Dr. Julie Gurner - How to unlock your peak performance to achieve success!

I want people to be true to themselves and live the life they want on the terms they want and be able to attain what they want. So whatever that is for them. And then I'm going to work within their definition of success, right? I'm not going to impose what my definition is. You know, my definition may be, you know, buying a farm out in wherever, right? So like, Yeah. not everyone wants a farm. Nobody cares. So they, they might want something very different for themselves. Like one of the most, exciting things for me is watching people meet their own definition of success and what they want. And to me, that's like, there is nothing better than that. So I want them to tell me if they're being true to themselves, you know, what's the life they want? What are the things that they, you know, on the terms that they want and the things that they want to attain in their life? And if they're able to meet those things, that to me, is success. And if I can be a part of that and aim them toward that goal and help them reach those places, that to me is success.

What's up, everybody? This is Sharath. I'm your host for today's episode from the Undefeated Underdogs podcast. Today I'm very stoked. Kind of a personal favorite of mine, the guest who's joining us today, it's none other than Dr. Julie Gardner. How are you today, Dr. Julie? What's going on?

Good. Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be here today. And, and thanks again.

Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. I'm actually very thrilled to have a conversation with you about like a lot of things. I have prepared a set of topics I want to cover, but before we dive into the podcast itself, let me give you guys a brief intro of Dr. Julie. She's a phenomenal person just in general. Her, her, She's like very empathetic, very understanding towards the founder community and the startup community. And she's an executive performance coach for many people. And she writes this amazing newsletter, which is a favorite of mine called Ultra Successful. She drops these wisdom nuggets in the newsletter. It's pretty simple, like 5 tweets sourced from her. account or like anybody's account that actually helps me like, you know, figure things out on a week-to-week basis. So I'm a big fan. You should all subscribe to that. And lastly, I think her work is featured on Wall Street Journal, Forbes, Fast Company, you name it. Like she's pretty much all over the place. Dr. Julie, I'm actually stoked. So right off the bat, one of the things I observed on your website is is about peak performance. And you talked about it a lot in your newsletter as well and generally in your tweets. If you want to describe what is peak performance in your opinion, what is it about?

I think peak performance is really when people— it's very similar to kind of what performance coaching taps into, which is really if everybody in your audience is kind of thinking in their head right now and thinking, Most people, deep down, they know that they're capable of more than where they're at right now, right? And so, you know, that knowledge, that self-knowledge that you have, that you carry around with you, I think that, you know, if people are able to rise to that occasion, be able to kind of meet their own criteria of what they know they're capable of doing, to me, that is peak performance. And that will change from person to person. So I think about each individual being able to tap in and be able to fulfill the potential they know they're capable of. And to me, that is peak performance for that person.

And everybody has their own bar, like you said, right? I think the best way to look at it is you compete with yourself, your past self, and not to be in a race where you sometimes feel get lost or whatnot. And what is something that you bring to the table as a coach? Because that's something I want to understand more in depth. Like, what is— so I feel what you said is like, you make people realize their individual capacity and you push their boundaries. Is that something that you do?

Yeah, that's a really good question. I think that for me, a lot of people consider coaching to be skills. And to me, I think that skills are very easy to learn. So as a founder, if you need to learn, you know, skills of, you know, HR skills, that's something that you can read about, learn, and pick up, or you can hire someone hopefully who's even better at that job than you as you scale upward. But for me, my job as a coach is really to understand who that individual is, what their individual strengths are, and be able to pull those things forward and unlock the things that are keeping them from actualizing their own potential, right? Being able to tap into what they can really do. and remove the things that are blocking them from doing it. And, you know, people usually are bumping up against themselves. And that's what I find, like, they know what they should be doing. If I said, hey, you're going to lose your apartment, you're going to lose everything if you— next month, if you didn't start kind of making motion, what would you do? And people usually have 1,000 ideas on what they could do if they needed to. Right. But why aren't they doing them? What is keeping them from making motion and to moving ahead? And those are the things that we really want to address as a coach, are the things that are keeping people kind of smaller than they need to be.

So, in a way, it's all about creating that urgency, right? Do you have a set of frameworks or some methods to create that urgency? You can't really say to people like, hey, you're going to lose your apartment or your assets the next day, right? It also sometimes feels a little pushy, but what is something that you do based on their individual personas, according to their situation?

You know, the thing about VC-funded founders, if you're founded, if you have a VC fund that you're working with, is that there's always only a limited amount of time that you have in runway before you have to raise next. You only have a certain amount of money. And so, really thinking about like, I think people can get very complacent early on. You know, you raise a round and then, you know, the first quarter feels pretty nice and the second quarter, oh, you still have a lot of time and, you know, like it's easy to become complacent. And I do think that kind of thinking about, okay, what are the things that you really need to hit to raise an A or to raise a B or whatever you're at, if you're funded in that way, and making sure that you're kind of reverse engineering that and saying, hey, are you really behind the 8 ball here or are you tracking to where you need to be? And reminding them of kind of the pace and cadence that is required to be able to meet the marks that they're setting for themselves. And I think that, you know, people can get very stuck in tasks that don't matter and things that aren't really, you know, their fires of the day, right? Like, this thing's going wrong, that thing's going wrong. But in the meantime, things aren't pushing forward. And so, really refocusing people on the things that matter and kind of showing them— the trajectory if they're not focusing in on the things that matter. Because at the end of the day, that's going to determine if your company lives or dies. Right. So, I think a lot about those things if you're VC funded. If you're not and you're bootstrap funded, you also, you know, you're also looking at runway and you're looking at timelines and you have certain marks for yourself. So, we really kind of dig into some of those things in a really personal way because they tend to have very explicit goals for themselves on a monthly basis, a quarterly basis. And we want to make sure that those Those hit and those happen.

I love that. I think you basically kind of tailor curate and tailor, give a tailor-made solution for each and every founder based on their situation. It's not like a one-time recipe for everybody. I think they do, you do have some things like that, but which I want to dive into a little later, but let's take a step back and I want to understand how Dr. Juli got into this in the first place. Like, what is, what made you motivated to decide, okay, I'm going to go and be a coach forever in the rest of my life? Because I think I want to understand the roots of it so that the audience can make more of a relevant story to you.

