Using Workshops to Grow Your PT Clinic from the Ground Up with Derek Nielsen | CashPT Lunch Hour #83

Welcome back to the Cash P2 Lunch Hour podcast. This is Aaron LeBauer your host. And today I have serial guest Dr. Derek Nielsen on the podcast. And Derek is a physical therapy cash practice owner in Durham, North Carolina. And the reason I say cereal, because he's been on here a couple times, because Derek spent a year working here at our clinic in the Kashpati residency. And if you haven't heard Derek's story yet, there's nothing you need to know before we talk about today's episode. But if you want to hear where he is on his journey, go back and check out episode 33 and episode 40. Episode 33 was, like, a few months into his residency. Episode 40 was almost exactly a year ago from this recording. And today, Derek is almost exactly one year in business, in Cash Practice. So, Derek, thank you very much, and welcome to the show.

Yeah, I appreciate you letting me come on again. Yeah, of course.

You know, I think you might be. Besides me, you might be the other, like, most popular.

I don't know.

Popular is right. But your most frequent voice on the show. So you've made a big impact on my business and my life. So thank you very much for being here today.

Yeah, likewise. Definitely.

So what I want to do, Derek, it's been a year since you started, right? Like, you remember, was it. Was it June? May? I can't remember the exact date.

Do you remember that I started working for you?

For you? Working for you?

Oh, yeah. It's almost been a year. I'm rounding it to a year, but I really started, like, two weeks into June.

Okay, awesome. And then we finished up. I think Tyler came in the beginning of May last year. And then you finished. I think you took, like, a week off and, like, chilled out, did some stuff, and then ramped it up in the beginning of June, Right?

Yeah.

Awesome. So one of the things that I want to share with everyone,

there are

a couple things and I've shared before, and we'll talk about this, but I want to share, like, remember about six months ago, I think you were like, oh, man, Aaron, I'm struggling a little bit. Like, what were you doing? How did your business come along? And we sat and we went through my whole calendar from 2009 to 2010, and we went through two years of my calendar until I was seeing 15 people a week average. And that's what you were doing at that point, six months into business, and I remember thinking, like, wow, Derek got what, you know, it took me two years to do. He got it in six months. You remember that, that day we sat down, what were you thinking at that time and what was going on at that time? And then after we looked at that, what did anything change?

What I was thinking at that time was I was a little bit frustrated because I think I got off to a hot start. Yeah. And so it was like, oh, I'm feeling really good about, hey, I've got all these patients and this is going to be skyrocketing within no time at the trajectory that I'm on. But unfortunately it didn't go like that. The hot starts always great. Right. Because at least I can, I can get out of the negative and start going positive pretty immediate. But then I hit a plateau, you know, six months in, where I was feeling a little bit frustrated. I wasn't getting in the community as much. I wasn't getting referrals, I wasn't getting new patients. Fortunately, I still had a decent schedule, but it just wasn't going as I had hoped.

What did you expect?

I expected to be full. Yeah, I expected a full caseload, which is, you know, if I could, if I can hit 20, 25 a week, I'm feeling pretty good, which I'm not there yet. I'm not there yet. But now I have more perspective, I guess. Mm.

And. But at 20 something a week or even a little less, you're still doing okay financially, right?

Yeah, yeah, everything's rolling, everything's good. I'm, you know, I'm not too stressed about, about a whole lot. And I've got, I've got the funds to be able to put money elsewhere to, for marketing and different things like that.

Hell yeah. Awesome. So what is it that that's changed in the last six months?

It's really more of the same. I mean, I'm still sitting in that 10, 15, 17 patients a week, but I'm doing, I'm doing less, less marketing within the, within Durham. So I'm not having to get out in the community near as much, but I'm still sitting on that, you know, 10 to 17 patients a week, which allows me to be able to do some more internal stuff and, and SEO and Facebook and Instagram and try and figure out more about business without having to just get out in the community and hustle and grind.

Right, right.

And try and build something that's more long term, if you will.

So immediately when you started it was, okay, what do I need to do to get in patients now? Get money now. And now it's turning into, okay, I've got patients now, like, how do I ensure that they're going to keep coming.

Yeah. Because I do enjoy getting out in the community every now and again. It's fun to meet new people and teach people things that they really need to know. But it's also. It's usually a weekend thing or a nighttime thing, and it takes away from your life. And I really like to get set up, like Le Bower Clinic has, where he doesn't need to go out in the community if he doesn't want to, you know, get the back end stuff where the Internet's just kind of helping you out.

Right, right. Yeah. It's pretty incredible. And that's one thing that I think you hammered home to me and I finally realized is that when you were working here, and if we just want to stay steady, like, we don't really have to do anything.

We just.

Like, Aaron, you're just hanging out, coaching people, not even marketing. I mean, what was your experience with that? Like, you know, how did that. Did that, like, negative effect negatively affect you? And you, like, started your own business and you're like, you know, what was.

No, that positively affected, for sure. Because I knew what I could look. Look forward to. Yeah. Because if you're doing it, then I know it's possible.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Because I didn't want it to be like, oh, well, you don't have to do this or not. Or like, even my 20 years of, like, what's it called? Being. I don't even, like, say I'm jaded, but, like, sometimes I say things, I'm like, oh, maybe I shouldn't say that to these guys because, you know, that's how I feel. But that's not how they feel.

