#199 - Playbook: Crushing your competitors

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Everybody. And welcome to this episode of 20 minutes to 80% of quota. Wait, that's not the name of the show. That's the mediocre competitor's name. Guess what, Nick, we are talking about our newest playbook episode. It is how to handle your competitors. My name is Armand Farouk, and I'm here with my co host, Nick Sigelski. And, folks, today, in this brutal market to be selling, and you're going to be competing against 5, 6, 7, 10, 20 different competitors, even if you're the vendor of choice at the beginning, because people are really cheap and they're evaluating more vendors, and you got to stand out, and we're teaching you how to do it today. So, Nick, why should people listen?

Well, Armand, like you said, you are going to run into competitors in your deal cycle. And just like me, you, listener, don't like losing. And so we're going to talk about how to be a winner today.

Oh, that's right. So Nick is going to stop talking at this point in the episode because he has no useful advice in that domain. But the four ways we're going to break this down are, number one, the mindset and the preparation behind how to handle competitors. Number two, the majority of this playbook will be focused on discovery, because then, number three, we will apply what we've learned in discovery to negotiate a deal. And then lastly, number four, we will take a simplified version of what we use in discovery to throw competitive darts as you make cold calls or send cold emails. And a three, A two, a one. Let's ride. Today's show is brought to you by Text us, which helps you move your deals forward faster. When timing matters, the fastest way to move a feel forward is to avoid getting stuck in the inbox. And so my favorite way to get on a text basis is literally when your prospect requests a demo, just send them a confirmation text saying that you're looking forward to the meeting, and that opens the text channel for you to call back on it later, folks, we put an entire guide on how to revive ghosted deals, nudge next steps, and use texting to keep deals moving forward. With text us, check it out. It's free in the show notes.

All right, so, Armand, we're going to start with the mindset behind winning competitive deals, because I talk to a lot of salespeople who, when they find out there's a competitor in their deal, their stomach churns and they sweat and they get nervous and anxious and they don't actually know how to win those deals. And the reality is, especially today, every single deal, you're gonna have competitors. If you outbound a customer, you're gonna have competitors. Because when they get into deal process and really start evaluating their thing, they're gonna look for a cheaper solution. And if they come inbound, you better know for sure that they went and they clicked request a demo on six different websites. So accept the fact that you're gonna run into competitors. The bad news for most reps is they think, oh boy, I've got competitors in a deal. The only way I'm gonna win this is by shooting down the by one. When in reality the number one way to win your deal is by delivering a killer buying experience and leaning really, really hard into strategic discovery.

And to double down on that, folks, oftentimes people over rotate on handling competitors in discovery, and that's actually a way to lose a deal is if you over rotate on your differentiators. If you have a similar solution to a competitor, you might miss what's most important to prospect because you're so focused on your competitor. So the number one, most important thing that we will go over today is step number one is figure out what is most important to your prospect. And if you solve that, most other sellers won't even be that good at discovery. So you can win a deal against an apples to apples competitor just because you found the right problem that is going to win you half of your competitive battles. And then the other half of your competitive battles will be won by winning in the areas where your product is different. So assume that if the midline is the average of sales reps, you will beat all the below average sales reps just by being a better seller and solving the right problem. But to win those tough, tough, tough apples to apples deals, you have to be selling inside of what we will call the winning zone.

Yes. So you talked about it earlier, Armand. Every deal that you're in, there's a battleground. And if you think about how you and your company stack up to some of your competitors, there's going to be areas that you're weaker than your competition. That's the reality. We call that the losing zone. Those are areas where if the things that you're weak at are the things that matter most to your customer, you're probably in trouble and not going to get the deal. There are also areas where you are stronger than your competitor, where you beat them, and if those are the things that matter most to your customer, well, you're probably going to win the deal. And then there are also Areas that honestly, you and your competitor are neck and neck and there isn't really a ton of differentiation. And we call that the neutral zone. To win a competitive deal is you need to get your customer to prioritize the areas that are your winning zones. And the way that you do that is you teach them, hey, to solve the problem that you have. These are the things that are most important.

