Episode 332: Breaking Down Small Business Payments with Jeff Maine

What if you could step out of the day-to-day and see your business from a whole new perspective? Welcome to Above the Business, where we empower you to rise above the daily grind and embrace a higher way of business ownership. It's time to build your business by design. Welcome to another episode of the Above the Business podcast. My name is Bradley Hemner, your host. On today's episode, we take a different look at small business and entrepreneurship, and that is around accepting payments. Today's guest is Jeff Main. He's the founder and CEO of Pay Proudly. Now, accepting payments may not be something that you've ever thought about, and you didn't even think that you maybe need to think about. But whether it's your current business or maybe a future business, I think you're going to learn some things that maybe will help you avoid some mistakes that you may have made, and certainly things that I wish I would have known several years ago. I think you'll get a lot out of this conversation with Jeff Main. Jeff Main, welcome to the Above the Business podcast.

Thank you so much, Brad. I appreciate you having me on today.

Excited to have you. Well, we always start with background and origin story. I love hearing people's journeys of how they got to where they are because I think there's so many lessons that we can all gleam from that. So, Why don't you take our listeners back and tell them your story about how you got to where you are?

Yeah. So, I appreciate that. You know, it's, I've been in the, I'm in the payments business, right? So, we work with business owners all across the country in their electronic payments. And I tell people all the time, they'll ask me, how did you get into this business? And say, you know, back in the '90s when I was in college, I never would've said that here I am going to be sitting here still in the payments business, but It's where I'm, where I've landed and it's the space that we know, uh, today. But basically, you know, I was at St. Louis University studying finance and, uh, I got a phone call one afternoon and, and I was always an entrepreneur. I mowed lawns through high school and college and always looking for that different internship and, you know, always looking at what I wanted to do when I graduated college and knew I wanted to be in business for myself. Excuse me, but, um, I got a phone call from a, from a friend who was in the business out of the, out of town. It was a family friend, and he had some leads and wanted me to go run some leads. He had lost his sales guy in St. Louis, his local sales guy. I had no idea what I was getting myself into, but I started running these leads for him and selling, you know, back in the day it was the little Zahn Jr. boxes with the detached printers and You know, and, um, and, and when I graduated college, you know, I started doing that for a few years of just kind of running leads for him. And when I was finishing college, I'll never forget, you know, I had a, had a job offer with a big consulting company, um, and I was gonna be working in PeopleSoft, in HR PeopleSoft, traveling around the country. It was a sought-after job, very fortunate to have gotten it. And I'll never forget the conversation I had with my dad. He, um, He looked at me, he said, you know, Jeff, you've always wanted to work for yourself. He said, if you're gonna take this job and you're always going to make just enough money to never take the risk to go do it, he said, you can always go get this job. But he said, if you know, he said, you should move home, live with me. I've taken care of you this long. What's another few years? And start a business and just, just go. See if it's for you and, uh, try to own your own business while you don't have anything to lose and, um, and no risk really. And so I took him up on this offer, and that was the summer of 1999. And I had dabbled in this payments business, so I kind of understood it, and, uh, I had some contacts. And so I, I— we got into the payments business. And, you know, since then, since 1999, here I am still today in the payments business. We've built some businesses, we've sold some portfolios, we've built an ACH company and sold it. Um, and, and just over time change, you know, gotten into different vertical marketing of going heavy in certain industries, had partnerships that I've gotten out of and, and still in some. And, and now, which, you know, all that we've done and morphed into Pay Proudly and 3 years ago, we were just sitting around the table. We were kind of at a transition spot. And I said to my wife, we were just talking and we were talking about our givebacks and what we were doing. And I said, you know, the 2 big problems in our industry today is, I said, people, business owners don't have clarity around payments. And I said, and the other thing that was just important to us is we wanted to build a business with a giveback feature to it. That just, you know, feel good, you know, and really be intentional and do it from the ground up. And that's how we started Pay Proudly was with, you know, so our mission reads, bringing clarity to payments. And that's what we're doing. We're bringing business owners clarity that they've never had before in the payments business, really being more of a consultant to them. We're not going after thousands of accounts. We're being very intentional about what we sign and what we're doing and really working hand in hand with our business owners where they know us and we know them. And then the second part of our mission is we're building a business with a giveback. And from the first dollar we've made, we give 10% of all of our revenue back to nonprofits. And we pick those nonprofits through the businesses that— the businesses that we sign, they, they give— they tell us who to pick. So we're supporting causes that are important to our business owners, and, um, it's a great thing. And, um, and, and we're only able to do it because of them. So, you know, obviously we give the credit to our business owners because if they don't sign up with we're not able to do that. But everything, you know, it's been great. And here we are building another payment processing company.

