Episode 226: Fireside Chat - How To Grow Your Business by Growing Yourself with Dr. Bhrett McCabe

So the big question is this: how do small business owners like us grow our leadership, develop our teams, and scale our business in a way that allows us to get our products and services out to the world yet still remain profitable? That is the question, and this podcast will give you the answers. I'm Bradley Hamner, and this is the Club Capital Leadership Podcast. Welcome to The Bottom Line, a new weekly podcast series that we drop every Thursday to complement our weekly Monday podcast interviews with industry leaders. These podcasts are going to be designed to give you short, impactful, and value-driven information that you can start using right away in your business. I value your time and attention and will do my very best not to waste it. Just get what you need and go. So with that, let's get into today's episode. Welcome to another episode of the Club Capital Leadership Podcast. My name is Bradley Hamner, your host. Today's episode, we have a recast of an episode I did with Dr. Brett McCabe.

He is a sports psychologist.

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Thanks for having me.

Absolutely, Dr. McCabe. Definitely a pleasure for sure.

All right. So you're a 2-time national champion baseball player at LSU. I know sports has been a big part of your life, but how did you go from playing baseball at LSU to doing what you do today with consulting with businesses and high-level athletes and collegiate athletes all around the country? Just give us a little bit about your background and your origin story.

Yeah, you know, it was kind of, I would say, serendipitous. I mean, it was not something that I went out searching to do. I think it was— I think like most of our things that we do in our lives and our business, things just kind of fell into place and I was at the right place at the right time with maybe the right solution. When I got done playing ball, I did my PhD in clinical psychology and stayed at LSU to do that. But I always loved team dynamics, and I always loved working with organizations. And even if I was in the medical settings as a psychologist, I would work within team dynamics. And I went up to Rhode Island to do my internship at Brown. And there was an advisor that we had there that would come in and teach, and he did a little bit of business consulting. And I was very fascinated by what he did. And I would talk to him about things and bounce ideas off of him. My mentor up there knew that I didn't want to be in the traditional academic route or traditional private practice route. I was kind of an outside-the-box thinker. And so an opportunity arose to go work for Merck Research Laboratories in Philadelphia, and I did that. And then I got homesick living in the Northeast. I wanted to come back to the Southeast and took a job with another pharmaceutical company that was field-based, which was something I wanted to do, which was to support on the medical side, the research side, the education side out in the field. And I covered a bunch of different states. And so I had a lot of flexibility. And the way that our business worked was if you did your job, then a lot of times there were things that you could do on the side. Most of us were providers or pharmacists or psychologists or physicians. So you would have other things going on. And my advisor or my boss at the time was encouraging me to do things working with athletes and stuff like that because our job is you're only as good as the drug you're on. And those drugs only have a life cycle, so you always have to have things kicking on the side. And I just started helping people out in golf. People would come to me and say, hey, look, I know you're a psychologist, I know you played ball, can you help my kid out? And I started doing that, and those kids started growing and getting better and better and more successful. And then I was like, shoot, I got to start charging for this. And then I started charging, and then it just kept growing, and the exposure got bigger and bigger, you know. And then businesses— I took— when I left the pharmaceutical company, I I'd go back and work and consult with other pharmaceutical companies and other businesses because I developed a program within the pharmaceutical company that was based on human psychology and the psychology of change and resistance and started educating leaders and business owners on how to deal with employees, customers, manufacturers, and all that based on the psychological principles behind it. When I did it in the pharmaceutical company, it was the largest ROI in the history of our company. And so, I had a little bit of that experience to say, "Hey, look, if you want me to help your team how to communicate from a psychological foundation," And business owners were like, "Heck yeah!" And so that just grew to the point where I was doing that more often. And then kind of what happened was there was a transitional phase where my sports started picking up so much more that I just kind of gravitated back over to that versus hunting business. I still consult with businesses. I still consult with sales organizations and leadership teams. But mostly, I'm known for the work I do in golf and other sports. Wow!

Thank you very much for sharing that. Now, I definitely realize that this is going to be a loaded question, but how do you get more out of people, especially people that you're leading, especially when you don't have 85 people on the roster and you can't just not play them?

Yeah, well, I wish I had the answer. I was not the best boss. My wife would actually be responsible for leading our team in the office, but I struggled with it personally because I struggled with individuals who didn't want to have the same ideals and goals that I did. I forget that some people take jobs because it pays the bills versus this is going to be my human fulfillment. Right? I'm doing this in my job, in my company, because it's my fulfillment. It's what I want to do. And the, the income is nice to support my family, but I'm going to be thinking about it at 9 o'clock at night. And I struggled with people who at 5:30 had already checked out at 4:55 because they wanted to get home. And I think it was really difficult for me to do that because I kind of would go into it with the attitude of, look, people will take care of it. They'll do it. My wife comes from it as a nurse manager. And if you've ever been around nurses, there's one way you do things. And you do it very, very consistently, and you do it at a certain level. And so it caused us a little problems in the business because she was very direct and I was very hands-off. I'd get burned like crazy because people wouldn't do, you know, deadlines became suggested, and she would come in behind with very hardcore deadlines of like, we're trying to run a business here. So I answer this in full disclosure to say, I don't really enjoy leading people. When it comes down to, hey, did you fill out your vacation request forms? That kind of stuff. I don't enjoy that. That was hard for me because I was never raised that way. I was raised that you get there before your boss shows up, you leave after your boss leaves, and you work harder than your bosses. What I found is businesses today, you know, when I was raised, my dad was the type of, when you show up, my mom was the same way, if you show up, you ask, what can I do to help you today? But our generation today isn't asking that of the boss. They're asking the boss, what can you do for me today? That's a major difference. And so how do you lead people? You lead people because what I have found in this is you got to know they're asking, what can you do for me today? I mean, listen, I've had complaints that I didn't have enough Keurigs in my coffee room. People don't realize that it's a small business, man. I'm on a shoestring budget here. But what you have to do is if you want to lead people, you have to connect to them first and foremost. You have to know what motivates those people. You must know what motivates them. What do they want? What are they looking for? And help build something that helps them realize and achieve what they're striving for. Because if you miss on that, they're not going to engage. They're not doing it for sheer compliance anymore. Because if they're not connected to you as a leader, and they can't feel your vision, they're not going to automatically buy into it. They don't walk by a thing on the wall and say, "We want to be the greatest XYZ there is." If they're not buying into the, if it's paying their bills, and it's a means to an end, because, hey, and sometimes it's OK. You know, look, I've had employees that they take the jobs, and I've worked with companies where they take the job because it allows them to be a baseball coach on the side for their kids' games. That's their passion. So if you know that's their passion, then help feed that within the business, right? And so you've got to connect to the people first. And if you can connect to find what makes them motivated, what makes them human, what makes them, what are their fears, their doubts, their insecurities, not to manipulate them, but instead to help navigate it with them and be a part of their journey, I think you can get there.

