Dr. Corey Wilks - How can founders access baseline greatness, self-awareness and clarity in life!

Well, so psychology itself fundamentally is trying to understand why we do what we do, period. Why do we think the way we do? Why do we behave the way we do? How do we get in our own way? How do limiting beliefs or self-sabotaging behaviors, you know, kind of stop us? How, you know, why do some people get anxiety when they try to do public speaking, but then others are really excited by it? Why are some people introverted versus extroverted?

Welcome to the Undefeated Underdogs Podcast. where I unpack and narrate stories of ambitious people who turn obstacles into opportunities. My goal for this podcast is to create a platform to narrate underdog stories and maybe play a small, teeny tiny role in inspiring you. I intend to highlight the underdog mentality and make authentic conversations with people who play the long game, take action with a chip on their shoulder, and convert obstacles into opportunities. Buckle up as I'll be bringing some authentic founders, VCs, community builders, and creators who got underestimated their whole lives, and yet they beat all the odds to become insanely successful. Now today I want to tell you a little bit about our awesome sponsor acquire.com. Selling a business is as tough as building a business. As someone who went through this process once, selling my own startup, I know the pain it takes to get to the end zone. This is where our sponsor shines. Imagine this, You're a founder who's built a solid SaaS product, acquired customers, and generating consistent monthly revenue. The problem is you're not growing for, for whatever reason— lack of focus, lack of skill, or just plain lack of interest— and you feel stuck. What should you do? The story I'd like to hear is you buckle down, somehow reignited the fire, get past yourself and the clichés, and start working on your business rather than just in the business. You start building an audience, move out of your comfort zone to do sales and marketing, and in 6 months you triple your revenue. The reality isn't as simple. Situations may be different for every founder facing this crossroads, but too many times the story ends up being one of inaction and stagnation until the become business— the business becomes less valuable or worse. Worthless. If you find yourself here, or your story is likely headed down a similar road, I offer you a third option. Consider selling your business on acquire.com. Capitalizing on the value of your time is a smart move. Acquire.com is free to list, and they've helped hundreds of founders already. Go to try.acquire.com/sharath and see for yourself if this is the right option for you. Now let's get into today's episode. Welcome everybody. I have an amazing high-caliber guest on the show today. First of all, I really appreciate you all for tuning into the Undefeated Underdogs podcast. I do this just because, you know, I'm curious and I hope you find it curious as well. With this episode, I am 100% sure you're going to up your game. Because I have Corey Wilkes. Corey's an established psychologist and executive coach who helps founders overcome their limiting beliefs, revealing what truly matters in climbing the ladder of success in both their personal lives and businesses. People like Chris Williamson, Paul Millard praise Corey for his ability to steer founders in the right direction by unlocking the next level in doing business in a different level way. So I am pumped to have Corey. Corey, welcome to the show. How are you feeling?

I'm good, man. Thanks for having me.

Absolutely. I'm so glad that we connected over Twitter. A brief story, you know, I just, I'm kind of like looking for my next guest list and you popped in my, on my timeline. I'm like, okay, let's, we have to have Corey on the podcast. So I have a lot of things I want to talk about. The first thing I think I'm curious about, why psychology? Like, why? What made you really get into this mental game? Like, you've done a million things, you know, you have so many other choices. Why mind specifically?

So I actually, early on, I hated psychology. I thought it was just, you know, bullshit, basically. Like all, you know, tell me about your childhood or your mother or your relationship, like Freudian type stuff, like the stereotypical lay on the couch and just, you know, talk for hours about, you know, how your mother messed you up or something, or the symbolism of your dreams. Those are fine. They're just, they're, they're not, they're just made up. So I really didn't respect psychology throughout my entire, you know, adolescent life and in early adulthood. Well, I had psychology classes in high school, I had intro psych in college, and I literally slept through my intro psychology class and still got an A. So I was like, this isn't real, like, this, this is just all made up, right? And I finally had one more required psychology class because at one point I was like a business management major because I wanted to go into entrepreneurship. I ended up going into entrepreneurship, but a very roundabout way, like a decade later. And as part of my major, I had one more required psychology class, which was like a developmental psychology class, which is just like psychology across the lifespan, like how we change as we get older. And I was expecting this, you know, like old white dude to come in and just, you know, pontificate for an hour and a half every day. And he's so old and just boring, like chalk just kind of poofs out of his armpits or something. So I just, I wasn't excited. And in walked this young, like early 30s Black dude from Memphis. He didn't speak like a professor. He didn't look like a professor. He was covered in tattoos. He was really casually dressed. And he was like, hey, everybody, my name is Dr. Hinton. I'll be your professor for this class. And I was like, you have my attention because you are not what I was expecting to walk in this door. And he just, he spoke like a real dude from Memphis. He's just, just really real. Like nothing like high you know, highfalutin theory stuff. He's like, here's how psychology actually works and how you can see people as puzzles. And psychology allows you to find the right piece to solve that puzzle for the person in front of you. That day, I left class and changed my major to psychology because of the passion he had and the way he framed the actual function of psychology and the power of understanding human psychology in everything that we do. And then once I I saw that, I was able to see psychology in everything, right? Even, even something like ergonomics and like how we design technology. Um, we design it for humans, right? Like something as simple as like, um, it's less, uh, apparent right now because of touchscreens. But before, when like driving, right? Like your car, the biggest button or knob on the car used to be the volume knob, right?

Mm-hmm.

Because you needed to quickly be able to find the volume to turn it down Right? So like you turn the volume down so you can see better at night, things like that. There's a lot of psychology behind why we do that. But that was why, like, it's like humans suck at operating machinery. So we have to make machinery dumbed down enough so that humans can operate it.

Right?

So that is, that is very firm. Like ergonomics is very firmly rooted in human psychology and how, what humans really suck at and what they're kind of okay at and really building technology to align with that so that that the majority of the population can use things and use them well. So everything from that to like obviously therapy and things, psychology is just sort of in everything that we do in our day-to-day lives. So learning to see that really unlocks a lot of your understanding of people in the world around you.

It almost feels like what you said, almost feels like you can't go back. Once you experience something like an iPhone, you can't go back, right? Like once you experience like an Apple product, you can't go back. So that revelation, so you didn't— it's so fascinating. First of all is that it came deeply within you. Like it's not something that's either forced by someone. So that is so fascinating because a lot of people with these majors, including myself, we've been forced by society because you have to be an engineer, you have to be a doctor, you know, you have to be like, you know, X, you have to be Y, and so on and so forth. So that is really amazing. And the way you molded it, you've talked about puzzles. So if you want to define psychology, is it puzzle solver psychologists? Like in your opinion, what is like, how do you define? And I want to get into the psychology behind designing products. You know, that's amazing as well. That's another topic we can dive into. But Yeah. How do you define psychologists?

Well, so psychology itself fundamentally is trying to understand why we do what we do, period. Why do we think the way we do? Why do we behave the way we do? How do we get in our own way? How do limiting beliefs or self-sabotaging behaviors, you know, kind of stop us? How, you know, why do some people get anxiety when they try to do public speaking, but then others are really excited by it? Why are some people introverted versus extroverted? Is that even an accurate thing because most people are what are called ambiverts, which just means you can go back and forth between the two. Even to, you know, how do we design technology, right? Like, why do we do what we do? The better we can understand that, the better we can make every decision after that, right? Well, we do things this way because we make all these assumptions about how this is how the world works, right? You just said, you know, like, doctors, engineers, things like that. Uh, I hear that a lot from people, and especially like in the entrepreneur space, right? It's like, especially like, obviously like I'm white, so I don't have like an immigrant, um, experience, right?

