Episode 109: Grow Your Agency with Craig Wiggins

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Craig, welcome back to the Club Capital Leadership Podcast.

Glad to be here, brother. Appreciate it.

It was great to have you. So we were just saying it's been 2 years since the last time, uh, that we chatted, and a lot obviously has changed in the world. So I'm glad we're not having a COVID conversation, but I am curious. I think you and a handful of other people really have your finger on the pulse of the insurance industry and the market as a whole. What are some of the things that you have seen both the last couple years, and then kind of pull your crystal ball out a little bit and forecast, what do you see, where do you see the industry going the next 5?

Great question, man. I think that, look, I think that all these companies companies that have distribution system with, with agents, especially captive agents. I think they're watching what, you know, GEICO and Progressive are doing and trying to figure out how to compete in that space. And the agency opportunity is— I don't think there's any danger of it going away or anything like that, but it's definitely going to change. You're going to have to be a lot more new business driven. You're going to have to really be a sales organization. This idea of just you know, sitting on your renewals and, you know, going through the motions, that's not going to last. That's not going to be the game plan. Um, and, and they're going to change the model. Like, a lot of these companies, you know, they're pulling back, um, service or basically taking service off the, off the table for their agents. They're providing that service, they feel like they can do it, you know, cheaper, maybe faster, maybe better. You know, that's— we can debate that, but I think that it's, it's going to be a a new business organization, you've got to be focused on sales. And if you're not, you're probably going to start to see a lot of pressure about what you need to, you know, how you can change that to be able to compete. So I think that there's going to be opportunity. There's always going to be opportunity for local agents because of, you know, what people want in general. Um, but is it going to accelerate maybe a little bit more towards direct and, you know, some of those consequences come back on agency? Yeah, I think that's I think that's definitely going to happen.

What do you think about the marketing side, on the lead gen side?

What are some of the dynamics just from human nature that you're seeing that's working versus not working, and kind of how do you see that progressing?

Yeah, that's another really good question too, man, because consumer behavior has changed considerably over the last several years, and technology, you know, I mean, where 10 years ago I could pick up the phone and call anybody and, you know, they may not know who I am, but they're probably gonna pick up the phone. Now, just getting a hold of— just getting someone to actually answer your call is very, very difficult. So I think consumer behavior is definitely going to change a lot in the way that we market. And frankly, what I think, like, what the agents that I work with, I spend a lot of time on, maybe going back kind of like to some old school type of method, right? Like things that insulate you. When you think about what a lot of carriers are doing when it comes to leads, lead programs, what they authorize, what they prohibit, it's really difficult for them to take away your ability to market within your community, to market with centers of influence, chamber events, you know, the community at large. I think that there's, there's got to be a large push to get better at that, to go back to some— like when I first started You know, years ago— I know I'm an old guy— but when I started, that's how you grew an agency. You know, you went out and met these people and you got the referrals and you built the relationships. And that's how I went from scratch to probably $10 million before I bought any leads. Nobody really think about buying leads back then. Now, for the last maybe 10 years, 15 years, it's all been about getting your credit card out and just calling a vendor, and now they're going to solve your lead gen problem. And I think some people may be taking a back seat to that fact that, look, we need to get out and talk to folks. We talk to mortgage officers and processors and realtors and those kind of people and generate leads without worrying about what the company is going to take away or say we can't do or prohibit. If we did more of that, the close rate's a lot higher. It is kind of back-end loaded, meaning it takes a while to see the results from that. Sometimes people are not patient enough to, to work through that, but I think that's what people really got to focus on. We got to go back a little bit to some of the basics and do a better job of that. Do a better job of getting referrals, which we call introductions. We don't really call them referrals, but doing things that lead to more business without having to spend more money. Maybe spend a little bit more of your time, but, um, I think that's, that's where lead gen is headed. Because between TCPA and, you know, consumer behavior, the law, every— everything that's going on with everything that people are trying to buy their way out I think it just causes a lot of problems. And some of those things, maybe they don't think anything about until they actually get bit by a lawsuit or by their carrier. Like, I work with a lot of agents, their carriers, they don't allow them to do hardly anything. They don't allow them to send any direct mail or buy from this person or do that. And it's like, they're so handcuffed. And there's a lot of these people are like, what do I do now? I've been doing this for 10 years now, I can't do that anymore. I think we gotta get better at the basics. We gotta kinda go back in time and do some of that old school stuff, I really do.

