Polina M. Pompliano - How to master the art of asking insanely great questions!

What is Polina's definition of success?

Uh, personal fulfillment. You've done something that you feel has made your journey in this lifetime a worthy one. Um, and I really, really do think that people don't realize how fulfilling it is to share the lessons they've learned in their own life with others. I don't measure success as like Like you said, like material things, um, wealth, status, cars. But I do think that by asking people how they measure success, it tells you a lot about what they value.

Welcome to the Undefeated Underdogs Podcast, where I unpack and narrate stories of ambitious people who turn obstacles into opportunities. My goal for this podcast is to create a platform to narrate underdog stories and maybe play a small, teeny tiny role in inspiring you. I intend to highlight the underdog mentality and make authentic conversations with people who play the long game, take action with a chip on their shoulder, and convert obstacles into opportunities. Buckle up as I'll be bringing some authentic founders, VCs, community builders, and content creators who got underestimated their whole lives, and yet they beat all the odds to become insanely successful. Now today I want to tell you a little bit about our awesome sponsor acquire.com. Selling a business is as tough as building a business. As someone who went through this process once, selling my own startup, I know the pain it takes to get to the end zone. This is where our sponsor shines. Imagine this, you're a founder who's built a solid SaaS product, acquired customers, and generating consistent monthly revenue. The problem is you're not growing forever for whatever reason— lack of focus, lack of skill, or just plain lack of interest, and you feel stuck. What should you do? The story I'd like to hear is you buckle down, somehow reignited the fire, get past yourself and the clichés, and start working on your business rather than just in the business. You start building an audience, move out of your comfort zone to do sales and marketing, and in 6 months you triple your revenue. The reality isn't as simple. Situations may be different for every founder facing these crossroads, but too many times the story ends up being one of inaction and stagnation until the become business— the business becomes less valuable or worse, worthless. If you find yourself here or your story is likely headed down a similar road, I offer you a third option. Consider selling your business on acquire.com. Capitalizing on the value of your time is a smart move. Acquire.com is free to list and they've helped hundreds of founders already. Go to try.acquire.com/shirath and see for yourself if this is the right option for you. Now let's get into today's episode. Hello. Hello. Welcome everybody. Thanks for tuning into the Undefeated Underdogs Podcast. I'm your host, Shirath. Today I have an amazing, amazing guest who I really respect and admire. For her work, her authenticity, and the way she projects herself on social, especially on Twitter. Polina Marinova-Pompiliano, welcome to the show. How are you today?

Thank you so much. I'm great, and I'm very excited to be here.

Yes, I've been following you for a while. I'm a little nervous, like I said before, hitting record, but I'll be at my best. Oh my God, Polina, I've been a big fan of your work. The profile, especially some of the profiles like The Rock, one of the famous ones you did, it really helped me shape some of the things that I constantly face as fears. So big kudos to you for making a difference in people's lives like me and many others. For people who don't know Polina, let me give you guys a brief introduction. Polina is a founder and an author at at The Profile, one of the internet's leading destinations. She has done some amazing work in journalism. She worked at Fortune magazine, CNN, and she also worked at USA Today. She's known for meticulously detailing the journeys of successful people and companies. Her writings are a source of inspiration, like I said, and she offers an assortment of long-form stories since inception of Profile. She's also the author of Hidden Genius, one of the books I'm looking forward to listen to next. It covers the secret ways of thinking, what powers the world's successful people, like the top performers. And she's an immigrant. That's something that I can relate to. I want to cover that as well in the podcast. She's a mom. something I can relate to as a parent. And she also lived in Atlanta, which is— I'm actually moving in right now. So

a

lot of commonalities. Right off the bat, when did you realize your love for journalism? Talk to me about the origin story of— take to me about your University of Georgia days, probably. how it shaped the initial days that you were like, okay, you know what? This is fascinating. What is like the deep roots of it?

Yeah, it actually started way before the University of Georgia. So I grew up in Bulgaria. A lot of my grandparents were very avid news watchers. So I spent a lot of time at my grandparents' house, and every single day at 6:00 PM, it was, it had to be silent because nobody could talk because the news was on. And it was funny because I hated the news like that. I was like, oh, this is the time where I cannot ask questions. I can't talk. I can't do all these things. I thought it was incredibly boring. But then, um, you know, I grew up in Bulgaria. We moved to Atlanta, Georgia in 2000. I was 8 years old. And, um, When I got to school, it was interesting. It was like the thing that I loved most, which was asking questions and communicating with kids, was taken away because I couldn't speak English. That made me really, really introverted and shy. So when I got to high school, because both of my parents were chemical engineers, I just assumed that I would do something in the chemistry field. So I was taking Yeah, I was taking biochemistry and organic chemistry in high school because there was a special magnet program for science. So I was in, I was in that and I realized that I really did not enjoy the experiment part of my science classes. I really liked the research portion. I liked writing the lab reports. I liked doing the research papers, 10, 15 pages. My professor, my teachers would be like, okay, you really went overboard here. And I was like, endorphins are fascinating, you know?