Yeah.

You know, so tell me. So you started in. I think this was pretty impressive. You shared with me some results as we went along. And I'm not. And I don't want to share these things to say, like, you know, this is like. Like to brag. But within about. I think within six weeks. Was it six weeks. Within two months, you had generated $10,000 in revenue. Remember that? And I think, like, eighth month, you were like, Aaron, we're over 15,000 for the month. And then sometime in January, you're like, dude, we did 5,000 in a day, and I haven't even done $5,000 today. And now a year out, you're close to or over six figures in your business. Is that right?

Not quite. I made it really, really close to six figures, but I didn't quite get there. Yeah. Yeah.

And you started in, like, A brand new town, you didn't know anyone. And so, I mean, this year, I mean, this year you're on track to do six figures probably for the second year, right?

Yeah, I better be.

Yeah, yeah, you better be. Or what?

Or I'm doing something wrong or I'm probably going to go out of business.

Right, right. So. And one of the reasons I want to bring this up is because I feel like a lot of people I talk to have just the expectation that they want to do this and just, you know, get 4,000, $5,000 a month so they can quit their other job. In your experience, why is it important to either aim high or go big or say, look, you know, like, six figures is a real realistic thing. Like, why, why is it not a problem for you to sell physical therapy and feel bad about charging higher prices?

Because I've been on the other side of it. Yeah. And I mean, I started with you right out of grad school. Right. So I'm not like a, you know, I didn't, I didn't treat patients in the, you know, in the model where people are treating two, three, four patients at one time. I didn't do it for very long, but I did it long enough to know that I didn't want to do it ever again. And so knowing that and the clinical rotations that I was on and some of the clinicians that mentored me in the rotations, I just felt like there was so much more to give. Then that's when I started searching out, okay, how can I make this work? Is there a different route that I can take? This is back in grad school trying to figure out, I don't want to go down this route because I'm going to get burnt out, and I know I can give so much more. I knew it was possible to charge more. I knew that physical therapy, it's not just about what, what the public thinks that we give. It's, it's. We give so much more than that. And there's so many people out there that have absolutely no idea what we can offer.

Right.

And, and once we can, once we can really, once we really can let people know what we offer and prove to them through testimonials, past patients, educating them, price really goes out the window to a certain point.

What kinds of things are you doing or saying to people where it doesn't really matter what you're charging?

Well, I give a satisfaction guarantee, number one, so that always helps a little bit. I'll let people know that if they don't feel like the session was worth it and they're not satisfied with the session, don't pay for it. I make a payment plan. So if somebody doesn't have the funds in order to pay for a package up front, let's do a payment plan. So no matter what, no matter what the objection is, there's a way around it. And it doesn't usually come down to money for the reason why somebody's not going to buy. Now, there are those instances where it does, but typically it doesn't come down to cost as much as. Do they trust you? Do they, do they believe that you can help them? Because if they fully believe that you're the solution to their problem, they're gonna typically make it work. As long as we have the processes in place to, to make the money side of things work. Like a, you know, like, like a CareCredit, for example, some way to make it so that they can, they can pay, but they're not necessarily stuck with that big lump sum in the, in the beginning they have a payment plan throughout the longer period.

Are you using CareCredit?

I did for a little bit, but they take too much money.

Yeah.

And so I went away from that. I'm thinking about using PayPal because PayPal is a card that I believe is. I haven't used it yet. I've been doing a couple of self. Because this is how you do it as well. Is you self finance? Not really finance, but you allow them to pay over an extended period of time, which doesn't cost you any money. It doesn't cost them any money. So it's a win win situation. But you are liable if they don't pay. You got to chase them down, which is the scary part.

Yeah, we haven't since we've been doing that for a little over a year. We haven't. Maybe it's been a year and a half. We haven't had to chase anyone down. There have been a couple times where cards didn't run through and it wasn't like a chase like I've experienced in the past where people are like dodging you. You know, they're like, oops, oops, didn't get paid or something like that.

But.

So why is it that you think most people struggle? I would say most other physical therapists who are thinking about charging cash or charging cash. Why do you think they're struggling? Getting past the money conversation, getting past the objection of insurance and oh, it's too much.

Because they aren't their typical patient. I think that's the biggest thing is you're not your typical patient. What I paid for, you know, would I pay 250 for a session this very minute? Absolutely not. Absolutely not. I would not. But if I was in this, if I was in the circumstance where my pain was stopping me from doing X, Y and Z and, and working comfortably, sleeping a full night's rest, 250, I would absolutely pay that. I would paid a couple thousand dollars to get my life back. And so I think a lot of people get stuck on, you know, you're not your patient, somebody else is your patient and somebody else is wanting you. They're looking for you, they're looking for a solution. They don't want pain meds, they don't want injections, they don't want surgery and they want their life back. They don't know where to get it. And that person is not thinking about cost, they're thinking about a solution. And if you can be a solution to that person, you know, that you can't really put money, a dollar sign on that. And there's so many people out, in, out and you know, in the public that are looking for you. They're looking for a solution and they've gone to pt, they've gone to Cairo, they currently go to massage and they find a little bit of help, but they don't find any long term lasting effects and they're paying money, they're paying money to somebody and they're, they're not finding a long term solution even though they're paying money to somebody. So it's really not getting caught in looking at the mirror and thinking about that you're your own patient. And also, don't listen to people that tell you you charge too much. Listen to the people that pay for your services. Listen to them and see what they think about it and find more of them.