So, well, I may, depending on how it goes, I'll tell a couple stories that I have around payments that I actually have never shared on the podcast. And contextually, it just hasn't come up. But it does lead me, before I get into that, it does lead me to this question. That I have for you on the podcast. We really— years ago, the podcast, before we flipped the name just a couple of months ago, but for years it was named the Club Capital Leadership Podcast, and that was just the name we came up with at the time. And so it kind of gave this the notion that we were talking everything around leadership. Well, we certainly talked around leadership, but really everything we discussed was around the idea of small business and entrepreneurship. So it's really a small business podcast. And so we've talked about, we have people on that we talk about marketing, we talk about sales, we talk about, I just got off with someone a few minutes ago around just performance and like in creating culture and like, how do we get better? And so we're, I'm looking at this like almost a prism of business and like, what are all of the things that it takes to run a successful business? Yeah, well, I can tell you, like, one of the things that does not get talked about very often, like, at all, is how do you accept payments? I mean, people will say, like, look, uh, open a bank account, just, uh, do something, and, and then let's get on to the other things, which is, like, what your offer in marketing and sales. And it just is a, like, passed-by thing. So that leads me to my question: why do you think that is?

Yeah, I, I think it's one of those things that business owners don't want to talk about it because they don't understand it. And as us, you know, business owners, we want to understand every facet of our business. And if we don't understand something, we kind of just want to stray away from it. And, um, and, and there's a lot of confusion around payments. And there's— and when I say confusion, how do I accept payments? What are, you know, what are the fees I pay and why do I pay those fees? And are there better ways to take payments? And are there ways to reduce my fees? And there's, there's just all this information out there around payments and business owners, you know, they don't know. And that's where we are so intentional about the clarity. But I think it's just, it's not easy information to get your hands on. And, you know, a lot of business owners, I'd say the majority, they take that easy route, right? They're starting a business and what do they do? They just call Square and they set up an easy route, right? Or they are in their bank, like you said, and they're setting up a bank account and they look at their bank and say, hey, do you guys do payments? Oh yeah, yeah, you just fill this application out. But the banks are selling a one-size-fits-all solution. And, and that's really not the answer. And when, and when they have questions and they call their banker and ask them, the banker doesn't know the answer. So they bleed 'em over to an 800 number that they have to sit on hold and go to these call centers. And, and it becomes where I'm, I'm just not gonna think about it. I'm just gonna pay it and I'm just gonna move on because I don't have a professional. I don't have somebody that I can call that knows the answers to my questions. And it becomes very frustrating. And that's what we wanted to change. There's a lot of feeling around our business of like, you know, that used car feeling, right? Like, I just— it's icky. It's not, you know, it does— it's not a great feeling. It's just, I don't want to talk about it. And we want to change that. We want people to say, no, I mean, I We've got all the clarity we need. We know who to call if we have a problem. They fix it. If we have issues, they tell us where to go or how to handle it. And, and we, so we want to change that narrative with our customers.

You know, there's, for some of you, depending on the space that you're in, this initially can feel on the surface a topic that maybe, like if you're an insurance agency owner, potentially you're already processing your payments through something that's kind of corporate approved. But here's what I'd share with many of you is that I know that many of our listeners, because many in my own community have a second business completely outside of that or a third. And so this can become something that if you're wanting to desire to build, say, a holding company, you actually happen to use a word portfolio. So like, that's actually one of the things I'm doing is been in kind of holding company, a portfolio of businesses. This actually becomes something that you have to think about. Okay. So the default mechanism, like you said, it becomes Square. You throw up maybe PayPal, right? Or yeah, or Stripe, maybe Stripe or something like that. You go to the big names, you do a quick Google search and it's just like, okay, whatever. Like, let me just do it and move on. And I don't even like, except know what the fees are. And I just, it is what it is. I just move on right down the road. So why do you think that that is— dangerous might be not the right word, but maybe not the smart business move to make?

