Episode 111: Sell or Die with Jeffrey Gitomer

So the big question is this: how do small business owners like us grow our leadership, develop our teams, and scale our business in a way that allows us to get our products and services out to the world yet still remain profitable?

That is the question, and this podcast will give you the answers. I'm Bradley Hamner, and this is the Club Capital Leadership Podcast.

Hey, before we get into today's episode, did you know that Club Capital is the largest accounting and advisory firm for insurance agency owners in the country, providing monthly accounting, CFO services, and tax preparation. Check them out at club.capital.

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Jeffrey Gitomer, welcome to the Club Capital Leadership Podcast.

Thank you very kindly. It is a pleasure to be here, Bradley. Um, I'm hopeful that I can deliver a message that will give people the opportunity to take my information out into the street and turn it into money.

That's absolutely— well, I have been a big fan of your podcast. And I have to tell you, when I first got out of college, my very first job, I was selling Yellow Page ads. And somebody recommended me your book, Little Red Book of Selling. And I remember sitting— true story— I remember sitting in a physician's office, and I was reading that book. And I, and I ended up devouring it within like, I think, a day or so. And it really did help me early on in my sales career. So it's an honor to have you on. So I really want to ask you, we always start with background and origin stories. I know a lot of people are going to be familiar with you, but if they're not, why don't you just give a little bit of your background, uh, and origin story about how you got to where you are today, and then we'll get into it.

Um, I got where I am today because I worked my ass off and because my parents were smart. Um, they gave me brains and then I have to decide how I'm going to use them. Yes, but some people are smart but they, they don't do good things. Yeah, ask anyone in politics. But I think that, that the challenge that your audience has right now is how can they use what I know to go out and make a sale. Now you don't really care that I cut my teeth selling in Philadelphia and New York City But you don't want to know the details. But if it wasn't for that, I couldn't be doing this. I mean, literally, uh, The Little Red Book of Selling could not have been written without cold calling in New York City for a number of years and making millions of dollars worth of sales. So I would challenge anybody who is listening to pay close attention to the detail because that will help you win. And I'm sitting at my sofa here in, in, uh, Wild Dunes, South Carolina, and I'm, I'm trying to profess the fact that you don't have to be aggressive to make a sale. And I would also challenge you that I know a number of your audience members are in the insurance business. Insurance is the toughest sale to make. In my opinion. Um, everybody knows somebody else who's doing it. You need to establish trust to get it. It's a— no one, no one actually— everyone needs it, but nobody wants it.

Yeah.

And so the challenge that you have is how can you make that trust communication so that somebody feels good enough about you to buy? I think a lot of it has to do with the companies that you represent. So if you have a good brand and good television branding and solid social proof, you have a shot at it. But then it all boils down to the person, because if I don't like you, if I don't believe you, if I don't have confidence in you, I'm never going to trust you. And this— the insurance sale is based on trust, like all sales. They're based on I trust you. And I think that there's a huge disconnect in the sales training process that doesn't go into the emotional aspect of being able to transfer a message. I had an insurance salesman in New Jersey for New York Life named Les Treband. Les Treband has passed away, but we were friends for a long, long time, and he'd been trying to get me to buy insurance for a long, long time. And I kept saying no for a long, long time because I was young and what do I need? But we both had the same banker. Uh, the guy's name was Frank Knox, and Frank Knox was kind of overweight, not obese, but, you know, hefty, thick, and, uh One day, Les was knocking on my door and, uh, he said, can I come in? I go, sure. He walks in and he said, Frank Knox died last night. He had just purchased an additional $100,000 policy that will pay off his house. And his family is now safe because of the insurance that he had. Yeah, signed here. And I did. He became a believer in his own product. It wasn't the fact that he was trying to convey a story to me, he was conveying his belief to me.

Yes.

And it deepened by the fact that he saw what he sold worked.

Yes, that is so true.

Keep in mind now, this was in the late '60s, so $100,000 then is probably half a million dollars now.

Sure.

Yeah, just keep the perspective there.

Sure.

Um, but I think more important than that is the fact that every one of us has a belief system. And if you don't believe deeply in what it is that you're selling, then my advice would be get the hell out of there. Yeah, as fast as you possibly can. Um, you got to believe you work for the greatest company in the world. You got to believe you offer the greatest products and services in the world. You got to believe you're the greatest person in the world. And you got to believe you can differentiate yourself from your competition, not compare yourself to them. Because when you compare, it's price. When you differentiate, it's value.