Right, right. That's awesome. Have you had other people tell you you charge too much, like physical therapists or, you know, people around you saying, hey, Derek, you shouldn't be charging that much even though they're not your patients?

Yeah, definitely. I have some people that I went to grad school with have told me that. But, you know, that's, I'm fine with that. I just kind of laugh it off and say, well, I've got 15 patients this week, we'll keep going.

Right? No, that's awesome. Yeah, I think at some point I was struggling and this was like 10 years ago. 10 years ago, maybe a little bit less. And Andra was like, Aaron, Will your patients keep coming in? You know, they. They think you're. You're doing great for them. And I was like, oh, yeah, listen to what the patients want. So how do you find your perfect patients? Like, what are you doing to get in front of these people who want you to help them and need you to help them?

You know, the biggest thing, the biggest driver for me in the first year has been workshops. It's been getting out in the community, going to gyms. I was in a situation where I was renting space out of. For the first, like, eight months, I was renting space out of a. Out of a facility that had enough room for a workshop. So I would run one of those every month and get some people in from there. But that was the biggest driver, was just getting in front of people, because I think that the quicker that we can get in front of people mean the quicker they're gonna know, like, and trust you, and the faster they're gonna come in for a visit.

So how did you. Can you tell us a little about the workshops? Like, how did you, like, get them booked? You know, like, what. What was the easiest way or what was the way you found to be able to go and say, hey, get a. Get a workshop at, like, you know, the gym or burn bootcamp or something?

How'd you get.

Get those contacts when you did that?

Honestly, I just emailed everybody, and if they didn't get back to me, I emailed them again. And if they didn't get back to me, I emailed them again. You know, I would have stood better chance if I probably would have walked in there, and some people never got back to me, but it was just totally fine. But walking in there, I probably would have stood a better chance of getting a workshop with them. But at the same time, there's so many gyms and healthcare facilities, and it's insane how many there are around. So, I mean, if you're. If you want to work with, like, CrossFit athletes, obviously you should just go to the CrossFit gyms and walk in there. But I'm just. I'm just. I want to work with active people. I don't necessarily want to work with. Not that I don't want to work with them. I definitely do, but I'm not, like, stuck into a niche, you know, I want to work with everybody. Everybody that wants to stay active and healthy and mobile. They're my patient. I was fine. Let me just email all the gyms in the area and let me. Let me invite them for coffee. First of all, hey, I want to get to know you. I want to get to know your gym. I want to see if I can save your clients from falling off your schedule. So right there, I'm trying to offer them something of a value, right? It's, it's. I'm trying to save them money by saying, hey, let me, Let me offer you something of value. Let me get in front of your clients. Let me do free movement screens, free movement assessments. I'll even give them one or two things that they can start doing immediately so that they can, they can feel better in their workouts. And if you're having clients fall off of your, off of your schedule, let's talk about it, right?

That's awesome.

And so it's a win, win for everybody. It's a win for the client because they feel better. They keep being able to exercise. It's a win for the personal trainer or the gym because that client keeps coming in and paying them. And then it's obviously one for me because I'm helping people out and I'm making money as well.

Right, that's great. So you're not like leading with a. Hey, I, I'm a physical therapist and I do these great workshops on plantar fasciitis. You're leading with something of value, asking questions, you know, inquiring. Right?

Yeah, I'm trying to figure out what, what is, what do they struggle with? And that's really. That I can help with, obviously. What do they struggle with that I can help with? And it's, it's people falling off due to injury. My brother's a personal trainer and he knows exactly how it is. He has to refer out, he has to refer some of his clients out to if there's therapist, you know, and that costs him money.

Yeah, yeah. So once someone says, yes, Derek, let's meet for coffee, you know, or they're interested in chatting with you, how does that, how do the next steps go? What do you offer? How do you get in to run this workshop?

The far majority of them have been just pure movement. Screen. Hey, let me, let me, you know, let's meet for coffee. Let's talk. Okay. Then they. We start to start to conversate and figure out, hey, well maybe we could be a good match here. When can I come in? And you know, during or at. Before or after one of your gym sessions and offer free movement screens to anybody that wants them. And that's worked really well. And then I'll go straight from there. So I'll do a movement, screen the individual and say, hey, this is what I'm seeing. But what I would like to do is offer you a free total body diagnostic where you can come into the clinic and sit down with me for 30 to 40 minutes. We'll dive into this quite a bit deeper, and I'll know better exactly what's going on. And we could talk about care moving forward, if that's something you're interested in. Heck, yeah, let's do that. And then right there, it's, don't expect the person to call you. They're not going to call you. I made that. I made that mistake in the very beginning, was like, okay, well, reach out to me and we'll get that set up. No, that's. That was a big mistake. Nobody calls. And so it was. I had my phone right there, knew my schedule. Hey, when can you come in? Schedule them right from my phone right there, or at least get their information and call them on Monday morning. But even that is hard to get people to come in, like, try and get them scheduled right in the moment.

So get the commitment right away. Like, not just a verbal commitment, but they got to take some kind of action. Whether it's, you know, like creating a commitment of scheduling or of, you know, even probably when you come to the PBD's, like, putting some money down, right?