I think it's so true. We just interviewed, um, a guy named Atul Manocha maybe 2 or 3 episodes ago, and he said that exact same thing. And he wasn't even talking about in, in specifically with insurance. He was talking about even in big business where he felt like, for instance, uh, the mailbox has been emptied because everybody has gone to email and digital marketing. And he said, hey, I'm not saying to vacate the digital marketing. Like, you've got to be on there, you've got to be online, you got to have an online presence, and all of those things absolutely matter. But man, the mailbox is vacated and people are still going to the mail. I go to the mailbox, or my family goes to mailbox every day. And so I think that's so true for him to say that. And then for you to be able to say it and say, what are the traditional forms, mailbox and going and actually doing the things that maybe, uh, have some sweat equity and time as opposed to just dialing up a lead company and trying to turn on 6 leads a day and thinking that that's just going to be the way to scale your business.

Yeah, I agree with him. It's so funny, man, because if you're old enough to remember, you know, when the internet first came out and, you know, you got mail, you know, and you like get all excited, you got an email. And now it's like the other way around. Like you go to the point someone actually took the time to hand address— who is this? Who sent me this letter or this card or whatever? And your inbox is just full of junk, you know. So it's like we've gone full circle with that. And I I think you're right. I think now direct mail for us and my agency was the number one lead source the last probably 4 or 5 years because it gets people to call us, right? I'm not having to reach them or chase them or worry about being transferred. Why am I being transferred? They're actually picking up the phone and calling us. So that's been huge. But the referral side, the networking, centers of influence, that to me, the people that are really good at that, they're they're gonna make bank, they're gonna do really, really well. 'Cause it, again, it insulates them. You gotta constantly think about, you know, look, watch what carriers do, don't watch what they say, right? And look at everything they're doing, it's all about direct, it's all about, you know, getting those customers, prospects to go to their website, to call their 800 number, to use their call centers. Maybe not so much about the agent, you know? And I think it's just, that's natural because that's where the market's growing, that's what those, The companies that are gaining market share are the ones doing that. So they're getting pressure to conform to that model. So I get it. I understand why they're doing that. You would do the same thing. What we need to do is understand, okay, if they're gonna do that, then where can we go? What can we do that insulates us from being caught up in all that where we don't get caught flat-footed? I think it's more of that home-based stuff of what you do in your community.

[Speaker] You know, before we hit record, you and I were having a good conversation about what are the ways to reduce churn? And we were talking about in a different context. So it's one thing to know what does it cost you to acquire a customer on the front side. But when you're saying insulate, I think it's such a good analogy to say, well, great, you can, you can acquire the customer. But are you actually keeping the customer? And all those methods that you just mentioned, introductions, centers of influence, etc., it's stickier customers, stickier business.

100%, man. I mean, look, you know, people in general, They're not as loyal as they used to be, right? Whether it's an employee— when people don't have careers anymore, they're like free agents. They just bounce around to the next best opportunity. Well, clients and insurance agencies, they— a lot of the new— that's kind of how they are. They're constantly shopping. It's easier to get those quotes. It's easier to get that data. They see a better deal and they bolt, you know, where years ago they would stick and stick and stick. So, you know, I think the way you acquire people, that's going to say a lot about your retention. If you're constantly just in that pond over there that's got these shoppers that are constantly shopping all the time, then that's the kind of agency you're going to have. But if you're over here in this pond where the people are being referred to you, coming to you because of the, the quality, you know, the introduction is very different, you know, they're not going to leave as fast, you know. And we've seen that for years in our organization where people are a lot more sticky. So when they have a bad claim experience, they get a rate increase or something bad happens to the bill, whatever, they just don't bolt. Where I think a lot of the, you know, the direct model consumers, what we call them, you know, they will bolt. They have, they have no loyalty. And they can't— if they, if they came to you on price, and they're going to leave you on price, you know. So you really have to think about that as you're, as you're spending money on your marketing and your efforts to generate leads.

I want to pivot to team in just a second. But before I do that, I'm curious, I wasn't going to ask you this question, but it just kind of brought up— is there anything you're seeing in terms of the actual sales process itself. So once, uh, whether it's a lead that comes in, a referral, center of influence, introduction, et cetera, is there anything that you've seen that is working a little bit better, the changes that you've made in the sales process itself once a representative is actually speaking to someone?