Mm-hmm.

So, So, so I really, that's kind of when I realized I really enjoyed writing.

Mm-hmm.

And then I took a newspaper class in high school and that paired my love for writing with my love for research, with my like just curiosity. Mm-hmm. Um, and I realized that you can ask people questions for a living. Mm-hmm. And then research things and, and write and synthesize it. So that's really what appealed to me. And because I was really introverted, the newspaper class forced me to interview people. And because I was doing it for a quote unquote job, it didn't feel like I myself was super extroverted. I was just doing this for a job. So I could— it gave me permission to talk to strangers. It gave me permission to kind of get out of my comfort zone and it forced me to become more extroverted. So I loved it. And then So I started— that started in high school. Then by the time I got to the University of Georgia as a freshman, I, you know, I majored in journalism. I knew that day one I was going to go to the newspaper office and sign up. And then I ended up becoming the editor-in-chief of Georgia's newspaper.

It's awesome. I feel some of the fascinating stories, uh, I'm sure, you know, and I read a lot of these stories in the profile as well. they have deep roots in your childhood that actually shape where you want to go in your adulthood and the future. Right. You said something about forced— this forced into you being an extrovert. Were you an introvert by nature? Were you just by nature extrovert? Why did you say that word forced?

Yeah, maybe that's actually not the right word. I was really extroverted as a child, but I think moving to the US and not speaking the language, made me more introverted, and that kind of carried on and perhaps not forced me to become an extrovert, but more brought me back to who I actually was and what I enjoyed doing.

Yeah, that makes sense. Because I think you being like interviewing people itself is something that you put yourself out, right? You should face your fears. You should face being the the one who is on the other side asking a lot of questions. That's slightly weird. So I think an extrovert fits right in. But one thing I learned is I'm an introvert, and through this podcast, I've been exploring, I've been finding this hidden skill in me that I can actually make a conversation. So really, like, you know, different perspectives, I would say. On that note, you also talked about research. Like, I want to definitely ask about research in depth in the episode. Generally, people tend to hate research, meaning it's kind of time-consuming, it requires a lot of focus. I think the curiosity bit is the energy fuel, I would say, that actually fuels you to do more research. But I want to understand, how did you really navigate that? Did you ever face, oh my God, this is too much, or is it overwhelming for you in the beginning? How have you mastered the art of research?

Great question. I am— so in journalism, there's kind of 2 camps of interviewers. There's people who really like, before they interview somebody, going in blind, meaning they don't want to read anything else that's been done on them. They don't want to watch any interviews with them. They just want to go in with their own questions and not be clouded by things that have been written before. Then there's another camp that does a bunch of research and goes in super well-prepared and maybe asks some of the questions that they've already been asked or develops their own. For me, it's— I kind of abide by the rule of you can break the rules if you know the rules. And to me, the rules are what has this person done before, especially when interviewing kind of high-profile people or people who are very media trained. People who are media trained are so tough, like a lot of Fortune 500 CEOs, because they speak in clichés, generalizations. They say a lot, but they don't actually say much. So those are the hardest interviews, I would say. And what I like to do is I overprepare. I read every single thing they've ever done. I read books, I read interviews, I watch videos, I listen to podcasts. I want to know Not just what they're saying, but the subtext of what they're saying. What do they emphasize? What do they avoid talking about? What do they kind of repeat over and over and over again in interviews? Because that tells you how they want to be seen and perceived. So I like to pick up on the things that aren't obvious. And the only way to do that is by doing a ton of research. And because of my science background, I really do think that Most people would look at that as like, oh, that's overwhelming. They've done so much. Like I interviewed Melinda Gates one time for Fortune and it was like, she's had so many profiles on her and she's done so, so many interviews. How do you even start? And it's like, you just start with a grain of an article and then you just fall down the rabbit hole until you start seeing the same things over and over again. Right. And to me, that's a signal of A, this is important to this person, and B, maybe you should ask a question about it. Not the same question, invent your own, but know what they've done before. Mm-hmm. Because I, it's, I, I really do think for me, research is something that I do where the time just flies. I, it, it's not, you know, I, I genuinely enjoy it so much learning about someone and finding little things that others may have missed. That makes it a quality interview.

