Ep 256: Fireside Chat - People Advisory Services with Lee Walker

Welcome to another episode of the Club Capital Leadership Podcast. My name is Bradley Hamner, your host. On today's episode, we have Lee Walker, one of the team members at Club Capital, and we are going to be talking about a really exciting new product that Club Capital has recently released called People Advisory Services. I know you're going to get a ton out of this episode. It's going to be able to help you. Without further ado, here's my conversation with Lee Walker.

So the big question is this: how do small business owners like us grow our leadership, develop our teams, and scale our in a way that allows us to get our products and services out to the world, yet still remain profitable? That is the question, and this podcast will give you the answers. I'm Bradley Hamner, and this is the Club Capital Leadership Podcast. Hey, before we get into today's episode, did you know that Club Capital is the largest accounting and advisory firm for insurance agency owners in the country, providing monthly accounting, CFO services, and tax preparation? Check them out at club.capital.

Lee Walker, welcome to the Club Capital Leadership Podcast.

Thank you. Thank you. It's been a long time coming. Been listening to it for over 2 years now.

Awesome. Well, you're on the hot seat now, so you should know what the next thing is I'm going to ask. We always kind of start with background and origin story. And so as a member of the Club Capital team, why don't you give kind of a little bit of your background and how you got to where you are? And then we're going to dive into a couple specific topics today.

Yeah, absolutely. Um, so all of our listeners are pretty familiar with, uh, our friend Chris Ferretti, who was really, uh, instrumental in the podcast here. Um, after I did my master's in essentially what is organizational psychology, um, which is the business psychology, um, and having an really strong affinity for helping businesses essentially make better decisions around their people. He was talking to me about 2 years ago about how Club Capital wanted to do that. And so I thought that was a perfect opportunity to combine what my interests were as well as what this company was doing in a way to really help small businesses make the best of their resources. Um, so I started 2 years ago, uh, almost to the day, about 2 years and a month ago. Um, and have been working on making this a reality. Uh, about 8 months ago, we really dove into it and, uh, been really excited to see how it pans out. We've got a few clients on it already. Um, and we can already see some pretty major differences in how, uh, it's changing the way they start interviewing and just talk to their team, uh, in a way that I think is really going to help them make better team-related decisions.

So before we get into that, why, why does the people stuff of business interest you so much?

So my original background in college was in psychology. Really under—

Yeah.

So that hence the organizational psychology part. And I just like to understand like why people did things. That really is the foundation of all business as it is. And so coming into that, one of the major things that people often forget about is the people. It's been, you know, there's reasons why coaching is so important. Really developing leadership, developing your team. And in the last 20 years, organizational psychology has just started booming. The need has finally been recognized by like major corporations in that, and especially since COVID when there was these massive upheavals in power where for the first time in decades where the employees really had a lot of say into the relationship aside from the revolution of unions, uh, years and years ago, um, where it really started to make sense, like, okay, we need to really treat people better and motivate them in different ways because the ways that had been done just weren't working anymore.

Yeah, you know, I've said on this episode, whether it's in a conversation like this or whether it's a solo episode, I may have talked about it. Yeah, I was, you know, just 10 years ago, let's just say. I mean, I was definitely that person was like, oh man, I love business except for the part of the people part. I was like, I love everything about business except this leading people part. Like, this is kind of— this, this is, this is really tough, you know. And it's interesting now how I don't want to say I have it figured out by no means, but actually I love the people aspect of it. Like, doing it with a team— doing it without a team, like, you know, I like Twitter, and so there's some people in there that are like, uh, solopreneurs, right? And so they sell their whole course about like how they make $2 million as a solopreneur, and I think to myself, that would suck. That would suck. Like, not doing it without a team, while there are still absolutely challenges and there are things that come up and there are performance issues and there are cultural dynamics of things that, that, that play in. In fact, that leads me into a question I'm going to ask you in a second. I still would never want to do business— in fact, I'll say this— I would never want to do business without a team is what I want to say to finish that thought. But one of my mentors and, and coach, Dan Daniel. He was asked a question— this was a few years ago, and I was on a call, and somebody asked him, and I thought it was great. I thought it was a great question, and I'd love to get your thoughts on his answer. They said, they said— so he had started, he started like, I don't even know how many companies he's launched at this point, like maybe 15 or something. I mean, it's, it's a lot.