Sure. I mean, I started out very traditionally in psychology when I first got my— I'm a doctor of psychology. And when I first got my degree, there really wasn't I didn't know of this option. I didn't know it existed, right? So I'm operating as, you know, a doctor of psychology who did some various forms of work. My beginning specialty was adult psychopathology and forensics. So, right, I started a very different place. But in this specialty, oftentimes, you know, companies will ask you to advise on products. And so you advise on a number of different products, looking at them from a psychological lens.

Right.

And a company was doing that with me and kind of asking about a product. And then the firm that was funding that product had a founder in its portfolio who had received a large amount of funding and was really struggling to function, like struggling to make decisions. And there, I think I was probably the only psychology person they knew. And they said, hey, can you talk to this founder? They're having some struggles really making decisions. So, I had that conversation, met with this person a few times. And before you know it, like, they're back on track. They're making high-caliber decisions. They know who they are. And to them, you know, that was kind of magic. And to me, I felt like, oh, wow, I saw that so quickly. Like, this is a way I can use these skills in kind of a new way that helps people, that moves the needle quicker. And it was a very lightbulb moment for me and very hand in glove. It felt very natural. So, from that point forward, I felt like this is what I'm meant to do. And I started really directing my entire career in that direction. And I started getting results in that direction. And so, you know, when you love it, you start to get results, you start to gather a reputation. I had a company I worked with that sold for quite a bit of money. And, you know, like, it just became this kind of reinforcing machine that kind of built from the ground up. And I was so excited to be a part of it. And I've loved it ever since.

I think what couple of things I want to also ask and touch upon. One thing you mentioned, which is you love what you do and you're generating results. I think that's like match made in heaven. I feel that's like the perfect equation we all try to achieve as human beings, like the work we love and we get out of something out of it, right? So why did you like prefer tech? Even though I know, I mean, kind of you touched upon a little bit, but why tech in general specifically? Because tech is such a fast-paced world, right? It always changes. You know, a couple of years ago, nobody's talking about AI. Now everybody's talking about AI.

A

couple of years from now, I mean, there are trends that go, that take you to peaks like social media with Facebook rise. AI, podcasting. There are like so many different trends. And how do you keep up with those when you talk to these founders? I'm sure that they come from different backgrounds.

Sure.

Right. And that's the reason I was asking, like, why tech and how do you like keep up with everything that's happening?

That's a fantastic question. You know, like I make it a mission that every day I'm reading and I make sure that I'm up to date on what's happening. So it's really important to me. You do see me on social media, right? On Twitter. So I make sure that I'm really tapped into everything that's happening around the trends. But even, for example, when the pandemic hit, you know, I was online with a university in Hong Kong looking at, you know, trends in finances and what they were predicting with the markets because I have clients who are doing, you know, in finance. So it's my job to really cut across industries and understand what's happening in the larger trends. But I don't have to be an expert in every industry because I'm working You know, my work is with people. And so, like, people and their mindset and what's going on. So, I have to understand the trends. So, if they said, oh, Silicon Valley Bank is, you know, really stressing me out, I couldn't come to the table and say, oh, what's happening with them? You know, like, I would have to know kind of what's going on to understand the magnitude of the stressor. I have to understand what's being, you know, the structure of tech companies. I have to understand the trajectory of them and how they work in general operational— Right. Ways in which that they operate to be able to be good at my job. But I think at the same time, my expertise is really in the people. And that's where I bring value. You know, I'm, I think it's my distinguishing factor that I'm a doctor of psychology who understands tech and that ecosystem very deeply. But I'm not going to be the person that people will go to if they want to know, like, how do I structure my deck to raise my seed round? I don't know. That's not my expertise. My expertise is if you're going into raising that round and you don't know how to present yourself in a way that is confident, convicted, and really kind of dug into what you're doing. So, that would be kind of a separator for me is that, you know, you have to operate where you're great. And I think that's true of everyone. And if you can do that and stay in those lines, because I think you're tempted not to a lot. Mm-hmm. Because people will come to you and say, I'm going to pay you this insane amount of money to do something that you're not great at. You have to have the fortitude to say, you know, no, I'm not going to be great at that. So why would I do it? And so I've just consistently just stayed in my lane and allowed and have a referral network of others who can, you know, do all of these other functions if they need them. But my lane is very clear to me. And that's the lane I stay in.

Yeah. That's awesome. I feel, and you being in that lane is so helpful for others, right? Like if you get distracted, that means like, you know, you won't deliver your 100%. So you briefly also mentioned about, so far we've been in 30 minutes of the conversation, 10, 10, 30 minutes. And I always hear you mentioning about VC-funded founders.

Yeah.

Or let's talk about bootstrappers, like, sure. But I'm very curious why, when a VC-funded founder fundraised and closed a round, why do they struggle? Because to me, maybe I might be wrong, to me, they've hit a milestone, right? That means it requires a certain level of conviction and confidence to do that.

Sure.

That to me is like a high, right? They've hit a milestone. Why do they go to a low? Why, why, what's happening in their mind, in your experience?

In my experience, you know, once you raise the round, the pressure starts. I mean, like, then the timer's on, right? You have maybe, you know, 24 months if you're lucky. Sometimes people have 18 months. Sometimes they can push it, you know, 3 years. But this is when the clock starts and you better start producing. You need to have certain markers that they expect you to hit. You better have, you know, product-market fit. You better have a path to profitability. You better, I mean, like, that's, and it's someone else's money and they're going to be demanding of you on the outside. So, I think that there's a different kind of pressure than, you know, bootstrap have their own pressures. I have someone I'm working with right now who's bootstrapped and doing incredibly well. And they often take huge chances because, you know, sometimes they'll take bank loans. Sometimes they'll do, you know, a number of different things to get their startup off the ground. The, but with VC-funded founders, it can seem really cushy, right? Like, hey, you got, you just got $8 million in your seed round. What are you worried about? But now you have to, you have to put up, you have to make sure that you're, you're stepping up to the plate and you're actually making good on it because when you move forward, you have people, you know, you're sending updates to your investors on a regular basis. They want to see that things are happening. You have to be you know, constructing a team, you're expected to move quickly. Oftentimes you don't know how to construct that team, right? Like you're a founder who maybe their background is in, I don't know, business development. And now you're hiring a team of engineers. Like, oh my God, how do you do that? Like, how do you vet them? How do you begin to construct this group?