Mm-hmm.

But the thing I consistently hear from people who are either first generation or, you know, they're, they've immigrated themselves is like, I'm allowed to be a doctor, a lawyer, an engineer, maybe an accountant. And failure. Those are the categories because entrepreneur or like content creator or something isn't one of those categories. It's all under the failure category, right?

Yes.

Um, so that is, so if that is a fundamental belief that you have, then if you're like, well, I really want to be an entrepreneur or I really want to be a writer or a YouTuber or a podcaster or something, it's like, well, my entire family is going to judge me. Even culturally, I may be sort of like an outcast because this isn't what people like me, quote unquote, like me do, that is really going to influence the decisions you make from that point on and the, the internalized stress you might place upon yourself as an— especially like early entrepreneurship when like you don't know what, what, what works and what doesn't. And you're just like, not only is entrepreneurship stressful, but also I have all this like cultural baggage or family baggage and my own stress about it. And I just, I pile on. That can cause a lot of people to abandon a path of being a founder entrepreneur sooner, purely because of the internal sort of dialogue that they're having. So if you understand that, it makes it easier to manage that later down the line of like, this is just an a story I'm telling myself, right? How do I rewrite the story and and create a story that is more empowering to me? How do I surround myself with other people who have different stories, who have different personal narratives, so that we support each other on a very uncertain path. So just, there's so much with psychology, man.

It's basically why, like, why do we think, why do we do things in a certain way? Uh, and you've briefly touched upon introverts versus extroverts. That is always fascinating to me. So I, by birth, I consider myself as an introvert. I'm very shy. You know, like less friends, you know, very, very, very few relationships in my life, which are very important. And that's it. Like no more social life and all that. But when the internet came in into my life, I'm like, okay, I have to up my game. So I am more of like an online extrovert and in-person introvert. If even if you meet me in person, I'll be like very shy. But if you and I were having this conversation, you know, wide, you know, in a broad way. So I always think, you have to let me know if I'm correct or wrong. I always think like introverts carry a lot of limiting beliefs than extroverts. Is that true first? If yes, how do they overcome it? Like one of the most important fundamental things that any entrepreneur, any founder should overcome is Limiting belief on an hour-to-hour basis, I would say. Not even like month to month. It's like every day they doubt themselves, even though regardless of who they are identity-wise, anytime anything can happen. And that actually is like a struggle every founder faces. So in your opinion, again, going back to the question, like, do you think introverts have more self-doubts limiting beliefs than extroverts?

So I wouldn't say they have more. I would say they likely have different limiting beliefs, right? So one, everybody has limiting beliefs to some degree. Like, that's just— it is what it is. Humans, we operate off of what are called heuristics, which are just like mental models of how the world works. Okay, that's a simplified version. A heuristic is rooted in an assumption that we make. So for example, if I identify as an introvert. One, I'm wrapping myself, my identity around a specific label, which is typically, uh, problematic eventually because it just— it, it, it forces you to make a lot of assumptions about yourself. Because I'm an introvert, that means X, Y, and Z. So now you're automatically putting yourself in a box, which makes it really hard to grow or evolve out of, right?

Mm-hmm. But

let's say you identify as an introvert and then you get invited to a party. Immediately, the assumptions you start to make are, this will be draining. People might judge me. I'm probably gonna say something awkward. I'm gonna be awkward. And because you make all these assumptions, then your mental model, the heuristic you have for how that party is going to go, you make all these assumptions in this mental model of, thus, this party's gonna suck. I'm not going to enjoy it. It's going to be a catastrophe, right? I know plenty of people who are extroverts Who their limiting beliefs basically revolve around the discomfort of being alone. So I am around people because I don't like being alone. A lot of introverts are like, I like being alone. I don't like being around other people. Right. But then I mentioned this term before, ambivert.

Hmm.

Ambivert basically is you can go back and forth. Right. So you said like, you know, so I'll use myself as an example. I'm on this podcast right now. I basically flip a switch and I'm on, right? Like I am extroverted for this piece, right? I went to a get-together in Austin the other day with a bunch of other like entrepreneur creator friends. I turned the switch on. I was very, you know, social and I legitimately enjoyed the experience and the energy and the conversations. But then as soon as I got home, I'm like, fuck, I'm hungover. I don't even drink alcohol, but like I feel hungover because it's like an energy hangover, like a social battery. Like my social battery is just drained. Right. drained. I need to just sit on the couch for like 4 hours and just watch TV and do nothing. And my girlfriend, she was even like, you look hungover. I was like, I feel it. Like I had a great time, but I am also exhausted. And these things can exist simultaneously.

Right.

And even like, you know, with you being, you know, quote unquote introverted, more than likely, if you're like most people, uh, you get invited to a party and maybe initially you're like, oh, this will be cool. So you RSVP. RSVP yes. And then the sooner the closer the party gets, you're like, shit, I don't want to go to this party. But then you go to it and you're like, okay, this is kind of cool. I'm probably— I'm not going to be the center of attention. I'm going to find 1 or 2 people and have like a bunch of like side, like small conversations because that allows me to, to better modulate my energy and I'm not like overstimulated. And then once you, you leave, you're like, I'm glad I went, but I'm ready to be alone for the next few days.

Yeah.

That's honestly how most people that I know anyway actually function. But we get wrapped up in this introvert-extrovert identity, and it's like, that isn't as helpful as we want it to be because at the end of the day, you're just human. And even if you line up 100 introverts, they're all going to socialize differently. So

I like that a lot. I think you kind of opened a different door for me because I always go back to this struggle Like you said, exactly, you just described me in the last 3 minutes of your answer. Like, I do enjoy kind of going to, you know, meet people for a meetup or a conference or even friends gathering who I even don't know. Then I kind of mold myself in a way that, hey, let me actually find 1 or 2 people who I can mingle with. That's it. That's the start. And eventually I'll end up meeting so many several people But the expectation is 1 or 2, like that's like the lowest expectation. So this new Amber word is maybe, you know, an identity I have to choose. But talk to me about the identities. Like, again, like if you ask me, quoting James Clear, he says and believes, and I kind of like implemented in my life as well, Identity is everything. You, if you want to become something, you have to be that identity first, and then you'll become eventually, right? You want to become a writer. I'm a writer already. Then I'm taking small steps, micro steps, and I reach the goal. Why do you think, or where do you think people stumble upon when they pick up identities? In what cases, in your opinion, they're like. You know, this is not the way you should think about identities.

So a couple things. One, I think I personally like the idea of making it a verb, not a noun. So like, I write, I am one who writes versus I am a writer, right? And I know that seems like, like semantics, but let me put it this way. If I said, I'll do it this way, who are you? How do you, like, who are you? How do you answer that question?

In this particular mode, I would say I'm a podcaster.

Is that it?

In this context.

Not even in the context. Who are you? Like philosophically, fundamentally, identity politics was like, who are you? How do you answer that question?