Oh wow.

And they said So how long is it before you begin to hire a team? Like, Daniel, you like come up with this idea and you're like, okay, like this is a problem in the marketplace, we're going to go solve it. And basically they were wanting to know like, okay, he hires this first person and then he hires the second one and then he gets a salesperson, then he gets an ops. You see what I'm saying? Like, it's a pretty logical question, right? And he said, Yeah, it's a good question. He said, um, I think it's probably within 30 minutes. And they were like, wait, what, 30 minutes? He was like, business is a team sport. I would never do business without having a team in place. Now he's got the resources to hire multiple people at one time in a startup company and start with like a team of 3 to 5, you know, and then he has to wait. But like, I don't know, I thought that that was pretty fascinating. So given your background in organizational psychology. What are your thoughts on that?

I think that makes a lot of sense, and it depends on what the business is. I mean, you know, the solopreneurs, they do have businesses sometimes that function that way. Um, you can do that. I actually had an agent that was kind of doing things on his own, and I was like, you know, you're going to do a lot better with a team behind you because there's only so much you can really do in a given day. Um, and so it, it does depend. Like if you're just like a standalone consultant, yeah, you might not need a team. You can do that on your own. You're a therapist, you might not need a team, but when you're talking about scalable businesses, you need those people behind you. And cuz you're not gonna be perfect at every little thing, there's gonna be things you need help on. Um, and having that team behind you is really gonna make the— can make the difference between success and failure.

Do you think culture or talent is more important?

I think they feed off each other. Um, so I mean, in a way, culture is what happens when you get the right people together, uh, when you have a good culture. Um, but, and you can teach to some degree skill, but it really Depends, I think, a lot on the business itself. So if we're talking about agencies, um, you can really buy with a really good culture, attract really good talent. If you don't have a good culture, you're probably not gonna attract really good talent. Um, and it also, it, it really does depend. Sometimes you can have somebody that's not super talented, but if you create this great culture around them, you can create success for them, um, if they want to. Um, so I wouldn't say it's really a this or that. I think they influence each other, kind of like the nature versus nurture theories of, you know, biology and how things go. Like, they impact each other in significant ways.

Yeah, yeah.

What do you think?

I think it's all culture.

All culture.

I think you take You're taking a true A-player, I mean a real A-player, you put them in a crappy culture, that A-player is not gonna— that, that, that, that A-player will get pulled down into the muck. I don't know, I don't know the— I don't know the analogy, but like, you know, something about if you play with pigs you're gonna get dirty, or something like that.

I, I don't know what it is.

The idea is like you're If you go play in the pigpen and there's just a toxic culture, it's like, nah, it's just not going to work. I mean, no matter how good it is. And at the same time, I think culture can, can, can raise people's expectations. I'm not diminishing talent. I'm not diminishing talent at all. But I think even if you take talent from a, I mean, I think most people are probably thinking about quality salespeople and. I wouldn't disagree that that's probably a good place to think. But even if we were talking about a software company and you hired— you went and hired the best of the best engineers, like you were somehow able to— you had the money, you had the backing to go hire a team of 20 engineers and you picked them from Google, YouTube, Apple, so on and so forth, like the best— Slack. You just pulled the best of the best and you paid them X amount, you gave them equity in the company and did all these sort of things. But the culture sucked and was terrible, I think it would crush it. It just wouldn't get off the ground.

Yeah. And I think that you can relate that again to science as well, is you can take the hardiest plant in the world and if you put it in just absolutely terrible environment, it's still not going to grow.

Yeah. And on that too, I'm a Mac guy. I'm all in on the Mac ecosystem. I'm all Mac. Well, it's easy to kind of look, think about the quality of the products themselves, and they're great. But I think that if you reverse engineer all of that, it's the culture that's there that says, no, no, no, this is how we're going to do it, right? There's a standard for how these things— there's a standard for how these things need to look and feel and operate and all of that. And To me, that's all within the culture that they, that they have. Yeah, that's what I think anyway.