Yeah, I think, you know, for years it's been all about price. It's all about let's give them every discount. Let's quote and quote and quote and quote, and hopefully we can save somebody. You know, $8 a month on their car insurance. And even to this day, I think a lot of people do that. So whether companies advertise is what they market, they're doing that because that's, that's the call to action that actually gets customers to respond, right? I think that's why they're doing that. But I think when you're— if you're a captive agent, you know, watching or listening to this, you know, if you have one price, trying to live or die on price when you have no control over that doesn't make a lot of sense because there's always going to be somebody out there that's lower.

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So I think you focus on the coverage, the relationship, the advice, the recommendations, you know, and really try to put that person in a position where they understand, look, what you have right now is not what you need. And create a sense of urgency about fixing this. To me, that's, that's how you succeed in this, in this industry, in this business. Because without it, you know, we're not low-cost providers, right? We don't have the cheapest— you can always find someone that's less. So trying to live by that strategy doesn't make a lot of sense. And frankly, that's what runs producers off, because they get so frustrated because that's all they're doing all day long is quoting, quoting, quoting. I can't beat anybody. They're having very little success. And then they leave. But if you can teach people, look, let's just do the right thing for these people. Let's make sure they have what they need and understand that everybody is not going to be our customer. Some people, they, they need to go someplace else. They need to go to the General or to some other, you know, direct provider. That's fine. Let's focus on the ones that do value the local relationship, that do want the advice, that will listen to your recommendations. Let's work in with those folks and we'll have a much higher close rate, we'll have a better retention rate, we'll get more referrals, they'll buy other products. That just makes so much more sense. So to try to like, you know, sell state minimums or quote what they have or just really beat everything down and focus on the price, that's just a really— that's a losing strategy in my opinion.

It's so good too because it's a good segue into talking about team, because ultimately them doing it that way makes them feel a lot better about their profession and what they're doing on a day-to-day basis. As opposed to just churn and burn throughout, quotes throughout the day, as an example.

That's so true, you know, and sometimes, like when working with an owner and their team may be struggling, one of the first places you should start is make sure your team understands how important they are and that what they do really does matter. That they're not just slinging policies and making commissions, they're changing somebody's life. And the conversations that they have or don't have, the questions they ask or don't ask, One day, the day's gonna come, and that's gonna make a difference for somebody. And I always, I say this, I'm like, look, you're— if you're in this business, you're the number 2 professional in anybody's life. The doctor gets number 1 because if you're not healthy, nothing else really matters. But we're number 2 because if we don't do our job correctly, there's nothing that a CPA or a dentist or any other professional is going to be able to do to solve that person's problem. Attorneys, I don't care. We need to do our job correctly. So if you have this culture in your agency, well guys, we're going to do the right thing. We're going to, we're going to make sure people leave here and have what they need. So when that time comes, you know, they may, it may be a tough situation for them. It may be difficult, but we, that they know we have their back financially. You know, you can sleep good at night and know when you're doing the right thing for people and not just trying to, you know, make a sale. And I think if a leader, if an owner leads his organization that way, you know, it, it just pays dividends. We've done that for years here. Now, and look, when I first started, I didn't, I didn't operate like that. We operated just sell as much as you can, don't worry about the coverages, grow as fast you can grow, let's just make a bunch of money. But then, you know, and there was several things that happened to me through the years, but once I started to understand, look, let's just take care of these people like they were family. Let's do the right thing for them, just like you would your own, you know, mom or dad. The end result is a much better relationship. You sell more. You end up converting people over that you never would have converted before. You know, our best producers, a lot of the business they write, they're substantially higher than what the customer's paying right now, but they're getting it because they're differentiating themselves from the competition. They're doing that with with coverage, with advice, with recommendations. Not, you know, let's just try— and look, people listen to this, they've heard, they know this. There's times where you save somebody money and they still won't change, right?

There's still no sense of urgency.

They're like, oh well, that's not enough. So, so what do you do then? So that's— you beat your head against the wall trying to reach people. You finally reach somebody, you finally quote them, you are less, and they won't change. So we have to create that sense of urgency that's all around what is right for them. What, what really is the right thing to do here? And that's to make sure they have a bad accident, something really goes wrong, that they're not going to be in financial chaos the rest of their life. And I think if people adopt that strategy and implement that into their sales process, they'll write way more business. Business will grow faster. It'll be a lot more, a lot more profitable. Um, at the end of the day, everybody sleep a lot better.

You know, it's been said business is hard and gets harder. The bigger you want to get, the, the bigger then the biggest, most important asset we have in our businesses, and it's our team. So obviously the last couple years it has escalated immensely in terms of finding, attracting, developing, retaining really, really good people. I know that, uh, of all the business agency owners that you, that you guys work with and coach, I know that you've been getting this question a lot. What are you seeing out there in terms of, you know, both attracting and then being able to retain really, really good people?