I have to tell you, I think it's very refreshing. I think a lot of people hear what you just said about, "I don't really enjoy the leading part of it." And it feels freeing for you to say that, because there's a lot of people listening to this podcast that feel the exact same way, but they just don't want to actually admit that. They're incredible salespeople. Most of the people listening to this podcast are incredible salespeople, but they don't really enjoy the part of leading in their agencies. And you know insurance agents very well. I mean, your office at one time was right next to one. You've worked with insurance agents across the country quite often, so you know what is going on in a lot of these offices. And a lot of them do have sports and athletic backgrounds where they were the star on their team, and then they're the star producer in their office. And it's hard for them to transition from being that all-star player to a Hall of Fame coach.

Well, and even more than that too is, don't forget that if you're in insurance, wealth management, it's hard. There's a lot of nos, there's a lot of shut doors, there's a lot of barriers you have to break through. And once you get to a certain level of comfort, it's really hard to push to the next level of producer. And what I have found in the insurance and in the wealth management side of life is that you guys are the star producers, no doubt about it. You have the connections. And so we have to look at where do you make your money? Where do you succeed at? If it's day-to-day management inside the office, we're taking away the greatest skill set that you have, which is front-facing customers and harvesting customers and managing their incomes. So if you're dealing with the HR stuff, that's taking you away from what you do your best. But we also have to be honest too, is once you get to a certain level of comfort and success, The next mountain peak is the hardest one because now you're comfortable. But what it takes from a sacrifice to achieve that next level of wealth, that next level of success requires you to give up some of the comforts. And I've worked with a lot of wealth managers and a lot of insurance agents who have their lake house, or they play golf every Thursday and Friday afternoon, and they love it because it gives them that flexibility. But what happens is the more they're away from their production, the more they try to push their production back onto the people in their team. Who are not as motivated, don't have the same motivations, don't have the same skill sets, what happens? It becomes a mismatch. And so frustration arises. I had a consultant tell me a long time ago, the lead singer of a band doesn't go out and make sure the music is pointed in the right direction. But when they walk out on stage, they have to know that the music is pointed where they want it. They have to understand the role of everybody in that organization. And for many of us that are— and I'm the same way; I'm the business development guy. If I'm stuck in my office seeing clients, 15 hours a day I'm not developing business because I've got to be able to develop it and service it. Sales agents, wealth managers, leaders of insurance companies, we're all the same. You're the business development and also the business servicer to a lot of degree. When it's hitting the fan in a person's life, they don't want to talk to your associate, they want to talk to you. And you have to have the plan to allocate your time and your resources to be able to be that person. So, if we take a football approach, Nick Saban is the best college football coach to ever coach the game, in my opinion. And he is a defensive wizard and genius, but he's not in charge of the defense. He's empowered one person, but he still has oversight. But he has to go do other things too while his coaches are still working. Now he has a unique environment. People want to come work for him because of their advancement in their lives. So he has a currency exchange. You come work for Coach Saban, you're going to move on to your next job, and you're going to have the pedigree. So you have to— people want. So you look at that and you say, OK, Nick, Coach Saban's best— yes, he doesn't love probably going to the quarterback clubs, but he does it to build business, to build relationships. He's good at it. He's really good at it. He probably doesn't enjoy recruiting, but he's really good at it. And so what you have to understand is what are you really good at and where can you make the biggest impact on your business? Then from that, backfill with people who are specialists in those areas. Don't try to cross-train somebody into that. If you're like, "Look, I need somebody who is the best on the phone, dealing with people in crisis," then you better find somebody. And this is the hard part. And this is the part that I struggled with. You need to hire people, and if they're not the right people, wish them well and move them on. I would keep people way too long, and then it would make it miserable in the— because we knew they weren't the right person, and I'm doing them a disservice. Pay them 4 months and say, "Thank you so much. It's just not a good fit. I'll write you a wonderful rec, but the position that I have for you is not a good match for you." And if you can't cross them into something else in your business, then you just say, thank you, it's not working, and go find the right people. Because you can't make a dog a cat. You can't make a cat a dog. You got to be willing to find the right people.

That's so good. That's so good. So that's actually a great transition I want to ask you about. We're recording this the week after Dustin Johnson's historic win at the Masters. He shoots 20 under par. He's leading by 4 going into the final round. He, I think, ties for the low round on Sunday. He extends his lead, wins by 5. So he breaks a record at the Masters, and obviously he's emotional for the win, etc. But there's an upper limit problem. Whenever you and I are playing golf, sometimes if we're 1, 2 under par, we just want to get it in the house. And he pushes past that, wins the tournament, wins by 5, sets a record, etc. Can you just talk to us about the importance of busting through that upper limit problem and having a high performance mindset?