I got a question.

I'm going to give you the fifth thing and then we can go to another question. You got to believe that the customer is better off having purchased from you. And you can't believe it in your head, you have to believe it in your heart. Head is attached to price. Heart is attached to wallet. And if you jerk on the heartstring, the wallet comes popping right out of that back pocket. And people don't quite understand that. So I simply ask, how many of you have young children?

Yeah, I do.

Raise their hand. What's their closing ratio?

Almost 100%.

Yeah, exactly. So I would challenge you, take your kid on a sales call, it'll be a hell of a lot easier to make the sale.

That's so true. That is so true. And they, and they are ruthlessly persistent.

They're willing to take corporal punishment in the aisle of a grocery store to get a candy bar.

It's so true. It's painful. So I have a question around what about for our sales teams, we bring someone on who's just graduated from college, and they're 24, they come into the to the business. And so they don't have the experience, they don't have the, the belief system yet. So how do we as sales managers, business owners, how do we install that belief system into the people who just came in as new salespeople for us?

I have an unorthodox way, but I promise you it will work 100% of the time. Go to people who are already your customers. Sit down with your new guy and you and ask your customer why they purchased. Get 10 of those, put it on video, tell the kid to study it, and when he goes out to a prospective customer All he has to do is say, would you like to know why the last 10 people bought from us?

Oh, that's good, that's good, I like it.

And that way there's no question. The guy doesn't have to say, well, I'm kind of new and I don't really know shit, but, you know, please listen to me and buy because I'm desperate.

Yeah.

Oh, would you like to know why the last 10 people bought? Uh, Actually, I would like to know that. I love it.

I think it's great. I love the unorthodox approach. As a matter of fact, I just— I don't know if you want to touch on this and kind of expand upon this a little bit, but I know you're going to be giving a talk here pretty soon. I think you're calling it Do the Opposite. Do the Opposite, right? Yeah. And you have the— you have this kind of contrarian thought about things. Can you just speak to— because I think it just made me think about that. I do the opposite.

My thoughts are not contrarian. My thoughts are accurate. It's the other people that are contrarian. Okay, they think you have to make a cold call to make a sale. Would you rather have 1,000 cold calls or 1 referral?

Hmm, 1 referral, of course.

Every time. So why are salespeople wasting their time making cold calls when they should be out earning relationships and friendships to get referrals? I don't understand that. Well, I cold called all day. Hey, moron, come here. Let me explain something to you. First of all, let me get this wet washcloth out and slap you on the face a couple of times so you, you understand my 3-word definition of cold calling. Is waste of time. 95 out of 100 people will either slam the phone down on you or be pissed off that you called. Out of the 100, maybe one will buy. That's not a good percentage. Referrals are exactly the opposite. 95% of people will buy, 5% of people won't buy, usually because the salesperson screwed it up by being too aggressive. And so I would, you know, I'm going to ask, uh, anybody who does what I do, why are you teaching someone how to cold call? Rejection is the single biggest reason that salespeople leave a job.

That's fair. Yeah, I totally agree with that.

Second biggest reason Bad boss. That's amazing. Doesn't matter because way more than 50% are rejection and bad boss.

So what are your thoughts around— because we've had people on before and I've heard so many different angles about getting referrals. I had somebody on the other day, they they refer to them as introductions. I would love to hear your thoughts around the proper way to get referrals. And then the things that you've seen so many times and that you've heard from people that just do not work.

The best way to get a referral is give a referral. And most salespeople don't know how to do that. It requires work, period. And most salespeople will not do the hard work that it takes to make selling easy. Because if I give you a referral, I have a— you have a cosmic debt to me. I don't even have to say, well, I'd sure appreciate if you gave me one. You know, real estate agents who are somehow, uh, dumber than, than insurance agents— you buy a house for half a million dollars or $250,000 and you get a postcard from the insurance— from the, from the real estate agent saying, I run my business on referrals and I'd really appreciate Like, seriously, how stupid can you be to send me a postcard without picking up— am I allowed to swear?

Yeah.

Without picking up the fucking phone and asking a person, how's the new home? What's going on? Let me buy a lunch and make sure it's okay. I need a home tour. Yeah, that's They're too stupid. And as a result of it, if you, if you're, um, an insurance guy and you sell me a policy and you call me up and say, you know, I'd really appreciate a referral, I said, okay, great, let me think about it, um, I'll call you. And then a week later you call me back and say, hey, you know, I was wondering if you had thought of any referrals. I go, no, I haven't thought of any yet. I'll never take your call again, ever. Yeah, I'll never take your call again, ever. So that's, that's the challenge. Um, referrals are earned, not asked for.

