and much more right-leaning actually, where in the United States, uh, sort of this sort of Gen Z 2.0, um, uh, broke right in the last election, whereas that is certainly not the stereotype that I think most people would, would imagine for Gen Z, and Gen Z 1.0 was much more left-leaning. Um, the other interesting point on this is that because they're more skeptical of institutions, they trust less. They're also more apathetic. And so their intention to vote, for example, in lower elections is about half as high as that for Gen Z 1.0. So it's this feeling of, we've tried, we, we've done our best to create the change we wanted to see. That's what the sort of older part of this generation did. That didn't work. So almost an F this, we're, we're not gonna do anything. And so there's this feeling, at least from the data, of almost apathy, uh, apathy and sort of we're going to figure it out for ourselves. So given that you have just started your sophomore year in college, um, you're right in that sort of Gen Z 2.0 range. Does this resonate with you? Do you, do you see sort of any of this for you, for your friends, sort of the world that you're seeing, the people who are part of your organization? Um, does this resonate?

I think there's definitely a greater sense of a lot of what you're talking about, like apathy, um, is big. Like, I think we're maybe less left-leaning. Um, I think there's still a lot of people who are left-leaning, but I think it's more that when you factor the people, especially young men, who are very right-leaning, that it kind of, um, more evens out. But it's not really in the middle. It's more that you have these very polarized sides, which is not the best. And there are actually a lot of studies like researching this and what they find is that it'll be hard for, you know, Gen Z 2.0 to marry because if they have such different political ideologies. And I thought that was pretty fascinating. I think we are better than like a lot of like what these trends may show just because I think that We're incredibly resilient and we still do want to create change. Like, I think, you know, like I know so many changemakers and I, I think that maybe instead of activating in the same way that Gen Z 1.0 did, maybe we're a little different. I think like we're very similar in the sense that we both want to create change. I think 1.0 maybe was a little more into like the grassroots protesting, those kinds of things. I think 2.0 is more into like ventures. Like I see a lot of people that are doing more like social justice-y things in particular. They're like, let me do a startup about, you know, whatever it is from trafficking to the environment to this, to that, to policy. Like it's more entrepreneurial, which is quite interesting. Like I see a lot of young people kind of glorifying the like entrepreneurial life. I don't know if they're necessarily glorifying like the actual path or if it's more the lifestyle and the freedom. I think the theme of freedom though is a big thing and a lot of people kind of want to escape like the sense of being tied down to, you know, some sort of like corporate job and they want to go explore and like not be tied down to institutions. Obviously that's not everyone and, you know, I for one find a lot of value in getting experience working for other people and, and learning that way. But I mean, everyone's different. Um, I'm also a very entrepreneurial person and I think it's a very interesting mix of kinds of people like wanting to go do their own thing and also conforming.

How do you think social media plays into this dynamic? And I, I mean, for me, I think the answer is it's fundamental to setting expectations and norms. And I think particularly on I love your point around sort of the glorification of freedom and being your own person. I, again, I think that that's an intrinsic sort of human need, uh, is to have your own life, dictate your own schedule, not be at the behest of other people. That all makes sense. And actually I found this for Gen Z 1.0 as well, but in a different way. Social media brings to the fore aspirational lifestyles and normalizes them in a way that it has not for prior generations. And so what I mean by that is a few years ago when we started the Gen Z Lab, I got all these questions from our clients, particularly from a workplace perspective, who asked me, they say, my Gen Zers have so many demands. What, what's going on here? And I think part of that was the labor market, but I also think part of it is content that people saw on social media of here's how to talk to your boss. Like I pushed back and, and this positive thing happened to me. And the other thing too is seeing a lot of content creators who did that full-time. Either they're in the 0.01% of, um, successful content creators, or maybe they even had not totally truthful content about how much money they brought in, but it created this sort of, oh, okay, if I don't like my job, I can always quit and make money this way. It created this alternative path that without social media that would've not been as clear.

Yeah, absolutely. And I think first of all, like we see so much on social media that isn't necessarily true, but it's great content. So pushing back on your boss, I've seen that content and it like looks pretty like badass. Like, yeah, like you could push back, you could get a higher salary, you could get better hours, you could do this or that. But in reality, like it's kind of like glorifies the fact that you're able to do that and the, and the power dynamic there of like being able to ask for that. Everyone is in a different position job-wise and like what you can negotiate with at one place is different from what you can negotiate at another. And I, I, I think that, you know, you're just seeing all this content and you're kind of inundated with a lot of people saying like, you could, you have the right, it's your, prerogative to do like this or that. And I don't think that that's very healthy for a lot of people who don't really understand like, or have the judgment to know when to, you know, exercise that right. I also think like when you have someone renting a very nice car and, you know, saying like, here's how you can make $10K a month doing, like online, whatever. That's very attractive for a lot of people unhappy at their jobs or wanting to make money. And in reality, like a lot of these things are like not viable in the slightest. They're trying to sell you on a course or something or other. And you know, you see so many people that kind of like fall into the trap of like, oh, like I just want to escape the matrix and like do my own thing and like become really wealthy. Because you see that on social media and you see that message everywhere of like, escape the matrix, escape like the traditional path, and then go off and do your own thing. And I think that's harmful for people that want that lifestyle very quickly. And I think that obviously like on social media, they're showing off their best life and that's not reality at all. So, so I think social media has played a big role. I also think it's just opened up like entirely different careers, like you said, like influencers, That's a career now. I started to talk with Zach on social media. I wouldn't be here having this conversation with you if it weren't for social media. So I think it has like also provided people a lot of opportunity and it gives everyone a voice and a platform. Like 20 years ago, if you wanted to do something and make a change, like it was so much harder. Like where do you even start? Like you really have to go grassroots from the ground up and build something. Nowadays you post a viral video and suddenly the world is your oyster. Um, anyone could start off and build something if they really put your mind to it.