Yeah, that's— look, it's the number one issue. You know, sometimes people think it's rates, but it's hiring, it's staffing. And here, here's like the reality is we're fishing a lot of times in the wrong ponds. We, we are looking for high-quality employees in places where they are looking for a job. So think about that for a second. In this, in this environment, if you don't have a job today, you know, there's probably some sort of— there's a problem, right? So I would encourage people to look where people are already working, you know, utilize social media, utilize Facebook, utilize your ability to reach your audience and talk to people that may already have a job, but maybe they don't want to work weekends, maybe they don't want to work nights. Maybe they're not happy with the culture of their office or their environment, and try to recruit there instead of just placing ads and going to these websites where they have these resumes and expecting people in there to turn out to be great. It's kind of like if you have standard and non-standard business, it's hard to write standard business when you're talking to a bunch of people that don't have, you know, any insurance and have a bunch of tickets and accidents. It's, it's kind of a crazy strategy, and that's exactly What a lot of owners are doing, they're over there in the wrong place where those candidates, you know, they wear their flip-flops to the interview and they're chewing gum and you're like, why can't I hire anybody good? Well, let's get out and about in our community and talk to people that you see every day that are in environments that were doing a great job and they're working nights and they're working weekends and you have a much better overall opportunity than what they have now and recruit some of those people. Don't be afraid to do that. My operations manager, been here for 15 years, we found him at a photography studio. We were in there getting headshots made of all our team members years ago. And he's over there with a family, he's got a crying baby and hanging on their, you know, their pictures and upselling them. And I just went over and approached him, you know, and now 15 years later, he's our operations manager. Some of our producers, our first Century Club producer was a cashier at a tanning salon. You know, one of our other employees just ran into her and thought, hey, she, you know, she was very personal, might be a great fit. Bring her over, she writes over 100 policies her very first month because she just did what we told her to do, you know. So I think that's probably the root of the problem in terms of where we look. And then the second part, when you think about accountability and truly getting the most out of people, you really have to show them that you care. You have to show them that you're interested in them accomplishing their goals, because I don't care how driven or invested or how quality they are. They care much more about their self than they do you or your agency. And if you can come across and say things like, look, what's your financial why? What do you want to accomplish with your money? What can I do to help you get there? And you come up with a plan to make that happen and then hold them accountable to that plan as an accountability partner, not necessarily a boss. You will get people that will do a lot more because now they say, hey, this I'm trying to get out of my apartment and buy a house, and this guy's helping me do that. You know, that, that makes a lot more sense to those people than you just coming in there banging your fist on the table talking about where you are as an agency, or why you're not making bonus, or why you're in trouble over here at the company. Because frankly, they don't really care about those things. What they care about— what's important to them. So once you find that out, when you find out what drives them, you need to come up with a plan, a career plan, an activity plan. It says, hey, look, if you do these things, I can help you get there. And when they know you're authentic and you're genuine about that, you will find people that will reach your full potential much, much faster than going in there and just focusing on yourself.

That's so true. You know, it's, it's such a huge difference between finding people who need a job and people who want a career. Everybody listening to this wants people to be able to come into their organization and feel like that they're developing in their career. And even if that means working part-time, it doesn't have to be like— they can still feel like that they're a career person working 10 to 20 hours a week. And that's becoming even more common. In fact, I want to get you to touch on that about fractional workers, people who are both not just remote. I mean, that's part of it too, but also it's more and more people are wanting to to have more balance in their life, I guess, but working instead of working 40 hours, they're working more 15, 20, 25 hours a week. What are your thoughts around remote and also just part-time?

