Episode 220: When They Say No with Richard Fenton and Andrea Waltz

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Welcome to another episode of the Club Capital Leadership Podcast. My name is Bradley Hemner, your host. On today's episode, we have a repeat guest, Richard Fenton and Andrea Waltz. They came on episode 129 when we talked about Go for No. They just came out with a new book, When They Say No: The Definitive Guide to Handling Rejection— not objections, rejection— in Sales. Love this episode with them. They're a fun duo to have an interview with. I know you're going to get a ton out of it. Without further ado, Here's my conversation with Richard and Andrea.

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Richard and Andrea, welcome back to the Club Capital Leadership Podcast.

Thank you, Bradley. It is always good to be with you.

Great to see you again.

Yeah, great to see you too. So we're gonna definitely reference the episode that we did in August of 2022. I think it's episode 129. We'll put that in the notes. People want to go back and listen to that episode. We talked about your first book, Go for No, and we're really going to take it now to the next level and talk about your new book that just came out. But before we get into the details of that, Andrea, why don't you share with us What was the prevailing thought, the thing that you were seeing that said, hey, you know what, it's time for us to now get this book out to go on the backs of the last book that we had written, Go for No.

Yeah. So, well, let me just preface this by saying so many of today's speakers, you know, they will put out a book every 2 to 3 years. Richard and I really like to take our time. So we published Go for No in 2000. It took us 22 years to come up with the second book. So just so people listening understand, we're not just throwing a book out every 2 years because we need to do it. But what we did see, to your point, was giving people the advice, and they should go back and listen to episode 129 for sure, giving people the advice that, hey, if you want more yeses in your business, in your life, you need to be hearing no more often. So that's kind of the Go for No framework. But then we recognized, and we've kind of known this for a long time, we just, we, I guess we never felt like we had a really good handle on how we wanted to, what the framework was and, and how we would want the book to unfold. But we've known for a long time that once people started hearing no, they needed to know what to do with that, right? They needed to know what to think and what to say and, and what to do next. Some more strategies, some more tactics, because in the first book, in Go for No, it really was kind of a philosophy on rejection and a philosophy on how if you want to succeed, you need to embrace failure. And so this one is a lot more, I guess you'd say, practical, a lot more tactical, both from a mindset standpoint and an action standpoint. So we're excited about it. I think it's a really good follow-up, and I think it's a must-needed follow-up. Yeah.

And if you think about, you know, Go for No was a very proactive book. It was, you know, get out there and get more nos. This book is a little more reactive. In other words, when somebody says the word no, okay, how are you going to react to that? What do you, what do you think? What do you say? What do you do when you hear the no? And so it really kind of takes it to the next level in that regard.

It's almost like it's answering the question, okay, I've got the no, now what do I do? Now what do I do? And maybe what you saw was people were saying, hey, I'm going for no, and then they just stop. They get the no and then they don't know really what else to do. I heard this, Richard, actually just this morning. Somebody was talking about competence leads to confidence. And so this basically is giving people the practical tools to build their competence, What do they need to think? What do they need to know? What do they need to say once they've actually gotten the no? Is that fair to say?

Yeah, very fair to say. And I mean, I'll use an example here. You know, price objections for anybody who sells anything for a living is very common. And, you know, we've spoken to salespeople who, you know, have been selling for 2 years And they're like, yeah, I still get thrown when somebody throws a price objection at me. You know, I don't know. I don't know what to say. And our first reaction is, you've been selling for 2 years and this is a surprise that somebody is going to have a price objection and you haven't, you haven't thought this through. Putting that aside, the reality is you have to have a certain amount of confidence in order to handle objections. And we look at objections as being kind of an extension of the no category. They're certainly not saying, you know, saying yes. And so, you know, so a great example of this is one of our heroes from 30+ years ago, Zig Ziglar, had a book, The Secrets of Closing the Sale. And he used this example of handling a price objection. And when the person would say, you know, oh, your price is too high, he came up with this response. This was his preplanned response. And he said, I understand how you feel about that. He said, our founder felt the same way. But our founder realized it was better to explain the price one time than to apologize about the quality forever.

Mm-hmm.

So let me explain to you why our price is set where it's set. Now, if you are armed with something like that and you know that that's how you're going to start, I, I mean, that adds to your confidence significantly. And we've used that approach, you know, for 30 years in selling our training programs. To companies because, you know, let's face it, you know, when you charge a fair amount of money, you've got to be able to back it up instead of just saying, oh, okay, well, let's just cut the price in half. So confidence is a big part of it.