So yeah, I mean, Apple is a great example for that where the brand and the community is 80% of the value, I think.

Yeah. People have heard me say the way I like to think of a culture is environment dictates performance. Environment dictates performance. Environment's the culture. It is. It is. So, you know, if you, if you go and anyway, whatever, I could give so many analogies more than we already have. All right, well, let's talk. Let's talk some more about people. So tell me about what People Advisory Service is.

Yeah, great question. So People Advisory Service is helping really small businesses or specifically agents come into the full life cycle of the employee engagement. So we narrowed that down into 3 pillars: attract, develop, and retain, which starts with getting the right people in, recruiting and onboarding, developing them in a way that they're training better and they're performing better, and then retaining them. So really making sure that you, when you have the right people, that you're making sure they're happy. Keeping them engaged. And then also, if you know, you do need to let somebody go or need to make some kinds of changes, that you have some legal background in that so that you can protect yourself and protect them. And that's where we see it. It's a little bit less of the full HR, like not an HR coordinator type position. This is really strategy on how can you get the most out of your people-related decisions.

So give me an example of— you would know this language around ideal client avatar, right? So somebody who is wanting to do something, and then also somebody who maybe is at a point where, you know, they're struggling with a certain point. Who is this really targeted for?

Great question. So this is really targeted for— we have 3 main ideal clients. One are brand new business owners that don't really know what they're doing with their team yet to help them start with good practices from the beginning. It's a lot easier to start doing well rather than trying to change something down the road. If you've been doing something for 15 years and you're like, oh, I'm set in my ways. It's going to be a lot more to change.

I agree with that. Yeah.

Our second one is people that are just like really not doing well and they need a major overhaul. So that's going to be people that are like, they cannot keep their team there, they can't get people in the door. So you go in, it's like, okay, well, what is causing these issues? And let's address those because there's something here that is the cause of this and we can start working on that. Which you've also seen for sure.

Oh yeah.

Oh yeah.

And then—

oh yeah, hold on a second, I gotta, I gotta say something to that. Actually, I just ran across this the other day, and boy, it has really stuck with me, uh, quite a bit. You'll repeat the same failures until you learn the lesson that it is trying to teach you.

Yeah. That's a great one. And I've definitely had a lot of my agents that are like, every time I meet them, it's once a quarter, I hear like, oh, I have to start a whole new team again. And I'm like, this happens every quarter. Like, how is this going to continue? Um, and so we— a lot of the people issues aside from marketing is like the number one thing that I hear, uh, is the struggle. So That's what really made this as necessary to, to attack essentially.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Yeah. And then our third clients are just the ones that are just getting really big and are struggling to really get the whole team together. So people with more than like 15 people, they're like, all right, I might have another office now. I might have all this going on. And I can't just manage, you know, meeting with my entire team one-on-one every day anymore. Like I need something a little bit more removed and a little bit more formal, but also still get really good quality feedback and things like that. And so that comes into our third major type of client that we're looking at.

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Yeah, that makes sense. I mean, the HR function gets bigger than what they can manage themselves.

Yeah, exactly.

I totally get that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And a lot of times, you know, our agents, you want to live and operate like the big companies do, but you don't have that budget. You don't have that capacity. But those functions are still necessary. Like, you still need to do HR. It's just like you need to do taxes. No business is too small to do taxes. No business is too small for HR needs. So it really comes down to how are you going to optimize that and do it the best you can. So we're looking to help along with that, just like we do our accounting, our CFO, and other things.

Yeah, yeah, I, I think that we— I don't know where I heard this from, but it's certainly not a Bradley original thought. A lot of them aren't.

You do a lot of reading.