Yeah, that's a good idea. I think putting. Having somebody pay some money, obviously, is going to get them a little bit more invested, and it's going to show you how willing they are to move forward with care.

And I'm not saying, like, pay for the tbd, but, you know, versus. I think one of the things that Tyler struggled with, and I don't know if, you know, this was like, over the winter, he was getting a lot of TBDs, and he'd get people at the end, and he wanted to give them so much value that he was like, well, we'll do the eval next week. And he wouldn't get them to commit financially, and they just disappear. Versus converting right then and getting that commitment of let's pay for today or let's commit to the plan of care, that kind of thing. That's what I'm thinking of.

Gotcha.

Yeah. Have you had a similar experience at all? Like, where we're going from the free visit to the paid eval has. You've struggled with that and figured out a way to make that work the best?

Yeah, definitely. I still struggle with it because everybody's a little bit different. You're like, what do they want? How can I show the most value? Do they really want me to give them a little bit of treatment and see if I can improve their symptoms in five minutes? Or would they rather just talk? What is somebody? And you're always taking guessing a little bit. But right now I'm transitioning because I was doing a lot more. Okay, let me just show them that I can help them by actually helping them and doing a little bit of treatment. But I feel like that kind of hasn't worked as well. So what I'm going to transition to now is, you know, it's always a test retest all the time. But I'm gonna. I'm gonna transition to. Let me just talk more. Let me ask them. Let me ask them more personal questions. Let me ask them what they want in a physical therapist. Let me ask what a perfect treatment looks like to them, what it stops them from doing, what their number one goal is. Just listen a lot more and talk a lot more and do a very, very little amount of movement and just do enough screening and identify their problem, push them where it hurts, and say, I can help you the end. And I think that's going to work a little bit better, especially with the amount, because we just started running some Facebook ads that have gotten us some traction. We've got quite a few of these TBDs lined up. And I could feel, you know, I could find myself getting frustrated if I'm like, gosh, I can help you. I know I can help you, and I give you treatment. I'm like, what did I do wrong? But this way, just talking with them a lot more, I think will help me out as well. It won't allow me to get as frustrated if people don't move forward with care. But I think my. I'm hoping that it also improves my rate as far as people moving forward.

Yeah. So what's so frustrating about it when patients aren't moving forward with care?

Because I feel like I give so much for free, Right. So when they come in, It's a full 45 minutes. I basically treat it like an evaluation, which I think has bit me in the butt a little bit. As far as. As far as my mindset, you know, giving so much value to somebody and then they don't move forward. When you know you can help them, you prove to the. To them that you can help them. Like, for instance, I just had a patient come in for one of those free ones, and I gave her some treatment, and then she ended up coming in for One visit and dropped off. And I was like, what happened there?

What did I do wrong?

And the next thing I know, she's over at the medical massage clinic. She's like, well, I didn't think physical therapy was going to get me all the way there. Where did I go wrong? Really? It came down to the cost. Definitely came down to the cost. And so that's another question that I need to address during that tbd. It's a lot more about. At least I'm starting to find out that it's a lot more about, let's just handle these objections. Let's handle the cost objection. Let's handle the fear objection. Let's handle all these objections and then show them a little bit that I can help and identify their problem. Not treat them, but more identify their problem and talk about all the objections that they have in their head. And then I think that. I think. And I'll, you know, I'll update you on my fourth episode. I'll let you know if this seems like it's. It's worked out a lot better, but I think. I really do think it's going to help. And then I know for a fact that's going to help me as well, because I get frustrated. Frustrated. If I'm offering all this treatment, then they don't report it.

Yeah, no, I mean, I think you're on the right track. Because, you know, I've noticed this, and it's interesting. People ask me questions about, Aaron, can you help me with this or help me with that? I was like, well, look, you're not a client. You know, you're not paying me yet, so I can help you. But you're probably not going to do anything because that's just typically, if. If people aren't paying me something, you know, they're not really doing what, you know, like, I'm not the per. It's like they're not contracted with me as the person to do something. There's just like, oh, it's good advice. Maybe I'll listen to it, maybe I won't. But they're not a, you know, a patient or client. And that's what I've found over the last four or five years, is that. Oh, yeah, that's what it is. Because I always know, like, it's frustrating, but I know I can help you. But that person doesn't want me to help. They're willing to sit and wait another six to eight months to see if it just goes away by itself.

Yeah. And that's why you have the free stuff. Right. It's like here, for instance, I wrote a book for patients. If you're not going to move forward with care, let me just give you a book and start to educate you, or read a blog post, or let me send you something that you can start to learn a little bit more, and then maybe, hopefully, you'll start to trust me by reading that.

Right.

And then the next time I see you, it's not a question of if you're ready to move forward with care, because you've read. You've read my book, and you know more about me, you know more about my philosophy, you know more about your body, you know more about healthcare, and now you're finally ready. It's the same thing. I'm assuming it's the same thing with you. It's like, I've got this free stuff. Hey, if you're not a client, read the free stuff. When you're ready, take action on the free stuff. After you've taken action on that, let's talk, and then we can move forward with our services here. Yeah.

What do you think it is that is motivating these patients to come see you, work with you? Is it something you're saying to them? Or is it. Or is it something that. That they have that's different than, you know, maybe other. Other types of patients or other people?

Like, what motivates them to come see me?