Yeah, it's one of the things that Dustin said was, "I wanted the record." So he changed the game. It wasn't just winning. He wanted to win with the record. That also tells me that he had pretty good control of his game. He knew what he was doing. He was willing to go deeper. But most of us are driven by our fears and our doubts, right? And we are much like goldfish. You buy a goldfish, you put them on a fishbowl on your desk. It's a 5-gallon fishbowl. That goldfish isn't going to jump outside of it. It's not going to break the bowl. It's not going to do anything. It's gonna swim around and be happy. And it's just gonna be thankful that it's being fed and has clean water. You put it in a bigger tank, it gets bigger, and it grows to the size of the boundaries it's placed in. We're the same way. So a lot of us look at success and say, "Yeah, I hope to get that one day. I like that." But then there's that goldfish bowl around us, constrains us with all the risks, the sacrifices, the uncommon things, the difficult things. And it's like, you know what? It's just comfortable where I'm at. But I want that. So what happens is it creates this angst that we have inside of us, which is like, I know I'm not fulfilling my potential. I know I'm not really having the success that I want. And I have a little regret over that because I'm allowing my fears and my doubts, my insecurities to keep me constrained. But we have to be willing to break our fishbowls and say, look, why can't I be the best? Like I gave a talk to, I think it was a large, a regional State Farm meeting a couple of years ago. And I asked the question, I said, every year you guys bring people up and do awards. If you're not sitting in this audience asking what it takes to get up here and be the highest producer, then why are you here?

Right?

Because there's a lot of people out there that will look and say, well, and I've heard this in the industry, well, they got a really good link with one person who just opened them up and they were a rainmaker. It's like the outsiders look at the successes of those that are successful and go, well, I mean, it was because of something or whatever. Nobody ever says, you know why that person is up there every year? Because I'm sure if you look at your top 10 producers, it's probably 7 or the same every year, and it's the same high-level producers. How many of you are listening to this have called those high-level producers and said, What are you doing? I want to know what you're doing. And most people in that position aren't going to say, I'm not telling you. Most people are going to say, come on, I'll show you. My coach won 5 national titles in 10 years, and he was asked to come in. He spoke many times, but one year he came in near the end of his career, and he had what was called the system. So I grew up playing a system. Coach Saban has the process. That's why I tend to fit in there pretty well, is that there's ways that you go about doing things that are not focused on the outcome but are contributing and you're doing things that you know are going to drive the outcome. OK, so we put all our energy on little things. And so he's going to give the talk to the American Baseball Coach Association. His competitors are out there. All the high school coaches are out there. It's a huge venue. And he gets up there and before he does, he gives the slides to his assistant coach, Mike Bianco, who's now the head baseball coach at Ole Miss. And Mike comes back to Coach and says, Coach, like, you gave them like everything. He goes, Don't you think we should kind of like take some of our stuff out? And Skip looked at him and said, Nah, 98% of them in the audience don't have the guts to do it. See, we could give you all the answers, but for the most of us, that fishbowl constrains us. Like, it's too hard. I'd rather—

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"Get in at 9:00. My first appointment's at 9:30. I'll kind of wing it," and so on, versus, "You know what? I'm gonna know my clients. I'm gonna be researched before I go in there. If my meeting starts at 9:00 in my office, I'm in the room at 8:45, and I've taken an agenda and distributed it 24 hours ahead of time." Because if you show up at 9:00 and everyone else shows up at 9:00, the meeting doesn't start till 9:10, because when you've handed out the agenda, everybody on the agenda is looking to see if their name is on it to see if there's any problems. And it's an inefficient meeting that has no follow-up, and then we live in this meeting all the time, right? So you have to do the uncommon things. You have to look at the details. Like, what are you doing as a follow-up? And I'll just say this, right? You can send a note out to everybody of your clients this year for their birthday. Okay. There's an automated process. Most of your clients know it's an automated process. But if you sent them a box that had something specific to them that you knew and remembered about them, that's a different thing. Takes an extra minute to highlight something that is truly personal and consistent to them. Now you've connected to them. If you know that things are coming up and you know that your business is— this is a time and you wanna have a rally stage, create it. But no the little things and get people out of their comfort zones and their constrictions. Because one thing that happens about that fishbowl is it just keeps getting smaller and smaller and shorter and shorter because as we get in our rhythms and we get in our comforts, it's like having an old pair of jeans. Yeah. It feels so good, but you don't want to put on that new pair because the new pair is going to kind of cut you off in the wrong spots.

That's so good.

Now here's a two-part question. People often talk about sports and business and use it as a metaphor. What can people learn about sports to apply to business, and what's completely separate, like completely different in sports and business?