Yeah, I like the word earned for sure. Whenever you said go out and earn relationships and earn referrals. I don't know, it just has a much deeper, different connotation, different, different meaning than just asking. I mean, the fact is you've got to do the work to get in to actually earn the referral. I think that's, I think that's so true. I have a question around Bradley.

Not only that, people there, and there's a secret, and I'll deliver the deep dark secret. People say, well, I have a great relationship with my customers. That doesn't mean shit to me. I want to know if you have a friendship with those customers, because if you have a friendship, that's going to get— that allows you to go over, have a beer, shoot the breeze, talk about family, talk about ball games, talk about why Auburn never wins at Alabama, and the things that, the things that are near and dear to you, the things that evoke emotion. That's where you really have to be. And if the salesperson cannot do that, you have no business asking for a referral because you haven't earned one.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's so true. Can I ask you about, I guess, this idea of— I don't know how else to put it— I'm managing inertia. And what I mean is oftentimes we do talk— I mean there's competitors. You just mentioned insurance space is obviously littered with all kinds of competitors, but sometimes the hardest, the thing that we're fighting in sales is just getting people to take action, getting people to respond to our emails, to answer the phone calls, even after we've had a conversation with them, just getting them to actually do things because we're on our phones, on social media, and we're quote, everyone's busy. And so you haven't— you end up having a good conversation with someone. You had somebody walk in or call in or whatever it was. Somehow you got a lead and you ended up having a conversation with them, and for whatever reason you didn't close it at the time. But then you just cannot get the person to get the ball in the end zone, so to speak.

And so it's just like, there's a lot of reasons for that, but, um, I'm going to show you— there's a there's a, there is a, uh, there's a program called Dubb, D-U-B-B.com. It's, if you go to it, do Dubb.com/GetEmEr, they give you a deal.

Okay.

Uh, you can put in the show notes or whatever.

Yep.

But you leave somebody's place, you hit the dot, and I'm going to try to do this for you right now if I can. I only have your phone number. I don't know whether it's going to show it to me or not. Hey Bradley, it was really nice talking to you today. I know, I know I promised you a couple of things. They're going to be in the email this afternoon by 3 o'clock. Excuse me. And I'm looking forward to having a coffee with you on Thursday. I'm going to upload this video and I can send it to you 2 minutes after I leave your office. Or leave your home.

I like that.

That starts the friendly process.

Yes.

Your kid is cute as— I really loved your car. You know, something, uh, you know, I— the other day I complimented a guy on his shirt and I said, what size is that? Is that nice? And it's just, it's funny. I evoke a smile from them, they feel comfortable about it, and it works. Yeah, it works every time. Not sometimes, it works every time. When this uploads, I'll see if I can send it to your text.

That'd be great. Yeah, yeah, I'd love that. I'd love that.

Look how easy that is.

Totally.

If people go home and they feel like they have to send a thank you note and there's writers, they, they have to send a follow-up email and they're wondering what the subject line should be. This is instant.

Yeah, that's great. I'm going to check this out.

Everyone should. I mean, there's no reason not to. How could you possibly be thinking—

as you're sending that to me, you mentioned, as it— like, in just even that example, is one of the big questions I wanted to ask you about is in-person appointments and virtual appointments. So everybody understands that in-person appointments, super valuable, the best, but it's really difficult to get people to come in the office and to meet with you in person. And so what are your thoughts about coffee agencies wanting to do that and meet with people? Coffee.

Everyone does coffee.

Yep, that's true.

Yeah. What are you taking in your coffee?

Yeah, cream.

Why, you like a girl or something?

No, I just like creamer. I just like creamer, no sugar.

You have to decide how you want to handle a follow-up from a sales call, because you can do this on a virtual call or an in-person call. And I was coughing and the video But you know what? It's personal and it's human. Yeah, it's totally human. Okay, so I love it. If you have a prospective customer and you send them a box of their favorite coffee, K-Cup, $10, and a mug It's fun. Sometimes all you need is a billion dollars. That's a $30 investment in a call. Now the person gets the coffee and they get the mug. What are they going to do with that?

Yeah, yeah, they're going to use it.