I think a great researcher makes a great detective.

Exactly.

You know, right? Like, in a way, they want to— like, they always look for these clues which will unlock some of the topics and some of the concepts that even haven't been discussed with that particular person. So fascinating. One thing you said about— man, I just blanked out. That's fine. So yeah, it's really like time-consuming. Yes, this is what I want to ask about, rabbit holes. Like, it's so easy to get into it. Do you have certain frameworks that you want to pull out of those rabbit holes? I know you said about the signaling, which you constantly get the same content or same meaning, that's a signal. But how do people, especially as podcasters like myself— by the way, I researched about you for almost like 6 hours, and yesterday I slept at 2:00 AM. So I kind of like went into a rabbit hole of some of the profiles you wrote about and some of the quotes you mentioned, some of the dining table questions you answered. You put out tweets in 2020. Your Bulgarian journey and what anyway, long story short, for people like me, it's really hard to come out of those rabbit holes. We just go, you know, it's like a looks like a black hole. So any frameworks that you want to offer for people?

Yeah. So I have some general frameworks, like of what I'm looking for. There's going to be so many details that I mean could are interesting, but they don't ultimately matter. What I'm looking for is. How does this person see the world? Um, what has shaped their perspective and how do they think? Hmm. What I mean by that is, for example, um, you can only learn some things by watching video interviews with the person. So for example, if we're talking on the phone, you can't see that I talk a lot with my hands. Mm-hmm. And that maybe could signal that, you know, I'm a very expressive person, uh, somewhat, you know, emotional when I speak, I'm not very monotone, things like that. And, um, that, that could signal something about my personality. Another thing that I learned is I really, um, can tell how a person sees the world by reading what they write, even in email. I'm like, oh, that's interesting, because that's not how you come off in person. Um, I learned this when I was at Fortune and I turned in a draft of a profile that I had written. And my editor told me, this is horrible because I can tell that your thinking is sloppy because your writing is sloppy. And what he meant by that is that I was using a lot of absolutes in my writing. So, when I was working on this profile, I would say, so-and-so at the firm. You know, everybody hated him, or nobody liked him, or I was using everybody, nobody, never, always, I think words like that, that signal some like universal truth or, um, it, it, it had zero nuance. And what he wanted to see is nuance and context and specificity. And he told me, every single word has to mean something. Otherwise you're just speaking in clichés. Mm-hmm. And that's how I try to write now. And I've trained myself to think is that I'm not always introverted. I'm not never happy or things like that. It's like we like to make the world so black and white when in reality there's so much nuance that we miss.

That's amazing what you said about every word matters. It makes you aware of what you even express, right? It's like every word matters. Like every word you write also matters. I love that. Do you want to talk or elaborate a little bit about how to achieve that specificity? How much of the 10,000-hour workout you did in the past to reach to a level where everything you write is bang on, which is already there, want to understand the process of you going— your writing process of going from a thought to like being very specific.

Yeah, it's constant tinkering with it. So I have said before that I'm not the type of person who needs everything to be perfect. I don't sit down and say, I'm going to write the perfect article or the perfect profile. What I do is I write a first draft, just, just get it all out on the page, and then I go back and I tinker with every sentence, every word, every comma. Does it sound right? One of the things that I learned is, like, for example, if you don't have an editor to check your work, if you read it out loud, your ears will catch what your eyes miss. So you'll be like, oh, that really doesn't sound right. I wonder why. Maybe it's this one word. Switch it. And you start realizing, like, do I speak in passive voice or active voice? That says a lot about your personality too. Do things happen to me or do I exert my own willpower on the world? And then you see, for example, do you speak in run-on sentences? Do you kind of ramble? And the way you achieve specificity is basically going through every single sentence, looking at every word and saying, is this an absolute? Is this an adverb? Is this just an unnecessary fluffy adjective that I don't need? Take it out. I think it was Stephen King who said, basically, your final draft is your first draft minus 10%. It's just like constant, constant cutting. Mm-hmm. To get to the point. And it's, it's hard for people to get to the point.

I think also Malcolm Gladwell, in the profile you did with him, uh, he also mentions that it's better to be interesting, not perfect, right? Like, the way you, you become interesting is to put yourself out, be curious, and do things in a repetitive way, and it gets better over time. And I, I love that what you said about, uh, Getting there is more important than getting there in the right way. Right. So I love that. How do you pick people? Like, when you write profiles, there are almost close to 8 billion people. And of course, like, the successful ones are very limited. But even then, what is your criteria of choosing them?