I do a lot of reading. I do a lot of listening to podcasts. I do a lot of— yeah, for sure. Like, I just like to curate the best stuff from other people and where I can give credit where I can remember. But sometimes I take stuff in and I just forget where I learned it from. But anyway, and it was like that you— and I never thought of it this way— like your team and your customers follow these parallel paths, not just like in a micro of like, how do you onboard somebody? It's like, okay, you onboard a new client, here's what we do. We send these emails, we do this, we do this, we do this. And then before you know it, they're, quote, onboarded. Great. Okay, well, what's the first 90 days of a team member look like? Yeah, I mean, that's part of what I'm saying, but I think it's also like, how do you attract new clients? How do you attract a team? How do you then develop your clients? How do you get them to buy more stuff? Okay. Like you're ascending the client. Same thing with how do you then develop your team along the way? And then just same thing as I don't want to lose some of my best clients. Okay, so we want to retain our best clients. Same thing is I don't want to lose my best team members, right? I want to, I want to keep them, you know. So it's around, around that same model of attract, develop, and retain. Um, so yeah, I think that there's these parallel tracks, so to speak, to think about it from my client or customer, if you want to, if you use customers, client or customer perspective, along with, uh, with our team members and keeping our best people. Because man, like, there's so many businesses out there now that are— goodness gracious, gas stations are paying $15 an hour starting out. That's annualized, that's a $30,000 salary. So I mean, you know, I remember 10 years ago, 12 years ago, you could get away with a $20,000 salary and throw a comp plan on top of it and person make $50,000. I mean, if somebody is listening to this and can get away with that, hey, milk it while you can. Okay, milk it while you can, because that stuff is about— is, is gone by the wayside, you know, with inflation. And, you know, things are more expensive, but there's more money in the marketplace, period, to be able to do that, you know, too. So, um, where of the 3 have you seen personally— like, so it's a— I know there's a sequential attract, develop, retain, but what is the part of the 3 that you have seen as the— probably the biggest room for improvement, right? So that if a broad brush stroke, people focused on the most, which one would give them the biggest bang for the buck?

I see retention, um, the biggest thing, and shortly followed by, um, the recruiting onboarding part. Attracting, because a lot of people are having great workers and great employees, but they're not keeping up with the necessary pay. They're not keeping up with like taking care of their employees in a way that wants them— makes the employee want to stay, I think is the number one thing. And it's also one of the biggest thing costs that you can have, like replacing an employee can be up to 200% of their salary. If you have a really good person, it's insane. And then just hiring somebody, you're talking about easily $4,000 or $5,000 just to get somebody in the door. And if they don't show up that first day, being the second biggest issue, I hear that from my agents all the time. It's like, oh yeah, I hired somebody and the first day they just never showed up and never came in and We spent all this time and effort on this and, uh, they just disappeared. And so like, number one is when you have a good person, you need to make sure you keep them. And two, if they're choosing, a lot of times what they do is they just end up going with another agent, uh, instead, or the different jobs. Like, you could be more attractive. There's something you could be doing there on that front end that makes them be like, No, I am going to show up. That makes you really stand out. And they're just sometimes little tweaks that you can do to make that difference.

Have you— have you heard me talk about smashing real exes?

I don't think I've heard that one.

Oh, you haven't heard me? That didn't— you haven't listened to the solo of me talking about smashing real exes?

Okay. No.

So the idea behind the— like you said, 200%. Smashing Rolex is basically like that idea of that first 90 to 120 days. So if you have a $50,000 salary, right, somebody that's making 50, that's roughly by the time you pay them, you know, $4,000 a month roughly. Okay. For 3 to 3 to 4 months.

Okay.

By the time you do that plus taxes, plus onboarding cost, plus whatever all the other things are, you are absolutely up to $15,000, period.

Mm-hmm.