Well, I think in sports the main difference is there are certain physical skill sets that we just can't replicate. I mean, you can be 7'2" and be a tremendous agent for State Farm, right? But if you're 7'2", you may not be the best offensive tackle, okay? It's hard to be an NBA player if you're 5'6". It's been done, but it's hard. So there's some physical attributes that are required to be great in sports. If you take a step back and you look at what I call the Success Formula— Success Formula is a 4-step approach about what we're doing. And the first one is that everybody has skills and talents, but even in business, we have to develop our skills and talents. Like, you've got to know your content, you got to know your products, you got to know what you're selling, you got to know how to sell, you need to know how to communicate, you need to do accounting, you need Those are skills and talent. It's really hard to wing it. So, you know, if I go into a restaurant and I'm meeting with a chef or I'm going to eat, I want them to know that they know how to cook a variety of different things. And they may have specialties, but they've got skills. So we have to take time every day to develop our skills and talents. And I think a lot of us rest on our laurels there in business. I think we think that, well, what I did 10 years ago should be working today. People don't do traditional marketing anymore. Ali and I were talking about this before. I mean, social marketing is so critical. I know you guys have limitations in the insurance agencies, but there are ways to do things. And there are things things that you can do. But social media, I mean, people, the traditional marketing agencies of developing a good brochure is out the door. Maybe billboards do work a little bit, but are you targeting people? Or one of the things I've always wondered is why don't we use content as the greatest marketing tool? You can put a great Glamour Shots picture up and look great and all this other stuff, but content is currency. So, if you give me great content that I can share with other people, that's a skill and talent. And so, whether it be writing or video or blogging or whatever it is, find a way to make your content worthwhile that gets you in front of your clients. Now, I know you have regulations and whatever, but I think we have to come to the 21st century too. Is you've got to be able to apply it under pressure. So you may have the skills and talent in the world, but if you can't apply it under pressure, it doesn't matter. And that's what I find with a lot of people in sports and businesses. They're all great in theory, but when it comes to the application, they suck. They're great practice players. They're not great in the heat of the moment. We got to get really, really great in the heat of the moment. When it's hitting the fan, when our butt's against the fire and all the other stuff, each of those factors are critical. And can you close the deal? Can you understand when you go into a meeting with somebody, when you've got to get them to say, "Well, let me just think about it." Well, how long are they going to think about it? I'm not talking about hard closing them. I'm talking about, do you have the skills to be able to answer the questions in the heat of the moment, not like it's coming off of a canned answer, but to be able to emotionally connect to somebody? The 3rd one is, do you have the psychological flexibility? And this is an adaptation from a guy in the field of psychology by the name of Stephen Hayes. And Stephen is a pioneer in our field because he talks about Acceptance and Commitment Therapy, which is so brilliant for what we do in today's world. But one of the most important cores of that is having psychological flexibility, the ability to psychologically adapt and adjust to any given situation in our lives. Things come and they go, they adjust. Or are you sitting there static in the corner going, it's not fair. They are better than me because they have better clients, they have a better call market, whatever. Like, one of the things that I do is when I would train individuals when I was in the pharmaceutical agency, and you'd fly to Tampa and your appointment would cancel on you, right? And that was the only reason you were going. And my colleagues would be so upset by that. And I was like, look, they canceled, they have something going on. But I guarantee you, if you're gracious about it and they're humble about it, they'll never forget, and they'll probably give you more time next time. Well, I can't believe I had to come all the way here. It's like, well, then it's a you thing, not a them thing. Right? The same with psychological flexibility. How many of us in our industry have changing regulations that we just don't agree with? Or corporate sets down new regulations that we're like, I just don't agree with this. They didn't ask you. Yeah, that's true. They didn't ask you. What they asked you was, can you respond to this? That's psychological flexibility. So it's the ability to adapt and adjust. And then the last factor of success is luck. It's randomness. So we're all in those situations where there's things that we just can't control. I mean, look, 2020.

Yeah.

Who would've ever expected this? But we've all adapted. When 9/11 happened, it took us completely out of left field, unfortunately. And it had changed the way we traveled. It changed the way we did things, right? And there were industries that were created. And what's happened now is we've gotten better on voice conferencing and video conferencing. People don't need to work in offices that much anymore. People have realized, well, it's going to flip back the other way. People are going to go back into office settings eventually. But it's one of those things where you've got to have the randomness to be able to respond to it. And knowing, what are people worried about right now from a business standpoint? Well, it's the same thing with sports, right? So to your question, Christopher, it's like, OK, how did we change? Well, college football games are being canceled on Thursdays, games on Saturdays. They're changing opponents, or they're talking about it. Which historically coaches would say, "No way, if I don't have my time to scout somebody." Now they're like, "Let's play. Let's go. Like, I want to play. I want to—" We're having to be more adaptable to the randomness of our world. So if you look at the differences between sports and life, success leaves clues. Well, it's not much difference, OK? If we go back to the players asking the coaches, "What can you do for me today?" which is very similar to what people in our offices do. And I think we have to be aware of What each person wants. How many people are in our team's ears too? Even in our team right now, I mean, I can't tell you the number of times I've heard somebody say, you know, "I've told my wife that they just need to go in there and talk to their boss about it." And it's like, but they're not a part of it. As business owners, we don't always understand why regulatory or compliance is doing what they're making us do in home office. That's the same way as our team doesn't really understand the decisions that we make. Why do we have to be there at 8 o'clock in the morning? I don't really start— my phone calls don't start till 9. So why can't I come in at 9 and leave at 4? They don't understand the intricacies of it.

Yeah, no, I think that's a great answer. So can you go over just real quick? I want to make sure that all of our listeners have captured your 4 things for the Success Formula.

Yes, skills and talent is first. How you apply those skills and talent under pressure is second. Being psychologically or mentally flexible to the changing demands around you is third. And the last one is dealing with randomness. The problem is most of us focus all of our attention on 1 and 4, and they ignore the middle. The middle is what separates greatness.

So I wasn't planning on asking this, but one of the things whenever you're talking about applying under pressure, and just to kind of use a golf— and also you being a pitcher— so Sunday Tiger made a 10 on the 12th hole, and he made a comment afterwards I thought was pretty profound. He said, hey, nobody's pulling you off, nobody's bringing a reliever in and taking you out, you have to push through it. And then he goes on and he finishes like a champion and birdies 4 of his last 5 holes or something to that effect. And it just made me think about too, I'm sure you've had that feeling being a pitcher on the mound and guy hits a home run, maybe a grand slam, and you have to watch him run around the bases with the team cheering and all those things. How do we apply that in our business whenever we are under pressure? Maybe, I mean, we're recording this, it's almost the end of the year. There's goals that need to be hit. We begin to sense that pressure. Obviously, we've still got a lot of COVID issues around, and we start having these doubts in our head about, well, I just don't think we can do it. I don't think we can actually finish it out. How do we actually transform those negative thoughts into something that's positive?