Yeah. Oh, I love that. So what is the first thing? Because if we took the idea of go for no to kind of an extreme example, and so people are, you know, they're measuring the number of nos that they get and they're celebrating those nos. At the end of the day, though, those nos or objections that they are getting, there's opportunity within all of that. Okay? They're not going to convert 100%. Nobody expects that. But still, there's a lot of opportunity there. So what's the first place then for people to go to whenever they start to say, we have bought into the philosophy, to the mindset of going for no, we got that, we understand that, we're going to measure that, we're going to track that. Again, we talked about that in depth in the previous episode. But now what's the first place for them to go? Andrea?

Yeah. So one of the big themes throughout the book, and it's, it's woven in different, in different strategies, and there's, there's 41 of them and, and it comes up in several of them. And that, and that theme is trust. And along with that trust, that goes value. So if you can, if you can approach getting those nos as an opportunity to find value, and one of those key points of value is it allows you the opportunity to build trust, which sounds crazy. It's like, why would anybody who gives me a no, how is this building trust? But when you show up again and again, so the mindset is when you get that no, don't just turn tail and never talk to this person again and assume it's never. Stay engaged, react positively. So one of the strategies is don't argue, don't attack. So don't use this as a moment to burn a bridge. Figure out, okay, so what can I do to stay connected, stay engaged with this person, follow up with this no, How can I keep showing up and offering value? And so that builds that trust. So that's a running theme throughout. And when you approach it that way, then instead of feeling like, oh man, that didn't go well, or all I got was nos today, you can look at your activity and say, and say, okay, I got 6 nos today, but I'm building 6 relationships. I see 6 opportunities here. And maybe it's not all 6. Maybe there is one hard no where you just decide it's never. And that's certainly a part of it. And with time and experience, we get better as business owners. We get better at discerning when those moments are. But certainly there are those interactions where at the end of the day you can value all your time because you're not just analyzing it under the guise of, well, I got a yes or I got a no. It's value all of the time that you spent.

Yeah, I mean, I think the biggest part of it is, is also then what I want to take away that I had there is the mindset of, okay, sure, there's going to be a couple people that are going to be hard-nosed and you're going to say no, it's not the right fit for whatever it is that we're selling at all, and it's probably not going to be for some period of time. But the— at the end of the day, we see that as an opportunity. So it's almost a, okay, you've told me no, but it's no, not right now, not necessarily no forever. And so that in and of itself is a mindset to then, how do then I approach this lead on a regular basis? And so that I can then ultimately convert them into a paying client at some point in the future. Richard, what's the next step that we take?

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Well, that's a pretty wide-ranging question there, Bradley. The next step we take when, when somebody says no to us, you mean, or what?

Yeah.

Yes.

Yeah.

Okay. The first thing is a lot of people act like when they— when somebody gives them a no, that they've just handled them. Handed them a rattlesnake. You know, it's like, they're like, oh, I don't want this. And, you know, get this thing away from me. So, you know, so the first thing is you have to understand that if, if you push back on the no, then the person you're trying to sell to is going to push back on you. And the last thing you want to do is create distance between yourself and the person you're trying to sell to. You want to narrow the gap, right? You don't want to push. So the first thing we tell people is that when you hear the word no, the first thing you have to think is, great, I've just been given a gift. You know, I've— they've given me this gift. And what I need to do now is I need to unwrap it. And I need to find out what's in this, you know, beautifully little wrapped gift box. Because in there somewhere is, is, you know, something that's going to help you build the relationship, and eventually, you know, eventually make a sale or achieve whatever goal that you want. You know, at worst, it's a fruitcake that you get at Christmas, right? But it's not a rattlesnake. And so, you know, and so we just say, you know, respond positively. When somebody says no to me, I go like, oh, absolutely, I understand completely. Because that's not what they expect. They expect you to go like, oh, wait a sec, wait a second, I don't understand. But, you know, they kind of like dig in like, absolutely. And immediately, right, the pressure's relieved. And the person's like, oh good, they're not gonna fight me on this. And then you've opened the door to be able to say, but so that I understand why you're saying no, because it really sounded like the right product at the right time at the right price. I'm just curious what's causing you to say no. And so diffuse it, react, you know, react positively and then unwrap the gift. So what is it? What did they just give you? And so that's probably one of the key pieces of advice that we, that we offer people.

