Episode 188: Fireside Chat - How Much Should I Pay Myself?

So the big question is this: how do small business owners like us grow our leadership, develop our teams, and scale our business in a way that allows us to get our products and services out to the world yet still remain profitable? That is the question, and this podcast will give you the answers. I'm Bradley Hamner, and this is the Club Capital Leadership Podcast. Hey, before we get into today's episode, did you know that Club Capital is the largest accounting advisory firm for insurance agency owners in the country, providing monthly accounting, CFO services, and tax preparation. Check them out at club.capital. This podcast is brought to you by Autopilot Recruiting. Join over 1,200 State Farm agents in putting your recruiting on autopilot. Any successful insurance agent will tell you how important team is. Finding those rockstar team members doesn't happen when left to chance. It happens through consistent recruiting. You never know when you're going to lose a team member. And the key to an incredible team is constantly searching for the best talent. Autopilot Recruiting is a continuous recruiting service where you'll be assigned a recruiter that has been trained to recruit on your behalf every business day. This recruiter will take over and revamp your CareerPlug, send out assessments, do pre-screen phone interviews, and schedule your in-office interviews. All you need to do is to show up and give a thumbs up or a thumbs down. This ongoing service is extremely affordable and a no-brainer for taking your insurance agency to the next level. Listeners of the Club Capital Leadership Podcast, go to autopilotrecruiting.com and use the code Club Capital to get started. Again, autopilotrecruiting.com and use the code Club Capital to get started.

Welcome to another episode of the Club Capital Leadership Podcast. My name is Bradley Hamner, your host. On today's episode, Micah and I do a fireside chat discussion of How much should I pay myself? We get this question. Club Capital team has gotten this question so many times, and I think you're going to learn a lot. Be patient with yourself. If this is all new to you, then go back and listen to this episode again. Jump on the phone with somebody at Club Capital, but hopefully this serves all of you. Without further ado, here's my fireside chat with Micah Cannon. Micah, what's up, my man?

Bradley, what's going on? I know this is coming out on a Wednesday, but happy Monday.

Yeah, happy Monday to you too. All right. So when I did the webinar back with Coach P several weeks ago, a topic that has— that came up on that webinar, and I know you and I have had many just kind of casual conversations, is how much should I pay myself? And I think that business owners want it— want the specific number, right? They just say like, how much should I pay myself? And that's what I'm going to go with. And ultimately, I think we'll get to that. That question, but I really do— or get to that answer. But I do think that this is a topic that is— you don't want to just give the answer of it depends, but it really does depend on a lot of different circumstances. And so I think that to start to begin to kind of like frame the conversation, what are some of the important elements to think about? And then we can kind of begin to feather through each one of those elements as we go in this conversation. But what are some of the biggest pieces of thinking about, or even how to begin to think about, how you should compensate yourself as a small business owner?

Yeah. So this is definitely a pretty frequent question, you know, that our team gets. And to be honest, you know, you expected a lot more of new business owners, new agency owners, kind of just getting into into, you know, either this business or into small business ownership. But honestly, we see the question come, you know, from a lot of established business owners as well that have, you know, really, you know, I think a lot of times what we find is, you know, there's still a lot of business owners out there that, you know, have been in business for quite some time. And have done well, but have really just been doing it flying by the seat of their pants. And so when they start working with a firm like ours, you know, a lot of these questions that have, you know, sat on the back burner for like a long time kind of come up and say, hey, am I doing this correctly? And so, yeah, we get this question quite a bit. You know, the general answer of it depends is true. Um, but I think this podcast will help understand why, right? And the things that we think about, uh, too, and, and that we want to make sure everybody else kind of knows and thinks about, right? Because when I hear that, um, question of how much should I pay myself, um, you know, to me it's, it's less on how, how much right away. I mean, we will obviously get to that, um, but it's what method Am I going to pay myself? And at what cadence am I going to pay myself? Um, those tend to be a little bit more important, um, especially when, when we're working with clients, um, truly understanding that, right? Um, and so those are the things that we end up working, uh, on with clients more often, right? And so when, when we think about method, um, there, there's an honestly a number of different methods, right? It's Am I going to put myself on payroll, you know, or am I not? Right. Am I going to take out, you know, regular distributions from the business only? Right. So you could kind of do one or the other, right? I'm only going to be there on salary or I'm only going to be on distributions. Some of this depends on your entity. Type, right? So the difference between taxing yourself as a sole proprietor or being an S corporation, and then at what cadence is super important to one. I would say one of the bigger areas that we try and focus on because it really centers around discipline of financials and financial management as a whole. So many people, most people were W-2 employees, or at least know that model way more than they do, you know, just straight business ownership. And so now with most clients, most agents, insurance agents being sole owners, that's what we typically find. There's some people that have some partnerships or joint-owned agencies, but typically it's sole owner. It's all— it's like, hey, this is my bank account, just like, you know, my personal one. So I'm going to tap into it whenever I need something, to which I totally get. But when you're managing a business and managing cash flow, doing, you know, really the financials on a regular basis, having discipline around how and when to pull out money is incredibly crucial, not just for cash flow management, but to really help you understand how the business is running and make sure that you are compensating yourself as the owner appropriately throughout the year.