Like, what is it that, like. I guess maybe the question is, how do you find out? Like, how do you get. How do you convert someone who. Who's skeptical, who has some objections? How do you get that person to go, oh, yeah, you know, let's work with. I trust Dr. Nielsen. He can help me get better. And maybe the question is, like, what are the big objections and how do you conquer them? Or what is it that you've asked them? And they have this aha moment. They're like, oh, now I trust them, now I can move forward.

Yeah. I mean, it depends on where the person comes from. So if they come from a workshop and they come in for a total body diagnostic, I stand a much better chance of converting that person. If they come in from Google and then they come straight to a total body diagnostic, that's a little bit more work, because that's the first time they've gotten in front of me. The quicker I can get in front of somebody, the more I can get in front of somebody, the more I can educate them, the more I can talk with them, the more they. They know I'm A real person. And then you know that starting to build that without it, without ever having to say, this is your problem. But just getting in front of them and them starting to know you a little bit more brings so much value with them moving forward with care. And that's why workshops really have been the best for me by far. They've been the best because it allows me to get in front of the person not once but twice, get in front of them for the workshop, and then they come in for that Total Body Diagnostic and I get in front of them twice. And then now, like I said, I've made a book and I'll give them a book in that, that Total Body Diagnostic. Here, read this. This is going to educate you even more. The more value that I can bring to that person before I even ask for a penny from them. Let me back up with that Total Body Diagnostic. I do bring value by treating them, but that just doesn't seem like that's been the catapult to get me to sign them up for a plan of care. But the more value I can bring with that book and the workshop and, you know, I think that's, that's helped me out tremendously. I do have a couple referral sources in the area that I get some referrals from as well. So obviously referrals are great. They don't need a whole lot of pushing in the direction to sign up for plan of care. But I always try to provide value before ever, ever asking for a single penny from somebody.

Yeah, that's amazing. So you said. I remember you told me, you said, aaron, as long as I can get in front of someone, I can get, you know, who needs physical therapy, I could pretty much get them in to be a patient. And you told me, like, workshops are tough because it takes a lot of energy, it's a lot of work. Like, it's inefficient. So what are some of the other things that you're doing to get patients in besides just doing workshops or some of the other things that have been working for you?

Those really have been the big thing. Like I said, I got a couple referral sources in the area. I had a chiropractor refer some people to me. I had a PA physician assistant has referred quite a few people to me. She was a patient to begin with and then referred quite a few people to me. I've got a psychiatrist has referred a couple people to me that was a patient. So it's been coming from quite a few different angles. Some people found Us on Google. I ran a Google Ad which got me a couple patients and then asking for referrals. Hey, where's. Do you know any? I just started doing this a little while ago. Is during that. At the end of that Total Body Diagnostic visit. Right now I'm running a referral free session for if someone comes in saying. So the person gets a free session. If somebody comes in off the street and says, hey, this person referred me. And then if they move forward with a plan of care, I'll give out a free session to the person that referred them. Oh, wow. For now. Because I'm still building everything up that's not going to be around long term. But that's. That's here now. And at the end of every total body diagnostic, I'll say to the person, hey, if you benefited from this and you know somebody else you think will benefited from this, here's a card and please give it to them and have them come in for a total free session. I've got a couple from that as well. Cool.

So is that like just a regular business card you give them or is it something different?

I was doing like a Rack card, however big. I don't know how big those are, but I was doing a Rack card and it seemed to do well. But I think I'm just doing it now. I'm doing the regular size business card because it's a little easier to carry around. Just put it in your wallet? Yeah.

Is it just like. Does it look just like a traditional business card? Have a different message on it or anything like that?

Yeah. Well, it does look like a traditional business card and it has the phone number. And then I actually bought a domain that's freeptvisit.com so. And if they type in freeptvisit.com it just takes them right to my website page that has the Total Body Diagnostic right on it. So it's an easy URL to remember.

That's so great, dude. How'd you come up with that? That's really like. That's really an awesome idea.

Frank Kern. Yeah, I was following him for a while and he was using all these URLs to try and get people to buy into his products. I'm like, why don't I just buy a URL for a free PT visit? Yeah, it's just an easy way for people to remember.

And dang, that's a great strategy. Are you doing that anywhere else or is this like the first one?

First thing, I'm doing it for the book as well. I'VE got a book and it's Pain. The Pain Reliefbook. Calm. Yeah.

Awesome. Awesome. That's so cool.

And I was doing. I was trying to get people to opt into the book, but I just started. I'm a little off topic, but I just started. Hey, you know what? I don't even need you to opt in. Just read the dang thing. I don't know. I don't want your name, I don't want your phone number here. Just type in the URL. Get the book, read it. If you like it, there's a call to action in it for a free visit. You can come in for a free visit. Has it worked? I don't know if it really has worked a whole lot yet, but it's still in its infancy. And my, you know, my business and my Google, my SEO is not that great. So people aren't finding me that much. But I have a feeling what's going to happen is that continues to get better. A lot more people are going to get the book, and a lot more people are going to start coming in after they read it, I'm hoping.

Right, right. Well, from what I see, like, your posts on Facebook, when you're talking about the book, like, it's great. It's amazing and great information and, you know, it positions you as an authority. It's like, hey, I'm Dr. Nielsen in Durham and I wrote a book on how to, you know, how to get out of pain or, you know, and live an active life. And it's like, oh, like, what? Other doctors in Durham have a book?