Yeah, and I just want to layer on to that as well. It's, it's funny that it's kind of like going through a maze, I think, where— and this is why we talk about how sales is both art and science. And a lot of people do want the process. They want some— they want concrete steps. And so We have, I guess, throughout the book, you can sense those themes. So it's stay engaged and don't react badly, see it as a gift, change your mindset, change your response. But it's almost like a maze that we're asking readers to walk through and say, when you encounter rejection, you need to reach into this grab bag and you need to walk through the maze and you need to find those things that resonate with you and so that you can see what you're doing. In fact, I think, I think that sometimes people will see this book and think when they say no, oh, they're going to give me all, you know, 3,000 different kinds of rejections that are possible out there, right? There's so many ways that people can tell you no, but instead these are the 45, 41, um, reactions, responses, and so it's up to each individual person to figure out what the path is for them in that maze and to kind of pick and choose what their steps are. In fact, like one of them, for example, is listen. When you get a no, listen, and oftentimes we, so we coach people, reflect back. Are you really listening to what your prospect, what your customer is telling you? Or are you just out there and you're just, you're spitting out facts and figures and you're sharing features and benefits or you're pitching and you're not really listening. And so you're getting a lot of nos and maybe your issue is you need to stop and listen. So I think for us, hopefully, as much as I think process is important. What I'm hoping is people will look through this— I'm using a lot of analogies. I'm going from maze to recipe book. I'm now jumping on the recipe book. Okay, use it as a recipe book for, okay, here's what hap— here's what I'm doing. And you know what? I'm not listening. I'm not listening the way I should. And so hopefully people will kind of use it in that fashion.

Well, I, I like metaphors and analogies myself, and so it's good. It helps me to be able to— maybe it's my Simplistic brain needs that to be able to associate something completely separate to this and to anything, really. So I actually love the metaphors. I'm curious, Andrea, I've heard this before. You know, people can pick up on your commission breath, right? And so if you're trying to sell something, there's already the person's on the back— on their back foot just a little bit. I also heard that instead of maybe within the past year or so. And I love sales, but I'd never really heard this. Instead of pushing to get the person to buy, getting them to decide. In other words, decide yes or no. And then at that point, Andrea, it's okay, it's a no, not today. Now this is a gift, as Richard was sharing with me earlier. Now what am I going to do with that gift? Your thoughts on those two things, commission breath, and then pushing people to make a decision? Because it feels like I can deal with a yes, clearly. I can deal with a no, but I can't deal with a, I don't really know where this stands.

Yeah, absolutely. So commission breath, that reminds me of one of our topics in the book, which is when they say no, don't be desperate. And nobody, and this is again, you kind of have to back into these things sometimes and say, all right, if I'm getting nos, Am I coming across as desperate? And when we're desperate and needy, it's just people, they sense it a mile away and they get very hesitant because what you start to realize is this person wants to make a sale regardless of what I think, what I care about, what my needs are. They're just in it for themselves. And in fact, we actually have a framework in the beginning of the book where we talk about 4 different selling styles. And we do a little bit of a, a short analysis of each of those based on how they interact with customers and how much they care about relationships and how much they care about results. So that's, that's kind of a side issue. But back to the commission breath thing, you know, not being desperate is obviously a huge issue. And so if you're going after people and, and that's how you're coming across, It's just a huge, a huge turnoff. And then the other thing, what was the second thing? And it's funny, I had a thought to it.

The second piece was pushing people to decide.

Yes, pushing people. I love the idea. And I was talking to somebody a few months ago and he said, yeah, he said, I collect decisions, right? All we're doing is we're a collector of decisions. And I love that because It takes the process from being an emotional one to being very objective. And that's ultimately what we want people to do is we want them to come to the best decision and we aren't trying to push people into a yes. In fact, we, we almost want to empower them and make them, uh, well, not almost want to empower them. We do want to empower them to feel like they can say no. Like, you know, it— everybody knows they don't need permission to say no. We all know that as the buyer, we have the power to say no, but sometimes we don't because we don't know what that sales— how that salesperson is going to react, and we don't want them to feel bad. And so when you express in certain terms, hey, if this is a no for you, if this isn't If this isn't something you want, if, if this is bad timing, please feel free to tell me no now. I'll save you a lot of time, save me a lot of time. It's a win-win. And when you do that, people automatically lose that stress and they're far more open to hear what you have to say. And then that's how you can collect that decision. So there's a tremendous amount of power in having— giving people, reminding them about the freedom they have to say no.