Well, yeah, they don't know any different, right? And so they— and it's the path of least resistance. It's easy and they don't know better, you know, and I will say Stripe and Square and these solutions, they have their spot that we refer businesses to them and say, hey, this is better for you and here's why, right? But the majority of the businesses that we deal with, you know, are— they think, you know, for example, we'll use QuickBooks, right? People think, well, I use QuickBooks, I've got to process through QuickBooks. Well, that's not true. There's a lot of integrations to QuickBooks that, you know, we have a fully, you know, fully integrated solution to QuickBooks that actually we can send out invoices to customers from your QuickBooks without you doing anything and give customers a cash and a credit price, um, that we can actually change the price of your invoice to, to, to get your credit card fees back. And as long as you're doing that in the right way, you can do it. But a lot of business owners don't know those details, and that's where we come in and, and where we can really help. And there's a lot of point-of-sale systems the same way. People think they're not integrated integrated with other processors, but they need to ask the questions. And, you know, conversations are free. I tell people that all the time. You know, let's talk, let's see what you're doing. There are certain situations that we can't help you, and we'll be the first ones when we find out that that's the situation you're in to say there's nothing we can do for you. But we also might give you some information that you can go back to that solution and, and get a better rate. or, you know, process a different way or change something that qualifies your corporate cards for, for a lower interchange category. There's a lot of things that go on in this industry that people just don't know what questions to ask to get to where they really need to be.

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You know, um, If you think about it too, what— I'm just going to use a roundabout number, um, 3%, like a 3% fee. And you talk about when you start doing a volume, that becomes substantial money over a, over an annual basis, um, that really could go right back to the bottom line, period. Like right back to profit. Do you do and help maybe somebody with Now I'm kind of getting into dollars and cents just a little bit of it, but maybe to help somebody evaluate that and say like, look at what you're like, actually what it is. And if you shave that off by switching the payment processor here, I mean, that is money that goes straight to your bottom line. You just instantly become more profitable.

Yeah, we have a free system that we take statements and, and we, we throw them into our system and we can turn around and give numbers back to a business literally within 10 or 15 minutes of saying, Hey, here's where you're at and we're going to qualify all those cards and interchange categories. And, you know, a lot of, you know, a lot of people don't want to show you a statement, right? And so we can address that real quick and just say the reason in our industry we need to see a statement is because when you look at your credit cards in your pocket, if I pull out, I can pull out 5 credit cards right now out of my wallet that I can pay you for within your business, the same product, but all 5 of those cards you're going to pay a different fee on. Okay, because all these different interchange categories— you got American Express business cards, you got personal cards, you got reward cards, you got debit cards, you have HSA cards in the medical world, you have all these different cards. And then based on how you take them as a business, it qualifies these cards for different categories. So If you want a true apples-to-apples comparison of where you're at today, we have to know the mix of cards that you're taking and how you're taking them. We can get all that data from your statement. Um, you know, these credit card companies, they, they pay people to try to make these statements very confusing to where the average business person will not understand them. We, we understand them. That's what we do for a living, you know. So, um, and we can go through and say, based on this exact activity, this is what your rates will be. And when we do that over a 2 or 3 month period, most businesses are doing the same type of business month after month after month, where, you know, they're, they're taking the same type of cards, they're doing the same type of business. Every now and then we'll have restaurants or certain businesses that'll take, you know, they'll do a big corporate event on big American Express corporate card, and it'll throw their rates out of whack. But we can always— when they ask that question, hey, my rates look off this month, we can normally pinpoint that to a situation that doesn't normally happen and say, hey, here's something that happened. And, and, oh yeah, I did do that event, and it was a $15,000 charge on a corporate American Express charge. Well, that's going to throw things off. So we're looking for those details and we need to know those details to really give you a true comparison. Anybody that would give a business an effective— if they said, hey, we can sell you this without knowing those details, they're guessing. It's just flat out because how can they possibly know the mix of your cards if they haven't seen a statement? From you. They don't. Now, we can make a very educated guess based on business type and location. And, you know, we have a lot of data, we do a lot of processing for a lot of businesses, right? So we can make an educated guess, but it is an educated guess.