I'm a husband. I'm a father. I'm a son. I'm a friend. I coach people. They're like a lot of hats, I would say. Not one.

Exactly.

I can't fit in one.

Exactly right. So, that was my point is a lot of people get tripped up in, let me find the singular identity that fully encompasses me. That becomes highly problematic because, you know, we are not one-dimensional beings, right? Like we are all multidimensional, right? Like you said, like I can be a father, a son, a spouse, a this, a writer, a podcaster, a business owner. Like you can be all these things. And the beauty of that, having a much more flexible or multi-identities Is, so think of it like sports athletes. Okay. If I fundamentally identify as a football player, whatever kind of football, American, UK, it doesn't

matter.

Football player. Okay. If I get catastrophically injured and can no longer play my sport, who am I? My identity has historically and rigidly been, I am a football player. Who are you if you are a football player who can no longer play football? So that's why a lot of athletes have these huge identity crises after like a career-ending injury, because they wrapped their entire identity around a singular description of who they were. So then they left themselves no room to grow, adapt, evolve, anything. Right. But if, if you have these multiple ways of describing yourself in different facets of life and business, if one changes, that's okay. Because you have these others, right? The real issue with identity that I see is when you use identity, whether knowingly or unknowingly, as a crutch, right? So, and I know this is, this could be controversial. It is what it is. Take it with a grain of salt. I am a psychologist. I am not the end-all be-all psychologist. So feel free to disagree. Something like with ADHD, right? More and more people you're seeing identify as having ADHD. Which is is great in that it's great to know how to describe yourself, right? And and having educational resources or formal diagnosis to kind of explain why you you do certain things, good or bad. One thing that I consistently see from people is they say, "Yeah, I've got ADHD," or "Yeah, I am ADHD," and that's why I can't do X, Y, or Z. And it's like you have now you're using this as a crutch. To, as, as an excuse to not even attempt certain things. Oh, I can't be organized because I have ADHD. Okay. If instead you saw it as a series of skills deficits, meaning how much practice have you put in with organizational skills? How much practice have you put in with impulse control, with this, with that? You may still really struggle for sure, but if you see it as a skill you can practice, It makes it significantly more approachable. But a lot of people, they wrap their identity around, I am this singular thing. And like when you talk to them in conversation, like it always comes back around to them having ADHD, right? And I'm picking on ADHD because it's very prevalent for me, right, in some of the spaces I see right now. But everything is rooted back in ADHD. And it's like, that is a very limited way to see yourself and the world around you and how you can show up in it, regardless of how true it is of of how severe your ADHD is or is not, again, formally or just self-diagnosed, that is all irrelevant. The fact that you are wrapping everything around this one identity and you're forcing yourself into the singular box of I have ADHD, I am an ADHDer, that is so confining for you as an individual, as a multidimensional person, that it makes it very, very difficult for you to ever be anything more than that because you're not giving yourself permission to be anything more than that. But the The same thing happens again, like if you're a writer or YouTuber and like that's fundamentally how you identify, or if you're an entrepreneur and your business, you know, you have to, you go bankrupt or the business doesn't work out or something else, you wrapped your entire identity around that. Who are you now? What are you now? That makes it really, you know, I hear from founders sometimes who are like, I almost have PTSD because I grew this business and then I had to declare bankruptcy. I had to fire everybody. I was responsible for like helping them pay their mortgages and support their families. And I disappointed them, like I let them down. So now I really want to start a new business, but I'm so afraid to because of this over here, because now I have the identity of I am a business failure. Well, how can a business failure succeed in business? So you have to learn to reshape your identity into something much more powerful, much more empowering, much more flexible, so that it can continue to grow as you grow and evolve. It's a very complex process.

I think I hear you in a way that limits us. Identities, you know, if you take identities that in a way limits you, it's wrong for you, right? Like you said, I think I can relate to a little bit about being a founder. I sold my SaaS startup before. Now I'm not doing anything. And a lot, many times I feel like, I'm not building the business I built before because I tied my identity around that founder identity. Like, you know, and whatever I do, I want to either blow it up, like this should blow up, I have a high expectation, or I do a terrible job launching some random things or building some random things. So the question I have for you, I think you also mentioned about practice, which will help you break boundaries in a way, which will help you break identities. What is the solution, Corey? What do you think the solution is for first-time founders entering into second time? Like you said, people who are building businesses doing the same thing again, what do you think they need to adapt in the second run, not falling into the identity trap? How do they become successful when they do like this multiple, you know, shots, when they shoot multiple shots?

So one of the beauties of, you know, shots on goal, right, of like the more, the more reps you get, the more times you attempt something, the better you get, is because every time you launch something, every time you publish something, whatever, that is an opportunity to learn, get feedback, and iterate for the next shot on goal that you take, right? You know, there's, you know, there are these, these memes around how like first-time founders really focus on like branding and all this other shit that ultimately doesn't ever matter. And the second-time founders are like, they really focus on like the, the marketing aspect or like, you know, making a product people want to use, things like that. Like, because you, you learn of like, man, I thought, All this other stuff was important, but through just taking multiple shots, I learned what actually mattered and what didn't. What was you know like just there's this idea of performative productivity of I'm doing something that feels productive, that looks productive, but ultimately just isn't productive in that it isn't producing the desired outcome I am intending to produce. Oh, you know, man, I just spent all day working. I'm working on, you know, my, my, my branding or like what font or what color palettes I'm going to use. None of that shit matters. It just, it straight up doesn't. One, it rarely ever matters, period. 2, if it ever does matter, it doesn't matter in the beginning. And if it eventually does matter, you can always change it if you don't like it. Large companies rebrand all the time, right?

Absolutely.

But a lot of first-time founders, whether VC, bootstrap, whatever, Really get caught up in playing business instead of doing business, because playing business is fun. Thinking again, like what hex code are we going to use? We're going to build our website on. What about what's our packaging? Also, that that's fun. It's just fun. Like even me, I love I love copywriting. I love building landing pages, and it is so and and I love curriculum design and and and things like this. I love. But too many times I've spent days or weeks building out a landing page that I thought was genius, building out this long, just huge curriculum that was like all-encompassing. And then I go to launch it and it launches to crickets because it's like, oh shit, I never actually tried to talk to customers or potential customers to see what did they want, what did they not want, right? But as you continue to either build your current company or build future companies, like, okay, let me de-risk this as much as possible. Let me validate as quickly as possible and iterate as quickly as possible. But you only learn that in a way that it sinks in because like you can read business books and everything, everything works in theory, right? Like everything you read in a business book, it all works in theory. But actual entrepreneurship tends to be very messy, especially early on. Right. And I think that these lessons are things that like every entrepreneur comes back to over and over again. But they have to learn. I think a lot of people have to learn it the hard way because— so it's kind of like coaching or therapy, really. So let's say you're working with me for some like executive coaching stuff. One thing a lot of people want is— what people think they want is to be spoon-fed answers. So you're like, hey, Corey, I'm really struggling with this. Should I go left or should I go right? You think you want me to tell you, oh, dude, just go left.

Hmm.