Well, number one, you better be open to remote because people have options, right? And so when they're, they're trying to decide whether to come work for your agency or not, they already have these hoops to jump through with licensing and everything else. Yeah, if you don't have remote as an option and they have other companies or other opportunities that do have remote as an option, you're gonna— it's like not having health insurance. You better be in the game with the things that people want or you're gonna lose out on some really good candidates. So I think remote is, is huge. We have several remote agents, they're all across the country. You hold them accountable the very same way you hold the people that are in the office. It is different and we've done a ton of content on our platform and a lot of training around that. With people that have done a really good job with it, but you better be open to it. And then when it comes to the part-time work, I'm not a huge fan of part-time because they seem to kind of— they go come and go a lot more. But I think an area of opportunity that agencies have where they can really change and help scale is to hire a sales assistant, where you have someone that comes in and works with your producers to take the admin work off their plate so that they can do the higher level work of actually acquiring customers. Because when you think about, you know, what you're paying your producers, you know, if you get someone who's really good, they might— they may be making $20, $30, $40 an hour. Why in the world would you have someone that has that skill set and that ability level— why would you have them doing $10 or $12 an hour work? Why wouldn't you hire somebody for $10 or $12 an hour to come in and free those people up. And you can use the sales assistant as an incentive. Say, look, if you get to this level of production, I'll get you an assistant. Everybody wants an assistant. They love having the assistants, but it also makes them a lot more productive. So we went to that model several years ago. That also creates a bench of producers. So maybe they come in, they don't have a license, they're interested in the business, they kinda wanna see what it's about. They come in, they start doing this work, they see what the agents are doing, they see what the people are doing they're supporting, and all of a sudden now they have an interest in doing the same thing. And, you know, off they go. So it can, it can provide you a place to recruit from within without necessarily having to hire somebody without a license and just take a chance on being a good producer. Let's bring them and put them in this spot, see what they can do, and, um, and then maybe we can, we can promote them from there. I love that.

That's good stuff. That's gold right there. Both, both of those tips, I really like them. You mentioned about your operation. So I think we might have mentioned this a couple of years ago, but I think it's worth revisiting because it's come up actually in conversations that I've had with some other business owners the last couple of weeks, and it's developing a second in command. A 2IC is sometimes what people refer to it. Traction, EOS, they call it visionary and integrator. I mean, there's different terminologies. I think everybody gets the point. What are your thoughts around that? And, uh, if I'm, if I'm wanting— I'm, I'm to a point in my business and I'm kind of ready to scale and I want to kind of offload some things, and maybe I already have an EA— so we're not talking about an executive assistant, we're not talking about an admin assistant, we're talking about actually developing a second in command— what are your thoughts around that?

Yeah, look, if you're trying to scale If you're trying to grow your business and have quality of life, the integrator is kind of what we call them here, refer to them. And there's a great book out there called Rocket Fuel by Gino Wickman.

Yep.

You know, that takes you through that. It's not necessarily insurance related, but just takes you through the whole idea that there's probably a visionary and there's probably an integrator in just about any agency. Most of the time the owner is the visionary. You need somebody that can come in and help you with these other things to take things off your plate. And I highly recommend anyone that's trying to scale, anybody that's trying to, you know, get to that next level. There you go, right there. That's the book. Um, you need to do that. You need to look at it that way. And when I look back on my career, it was the times in which I was able to bring people in to delegate work where everything escalated. In the beginning, it was when I was just a salesperson, right, as an agent, whatever. And now I'm delegating work to other people to help with my service. And then I delegate to these people to help me with sales. And then when I start delegating people that actually hire and train and hold people accountable and do higher-level work that I was doing, you know, years ago, that's when things really blew up. So when you have somebody that can come in and help you with those things, it not only helps you scale, it gives you a much better quality of life because it's not all on you. You're able to assign those responsibilities to them. Now, the problem that a lot— I think a lot of people have is like, when do I do that? How do I— how do I afford this kind of person? Frankly, if you have less than $5 million in premium, you don't need somebody like that right now. And frankly, you can't afford them. You don't, you don't have the cash flow to get somebody quality enough to help you with that. So your goal really ought to be, hey, look, I need to get to $5, $6 million in premium so then I can start to develop people from within. I wouldn't go hire somebody from outside. Get a producer, people that the other people on the, on the team can respect, and have them start leading some meetings. Have them put, put them in a position of authority and just see how people respond. Is there chemistry? You know, can they influence those people? And if not, that may not be the best choice. And just because someone's a great salesperson, that doesn't mean they're going to be a great choice either.

That's very true.

