From Big Idea to Validated Business Case - Live Coaching with Alex and David

So, welcome to this new webinar on Testing business Ideas. How do we get from a big idea to validated business case? My name is Gabriel. Everybody calls me Gab. I'm calling in from Montreal, Canada, and this session is sponsored by the virtual masterclass, Testing Business Ideas, which is going to be happening online on December 8th through 9th. If you have a paper and a pen, now would be the time to take. At the top right of your screen, there's a discount promo code for attending this webinar. If you want to be part of the Testing Business Idea Masterclass, we're going to give you a bit more details about that towards the end of the session, if that's of interest to you. Today we have our special guest, a very courageous guest who accepted for us to look through his business, how he's testing it, how he's bringing it to the market, how he's getting validation. And, Joe, thanks for being here. It's really nice to have you part of this webinar. And we also have Alex and David, of course, the two authors, two main authors of Testing Business Ideas, who are going to be analyzing and coaching Joe through his process for testing his business ideas. So, Joe, why don't you tell us a bit about your business so we can have the ground bases to get this kicked off. Oh, actually, before you jump into that, Alex, David, you want to just say a word before we get kicked off?

Yeah. Let's get started. Gab, thanks a lot for kicking us off. Thanks a lot. I think we should all say thanks to Gab making this possible. And Lucy was in the background helping with the heavy lifting around the structure of what we're going to do at live coaching today. David, first, maybe, how do you feel about life coaching? I think it's something you enjoy, right?

I love it. It keeps me on my toes, keeps me sharp. And I love people doing amazing things, and you just help them make progress. So I really enjoy it.

And, Joe, before we even get started, are you okay with David and me being brutally honest, kindly delivered, and. And, you know, you're helping other people learn. Are you gonna. Are you fine with that?

Just officially, totally fine? Yeah, absolutely.

Very courageous, I must admit.

Right.

You know, there are 850 people now, probably another couple of thousand gonna watch the recording, so. Really brave. But that's the job of an entrepreneur, right? So, Joe, get us started maybe with your idea, and then we'll get into the live coaching.

Okay, great. So, yeah, thank you. Thanks for having me as well. This is awesome. So, you know, I love bikes and you know, I've got a problem with seeing all these bike graveyards on social media and you know, continually like the pressure to buy new bikes and the latest shiny bikes. I figured there must be a better way to create new bikes in a sustainable way. But with E bikes particularly, it's actually quite expensive to own an E bike. They're very expensive, most of them. Even the cheapest ones are expensive. Not only that, unless you're into cycling and you love it and you like tinkering, it can be a hassle as well, right? I mean, you've got the worry of general maintenance, puncture, repairs, and also when it's my E bikes, you've got the worry about motors and batteries and that kind of thing. So it's a bit of a hassle and it's expensive to own. So I figured let's see if we can create a sustainable E bike and take the hassle out of it and offer that to customers on a cheap monthly subscription. So that's my big idea. New bike team. So the first thing that is an idea that actually been sort of floating around in my mind for about 18 months, but quite recently I've started to try and move forward with it quite proactively. And so one of the things that I did early on was to create a very basic landing page just so when I'm talking about it to people they can check out the landing page. And it obviously gives me a bit more credibility and people know that I've actually moved the idea beyond just that of a kind of a dream. So very basic landing page and obviously the business model. How do I actually start to test this idea without a little bit familiar with the business model already? Like how do I test this idea incrementally without wasting loads of money? And so clearly I need to have upcycled bikes, I need to be able to convert them to electric and then I sell them on a monthly subscription basis to customers who want a hassle free experience. But one of the interesting things that came out very early on in my testing and speaking to people was that in spite of focusing on individuals to start with, it transpired there's a really interesting customer segment of businesses. Businesses who were maybe providing bikes for their staff to get around campuses, but also businesses that were, you know, last mile delivery companies. So there's the very, very brief overview. My key hypotheses are, first of all, it is possible to build a high quality E bike using upcycled bicycles as possible. Second hypothesis is that people will pay a subscription fee for hassle free sustainable E bike. And the third hypothesis is that it is possible to create a sustainable business. Now what be super interesting to find out now is what the, the room feels is the most important hypothesis to test first. So to that end, I believe GAB is going to put up a poll and ask everybody that's participating, what hypothesis should I test first? It's possible to build a high quality E bike. People will pay a subscription for hassle free sustainable E bike. Or it's possible to create a sustainable business.