So like we just mentioned before, the crux of all of this is doing really outstanding discovery. And if you haven't listened to our discovery playbook, definitely go back and listen to that. But typically, good discovery means there might be 20 things that matter in your solution when evaluating any tool in your industry. And you need to find the five that are most important to that prospect. Let's assume that of those five, three are neutral zone, one is losing zone, and one is winning zone. Like I mentioned earlier, you want to make sure that you still do not completely ignore the neutral zone, but you win in the neutral zone. And then you, you need to start to steer your prospect toward the winning zone and educate them on why the winning zone is important to other customers that look like them. And then when it comes to the losing zone, you want to make sure that they start to realize that folks who prioritize solutions in the losing zone are not customers like them. They're the cheap customers or the customers who want to have a cobbled together solution. But what you've told me is really not meant to be fit inside of the losing zone. So, Nick, let's make this actually real and turn this into an example with 30 MPC.

Yeah. So if you listen to the ads at the beginning of the show or if you've seen our sponsors in our toolkit, I'm the one selling those deals to all sorts of wonderful companies that make this show possible. And for us, there are areas that we lose deals because we have competitors that are better suited to do certain things. And of course, we win deals because I'm just such a wonderful salesperson. Actually, it's because there are winning zone areas that I teach our customers, hey, these are the things that actually matter the most. And so examples for 30 minutes to President's Club, our winning zone is Armand. I don't know if anyone's told you, we actually are the most popular sales podcast and sales webinar series out there. And so if I can teach a customer, hey, reach really matters and brand prestige, I think we've done a pretty good job with the branding of 30 minutes to President's Club. And you Mr. Or Mrs. Sponsor want to be associated with that. If a customer cares about reach and brand prestige, and I can teach them that that matters. We win deals, Armand. We lose deals. When? I don't know if you've ever seen those, like, really crappy customer panels where it's like, they bring on a marketer and it's, like, designed as, like, a helpful webinar, and it's like, six ways to optimize your lead routing process. And I think a lot of people see those and they're like, I don't want to join those. But we have competitors that do those all the time. And so if our sponsors want crummy panels like that where they host a crappy webinar on the media company's platform, you probably notice audience. We don't do crappy, like, sponsored guest interviews. We lose in that area because our competitors will offer that stuff. And so I need to teach our customers, hey, like, that actually doesn't matter because you're going to have 13 people join that webinar. You do. And then our neutral zone is something that customers care about. But honestly, a lot of the folks in this space do it the same, which is, like, the amount of work it takes to activate on and be successful with the partnership. And I could talk and talk and talk about all the great things that we do here, Armand, for customer success, but frankly, a lot of our competitors do a pretty good job with that also. And so I need to teach our customers, hey, we've got this. We check those boxes. We've got you taken care of there. But that's not the number one thing. And frankly, everyone in this space does a good job. Let's talk about the winning zone. That's how I win deals.

So to recap, let's start to take this stuff into an actual discovery call. So you jump on a discovery call, you set your agenda, and you start doing basic level discovery on their business priorities. Right. Ideally, you ask them why they took the call. And if we continue to use 30 MPC as an example, customers are oftentimes focused on one of a handful of things. They're focused on making sure that everyone knows who they are, which is really an awareness thing. Or they make sure that everyone's really focused on generating demand. In other words, people might know who you are. Right. But we want to make sure that we can capture that intent and capture that demand, which would lead you to buy things like our webinars or our lead list, et cetera. Okay. At this point, I've still not planted the seeds on any competitors. Part of the reason for that is I don't even know if there are competitors yet. I'm just getting their priorities right now. And once I've got their first, second, third tier priorities out, now it's my time to start educating them on all of the things that customers like them will typically evaluate. So I might say something like, Mr. And Mrs. Prospect, here's what I'm hearing. You mentioned A, B and C were important to you. Typically when you're evaluating any sort of media partnership, sponsorship, etc. A, B and C, to your point, are pretty important. But also D and E typically come in as well. And now I'm taking their priorities and I'm expanding those priorities. In other words, I'm doing what we oftentimes call setting up the board. I'm setting up the board how they should consider evaluating a space. And then at this point, very, very early on, you need to start to probe them and ask them to what extent are you familiar with other sales media sponsorships? Or have you worked with a solution like us before? Or have, hey, have you taken a look at other proposals from some of our competitors? I need to know this stuff early in the deal cycle, on the first call, because that is going to tell me if I'm fighting a battle against someone else and I need to push them to the winning zone or if I can win the deal just by solving their top three priorities.