Well, you got to understand, the closer you are to the goal, the more the negative thoughts and doubts pick up. The thing that you really must understand is that the human mind's job is to protect you first and foremost. So the closer you are to something, it, it's kinda like when we used to watch Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom, right? The closer that he got to the prize possession, the more dangerous it got. That's what success is like. It's most dangerous on the top of Mount Everest, not at the base. People don't fall off the base of the mountain. And it's the same way with any kind of success. The closer we get, the more volatile it gets and the more at risk we are. And so as a result, the brain perceives that and knows that there's greater uncertainty the closer you are. It's easier to be Auburn football, where you're not really in the hunt every year, but it's close and, oh, next year we're going to get them. Then every once in a while you sneak up there and you get it. Okay. It's hard to be the team that's always in the hunt because there's more volatile. Fans feel more disappointment if you lose the national title game than if you lose the Liberty Bowl. There's more invested the closer you are. Padraig Harrington said something years ago that I thought was brilliant. He said that American golfers, they play for their best, and if they don't have it, they mail it in. And so what happens is they get in a week where they're in a tournament and they're in 2nd place and they're in 2nd all week, all week, all week, and then they fall back to 12th. They see that as a failure. The American player sees being in 20th all week and then shooting a final round 64, moving up to 5th as a success. And they were never once in the heat of the moment. Like they were never in the tasting and the stress and the chaos of being up at the final group in the final round. Well, that's the same way with us. You got to learn to deal with the doubts and negativity that pop in our head. Those doubts and negativity are nothing more than just threat detection systems by our brain. They're sending negative thoughts and doubts into our consciousness to say, "Be careful, be careful, be careful." So if you buy into them, you're like, "Oh my God, I shouldn't be thinking this." You're telling the brain, "Oh my God, you just hit something really, really scared, something really bad." And instead of going, "Hey, I'm at a spot where it's really risky. I'm at a spot where it's really hard. Let's do what we've trained to do and let's make a final push. We don't need to go reacting and changing to everything. Instead, let's try to get back to basics. Let's try to get back to what we're doing. Let's try to get, and let's push hard knowing that we have doubts and risks. I mean, the most volatile time of somebody to agree to a deal is right before they do it. That's when they have their greatest doubts. And then they have a little bit of the purchase guilt. And it's with everything, right? You're so excited when you buy a new car and then you go home and you're like, oh my gosh, should I have spent that money? It happens on everything. So, you have to understand the psychology of why people make those decisions and instead realize, to Tiger's point, there's nobody there who's coming to get you. Although, I disagree with one statement. There was never one time I was on the mound that I was begging for a reliever to come in to get me. And no pitcher leaves the mound and goes, well, phew, good. Somebody's coming in to help me. But golf is different. There's nowhere to hide. And in business, there's really nowhere to hide either.

Very profound. Thank you for sharing that. We've heard you talk about the 5 people that you need to have in your life, and I think our listeners would get a lot out of that. Can you elaborate on that, please?

I heard somebody say a long time ago that you're the average of the 5 people you put around you, and it makes a great meme, but I don't know if I actually agree with it because I can't control what they do. So I started thinking about it. I was like, well, great people have great people around them. And I've been very fortunate in my life to have people around me that were willing to be honest with me. But I also have people that I get something out of. And I don't mean that in a bad way, but every relationship is a give and a take. There's sometimes I'm giving more and there's sometimes I'm taking more. It just depends on where I'm at in my life. So I started thinking, I was like, what do I have around me? So to me, to be great, you gotta have 5 people in your life. You gotta have colleagues. Colleagues are people who are, and when I say people, I mean usually 1 or 2, but A colleague is somebody who, if you called them and said, "Hey, listen, I got a weird situation going on at work. I need your help," you don't feel like you're being judged. You don't feel like you're getting random advice. There's somebody who's walked the walk with you. And they're like, "Yeah, I've been there. God, I remember when that happened to me." OK? In psychology or medicine, those are our second opinions. You call them, and by ethics, we're supposed to do that. If we're outside of an area of comfort, we're supposed to pick up the phone and say, "Hey, "Bob, listen, I got a question. I gotta run something by you. I got this client," no identifying information, "but am I thinking about this right?" And our ethics board is often that colleague for us, even though most of us are stressed by it. But it's really, "Hey, I got this weird scenario. I just want to make sure it's OK." So you gotta have colleagues around you. You gotta have confidence builders. Confidence builder is the person who's like, when you're around them, you just feel like you're 10 feet tall and bulletproof. They make you feel good. They make you feel like what you're doing is right. They make you feel excited. They make you— sometimes it's our mom. But you get my point. The 3rd one is we need to have competitors. Now, sometimes your competitors don't really know you're competing with them, but we strive under competition. Forces us to push for more. If you've ever worked out with somebody in a joint workout, you're gonna push harder. If you know you're crushing them, it doesn't really do anything for you. But if it's somebody that makes you get outside your comfort zones and push, so you may have identified somebody in your region that you want to compete with. You don't need to call them and say, "Hey, I'm competing against you." But it's somebody that like, look, if they're in the office at 8, I'm in the office at 7:50. Okay? I'm always going to do a little bit better. Here in the state of Alabama, you have that natural competition between Auburn and Alabama. Neither would be great without each other. I really believe that because it forces everybody to be their best all the time. The fourth one is you got to have a critiquer and a challenger. Okay? The challenger is somebody who is not afraid to share with you the negative. They're not really there to pump you up. They're usually that mentor that is very frank, very honest, but is invested in your long-term growth. OK, maybe a business coach. It may be somebody who's like, look, what you're doing right there, if you continue to do this, you're going to have issues. OK, you're better than that, I believe. And they want to see you grow. On the other side of that is the critiquer. And the critiquer is kind of like hiring an editor. You really don't want them to tell you the writing is good. You just want them to make your writing better. OK, a critiquer is somebody, if you took Like one of the things I always wonder in insurance, wealth management is, do you ever take people with you that are critiquing the way you interact with clients? Or you just take— tells you did a great job? Because if you're only ever taking somebody tells you did a good job, you're gonna suck. You gotta take somebody who's like, look, I thought that was good, but X, Y, and Z'd it. Okay. You've gotta have somebody there with you who told you that was pretty poor. Like you couldn't answer the question. You weren't prepared for the answers, you didn't know their information. Like, why would they buy from you? Why would they trust you? And sometimes we have that as coaches is, if you look at a coaching staff, you may have a challenger on the coaching staff. You also have a critiquer who sits down with you and says, "Look, that's just not very good." Because you gotta understand who the client is, and you gotta learn how to match them.