It's going to be interesting because after Joe, David and I will also give you some feedback on the hypothesis. Right, so we'll go back to that. So these are the three you kind of started with. But before we even get into testing and some of the coaching on the testing, I think there's a, and this is a common theme that I think, David, you've seen quite a bit, right, that people still don't even necessarily use or struggle with the concept of hypothesis, right?

Yeah. I think also we use assumption and a hypothesis in a different way. When we say assumptions, it's sort of a belief. But a hypothesis is something that's testable, precise and discreet and it's well formed enough so that you could go design an experiment and then know if you're on the right track. I think where people get frustrated by experimentation is some things can be poorly worded. You run an experiment, it gives you mixed results and then you say, well, screw this, I'm going to go build the whole thing anyway. So that typically is what happens.

Let's see what the results are. What do people think? Pretty amazing. Will people pay a subscription for hassle free sustainable E bikes? So Joe, is that what you actually started with?

So actually no, it's not. So I started with the first one. It's possible to build a high quality E bike.

So.

This was my first test. Have to balance this with the fact that, you know, lockdown had started. This is an amazing thing to actually be doing as well in my house. But I built a prototype that had, that was a beautiful bike that had been used upcycling. And not only that, I then had to go and get test riders using it in different parts of the UK in different weather conditions as well to actually make sure that it was possible. My other thinking behind it was that in order to move forward to the hypothesis around the sort of desirability like do people want it or will people pay for it? It'd be very helpful to actually Have a product image to be able to say this is what it is. And so that was kind of a balance of, you know, how do I choose which one to do? But nevertheless, this was the first one that I chose. My second test was around people paying a subscription for a hassle free E bike and I decided to initially to contact people in my direct network. I'm not talking friends and family here though. Like I'm talking about kind of my sort of loose network if you like. And I would measure how many people actually pay for subscription, how many people ask for a follow up meeting and how many people ask for more detail. And the criteria that I set around whether or not I move forward with the next test or whether or not I have to stop and take stock, we're at the bottom there. So if 1% say yes, that's a good sign. If 10 those things at the bottom, I know you don't need to read them off the slide, but those are all good signs. Lo and behold, day one of my testing, the second person I spoke to decided to order a bike and paid for a subscription, which was super exciting. Obviously I had to actually, you know, curb my enthusiasm. You know, one sale, you know, fully aware one sale does not make a business, but it was a good sign. And the other interesting thing about this actually was that as soon as I had my first customer commit, I realized I didn't have a way to take payment. So I'm like, what am I going to do? I was thinking, do I use PayPal? Do I just give them my bank details and ask them to do a transfer? And I figured that's probably not all that professional. There's a balance. And so I went back to my holding page and I actually made a payment page which is sort of a private URL. So I was able to send him like a branded payment page and use the stripe integration. So it didn't take long at all. And so I was able to take payment that way. But anyway, this test was in super interesting because I had lots of feedback. But the biggest challenge for me was that it was really difficult to speak to 100 people. I mean like I ended up speaking to 35 people. But it was very fruitful. And in fact it was this test which gave me the new customer segment of businesses. So I've got all this feedback. I think I know what I'm doing with it. But clearly I'm sure there's room for improvement. So this is very super interesting to find out what my evidence means and how do I capture insights from it. Alex and David.

So I'm going to throw it over.

To David, who is the, you know.

The world's expert on testing business ideas.

Since he authored, I would say, the best book that exists in the market right now. Very, very hard for a Swiss to kind of brag like that. But I do think David did a great job. But let's go back maybe to the hypothesis. David, let's kick it off with there. Before we get to the evidence, there are a couple of things. We went pretty fast on the whole thing. A lot of great stuff, Joe. So I think it's really, really cool how you got out there, did the payment stuff. That's awesome. But I think we do need to take a step back. David, any comments on the hypothesis?

Yeah, yeah, happy to. So thank you for the kind words. So I tend to frame these, we believe at the beginning, or we believe that whatever your preference is. But I love those. Instead of stating these as questions or implied questions, they're beliefs that you have as an entrepreneur or as a founder or an innovator, and try to make these testable, precise and discreet. So it's very specific and it's not too big. So you need to kind of break them down. Uh, another thing is I love that you have desirability, feasibility, viability, because it's kind of like, do they desirability, can we or can I for feasibility and should we or should I for viability, which means sustainability. And I think, you know, these probably could be worded slightly differently. That would make them easy to test. You know, we believe that it is possible to build high quality E bike using upcycled materials or bicycles. You could even start unpacking that with some numbers. Right? So specific numbers. And also I think with hypothesis two, you kind of flagged it as desirability, feasibility, viability. But it's mostly a viability test to see will they pay. And what I love about this framing is that they're all related. So, you know, you can't test viability and isolation. Obviously, you know, it's whether or not people. It resonates. Alex, what do you think about hypothesis three?