But the reality is, and again, when I was, you know, early in grad school studying therapy, this is a mistake a lot of early practitioners make, is they'd be like, okay, yeah, I think you should go left. Well, then you're like, I don't know, I kind of like, I kind of want to go right. And it's like, okay, go right. Well, you know, left is also kind of cool too. If I just tell you, if I spoon-feed you what to do or what I think you should do, one, I don't know your business well enough to make that decision for you for sure. Never outsource decisions like that in your business. But the other thing with it is I have now robbed you of the ability to have ownership over your decision because I made the decision for you. Because you don't own it, it doesn't resonate with you. You haven't fully adopted it into yourself. So, you're not going to be as invested in that versus if I say, okay, well, what is your thinking about going left versus right? Right. And then I guide you and I facilitate your own ability to make the best decision for you from you. Well, now whatever decision you make, you fully own because you came to that conclusion yourself. That is really, really powerful. So, so that is why I think with entrepreneurship, you just, you have to go through the shit and be like,

okay. By yourself.

Yeah. Like, I, I, I now, I read this in a book 3 years ago, but it never really like sunk in until I experienced not accepting that advice. Now, I know that that is like, that is definitely the route to go because I've lived it and now it is my truth.

It's basically like, you know, actions are far, far, far more better than theory, right? You read, you consume, but it only helps. I think there's a difference between knowledge and information. You know, knowledge is, you know, taking action. Information is just consuming, like, you know, what you know from others. Speaking about decision-making, do you have any mental models that you suggest founders, unconventional, that in your opinion, you know, not read anything before, but came from your own experience working with a lot of other founders as an executive coach?

Yeah, so one really simple one. Well, I'll give you 2. So one, I am a big fan of the Stoic concept of memento mori. And memento mori basically just means remember death or remember you will die, right? And it isn't meant to be depressing so much as how can you use your mortality as a motivator to live fully? I don't think you can see in this frame, but I've got a skull and raven, symbols of memento mori over here. Mm-hmm. My whole right tattoo sleeve is dedicated to memento mori. Mm-hmm. And one question I, I really, I personally use all the time and I use with a lot of my clients is, if this had been your last week alive, are you satisfied with how you spent your time? The reason this is way more helpful than most versions of this question, like if you had 30 days to live, what would you do? That's kind of bullshit because if you know it's going to happen, then you can like party it up, go on vacation, skydive. You can just go out with a bang, right? That isn't helpful. If instead you say, I have already lived what will have been my last 7 days. Am I sad? I can't change anything now. All I can do is look back. So looking back, am I satisfied with how I spent my time? Obviously, I want more time, but if I'm out now and can do nothing to change it, am I satisfied? And the reason that is really powerful is you instantly can say yes or no. Most people say no, like I'm not satisfied. And it's like, okay, cool. Why are you saying no? What specific things happened this last week that are causing you to say no? Well, I was in a bunch of bullshit meetings that didn't need to be meetings. Oh, well, I was working on a bunch of shit that wasn't aligned with how I wanted to show up in the world with my values. I wasn't, you know, doing— I was chasing things that didn't matter to me, right? I was doing what I thought I was expected to do by society, right? All these, you know, I got too caught up in doing meetings or spending time trying to quote unquote my LinkedIn rather than spending time with my family or working on whatever, right? Versus if you say, yes, I am satisfied. It's like, cool. Why are you satisfied? Well, because I was building my company in a way that was aligned with my values. I truly believe that the thing I'm building is really going to help a lot of people. I spent a lot of time with my loved ones, with my friends, really working on things that I'm very passionate about. Yes, the things I'm working on are very hard. But I am so passionate and it is so intrinsically rewarding to me that this is the kind of hard that I love to embrace. I am satisfied with how I spent my last week alive if this had been it. That is an incredibly clarifying exercise. Like I said, I literally, I just, I do it every week because any week that the answer is no, I'm like, fuck, what did I do? How do I remove as much of that shit as I can so that next week my answer will be yes? Because eventually, This is reality. We're all going to be asked that question one day and it will have been our last week, right? And that is my thing, man, is like doing meaningful purpose-driven work that fulfills you, building a values-aligned life and business. That is everything that I do personally and everything that I help founders and entrepreneurs do. Because what's the point of anything else? Like that's it, right? Like you get this life and then, you know, sans a couple religions that believe in multiple lives, right? Other than that, this is all you have, right? So there's that. And then related to that, as far as like the values work, 2 questions I ask people that a lot of people think they can answer, but actually really struggle to articulate in the moment. One is, well, just together they are, fundamentally, What do you give a shit about and why do you give a shit about it? And the reason I ask it crudely, like cussing with that, is if I say, what do you really care about? What's really important to you? You're going to be like all intellectual and rationalized. Like, well, this is really important for the world. Like, no, no, no. If you and I are just sitting around like a campfire or a bar or something like came in, like fundamental, like what do you give a shit about?

Right.

That changes It bypasses all the intellectualism and it just, it forces you to have a gut response of like, fundamentally, this is what is critical to me. This is what I deeply believe needs to exist in the world because the absence of this existing in the world is detrimental to the world, right? This is the impact. This is the legacy I want to build. This is what meaningful purpose-driven work that is values-aligned to me looks like. What do you give a shit about and why do you give a shit about it will clarify so much than the majority of self-help books you're going to read around clarifying what actually matters to you.

Man, I've always practiced this question most of my time, most of the days, which is if this were to be your last day in your life, what would you do? That is a powerful question as well because you're giving yourself an opportunity to Do everything that's really, really important. Like in your words, like what do you care really today? Because at the end of the day, you're going to die. But what you said is actually even more powerful because the fact that you can't change anything kills you. And it also allows you to do better because you still have time. If we can't take anything for granted, but yes, you have more time. Now you have an opportunity. It's a choice. That is so powerful. I just want to acknowledge that because that is so damn powerful. I just, I just want to implement it like, you know, right, right onwards now. And, and so one thing, so all these questions are really good. They're amazing. What I think that many people fail is, even though they ask themselves the question, is the courage to take action upon the next step. Like, in this moment, you get your answer, but that's not the solution. You have to act upon it. So talk to me about the courage aspect of building a successful life, whether it is personal, business, whatever it is. How do you train founders or encourage founders to like take it to the next level?

Courage to me is a lot like motivation in that I don't really talk about it. I don't optimize for it. It is a fleeting emotional state that is really, really hard for most people to capture. You can't schedule it. You can't rely on it. Sometimes it's there, sometimes it isn't, right? And going back to like identity stuff, a lot of people do identify as overly courageous. So when you try to tell people like, hey, you, here's how to, to, to have more courage, you're like, ah, that seems really hard. That seems beyond somebody like me, right? Or they, they read an article about 10 ways to build your courage and then they read it and they don't do shit with it. I look at it more as conviction.

Hmm.