Yeah. Let me— oh, I'm sorry. I just want to add something real quick, Richard, if it's okay on that point, because I can absolutely relate 100%. I'll give you a very real example. I was down to 2 vendors of a company that I was going to work with. This was a very big investment to the tune of $70,000 a year. Okay. So this is, this is a big decision. And so, and who was I going to work with? I mean, one was $70,000 and one was less than that, but $40,000. Okay. So I mean, somewhere in there. And interestingly, it's not— it wasn't just a price thing. It really wasn't just, oh, I'm going with the one that's $40,000. No, no, no. I'm going with the one at $70,000. And this is a vendor. So I'm— it was truly— I narrowed it down from a really wide amount of people, got it down to around 5. We spoke to them, got it down to these, uh, 2 pretty quickly. I spent a lot of time on the phone with them, a lot of back and forth. And, uh, I now have made my decision. And so the other one I've got to send a message to and say we've gone a different direction. And I am procrastinating on that. I'm procrastinating on that for that very reason that I'm actually going to be telling them no. And I thought Oh, you know, this is going to suck to have to do that. And so maybe it's the amount of the sale for them. I, I don't really know. But, but really, it is to your point, Andrea, that it's not that they haven't made me uncomfortable to say no, it's just that maybe I feel awkward in doing so. So I can absolutely relate to that. Now, depending on what the purchase amount is, it's a lot easier for somebody to say no. Like, if you go to Panera Bread and they say, hey, do you want to 99-cent pastry item, you'll be like, no, I'm good, right? It's no big deal to say no, but depending on what it is, it may be a little bit different, more difficult. So, Richard, sorry, I just wanted to add that context.

That's—

no, I was just— yeah, Andrea just reminded me as she was talking about, about a month ago we had a couple of young kids knock on the door at our house. And I say young kids, they, you know, anybody under 40, they were in their 20s. Yes. Anybody under 40 is a young kid to me now. And children, it was very clear one was the supervisor, the other one was the trainee. And they had been trained through their scripting to follow the script so rigidly. And it was very clear that the script was designed to avoid the word no. And it made the conversation almost so impossible. I mean, they started out with, you know, hi, good morning. My name's Jonathan, and this is— I forget the name. This is Bob. And what's your name? I'm like, my name is Richard. Richard. Well, anyway, it is a beautiful morning to be here in your neighborhood. This is a beautiful neighborhood, isn't it? So now they're trying to get me to say yes. Yes, it's a beautiful neighborhood. I live here. I'm not going to say it's a horrible neighborhood. So yes, we have a beautiful neighborhood. Thank you. Thank you for the compliment. And I would just like to ask you now, would you like to save money on your electric bill? Okay, so what am I supposed to say? No, I don't wanna save money. So now I'm already irritated, right? Because I'm like, so what, you know, what is, so anyway, it's a series of 4 or 5 questions that are all, and if we could tell you a way that, you know, that you could save 41% and if we could show you a way that this and show you a way that that, You would be interested in that, wouldn't you? You know, so now they've got me saying yes 5 times, but I'm so irritated because we're a minute in. I don't know what they're trying to sell. They're obviously trying to sell something and their avoidance of the word no is actually working against them because now I just can't wait to say no to whatever it is. And so then they ask the question that they should have asked in the very beginning. It's, hi, how are you? My name's Bob. This is Mary. We're in your neighborhood today and we're wondering, have you ever considered solar? I mean, that's the question. And, you know, I'm going to say yes or no and it doesn't matter. They can keep going. I can say, no, I haven't. Well, would you mind if I took 60 seconds of your time to give you 3 reasons why solar might be a good investment for you? And if at the end of, at the end of 60 seconds you don't think solar's up your alley, just tell me no and we'll move along. So now I'd be like, okay, fine. You've given me permission to say no. You're not avoiding the no. And now I'm listening, you know, with, with an open mind. I'm not irritated at it. And this science of process following that someone came up with these scripts to where you've gotta get the customer saying yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. And then, and then like they could ask you the next question, which is, so you're willing to invest $65,000 in solar, right? And somehow because you've got me saying yes, I'm going to say yes again. I mean, it's Ridiculous. Now, had they just asked me, have you considered solar? Would you like to hear? And I'd said no and no. They could have said, okay, thank you very much. They could have turned to be next door, onto the next prospect. And then maybe onto the next prospect and onto the next prospect. And they'd hit one who wants to buy.