Yeah. You know, I think there's a lot of people that are very disciplined in their— in other aspects of their life, with their diet, with their workout routine, with whatever it may be. But I think having or embedding financial discipline into your business is just equally as important. And yes, it is your business, it is your bank account. And so you can go in there and strip $5,000 out of the account if you want. You can, absolutely. But I think that even though you can doesn't necessarily mean that you should, right? And if you do, then at least it has something that you've set out and said, once a quarter as an example, or monthly or whatever that again cadence may be. Let me ask you, how do you differentiate with the different types of entities that someone may be? Yeah.

So the biggest ones within our space are going to be— it's really sole proprietor or an S corporation. And so as a sole proprietor, you know, generally either, either way, they're both actually referred to as pass-through entities. So the profit of the business comes straight to the owner or owners, but typically just the owner as their income on the tax return. So the entity itself is not taxed besides maybe some small just incorporation fees or something like that. But it's the income itself or revenue itself. It's not really taxed. And it's just taxed at the owner level on their individual tax return. There are the case of LLCs. LLCs are great. It's the most universal entity type and you can actually choose whether you want to be taxed as a sole proprietor or an S corp. So there's a lot of flexibility there. But depending on the carrier that agents are with, Some carriers do not allow them at all to be an LLC. They won't contract with them at all. So, so a lot of our agents won't be an LLC for that reason. They'll either be a sole proprietor or they'll be— they have to, you know, in essence be a C corp, a true corporation. But then from a tax perspective, they elect to file Subchapter S, which allows it to be that pass-through. Entity in the form of taxation. So those are the two that we find, and the big differences come into really just the requirements there. So as a sole proprietor, a lot of people will start the business— when they typically start the business, a lot of agents will be a sole proprietor right away. It's certainly the cheapest to operate right away. A lot of people think it's very much just an extension of themselves. Though, and it's really not. It still has— it's a sole proprietorship. It has its own EIN, right? So an employee identification number, which is in essence a Social Security number for a business, right? So it's its own entity still, even though it's a sole proprietorship. And the thing with sole proprietors, though, is— or sole proprietorships— is that you actually, from the IRS code, cannot be on payroll. Right? So you're going to have a payroll system, uh, you know, we use Gusto or ADP, um, and you'll have your employees on there. And a lot of times people put themselves on there too, right? Why? Because they're so used to that. Um, actually, as a sole proprietor, you cannot be on payroll. Um, it is something that they do not allow. Um, and so immediately that causes panic, right? Oh my gosh, I'm not going to get paid. Right. Which immediately starts this question of, wait, how much do I pay myself? Right. And what do I do with the taxes? Right. So as a sole proprietor, you have to immediately get into this understanding of, okay, wow, I need to take distributions from the business to be able to pay myself. And that's how I do it. And then automatically, right away, you're not having those withholdings that you Yeah, you know, paying federal, state, and sometimes local tax. And so you got to understand what those are and work with your CPA or, you know, one of our CPAs to help understand how to make quarterly payments. If you withdraw $10,000, you know, over the first quarter, am I going to be taxed on that? Right. And it all depends on what that profitability number is going to be. I think we just did a podcast understanding a little bit of this just last week.

Let me ask you a question real quick on this. At what point do you believe if, if a business starts out as a, as a sole prop, where's the tipping point? I'm glad I came up with that word. What's the tipping point from a profitability perspective where it begins to make sense, generally speaking, to say, you know what, you're going to get more, which I know we're going to get to the benefits of an S corp in a second, but it now is worth you making the switch, becoming incorporated, moving over, getting the benefits. I mean, I think that's a big— that's a big question too, because somebody starting out, hey, first couple of years, we're not— we're maybe breaking even, just a little bit of profit. Well, then it starts to build and you get more profitable over time. What's that tipping point? Yeah.