Are they going to show it to somebody else?

They might.

Yeah. Are they going to tell somebody else about it?

For sure.

Are they going to be on time for the appointment?

I would, I would certainly give it a better chance.

Correct. They already have guilt. They've already been surprised pleasantly. Go for it.

Yeah, it almost like you said earlier about debt. They, they're— I think you just said cosmic debt to you, right?

Cosmic debt. There— it's out in the airway somewhere. Somebody feels like they owe you something. Yeah, you don't mark it down. You don't ever have to mark it down like, you owe me, I sent you that mug, remember? You never called me back. You know what, dude, get over it. Um, people are going to disappoint you. That's part of life. Uh, you probably all have ex-spouses to prove it. But I think that the bottom line is that there is an ability for you to create value, and that's how the sale is made, with value creation. So I've already given you— and let's try to make it more personal, okay? I'm calling on an architect. There is one supreme book that every architect has read. It's called The Fountainhead. It's by Ayn Rand.

Yeah, I've heard of it.

Every architect has read it because it's all about architects, and it's loosely based on Frank Lloyd Wright. So the opening line of that book is Howard Roark laughed, and it's on mugs. You can find it. So if I send a guy a box of K-Cups and Howard Roark laughed, now this guy's going to know I know him.

Yes, yes, it's so deep. I love that, I love that. She actually— she wrote, uh, did you read the book, uh, which is huge book, Atlas Shrugged? Did you ever read that book?

Yeah, my favorite book of all time.

Is it really?

Yeah, it changed my life.

Yeah, I know, I know, I know.

Obviously you love capitalism with coffee.

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Yeah, I love it. You know, the opposite Oh my God, there's a, there's a problem in this country, and the problem is salespeople want customers to do their crap for them. You well know in the insurance business, the customer never fills out the form. The insurance agent always fills out the form. That's a standard rule in insurance.

Okay.

But I have— I'll get an email from somebody say, please make an appointment with me on my Calendly app. You know what my response is? Fuck you, make it yourself. That's my candid response.

You've practiced it a few times.

Oh my gosh, you have no idea. But the bottom line is, that's what's— that's what people do. That's what salespeople do. Please do your own work while I sit back and wait for you to make an appointment so I can sell you. No bueno.

I get that.

I get the message. Now, if, if, uh, if somebody famous sends me an email and says, hey, I really want to meet with you, can you put it— can you put a time on your— on my calendar? Sure. But a sales guy, no, not gonna happen. I have no reason to. I'm not gonna. And then the salesperson, the lazy, will go, the guy never put an appointment on my calendar, and blame the customer. Like, hey, schmuck, It's not the customer's fault.

So true, so true.

I hope I'm candid enough for that.

That was great.

Responsibility.

How do you— I, I do want to know, how do you— what is similar or different? What are some of the things that we need to know about selling virtually?

Uh, Let's look at each other's background right now. I'm relaxed, I'm at the beach. You can tell I'm a patriot. You tell a lot of things about me by, by this phone call. I see that you're an Auburn fan because I recognize the logo on the football, uh, probably a Cam Newton thing because it's your only claim to fame in 100 years.

It is, it is. Oh, we— no, no, no, wait a minute now, we have Bo Jackson.

Okay, that was before most people were born.

Yeah, well, he's still the greatest athlete of all time.

Um, I don't disagree with that, although Wilt Chamberlain comes pretty close. Um, but you have your bookcase behind you which shows you can read, and there's some other knickknacks there that, you know, it gives me the impression that you're okay. Your lighting is good. Your outfit is good. But how many people have you seen on a Zoom where their laptop is on a table? Yours is obviously elevated, correct?

Correct.

Why is that?

Why is my table elevated? Because I— it hurts my back to sit.

Well, I'll tell you this. Look, I'm— my computer is on this box of towels. Yes, yes, it could be here.

Yeah, not the same.

Come on. Yeah, no bueno. So I want to be— I want to make eye contact. The, the reasons that virtual sales meetings go south is because the salesperson doesn't understand that it's their ambiance and background are just as important as the meeting itself. I don't need to see your closet door or your unmade bed. That's ridiculous.

Yes.

And even my position, like, if I'm leaning forward, it's a much better look.

Yes.

Than if I'm not.

Yes.

So just little things like body positioning can make all the difference in the world. And The average salesperson has no concept of the value of that. I actually— hang on one second.

I think that's really valuable. I think that makes so much sense that we just don't think about those things.