How much conviction do you have that this thing needs to exist? And the reason for that, I'll do it this way. I do a lot around like core values work. Okay? Most people can get to like their top 2 to 3 values, but I'm a huge fan of just like a singular core value that encompasses everything else. So I'll use myself as an example. My core value is freedom. And what most people, when they go through these exercises, I have a bunch, but what most people run into is initially when you try to clarify your core value, It feels really selfish at first. So like with me, one of the reasons my core value is freedom, that means I don't like wearing, I never want to wear khakis and a polo ever again. I had to when I had a regular job. I never want to do that ever again in my life. I hate having a boss. I like being able to just go down, you know, at noon or something and like make lunch with my girlfriend. But if I'm in an office, I don't ever, I'm not trying to make small talk with people. I don't give a shit about eating a bag lunch or Or something, right? I never want to have to do that again. That's really selfish. Of course, I want to just make money in my pajamas. Who doesn't? Okay. But digging deeper beyond just the selfish reasons, for me, I fundamentally believe that too many people live a life of mediocrity. Mediocrity defined as not living up to your personal potential, however you define I believe too many people live in mediocrity because they let fear and other limiting beliefs stop them from doing the work that resonates with them. And then they get to the end of their life, memento mori, they get to the end of their life and they look back on their life filled with regret because they're like, damn, I wish I would have done X, Y, or Z. Okay. So the selfish version of my core value is I just want to wear pajama pants all day and just, or gym clothes all But the selfless, the deeper selfless meaning behind my core value of freedom is I want to facilitate the freedom of others because I deeply believe too many people let fear stop them from living a fulfilling life. Okay?

Right.

That is a much deeper level of it, right? So, if you can answer these questions to clarify your own core value, to clarify fundamentally what you give a shit about and why do you give a shit about it? That gives you a sense of conviction of it isn't about me anymore. It's about other people. It is about the world, right? Very, very concrete, very basic example. Let's say you go to a restaurant and the server gets your order wrong. You might be like, oh, I really struggle with confrontation. I'll just— it's fine. It's fine. Don't worry about it. I don't, I don't want to make anybody upset. But if your friend or your child, if they get their order wrong, Mm-hmm. And especially if that friend or child has like a food allergy, because like, I can't do gluten. If they have a food allergy, you're like, hey, they cannot have this. This isn't what they ordered. Like, you don't have to be rude about it, but you're very much like you go into this like protective mode,

right?

Because you're not thinking about yourself anymore. You're thinking about somebody else. Conviction is rooted in an awareness and compassion for others and what other people need. So I don't really talk much about courage. I'm much more a fan of how can you develop the conviction that this is worth pursuing?

In other words, can you? Do you want to call it purpose?

You can.

And I truly believe in this, which is if your purpose involves others, most likely you will win because you're doing or you're stretching yourself. You're making other people's life better. You know, making an impact in all that. Like whatever again. whatever field it is, whatever, you know, background you come from. And it's not always, it is not always like a straight line when you have that purpose, right? Like, or conviction, say for example, you're always not 100%. The battery is not always full. Your battery will go down. And how do you help founders or how do you suggest founders to charge it back to 100%? Do you have some ways or some exercises? It seems like you have a lot of immediate exercises or questions that ask people and they can amp up their conviction. So do you want to share anything on that note?

Sure. Yeah. I mean, fundamentally, my role as an executive coach is to ask questions and to offer mental models, right? My job isn't to spoon-feed your answers. You have to come to your own truth. Um, so a couple things with burnout, right? Which is effectively what we're talking about, right? Like, how do you avoid burnout? Um, because burnout is when you go too long without recharging, right? Uh, most things you read about burnout just are not helpful. They're like, get a mani-pedi, go to the spa, read a book. Like, that, that isn't just very, very helpful.

Treat yourself. Treat yourself.

Yeah,

that's,

that's very rarely is that actually helpful.

Right.

The biggest key for me is before you— let's just take like a phone, for example, or any sort of actual battery that you're using. Most of the time, before you can effectively recharge a battery, you have to unplug it from the thing that is draining it, right? With a couple of rare exceptions, like some batteries, whatever, like nuance. But in general, The simplest way to start to recharge a battery is to disconnect it from the thing draining it. Okay? Whatever the things are that you feel are draining your energy, those are the first things to try to disconnect from. Whether that means outsourcing those things, right? If you're a founder, you have a team, that is definitely part of it, right? The whole Eisenhower matrix. Can you outsource to people or technology or some of that kind of shit? Like every founder should anyway know about Eisenhower matrices and just basic stuff like that, right? If you don't, you can easily Google it. That is a very simple thing. But beyond that, it can also include disconnecting fully from all of that stimulation and high-level decision-making you have to do on a day-to-day basis, right? I don't necessarily mean take a week-long vacation every month or something. Although obviously, like, if you, if you have the infrastructure in place for you to disengage often, that, that can be something really interesting. Right. Because even people like Bill Gates, right? Like, he's famous for his, like, think weeks or whatever. He would just, like, go to a cabin in the woods with just books and read a bunch and then come out with, like, huge breakthroughs and things. That's super helpful. But I'm a huge fan of finding practices, creating practices to cultivate stillness. That can be something as simple as every day for a half hour, you take a walk just by yourself. Not listening to a podcast. If you want to listen to music, that's fine, but like nothing to where there is input. Okay, finding a way to disconnect from everything so that you can just kind of be like mentally still and just kind of let your mind wander and problem solve on its own and just be understimulated is a very undervalued, incredibly powerful exercise that in my opinion. Every founder should build into their day or at the, at the bare minimum, their week. Okay. If this is, if you do it once a week, I would probably extend it to like an hour or 2, like on the weekends or something. Preferably though, you're, it's just part of your day. Like every day for a half hour or an hour or whatever, you go on a walk or you do, you meditate, whatever that is, whatever works. Okay. Mm-hmm. Um, it sounds really, really simple. So simple it shouldn't work. But it is legitimately one of the most powerful things you can do as a founder, as an entrepreneur, because fundamentally your value to your company is how you think. And that includes the strategies, the plans, the how you execute, all that other stuff, right? Your true value is how you think. So protecting and creating an environment for you to think Your best is the highest leverage thing you can ultimately do outside of hiring a shit ton of people and putting the right people in place, right? That is very, very powerful. So I would find ways of disconnecting first off so that you can cultivate that stillness. You can come back even better. Things like that, right? And then beyond that, obviously doing things specifically that can recharge you. So like you know, for me, I do martial arts. I love Brazilian jiu jitsu. I do it. 4 or 5 times a week for like 2 to 3 hours a day. That is just my evening routine. So I work all day and then I train and that really, really helps recharge me for the next day, right? I'll read, I'll hang out with friends, I'll do other things because otherwise, like, what is the point of building something if you don't enjoy the process of building it? Yeah. There are easier ways of making as much or sometimes even more money just getting a regular job. Why are you, why are you dealing with all the stress and the emotional roller coaster being a founder if you don't actually enjoy building shit?

Right.

So, so finding ways of disconnecting, of recharging that will help you stay in this industry far longer. Because if you burn out, you stop showing up. Go ahead.