So, um, I'll maybe tell you offline. I don't want to say who, what processing company it was, but I was part of a business a few years back that was kind of in the aesthetics world. And so they had already had some payment type processors in place. Well, come to find out, they ended up having like, they were like, had, had 3 different like profiles and they were paying like these crazy fees. To your point, it was just, it was ended up being a mess. So we go through and we start cleaning that up. But my goodness gracious, it was— they were so difficult to deal with. Okay, and this would have been, uh, for listening audience, it would have kind of been more of like a retail-type place, so to speak. Not really a retail store, but in the medical-type, um, space. And that was one of the— my first experiences to where like, man, this is a huge hassle. Huge hassle. It was very difficult to get people on the phone, um, and they seemed to— I mean, goodness gracious, I mean, most companies want to give good customer service. They seem to actually be literally on the opposite of that. Like, I was a burden to them as a customer that we were calling to try to get information and get intel and try to seamlessly switch where the accounts are coming from and understand the fees, etc. And so as I started to do this, I started reaching out to the bank, etc. And the banker at the time kind of threw her hands up and was like, I don't know, they're all like that. You know, she just threw it out that way. Why in the world is that? How can they operate in such a— and when I say it was over the top, I mean, it was pretty significantly over the top to where it was such a bad experience. It wasn't like a bad day and I called a person at the wrong time. It was just the way that they did business. Yeah.

And, you know, I hear this over and over and over again, and that's why, you know, earlier and I'm saying our industry has this icky feeling about it. And I think there's, you know, these companies that just signed thousands and thousands of accounts and the service, the level of service just isn't there. And, and I don't, you know, you and I both know, you know, a little bit product of the times today. The general customer service world has gone downhill in all businesses. There's certain business— businesses today that still take it to that level, but you know, that it's becoming fewer and fewer and fewer, unfortunately. And, um, you know, we take it very, very serious here. We, we have a person answer the phone, you know, that, that you can talk to, and that person is in our office. It's not a call center somewhere else. And, um, I tell, I tell people all the time, and at the end of the show when we're giving our contact information, test us. Call our number, see if we answer the phone. Um, you know, we answer the phone. That's—

it's important to us because what a novel idea.

Yeah, I, I have to tell my salespeople, and, you know, the businesses that are already processing with us is our best business, right? That's— that we have to take care of those business That's what we're paying our bills with. We want to grow and sign new business. Of course we do, and we're focused on that. But the business that we already have, that's more important than anything, is keeping that business and keeping them happy. And if you're not— if you're, you know, if our customers are having that experience that you had, our attrition is going to be extremely high.

And, you know, we don't want— that's actually a really good point just in general for us to make for, for businesses, that Hey, we got to get new— every business wants to get new customers or clients, if you, whatever you call them, right? They want to get new customers. They want those customers to be worth more. If I can get you to spend this, but I can get somebody else to spend double of that. Okay, great. That's winning. But boy, keeping customers is honestly sometimes kind of like left to the side. And I've heard Keith Cunningham once say like, how big would your business be if you never lost any of the customers you've ever had?

And it's like, wow.

I would be huge, right? I mean, because I'm never— I haven't lost customers. And so sometimes we look at churn retention rates as like percentages, but the reality is that's a lot of people, can be a lot of people.

So we bonus based on attrition. We want our attrition numbers to be very, very low. And we take that very, very serious. And that's all about what do you do for your customers? And, you know, and trying to, you know, we touch all of our customers quarterly, right? Whether it's a phone call or an email or a mailing or, you know, or something, they're hearing from us. When's the last time you heard from your credit card processor? Probably never, you know. Um, and so we're on that other spectrum where we're really reaching out, really trying to be, you know, in their business where they know us and we're part of it. And we want to answer those questions. And sometimes, you know, you make that phone call to just see how things are going and you open up Pandora's box. But if you didn't make the phone call and you didn't know about it, there's no way you can fix it. At least we're giving us an opportunity to fix it. All right.

So I got to ask you around one big Meta thing that is— it's certainly starting to show up a lot more frequently in the day-to-day things. You know, who knows how long we are from this becoming mainstream. But I have to assume that you're at least, you are getting above the business and looking around the corner as to, well, where are we going with crypto? When are we going to start accepting Bitcoin? So like, I don't know how much, like, you know about that. So I'm putting you on the spot, but like, I'd love to know, like, where, how far are we from, you know, like in my consulting company, how far am I away from saying like, yeah, I'll accept your Bitcoin.