And the idea— this has been really helpful in my community— is that for people to think, wait a minute, would you ever go down to the jewelry store, wherever it is in your hometown, and say, I want to buy a Rolex Submariner? Okay. And it's— they're roughly $12,000 to $15,000 now. You get one and go and buy it through your business account and then 90 to 120 days later, smash it and then just keep doing it. Nobody would ever do that. Like, nobody would ever do that. And yet it's happening every day. Now, does that mean that you're going to have a miss, that you can never have a miss. That's unreasonable, right? Would you agree? Like, there's— like, there's no way you're going to have 100%. There's no way. You just can't do it. But the person or the people that you've talked to that are just like, oh my God, we turn the whole team over all the time, they are smashing a bunch of Rolexes. Okay. And I think that that has been what was helpful for me But it was helpful for our community to look at and go, holy smoke. So I actually got a call from somebody. He said, hey, man, as a Voxer, hey, just want to tell you, didn't smash a Rolex. I smashed a Timex. And I was like, awesome. What does that mean? He's like, I made a wrong hire and I let him go 3 weeks later. And he was like, you know, a few hundred bucks, not a big deal. Wasn't right fit. I was like, okay. Good for you, right? So it was like, it was this, this thing that they had to connect it to, to be like, because, you know, you throw it in payroll and it's not really noticed as much, you know, because it's part of what you're running through Gusto or ADP or something like that. And so they don't see it as like cumulatively over that period of time of like cumulatively, you just invested $15,000. People— person came in, didn't produce anything, walked out the door. You might as well just walk down the jewelry store and bought a Rolex for what you just paid that person. And I think that's been a helpful model. What are your thoughts on that?

No, I like that. Um, especially since, you know, a lot of people are thinking, um, investments in people differently. I think it's coming to really be a lot more of a realization that's like, people are investments. They're not just there to perform and everything. And I think some people, when you put it into other terms, they're thinking about— because a lot of people get into business ownership because You know, oftentimes they're like, hey, I want to like help people. But oftentimes it's like, hey, I want to make money and I want status and I want to achieve. And a Rolex really encapsulates all of those things, um, of like, that, that's a symbol of I made it, I can afford a Rolex. And for somebody to say, hey, look, you just threw that away, uh, that status symbol away, that kind of like resonates on multiple levels a little bit more.

Yeah. And, you know, some people listen to this, they, they're not into watches and that's irrelevant, but they can still follow the analogy, I think, is the more important thing, you know, for sure. And so, yeah, I mean, I, I get that people— I mean, you say this even with financials and Club Capital. I mean, you know, people talk about, well, I want to be able to give back and I want to make a difference. And yeah, you, that's— you can do that too. And you can do all of that while having a good business that's profitable, that spits out distributions for you to be able to make more money for you and your family. Like, I think far too often business owners are not willing to just call it like it is. I got into this because I wanted flexibility and I wanted to be able to make money for me and my family.

Mm-hmm.

Otherwise, if that's the case, you can go just work for a charity too, you know. But I think business gives you the, gives you the portal to be able to make more money to actually support those charities and those initiatives now with bigger donations or your time, because you have the flexibility to be able to do behind it. That's— does that make sense? That's my feeling around it, you know.

Yeah, a lot of times when your success buys you time to do what you want to do, um When I'm in my CFO calls, I'm like, we ask, and you're aware of this because we work together on this. The very first meeting is, hey, what are your 3 biggest financial goals? What are your 3 biggest personal goals? And your financial goals help you achieve your personal goals. That's why they're tied together. That's why we ask for both. And so for some people, it's, I want to be able to give my wife or my partner the opportunity to work from home. I want to be able to have these vacations. I want to be able to support others. Um, and it all comes fundamentally down to really good business practices, putting good energy out there, and always, especially as a business owner, uh, always trying to be the best you can be so that you can have others be the best they can be. And it just comes as another full cycle.

All right, so if you're a brand new, uh, business owner, maybe struggling right now, or hey, you're getting bigger in this HR function, which maybe even a few years ago, do you— you didn't even think about HR function, so to speak, is now a thing. Then reach out to Lee and the team on People Advisory. Lee, where would you point them to? They want to connect with you. They want to learn more about People Advisory because they, you know, kind of see themselves in one of those 3 buckets?