Yeah, so I think, you know, every entrepreneur, you know, gets out of bed.

To build a sustainable business. So that's such a big kind of assumption that that's what we try to do as entrepreneurs. So when you put that, it's almost, how am I going to test if I can build a sustainable business? Well, by building it. So what we say, why we even talk about hypothesis, is because we want to take this big thing, the sustainable business that we hope to build and break it down into smaller chunks. And those smaller chunks are customers care about E bikes, they want to purchase an E bike they're not purchasing today because it's too expensive. Those are the smaller things.

And then that works up to, at.

One point, okay, sustainable business. But let me ask you, Joe, what were you trying to say with that? Because it seems like, okay, of course everybody wants to build a sustainable business. So what was your thinking behind that hypothesis?

Well, one of the, the idea of it being completely hassle free, month to month subscription does mean that people can potentially just take it for one or two months and give it back. And therefore like one of the things that's really critical to the business and the long term business is that we can put the bikes out and be utilized, heavily utilized, and that we've got a long average customer lifetime.

So see, that's where words are actually.

Confusing because I think the way you framed it now is a lot better. And it just shows. We took this big assumption, sustainable business broken down into smaller pieces. You talked about retention. So the one thing is the assumption would then be if we take this green one and break it down into the smaller pieces that you can test. You just said I can retain customers for longer than two months. Right.

That's an assumption you don't know.

So yeah, you got to put it up. That's correct. Then the other thing you said, and that's a different assumption is you know.

The customer lifetime value is X.

So that's why we make assumptions. So you break them down into smaller testable pieces. It is possible to create a sustainable business. That's too big an assumption. The only way you can do that is build a business. So we break it down into smaller ones where you can say, okay, I'm going to test retention, I'm going to test customer lifetime value. And some of those you won't be able to do upfront, but you need to break them down into smaller manageable chunks. And I suspect. Right, so, and let me throw this back to David, right? People will pay 55 pound subscription. That's probably not one assumption either. That's why you checked off desirability, feasibility, viability. What would be a better way to maybe look at that, David?

Yeah, well I think it's breaking that down into recurring, you know, how long is it? The length of, you know, what's your subscription business, right. Is all about recurring revenue. And then also I think it was a little unclear with the first one, you know, I think almost anything's possible. I don't know, I work with people who try to build roads on the moon, so anything's pretty much possible at this point unless you're doing time travel. So I think what I'm really interested in, the second one is how does that relate to how do you arrive at that price? Because what does it take with the feasibility? Can you do back of the napkin math of what it costs? And I think that's what's always interesting to me is we don't necessarily look at cost structure and revenue and say, oh, hopefully cost structure is lower than revenue. Eventually it's simple math, but I think some people skip that step and we say, oh, we'll just figure that out later. So I was really curious how you arrived at the, at the number.

So at the beginning of, the very beginning of the process, the arbitrary number plucked out of the air initially was 35amonth. And actually like we've been talking, I've got a very good friend who I've been bouncing, has been with me on the journey and together we've been looking at the cost structure and initially we weren't going to include locks and insurance into the proposition, but at. And fundamentally it's about hassle free. So it needs to include locks, it needs to include insurance. Not only that is we needed to try and get the customer lifetime, the average customer lifetime down because we're trying to encourage long term thinking in the business. If we have bikes and we keep them in the ecosystem for longer, that then becomes more sustainable and we can therefore offer cheaper prices. But the average lifetime value was not realistic so we had to edge it up when we had to, you know that. So we've arrived at £55 through trial and error using Excel models and our cost structure.

And I think that's cool. The thing that I would question here is, for me what's missing is hypothesis two. You check Mark, you know, desirability, feasibility, viability, because you're actually hiding things that you should have broken out. Just, just like we said, the green one, we're breaking it into smaller pieces. I think there is no real desirability hypothesis here. So why am I saying that? Because if now people don't sign up for £55, you don't actually know why because there's too much hidden in that. So it might be they don't like the price. It might be they don't care about E bikes, right? So there's so many assumptions hidden in there. So what you would want to know first is almost like people actually care about, subscribe, care about the cost.

Right.