Right.

How are you going to spend this money? How do you do it judiciously? So, I mean, there's so many different, I think, things that go through their mind as well. And they see people who are doing incredibly well. But there are just, there are a number of people who will fold. And that's not uncommon, right? You see VC-funded companies close, crash, unwind all the time. And you don't want to be one of those stories either, because now you're not just failing for yourself, you're failing in public, you're failing in front of others, you're tanking other people's money who put millions of dollars into you And now, you know, they're going down the drain. So I think that there's a lot of pressures internally around that.

Do you think the pressure is coming from just because of money or anything else?

I think it's personal. I mean, no one wants to fail, let alone fail in public and in front of other people. So I think that that's a that's a challenge, right? I think that there's a lot of pressure around. You know, I think if you look at Twitter, you're going to feel as though everyone else. Has wild success, and it's fast, right? And that is the opposite.

Everybody's an overnight overnight success.

Everybody, yeah. And you know, but the truth of it is, it's a long slog, and it is hard. And I think that reality hits a lot of people, and they think that they are the only ones. Like, why is it so hard for me? In truth, it is hard for everyone. You know, why am I not like hitting on something immediately? In truth. most people aren't hitting on it immediately. So, I do think that the veneer and kind of this shiny thing that we see on social media is not— it presents its own form of pressure and people who seem to be kind of bragging about what they've done or what they're doing. And sometimes, you know, there's not a lot behind the scenes that supports even the bragging that you see. There was that, what was that company, Fast, that went down very quickly. Yeah. And that founder was everywhere telling people how to lead. it turns out, you know, it was kind of a challenge. So I do think that there are examples sometimes online that make people believe things that are not true.

Yeah, absolutely. I think mostly it's the balance, right? Like, you have to be very cautious about what you're getting into. And when you especially are doing things in public, why do you think founders fear failure? I think, is it like a mindset thing or is it like more of like an intuition that as humans, like we tend to avoid failure because that gives us pain, makes us uncomfortable and puts us in a very weird position, especially the things we do as a startup founder in public. Right. It's not like we're doing in closed doors.

Yeah. I mean, I think that you hit on a couple of really great things. One is that like, we always want to avoid things that bring us pain. And we want to avoid things that we fear, right? Whether it's a spider, we're afraid of a spider, or if it's something like failure, which is much more public and in front of others oftentimes. But I think the other thing that we don't think about is that founders tend to be, you know, if you're going out to raise money and you're going forward, you tend to be somebody who is okay in competition. You'd like to compete. You want to win. You're driven. And people who love to win and love to compete also hate to lose. And I think that there's something about that, that is also an ego wound that we don't talk about, right? You have high conviction, you're excited about this thing, and you come to the table and, you know, you're able to push something forward, you know, and then you get kind of slapped in a different direction. Yeah. You know, that's hard for everyone, and you may deep down feel very how should we say, like taken down a bit by that. And it can really wound people for a while. You know, it devastates some people where they don't decide to start companies again, right? They decide to, well, I'm just going to go and, you know, get a job and, you know, offer my skills elsewhere. And there's nothing wrong with that. But it can really be devastating for folks. People can get quite depressed and certainly struggle very, very deeply. Because they do have this level of belief. And when things crash or when things don't go well, it can really— as high as it gets, it gets as low on the other end of it.

Yeah, absolutely. I think it's a roller coaster ride. So given it's always hard, startups are hard. If it's so easy, everybody would have done it like, you know, a million times by now. If that's the case, Why do founders hire coaches like you? Meaning the reason, the point I want to make is if you go see athletes, like go take NBA or NFL or any of these competitive, like, you know, major league sports, nobody has done it all by themselves. No athlete, right? They always get help, seek help. from coaches, from someone. They can be their fathers or their parents or someone, right? Like Tiger Woods was literally coached by his father. LeBron James' coach was like someone who said, hey, you can do it, like things of that nature. And do you think the seeking help, is it like some culture that we miss? And if so, what's your observation there?

I think that A lot more founders have coaches than you probably realize because their coaches don't talk about it and neither do the founders, right? So I do think that it's very prevalent and you're seeing it more in later stage founders because it's expensive. But if it's in earlier stage founders, you're seeing it with people who are, for example, Alexis Ohanian and his fund. A certain percentage of the fund has to be used for founder benefits. So many founders will use it for coaching and things like that. I don't see it personally as seeking help. I see it as seeking an edge, right? Like you want, if you're moving ahead, you want to do everything possible to ensure your success. And I think that this is one more tool at your disposal if you want it to be able to move forward. And I think you need different coaches for different stages perhaps, or maybe different coaches for different needs. I don't think every coach is right for every person. I certainly don't think I'm right for every person, but I do think that, you know, what it can do is to really help that person overcome some internal obstacles that they have sometimes in leadership, sometimes having hard conversations like conflicts. You're going to have to fire people. You know, like there are hard things along the way that people don't think about that, you know, really can hold them back. And so this can really give you an advantage. And even if it means moving quickly, moving more quickly, That adds to your bottom line every single month that passes.

That's interesting. I don't know that, like, because like you said, many of the founders and many of the coaches, they won't talk things publicly. But I feel it. I think in my personal experience, if someone is talking vulnerable things that, hey, I'm actually working with a coach or a coach is like helping a founder. I think it empowers like other folks, you know, who thinks that, yeah, this is the right path to pursue. It's not like, you know.