So that tipping point, I think before I talk about the tipping point, I'm going to talk about why is it even a question, right? A lot of people say, wait, I just need to be an S corp from day one, right? S corp, S corp, S corp. There is a big kind of buzz around this because not enough small business owners have elected to be S-corps and there's, there's a ton of tax benefits to being an S-corp. And, and so there is a good buzz kind of in the industry of everyone's like, I want to be an S-corp right now. And we say, great, you know, let's, let's see if that makes sense for you. But the reason why there's benefits to this is that there's different ways that you can be taxed in an S-corp. Right. So I'll first say for a sole proprietorship, there's, you know, I'm going to give a lot of high-level stuff today, so I might skip over some, some exact things. I would say talk to, you know, what, you know, your assigned, you know, accountant, CPA, you know, on the Club Capital side or your, your own if you don't work with us. But I'll give some kind of high-level stuff from like the consultant and advisor within me. But On the sole proprietor perspective, it is generally one form of tax. It flows all the profit from your business. So say you, you know, have $500,000 revenue, $400,000 expenses, $100,000 profit in the agency. That $100,000 comes to you as the individual, as income on your tax return at the end of the year from the agency. Now, you might have other stuff on your tax return. I'm not going to get into that. But just say $100,000 there, um, you're going to pay, uh, what's called self-employment tax as well as income tax on, uh, uh, on that $100,000. And so in essence what this is, and just to boil this down a little bit, is, you know, you have to pay the employee and employer portion of, uh, FICA, um, which is Social Security and Medicare, right? So typically as an employee you only pay like half of that, right? You play the employee portion of it and your employer pays the other half. Yeah, right. Well, now you're both, right? So you have to pay both of those, right? So you have to pay both of those yourself, right? Out of profit, right? Instead of having one reduced profit, half of that reduced profit. So you have to pay both of those out of profit as well as income taxes. Right. When you move over to an S corp, so a big stark difference is you're then required to be on payroll, right? So you go from required to not be on payroll to required to be on payroll. And you must have a— what's— what they— what the IRS claims is a reasonable salary, right? Yeah. So you pay yourself a dollar, right? You have to be a reasonable salary for your role is in the business, right? As the owner, as for how much time you spend. Right. So it is partially reasonable if you only spend 2 days in the office, you know, it could be a reduced salary type of thing. Right. But it needs to be reasonable. And you can work with our team on kind of defining what that is. We can work with you on what that means for you, but you have to be on payroll. And then the rest is— the rest of the profit then comes to you on the tax return, just like it does on the sole proprietorship. But that profit is taxed at a lower rate than what the salary portion is taxed at. So when you're on salary, then when you have an S corporation, you have regular taxes, right? The employer portion of that initial tax is actually an expense to the business that's drawing down profit, right? And the extra amount is taxed at a lower rate. So let's just say in this example, we have the same $100,000 in, in profitability from the agency. But as an S corp, we had put you on for $70,000 salary, right? That $70,000 is taxed to you relatively the same. It's a little bit less, but relatively the same as a sole proprietorship. But then it's the other $30,000 because technically from the business, the business only profited $30,000. At this point, that $30,000 flows to you on your income tax return, but it's in, in essence, in essence, a different field on the tax return that has much lower taxes. Mm-hmm. So when you— apples to apples, right? When you compare it, you're paying a much lower tax rate than you were to begin with. Yeah. So the question of when do I switch, because most people, most people hear that and be like, I'm switching tomorrow, right? Um, and the, the point to switch, in essence, what has to happen here is you have to incorporate, um, there's probably a number of things here, but you have to incorporate, um, which costs a good amount, uh, you know, money, although it's a one-time fee. Um, and then the second thing you have to do is file a whole separate tax return every year, a business tax return now, because a corporation has to file for taxes every year and in essence show its financial statements to the IRS. And then you get what's called a K-1 that shows how much of that profit goes to you and that goes into your personal return. And so it's a whole separate process and that's an additional fee every year. So, you know, what we like to do is show what's the cost-benefit analysis of doing this. And so generally, you know, you're going to save money, but you're also going to have some more expenses by operating as a corporation. And so what we tend to find is around $80,000 to $100,000, really about $80,000 is when we— or $60,000 is when we talk about it with clients. $60,000 in profit, especially if they're on an upward trend, $60,000 to $80,000 in profit of the agency. Is when we would be talking about switching from a sole proprietorship to an S corp to start reaping those benefits moving forward.