So maybe that's a wrong assumption. So before you even go to testing a subscription model, you want to have evidence saying that for many people, E bikes is too expensive and they would prefer a subscription model. Right. So something like that before even getting to price. Because if you don't have that evidence, you don't actually know why they don't care. So we like to build it up first and, you know, think. For those of you who know the value proposition canvas, we like to say think circle first. Show me evidence for jobs, pains and gains. And then you go to other things. So now if they say, oh, I'm not interested, you already know, well, they actually want to rent an E bike because it's too expensive. Now maybe the price is wrong or, oh, there's something missing in the value proposition.

Right.

Oh, the insurance, we can take it out. So I think there again, there are too many hypothesis packed into this overall one which we see a lot. Right, David? We see people who always come up with these high level things, but then when they test them, they don't actually know why they were wrong. Isn't that something? You face the lines. You coach a hundred times more teams than I do.

Yeah, quite often. And I think it's okay. It's okay to start at the high level. And then you want to kind of break these down and unpack them into stuff you can test. Because this one. Well, we'll get to your test in a moment. But I felt like I never want people to get too excited or too depressed after the first test because you're like, somebody paid for it. Amazing. I got to go scale this. And it's like, well, maybe we need more evidence. Or nobody cared. This is a terrible idea. And it's like, well, maybe we need more evidence. So I really try to. It's really hard though, because you get really excited or really depressed usually after that first experiment. But yeah, this is pretty common. And like Alex said, I recommend breaking it down into smaller chunks and then testing your way through it, which ultimately will lead you to a stronger strength of evidence on the larger one. And I think it's just, just the discipline of breaking it down is something that I would recommend.

And I'd also say, again, Joe, this.

Is what we see a lot.

And that's because we're in this phase of professionalizing testing where when people do this kind of first time or so, that's exactly what happens. David, let's go to the if. Joe, you can go to your first test, your first experiment.

What do you think about building the bike first?

David?

Again, I err on the side of we can build anything. It just becomes how costly is it? I've worked with so many amazing new product initiatives that always blow me away of what people can build. So I think it just really for you, I think it's more the intent behind it. When you were doing this, was it more around how much is it going to cost to do this or was it, hey, I don't know if this is possible.

In terms of costing, but also kind of testing, you know, the motor and the battery. I can get everything. The bike comes from the uk, but the motor and the battery are from, you know, from China. So there's a big element there of like supply chain. Like how possible is it? How many do I need to order in order? What's the lead time? So I learned quite a lot doing it, but main thing was around cost.

Let me ask, just really. Oh, go ahead, go ahead.

How much time did it, how much did it cost you and how much time did it take you to build this bicycle, this E bike?

So trying to. So, you know, hands up, I didn't record exactly every sort of minute. I was spending all part two, all part two, I think about a day.

Okay, so that's reasonable, right? Because the one thing we say is, you know, go cheap and go fast. So building something when you can do it in a day is very reasonable. The problem is the reason why we often say don't build first is imagine you had spent just a week, even a week, and then you figure out nobody is interested. Well, you spent, you wasted a week of your time, Right? Because there's equivalent experiments to test desirability. You could make a video of something. You're in design, you could make something look like the real thing. You don't need to build it. Now good news is it's just a day. So then it's okay to actually build something first. But the principle is always cheap and fast at the beginning. So that's very good news. You didn't waste a lot of time.

Yeah, just really quickly. I'm not an expert in this field by any means. We do have an E bike. We have an E cargo bike, an extracycle rfa and we also have a foldable turn extra cycle collaboration where it's a foldable cargo bike. And we were thinking, oh, maybe we can turn our cargo bike into an E bike. And they used to sell the kits. Like there's observable evidence that there's. People do sell kits to convert bikes. And interesting enough, the bike shops I go to out here in California no longer sell them, and they don't sell them because they thought they weren't reliable enough. And so sometimes it's building it yourself and other times you can also look outside. You just have to be careful making too many extrapolations from things you see in the market. But I think looking for observable evidence also helps. But I just wanted to know the meaning behind your reason behind building first. And I think that was pretty clear why you chose that.

And so we're having a couple of.

Very technical questions in the chat, which.

Are great, but we actually can't go into the details of discrete. All the hypothesis. So a lot of that will be addressed in the virtual Masterclass. So it's not that we don't want to, but we want to get through the whole kind of coaching before we get into the details. Let's maybe move to your second experiment. David, any feedback on this second experiment? So we just agreed, first one didn't lose a lot of time. So it's fine to do that, though. We are. And if I can speak for you, David, I definitely say don't build something until you have a lot of evidence about jobs, pains and gains. Let's have a look at the second experiment and then get to actually to Joe's question, which is more around evidence.