Competitors are not. You're standing out as somebody that actually adds value in the sales process. And so now that I've done this, I can actually start to ask trap questions where I lay traps for my competitor, where at 30 minutes to President's Club, I will start to teach the customer via questions about things that our competition can't do. So let's make this real, Armand. You know, we do podcasts, we have webinars, we've got a newsletter. We create content with our sponsors. And so I'll ask my customer a question. I'll say, hey, you know, by the way, how familiar or are you with podcast advertising? Innocuous question. And most prospective sponsors are like, you know, I've looked at it in the past, or I've done it once or twice in the past, or I've never done it. Doesn't really matter what they say. I want to hear what they know. And then what I can do is I can start to teach them and I can say, well, that's great to hear. You know, one thing that I found in my experience, selling all of this is that podcast ads really don't work well when you don't have other media advertisements to support them. And so one of the things we'll do here at 30mpc is we'll promote you on our podcast and our webinars and our newsletter, et cetera. And what I've done here now is I have laid a trap for the podcasts that we compete against. And so now when my prospective sponsor goes and talks to a sales podcast that doesn't have the webinars and the newsletter and all of these other things, they seem bare bones.

The way that you can turn that into a trap question. If you want the prospect to come to that conclusion, let's say you're second in the evaluation. Maybe they know something about your competitor that they're evaluating. We'll call it the Sales Goon podcast. I'll typically say, hey, sales goon is really, really awesome. They've got an awesome podcast and that's the main thing that they do. I'm curious, how do you go about capturing the demand from all of the podcast ads that they're running? And nine times out of 10, if we're competing against a podcast only player, they have no way of capturing the demand because you right now are probably listening in your car and we have no idea who you are. And that's why we have things like the newslet. We can get to know you a little bit better and actually figure out who you are and send you wonderful content. And our sponsors love that too. So thank you for supporting our newsletter, folks, because you're helping us beat competitors. So figure out the competitor that you're going against, put them in a bucket, and then ask thoughtful questions outside of that bucket, curiously. So to recap, we found their priorities. Let's say there were three of them. We expanded those priorities to five if they missed a couple in our winning zone. And then what we did is we figured out what wasn't important to them and we said that's what our competitors are great at. And we did that all without badmouthing them. And so we're doing all of this by building the perception that we are purpose built for you as a prospect. And then once this is done, you're gonna do what we always do at 30 mpc at the end of a call, which is you're gonna run the five minute drill and you're gonna ask the first question of the five minute drill, which is, do you wanna buy? And the way that typically sounds is like, hey, I know you're looking at XYZ competitor, you can be completely honest, like, we've brought customers over from them. There are times where other folks are looking for more of that type of solution. I'm curious, where do you stand? And usually on the first call, they won't drop their evaluation of the other competitors. And so before they leave, they might give you a preference that they like you, or they might say it's still a toss up and they need more information. Regardless, what you need to do is you need to start skewing their evaluation early in the process, which is why on the first call, you need to figure out if you're in a competitive battle. And what you want to do is you want to plant landmines as they evaluate the other competitors. And so you're going to take those same priorities that they said were important to them, and then you're going to taper them to the winning zone and you're going to say things like, hey, when you go and look at that competitor, there are a couple of things, based on what you've told me that I would really make sure, regardless of who you look at are on your checklist. Look for this, this and this. And now they're going into these other demos, barreling into our competitors losing zones. And I've armed them with the things that will start to make the other demos make us look better as opposed to the other way around.