Right. I love that. I love the fact that you're I love the word stillness. In however it is, some people meditate, some people run, some people listen to music, some people cook, some people clean. Like however way it is that makes your mind calm. And I love the fact that in order to recharge, you have to disconnect first. You know, disconnect from a lot of things, right? And To add to your point, just spending random or doing random things, random shit also involves a mental charge, right? Like it basically drains you as well because it's not that easy. Treat yourself is not easy. You have to invest a lot of time. There's a lot of decision-making. But the simplest things like walking and doing nothing, I love that. I kind of like want to practice that I used to meditate, but I think this is a great nudge for me. So, appreciate you for telling that. Another thing—

One more thing real quick before you get to the next point. Another really powerful thing that cultivating stillness does is it moves you from being reactive to being proactive. Okay? And what I mean by that is a lot of founders, you just go from putting out one small fire after another, after another. You're constantly in reactive mode. We, as humans, we do not make nearly as effective of a decision when we are being reactive. Cultivating stillness allows you to disengage from that constant reactivity to be able to get ahead and proactively say, okay, what is our next move? What do we need to do after the fact? That gives you the mental space to just kind of breathe. accurately evaluate everything and not feel like you have to make a split decision to really think through and really make the best decision possible. So if, if for no other reason, like if you legitimately care about your company, finding ways of switching from being reactive to proactive, right? Right. And again, cultivating stillness is a very effective way to do that. That will make you as effective as you can be and set your business up To be as successful as it can be. I just want to add that. Go ahead.

Yeah, I love that. I want to talk about one thing you said. You know, it's a fact: majority of people in this world live in a mediocre way. You know, for lack of awareness, lack of opportunity, lack of coaching, lack of support, whatever it is the reason, they just live. You know, not an ambitious way, but like mediocre way. So in your opinion, in your experience coaching these founders, how do you push people to find greatness? What are some things that you do to them that makes them feel like they're not living a mediocre life, but they're actually fulfilling something?

So one, I think by default, The majority of people want to be great or pursue greatness. The issue is we pile on a lot of limiting beliefs that try to discourage us from either pursuing greatness or giving ourselves permission to pursue greatness. Okay? This is honestly, this is why so much like empty motivational bullshit and like motivational speakers and things, this is why they do so well. Because all they're doing is being like, yeah, you can be great. And everybody in the audience like, I want to be great secretly, right? Regardless of my insecurities, like, I deep down, I want to be great, but I, I see more obstacles than opportunities. Basically, that's the majority of the self-help entire industry is just telling people like, hey, actually, you can be great. The thing that I do is I kind of just, I assume also like when people come to me, like it's because they're like, I either I'm doing well and I want to do better or I'm in some way not doing as well as I want. Right. That's fundamentally why people come to me. A lot of times I make the assumption that you want to be great and that you fully have the potential to be great, but there is a disconnect. Either you lack clarity on what it takes, like what you need to do specifically to become great, or you have limiting beliefs or self-sabotaging behaviors that are preventing you from greatness. That's, that's really where I come in of like, how do we remove the thing that is getting in your way? Lack of clarity, some other obstacle, something. Um, because once you remove that, people generally are well equipped to go on and pursue greatness. It's just that is the issue is that a lot of people, they don't have clarity on what they fundamentally want or how to achieve it, or they have, for lack of a better term, just mental baggage holding them back. So, that's really where, especially like as a doctoral-level psychologist and executive coach, like that is where I come in specifically is to help with that specific situation.

Again, I think you're going back to this philosophy of removing things. You're not adding, right? I think I like that. I like that. I think that is the baseline. I would say it's basically find clarity. In order to find clarity, you need to remove your limiting belief. You need to work on managing it, you know, eliminating it, whatever it is that, you know, that you can do and put your focus on the other aspects. So talk to me about focus, like talk to, tell me about like, sometimes we founders, like you said, we do a lot of things, not just one thing. On a consistent basis. And we lack focus and, you know, again, do it because for the sake of doing it. How do you suggest founders to keep up their focus at their best and their best level, possibly all the time?

So one thing you rarely will ever hear me talk about is productivity. I think productivity is great. I just also, and I know people who are productivity gurus or like legit people who really know what they're talking about, and I have a lot of respect for them and what they do. I personally rarely ever talk about productivity because I think most productivity advice doesn't adequately address the core issue that people struggle with.

Hmm.

The cause. Like we talked about before, you know how to do an Eisenhower Matrix. You know about 80/20 principles. You know about time blocking and Pomodoro and all this other shit. You know all that. And maybe you've even dabbled in it, but fundamentally something isn't quite working. For me, when it comes to founders specifically, one, if you have a team, then your lack of focus is typically a lack of prioritization. Right? How do you clarify where you are most? This is one of the first things I do with a lot of founders. Where are you most valuable to your company? And how much of your time do you spend doing that versus all the other shit? Like one of the guys I worked with, like we literally freed up 15 hours from his schedule every single week because he realized he was spending 3 hours a day doing shit that wasn't, that he wasn't the person to be doing. And with like literally just like a very simple like exercise, he was able to figure out like, oh, there's 3 hours worth of shit that I don't need to be doing that this other person is better suited for, loves those responsibilities. And now I am no longer the bottleneck in my business. Right? That's because that's a huge thing is you, the things that helps you early on tend to later cause problems because it turns into you being the bottleneck in your business. Right? And learning to let go of some of that control and remove yourself as a bottleneck is a huge thing. So it isn't necessarily that you lack focus, it's you lack priority. That is a big thing for a lot of, a lot of founders. So one, there's that of like, where are you most valuable and how much of your time are you allotting to that versus how much of your time are you allowing to be taken up by anything else? Um, that is, that is a hard exercise to do because founders are like, everything's important. It's like, it isn't.

Right.

Like, it just, like, if you couldn't work on your business for a week or 2 weeks, what are the absolutely critical things that as long as they were done, it would stay afloat? Cool. Those are the priority. Of those, what do you uniquely have to do versus what can be outsourced to your team, to technology, to other things, right? I was talking to a CEO the other day and he, and they were doing like a, like a company retreat type thing. And I was talking to him like, yeah, how's CEO been going? He's like, oh, it's great. I just try to make sure I stay out of the way. He was like, because like he, 6, 8 months into this new role, he was like, Like, I'm not trying to control everything. Like, I am actively trying to just stay out of the way and not fuck things up. I'm trying to just empower my team to fully, like, really, you know, own their roles and really flourish in the company. As a founder, a lot of times, like, you're the CEO for a while, but founders, but a lot of founders are like, no, no, no, like, I have to do everything. It's like, you're not a solopreneur. You're a founder. Outsource. Your job is to empower, to lead, right? Is to get out of the way. So that is probably my biggest piece is you probably don't like focus. You like priority and you're probably trying to do too many things that you are not the person to be doing.

It's, it also makes me think about detachment. You know, one of the things that we founders struggle is attachment to certain things like idea, product. It needs to be done in a certain way because I did it certain way before, it worked well, you have to do it, let me do it so that it— you— there is no discussion back and forth. So a lot of this is, is again tied back to this, you know, stillness, being calm, and taking a step back. One step back and let them do it, even though if it is not in your way, at the end of the day, it should be done in some way. Nobody said it should be done in your way. So I think it's always about like, I think you have like a lot of, I think you call it Buddhism, Stoicism, like that kind of influence. And I want to also like very curiously want to understand And I kind of tend to pick patterns among philosophy in building startups for whatever reason, maybe, you know, heavily influenced by Steve Jobs in my, you know, in my forming years of knowing startups. What do you think about that? Like, where do you think founders should put like a hard stop or how much of the influence should be adapted into their Into the journey of building businesses, especially from this Eastern philosophy, which is like you know you have very you everybody's going to die at some point. Do it fully live yourself. That is completely Eastern philosophy, and you like you said, Mentor More is completely you know Stoicism and all that. So yeah, philosophy of that nature building companies. There is a correlation, and I want to I want to understand. And your perspective on that?