Yeah, we'll eventually get to your question. So a couple things. One, I love that you stripe, by the way, the highest value company in Silicon Valley. I think they're amazing and they're on the way to triple their valuation. So I love that you kind of looked at something what's easy to integrate that is legitimate, that'll make you look like something real. You're not just, hey, send money to this P.O. box or whatever. And then what I liked about this is you do have we are right if criteria, which I find is the hardest part of filling out a card. And Alex always says you should be able to hand this card to someone else and have them actually be able to comprehend it and run it. And I think that's a really great kind of pressure test for one of these. One of the things I want to call out, though, is it sounds like you have amazing qualitative feedback in addition to the quantitative. And I think sometimes the way we structure these. And I just had this happen this week with a team where they're like, oh, what I'm just measuring quantitatively. I was like, you have so much amazing qualitative feedback from talking to people. And I was just really curious. And maybe this is part of your first question here is, you know, how did you take notes? How do we take that feedback and maybe like, theme it and see what came out of it? Because I feel like in addition to your numbers here and your percentages, you probably have a lot of great qualitative insights.

Yeah, absolutely. I was used. I just was taking notes as I was speaking to people, sticking it straight into. Into notepad or Excel, whatever I had open at the time that was relevant to. As I was speaking to people. And then I would color code everybody as to whether or not they were, you know, I need to get back in touch with them as their response. So I kind of had this. So I can, at a glance, I can go back and check at a later date what I need to sort of follow up with. But I did notice the recurring theme was lots of people were very, very accommodating and wanted to kind of be involved and have lots of ideas. You know, I had people offering investment and people offering sort of, you know, grants and stuff like this, which wasn't exactly. Wasn't what this test was about. So, yeah, it was about me just taking notes. And some of those sort of verbatims actually are a bit. A little bit later on in the deck.

Let's get to actually, let's take that evidence.

And it's a brilliant question.

David, if you can. Joe, stop sharing the screen for a second because then I'll show something that we now do on a regular basis. You just need to stop sharing for a second. I can't take over, so I'm going to draw.

I've lost my mouse.

Maybe. Yeah, once you got it.

Because there was also a question around competition. So somebody's calling us out and say, oh, you guys didn't look at competition. Competition is irrelevant at this phase. I'll tell you. Just quoting Steve Blank. No startup goes out of business because of competition. They go out of business for a lack of customers. Right. And when you talk to customers, you'll learn enough around competition. So, you know, the Jeff Bezos quote is if everybody focuses on us while we focus on customers, we'll be just fine. There's this Twitter quote. Somebody, I don't remember who it was, says, if you focus on your competitors, your product is going to look like your competitor's ass. So I just want to point this out. Competitors at this stage don't overthink it. Yes, there are and don't be naive about it. But what you want to focus on is customers. Customers and for the interviewing. So do you know, do you know, Joe? Do you know the value proposition?

Candice?

You heard of that?

Yes.

Okay, so here's a really good way to take notes. And we actually now often get the interviewers to immediately go to customers and actually have a customer profile on the screen with the sticky notes like, oh, this is the jobs. These are the jobs of the customer. These are here the pains. And then validate with the customer, the customer profile. And it turned out to be an extremely powerful way of immediately visualizing together with the customer. You could also start from an empty customer profile. So another technique is while you're taking these qualitative notes, immediately classifying them into oh, this is something customers are trying to get done. This is a pain they have with maybe competitors products or a pain they have related to E bikes in general. I don't know where to find information. I don't even know where to buy one of these or ask me. So I got a question to the both of you. You talk about cargo guy, cargo bikes. I have no clue what you're talking about. Like probably another 50% of listeners. So maybe before we move on, what's a cargo bike?

So really quickly, it's a larger bike, it has a longer frame, it can carry up to hundreds of pounds. I could literally like bike my kid to school on it or get groceries on it. So it really replaces a car essentially. Joe, I don't know if you had anything else you wanted to add.

Got it.

Love it. You can take notes with this. So you take notes related to customer jobs, pains and gains and then you take notes too. If they already have E bikes or the looking at solution, you're looking at products and services that they're looking at today or might have and you're looking at the pain relievers, the headache pill and the gain creators. So if you structure the notes like this already, here's what you're going to be able to do with the evidence, which is a lot harder with transcripts. So transcripts are great, but you want to probably. So that would be the other technique.