Yeah, you know, it's a great question and I do read about it and try to, you know, as payments are evolving, we want to be on the front side of evolving payments and be doing whatever, you know, the next thing is, right? Being a part of it and the payment world is changing and there are some things that we can touch on that are evolving in payments and where it's going, you know, and we go to these, I go to these conferences every year and they'll always be a breakout on crypto or on, you know, alternative payments and stuff. And so it's being talked about. Um, but I don't— I, in my little brain, right, this is my opinion— I don't see crypto becoming a big, big thing anytime soon until the federal government kind of takes their finger on it and, and says, hey, here's how we're going to tax it, here's how we're going to go with it. Because as long as it's avoiding taxes and avoiding what people want it to avoid, the government's going to keep their finger on it and keep us from going anywhere too quickly with it. Um, and so from payments to businesses, that we're still a little ways away from anything like that happening. Um, because obviously the, the government's got to be able to get their piece, or, or it's— or they're going to shut it down. And so it's very risky on that side of it. I think in the payments world, where we're evolving is as banking becomes less and less walking in a bank door, you're going to see payment businesses getting into the banking business, okay, and opening bank accounts on the payment processor side, a virtual account, right, that will sit there and say the second you batch your payments, you start taking credit cards when you batch, I'm going to give you access to those funds right now because it's on the same umbrella. And that's happening. Um, we will be selling that service before the end of the year, um, that, you know, we're going to be opening up avenues. And they can— and it's the same thing as a bank account. They can hop in there and transfer those funds wherever they want to, but we can give them quicker access to their money, which all business owners are looking for. I should say most. But, you know, so that's— it's— they're going to— it's where banking used to sell payments. I think you're going to see payments selling banking. It's going to switch.

My last question is kind of around semi— like, where do you see the industry going? Like, I'm thinking about this really as a consumer, that it seemed like that we were for the longest in a swipe situation. Yeah. And then we went chip, and then quickly it went, went to the, to the tap, right?

Yeah.

And I have to tell you, it's about a year ago, I, I feel like I'm actually on the— I'm fairly techie. Yeah. And I never played around with Apple Pay, like the double tap, at all. And one day I just was like, I gotta check this out. So I went in and I added my personal debit card. And so then I was like, all right, let's see how this works. Now that is all I use. And I just had this situation last night. I went to Lowe's and Home Depot. So if somebody at Lowe's and Home Depot is listening to this, you guys got to fix this. I walk in with my phone because I paid tap everywhere, right?

Yeah.

But they don't accept it. They don't accept it. So I had to march all the way back out to my truck, get my wallet, come back in and pay. Here's, here's my question. I mean, what's next? I mean, that, that's where we're at. We're at tap now. Everything seems to be that way. What, where do you see going from there?

Yeah, I mean, we all kind of knew it was going to go to the phone, right? Because you walk out of the house and you forget your wallet, but you don't forget your phone ever. So, you know, what's it, you know, what's it going to go to? What's next, right? In your, in your pocket, is there going to be a, your keychain going to do it? Or, you know, where's, where are those payments going to derive from? But, but yeah, I definitely see it moving more and more and more to you know, you conduct all your business with your, with your phone because you're, you always have it. And, um, I mean, I, I'm the same way. I use my phone all the time, um, because it's easy. And I've got my business cards in there, my personal cards, and I can go between the cards and, and, and there we go. And, um, and we're setting up businesses every day for that. It's a technology thing with those big companies where, you know, you think about Home Depot and Lowe's where they've built this technology around not having it and the transition for them to go build that into their gateway and deploy new equipment. That's a big undertaking for those big businesses. It's really easier for the small guys to get it than it is the big guys when you think about technology around what it takes to convert, you know, those huge businesses. So, and that's, Even the chip card, you know, it didn't really hit the States for a long time, and it's, it's, it's becoming more and more prevalent now. Um, and, and really it's becoming more and more prevalent because MasterCard, Visa are saying if you do it, we're gonna secure those transact— we're gonna, you know, secure those transactions more. Where it used to be the swipe, well, now they don't care about the swipe. They want a chip or a contactless payment done.

Yeah, makes sense. Jeff, this has been great. I've learned a lot, um, today. I know our listening audience is going to want to connect with you, connect with your company. Jeff, where would you, uh, where would you point them to?

Yeah, so, you know, we'd love for them to go out and take a look at our website, payproudly.com. P-A-Y-P-R-O-U-D-L-Y. All of our contact information's out there. I'm on LinkedIn, you can look me up, Jeff Main. My email is main@payproudly.com. I'd love to get emails from you guys. We'd love to, you know, give you a proposal. We'd just look at your statements and, and come back and just do a rate review for you. And, and worst case scenario, you take that back to your current provider and you save money on what you're doing today and you don't make a change. Uh, for us, best case scenario for you is it, is it helps your business. So, um, we'll do that. It doesn't, you know, no cost to you. Just give us a call.