You'd be surprised at how much I leave up to chance and serendipity. I'll hear about someone's story, and because I'm trying to see the world through a lens of people, I'll hear a story and be like, that person sounds absolutely fascinating. I want to research them more, talk to them, or learn more about them. And what I look for in a story of quote-unquote success Is how I described a life well-lived. So, somebody who's achieved something that they wanted to achieve, whatever it may be in their field, in their personal life, something that meant a lot to them. They achieved that thing, then they failed miserably, then they learned a very important lesson. They took those learnings and they went on to have a second act and achieve something else again in the right way. Mm-hmm. My husband and I talk a lot about like, Who you are, that basically every person has a fall. So who you are before the fall is probably going to be different than who you are after the fall. And when you've had some sort of loss or failure in your life, it changes you. If it only changes you if you take the lessons that you've learned and apply them to what you pursue next.

Adversity is the best lesson. and best motivation to become change. Right. And you said absolutely nailed to the coffin. When did you face adversity in your life? When did you realize that, you know what, this is too much, I'm going to give up? What is your fall?

Yeah. Oh, great question. Here's the thing. I think I look at my life in small chapters. I'm actually— I don't know if I've had the major fall yet, but I've had a lot of small setbacks. But I never said, I quit, I'm done, I can't move on. Mm-hmm. And I think it has something to do with like being an immigrant. When you're— when you immigrate from another country, in my opinion, it's one of the hardest things you can do because not only are you quote unquote starting over, but you have to learn so much in such a short period of time that your brain is almost like, wow, this is so much information that I don't even know where to begin to process it. So, so for me, probably the hardest period of my life, if I'm being honest, is being a child and moving to Atlanta and having to learn the cultural differences and making friends and learning the language. Like, all of those things for a kid is just so much that it took me a lot to process, and it actually sort of changed my personality. Um, but, but it did— the, the one lesson that I took away from that experience is that it made me more resilient, but also like more able to hold different perspectives that may not, you know, fall a certain way and be okay with that. So I'm able to see, you know, why certain people voted a certain way while not agreeing with certain policy. Like, I I can hold various truths in my mind because I have perspective and I've met so many different types of people. Um, you know, not every immigrant is quote unquote how you would expect them to be. Not every Southerner is how you expect them to be. You know what I mean? So it's like,

right,

right,

right.

I, I have the, the value of perspective that many of my friends growing up didn't have.

Basically, that's chip on the shoulder, right? Like, you have constantly that chip on the shoulder. And when you make that decision of moving from a country to a whole new world, I think you already made up your mind that you are never going to give up, period. So I feel that's why I really, really respect immigrants. They're just hungry. They're like passionate, hungry, just want to prove the world that they can do it. And even till today, I'm kind of pushing myself. I have a full-time job, I have this, uh, podcast and other things. I still am like, what can I else— what else can I do?

Yeah.

So that question really comes back to mind. Uh, adversity, the fall. I, I was expecting— I remember a tweet from you back in 2017-ish, if I'm not wrong.

Oh my God, 2017.

Yeah. I think moving from Fortune and you're starting The Profile. And I remember this tweet particularly because you said it's really hard to build your own thing. And even during the 2020 COVID times, you kind of expressed the same. So I was expecting like those, but yeah, this is really better. So talk to me about the Now that you talked about you moving to the US, right? What does the kid who moved from Bulgaria have common in Polina, who is a mom, author, who's pretty successful writing for a living, who's inspiring others? What is that commonality that still continues even till today that you carry?

I think it sounds bad, but it's actually a good thing. I think that I never stopped seeing myself as an outsider. So, when we moved to the US, obviously, you're an outsider kind of looking in. What can I learn? How can I improve? And whatever. But then now, I still feel like an outsider, even as when people describe me as an author, I don't feel like an author. I just feel like— I'm doing what I've done my whole life, which is interview people and write. I don't see myself as like, oh, I'm this important author. That's not how I see it. And so I still feel like an outsider in the publishing world. In terms of becoming a parent, it's the most amazing thing, but I'm still learning. I think the outsider mentality is just like, You constantly feel like you're learning and you never feel like you've made it. And I recently interviewed J.J. Watt, who is this legendary football player. Yeah. And he said something similar. He was like, I never— I asked him, how did you stay grounded after you'd had a taste of success? And he was like, I was too scared of what would happen if I stopped working hard. It's the same with me for learning. I'm too scared of what might happen if I'm just like, you know what, I've made it. I'm an author. I'm a published author. That doesn't exist within me. So I think being an outsider has actually proven to be one of my greatest strengths.