Yeah. It's very personal though, right? I mean, because sometimes you'll talk to founders and you'll be, you know, with some folks it will be very, very like professionally only focused, but people bring their entire self into the office and, you know, people's insecurities, their challenges, the things that they struggle with, a lot of those things come from places outside that office. And so you're talking about things that are inherently very personal. It's why, like, I will, you know, like, I, it, to me, it's always a flag if I see people talking about clients they've worked with. I don't, I don't really see that very fondly unless somebody has already said publicly that they work with me. I would never say that, that I have ever worked with them unless they declare that themselves, then I think it's kind of fair game. But yeah, I think that like confidentiality is what allows people to open up to you and trust you. And if you don't have trust, I mean, you really have nothing.

Got it. Yeah, makes sense. Makes sense. I think it's all personal choices. Let's switch gears a little bit and talk about the founder-coach relationship. You had like many, you know, Many experiences with working with founders. What is like the best, I would call it as a formula that you've implemented with working with the founder as a coach is how's the bond flows? You know, it's not like a, it should be more, much more than like a session, right? It should be like a relationship with, you're having with like, you know, the other person. bond. So, how do you describe the founder-coach relationship?

I think about it as like an in-depth, like kind of consulting relationship with very high ethical expectations and very high expectations around absolute candor on both sides, right? I expect them to be really forthcoming with me. And they should expect me to be very forthcoming with them. And in fact, it's very, very common for me to say before we start off, usually I have like kind of a A brief screening call prior to taking someone on as a client to see if that's something that's going to be a good fit. And I'll tell them, you know, before we kick off, I'll say, just remember, you know, I'm your friend in this process. It may not always feel that way because, you know, my goal is really like, sometimes I'm going to really have to hold you to the wall with things. But I also want you to be very candid with me. And if I'm ever pressing too hard or there's something that is challenging, I expect you to let me know that. I ask them, how does someone best work with you? What is the way you like to be communicated with? Most people that I work with say, give it to me straight, be straightforward. But there are some people who say, hey, I will need someone who eases into this relationship a bit. It takes me a while to trust people. That's fine. So I'm, I have to meet them where they're at, but I also set the expectation that like, you know, we're going to be really candid with each other and that's expected, but everything you say to me is, you know, protected. Um, and it will be something that's kind of kept between us, but yeah, it is a really close relationship. You know, I'll have people who text me if something is really, I mean, really going wrong or really challenging. Um, I'll have emergency calls if things are happening that, you know, are very challenging for their, for the company or for them personally. And it's, it's really hard, you know, but they do have, you know, it's lonely doing this job, especially if you're a solo founder. And, you know, it's, they have somebody that they can talk with that is not like, you know, their, their team members who sometimes you can't say everything to about like your own personal concerns or challenges.

Right. Yeah. Very interesting. Let's also talk about the science behind peak performance. Sure. Right. I feel like I want to ask, you know, I wanna get into technicality.

Sure. Let's do

it. Do you have, like, any mental biological observations made in your experience that it can be easily fixed through these systematic, like, you know, routines, habits that you suggest, like, Because sleep is a big component, right? Yeah, sure. It has big impacts. Similar to that, do you find anything interesting that you want to share?

Yeah. I mean, like, to me, the science of top-tier performance and coaching is really tapping into cognitive science because everything that we do comes from us. It comes from our thoughts. It comes from how we think about things, how we see the world, right? And, And the brain and how it, you know, it interplays with how we behave, how we show up. Your world is just shaped by how you think. So, you know, when I start thinking about easy things that people can implement, I think about things like, you know, you hear a lot of founders, you know, like they're not sleeping well, they're not eating well, they're not— I call these foundational issues, right? So, I always ask about those first, like, how are your foundational issues? And people will brag about like, oh, you know, I get 4 hours of sleep, but I'm fine. Like, I'm totally okay. Right.

Right.

But what we find is that when you are tired, and this is a very easy— I think everybody in your audience will recognize this. Have you ever answered an email when you are full of energy and just, you know, you can rip through that email in 5 minutes? Right. But let's just say this is the end of your day. You've worked 14 hours and you're answering your emails. Oh man, that 5-minute email is now 15 minutes long. Maybe you're trying to put on the television in the background to pretend that you're relaxing, and it's just— you're dragging out your tasks. So, when you're tired, you're extending your workweek and you're extending the amount of time tasks take. So, although you feel like you're getting more done because you're working more hours, you're actually extending the time that it takes. To get the work done. If you would have just compressed that timeline, let's say you sleep seven to nine hours; it's optimal. And you know you have a high protein breakfast, which is also optimal. And you know you jump into your you jump into your tasks, your high energy tasks or high you know the things that really tax your your headspace immediately, and then leave lower energy tasks for the afternoon. Like you can have meetings and be a little tired; that's fine. But like All of those technical difficult problems you want to solve, push them when you're at high energy. And you'll find that, you know, your workdays go better, you'll get more done, you'll, you'll get things done more quickly, and you're not extending your own timeline. It's a weird thing though, like, to think that I'm working more hours, so I'm getting more done makes sense to us. But unfortunately, when you do that, you're tired. And so each task is now taking longer. And it's, it's making things more challenging for you. So, I try to be very, very aware of how much people are working and make sure that even if they're working long hours, that they're getting good sleep, that they're stacking their highest cognitive load tasks in the early part of their day. And we are very intentional about that as like a formula.

That's very interesting. I think what you said is very interesting to me. The more hours you spend doesn't mean you're doing more work. True. I feel writing an email for half an hour, because you spend half an hour, is— it's not going to give you like the best email ever. It's— I think the ideal time is more important than the duration of the time. What, you know, in your experience, what's the best time for folks to reach their maximum performance or maximum capacity? What's like the— is there a window?