Last question. The name of the podcast is Above the Business. When you think about getting above the business, you're a business owner yourself, you serve small business owners. What does that look like to you?

Yeah, you know, we're always looking at different ways of how are we getting above the business. And actually, I was telling you before the show, we had a meeting today and we were talking about just business readiness. Really above the business and looking, are we ready for our next marketing initiative? Are we ready for sales? Are we ready for our next hire? How are we going to train that hire? But being above that and really just, and rating our business. And we're, we're gonna do is we're gonna start creating a scorecard based on our business readiness for all these different categories of things that we're doing and let our employees be a part of that. And, and really just to keep our business moving in the direction it needs to move in. And hopefully, right, eventually one day it'll move, continue to move in that direction without me being an integral part of the business on a day-to-day basis. And so just, you know, just really being above that and building all those processes and putting those into place.

That's great. Love it. Jeff, appreciate you coming on, my friend.

Yeah, thank you so much for having me and look forward to having conversations with your listeners.

Awesome.

You know, as I mentioned to Jeff on the podcast, we really try to take this idea of small business and entrepreneurship, and I think of it like a prism, and I hold it up and I try to come at it from every different angle possible. We have a lot of podcast booking agencies that reach out to us and are able to bring us incredible guests like Jeff. And so, but I turned down a lot because I think, how is this going to serve our audience? And so this may, may not be a topic that you ever thought that you would need to kind of listen to or pay attention to. And maybe some of you, if you're in like a representative of large corporate insurance company or maybe another corporate institution, payments may not be something that, hey, you know what, I don't have to worry about that. But if you were to start a secondary company, now you actually have something you can go back to. So hopefully this becomes an asset in your portfolio that you can come back to and say, you know what, I'm actually going to reach out to those guys at Pay Proudly. I'm about to start this other company. I don't know this space. I really want to kind of have my hands on it. He's brought up some things for me to be concerned about. I really don't know what that is. I'm just going to reach out to somebody who is trusted that I like and seems to have mentioned some things. So my, that's my, that was really my hope of today. And I feel like that Jane, or excuse me, I feel like that Jeff really delivered on that. So hopefully that gave you some exposure to a different aspect of small business you may not have ever really considered. Big shout out to our podcast sponsors. Obviously today we're talking about payments, and so, you know, you're bringing in revenue to the business, you're bringing in income to the business regardless of how that comes in. And but you need to start having, you know, some numbers and be able to make decisions off that. It's kind of what Jeff was saying, that if we can get those statements— well, it's kind of similar to with you with your financials and having really clean financials to be able to make good decisions off of is so critical in today's environment. Club Capital can help you do just that. Go to club.capital. You know, in my world, we really believe in building an operating system for the business to be able to grow kind of beyond you and for it to be able to operate like clockwork. Well, but you got to have a really good team to do that. You got to both attract A-players to run that operating system, them, and you got to develop them. Both Autopilot Recruiting and Coach B Consulting can do that. Now, you've heard David on here many times and Alex on here many times, but look, we could have a lot of other podcast partners and sponsors on here, but we wanted to work with the best, and we wanted to work with people that we know that are vetted and trusted, that do an incredible job to be able to serve all of go to autopilotrecruiting.com if you want to help on the front side of being able to source better candidates, be able to build a bench, or maybe if you're in a pinch— didn't mean for that to rhyme— but if you're in a pinch and need to be able to bring somebody on, you don't want to make a hasty decision and not speed through the process, maybe skip steps. Autopilot can help you to do just that. Go to autopilotrecruiting.com, and then when you're ready to really start developing them, both not just develop you but also your team to be a part of that development. Who's to— if you want to develop your team, that doesn't mean you have to do all of it. Coach P Consulting can help you do just that. Go to coachpconsulting.com. And also, you've heard me say this a lot recently, but again, I think it's important for me to be Chief Reminding Officer, and that is that you— if you're going to have a bonus and compensation structure, place the put all of your sales and keep up with your bonus and put your plans in so you're not having to do manual calculations. That's not a good use of your time. But you also want it to be an easy interface for you to work in. You want it to be something that your team's going to enjoy, and it's got to be something that's going to be corporate approved and work with your corporate approved CRM. We get all of that and so much more. Customized word tracks, maybe you pick up from yourself or from Coach P as an example. Go to todayapppro.com. Today App Pro. Artofone.com. All right, everyone, till next episode, lead well.