Yeah, that's, that's big. Yeah, I think that helps people to begin to even have some sort of a range, right? People want, want a range to say what's the— not what's the specific number of, okay, I hit 60, now I'm going to go do it. Well, no, but the conversation needs to start. And so if you're at $150,000, well, you probably would have benefited from at least having the discussion yourself. And then that obviously brings, you know, one of the things big— I don't know, it's almost like a, uh, you know, people have— are on different sides of this— is, uh, you know, what's the reasonable salary amount, you know? It's like, well, you paying yourself a $15,000 salary, you know, and your company does $750,000 in top-line revenue with a quarter of a million dollars in profit. Yeah, I don't think that the $15,000 salary for the year is going to— is going to fly. Conversely, it's probably not going to make sense for you to put yourself on a $250,000, $20,000 a month salary if your business is doing $250,000 in, in, in, in profit for the year either. And so really that's where your individual situation can come through. Can you just speak to maybe a little bit around that reasonable salary aspect and maybe give people somewhat of a range to consider there too?

Yeah. So I'll say, like, the way we look at it is, you know, we've found in the industry there's a couple of different points to it. But, but one of the first ones we start with that's just a little bit easier to kind of get people's mind around is we say roughly about $70,000 to $80,000 to $85,000 is a reasonable salary for, for an insurance agency owner. Now, that has context to it. It's not the same thing for every, every single agent. And if you were, you know, just starting out, does it make sense to be that? No. So we'd look at the size of your agency and the amount of revenue that you're pulling in to the business. We'll look at how you're paying the rest of your team too. Does that put you as the, you know, fifth on the totem pole in terms of how much people are bringing in, right? You don't want to You don't want all of your employees to be making more than you do if you're still working in the business 5 days a week, right? As the owner, probably not, right? Um, you know, but do you have to, you know, as your agency, uh, grows in revenue, um, does it mean, you know, going from one, you know, say $500,000 in, uh, revenue to $1 million to $2 million, does it mean that your W-2 income has to double every time as well? The answer is no. So, I mean, it doesn't have to stay in lockstep with revenue. You can reach a point where you say, look, this is my salary, that's what it is, and then I'm going to reap the benefits of the distributions being at a lower tax. Like, for sure, that is 100% kind of what should happen there. Now, does it— should it go up a little bit? You know, yeah, if you've got a $2 million you know, revenue business, yeah, it's probably up a little bit from, from an initial 50, say, that you started out with, but it doesn't need to stay lockstep.

Yeah, I think this also just really speaks to— I'm going to state the obvious here, but if you, you can't call enough people yourself, if you call 4 or 5 of your peers, Nothing wrong with that. Do that and kind of get an idea, but you're not going to have the data that Club Capital has to be able to look at it and say across several hundred that has seen everything from brand new to 25 years in business running a couple million dollars in revenue through the thing. We've got kind of an idea of what it needs to be so that it makes the most sense for you, right?

100%. Yeah, I mean, we can— we see what it is on— gosh, what is it, 600, 650, uh, agencies now, and kind of what they do. And what I will say, it's not always the exact same, you know, around, uh, for every single person. It's based upon their, um, you know, exact, uh, you know, needs for the agency. You know, another example too is, you know, there's a lot of agents that, you know, have done a really good job of creating you know, a pretty large business, or it doesn't even need to be incredibly large, but a very efficient business. And they get into some other initiatives. And truly, at that point, they're not involved that much day to day. Right. And that's okay, too. And for that, you know, you can reduce your salary when it comes to that point, too. I mean, just because I'm in the business, right, you know, like I'm our our CEO and an owner, but if I decided not to be the CEO at one point and hire a CEO in, well, I'm not getting CEO salary anymore. Yeah, right. So there's the ability to look at that and what's right for the business and depending on what you're doing, you know, with the business and how you, you know, how you interact with the business. But, you know, it's all also something that needs to be able to be you can prove, you know, if you were audited too, right? So if you're audited, that's a question they're going to ask.

Yes.

What's your role, you know, in the company?