Yeah.

But instead they're delaying the process because they're trying to avoid the no so, so desperately. They actually lose, lose, they waste time and increase the nos they hear.

I know exactly what you're talking about. I think I've talked on the episode before. I had, uh, someone similar. It wasn't a manager, but it came in and he was selling pest control services. And ironically enough, ironically enough, we just had some roaches within like last 24-48 hours. And I'm thinking to myself, if this, if this person finds out my need and then tailors the entire presentation to that, then we'd be good. So for instance, he said, do you ever see spiders? No. Do you ever see this? No. But we didn't— he didn't tailor it to what I was saying, and it never, and it never went, and it was a terrible presentation for that reason. Have you read, um, uh, Never Split the Difference by Chris Voss?

So I, yes, and I was just going to bring that up, how he talks about getting the counterfeit yes. Yes. And how when you force people into these kind of yes-oriented questions, they see them a mile away like Richard did. Especially if you, you know, all of us are consumers, all of us are buyers. So if you've been on the planet, you know, for a while, spending your money and buying. You see it a mile away, and that is what throws up your resistance. That is what has you— and so we actually mentioned Chris Voss's book in our book.

Oh yeah, um, I, I, one, I mean, there's a lot of takeaways from that book. That's a great book for people to, to pick up if they haven't. But one thing that really stood out to me was that was similar to the philosophy, very similar to Go for No, but it was that I've used it. Would you be opposed? And so the idea is that we want them to say, no, I wouldn't be opposed. No, I wouldn't be opposed. So I've actually sent that in text messages to people. Would you be opposed to hopping on a call this week? Right. And so the idea is that it's actually inviting the no. And they say, no, I'm not opposed to that. Or would you be opposed to you know, taking a look at this program or whatever that may be. And so that's really kind of stood out. Uh, Richard, I want to go— what is a couple of— I mean, you have 41 practical tips, and I love taking things from high level to eye level and say like, all right, here's the big philosophy, but then here, here is a takeaway. Here's something that you can use. Obviously you've already given several of those— don't be desperate, look at it as a gift. What's a couple of the other practical tips that you give in the book, some of the 41 that people could implement right away?

Right. Well, one of the 41 things we talked about is that when they say no, and in particular, we're talking about when you're getting a lot of people saying no to you, your problem may not be closing, your problem may be opening. And that is something that's really overlooked in the world of sales. You know, you go to the bookstore, and go to the shelf on sales books and you're going to see, you know, ABC, Always Be Closing, The Secrets of Closing the Sale, Close Early, Close Often, Close, Close, Close. I mean, it's closing, closing, closing, closing, closing. I defy anybody to find a book on the shelf that says how to open the sale. Now, it might be a chapter in a book. It might be covered, you know, here or there. But opening the sale is as big, if not more important, than closing the sale. You know, to say that closing the sale is the most important part of the selling process is, you know, it's kind of like saying putting is the most important part of golf. You know, if you can't putt, you can't win. As if driving and chipping, you know, does— it doesn't get you 90% of the way there. Well, opening a sale is really a craft in and of itself. You know, the ability to put people at ease, the ability to make small talk, the ability to gather information. As Andrea mentioned, listening, listen to the answers, right? Acting as a consultant. That's what a consultant does. You ask questions, you gather the information, and then you review the answers. Well, that's all part of the way a sale should open. And so when you're hearing no a lot, we get this feeling like, man, if I just had another couple closes, boy, if I could, you know, maybe there's, oh, that, what about that doorknob close? That's right. That's the Columbo, isn't it? Well, I got to say fine, I get to the door and then I turn around and go, wait, before I leave, and I'm gonna use the doorknob close. It's like, wait a second, maybe your problem started 20 minutes ago. Maybe you didn't even— maybe you didn't need to ask. Maybe none of this is your issue. And so if you're having trouble closing the sale, I would say in most cases, in many cases, it's because you have not structured the sale properly from the beginning to be able to come in as a friend rather than an adversary, to be able to get on the quote, same side of the desk. You know, a lot of times we think it's like we're on opposite sides. You're over there. Representing your interest or your company. I'm over here representing my interest and my company. Well, wouldn't it be better if I could find a way to psychologically get to where we're both on the same side? Because that's all part of opening a sale properly. And so that's one of the things. And I got to tell you, we could have written a whole book. We could have done the whole 120 pages on, you know, how to open a sale. But at a minimum, we want to start getting people thinking about the fact that this selling process isn't just about asking great closing questions.