I love that. I've never thought about that. I think a lot of our listeners are gonna hear you say that and think, that's a really good idea. Even if we brought in one of our team members to listen so that they could learn But to flip it around and for them to say, "Hey, how can I get better? Can you give me some feedback? Was that clear whenever I said that? Did I ask that question the right way?" I think that's really profound, actually.

In psychology, we do that. We film some of our sessions, and then you break it down. And what you realized was, and of course, the patient consent, but what you realized was that if somebody came in and was really depressed, your body language would shift in the chair. If they're anxious, you'd be on the front of the chair. And it wasn't about, "Hey, you should have asked this; you should have asked that," because sometimes that's just human experience of how you're going through stuff. But it's body language. It's how do you greet people? How do you interact with them? How are you prepared? I mean, to me, there's 4 types of clients. And it's based on level of knowledge in the content area and level of agreement with you. So if you think about it in a box matrix, on the left side is level of agreement, like they like you, and then level of knowledge. Do they know what you're talking about or not? Somebody who has high knowledge and high agreement with you is what I call an aligned customer. There. There's somebody that they've done their research. You can go in there and say, hey, look, I've got this vehicle, I've got this mechanism. Hey, have you seen the new Fed rule? They're reading Wall Street Journal as much as you are, and they like you, they trust you. They're the ones that you get the phone calls from. They're like, hey, listen, did you see the news coming out of the Fed? Hey, I just want to know your thought on this. Or, hey, listen, I met with my CPA and we're talking about this pension program and whatever. Okay, and you can be like, yeah, I like that, I don't like that. Those are easy. Those are our champions. Those are our good ones. And you can bring them information that challenges them, but they're not going anywhere. The opposite side of that, which is your person has very low knowledge and very low agreement with you, is what I call a Dismissive. You go in there, and they're the ones that are just stonewalling you like crazy. But you have to understand, they probably don't know what they're talking about. We see this a lot in political stuff, right? People retweet or restate what's the rumors on social media are. It's the same way in any kind of business, right? They know the one piece of information, but they don't know anything else. And they know that talking point, and they just keep saying it. And if you keep challenging them, because they don't like you to start off with, or they don't really want to meet with you, they're not open to change. You have to have the awareness to go, OK, Bob here, Bob and Mary, they don't really like me. They don't want to be in this appointment, and they're just giving me the answers. So I can keep pounding on them, but we're just going to continue to play head against each other all day long. Sometimes it's there, just take a step back and look on your bookshelf and go, "Hey, are you a big fan of Patterson?" I love Patterson books. And I'mma find a place to start building a relationship so they start liking me, so I can start educating them. Now here's the problem. The other 2 are the ones that most people worry about. So we're talking about bringing people in. You would never bring in a Challenger to your Antagonist. Your Antagonist is somebody who has great amount of information, knows what they're talking about. They just don't agree with you. They just don't agree with you. They may have had a bad experience with your company before, or they just don't agree with the vehicles that you're putting them in because they have a whole different philosophy. And the reason I'm saying you never bring your challenger in is because it makes us feel insecure. But that is the greatest person to bring in, because they know what they're talking about. You just have to find a common link of where you can have agreement. And also, when you're dealing with somebody who's an antagonist, sometimes you can open up your mind and be educated by them. So tell me what you see and why you like this versus what I offer. Just, I need to know. You don't like X. I get that. Why do you use Y? What is it that you see in Y? Help me as a customer. Educate me. And what you do is you start building rapport with that person. The other one is the most dangerous person we have in our business portfolio. It's what I call a Nominator. They have extremely high agreement with us, and they don't know a clue of what you're talking about. They're your cheerleader. Oh my God, he's the best! I love working with him. But when you look at it, they're not maximizing their relationship with you. Why? They don't have a clue what you're talking about. They don't educate themselves, and they keep you at bay. The Dismissive attacks you to keep you away from what they don't know. The Accommodator does the opposite. They make you feel like you're 10 feet tall and bulletproof, because they want you to feel good so that you don't ask them questions. And so they're the ones that you leave, and you're like, "Oh, that was a great meeting!" And if I'm on the outside, I'm like, "What got accomplished there?" They just told you how great you are the whole time. Like, they're not going to do anything. They don't understand what you're talking about. You were talking about certain high-level things; they don't have a clue. They're just, "Oh, that sounds great! Love it!" And when it comes time to make a decision on the Readiness to Change, they ain't ready to change, because they don't want to educate themselves, because maybe they're too embarrassed to go there. Maybe they're too embarrassed to admit the fact that they just simply don't know. And so what happens is, your ego gets pumped up; you feel great about yourself. And you completely missed the play. The play was to get in there and do a little work to educate them. So the accommodator, because they trust you, is like, "Hey, look." And this is one of the things I used to do in pharma. "Hey, look, you and I have a great relationship. I need to bounce some ideas off of you about how I communicate this. Can I use you as a sounding board?" I didn't attack them that they didn't know. But I said, "You know, some of my clients are having a hard time in this area. Can I bounce some things off of you?" And I passively educated them.

That's great. All right. So once again, just go over the 4 types of clients real quick. Yep.