I just now thought about, you know, some other considerations would be what are some of your aspirations with your 401(k) that you may offer within, within your own business for your employees and obviously for yourself? You certainly, you know, considerations. You and I mentioned this right before we hit record. Children, spouse on payroll, kind of what, what are some of the possible benefits there? You mentioned the other one, you know, do you have other businesses that you're involved with? How are those structured? How do all of those flow to your personal income tax return? What is your involvement in the business on a day-to-day basis? And so it truly is. It depends, right? And everybody hates that. But I think we've given enough context to be able to say, okay, there are a lot of factors. Somebody listening to this is I have one business, I'm involved with one business, I'm a sole proprietor right now, I'm considering making a move to an S corporation, or I am an S corporation, this is my only business, you know, what's the numbers? And hopefully we've been able to give you at least some sort of an idea to say, okay, how does that compare for me? And if you want to be able to get an idea of, for, you know, well, how does this— what are— are there other things I need to be looking at? Don't you, uh, kind of closing with this, Is there anything else that we've missed that is a consideration that someone should have when determining how much should I pay myself?

So, yes, I think some of the things you just mentioned there come into place for, for the owner as well as when we start thinking about, you know, the, you know, additional benefits of the owner salary, children, you know, something, you know, incredibly key to taxes in general and minimizing taxes is minimizing taxable income, right? As much as you can, right? Well, the way you minimize taxable income, you know, from a business perspective is you increase your write-offs, right? Which are increase your expenses, right? Now we don't want you to not be profitable by any means, right? But there are things that you're going to spend money on or want to spend money on, you know, for your own personal life or investments that could end up becoming business write-offs as well. Right. So an example there is 401(k), right? You're going to want to, you know, put away money for retirement. So when you're doing that as a sole proprietor, there are— you aren't necessarily able to run all of that through the business depending on what plans you have or if your employees are a part of it or not. But getting— being able to be an employee and participate as an employee on the plans allows you to start being able to run the retirement as a write-off through the business. Right. So lowers that income from the amount that you're putting into retirement. Likewise, health insurance and things like that being a write-off for you as well, which typically is fine from owner health insurance the way some of the laws are today. But a lot of people want to put— sometimes either the question is, do I put my salary on or excuse me, do I put my spouse on salary or do I not? Right. Maybe I don't want to because I want to benefit in just having more profit. That is taxed less, right? But we also need to think, okay, well, it'd be great if, you know, you could put your spouse on payroll with most of their payroll going to 401(k), you know, distributions as well. Right. And maybe putting all of that towards 401(k). So there's a lot of things to consider when it comes to that that you should definitely talk to your CPA or ours on, on what some of the strategy can be. To be able to take some of the things that you're going to want to be doing personally and try and say, hey, is there a way to make this, you know, a business expense? You know, if I do certain things different with my entity or if I add myself to payroll appropriately and things like that. So that's just almost what we'd call like a compliance measure of making sure that you're, you know, acting in the, you know, the most fiscally responsible way that you can. To save as much money on taxes.

I just want to say for somebody listening that, you know, we recognize that there are people listening to this, that everything Micah, you said, they were just in lockstep. Okay, I'm doing that. I'm doing that. And it almost was validation for what it is that they're already doing. And that's awesome. Understand, too, that some people may say, this is so confusing. Like, I just do not get it. I'm trying. They're going to go back and listen to the episode again and they're trying to figure out, okay, wait a minute, self-employment taxes, FICA, what was he talking about that and, and how does that fall in with profitability, etc.? I did a solo episode. I don't know, this was several weeks ago called Time Under the Bar. And the idea was, is that you know, if you just give yourself enough time and don't kind of shy away from this, you can learn this. You really can. This is a skill that you can develop, and it's not to turn you into a CPA. You don't need to do that. But these are important decisions. You want to be able to bring home as much money as you possibly can, spendable money to your family, and with being able to you know, avoid as much taxes as possible and do so in a legal way is really important. There are things you can do. The IRS code is not a— is not necessarily a gotcha. I mean, it is designed for you to be able to leverage as many of those different strategies as possible. And an S corp just being one of them. And there's not this just perfect exact science. You know, it is— it is this like what's reasonable as an example. You know, they don't say, well, if your revenue is this, you pay yourself this. They don't, they don't have that. And so I think that there's ways to be able to protect yourself and then also be able to bring home as much money as you possibly can. Give yourself the time to develop the skill of understanding your financials and get those on a regular basis. Every single month, begin to look at your financials. And I think that even if somebody is brand new to this, has no idea kind of what they're talking about. You can learn this. I am just a country boy from Alabama. I didn't know how to do this stuff either. I mean, I really did not know how to do it. I mean, I've shared mine whenever we did the recast a week or so, two, a couple weeks ago, about like, I had no idea. And it does take some time. It's not going to be just one conversation, you immediately get it. But there is this point to where I think the light flip, the, the light switch does flip, and you say Ah, ah, okay, this makes sense to me now. I, I do get it. Don't you agree?