I love that. Big fan of JJ Watt. I haven't completed today's post.

Yeah,

you just published today. Oh my God, he had a run with the Cardinals, Texans. He's doing, I think, broadcasting right now as an analyst. So shout out to him. One day, one day we'll bring him onto the podcast.

There you go.

What's one thing that you do every day that sucks?

Oh, that's— let's see. I think that I force myself to reach out So right now I'm, I'm focusing on doing more original interviews rather than just curating articles. I really enjoy interviewing people. It's just getting to the interview is the suckiest part, as you may know. Mm-hmm. Um, so it's constantly chasing people, writing emails, filling out forms, things like that that I really, really don't enjoy. And also another thing that maybe I don't do every day, but I do on a consistent basis. Is I force myself to do public speaking or, um, podcasts or interviews where I'm the one being interviewed. I don't particularly enjoy it because I like being in control, so I like asking the questions. And I also don't like— I also don't like being the center of attention.

So that's the authenticity I really like about you, which is Let's be honest, I like the other side of the word. But yeah, go ahead. I didn't mean to stop you.

Yeah, no, it was funny. I was talking to a friend who's a comedian, and I was like, how do you go out on stage and do stand-up? That's incredible to me. I could never do that. And she said, actually, being on stage is like where I have full control because I can tell my jokes a certain way. I can command the crowd a certain way. I never saw it like that. I thought When you're public speaking, it's just you have zero control. All the attention is on you. I don't like it. But that kind of changed my framing of it.

That's really amazing. That's a different way to attack fear, right? The thing that you avoid is generally the thing you have control in, if you think about it. I love that. I love that so much. That's, I think, probably the biggest takeaway from this episode. Now that you talked about interviewing, um, the process and all that, you know, one of your popular clips— I find it very fascinating, even I have bookmarked it— is about your journalism professor saying people are not inherently boring, you're not asking the right questions. Yeah. Talk to me about the art of asking right questions. So you kind of touched upon in the beginning about research, you know, things that didn't mention before. But even then, it's tough to ask right questions at the right moment. The timing is important, the context should be important. So what, with your experience of interviewing so many people, talk to me about it.

Yeah, this is again goes back to the control thing. I think a lot of times where people who interview others make a mistake is that they expect their guest or their subject to be entertaining. But actually, you're in control of asking great questions. So, if you don't take the opportunity to ask good questions, it's not going to be a great interview no matter if it's the most interesting person on the planet. I'm lucky I learned that in college because I can apply it now. And usually, I like to have hour-long Plus interviews because the first 30 minutes is just kind of building rapport and getting to know each other and getting the subject to trust me enough to open up. Even if you watch the JJ interview, the first 30 minutes are kind of like, eh, and then it gets really good because he gets super comfortable. And if you notice, one thing that I do in all of my interviews is I offer something personal, which is what you did too. Mm-hmm. You, you told me what we have in common. Um, you shared something of yourself. And I think most interviewers just go straight. They're like, I'm gonna get to my questions. I'm gonna ask my questions. But the best ones like Oprah, they, they, um, they share something vulnerable to make the other person feel comfortable.

Mm-hmm.

And then the other person wants to give more and open up more. Uh, I found that really helpful. The other thing that I think about a lot is I learned this from Brandon Stanton, who does Humans of New York. And so, he gets complete strangers to open up and share these crazy life stories where you're like, oh my God, they would never even tell their closest friends that or family members sometimes. So, I'm like, how do you do that? And he said that he often looks for the gaps and the questions that he asks, there's typically a gap that forces the person to fill it in. Yeah. So for example, what is your biggest regret? How did your life turn out differently than you expected it to? The gap in expectations versus reality. Um, you know, what, uh, um, who, who are you today versus how were you different as a child? Things like that. Um, that forces people to think like, oh, maybe there is, maybe I have changed. There's a sort of transformation or metamorphosis. Yeah. That maybe they haven't reflected on before. But it, but it's really cool because, because the really good stories come out and there was this transformative event or fall or whatever you may call it, that there was a before and an after.

I love that. I, I think, uh, it also, yeah, like you said, forces people. And what I observed is that the more you ask about the journey the more people get vulnerable. It's not about the tactics, the lessons.

Yeah.