Aligned. So if you think about it by 2 factors: level of agreement, high, and level of knowledge, high. If you go low agreement, low information, low knowledge, that's the Dismissive. The high knowledge, low agreement is the Antagonist. The low knowledge, high agreement is the Accommodator. Love it. Love it.

All right, last question before we get into the world-famous Enon, in your book, The Mindset Manifesto, you mentioned that you say a fully engaged life always begins in the mind, impacting thoughts, feelings, and actions to create pathways and habits responsible for success. And it just made me think about in our coaching programs, we talk about mindset, skill set, tool set in that order. And so why is it so important that in anything we're doing, and in particular with business, with our audience, why is it so important we first start in the mind before we jump to what's so common, the tools, the templates, the systems and processes? Why do we have to begin in the mind first?

So if you don't know what you want, you'll never know when you get it. OK, you won't build the plans to achieve it, and you won't follow through. And we used to follow a quote, and it's in the very front of my book, which is, anything you ardently desire, sincerely believe in, vividly imagine, enthusiastically act upon must come to pass. If you can't see it and you don't really want it, then you're not going to do the efforts to get there. And I find too many people in our world today, they're afraid to admit what they want. They kind of mention it and then they bitch when they don't get it. If you're not willing to lay it on the line and put it out there, you're not going to achieve it. If you want to be the best at what you do, then say it and build the tools and the skills necessary to succeed with it. If you can't admit what you want, then you're just going to go around getting substandard outcomes. And I think the problem is that most of us in today's world, we're terrified to go all in. We're terrified to leave it all on the line because what that means is if we leave it on the line and we fail, The ultimate conclusion is I just, I guess I'm not that good. And that terrifies people. So most of us leave with stuff left on the table because it's easier for us to say, well, I should have done better. I should have given more versus I just maybe don't have it. But yet I've really never met somebody that just didn't have it.

Well, I'll tell you what, I've got 3 pages of notes. I know many people probably driving, maybe doing some yard work, listening to this podcast is going to want to stop this and make sure that they take down some of the things that you said. But let's transition into the world-famous E9, and then we'll close. Dr. McKay, what's the last book that you read?

It's a book called Alone at Dawn. It was about a guy by the name of John Chapman, who was a Medal of Honor recipient. He was an Air Force combat controller who really was awarded two Medal of Honors based on his heroic actions in Afghanistan right after 9/11. An absolutely incredible book and knowledge base about what it takes to do the uncommon thing. He unfortunately didn't survive. It was the very first Medal of Honor recipient to ever be recorded live on a drone. So they saw his fate and his action. It's a failure and a breakdown of communication, and it was a failure breakdown of segmentation of leadership. But it's a brilliant book about doing the uncommon thing that other people just don't have the guts to do. What book would you recommend the most to others? It's a good question. I think favorite book I want people to read is a book called The Obstacle Is the Way by Ryan Holiday. I spent some time with him and he and I stay connected on text and email. His books are just absolutely incredible. Yep. And The Daily Stoic is fantastic too. And I think Ryan is just a modern-day philosopher. I think he has a heart of gold. He and I may disagree on some political things, but that's okay. And if you go on my website, there's an hour-long interview that we did in person with him in Austin. I think his writing is incredible. The Ego Is the Enemy is also a money, money book. And I've got his new book, I haven't started reading it. He sent me a copy of it called Lives of the Stoics. I'm waiting to get on vacation to kind of read that. So anything Ryan Holiday writes, I love his books in business too. His business books are just absolutely incredible. And if you're a business reader and you like to read business books— I don't like to read how-to business books, but I like his stuff.

Yeah, Chris is the one that actually really introduced me to Ryan Holiday's writings over this past year, and I've just been diving into it. Yeah, I agree, I love the angles that he comes at. Okay, so I really was excited to ask you this question. What's the biggest thing that has surprised you in working with high-level professional athletes and high-level collegiate athletes? What's the biggest thing that has surprised you that for those of us that don't get to interact with those type of people on a daily basis may be surprised to hear?

They're just like us. They have the same doubts and fears we all do. Doesn't matter how much money they've won, doesn't matter where they're at, they have the same doubts and fears. And people are so crazy, they think it's so strange to hear that. They think, oh, if I just get to a certain level, I'm not going to have— no, bigger stage, bigger problems. Okay, but it's the same core issues. They have doubts, they have insecurities, they have fears, they have worries. Never met a player who says I have enough money in the bank not to worry anymore. I've sat down with players who I can't tell you how much money in the bank. And they're like, "I think I'm finally at a place financially to have kids." Like, you got to be kidding me. You know, I had no money in the bank when I had our kids. But it's the same worries. That's why those external things will never bring happiness. They'll take away some stress. They'll just bring in other stresses. But I mean, granted, if you can't pay your bills, that's stressful. So somebody does help you to pay your bills and stuff, but you got to find the passion. And they also lose their passions. Not every professional athlete loves what they do for a living.

What do you do every day that you wish could be automated?

I mean, I wish something would exorcist me. So this is going to sound like total first world problems. I love to cook. We're building a house right now. It's got a kick-ass kitchen and outdoor kitchen and everything. But looking back, my kids are 23 and 19. I'm 48. We had kids a little young, so there wasn't a whole lot of financial flexibility early. Looking back at it now, I wish I would have hired a chef. The amount of money we spent eating out, working 14-hour days— my wife and I run the business— meeting our kids at XYZ restaurant and eating and spending $80. If I'd hired a chef to come in the house, I probably— I've done the math. I'm not talking about a blue ribbon chef, I'm just talking about somebody who'd come in 4 days a week and cook at my house and have a hot dinner. I would have saved money. Wow.

So you're still doing some traveling, but when we can fly again, and you're gonna jump on a 10-hour fly it across over to Europe and you could sit next to anyone dead or alive, who would it be and why?