That's a great question. And, you know, what you're going to find, and people can think about this at home, is that, you know how we ask people like, are you a morning person? Are you an evening person? Right? Like, so morning people, you know who you are, right? So, you're the people who are going to do work best early in the day. That's always going to be your window. So, You look at people who are naturally—I'm naturally a morning person, which maybe annoys some, but it's like my pattern. So I can get up at five or five thirty and and really do some work early before my day starts. And I feel like I rip through it. If and if other people are morning people, that's going to be your pattern too. And then usually with morning people, you'll do work early in the morning. Great afternoon's going to be okay. Once we hit two or three, it starts to really. go downward. If you're not someone who's a morning person, however, you know that too. And so, I wouldn't stack it in the morning. That's not going to be your window. So, be honest about who you are and what energizes you and where it energizes you. I'll have some clients who will tell me, look, my optimum window is 10:00 p.m. at night. And so, what we'll do is we'll put— we'll look because the mornings, they are sleepy, caffeinate, they try hard to be morning people, and they'll do what they need to do and they'll have their meetings in the morning. And then, you know, their days pass and they do all their high cognitive tasks when they're in that great window that they love. So, I think that people have to, if you have the freedom to do it, and not everyone does, if you work in a 9-to-5 job, you're forced to fit in there. But, if you don't and you have the freedom, work, put your highest cognitive load or those the ones that require most of you in the window when you operate best. And usually most people understand when that is, but it's not going to be the same for every person.

Yeah, I think it makes sense. I used to be a morning person when I didn't have a kid. I used to work my ass off, but I still used to be on my top level because I didn't sweat anything. I'm working You know, at the best level. No, I think what you said is absolutely true. It differs. Right now, my best performance is post-9 AM. I couldn't wake up at like, you know, 5 AM for whatever reason. Getting 8 hours sleep is like, is game-changing, you know.

Yes.

It's going to like change a lot of things we do. You talked briefly about like habits in a sense, routines. systems, right? Couple questions there. One, what's— what are some habits that you suggest or you kind of impose on founders to like, hey, you have to do this if you want to reach out to peak performance? Question number 2 is, what are some habits that you 100% impose on them to avoid? Like, hey, getting 4 hours sleep even though you're a night owl. Not going to work, right? So yeah.

So habits that I think are that I would impose on everyone is, and you know this is going to sound, I guess I don't know how it's going to sound to your audience, but like I think the most important habit is how you think. So like people will often you'll notice that people have a pattern, and they'll revert to certain ways of thinking about things that are sometimes. They can be optimistic, always seeing the glass, you know, half full. You can notice that some people will be minimizing. They'll almost like always be hedging, like, oh well, I hope to get this done by the end of the week. What that's telling me is that you're leaving a space where it's not going to get done by the end of the week, right? Like, so being able to think about how you, how you think, right? Your language, how you're speaking. That's a really important element of who you are, no matter what level you're at. So if you're just starting out and you're like, well, you know, I really hope I get my new Twitter account set up for the business. Like, if you're saying that, you are shortchanging your own authority, your own potential, your own movement, because you're giving yourself an out. So instead of saying that, say something like, hey, by Friday, Give yourself that deadline. By Friday, I'm going to have my Twitter account set up for my business and I'll send up, send out my initial tweet, right? That's so much different than saying, well, I really hope that I can get my social media set up for the business. And, you know, maybe that'll be done by the end of the week is you want specifics. So, one thing I do with everyone, a habit is specificity always. Like, don't tell me I'm going to make more money this month. I don't care about that. Because more money could be $2. That's more money, right? Like, so like, tell me you're going to make an additional $10,000, $20,000 in revenue. Okay. Like, that's something. So then we get really specific and specific makes people track. So if you say to yourself, I'm going to make an extra $1,000 this month, or I asked you, hey, like, how do you make more money next month? You could probably tell me how you could make more money. But if I say no, You have to like, tell me how you'd make $1,000 more next month. Your mind's going to go in a completely different direction. You're going to start forming strategies. You're going to start thinking about ways you could get that exact dollar amount. And that's what I want from people, you know, whether they're starting out or doing quite well, like get specific. So, I think that's something that I push for all the time, along with like those kind of mental habits and how they talk about things, because that translates to their teams. They're not alone. And telling your team, like, let's make more money this month is nice. But like, hey, I'm going to put $10K on the board, and we're all going to run toward it. And we're going to see if we hit that. And then you're tracking it every week. That's going to get you there so much more quickly. So, I try to really push for those things.

Anything that you suggest to avoid?

Avoiding, you know, like, I guess I would say the converse if I wanted to be lazy about this question, right? Like, I'd say, don't be cognitively lazy and say, oh, I just— we just should make more money this month, right? So, vagueness and that kind of stuff. I think that avoiding accountability— I think that when people, how shall I say, the things that I tell people to avoid are the things that probably are pretty apparent. So, like, not having accountability at your organization. I think that's something a lot of early founders don't do is they don't have accountability. They're like, oh, it's okay. You know, Ted, he's a great guy. He's working really hard. He's trying. But like, no one holds Ted accountable. Like, Ted could like slide on his goals for like the next 2 quarters. And, you know, he's a great guy, but like, is he showing up? Is he meeting your goals? Do you need a new Ted? Like, you know, so there's like kind of, I think that we tend to go pretty easy on people early on. And even later, it's challenging. Accountability is hard for people. So, and it doesn't have to be done in a mean way, but like, there should be expectations there that you hold to and hold others to. So I think about the lacks in those areas.

Yeah. You, in this answer, you just also mentioned about positive thinking versus negative thinking in a way, right?

Sure. Yeah, absolutely.

Sometimes positive thinking really helps to move the needle. Sometimes negative thinking helps. So how do you, how do you think founders should balance both?

Well, you know, I think that each person— that's a really good question, by the way. That's a really tough question, right? I think that each person is motivated by different things. And for some people, when they have a bit of negativity, it tanks them. Like, people go down these spirals and rabbit holes and, you know, they start hyper-focusing on it. For other people, fear is a great motivator and they will run hard because they want to avoid that bad thing. So you have to know who you are and what's going to, what's going to light a fire under you and how you use how you think. But see, now you're getting into a great part of my job, which is you got to figure that out for yourself and you got to know mentally how to position yourself. And you also have to know, which is something that I guess speaks to what you're asking, You have to know when you're starting to fall into a bad pattern. Like, if you're starting to— you had a negative thought and now it's starting to go down this bad place and it's tanking your mood and it's infecting how you're interacting with employees and you're starting to spread that into your culture, like, you got to cut that out and you have to be the person to, like, rein that in. So, I think that you have to look at impact. And if this negative thing is impacting you positively, Like, use it as a motivator. If it's not, then, you know, you got to make sure that you're taking the steps to make some changes, even though it's hard. You know, bad 10 minutes doesn't have to be a bad day.