Yeah, so, um, our website is live. So if you go to club.capital, we do have our page. It's club.capital/people. Keep it really easy, um, give you some more information about what the services look like. It also has an option to book a meeting with me, um, and we essentially spend the first meeting really digging into what's going on with you and seeing if, A, A, it makes sense, uh, and B, how we can help the most. Now, uh, to another part of that, I don't think there's anybody that couldn't benefit from it. It's like any other coaching. It's like having a therapist. It's one of those things where you can always do better. The question is, is it the most important thing for you at the time? Um, sometimes frankly, there's other services you need to focus on first. But there's always room for improvement.

Oh yeah, for sure. There's so many, there's so many levels. There's so many levels to the game unless you're maybe Jeff Bezos or Elon Musk or somebody like that. There's, there's so many levels to get to. So Lee, I enjoyed the conversation, my man, and congrats on the launch. And, uh, can't wait to hear some of the— we'll have you back on. I want to hear some, uh, some tangible results, uh, from people. But, uh, I think this has been helpful to, to folks out there.

Yeah, absolutely. Thank you so much for your time, Bradley. It's a pleasure being on here. Uh, talk to you probably pretty shortly.

A big shout out to our podcast sponsors: Autopilot Recruiting, Coach P Consulting, and of course Club Capital. If you want to be able to get more A-players in the pipeline, just begin to get them in the process, but they've been vetted, they've already had certain questions asked, and you can kind of curate the fir— first part of the experience. You know, for most business owners, the hardest part is the beginning part, because once they're into the flow of your recruiting system, um, most people know how to be able to pick it up from there. But the sourcing of the candidates, being able to get them through the initial few steps, that's usually the hardest part. It's the one that most business owners don't enjoy the most. So go to autopilotrecruiting.com. For me personally and for the team, the best investments I've been able to make other than in the people themselves is in development. You know, you all know that I personally love personal development and developing of others. And so growth is a huge just part of, you know, just who I am for sure. And I know it's the same way for you. If you're listening to this podcast, you're somebody that's a growth-minded person, for you, but also for your team. There's really no better way, especially if you're an insurance agency owner, than to give your team consistency. I will say this, I heard this recently, I'm going to say this more often, is recency beats intensity. And I think the same thing is with developing of our team. The consistency or recency of the trainings and the development that they have access to twice a week with Coach P beats, you know, some one big push. You could spend, you know, 40 hours a week. It's why Apple spends, you know, I think 40, 50 minutes every day training to the people in their stores is because of the recency thing. It's not like they do one big push on the front side and, oh, you're trained and you're good. It's about doing it on a regular basis. Well, you've got a lot of hats to wear, and there's probably aspects to the business that you love and do incredibly well, but maybe not every aspect. And so reach out to Coach Pete, go to coachpeteconsulting.com, tell David that you heard about him on the Club Capital Leadership Podcast, and give him a test drive. Test drive him for you and your team, and you'll get to kind of see their style and how they do things. You get 8 free, uh, lessons. And, uh, you know, there's no doubt why David has been the fastest growing, um, insurance coach that's out there is because people are really seeing the value. And for what you get for $250 a month is in like 10— more than 10 times the value of that in an annual basis, especially if you implement. Go to coachpconsulting.com. And lastly, Club Capital. Club Capital really has the mission, uh, that's very similar to my personal mission, which is to be able to help build better business owners. They're doing that in a lot of different ways. One of the obviously core ways that they do that is being able to give business owners access to the mindset, the skill set, the tool set necessary to be able to leverage their financials, to be able to make better decisions, to be able to hire more and better people, to have the money to invest in marketing, etc. Go to club.capital, reach out to somebody on the team and see how they can help you today. club.capital. All right, everyone, till next episode, lead well.

So the big question is this: how do small business owners like us grow our leadership, develop our teams, and scale our business in a way that allows us to get our products and services out to the world yet still remain profitable? That is the question, and this podcast will give you the answers. I'm Bradley Hamner, and this is the Club Capital Leadership Podcast. Hey, before we get into today's episode, did you know that Club Capital is the largest accounting advisory firm for insurance agency owners in the country, providing monthly accounting, CFO services, and tax preparation? Check them out at club.capital.