Yeah. And I was talking with Tyler about this. I'm actually going to change the name of the book because it's. Right now it's like, how to get out of Pain and Back to Living Actively. But I'm going to change the name to Misdiagnosed, because I think a lot of people will see that and be like, have I been misdiagnosed? And be like, oh, my gosh, I need to check if I've been misdiagnosed.

Yeah, that's great, dude. That's awesome. We're gonna do. And, you know, it's interesting. I'm planning a masterclass next week for the Platinum Mastermind members and on publishing the first book, so getting it listed up on Amazon, so that'll be interesting to hear what you've done and get yours up there, too. So, I mean, that's a great. I think that's. I mean, that's a great title, man. I think that's. That Sounds really awesome. Because it's. Yeah, it puts a question in people's minds because, you know, how many people come in to see you and say, I have bursitis, you know, in my hip. And I think it's, I think I got it from my parents because my parents have.

And all they did was push on it. Yeah. They diagnosed me with bursitis. Yeah.

Or just took a.

There.

They just, they didn't even push on it. They just gave me an X ray and there was, nothing was fractured. So it must be bursitis.

Yeah. Yeah. You know, I'm hoping the title, that book gets people often into it. Yeah. Yeah.

That's really cool. So tell me about. So we got, we got the marketing, your best marketing strategies. What are some of the marketing strategies that you did that didn't work? You know, that you're like, that was a waste of time or money or effort.

Way more, man. Like I've, I've tried Facebook ads on my own. I haven't, I probably thrown a thousand bucks into it and haven't got anything. Yeah. I actually did get one total body diagnostic out of it, but they didn't become a patient. So that, that's been, that cost me a lot of money. I've tried Google Ads before. I'm up on those, but not up substantially. Yeah. You know, just getting out and trying to meet people. I mean, I've met a whole lot of people in the community that hasn't worked out one bit. Mm. I just started a podcast where I interview people in the community that are kind of like minded, like myself, that are a little bit different approach to healthcare and pain in trying to get, trying to meet more people because I've, you know, a lot of people, I have found when you'll email them and they won't get back to you and you email them again and they won't get back to you, like. But if I say, hey, I've got a podcast and I want to interview you on it, the chance of then getting back to me is a lot greater.

Right.

And for instance, I met a, I met a MD out here. Now she hasn't referred anybody to me and I don't know if she will, but the chances of her allowing, allowing me to come in there and chat with her are. We're very, very slim. But the second that she heard, hey, can I interview on my podcast? I want people to know more about what you do and how you help people. And because she's direct primary care and tell people about what direct primary Care is. She's heck yeah. All about it. Yeah. The chances of me getting in front of that people without having that podcast is probably very slim. I don't think she would have given me the chance. I'm going to meet a surgeon out here in Raleigh, a shoulder surgeon, and same thing, you know, Same thing. He probably wouldn't have given me the chance if I didn't have a podcast. So that's allowing me to get in front of more people. And that's totally free. Right. I mean, it's not going to cost me anything.

Yeah. That's awesome, man. So, like, I think it's the. It's so much more valuable for them. Like, it positions them. You're positioning them as the expert. And like, here I'm going to give you tremendous value. Let me put you up on a pedestal and talk to you about, about you, about what you like to do in front of our community.

Right. It's the same thing with the patients. Right? It really is. It's like, how can I give somebody value before I ask for anything? Like with everybody, if you want to build a relationship with somebody, if you want them to become a patient, if you want to go and meet with them, like, how can I show value before I ever ask for a single thing? If we can show so much value in the beginning, they're going to be willing to part with a lot more money on the back end.

Right, right. Are people starting to approach you to connect with you about patients and have you ever been on the receiving end of a. Not of a no value introduction, you know, like a negative value introduction yet?

Yeah, yeah, I have. I've had a couple personal trainers reach out to me. There's a lady that I've met in the area that's connected me with quite a few different people. Yeah. So it's been here and there.

Yeah. Because, like, I've received more often than not, and I don't get them a ton either, but it's like, it's like, hey, I do X, Y and Z. You should send me your patients. Yeah, like, like, like I don't, you know, like when you receive that and you get that and you think about like, huh, that's not how I want to come across, you know, and that's

like, you know, that's like how typical PTs go to MDs. Like, hey, I can help you out. Let me have your patients. They're like, what?

No, I can help people with back pain. I can just give them these, I can give them Percocet. Or whatever it is. Here's an off topic question. We're talking about opioids. How come in the movies when these actors take opioids, they always put them in their mouth, look up at the sky and crunch them? I don't know, you know, like I was watching movies like they can't find what. Like they're in the desert and they can't find any water.

Gotta get them down somehow.

So that's awesome. So I just want to, you know, I haven't asked anyone that question yet. Maybe I start asking that until I

get the right answer.

So Derek, tell me about some of the sales strategies you use. So there's marketing and then there's sales. Right. There's, you know, it's like, tell me, like in your definition, what's the difference between marketing and sales?

Marketing is getting them to know who you are a little bit. It's just getting your name out your business, out who you can help, educating them about what you do. Sals is really in my mind, sales is getting them in front of you and getting them into the clinic and showing them that you can help with their exact problem. Obviously, if you could do both, it's a lot easier to market to them on the front end and give them value, give them education, blog post, book videos. Then it's going to be a whole lot easier to sell that person on the back end because you've already given so much value. So it's a lot harder to go from directly to a sell without marketing.