Go buy this book. It's called—

yeah, I was going to ask you about it.

Yes, I wrote it. And but there's as much in here about how you're perceived than there is about how to go on social media and You know, it's unbelievable to me, just unbelievable to me how many morons think they can just turn on their computer and be okay.

Yeah, yeah, that's so good.

That's such a good point. I, I had— I did not know. I mean, I had to learn all of those things about not just microphones but camera positioning. I mean, even right now, technically, I have a little bit of a gap above my head of where I should be. I mean, technically, I should be more like—

it's better than a gap between your ears.

Yeah, that's true. That's true. That's true.

You're fine there. Yeah, you're totally fine.

So, but those little things, you're right. And because it is about how you're perceived on camera, and we think that just because it's virtual, you know, like the camera shooting up your nostrils or something like that, I mean, you know, those things really, really do matter. And of course, there's, you know, pick up your book, and I know you talk about that, because at the end of the day, it's still a human, you know, that we're connecting with. And and how you're perceived is so important.

And if I don't like how you look or where you are, I'm not going to trust you. Hi, it's a little noisy in here, I'm calling from a Starbucks. Dude, don't be doing that.

Yeah, yeah.

I know a sales guy who operates out of his truck because he's on the road as a salesman, but when he calls a customer He puts the American flag behind him, not his truck back window.

That's smart. I bet, I bet.

So it takes using your ingenuity and your creativity to be able to make it happen.

You know, honestly, you know what it goes to? The very first thing you said when you came on. Details matter.

Details, details.

Yeah.

And I mean, for me, um, I'm ready to do business 24/7 because customers call me from all over the world. If I'm asleep, I fake like I'm awake, and I'm, I'm ready to write a deal. I'm ready to do a deal.

Sure, sure.

And I'm anxious to do it because I know I can help. In my heart, I know I can help. That's everything.

I have to ask, probably the— I wanted to ask you about in-person appointments. I wanted to ask you about, you know, being able to get people's attention. But probably the main question I wanted to ask you, and I'd love to get— I'm excited to get your thoughts on this because you've written— I mean, how many books have you written at this point? I was looking it up and preparing for this interview. How many?

17?

Man, that's awesome.

I know.

That's amazing. That's a whole— we can— you and I can talk, uh, offline about how you've been able to produce that many books. But neither here nor there. I want to ask about closing. I want to ask about the, the moment that you ask for the sale, the moment that you finally give somebody the opportunity to say yes or no. I had, um, I had a terrible— I was— this was last week, guy knocks on my door selling pest control. And I have such a respect for the sales profession. So I let this guy go for 15 or 20 minutes. Terrible sales pitch. Didn't ask me questions. I'm not going to get into that. You know, we can unpack that another time, but I will give him credit for this. He did pitch and put it in front of me and give me an opportunity to say yes or no. That's one thing he did do well. Okay.

Okay. That So he didn't do it very well because he didn't say yes.

Well, that's true.

Okay, so here's the deal. If that guy would have said— if he would have handed you a little jar and said, do you know what this is? And you go, yeah, it's a bug. And I came to ask you how many of them are living in your house and you don't know it.

Oh, that would have been so, so much better than what he did.

Let me show you where bugs hide. Can I come in?

That would have been great. That'd be great.

Let me show you where bugs hide. Can I come in?

That was what— that was already been so much better than what he did because he spent— he spent— this is important for everybody to pick up. He spent 15 minutes telling me how, how they are so much better than Cook's Pest Control because he asked me, he said, who do you use? And I said, I think we use Cook's. And then everything from there was, here's how we're better than Cook's.

Like, that guy's an idiot. Actually, you don't shoot that guy, you shoot the guy that trained him.

Right, right, right. Yep, right.

Um, but from a standpoint of gaining engagement on a cold call or closing a sale, it's not the close, it's the open. That guy had no prayer to close the sale because he started it wrong. So let's consider the open more important than the close.

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Such a good point. So for our listening audience, how would you— how would you open in a conversation with someone, say, about their insurance?

How would you be different?

Everybody hates insurance, but Mr. Jones, everybody needs insurance. And what I found in my experience is that 74% of the people that have insurance have the wrong stuff. I don't know if I can help you, but if you show me what you have Maybe over a cup of coffee. If I think I can help you, I'll tell you. And if I don't think I can help you, I'll tell you that too. Is that fair enough? Of course it's fair enough. Fair enough is the best closing question in the world. Oh, love that. Only one to use. Now, where did I get the number 74%? Answer: I made it up, but it sounds good.