And also, to kind of go back to your example, Bradley, of the guy asking you those closed-ended questions like, do you have spiders? Do you have this? Do you have that? Alexandra Carter, who wrote a book called Ask for More, which is a book on negotiation, and she's a Columbia Law professor. She's amazing, just got amazing accolades, and her book's really good too. And she says that the best question that you can ask— and I wish we had included her in the book, actually. Well, we'll have to just mention this on podcast from now on. But, you know, her best question is, "Tell me." She says that's— those are the two words that you should throw on the front of any question. So it should be just, "Tell me what's going on in your house. Tell me about your bug, insect, and rodent problems." And then it's just open, right? And you can gather all the information. And so tell me, and tell me works in any situation. So it works even if this is a situation of communication with a family member or a coworker or whatever, gather information by asking, tell me.

Yeah, that's just opening.

Yeah, that is opening.

Well, two things. Number one, I think we just actually teed up your third book. So Richard, go ahead and start putting it together. We don't need it to go 22 years, okay? Or 23. We need, we need that. We need that book. I completely agree. I'm not just saying this because you guys are on the podcast. I think that there is a lot of resources out there around, and I'm a golfer too, so I really like the golf analogy. There's a lot of resources out there around the proper ways to then get to the place where you've made your pitch, you've gone through it, and now it's time to ask for the sale and close. I completely agree with that. I just reviewed this morning, no joke, a 64, 64-slide deck of one of my clients who was being pitched something that's in the tune of $40,000 or $50,000. It's a marketing agreement for his window and door company. And so, and it was really detailed. They did a really nice job. Now, 90% of it is templated. About 10% of it was custom to him, but they did a fantastic job. And they're asking for that big of a sale. They needed to do a dag gum good job, and they did. Well, then you got to the end and it's the pitch, and you can— I could play around in my head about what they were actually saying on that call. I wasn't on that call, but I could certainly see that. But to the point of, yeah, but how did they get to that place? How did they open it to then start opening that door to get to a place where they're asking for— I don't care if it's a $5,000 product, right? If you're selling insurance or something, you know, selling insurance or selling a $50,000 marketing engagement, the end of the day, they opened it. You know, in a really, really good way. And I agree with you. I think there's not enough said about that. And so when we see it, when it's done really poorly, we're like, come on, man, get on with it. What are you selling? Oh, you're selling solar panels? Not interested. Right? You're selling pest control. What are you even selling? I need to know kind of really quickly, what do you do and what are you selling? So then I can at least frame it into, you know, where, what it is we're going to be possibly talking about. Because when they say, Yeah, the weather's great. Yes, you know, I'm wearing an Auburn shirt. Yes, I'm an Auburn fan. Yes, they've got a new coach. And it's like, we can talk about that as we build some rapport, that's fine. But I need to kind of— what do— what do— what are we talking about here? So I, I think that that's huge. The second thing is, is I would tell you that, um, the tell me— you know, I didn't say it on this podcast because we had already, uh, did it on your previous one. But the very first question we always ask on our Monday interviews is, tell us your background and origin story. So it is to your point, Andrea, of like, tell us your story. Like, how did you guys get to where you are today? So those two things really stood out to me. Andrea, any other— that was an awesome one, Richard. Any other specific kind of practical thing you think would be good for us to share today?