Right, right. And when it comes to the time to sell or create your offer or say, hey Ms. Jones, it's going to be $2,000 to fix you or help you fix yourself. Did you ever struggle with that part?

I still do. Yeah, definitely. With, with the assurity that I can help somebody. Mm, yeah, definitely. And that's, that's part of the reason why I have that satisfaction guarantee is for me. Yeah. You know, it's because I genuinely want to help somebody and there's people that I can't. And so I do feel bad, you know, when they're having a part with money that didn't give them a solution.

Right, right. Have you had anyone come back to you and say, hey Derek, you know, like I'm not satisfied with the treatments and asked for their money back?

No. Yeah, yeah, no. Nobody has asked for their money back. I, in fact, I even do have a patient that I didn't get better, but she still wrote me a fantastic Google review.

Mm, awesome. Why is that? Why do you Think that was the case?

I don't know. But I talked to her a couple weeks ago and she's like, hey, I want to come back in there. Okay. Yeah, like, but I just referred you out. Like I referred you out because I wasn't getting you to the place that you were. And she's like, well, I think I'm going to break my arm and come back in there. Yeah, okay.

It's great because you're doing something right. You care about, you show you care about patients.

Yeah, it's true. And it's, it is hard. The money side of it is hard sometimes it's when I can give somebody the result, I'm like, damn, I should have charged more. But it's those people that you don't get the result that you really, at least for me, I really struggle with and I am starting to offer packages. So I just raised my rates because I was having some patients drop off after a couple of visits because they were getting some pain relief and they didn't want to pay the price. And so I raised my rates. At least my single session rates. They're about, they're $51 higher than if you buy a package. So I'm trying to combat the people that just want to come in for two visits and then stop showing up. I mean, if they want to pay 51 more dollars a session just to come in a couple times, that's okay, I guess. But I'd rather have the person that's going to get the long term result and which is why I'm showing them that I'm saving them a lot more money if they buy a package.

Yeah. So it's like a price anchor. You basically like, it's definitely, you can pay 250 bucks coming one at a time or if you commit to coming in over the course of time, I'll give you a, you know, a discount for committing.

Yeah, exactly. And then people get a lot better results when they keep coming and they show up those, you know, those eight visits or so, they're gonna get a lot better result than if they come up for the two and then they just stop showing up. So I'm trying to stop that and by. And I'm stopping that by that price anchor.

Yep, yep. So how come or how do you, like if someone comes in and you know, here's one, one question and they're objection.

I get from a lot of people

is like, oh, if I sell them eight visits and what if they're better in five, what do I do?

It Depends on what. What they define as better. So it's better they're out of pain or is better that they. They move great and they function well. Because I. I find. I find a lot of the times that even eight sessions isn't enough. But it's. But again, it's the cost thing. Sometimes where it's eight sessions is enough for them, but there's still so much that I can work on with them. But again, it's like, what. And I always ask the patient is. It's like, what do you want? Do you want to move better in your neck, even though you complain of back pain? Because there's a lot of neck stuff that we can work on. I see you don't move well there. I see your shoulders need some work. I see your knees need some work. So, I mean, I feel like I could go for the far majority of patients. I could go 15 visits and get them moving better all around. It's not just about the area that hurts.

Just the area that hurts might be the problem that brings them in. It's keeping them from doing what's important to them, but not close to the only thing that's inefficient and not working well for them.

Yeah, definitely. Yeah, there's. I mean, there's always something to work on, right? There always is. And the other thing is, like, I have patients that they start feeling better and. And they don't want that full body thing. They just wanted the pain relief. And I let them know, hey, what do you want from me? Because. Because I can work on other areas. And I. And I'll tell. I'll show them and say, hey, this should be moving like this. This should be working better. It doesn't hurt. But there still is a problem here. And I do have some patients that they don't want me to address that, you know, they're not ready for. You know, they're not athletes. They're not. They're just, you know, 50s, 60s, and they just want to go through their day, be able to go on walks, ride a bike, you know, that type of thing. And so they'll buy a package from me for the. To save the money. But then if they don't use all of them, they save them.

Yeah.

You know, so when they need them in the future, they've got two or three visits that they've already paid for whenever they need them. So that's a package. Even if I don't use the full eight visits, you know, I'll let them know that, well, there's things to work on with you. We could do that. Or you can save those three visits for a later date when you need them. What would you like to do? Yeah. Yeah.

Awesome. That's great. So tell me a little bit about before we wrap up. What's in store for you in the next year? What's your goal for year number two?

I just hired a front desk. She's only working about 12 hours a week, 12 to 15. So my goal is to get her up to 25 or so. I think she's going to cap me at like 25 hours a week. She doesn't want to work more than that. Yeah, I might have to get another front desk. We've got a lot of. We just started the Facebook ads, which have been a lot of leads coming through. So that's going to take a lot of time and a lot of effort. But my goal is to get full. My goal is to see 25, 25 a week, and I'll be happy. And then I would love to be able to start at least considering bringing on another PT within another year. That's not necessarily find one, but at least start saying, okay, I feel like I have. I can count on this amount of patients showing up every month. I can count on this amount of leads coming through. And I can see, you know, I can see by mathematics that we're growing. And so I can start to count on things and then kind of give a good estimate of, okay, I know I'm going to need PT within six months and then bring somebody on. That's where within a year, I would like to be really seriously considering bringing on another. Another pt.