It's like, you know, how did you come to Atlanta? What was like your first initial days? That sort of thing. Talk to me about success. In your pinned tweet, you just said about success for so many people, it's status, money, you know, something else tangible. What is Polina's definition of success.

Personal fulfillment. You've done something that you feel has made your journey in this lifetime a worthy one. And I really, really do think that people don't realize how fulfilling it is to share the lessons they've learned in their own life with others. So that's part of the reason I wrote the book. It's like I have all this stuff in my head and I have all this stuff that I've written. How do I compile it into a book where somebody can pick it up and be like, okay, like, here's all the knowledge that she's written and that she's gained over the last 5 years. There's something about that transfer of knowledge to me that it like is success. I don't measure success as like, like you said, like material things, wealth, status, cars. But I do think that by asking people how they measure success, It tells you a lot about what they value because some people do value those things and that does make them feel successful. But others are more— Matthew McConaughey says to him, success is a measurement of 5 things, some of them being how he's as a husband, how he's as a father, things that aren't quite quantitatively measurable, but you can sit down and reflect on them and be like, What can I do to improve in these areas? So it's honestly just a substitute of your value system.

I love that. Yeah. Oh my God. I feel a lot many people just chase the chips when they have to chase either memories or make other people's memories happen. Right. I think that's the key goal. I think the fulfillment is really something that is never going to run out. That tank is going to be forever filled because there are so many other people you can help with. One question I forgot to ask about interviewing, which I just remembered. You dropped so many things, I get confused. I'm getting confused, like, which one to pick and what not, what to ask. Now that I remembered, you interview like some of the best people in world, like JJ Watts, you know, so many— Miranda Gates. They're legends, right? Uh, the first interview to the interview you did today with JJ Watson— JJ Watts— do you feel imposter even till today, uh, versus the first interview ever?

Struggle with imposter syndrome because I don't I don't have it in the way that people claim they have it. Like, I don't feel like I've worked so hard and I don't deserve this. Or, you know, like imposter syndrome is like, oh, look, people are going to find out I'm actually a fraud. Like, I don't feel that way. What I feel is that I know when I go into an interview, depending on who it's with, they will likely underestimate me. And that happened a lot at Fortune, which is Um, you know, I would interview a Fortune 500 CEO. I'd walk in the room, they'd have an idea of what a Fortune magazine reporter looked like. And I probably didn't fit that narrative in their head.

Mm-hmm.

But the, the being underestimated thing, I, I had a lot. And I, at first, in my first interviews, I was like, I wanna be respected immediately and I wanna, but like, that's not how life works. You don't immediately trust people. I don't care who it is. Mm-hmm. Um, you don't immediately respect people. You have to earn that respect over time. In an interview, you have a very short period of time, but you can still do a little bit to show that, A, you respect your interviewee's time by having researched them, and B, you know what you're talking about. So at Fortune, I would actually get a lot of scoops that way because I would walk in, they would be like, okay, they sent in the intern, and I would ask questions That I already kind of maybe knew the answer to, but it showed that I had A, done research, and B, by asking them to explain, they would often over-explain and tell me things that they wouldn't have told other people. And I'd be like, whoa, that's a huge thing you've never said before. So it's just paying attention and being determined to— like, it's okay to be underestimated. It's actually a strength because you don't want to walk in, have somebody be like, wow, this is Paulina, and then like completely fall flat on your face. You want to be underestimated and then prove that you should be there. Right. And then that's like, I have such good relationships with the people that I've interviewed because of that. Because, you know, it's— I don't see it as a transactional thing. I'm like, I'm here to hear from you. You're gonna explain this to me. I'm not out to get you. And, you know, we're gonna work together in a professional manner because the people who burn bridges, you're never gonna get another interview.

Yeah, I, I would say, yeah, what you said is absolutely true. You know, uh, under— being underestimated is a strength, is an advantage because nobody's actually looking at you. You have all the freedom to, like, you know, be yourself, do your thing. And when they come with that, being underestimated actually implies you— they have low expectations of you, which is super awesome because you don't have to impress anyone. Just, like, be yourself and do your thing.

And it's funny, just quick observation. When we started the interview, you told me you were really nervous. If you hadn't told me that, like, I would never even know. Because you're so good at making the guest feel comfortable, but also, um, a really underestimated, uh, underrated, underrated, uh, interview technique is like, you actually listen to what I'm saying. So when I say something, you don't just go to your next question. You're like, oh, you said this about research. That's really interesting. Let's talk about that.

Mm-hmm.

So it's like being willing to take the interview in different directions is the marker of a great interviewer instead of Being like, bam, bam, bam, here are my 10 questions. I got it done. Like, that's it.