Well said. I think this actually goes back to what we said at the beginning of the conversation, and I think they're two sides of the same coin, which is access to expertise and influence has been democratized in many ways. And that's because social media, it's exactly what you said, allows people to become someone. Any, anyone on social media can become someone regardless. And, uh, you know, of course that's, it's harder than it sounds and has more bias than it sounds, but broadly anyone can become something. And I think that that relates back to our initial start of the conversation, which is around lack of trust in institutions, which is around people seeking health advice from non-licensed professionals. Again, it's sort of this idea of the sort of expansion of who is able to have voice and what that looks like. I just have a couple more questions for you, but I, I feel like we've touched on some really interesting themes and conversations that are happening about young people right now, whether that's mental health or AI or social media, workplace norms, uh, job aspirations, lifestyle aspirations. What is one thing that you think people get wrong or people aren't talking about yet?

I think for us, like one thing that I've noticed, at least in my platform and the people around me are like how we're kind of going about relationships. And I think that like a lot of when people think about Gen Z, like they don't really think of us like as, as people are like really seeking to build deep connection. And I think that the role of social media has, you know, both been good and bad for this. I think other, like, like at least the media and like older generations have been quick to say like social media is a bad thing for deepening connections and you know, you really need in-person time. I think that it would be great to see how we could use both. Like, like you said before with brands, like how do brands reach people? And that's both, I think the same can be said for relationships. I need digital connection with other people in order to like maintain a lot of my friendships and relationships with people I don't like physically see all the time, but also like having in-person, like real, like real life experiences with people are crucial. And I think just understanding like you need both and we care so much about relationships. I'd say like that was probably the number one thing on my platform that came up or was like that. And then like probably like academic pressure and then pressure about financial stress about like future, but that was obviously less because most of my platform were people in high school and coming of age. But I think relationships are so crucial to our wellbeing. They're probably the defining factor and I just feel like we need to pay more attention to how we're making those and how we're connecting with other people.

That's smart. I think what you're saying, which I hear, is in some ways we've, um, overdone it, uh, of acknowledging that you can't get all of your social enrichment through social media, but it is an integral part of how people form and maintain relationships. And even if I think of myself, business school, other, you know, experiences in my life, people are spread all over the world, not even all over the United States, but social media is literally what allows me to stay close with people who have vastly different backgrounds than myself. So to your point, not overly demonizing the digital age and digital relationships while also providing, um, in-person social time, community building, social enrichment, whatever you wanna call it, is, is essential. So I, I like that. We'll end with, with one final question, hopefully an easy one, not too hard, uh, which is, so you're currently at Stanford, which is Small World, my alma mater. What is one thing that you're excited about for this year?

So I'm about to start my sophomore year in a couple of weeks. And I think one thing I'm really looking forward to is I did freshman year and freshman year was just the first time for everything, like the first time in college, which is the biggest change of my life. And it was an awesome experience, but also very novel experience. I think I'm really looking to really like deepen what I'm passionate about and deepen my interests. So like, for example, like I've kind of tentatively decided that I'm doing like political science as a major and public policy as a minor. I also want to, you know, you know, do more with the clubs that I'm involved with. Like I'm managing editor for the opinion section at the Stanford Daily, which is something that I love doing. I've done a lot with, um, journalism and writing before college, and now I'm doing that at a very high level, and it's something I'm quite passionate about. So I want to do more of that. I'm also really interested in, like, I'm just starting to get into finance and financial systems. So I also want to look into that as well and kind of like deepen my involvement in a lot of clubs and organizations, both at school and outside. Um, and then lastly, obviously, you know, I'm excited to see my friends at school again and make even more memories than I did last year.

Amazing, Zach. Well, I wish you luck on that quite ambitious list. [LAUGHTER] But, but again, thank you so much, Zach, for your insights and expertise. Unfortunately, that is all the time that we have. I'm so happy to share that our new Gen Z report is officially out and is available for those who are interested. You You can find it on edelman.com. As discussed, we are exploring the Gen Z 1.0 versus 2.0 dynamic with research from our Trust Barometer findings and with additional perspectives from experts on our team. Thank you so much for listening to The Trust Makers and see you again soon. Thank you for tuning into The Trust Makers, an Edelman podcast in partnership with Advertising Week. Where we speak with leaders and other trust builders across institutions.

See you next time.