Do you know what you need to do or what metrics you need to hit to make that happen?

Right now I just have a marketing problem that's. And we're starting to figure that out. We're starting to get a lot more leads coming through. My SEO is starting to get better, so some people are starting to find us on Google. That's my big. My big flaw right now. But I know what's going to happen is now that we're starting to get that stuff, I'm going to see another hole in the bucket that I'm going to have to plug. I don't know exactly where that is yet, but it's definitely. I know it's coming. And so there's always going to be something that we need to do. But right now there's a marketing problem with. With getting leads, and we're starting to figure that out. So Where I'm going from there, I don't know yet, but I know, I know it's gonna all of a sudden pop up and it's definitely gonna. Let, let it be known that I need to work in a different area. Yeah.

Awesome, man. So if you had some advice to give to someone else who's recently started their cash practice or they've been struggling for a while and wouldn't want to scale up and hit some, you know, good realistic numbers, what would you, what would you have to say, you know, to them?

I was, I would say start real cheap. First of all, don't overextend yourself. Start really cheap and then come up, come up with a really good workshop presentation. Like, I started with teaching off of a PowerPoint and I actually turned that PowerPoint and it's the foundation of my book because the PowerPoint was converting really well. So I turned that into a book and added on to it. But that's the foundation of the book that I made. So I would recommend come up with a really good presentation. And the presentation that I made was I initially made it for, I think I initially made it for back pain. Can't remember, I think it was for back pain. But that same foundation was I could use it for shoulder pain, I could use it for neck pain, I could use it for knee pain. And I really didn't have to change anything. So if you come up with a really good presentation and you can use it for anywhere in the body, I would say get out in front of people because it doesn't cost you any money. And don't be afraid to just keep asking, keep asking. Gyms, keep asking. Personal trainers, keep asking. You know, even doctors, like, don't be afraid to keep asking. Email them, they don't answer. You email them a week later, they don't answer, email a week later. And just keep reaching out. That's what helped me in the very beginning and that's what got me, got the ball rolling, allowed me to get a little bit of revenue so that I could start putting money towards other areas that can work without me working.

So when you had said like, start cheap, like, like, what do you mean? Like where, when, like we talking 50 bucks?

Or.

I mean, like, can you explain a little bit more? Clarify?

I mean, I, I started, I rented space out of a, out of a wellness center and it cost me, cost me like 350amonth. And I think I had like 20 something hours a week within there. So I didn't have a designated place. Literally I would I would share a space with the people and I had to. And the reason why I left there was because I was busier than. Than all of them. But I didn't have my own room. So when they came in and they had clients, I had to leave the room and go into a different room. I was like, this just isn't gonna work for me. But I would, you know, recommend just reaching out to even a gym. Like, they might have an open room for you. And you can do a workshop right side inside of that gym. Or massage, you know, massage clinic. There's a lot of massage therapists that have available room. They're not. They're not booked 80 hours a week. They've got space and a table if you need one. I mean, they've got all this stuff sitting right there.

Yeah.

But, you know, just get out and find somebody that isn't utilizing all the space that they need. And they, like gyms. Would love to have physical therapist in house. They would absolutely love that.

Yeah, that's awesome. Yeah. And so what you're saying is really like, get out there and make the essential, get the essentials ready to go. Rather than, you know, making sure it's like the biggest, baddest, you know, 5,000 square foot clinic with all the latest equipment. It's more like just get the essentials and get in front of people.

Yeah. I mean, basically all I started with was a table and a bed. Yeah. And my hands and some needles.

Yeah.

And a couple kettlebells. That's right. And a couple kettlebells. But it's. You don't need a whole lot to start.

Yeah. That's awesome. Well, Derek, thank you so much. That's great. I mean, some great nuggets. And if someone wants to find out a little bit more about you, if they want to check out your book, where can they find your clinic and get in touch with you?

Clinic's called Kaizen Physical Therapy. I named it that because my last name is Nielsen, and I just didn't think Nielsen Physical Therapy sounded cool. But Kaizen, I have people call me Dr. Kaizen. It's funny, but it's Japanese. It means continuous improvement. So you could find the website kaizenpt.com you could look at the book. And like I said, I don't make you opt in. So if you want to read it. And that was really the basis of my PowerPoint presentation for the workshops. So you'll see kind of exactly what I talked about in there. If you read it. And you can find that@thepainreliefbook.com you can get that for free. You can find me Facebook, just under my name, Derek Nielsen. If you wanted to contact me, ask me any questions, I'd love to be able to help anybody that I can.

That's amazing. And just so you know, like, you picked the right name for your clinic because you are all about constant improvement and evolving. I mean, you've. Ever since you contacted me the first time a few years ago, like, you're always out there looking for the next thing. How to improve myself. And you're looking to improve yourself not just in clinical skills, but business skills and marketing and how do I help more people?

So, yeah, appreciate that.

I want you to take that as a big compliment.

I appreciate that. I do.

All right, well, thank you for being here today and for the Cash PT Lunch Hour. This has been Aaron Labourer and Derek Nielsen. And we'll see you guys next time. Dream big and go all in with. Go all in with your plans and we'll see you there.

Peace. Thanks.