It's like watching Fox News. Bam, bam, bam. Yeah, all the media, traditional media.

Yeah, TV. To me, cable news isn't real news, but that's a whole other topic.

Part 2. Part 2.

Yeah.

Let's talk about The Hidden Genius. Oh my God. So I'll be honest with— for the listeners, I haven't read it. I'm dying to read it. I'm reading— He will read it. I will read it. I'll write a summary for sure on Twitter, like a thread. In your opinion, after interviewing these many people, successful ones, the ones who fall, you raise, how do you think humans should push themselves How do they push their boundaries?

I think that they should reframe what they think is failure, because the most successful people that I've interviewed, that I've read about, always know that they have the power to reinvent themselves in whatever way, and that that one chapter isn't it. There's always another one. As long as you're willing to take the lessons and apply them to the next thing. And here's the thing, I think your average person, they think if you fail, they take it so hard because they're like, oh my God, I have to start over and I have to start from scratch. And I think I learned this lesson from my dad first, and then it was just reinforced over time. But for example, he was a chemical engineer in Bulgaria. He moved to the US and he was working as a dishwasher at Popeyes. Like, what a fall, right? Like, most people would see that as a failure.

Yeah.

But when I talked to him, he was like, well, not really, because I still have those skills. I just knew that I had to come here and do this for a little bit and then build on top of that. I think that When you fail, you actually have an advantage over the person who succeeds at that thing because you've already tried something. You can iterate, you can make it better on your next one. That's why a lot of these founders whose companies implode have a chip on their shoulder and they end up creating something even better the next time. Because I mean, before Travis Kalanick created Uber, he had failed a number of different companies before that. Absolutely. But the only thing people see is Uber. So it's like by iterating, you're actually going faster than the competition, um, because you're failing quick— quicker than them and learning more. So it's like, I don't see failure as like a zero, like I'm starting from zero. I see it as I now have this mountain and I'm starting from here for the next thing.

That's a very interesting topic, failure. I want to cover it, cover about it, but you've brought a very interesting point, which is you rise to a level, whatever level it is. It defines you. Do you define that level? For Rock, it's lifting what, 300 lbs every day, whatever it is, right? That's his standard. So irrespective of the standard, you rise and you fall. So do you think, or people, the fall that happens after the rise motivates more Than generally people failing, like failing to reach that standard, right? You know,

totally. Yeah. And, and, and I think it's— I, I think the fall can— is the basically one of the few things that can give you that internal drive to do something even more meaningful next, because, um, it's an intrinsic thing. A lot of times people try to motivate you with external rewards and things like that. That doesn't— that works to a point, but nothing fuels you more than people being like, man, what a failure. Like, look at him. Or what was she thinking? Like, that gives you just a fire that you didn't even know you had. And for me, when I think of myself, I'm a very competitive person. Yeah. But I'm very competitive with like myself. So I do need a little bit of external fuel of somebody not believing or somebody thinking I can't do something to propel that forward.

Now that you said that, so when I was in India, I moved to the US 10 years ago.

Okay.

I had a decent fortune finder job. Uh, I was working at an IT company. It was decent, but I hated it. So I, I know that I had to make a move. I made that move, and I went— when I came here as a student with $500 in my pocket, I have like no clue, the cultural shock and everything.

Yeah.

Now that you said about that, I actually worked as a pizza delivery boy in my university for the— for the good amount of like 12 to 18 months. I don't want to go back. So in a way, you Now I'm realizing that I think in back of my mind, that is something that pushes me, you know?

Yeah.

You should not go back, number one. And all my relatives said I did something wrong. Everybody, everybody disapproved when I made a decision that I have to move to the US, and they're like, no, you will not survive there. You're an introvert. Look at yourself. So I feel like you said, the fall that happens after a certain rise has much more impact in your life than a general fall.

And it's like The Rock, he— when he was a kid with his mom, they got evicted. And for some— for whatever reason, that just like stuck in his head. And to this day, he says, I'm always— in the back of my mind, I'm always one step away from getting evicted. So it shows you how he thinks about like Yeah, you can have all the success, but remember, one misstep, it could happen again. So it's like, yeah, like you said, in the back of your head, it's like those voices that keep fueling you.

Yeah, I love that. Someday we should talk to Rock in the show.

Yeah, we should.

I know we are kind of like 5 minutes away. I have like a few more questions. In your opinion, how to be comfortable with the uncomfortable? Have you ever— do you have like a framework that you implement every once in a while?