Obviously somebody not very big because I'm pretty big, so I want to make sure I have space. Without naming somebody, I love sitting next to builders of businesses or systems. I sat next to a guy one time flying to Orlando. We were both going into the PGA Show. We were both in first class, and he was a young guy in jeans and flip-flops and a t-shirt, and he was one of the guys who developed the technology for databases behind websites. So he had sold his businesses for a couple hundreds of millions of dollars. And that was the most insightful 2.5-hour conversation. That's actually where the 5 people came from because he said, I only have 5 people in business that tell me what to do. Somebody who's working in down the line, if they're sending me emails about how to improve business, they're failing their leaders. I don't want them telling me I'm doing my business wrong. I have 5 people around me that can tell me exactly what I'm I'm doing wrong. And he's very connected with Apple and Google. Those are the types of people that I love sitting next to. I say that kind of comically. I sat next to Charles Barkley one time on a first-class flight up. I always upgrade. I had a friend of mine that told me, you'll spend less money in recovery by upgrading than flying in 27F because you're gonna be exhausted when you get there. So I was flying out to Phoenix and Barkley sits down next to me and I wasn't going to say anything to him. I've been around a lot of high-level athletes. He's fascinating, but he needs to rest. So I wasn't going to be a fanboy, and the TV wasn't working. And so he started talking to me. So we talked for 4 hours, most fascinating conversation about life. And come to find out, we have mutual friends in Arizona and here, and he loves golf, obviously. And we started conversation. But one thing I realized— this sounds really bad— but I don't care how successful somebody is, I don't assume that they know more than I do. Just because they're successful, just because they're a pro athlete, that doesn't mean— I tell my athletes, and because I've never had an you with this, but I tell my— all my PGA players and LPGA players, when you do pro-ams, you got 4 people in your group, learn about them. They probably flew in in their jet while you rent yours.

Now, what's something that you learned from working with Coach Saban?

Every detail matters. And I knew that working, playing for my coach at LSU, and— but it's just reinforced at Alabama, is that the uncommon thing is the easy thing, the easy-to-do thing that nobody wants to do, the easy thing to look for, the easy way out. So the best of the best do the little things really, really well. Everyone wants to spend all their money on hiring people to do the big sexy, big shiny stuff. Get to work. Do the little things better than everybody else.

All right, this is completely self-serving question. What's the one thing I can do to make more putts in my golf game?

I wish I knew. Putt to make, don't putt to not miss. Oh, that's good. Yeah, putt to make. You know, it's funny, if you're out on the putting green you're practicing, you're putting to make, you go out on the course and it's like, don't miss it. That's the reason why we don't make.

I like it, I like it. That was good.

What's one thing that I would never guess about you?

I don't read a lot. How about that? There you go, that's good. I mean, I read a little bit of a book and then I put it down, then I'm done with it. Most business books, you can find out what they're going to teach you in the first 40 pages. After that, that's true, just fluff to sell the book. That's very true.

All right, last question on the E9. It is the Club Capital Leadership Podcast after all. What is the best piece of leadership advice that you have ever been given?

When I was working in Bristol-Myers Squibb, we went to a meeting and our medical director was a lady by the name of Freda Lewis-Hall. She called herself Dr. Oprah. She was an African-American lady who was the most dynamic and emotionally intelligent leader I've ever been around in my life. When she would give keynote things, she wouldn't ask you come up and give a talk. She'd put two couches on stage and they'd have a conversation. She was the greatest leader. I think she's the chief medical officer of Pfizer now. If I could spend time with her— greatest leader I've ever been around. She looked out at the audience and said, don't think about your next job, think about your last job. When you exit the industry, when you exit your career, what are you going to be doing? And then backfill all those skills necessary to achieve it. Too many of you are caught up on your next job. Can I get Can I get one pay raise? Can I get one thing? Can I get more freedom? Can I get less struggle? And what happens is you keep taking jobs that lead you nowhere. If you want to see yourself on your retirement day, what job are you leaving with? And then backfill. If you need to take a job for 2 years working in financial negotiation, take a job because that's what you're going to need to be to be a VP of the company type of stuff. So look at it like that as a leader, like where do you want to leave? If you want to leave And I ask this to people who are listening to this: if you have an agency that is self-sufficient, that allows you to fish every day and hunt every day, and that's how you see yourself leaving the industry, then get people that behind the scenes can do the work for you. But I think most of you don't want to leave that way. So ask how you want to leave and then start backfilling the skills necessary to achieve it. Wow, that's great.

What a great way to finish up the podcast. Dr. McCabe, can't thank you enough for coming on. Being so generous with your time. Obviously, you're all over social media, your website. But if people want to learn more about you and how your programs and coaching can help them and their teams, where's the best place for them to go and to find you?

Yeah, it's brettmcabe.com. And that's just B-R-E-T-T-M-C-C-A-B-E.com. Find me there, and you'll see all my programs, Catalyst School and different factors about leadership and things like that.

Awesome. Thank you so much for your time.

Thank you. Y'all have a great day.

Man, what a fantastic podcast that was with Dr. McKay. A few things really stood out to me. Number one, he talks about the success formula, where the skills and the talents and then applying that under pressure, the psychological flexibility, and then just the acknowledgement of luck and randomness. I mean, I think we can all relate to that in our businesses, in our life, and how much luck and randomness has played a part. The second thing that really stood out to me is just the 5 people you need to have in your life: the colleagues, the confidence builders, the competitors, the critiquers, and the challengers, and how important it is to have those. And then also, I thought it was really interesting when we got into the 4 different types of clients: the aligned customer, the antagonist, the dismissive, and the accommodator. If you want to know more about Dr. McCabe and how he can help you, take a look at his Catalyst School. Go to the catalystschool.com. Or if you want to know more about Dr. McCabe, go to Brett, B-H-R-E-T-T, mccabe.com. Brett mccabe.com. He has an awesome podcast, some amazing guests on there. So definitely tune into his podcast. All right, everyone, until next episode, lead well.