Yeah, I do. And, but totally to your point there, don't be overwhelmed by it, right? I mean, I, I think especially for, uh, I think two things. I think a lot of our clients, you know, listen to this too, which is, is good for them to see, like, you know, I don't necessarily need to know all of this. I just need to make sure I'm paying attention sometimes. Right, because we've got this. Um, uh, but then, you know, obviously those that, you know, don't work with us or, um, uh, or outside, you know, the industry that, that we specifically focus on, um, you know, make sure you're asking the right questions, right? Um, you know, you don't necessarily need to know everything, but you need to have it as a bullet point to talk to with, um, you know, with the experienced practitioner, right? Like, you don't need to know everything behind, um, you know, behind medicine, but you definitely want a checklist to make sure that, yeah, you know what to ask the doctor about when you go in there, right? You don't need to understand all of it. You're probably not going to understand it, you know, fully the way they do, but come to the, um, to the table with some questions, right? Of saying, hey, I've heard about this, or I've done some research, some preliminary research on this, and I'd like to understand more about this or how it applies to me. Definitely do that with, you know, with the person that you're trusting, you know, to help you navigate this entire, you know, world of finance and tax.

I think next time we're going to start calling these instead of fireside chats, we're going to call them cold brew and cold brew conversations. You know, I like cold brew. I saw you drinking a cold brew. All right, man. Appreciate you, Micah.

All right. Have a good one.

You know, a quick recap is simply this. There's just— there is a lot of different moving pieces that you need to consider for your specific situation. Now, there is not an endless amount of different ones. There's just the main ones that make sense. How many different businesses do you have? Or what type of entity are you? What are some of the aspirations you have? What are you currently doing, etc.? And ultimately being able to sit down with someone and say, And I think as Micah was saying at the very end, you know, ask the right questions, be dangerous enough to be able to ask the right questions and challenge who it is that you're working with. Say, is this the best thing for me currently? Because where, where you were maybe 2 or 3 years ago in your business may be vastly different than where you are today. And so maybe this is a good reminder for some of you that may say, hey, I've been paying myself the exact same way for 4, 5, 6 years, but the business has doubled during that period of time. Maybe it's at least worth a 30-minute conversation to jump on the phone with someone. All right, everyone, uh, if you're not a member of Club Capital, you want to just jump on the phone with someone and kind of discuss your situation, go to club.capital. As always, big shout out to our podcast partners, Autopilot Recruiting, Coach P, and DirectClicks. Go to directclicksinc.com if you're ready to have a much more of an online profile for your business, SEO, Google Pay-Per-Click deliver to your sales team leads that they can actually convert. Go to directclicksinc.com. You hear me say it so often, A players. The biggest investment you can have in, in your business is the investment in your team. You all know that, and you want to be able to have A players. Well, to do that, you got to be able to have a really good pipeline that's ongoing, a regular pipeline of not just leads for your business— you can reach out DirectClicks for that— but also pipeline of great candidates. So go to autopilotrecruiting.com. Make sure you let, uh, the team over there know that you heard about them on the Club Capital podcast. And then every single week I talk about the value that David brings and his team brings twice a week in with the Coach P. You heard the, uh, recast I did of the webinar I did on Coach P. He brings in, uh, certainly way better speakers than me, uh, once a month in an agency-only owner call. So go to coachpconsulting.com and let David know you heard about him on the Club Capital Leadership Podcast. All right, everyone, hope this served all of you. Until next episode, lead well.

So the big question is this: how do small business owners like us grow our leadership, develop our teams, and scale our business in a way that allows us to get our products and services out to the world, yet still remain profitable? That is the question, and this podcast will give you the answers. I'm Bradley Hamner, and this is the Club Capital Leadership Podcast. Hey, before we get into today's episode, did you know that Club Capital is the largest accounting advisory firm for insurance agency owners in the country, providing monthly accounting, CFO services, and tax preparation? Check them out at club.capital.