And the really credible way that you can do this also is if you know something your competitor loses at or if you've got a piece of dirt right, they just had a massive outage and a bunch of their customers lost access to the system for two weeks. You don't want to like directly be like, oh my gosh, let me tell you about this. You might say, I heard this, it might have changed. I'm not totally sure. It helps sometimes to be a little bit indirect about this because what you're doing is you're saying, hey, this might not actually be right anymore. Oh, you know, they used to not be able to do that. That might have changed. And so you should ask them. I'm not totally sure anymore. You're so much more credible when you do that and you're like, oh, let me tell you, they don't do this. Because if they actually do one of those things and you are like, they don't do that, boom, all your credibility is gone. So, Armand, let's actually talk about some other scenarios that you'll run into in competitive battles. One that I've been up Against a ton is when we're doing a rip and replace. And so for a long time, I sold accounting software to law firms. And there was never in the history of my time doing that a law firm that didn't already have an accounting system in place. And so we were always taking that old system out. That company was going to lose this law firm's business and they were going to buy ours. And so a couple things that really helped me win those deals was one immediately in that first meeting figuring out, hey, you guys already have something in place. What's prompting you to even look at changing, It's a big deal to change accounting systems. What is driving this? And so they would start to share, oh, it can't do this, it can't do this, it can't, it can't do this. Okay, great. Well, what do you want it to be able to do? You have to address both the areas that that system in place is missing as well as where they want to go. And then you can teach them about, hey, you want to go here? What about number four and five? You also probably want to go here. And that is how you set the board again with those trap questions, with the teaching, with the recap and the plus one that helps you win those deals. One other thing that really helped me there was I would sell to these law firm CEOs who were terrified of upsetting the law firm partners by buying something that couldn't do what their niche accounting system did today. And one way that you can really help ensure your deals is by giving the customer certainty. And what my customers wanted certainty around here was, hey, we're not going to lose anything, are we? And so that was my way of saying, hey, you know, one thing that a lot of folks are concerned about when they're looking at switching accounting systems is a lot of folks are nervous that they're going to lose stuff that they can do today. And honestly, you're on a sort of niche system. And I've seen it happen before. One thing that might be helpful would be for us to have an in depth call with one of my solutions consultants and let's talk through everything you're doing today. And what I would do is that was an amazing chance for me to get discovery, discovery, discovery, discovery. And if we pulled out one or two things that we couldn't do, Armand, that was okay, because then I could say, hey, we can't do this. But let me tell you how we're going to solve for that gap. And now the customer wasn't nervous around, oh, what are we not going to get? And my competitors would never offer that. And that was how I won those deals.

The other common scenario that you'll run into is there are two types of competitors. There's either the cheap competitor that has bare bones functionality but claims that they do all the things that you do at a third of the price. And then there's the true apples to apples rival competitor where eight of the ten things are exactly the same. Maybe one or two are slightly different. Let's start with the cheap competitor. So when I was at Pave, I competed against a lot of cheap legacy players and you'd get these companies that would be looking at a 15k quote and I'd be quoting them 60. And the number one most important thing that you need to get across is I want you to think of the time that you bought a really nice premium shirt, for example, and you felt the fabric, you felt the packaging, it all looked amazing, it fit great. It lasted you a year plus. And then you bought the $5 shirt and it still had sleeves. It was probably the same color. Maybe before the first wash it looked good, but then the seams started to tear and then the color started to fade and then it started to look dusty and then you realize the tag was itchy or the comfort wasn't totally there. And it's all the things that wouldn't ever show up on a feature for feature checklist, but it's the cost of buying a $5T shirt. And so with customers, the talk track that I would typically use is I would say, like, look, there are different types of companies and there are different types of customers, right? We're the type of company where we believe that you should put money into the model and we invest a lot more in R and D and all these things. And the reason for that is we don't require any of these, like hacky workarounds in our product. If there is ever a workingaround that's required, we have a fully staffed CSM team that's going to help you do that stuff, right? And if you look at their site, oftentimes they're missing things that don't fundamentally break the functionality, but they're missing things that end up being done by you. And that's okay. That is a way to save money, is you can take on the work and throw humans at it instead of throwing dollars at it. And that is totally fine. But we believe that teams typically want to have more lean, efficient teams instead of just having people do Manual tasks that a piece of software could use. And that is totally okay because there are other companies that are more cost conscious that are willing to hire folks in lower cost areas to do that type of stuff. But that didn't strike me as the type of conversation that we were having. Right. And so what you want to do is you want to make it clear that the money's coming from somewhere. It's coming from our pocket or your pocket. Number two is if you run into an Apples to Apples competitor. So if you're running into an Apples to Apples or rival competitor, this is really where the best sales process wins. Specifically, the best sales process typically wins in terms of who gets higher first. If you can get to power and you can get the person at power aligned on vision early, oftentimes these people are making their decisions or they're anchoring early on in your sales cycle. So competitive battles are very, very, very frequently won and lost at the top. But Nick, there are a couple other things that you can do in your sales cycle in these stickier situations to tilt the odds in your favor. What are some of those things?