Yeah, let's see. Let me think of something practical because So, you know, a lot of it is, is mindset-oriented. This is kind of, this is kind of both. It's mindset-oriented, but it's also very practical. And that is, what do you do when you are discouraged and you're really feeling down and demotivated? And we get asked all the time like, well, if I'm going to get a bunch of nos and I'm hearing all these nos, or even one big deal that you were counting on that you thought you were going to get, and then it turns out to be a no. And it's because Bradley emailed you and said he wasn't going forward with your deal. So here's how I would coach your client or your person who didn't get your business. And I would say change your state. So Tony Robbins always says physiology matters, right? And so sometimes if you get that no and you don't know how to kind of shake it, you need to change your state. You need to move. You need to go to the gym. You need to go for a walk. You need to get out from behind your desk. Don't jump on social media and start scrolling through Instagram or whatever, because that'll just depress you even further. And that changing of state goes a long way. Play some music because that is a huge state changer. Play your favorite. Well, for me, it's '80s throwback new wave or whatever, or your favorite rock songs to get you just in a different state of mind. So you have that break so that when you come back— and it doesn't mean to say, like, you know, I hate to be— I tell Richard sometimes I feel like sometimes I'm the toxic positivity woman. Like, I'm always like, no, everything's great, let's stay positive. And sometimes you have to have that little quick pity party and you can feel down and you want to, you want to feel those feelings, but you can't stay there. And so I, I just really like the change your state advice because I feel that it is practical and we all have those times where we get those nos and they're, and it hits us really hard.

Yeah, no, it does. There is a, Tony Robbins talks about state and then a book that I read years ago In fact, I actually wrote it down. I'm going to try to get her to come on the podcast. But Amy Cuddy's book Presence, yes, um, uh, I think is a really good, good one on that where she takes it, takes a deep dive into that. She has a really good TED Talk actually too. I think was at one time was in the top 20 TED Talks. Um, well, congratulations on your next book. And Richard, I'm looking for book number 3, okay? We need the opening, all right? That, that happened on this podcast. So I'm excited to have you back on whenever you write that one. But obviously people are going to be excited to pick up the book. Congratulations on the release of this one, When They Say No: The Definitive Guide to Handling Rejection in Sales. Where can people go? Where would you like to point them to?

Yeah, they can jump on Amazon, just search for When They Say No. I'm sure it'll pop right up and hopefully they'll really enjoy it. It's only 115 pages, so it's a short, easy read. And think of it like a recipe book or a maze. Or a maze. I don't have to nail down these analogies here.

Yeah, we're going to have to work on our analogies.

Too many.

No, it's all good. It's all good. I'll go for the golf analogies for sure.

Either way.

Okay. Yes.

All right. Appreciate y'all. Hope to have you back on in the future. Couple things stood out to me on that episode. Number one, is the mindset of is it's a gift to get those rejections, get those nos. Number 2, the importance of opening the sale. We talked about that at the very end. And then number 3, I love the idea of— I'd mentioned around collecting the, uh, really around pushing someone to, to decide and never thought about it of collecting decisions. And so I took a note for that, put that in my Notion to where I'm going to have kind of an ongoing note to myself of things to update, things to go into playbooks, et cetera. And that's one I added for sure is the mindset of collect. We're collecting decisions. And then I'll just throw in a bonus one. Whenever they mentioned about tell me, tell me, and having it much better of an open-ended question for your prospects. So those were my big T, my So those were my big key takeaways. Hey, thank you to our podcast sponsors that allow these guests like Richard and Andrea to be able to come on to serve all of you. Autopilot Recruiting, Coach P Consulting, DirectClicks, and Club Capital. They are the best in the business. If you want to be able to bring on A-players, reach out to the team at Autopilot Recruiting. They will take that off of you on a daily, weekly basis to be able to help you to grow your business with the right people on your team. Go to Autopilot Recruiting and make sure you let them know that you heard about them on the Club Capital Leadership Podcast. When you have a sales team, you want to be able to have them with— have great leads that you're getting a good return on your ad spend, or ROAS, as you may have heard me say before. And to do that, you want to work with someone that knows your business and knows what they're going to be optimizing for. There's so many different competitors in that space. You want somebody that's going to give you exclusivity, it's going to get to know your business and your goals and the things that you're trying to accomplish. And that's where DirectClicks comes in. Go to directclicksinc.com. When it's time to manage your finances, there's none better in the business than Club Capital. Go to club.capital and book a no-obligation demo. It's so important, you know, to develop your team Well, that's— if you want to know exactly how David is getting it done, 3 different offices, a huge team, what is ongoing training and development twice a week, you'll get a peek behind the scenes and he'll give you the swipe files, the templates, the word tracks that they're using to be able to grow their business at the level they have. Go to coachpconsulting.com and let David know and he'll give you your entire first month off. Art of One, that was a great episode. Glad to have them back on. Till next time, lead well.