Yeah, it's a great question. So I tend to see a lot of overlap with entrepreneurs and whether they're like founders or whatever and philosophy. And I also tend to see it in sports as far as like whether it is martial arts or rock climbing and things like this. And a lot of martial arts are also rooted in philosophy of some aspect. I think it kind of comes down to 2 reasons as to why There's so much overlap between these 3 things. One, martial arts and things like rock climbing, other just physical things are all around mastery, like self-mastery. And the more you do it, the better you get at

it.

Entrepreneurship is largely the same way. It is, you know, with some exceptions, it is a meritocracy, right? Like you are rewarded for being good at what you do.

The best. Right. Right.

And everything is figureoutable, right? Like, I don't rock climb, but like, if I'm trying to rock climb, it's just like, okay, I just have to figure out the right route to go. I just have to put in the reps to build up my strength and my knowledge and my endurance to do it. Right. So many people start martial arts or something like that and they give up within the first couple of weeks. Because all the shiny object syndrome shit goes away. They're just like, oh, it isn't shiny and new anymore. Now it's just fucking hard.

Yeah. It is so hard.

Business, businesses, it's the same thing. Like, it was really cool. I had a really good idea. I think it was, I thought it was going to be an instant success. And then 3 weeks in, it's just, just crawling through shit is what every day feels like.

Every founder, every startup is a shit show by default. Like, there is no other way to explain it. It's always a shit show. Everybody fucks up. Exactly. Everybody figures out.

Exactly. But like, and it's the same thing again, entrepreneurship and martial arts is like when you see another entrepreneur or when you see another martial artist, you're like, I see you. Like, I get it. Because there's an unspoken thing of like, we've both been through shit that No one else is fully going to understand, right? And like, even if I, if you, if you tell people, like, they just, they don't have the lived experience. So they just, they don't get it, right?

Mm-hmm.

Um, the, the other piece with, with philosophy and things is philosophy fundamentally, like translation-wise, is the love of wisdom. Okay. Philosophy is about the love of wisdom. It is about understanding yourself and the world around you. And I think a lot of founders and entrepreneurs especially gravitate toward more practical philosophies like Stoicism, like Buddhism, because again, with some exceptions, they have nothing to do with religion or spirituality largely. They're very practical, right? Even like, you know, we were talking before, you know, my whole thesis around like, you know, people are inherently, they want to be great and they can be great. They just need to remove the shit keeping them from being great.

Mm-hmm.

Buddhism has a similar concept with like being a Buddha, right? It's just like you don't become a Buddha. You already are a Buddha. You just have a lot of like bullshit on top of you that you have to remove to showcase your true self, right? Again, that's deeper philosophy stuff, but it's the same concept of like you are capable of greatness right out the gate. The only thing stopping you from it is the shit you've piled on top. So it isn't about adding. It is about subtracting the things that are standing in your way. Right. Again, that's my own philosophy with a lot of things. But yeah, like, like, like literally like my daily habit is I have the Daily Stoic. Like I just, I keep it right here. Like every day it's just like a daily reader. Like I literally, like I open my day with reading a page out of it, kind of just sitting, cultivating stillness, really like thinking about it. And then I start my day. Got a bunch of books on Buddhism shit over here, like those. From a psychological perspective, modern psychology is rooted in ancient philosophy. I think it was like Albert Ellis or somebody. I don't know. I'm not a historian. One of the big name psychologists, he developed this thing called REBT, Rational Emotive Behavior Therapy. It doesn't really matter just if you wanted to Google it. And he based a lot of, which is the precursor to modern cognitive behavioral therapy stuff. stuff, he based that largely on Stoicism, Buddhism, and some other practical philosophies. And when you look at modern, whether it is therapy or modern coaching, one term you hear a lot is the Socratic method or Socratic questioning, right?

Mm-hmm.

And that is just about helping you understand your own reasoning for things and why you do what you do. I mean, that's literally, it's in the name, Socrates. It's from philosophy. So, if you want to understand yourself, the world around you, if you want to understand modern psychology, Most of that was already figured out by people thousands and thousands of years ago. And if you read Stoicism, Buddhism, things like that, in my opinion, you will get more out of it than reading most modern psychology books. Because most modern psychology books are like, well, shit, this has already been said by dudes way back when in a very simple way. Let's repackage it and make it sound scientific. And like, let's just add like big-ass words and shit to it, like dialectics and like, shut the fuck up. Like, just, just read Stoicism and Buddhism. You'll get 90% of modern psychology.

It's so fascinating that you say, uh, because there is a big industry relying on that, you know, all the self-help category, you know, uh, these motivational speakers. They tend to say the same thing, but they, they're great storytellers, first of all. You know, they just, they just make it in a way that, that is approachable, reachable, and understandable, digestible. And, you know, a lot many people are misreading these books, for example, right? Uh, it's so funny that you mentioned because I think if you understand the basics, the fundamentals You don't need every— all of this in a way. You just basically do with your— in your— I like the way you said about conviction. It's a purpose to do things for others, make other people's lives better in whatever way possible. So yeah, just funny. I felt like it's all there. You just have to, you know, find it and kind of like practice it. Again, theory is different from Implementation, right? So, uh, last question.

One more thing with this, with philosophy and things and like practical philosophies. Most people, when they think about philosophy, they think about like, is a tree really a tree? How can you— what does it mean to know? Like, that shit isn't helpful for most people. The thing that— another reason why a lot of entrepreneurs really gravitate toward things like Stoicism and Buddhism is like, most of these philosophies were practiced by real people doing real shit, right? Like Marcus Aurelius was like the emperor, right? And he's like, right, these are the, these are the guardrails I put on my life to stay straight, right? It's like he, he wasn't pontificating about what the fuck a chair is or what, like, none of that. It's just like, look, man, here's how to get out of your own way. Here's how to deal with people who are going to be assholes to you. He's had to like simple shit.

Yeah.

Um, there's this other book, which is like usually the first, uh, Buddhism book I recommend to people. It's by Thích Nhất Hạnh called The Miracle of Mindfulness. And the whole idea of this book was like, it was like a series of letters he was sending to like another like senior monk dude. I don't know the terminology at another place during, I think like the Vietnam War. And I think it was Vietnam War somewhere in history. Again, I know shit all about history. But the point is this other monk and like The, the monklings, whatever the fuck they're called. Um, I'm super well-spoken if you can't tell as a psychologist.

I introduced myself as

Dr. Corey Wilkes and this is how I talk. But, um, not your average psychologist. Um, the whole thing was like these, like these other monks were getting like, um, kidnapped, murdered, raped, all this other shit purely because of their ethnicity during this, this, uh, altercation. Okay.

Right.

The whole point of the Was Thich Nhat Hanh was like sending these letters to this guy. He was like, "Look, man, I know you all are going through some real shit right now. Here is how to come back to Buddhism and mindfulness to help you weather this storm of all this violence and uncertainty and fear. Here is how you can recenter yourself to deal with this insane, inhuman amount of stress and turmoil you're dealing with." It wasn't a series of like. you know, hey, you should just think happy thoughts because, you know, your job was kind of stressful because your boss yelled at you today or something like— no, it was like, you are going through the realest shit humans can go through. This will help you. And because these types of philosophies are so practical and practiced by so many people throughout history going through real shit, that is what gives it way more validity than, again, the majority of any modern self-help book you're going to read. In general.