Is you take a transcript, you have.

All this stuff and you turn it into a value proposition canvas for each interview. And here's the reason why. Because if you do this well, and we're now doing this with a lot of teams, our kind of default method, you'll have all of a sudden you'll have, let's say you have 35 customer profiles because you talked to 35 people. Now you can start to see patterns. Right. You'll say, oh, here I got all these people who already own an E bike, they have a certain pattern. Or I have all these people who are interested in an E bike. I see this pattern and that's the pattern. Recognition is the strongest skill of an entrepreneur. But if you don't, you know, if you just use transcripts, it's going to be incredibly hard. And if I quickly go back. So just to your test card, if you can share your screen again in the test card and I'll throw it back to David. You say people, Right. Did you, were you more explicit about what type of people you went towards or was it literally just people? Like, how did you select the people you would interview?

For my first test, it was just. Well, it was people who I thought would. Wasn't completely unqualified. It was people who I thought were kind of either senior enough to make decisions on behalf of their business or people who had expressed an interest previously. It wasn't completely random.

Okay.

So that you would want to reflect.

So already I was assuming we're talking about individuals here and now you're already telling me, no, no, I talk to businesses. So when we. So now let's look at your evidence. Right, so if we go back to the test card you showed us, we.

Go back up to the test card you had. So of those 35, how many were individuals and how many were businesses like business people who have decision making power?

Well, I mean, a lot of, most of them actually, because they were, you know, my contacts were through LinkedIn, so.

Most of them were business.

Most of them, yeah.

Okay.

Now initially, but initially it was more a case of the way that I sort of framed. The way that I was framing these discussions was that, hey, you know, I've worked, you know, I know you, you know me like, I've got a new venture, I've got a value proposition. I'd love to get your view on it.

Yeah.

And you know, I'd also, in some cases I would even, I would say that, I would say this, I would love to get your view on how I might approach you or other similar companies about becoming part of our pilot. And that was the sort of intro. So it wasn't like hard sales, because I didn't want that because it would almost make the evidence weaker, I would say.

So I'll be, as I promised, brutally honest, but very kind. Right. Very courageous to talk to 35 businesses already. But you made the mistake that we see many people make. They think, oh, interviews are easy. You actually asked for opinion, and people love talking about opinion. Oh, great idea, Love it. And I'm sure you heard a lot of positive stuff. In reality, you don't know what they're thinking.

Right.

So you a better way, and I don't know, maybe you did this right, A better way than asking, what do you think? Or are you interested? Or could others be interested? Better way to ask is, did you ever consider E bikes for your business?

Right?

Because then you have a fact. Then they'll tell you, no, never thought of it. You already know. Well, probably they don't care. Because if they care, they would have thought of it.

Right?

Then you say, okay, let's go larger. Did you ever think about new green transportation options for your collaborators? No, never thought about it. So at the very least, you now have evidence that you have a really big acquisition problem.

Right?

So never ask. And this is really a rule, don't ask at this stage for opinion. Because people have an opinion on everything. Ask immediately for facts. Not do I like this idea. Actually go back to the circle and figure out some facts related to their jobs pains and gains. So you could ask things like, you know, did the topic of E bikes ever come up in employee transportation? Or do you even think about benefits for your employees? No, not thinking about it. Right. So evidence, hardcore evidence for jobs pains and gains. And only in a second phase, you start thinking solution. David, I went on a rant here. So what do you think?

No, it's similar. I constantly mess up interviews. I mean, I was doing intercepts in a store with one of the largest retailers in the world, and sure enough, I asked leading, ended, closed, closed ended questions. Leading, closed, ended questions. And I've been doing this a while, and so it's so easy. So don't beat yourself up too much over it. And I think, again, looking for observable evidence outside of interviewing people, I mean, there are campuses that already have E bikes, at least out here anyway, that people ride them from campus to campus and they have little bike racks and everything. Um, but I just don't want you taking too much confidence, you know, from that. You do have to recreate it for your culture and whatnot. But I do think Alex is onto something with just have them talk about the past, have them talk about facts. Also, I noticed when you said you were taking notes and you were asking the interview questions, I find that really hard to do. Maybe you have that superpower. I don't. I can't necessarily ask a question actively. Listen, take good notes, and they'd be thinking about the next question and how to redirect the conversation. And so sometimes bringing somebody with you can help or recording them. The only downside about recording them is that you will never, ever, ever go back and watch all those recordings.