People that are going to develop other people, that are going to be able to hold them accountable, they're going to coach them, give them constructive criticism, you know, and those people take it well. And that's not always easy to find, but As you start to approach that $5, $6 million mark, that's really what you should be looking for is like bringing producers in, explaining this long-term opportunity, giving them, you know, the full opportunity to make that happen, but have them produce first. Let them get the credibility. If you go out, like I hired some people early on that were great in other industries. They come in, they try to use their skillset with people that are asking them some very basic questions about how to process things or how do I do this or what, where do I go to find that? And they don't know. Well, they have no credibility. They have— it's very difficult to, to bring anybody along when you can't answer basic things. So if you have a producer that understands that process and goes through all the, all those things, and the rest of the team understands, hey, you know, they're pretty good, they don't have to be the best, you know, they can, they can be somewhere in the middle, that's fine. But the first step is to have them leave, have them lead a meeting, come up with a topic you feel like, you know, they're comfortable with. And have them lead a meeting. They lead a meeting on something where the team has to respond, and you watch your team. And if they're all, they all got their arms folded and they're looking at the floor and nobody's paying any attention, you probably have the wrong person. They're not, it's going to be very difficult for them to be successful. But if that team is relating to them, they're listening, they're interacting, asking questions, and it's going, what? Okay, now we got someone we probably can work with. And I think, you know, the more you can do to put them in a position authority, and the more you can delegate and let them kind of fail forward, make some mistakes, that's how you can really develop somebody who's going to be instrumental in your growth. And again, help you be able to get out, do other things, work on, work on bigger issues within the agency, or maybe work on a different business altogether and give you that quality of life. So I am a huge proponent for that, as long as it's done at the right time. Don't try to do it at $2 or $3 million because you don't have the money to do it. And frankly, you don't need it. You need to be doing that. Sometimes people love to become the— they want to be the big agency owner well before they really should. You need to continue to produce and do that day-to-day work to get to the point where now you can go out and, you know, afford those kind of people and grow.

And that's so true.

You know, you can do, you can do the right things at the wrong time. You can do the right things at the wrong time. What, what, what you were doing at $40 million is not necessarily the thing somebody needs to be doing at 4. Okay, you're better off to ask Craig, hey, what did you do to go from 4 to 6, than it is about like, well, what is Craig doing at 40? Well, he's got scale and economies of scale and other things that— yeah, there's principles there for sure. But then there's some things like you don't need to be doing this. And I think even given the incentive to a business owner who's listening to this to say, okay, I got it in my head, I'm going to get to 5. When I get to 5, then I want to be able to go faster, speed, and I'm going to be able to do that by developing somebody in the organization. I think that's so good. Where do you think if somebody is wanting to— so they're at that point, they think that they have someone in their organization that is a really, really good producer. I just have to ask, there are some dynamics about they're a team player, they're part of the team, and now all of a sudden they're kind of elevated. Do you have any advice for that transition right there? Because that could have some second-order consequences to where I was like, oh, I thought this was going to work out. Maybe they have it, but it just doesn't go the way that they plan.

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Yep, I think that's a mistake that a lot of people make, and here's the mistake. This is what usually happens. So-and-so is crushing on production, so that means that so-and-so is going to be able to teach other people how to do it. And that is not the case. That is actually pretty rare. So sometimes what happens is you see someone that you think is going to have that skill set, so you promote them. You go get the business cards created, you promote them, you give them this raise, you put them in this position, and then it falls flat. So do what I said a minute ago. Instead of going down that road where you formally make that change Put them in a position to see how others respond, how others react to them. Have them lead a meeting, have them hire somebody, have them interview somebody, have them actually coach and train a new employee that comes in. Once you feel like, you know what, they've got the skill set to do this, then you can make that change. And one other mistake I think people make is they try to keep that person in production. They try to have them say, hey, you know what, you got to keep writing all that business you're writing before, but now I need you to do all this other work too. That is not going to work out very well a lot of the time, and for several reasons. First of all, the workload is significant on that person.

Yes.

Secondly, it creates some animosity amongst your group, and people may not say anything about it, but in the back of their mind, they're thinking that person that got that promotion is now getting the good leads, they're getting the referrals, they're getting the favors, they're getting all—

even if they're not, even if they're not.