1000% agree, because the shit they went through compared to the shit we went through, we go through every day, is like so much less, like 0.01% of what the things they went through. I feel, I think that's why I think founders, if there is like a self-awareness aspect to it as well, I think not all founders get Buddhism. Founders who are by nature self-aware, they know their limits. Or for example, they know what they're doing and they can compare to the things that they read in these books. They get it because it's also like you understanding, realizing, in my opinion, that you're doing nothing in front of what they Right. There is this humbleness, right? So talk to me about— I feel like I want to definitely ask about this topic, which is self-awareness. You know, how do you inculcate in people who doesn't have it? And whoever has it, how do you help them to double down on

it? So again, probably an unhelpful answer. Like, I believe people are inherently self-aware, but they allow shit to distract them from it. It sounds like a Dr. Seuss quote, but this whole idea of no matter where you go, there you are. And what I mean by that is most people spend their entire waking hours jumping from one distraction to another. And one of the reasons for that fundamentally is they don't like— either they don't like who they are or who they think they are, or the thoughts in their head Are basically like bullying or abusive. So as long as I, because I have all these insecurities, these toxic personal narratives, these limiting beliefs, all this shit, this baggage. So as long as I just keep jumping from one thing to the next, to the next, to the next, I can push that voice down. The issue with that one is you're never dealing with it. And that voice is, that voice is like a fucking serial killer in like any horror movie. They're not fast, but they're always there. Always right behind you, right?

Yeah.

And you're eventually gonna trip on some shit and then they're gonna catch you. Like, that's just how that voice works,

right?

And like, a really simple thing, you know, that— a really simple exercise which is incredibly uncomfortable to do at first is go out to eat, like, at a restaurant by yourself, and don't look at your phone. How uncomfortable is that? Most people are like, fuck that, I don't want to do like that. That's super It isn't awkward because there's no social interaction to be awkward around. It's you think it is awkward because it is uncomfortable because all you're left with is your thoughts. You as your own dinner companion. That is terrifying.

That is a scary place, by the way. That is a scary place to be. I've tried that. It is the most scariest place I've ever been, which is Spending time with your own thoughts, not doing anything else. Because you truly see yourself, who you are, butt naked, nothing, full transparency, nobody's there to judge. I want to hear like how— yeah, I didn't mean to interrupt, but I want to hear like how people can overcome that phase, like spending time with their own thoughts. Yeah.

Yeah. The easiest way to get over that is to just fucking do it. Like, there's no secret, right? Like, again, it's putting in the reps, right? Like, I used to do that and I specifically did it because it was uncomfortable. And because again, like, you can't watch TV, you can't look at your phone. Like, it is specifically an exercise in just sitting with yourself. And at first it was super because it was like, and you do this thing psychologists call metacognition, which is just thinking about your thoughts, like observing your thoughts. Okay. Because meta means like beyond. So like thinking beyond your thoughts, like just observing your thoughts and shit. And at first you're like, oh, all these people, they're judging me. They're like, who is this motherfucker like sitting by himself? You know, then you're just like, do I eat weird? Like,

I

don't Because like some people, like some people don't even like to eat in front of others because like they get self-conscious and shit, right? So all of your, your, your self-consciousness, all of your insecurities all come rushing. They come rushing to the forefront and you can't do shit to distract yourself. You can't look at your phone. You can't engage in conversation. You can't just flip through Netflix or something. You got to just sit there and deal with it.

It almost feels like Inside Out movie. Like all these feelings, you just like, right?

Yeah. Because, because it forces you to be like, Like, this is the shit that I carry around with me every day. These are the bullshit thoughts. If I talked to another person the way I talk to myself, I would be a bully. I would be abusive. But this is how I talk to myself every day. Everybody's judging you. Nobody likes— like, everybody thinks you're weird. Who the— you would never say that shit to another person.

Yeah.

But yet you say it to yourself every fucking day and never question it. And the reason you don't question it is because you never face Right?

Oh man.

There is so much clarity in doing shit that is uncomfortable because the biggest question to ask is, why is this uncomfortable? What makes this uncomfortable? You, again, it's like I'm trying to shit on like the self-help industry. You will learn more about yourself doing an exercise like that than reading the top 30 self-help books. I promise I promise you. Okay? And it's free. It's just the cost of dinner, whatever that is, right? But you do it once, it's super awkward, and then you're like, okay, but I survived. It was really uncomfortable, but I survived. If you do it again and again and again, it becomes less awkward, less weird, less, you know, just uncomfortable. And over time, you can even learn to enjoy doing it. It's really hard to do, but can be legitimately transforming if you do it. But so that's my thing is like, by default, you are self-aware, but you're not giving yourself permission to be self-aware because there are certain things about how you think that you don't want to be aware of.

Shit. That's powerful. Damn. That is a powerful exercise, by the way. I try to do this other thing, which is take a blank piece of paper and just write. No filters, just write. And sometimes when I write, the next thing I do is like read it out loud. And when you read it out loud, the things, the chatterbox that constantly talks to you in the same thoughts, when you read it out loud, it feels so stupid. You feel The chatterboard inside you feels so small. You really, really, really know how much of a bully in your words. That's a that's another thing. You are a big bully to yourself, and who are that's why I think people say this: you have to be kind to yourself first before even being kind to others. Because you know, I think once you are that's where self-love comes in. I think I read this. Book by Kamal Ravikant, which is amazing. Yeah, everybody should read it. Blanking, but I'll put it in the show notes. It's about self-love, like love yourself. I think unfiltered, and I think that exercise, like you said, it is scary, Corey. It's it's not easy. It's it is damn scary. You you go to a dark place and. But I feel, uh, do it 100 times, I think you'll come back, right? I think that's, that's the thing, you know, you just have to put it in reps. I can't ask you another question. That's it. That's a wrap. That is it.

Oh dude, dude, I'm down to come on another time so we can always do a part 2.

That is, that is done. And, uh, I love this episode so much because there is so much, uh, relevancy To me and you know for hopefully to listeners because my my audience are always like founders who are hustling, doubting themselves, having a lot of limiting beliefs yet they show up and they do. Then I think that's why I respect you know entrepreneurs, founders and some of the things you said, some of the exercises, some of the questions—they're so thoughtful, profound and I'm shit. I'm going to like use it in my life. life. So I appreciate you, Corey. Uh, thank you so much for dropping by. Thank you so much for, you know, sharing all the wisdom with us. Any, any closing thoughts before we wrap up?

No, this is awesome, man. Um, you asked a lot of really good deep questions that I think will benefit a lot of founders. So I appreciate the depth of thinking you put into coming up with these questions. And I just appreciate being invited

Absolutely. Thank you so much. Thanks for the kind words. And that's it, folks. Stay tuned. I have amazing, amazing prolific guests like Cody coming on the show, and I hope you learn a lot from these conversations because we do this for you. You know, again, the conviction, the purpose is to help other people win. So on that note, stay tuned. Cheers. Do your thing.