Here are some things that I've seen work in the past. The first is get on site, either you or them. What that means is you get on an airplane or you get on a train, or you get on your electric bicycle. Armand. And you go to the customer's headquarters. I've seen times when execs will also come on and they will go visit the customer on site. And what that does is one, you're going to have organic connections. Two, you're going to have great opportunities for discovery. Three, you are showing with your actions that winning their business matters and this matters to customers. So you go on site or you do the inverse. And I've seen this one work almost better where you invite the key stakeholders at your prospects company to come on site to your HQ and you want to make sure that you put on a good show that day. We would do this a lot. When I was selling the law firm accounting software, we'd say, hey, we're going to bring your managing partner and CFO first class flights, we're putting you at a great hotel and we're going to have you meet with our head of product, we're going to have you meet with our CEO, we're going to have you meet with our head of customer success and we are going to teach you about the vision and the mission and where this company is going. And all of that was aligned to what mattered to the customer. And when you have a show like that, again, you've proved to this customer that we want your business. And so to that end, again, if you can't get on site or if they won't come on site still, you should be trying to set your customer up with your execs. If they care about the future of the technology, of what they're buying, and they should. If you've got a good future of where you're going, hey, customer, a lot of folks want to know about where this product is going. And I actually was talking to our head of product yesterday, and she'd actually like to speak with you and give you a sense of what you can expect in the next couple years. Wow, now there's a relationship that gets formed there. And again, you're showing, hey, our execs want to meet with you. You matter to our top of the team. And this worked for me so well, Armand, when one of my biggest competitors was Thomson Reuters, which is a massive company, and I was working at a company of 400 people. And so Thomson Reuters CEO wasn't going to meet with the 57 attorney law firm, but our CEO would. And so I would teach them, hey, a connection with an exec is usually important for a relationship with like this. Would you like to meet our CEO? And when our competitor couldn't, boom, that was egg on their face.

The last bit is, it doesn't just have to be people within your organization that are helping you sell. So not only are you getting help from your sales leaders, you're matching power with power with your CEO. You should be pulling in your product team, but you can pull people outside of your company, namely customers, and pull in references for competitive deals earlier than you would normally pull in references on any other deal. I traditionally believe that references should be pulled in at the end of a deal cycle. Competitive deals are one of the few exceptions where if you can pull in someone who has ripped off of another competitive solution and come to you, you will totally skew the battleground. From the beginning, it's about who can catch the lead first, who can bring in the exec first, who can get to power first, who can get the landmine planted before the first demo. Because competitive decisions like we made the point at the beginning of this episode, are made in the beginning of a sales cycle. So stack the cards in your favor early on, because if you do all this stuff at the end, you're totally out of luck because your competitors probably already beat you to the punch.

So, Armand, we've done all this work, we've taught our customer about the things that should matter to them. We've pivoted to the winning zone, we've planted these landmines, we've brought our execs on site. And now it comes down to the 11th hour. I'm biting my fingernails, my stomach's trip churning. It is time to negotiate when a competitor is also present in the deal. Teach me, my friend, I will teach you.

No problem, my friend. So step number one, before you step into a negotiation, you need to quote, unquote, rate yourself on how you did in Discovery. In other words, you need to evaluate the leverage of how effectively you sold into your winning zone. The way that you can do this is by asking that first question of the five minute drill after every single call. Do you want to buy? Do you want to buy? Do you want to buy? You're looking at other competitors. How are you feeling now? Ask them after the first Discovery call and you'll get a sense if you're hitting on the right problems. Ask them after the first demo. You'll get a sense of apples to apples, demo for demo. If you got even better after that, get to power and ask power as well. And so those are three places. Problem, alignment, solution alignment, and power alignment, that you can ask that question. And if you're getting green lights all the way through, you should be able to tell if you've already got this deal in the bag. They should tell you if you are the vendor of choice before you even get to the negotiation. And that's the last way I'll give you that you can ask that question is you can say, hey, independent of price, knowing we're not the cheapest, if it were not up to price, which solution would you pick? And if they tell you it's you, now it's just a matter of aligning how much more valuable you are than your competitor with the commercial terms. So from that point on, you step into a negotiation and you should know if you're going against the 10k competitor or the 50k competitor. And if it's a 50k versus a 50k deal and you're already vendor of choice, you better not discount very much, folks.