Yeah, yeah. And I think it's, it's all like, like you said, self-awareness, I guess.

Yes.

Really knowing who you are. And like you said, I think what, what makes you tick.

Yes.

Yeah. And it can change, right? Sometimes it's positivity that like really makes you like, okay, push. Hope can push. Sometimes it's like the fear of losing, fear of failing, and fear of not winning. You know, those help. Another quick question on the— so I think you've talked a lot of frameworks in this last 40 minutes. Are there any specific, like, it's like a to-go box, like, okay, after listening to Dr. Julie right now, I will take this framework and I'll implement in my life as a founder, right? Any, or not even just for founders, but for startup operators, they feel stressful too. Sure. Basically everybody in the startup ecosystem are under stress, investors, founders to employees. Do you have anything that you want to suggest to Help them reach at their peak?

Sure. Let's give a quick framework around conflict. I think that that's always a really good one because people hate conflict. They want to avoid conflict because they consider it to be bad, but it does push you ahead and it pushes your company ahead. So, a really quick framework that makes it so much more approachable is instead of making it me versus you, we pull that person to our side of the table and make it us versus the problem. So, I'll tell you how to make that shift. Let's just say you have someone in marketing and they're not hitting their metrics, right? Like, maybe it's conversion rates, whatever. And so, instead of saying, hey, Ted, you're not hitting your numbers, you have Ted come into the room and you say, you know, Ted, the marketing department, we're not having— like, the conversion rates are really not hitting the mark. How can we solve this so that we can get that back on track? So, what I've done now is I've not made it me against Ted. I've made it Ted and I are going to conquer this problem. And, it's much together, right? So, we're going to figure this out and it gets him on board. A few things that does. One, it makes him so much more likely to talk to me because he's going to see me as a partner in problem solving. So, he's not going to hide stuff from me. And, that's the thing you want to be careful about. But, the other thing is that it still drives accountability without harming the relationship.

Right.

And eventually, obviously, if these metrics don't happen, he's going to feel that heat, but it engages him in problem-solving. So, I think about conflict that way, always bringing the person to your side of the table. How are we going to fix this? And helping, having them help you engage in fixing the problem and you're a partner with them.

That's amazing. I think it really, more than the progress people make, it really brings people together, right? Because it's inclusive. It's like, let's fight together as a team more than, you know, keeping them accountable on their head, which some people really don't like. Right.

I

like that a lot. I feel, I hope listeners, they can implement as quickly as possible. Let's talk about peak success. How do you define it? Number one. Number two is how do people measure it? Like you said, $2 for a beggar is peak success,

right?

And getting $100 more billion for Elon Musk is peak success because he's at, you know, he's the world's richest,

right?

I'm not only talking about money. Money is something that we measure, but that's the follow-up question. Like, how do you basically define and measure peak success?

So, for me, I, you know, I want people to be true to themselves and live the life they want on the terms they want. and be able to attain what they want. So, whatever that is for them. And then, I'm going to work within their definition of success, right? I'm not going to impose what my definition is. You know, my definition may be, you know, buying a farm out in wherever, right? So, like—

Right.

Not everyone wants a farm. Nobody cares. So, they might want something very different for themselves. Like, one of the most exciting things for me is watching people meet their own definition of success and what they want. And to me, that's, that's like, there is nothing better than that. So I want them to tell me if they're being true to themselves, you know, what's the life they want? What are the things that they, you know, that on the terms that they want and the things that they want to attain in their life? And if they're able to meet those things, that to me is success. And if I can be a part of that and aim them toward that goal and help them reach those places, that to me is success.

I love that so much because a lot of times we try to— when we— I feel everybody does this exercise, right? It's not new. It's so obvious. If you want to achieve something, you have to write down what you want to achieve. But the biggest problem, even I sometimes fall into the trap, is when we write down or define what we want, we usually copy others. Like, blatantly, we just copy. Like, I want to be the next Steve Jobs, I want to be the next whoever it is, right? And we try to include what they did in our life without knowing that it'll be super stressful. It'll, like, you know, it'll take the actual you from you.

Yeah.

Authentic you. What exercise, or do you have, like, a set of questions that you you know, you help, you teach founders to like avoid that distraction. Like, hey, don't copy, but maybe steal, you know, get inspired from your heroes, right? Because your heroes are completely different from you.

I think there is a really big movement to build in public, and I am somebody who is not in favor of that movement. I feel like when you do build in public, that's where the comparative points become really highlighted and people begin looking around or they hear people saying where they should be, right? Like, I think that a lot of times when you start imposing shoulds, that's a really big red flag, right? Oh, I should be doing this. I should be doing that, right? Like, that's a— I don't know that you should. I think that there are— When you start veering off your path, you'll notice that, you know, these things that we, you know, Steve Jobs and Elon Musk and all of those people are phenomenal because they are resolutely themselves. Like Elon Musk is like no one else. I mean, the guy has a lot of things you can criticize and a lot of things you could compliment. Same goes with Steve Jobs. I mean, you know, home life might've been a bit of a mess. Maybe that's not what you want in your future. He was very creative, however. He had incredible, you know, skills and talents and the way he led is often something that people don't copy because it was very top-down. I mean, so there's a lot of ways in which we can be uniquely ourselves. And if you want to be great, I think the thing to reinforce in yourself is that great people are never copies. They are themselves. They're on the COVID of Forbes not because they are somebody else. It's because of what they've done, because of what they've achieved and who they are. Right. And so really digging into that and being okay, like maybe you can pull a few ideas from Steve Jobs and that's great. And a few ideas from others, but, you know, try to keep yourself in a place where you're not looking at others while you're doing some of your most important work and then be okay kind of opening that up a bit. But yeah, unless your business relies on it, which, you know, if you're running a podcast, it may rely on it. If you're doing some of these social things, it definitely relies on it. But if it doesn't, it's why you don't see a lot of people on social media who don't need it. And is that they feel like, you know, it becomes a distraction, it pulls them, pulls their focus, it makes them question themselves. And, you know, honestly, a lot of people are pretty mean on social media. And sometimes that kicks people around a bit. So, and if you're unsure about who you are, that has a much greater impact on you over time. Yeah.