Um, I try. So my husband said this to me one time. He said, never believe or never let others believe in you more than you believe in yourself. So it's like, I think about that when I'm about to do something I really don't want to do, like public speaking, but I do it anyway because I want to build the self-confidence Where it's not just other people being like, oh, Polina, you can do it. It's like, I want to believe it myself. So it's constantly putting yourself in these very uncomfortable places and then seeing how it turns out. And now I know I can public speak without completely falling flat on my face. So that builds a little bit more self-confidence every time I do it.

I think it's just like James Clear mentioning about the the 1% adjustments that you need to do in your life as habits. What you said is absolutely true in that way, which is you just have to put yourself uncomfortably only 1%. Don't do it

in small ways. Yeah,

I think that way you kind of build that muscle over time and you feel like you will develop a thick skin.

Exactly.

So many amazing takeaways. A couple of more questions. I do have like a rapid fire, which, you know, which is like 5 questions I want to ask.

Perfect.

But what, in your opinion, what makes a human being a top performer?

Betting on themselves at some point in their life. At some point in their life, they say, I'm willing to step, step away from the comfortable and the secure and bet on myself and my own skills that I can make this work no matter how difficult

Hmm. It's so tough, right? Like, especially when during those falls, when you have this external noise, even your internal noise, voice, an external voice becomes noise, which constantly pulls you down. I feel that's where I feel we should all pull ourselves up and say, hey, you know what, I'm going to do this, go all in.

Mm-hmm.

Let's do the rapid fire.

Let's do

it. You've done many profiles. What's your favorite profile so far?

Oh, the one I did on Sara Blakely. Even though I never got to interview her, I learned so many lessons about becoming an entrepreneur and not letting the noise distract you.

Awesome. And a profile you dream about, meaning they someday they're the ones who you want to like feature for sure.

Definitely The Rock.

Like a direct interview, right?

Yeah, just me interviewing him. I have so many questions.

Awesome. Who's your top performer that you want to give a shout out to? Like, who's your favorite That comes to your mind? It can be part of Hidden Genius, uh, yeah, catalog, or anybody else.

I would say MMA champion Francis Ngannou. If you don't know his story, look it up. You will be so incredibly inspired by what he overcame. And I think he embodies the— what I just said about betting on yourself and taking risks and stepping out of your comfort zone.

Who's your favorite creator?

Oh, creator, actually, um, probably, probably James Clear, just because he's so consistent. He's been so consistent over like a decade, um, and I don't think he gets enough credit with the newsletter that he puts out and, and everything else. Yeah.

Oh man, he literally changed my life. That Atomic Habits, like, massively changed. Uh, last question. Uh, which profile that you didn't feature in Hidden Genius that you wished, like, oh my God, it would've been a great profile?

I actually didn't include The Rock in Hidden Genius.

Oh, that's a spoiler alert for me.

Yeah. Yeah. But, um, I, I, he, he's definitely very inspiring. Um, but the themes that I had in the book, uh, it somehow didn't fit.

Oh, part 2, Hidden Genius part 2. Uh, Polina, I have to tell you this. I, I so wish we had some more time because I have so many other questions. Probably like we'll bring you back, but I had so much fun.

We'll do another part. Yeah,

I think you as, uh, you as a guest makes the interviewee, like the interviewer, very comfortable. So I, you talk a lot about the other way, but I just want to give credit to you because you made me so much comfortable. You were so easy to talk and whatnot. Big shout out to— I want to give a big shout out to a couple of folks. Anna, I interviewed her on the podcast. Love her to death. She's amazing. She opened my eyes about schools as a parent. She

made me aware of something fantastic. Yeah.

And Pomp.

Yeah, big fan.

That guy is a legend. Let me tell you a Brief story before we wrap up.

Yeah.

So I, I, on the side, I'm a founder and I built this SaaS product like 2 years ago, 2021, and I hit $1K MRR. Okay. Out of the blue, Palm, the Palm. And I was, I shared the news and he said this, actually I bookmarked it. He said about like, this is just the start. $1K will turn to $10K to $100K to so on and so forth. Just keep going.

It's true.

That guy is a legend. He's still, you know, so down to earth. He still wants to support people in his own way. So big shout out to him. I think I should bring him on the pod too. But Paulina, thank you so much. I really appreciate you joining the show. And for folks listening, thanks for your attention. Appreciate you guys. That's a wrap.

Thank you so much. Really appreciate it. That was great.

Yeah, I hope I want to rush into it. But, uh, it was really great. You know, I, I still have some things.

It's all right. We'll do a part 2.