So one of the things that's frequently going to happen in these competitive deals when you get to the end is your prospect will try to put you on the back foot by shocking you or surprising you by saying, you know, Nick, I like what you guys have, but I'm talking to somebody else and they're only 15 grand and you guys are 50 grand? Like, I just. Can you do better? I don't think that's going to work. And what they want you to do is start going right to the price stuff. We actually should be pushing them away. And the way that you can do this while also teaching them about why they need to pay a higher price, is to go back to explaining the model. And so your response here is like, of course they're less expensive. They usually come in much, much less than us. Do you mind if I explain to you why there is that price delta? And then what I can go back to here is I can talk about the thing that you mentioned earlier, Armand, where they're less expensive because they've pulled money out of that model where you customer are going to be doing manual work, compiling reports. And if that's what you want to do, that actually is the route you should go. And what I'm doing is I'm pushing them away by saying, if that's what matters most to you, go that direction. But there's a reason that that price is lower.

And at this point, what should happen is you should now have some sort of agreement where they say, hey, I get it, you bring value above that 10k solution, but it's not 50k. And what you now need to do is you need to continuously pull them up and you need to say, like, look, we're not going to be at 10k. I think we're both in line that there's stuff that we bring above that solution. This is what our other customers are paying. I'm curious, what did you have in mind? And if people come in the middle of the striking zone when they're at like 30k or 40k, you've got a serious buyer on your hand. And now you can start to find a number that works for both of you. We're not going to go deep into that here, but we covered a negotiation playbook and you can listen to how to do that on that playbook as well. If they're super, super far off and they're like, well, I could pay 15k. Even though you're 50k, you need to continuously push them away until they say, well, what can you do? Because that's their ultimate sign of they're actually willing to pay more than 15k. And now you can start to throw soft, floated numbers at them, like, look, I might be able to get a four in front of it, but that's only if you can close by this quarter. If you can close by this time, if you can do a case study, etc. That's the end of negotiation, folks. We won't go super, super deep there, but the TLDR is. Use the leverage you had in Discovery, which is where we spent most of our time. Push them back into the losing zone, explain the difference in the models, and then have them justify why they should be paying more for you. And find a number that works. The last bit is around prospecting. So when it comes to prospecting, the only thing you have to remember to do is we talked about the winning zone in discovery and we talked about asking trap questions in Discovery. And if you get a cold call objection saying I'm on a competitor, all you need to know is one trap question or one dart for each of your competitors. So if someone says they're on a paved competitor, I would say totally get it. I should have assumed you had something in place. Hey, real quick, we've had a couple customers switch to us, but my guess is that wouldn't be you because it sounds like you're not doing any sort of equity planning. Is that fair to say? And so I'm just going to use that trap question on my cold calls. And you can also build a cold email snippet off of trap questions as well.

Well, Armand, this has been a really fun one, but we're running out of time and so we got to move to the recap. Give me my recap, my friend.

All right. We talked about the mindset behind handling competitors, which is 50% of deals are going to be won by just being a better seller. 50% are going to be won by properly selling inside of the winning zone and architecting and setting up a of bunch board such that your prospects have a distorted view on what is important. And that view is aligned with what you do well as a business. And that's most of what we discovered in the discovery section, no pun intended, is you start by figuring out what's important to them. Then you expand that to the four or five things that are also in your winning zone. You ask trap questions in your competitors losing zone and then you continuously ask them over and over where they stand in their evaluation. And as they're evaluating your competitors, you're going to plant landmines as they go through the other evaluation that lead the prospect to question your competitors in their losing zone. From there, we talked about other things you can do to tilt the odds in your favor. You're going to win on sales process here, so you're going to win through on sites, you're going to win through power, you're going to win through pulling in executives, you're going to win through references. These are all of the things that don't change the feature by feature checklist, but they change the experience and they're a preface for what you can expect as a customer later on. And then lastly, we talked about negotiation and prospecting, which is basically just using micro versions of what we did in discovery to push people back into the winning zone when they decide to go with a cheap competitor or to ask quick trap questions when getting hit with competitive objections on a cold call or on a cold email. Alrighty, Nick, that's the competitor playbook. How can people help us out here?

Well, Armand, we basically gave away our entire sales process and we taught folks about why 30 MPC wins for our sponsors. And so if you know anybody that wants to advertise with 30 minutes to President's Club and get in front of hundreds of thousands of salespeople and sales leaders and actually start some conversations with them and maybe even sell your product to those folks, let me know. Hit me up. We got a link in the show notes to contact us. See you all next week.