Yeah.

And my goal is to get to— and I'll tell the customer that— but my goal is to get to them to help them. I'm there to help. If I can help you, that's cool. If I can't help you, I'll tell you.

Oh, that's so good. That's so good.

Substitute the word sale for help. I'm there to help. Oh, well, that throws a different light on it.

And that's what they do.

I, I need to help more customers to reach my help quota. My goal is to help 50 customers a month.

Oh, that's good. I love it.

I love it.

And I've only helped 28 people so far, Mr. Jones. Who else do you know that might need help?

I think this could be— I, I think I would love to just— I, I think we could— I would love to just go for 2 hours because there's just so much knowledge that you have around sales and more, and not even just sales, but human psychology.

Yeah, words.

Like, it's sales, but it's human psychology and words. You just have such a gift of understanding that.

Thank you. It comes from selling in New York City. You have no choice but to get the gift. You, you learn the gift, period.

Is it that? But it's also just the reps you've put in over your lifetime. I mean, really.

Oh, that's true. But in order to do what we do, you need balls. Yeah, sales balls. So if I got a door slammed on me in Manhattan— I have no time for you— I would bang on the door again and go, did you mean no time today? Can I— is Tuesday all right? Can I come back on Tuesday? And about 30% of the time, the person would come back to the door smiling. The other 70% of the time, I heard expletives that I cannot repeat even in an all-men's drunken crowd. So I think that— but if I had no balls, I wouldn't have knocked twice.

Yeah, yeah.

I would have taken it as a rejection instead of an opportunity to have some fun.

Yes, yes. Just your mentality though at that point, but even your mentality to, to, to see it that way, because so many people—

you mentioned it earlier, you said it earlier—

rejection, rejection kicks out 74% of the salespeople and they just wither.

Exactly, they, they wither and they go home and kick their dog or kick their cat and blame it on the customer.

Yes, yes, yes, yeah, so true.

No, true.

They don't—

the guy didn't return my call. Why do you think that happened? Because the voicemail that you left them sucked. That's why.

Yeah, be better, be better.

But I believe, I firmly believe that if a salesperson will just do what they instinctively feel that they'll be a hell of a lot better off than if they're trying to follow some script.

Huh, that's pretty profound. Yeah, just do what they— what, what, what their gut and their instinct is like.

Your own script.

Yeah.

Hey, my grandmom had cancer and died and didn't have insurance. And that's what spurred me to get into the insurance business. And I wonder— I don't wonder if you have insurance, I'm sure you do. I wonder what kind, and I wonder if you have enough. So we wonder what kind, and I wonder if you have enough. So if we could spend 5 minutes talking about that, I'd be ever so grateful. And my grandma would thank you.

It's okay to have a little fun on the sales calls, right? Put in a little humor and a little laughter.

Yep.

Yeah.

3 Dallas Cowboys walk into a bar to watch the Super Bowl.

That's true. That hurts. Cause that's actually my, my NFL team is the Dallas Cowboys.

I took a chance on that one.

Yeah. Yeah. You, you, you hit that one nail on the head. I, it is similar to watching Auburn football. I have to say. So there's that. You know, misery loves company, I guess.

The Cowboys should have won last year.

Yeah, they should have. That— they should have. They had a— they had a really, really strong team. You're exactly right, they should have. Yeah. Jeffrey, I know people are going to want to reach out to you to be able to help them. Obviously, you find all of your books, um, on Amazon, etc., but where can they go?

Get them or— me— get them or— me— and that'll take you to my coaching program. But if you really want to be involved do that.

GetEmEr.me. We'll make sure we put that and the dub in the, uh, in the show notes.

If you're not using video in your sales process strategies, tactics, follow-up, follow-through, you're a fool.

Love it. Jeffrey, hope to have you back on in the future.

Bradley, my pleasure. Anytime, Bob.

So the big question is this: how do small business owners like us grow our leadership, develop our teams, and scale our business in a way that allows us to get our products and services out to the world yet still remain profitable?

That is the question, and this podcast will give you the answers. I'm Bradley Hamner, and this is the Club Capital Leadership Podcast.

Hey, before we get into today's episode, did you know that Club Capital is the largest accounting advisory firm for insurance agency owners in the country, providing monthly accounting, CFO services, and tax preparation? Check them out at club.capital.