And, and now we have this problem, we have this, this clash So you don't want to do that. You want to bring them on the right way and pick your time, pick your moment when you can make that happen, and have them fail forward, you know, have them make some of these mistakes as you go forward in that journey. And then the rest of the team is, you know, is going to respect them. The other thing that you can do that I think is really important when you do make that move, because a lot of times what happens is this: they give them a bump and raise and they change their commission schedule or their comp schedule. Hey, I'm going to pay you a percentage of premium we write every month. We'll pay you on our overall production. And what I always recommend people do is you create a flex bonus for somebody in that position. So if I'm going to bring you on and I'm going to say, okay, Bradley, you're now going to be, you know, you're going to be the operations manager, my sales manager, my right-hand person, whatever it may be, I'm going to create a program where you have salary and now your bonus is split up into two segments. One is going to be based off production because that's always going to be important, but the other half, the other half of that bonus monthly is going to be a flex bonus that's going to be dependent on what I think is important in that given moment in time. What I mean by that is you may have a certain goal that you're behind on, like life insurance, growth, um, your bundling percentage. Maybe you have a new hire that isn't quite up to speed yet. Maybe you need to make a new hire. You can have all these different things that happen as the year goes on. Well, if they're not aligned with you and the comp plan is just about production, you come in the office every day and you're concerned about these things happening. This is your right-hand person and they're not really worried about it because it's not part of their comp plan. And they don't do it, or they don't do enough of it, and now all of a sudden you guys are clashing. So if you create a flex bonus that says, okay, every month I'm not changing your comp plan, I'm just going to create different opportunities each month based off what we need at that moment in time, now you both get aligned, you're on the same page, you're working towards the same goals, and things start to happen. Because look, everybody works a comp plan. You can think about your own comp plan. Your company may have some goals that they would love to hit, but they're not important to you because it's not part of your comp plan. Well, if you put somebody in this position and they don't have goals that are related to their comp, they're not going to be that worried about it. They might be in the kind of like the overall broad picture, but they're not going to be as laser-focused. Like, if you got a new employee that just started last month and they're struggling and they're barely getting by, and your comp plan for your, for your integrator is on premium, As long as the rest of the office is doing what they need to do, they don't really care. You're the one paying that salary to that person that's really struggling. You're trying to get them up to speed. So change it up. Have them say, you know what, yes, let's be concerned about the premium, but also once you get this person rolling and this month if they do X, you're going to get this amount of bonus money. When you do that and you align everybody, especially you and that integrator, it just makes a world of difference. And I speak from experience because I made that mistake with the first first 2 or 3 that I hired. And it was so frustrating to me because I'm trusting this person, I'm trying to work with this person. And ultimately, they didn't care as much as I did. They're never going to care as much as you, but the more you can do to align them with what you're trying to accomplish, the better off you're going to be.

That is phenomenal. I love that idea. I think that's so great. And even calling it a flex gives you the leeway. And it could— you could go 2 or 3 months in a row and say, hey, it's the same thing. But the reality is you're right. If you're talking about an operations, an integrator person that is your right-hand person, the priorities of the business do change. They do change throughout, throughout the year and what you're trying to accomplish. I do have to ask one clarifying question on that though.

What do you see as the flex bonus, like a percentage?

We'll make $1,000, just put it at $1,000 is a good amount. What do you see the percentage of that being based on production versus maybe the priority of that month? What do you see that as?

I would probably do it at 50/50 to begin with. And then as you go the year, if you feel like— because what happens is if you're really good, you're going to have like this machine that's going to get rid— the premium is going to be there. And what happens a lot of times, just calling it like it is, these people kind of ride the coattails of what's happening. And yes, they've done the work, maybe they've hired the people, they've trained them, they've developed them, but now that— now they're like benefiting off of all that work that's been done, and they're really not doing a lot of extra work to make that happen. So then you may have to adjust that percentage as you go down the road a little further and say, hey, you know what, this month I really need you to be focused on X. So we're gonna, we're gonna change the percentage up. Now I'm not, I'm not a big fan of changing comp, um, but that's why I like to call it a flex bonus because I'm telling them in the very beginning, look, this is going to change. It's going to change every month based off what I think is important. The percentages might change, but, but it's important to me that you and I are aligned. And we're thinking the same way. So I would start at 50/50 and then just see where it goes from there.

I think that's great. All right, last question I want to ask you. Um, you mentioned a minute ago, and I was just in, in my mind I had this thought around all the different hats that we have to wear— your CEO, COO, CFO, CSO, Chief Sales Officer— especially when you're starting out like every— all of us did. What are some of the— and so what happens is you develop skill sets. And one of them is, you're probably the best producer in the office, especially early. The problem with that is, is that that strength that you walked into the business to start can become a really debilitating weakness in some cases, because now you've really got to be able to delegate that. And we intuitively know it, but it's hard to do it. And then you, you get really good at another skill set, and you got to delegate it out. Does this make sense? So if you're thinking about, uh, an agent that is scaling to that 4, 5, 6, they're in that path and they're wanting to get to 8, 9, 10 over the next few years, how do you see the order of delegation of those hats in order for them to do it? Because it goes back to our discussion around doing the right thing at the right time. Okay, so somebody's at 20 trying to go to 30 is, is, is looking at and developing themselves in a different way than somebody who's going from 3 to 6, as an example.