No, I think building public, I'm, I've built my whole life, my career because I've done things in public. So I'm more of like the opposite person, which is I do see the essence of it and the flavor of it. Like you said, I get inspired and give people a chance to inspire and be kind again, not imposing or like forcing things, but sharing my playbooks might help someone. to extract something from, you know, what I did, right? But the other side, which you absolutely kind of put nail to the coffin, is it gets super, super, super toxic, you know? It gets like racing with others. It gets to a point that, hey, you know, I feel shitty because someone else is winning.

Yeah.

That's, I think, the bad outcome you get from doing things in public, which can be avoided, like if you're very intentional about it, right? It always starts with good intentions. So that's, of course, you know, that's a way of looking at things when people do build in public. 3 more questions. One is, we all are in the— we're all experiencing the rise of AI. You know, pretty much, you know, it's going to be a deciding factor for many founders and startups. What do you think the role of AI plays in coaching? You know,

it's a great question. I think that AI can be a phenomenal coach, I think, for a lot of very basic things. I think it will be like, if you need, if you have any technical questions, how to construct a company, what to look for in your engineering hires, or whatever, marketing hires, great questions to ask. All of those things I think will be easily replaced, and I think it'll be a great thing. Honestly, I do think that the thing that will distinguish the best coaches will be expertise, brand, and personal connection. Right? Like I think that there are some things that will be challenging. I think human connection will always be a luxury, and I think that if you want. somebody who could be immediately responsive to your unique psychology. You can't be trained on a model of millions of others, right? I mean, so it becomes this very exclusive white glove experience that is very personal. And I think that will be perhaps a distinguishing factor of more elite services. I think the rest will honestly be replaced. And I don't know that that's necessarily a bad thing. I think that if you're doing a job that can be easily replicated and there isn't a distinguishing value add, then you've got to think about how to uplevel yourself and perhaps offer more that can make you distinctive.

Right. That's, yeah, you know, we'll see. We'll see. I think the future Lets us know where we go, I think. But I do agree to you, which is AI is definitely a game changer. It's going to uplift you like, you know, instantly, like right off the bat. Like you ask a question, it's really answering me. But I think what I see that it can't replace is like the human connection. Right. And God forbid, unless like we build like robots that talk to us like, you know, like people. Yeah.

I could see it though. Right.

We can, but even still then, I think it can't replace kindness and it can't replace the human touch we usually crave for each other. It can never replace a mother, right? Even though it has great qualities. So mother to me is like the highest peak of humanity. But yeah, let's see. We never know. Anything can happen. The world is weird. Yeah, it is.

And it's evolving quickly. So that's why I think if there are some basic things that, you know, coaches do, then, you know, that will— it's funny because, you know, even with content, right? Like, what's going to distinguish content? It will be, you know, the source of that content. Because you can run right now, you can run a lot of things through AI, and it's kind of wrong. Or at least it's not correct for many circumstances or situations. So you do have to be— I think that it's going to change the way we operate both In good and bad.

Yeah, we'll see. Uh, in this conversation as well as in most of your content, you talk about conviction and confidence, right? Yeah. And this is a personal question to me, and I hope it resonates with a lot of folks. I sometimes feel like peak level happiness and peak level, like I'm on the top of the world type of thing. whether it came from a dopamine hit or I just kissed my kid or he just hugged me and whatever reason it is, like, I'm like the best. Sometimes I feel like shitty. Like, I feel like I wake up like, man, this is so hard to like even come out of that thought. How do people maintain confidence and conviction? As in, like, it's not necessarily— I don't want it to be like you know, like going like a straight graph. I want to maintain at a consistent level so that I can be— I don't want to go through like these, you know, highs and lows. Do you have any advice for people like me?

I do. And, you know, like, I don't know that you're going to like this advice. So, I think that humans are not built to be one thing 24/7. We are built with a variety of emotions and to be able to express those and to be able to feel those. So, I think that the expectation that we are always at a consistent level is probably fairly unattainable. But I do think that if you want to look at how do I maintain more consistent confidence or positivity or kind of being in that place, that's something we could talk about, which is when things dip, a few questions that I would probably ask that you may not want to answer in front of your viewers, you could think about in your head. I would ask you, you know, when things tend to dip, are there common stressors? Are there common things that you're thinking about? Are there things that are overwhelming for you? Is it overwhelm? Are there ways you're addressing that overwhelm and piecing things out so that you don't get to that place? So those are things that I'd start looking for themes like when I wake up and I'm stressed out, it just so happens it's always before, you know, this particular meeting or having to have this particular conversation or I have these particular tasks to do, or, you know, so you start to look for themes. You also want to look at overwhelm is a very common theme of many founders. And you start to think, well, let's piece that apart because overwhelm is where paralysis begins to happen. And then paralysis makes you feel worse. And so, that kind of cycles into a very negative place. So, being able to piece that apart and tackle one thing at a time, can actually help pull people out of those spaces so they're not feeling that way. But yeah, so those are my, my twofold answer is one, not realistic to be great all the time. But secondly, I think that, um, there are often themes when people are not in good spaces and I, I would be interested in what those themes are if you look back.

Absolutely. I completely agree with you. Not everybody's going to be great. I think you have to have like a realistic expectation. Yeah, take— I always refer to Steph Curry from Golden State Warriors, basketball player. He's the world's greatest shooter.

Yes.

And he sometimes does so many airballs, like he shoots like so many airballs that feels like it doesn't even like, you know, realize that he's great. So sometimes you have these off days, sometimes you have like 50+ point games. Like, I think I'm watching NBA playoffs right now. It's like phenomenal to see him like go like that. So a couple of more follow-up questions, which is how do you think people should— founders, especially people who are involved in startups should set expectations, right? It's really, I think, a tricky exercise sometimes. Like you said, you can't live up your ex— your own expectations, and which will lead you to not love yourself because you didn't meet those expectations. So, A, self-expectations. Number 2 is self-love. Like, what do you— how do you suggest people go expectations to, like, you know, loving themselves?

That's a, that's a really good, and it's actually a really complex question. I think that you have to pull love away from expectation. Right? Like who you are, whether or not you succeed, your success is not reflective of you as a person. It's reflective of you and your business skills, right? Like, I mean, and all skills can be improved. There are surgeons who, you know, aren't successful and when they're helping people out and, you know, they, they do quite well sometimes and sometimes they don't. So I think that we have to pull apart our judgment of ourselves and our judgment of who we are in our business, right? Like, those are separate people. And oftentimes business becomes our identity. And I think that is the challenge. You know, your business is not who you are. And in my newsletter, you know, like that you had mentioned that like I have an issue called You're the Driver, Not the Car, right? Mm-hmm. And the reason why is because like you're the person who goes into that business and is going to take it where it's going to go. But, you know, at the end of the day, you are separate from that business. And that, that if you can get that down, that will build the resiliency that will allow you to see that like, hey, I didn't build this, perhaps this fort correctly this time around. That's fine. I've learned a lot. I'm going to go in and build it, you know, the second time around. And, you know, some founders I work with who reach incredible success, this is their third company, right? Like the first two, like crashed and burned. So not everyone does phenomenal things the first time around. But I do think when you're talking about, you know, expectations and acceptance and love, that the most important thing is not making your business your identity and really having a sense of self that extends beyond just the business. Like you are also a father, you are also a husband, you're also like, I hope you have a couple of hobbies out there. Yeah. And then your business is also a part of you, uh, what, who, how you identify, but it isn't all of you. So you look at yourself like a stool, right? Like, if you only have one leg of that stool and that gets kicked out, like, you're done.

Wow.

Right?

I love that. I, I absolutely love what you just dropped. I, I never saw— I, I never defined my identity as a stool. Like it's basically built on top of many things.

Yeah.

And we often feel like a unicycle, like running on one particular thing, which actually bothers us a lot. Like, you know, be it building a startup or be it like building a hobby or being it building, like, you know, being a father. Sometimes it feels like if I'm a bad father, that means, or if I didn't do well with my kid because of frustration or anything, That doesn't mean I'm a bad father, right? Or I'm a bad person. Right. That's phenomenal. I love that. I think, please tweet it after this, that identity should be like a stool with like 4 legs or how many legs you want. That's— I just got goosebumps. I love that. I want to like, you know, train my mind like thinking, you know, like that. That's so fascinating. Wow. Awesome. I'm loving this conversation.

Thank you.

We do this really fun as well as, you know, kind of like value-filled questions, rapid fire. I'll just, you know, ask 5 questions, like, you know, whatever the things that comes to your mind, shoot it. First question, like the biggest mistake people make that can be easily avoidable. What do you think about it?

They put discipline over motivation and they burn themselves out.

Interesting. Your favorite book that you recommend in sleep? Like, when someone is just asking you, like, go to bed, go to bed, what book you recommend to them?

I'm going to go outside of your question and say I am really a big fan of interviews. I would watch interviews with great people across fields and I would take that route and mix it up.

Oh, any specific interview that you want to plug?

You know, there are some wonderful interviews across the board. Specifically, I think there's a great one. Honestly, I know it sounds really silly, but Stanford Business School did a great interview with Oprah Winfrey. And it is phenomenal from like, basically zero to where she's at today. She's really fantastic.

Oh, yeah, she's, she's a legend. We'll definitely keep that in the show notes. Let's talk about food from a science standpoint, right?

Yep.

One meal that improves peak performance, what do you suggest?

Okay. Protein and caffeine in the morning, no carbs at all. What we know is that low glycemic index shows that people have better executive functioning. So, working memory, attention, So, that would be my one meal, my one recommendation. You can make it anything you want, but just protein. And then, if you want to add caffeine, you can.

Okay, perfect. Who's your all-time favorite coach? They can be part of sports, startups, anybody.

My favorite coach, and I will give him a happy shout-out, is Tom House. Tom House is the throwing coach to Tom Brady, to many others. We're connected on Twitter. I think he is an amazing man. I think everyone should follow him. Mindset, performance, he calls it straight. He's a super nice guy and he has worked with the best of the best. Tom House.

Shout out to him. Last question, one underrated advice founders usually overshadow?

You know, I'm going to use the build in public. I think that, like, I think that people should probably not build in public, but I think a lot of founders like to connect with others. And so, Instead of just connecting, they also are building in public. And that's the area where I think, you know, I'm a big fan of Sun Tzu and the quote, you know, um, you know, let your dark, your plans be dark and impenetrable as night. And when you move, fall like a thunderbolt. I want everyone falling like a thunderbolt unless they're actually like using, you know, the media to help them in some fashion.

Yeah. And basically benefits them, not them.

Right. Absolutely. That's a great distinction. Great distinction.

Awesome. This has been a great, great conversation, Dr. Julia. I feel I learned so much. I wrote like, I don't know if people can see, but I wrote like so many notes on my paper.

Thank you.

Just like going to like think through these questions you mentioned in the, in the podcast. I loved each and every minute, and I'm so grateful that I invited you so that people can learn from you. Any closing thoughts before we wrap up?

I really hope that people, whoever is out there right now, that like if they do experience frustration because they think that they can be, you know, better than where they're at right now, I really do just encourage them to go for it and not just be the person who sits on the sidelines and, you know, just kind of wishes and watches other people move and do the things that they wish they were doing. Like, take the chance, take the shot. You got one time around on this world, at least that we know of, right? So, you might as well give it a go. And, if they want to check out the Ultra Successful Newsletter on Substack, I hope they do that.

Absolutely. I highly recommend it. It's 11 out of 10. That's the bar Dr. Julie sets in every edition. So, highly recommend for folks, people to check that out. It's so simple. It literally takes less than 5 minutes for me to like, you know, go through it. So low effort, high value packed in that newsletter. So shout out to you for writing that. And shout out to everybody for tuning into this episode. Stay tuned. We have some awesome guests coming in, in the lineup. And I deeply appreciate you for your attention and time. Thank you. Thanks for reaching out. Absolutely. Thanks, Dr. Julie.

Bye-bye.