Yeah, look, I totally agree with that. And I think that specialization is how you scale and how you get there. And the way that I've always looked at it is, when I'm paying somebody— and it could be myself— when I'm paying somebody a certain pay rate that I could then go hire somebody else to do at a lower pay rate, to do some of that work they're doing now and have enough of it to create another position, then why wouldn't I do that? Why would I keep paying this person that has the, the skill, the ability to perform at $30 an hour? Why would I have them doing a bunch of $10 and $12 and $15 an hour work when I could just go hire somebody else to do that? So, and that could also be for yourself too. So like your hourly rate, yeah, maybe you might— maybe you are the best salesperson in there. Okay, but the value you bring to that agency could be on a much higher level when it comes to hiring and training and networking, COIs, all these other things that you need to be doing as a business owner, and you're in there selling all that. Well, there are times when you have to do that, okay? And I'm not trying to talk out of both sides of my mouth, but as you're growing, a mistake that people make when they're, you know, $1, $2, $3, all the way to maybe even $5 or $6 million, is they try to come out of sales too early. Because they don't like it. They don't— they think they're above that, whatever. I was the number one producer in my office probably until I was around $8 million in premium because I wanted the growth. And secondly, I wanted to prove to everybody else what was possible. Okay. But once it got to the point where it's like, you know what, my value— I can get a better, a better rate of return on my time by hiring, by training, by doing other work that's when I started looking at, you know, bringing other people and delegating more and more of that out. So it's kind of a— it's probably more of an art than a science because everybody's going to be different. Everybody's position is going to be different. What I would say to you, if you're not quite the 5 yet, don't even think about doing that now. You need, you need to be in there producing. You need to be showing everybody else what's possible and what's achievable. And they're looking for you. Your team looks at you as a leader and you need to lead by example. And if you're listening to this and you're one of these, these owners that comes in at 10 o'clock every day and leaves at 4 o'clock in the afternoon, maybe doesn't work at all on Fridays, and you're trying to get your team to do more and do better and be the best they can be, you know, it's probably not going to happen. They're looking and watching what you're doing and you own the freaking business and you're the one that's, that's taking this approach. What are the odds of them actually reaching their full potential when you're doing that? You need to be the first one there. You'd be the last one to leave. And yeah, I know it's your business. I get it. You should be able to come and go. I get all that. You should better do what you want to do. But there's consequences to that, especially early on. Now, as you develop more leadership, as you develop an integrator and people that can come in and help you with those kind of things, and you can assign a lot of that ability and responsibility to them, then great. That's when you can start to take a lot more off. But if you've got a team of people there that need a leader and their leader is out playing golf every Friday and shows up when he wants to in the mornings and is leaving every, every day early, you know, that's not going to work out very well for the vast majority of agencies. You need to lead by example. So you got to make some sacrifices in those, those first few years to get over that hump. And I think that's probably why a lot of people never do it. They're not willing to do what needs to be done. They say they are But when you actually get down to it, um, the things they know need to be done, the things that they don't feel like doing, they don't get done. And then the rest of the team responds to that, and that determines the culture of that agency. And then they kind of just get stuck in mediocrity, you know, for a long, long time.

So true. Mentor of mine, he scaled a bit. His first business, it took him 6 years to get to 8 figures. His second business, it took him 3. His third business, it took him 6 months. And, you know, question is, well, how—

what do you do?

Like, you figured something out if you're scaling a business to 8 figures in 6 months. He said, you know what it is? We figured out how to do the boring work better than everybody else. We just do the boring work. We do the boring work that nobody else wants to do. That's what made me think about that whenever you were saying that.

He—

they're just willing to do the work. They know what works and they stick with it. How about that? That's a— that's profound. Well, I love talking with you.

The ones at the top and ones at the bottom, that's exactly what it is. You know, it's the ones that do the things that other people are not willing to do because they don't feel like it or they don't want to. Those are the ones that are successful. And it's so true in our business. I can look at all the ones we work with that are very, very at the very top, highly successful. That's it, man. It's not that complicated.

So true. Craig, uh, tell people where they can reach you, where they can out about CWC and all the things you guys got going on?

Yeah, you can go to our website, CraigWigginsCoaching.com. You can email me, Craig, at CraigWigginsCoaching.com anytime. We'd love to help you. We'd love to work with you. We work with agents and staff all across the country and are really passionate about trying to help people succeed and get over that hump and scale. And, and we always implement and talk about common sense, practical approaches approaches to helping you with your business that don't really require you to spend any more money than what you're spending right now. So yeah, reach out anytime. We'd love to help you, love to work with you.

All right, we're not going to go 2 years next time before we talk again.

Absolutely not.