Episode 371: The Generous Leader with Joe Davis
In this Above the Business podcast episode, host Bradley Hamner interviews Joe Davis, MD and senior partner at BCG and author of The Generous Leader: 7 Ways to Give of Yourself for Everyone's Gain. The conversation explores what it means to be a "generous" or servant leader, how generosity can coexist with a high‑performance, results‑driven culture, and practical habits that leaders can adopt. Davis defines a generous leader as someone who gives of themselves freely, without expecting direct personal gain, while still delivering outcomes. He highlights two of the seven practices from his book – “generous listening” (listening to learn from others) and showing vulnerability/authenticity by sharing one’s own humanity. The dialogue delves into common entrepreneurial pitfalls such as trying to do everything alone, the need to shift from a tyrannical, results‑only mindset to a team‑centric one, and the importance of unlocking the potential of the whole team. Davis shares anecdotes (e.g., a senior partner admitting he didn’t know a calculation, a colleague’s “I don’t know either” Slack reply) that illustrate the power of role‑modeling humility. When a leader recognizes a toxic culture, Davis recommends concrete steps: solicit honest feedback, identify a few generous‑leader traits to practice habitually, reflect on the feedback, and consider coaching. The episode also references a Steve Jobs quote about being proud of the team, contrasts sports‑style tyranny with collaborative business leadership, and wraps up with resources for listeners (author’s website, book availability). Throughout, the tone is conversational and supportive, with an underlying enthusiasm for applying generous leadership principles.
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Welcome to another episode of the Above the Business podcast. My name is Bradley Hamner, your host. On today's episode, we have Joe Davis. He is an MD and senior partner at BCG, and he is the author of The Generous Leader: 7 Ways to Give of Yourself for Everyone's Gain. It's come up in the 4 and a half years of having the podcast about being a servant leader. And when I saw this book, number one, he really does have you'll hear me talk about this in the episode. He does have a beautiful book, uh, cover. But I know many of you, and I certainly want to know what it means to step into the role of being a servant leader. And so when I saw this book, The Generous Leader: 7 Ways to Give Yourself for Everyone's Gain, I thought it'd be a great guest to have on the podcast. So without further ado, here's my conversation with Mr. Joe Davis. Joe Davis, welcome to the Above the Business podcast.
Thank you, Bradley. I'm glad to be here. Thank you.
Excited to have you. Well, we always start with background and origin story. I think it's just fascinating to see how people's journeys in their life have taken them to kind of where they are today. So why don't you share yours?
Okay. That's an interesting question because, you know, when you've been around a long time, you can answer it too long if you're not careful. I guess let me just highlight, as I'm thinking about this, a couple of things. I mean, I've working for a long time. Started as a newspaper boy like many of us. I started in restaurants. First job was Procter Gamble, in and out of grocery stores. It was a humbling role. I mean, as a sales rep, I will tell you. And then eventually went on to business school and BCG. And unlike many people, I've been in the same place for 37 years, which I know is, was unusual. So that's just on background very quickly. 4 children and 8 grandchildren. Quite important to me. So I'll tell you that even though it's not business related.
No, listen, I would, I would, I love it when people share that about the things that are important just outside of business. Yes, business gives us the, give us, gives us the flexibility, the income to be able to do the things that we love to do and spend time with family and the things that give us fulfillment for sure. Well, I have to tell you, when I first came across your book, The Generous Leader, my very first inclination was, I want to be considered a generous leader. I do. Like, it was like aspirational in a way of like, yeah, what do I— what does that actually mean? Which leads me to my first question. What does that actually mean to be a generous leader? Yeah.
So to me, a generous leader is someone who gives of themselves freely without expectation of direct personal benefit or gain so others can grow, develop, or thrive at their full potential. That's what it, that's what it means to me. And I will say one other thing that's interesting, because some people say, well, what is this, Joe, all rainbows and unicorns and clouds? No. I mean, you still have to, as any sort of leader, as we both know, drive positive outcomes, get results. The numbers matter. But I, we've obviously been arguing that the numbers matter when they're combined with how well you lead and team with your people. Sure. If I may, can I give you one quote? I mean, please. One of the people I talked with worked on this book was a guy named Joaquin DiWatto, who's the CEO and chairman of J&J. And he told me something that, that was very powerful. And you think, okay, this person, 100,000-person company, $100 billion. And he said, you know, he said to me, Joe, now how hard you work, how well you try, that's all good, but it doesn't matter. Of course it matters a little bit. But he said, as a leader, outcomes matter. But then he said something very powerful. He said, but the next step takes part maturity, but the sooner you understand and step past yourself and know you need to listen to and connect with your teams, the sooner you'll be able to release and leverage the human traits— that was an interesting word— that are critical to get positive results. So that's what I think of a generous leader, someone who gets results, sets strategy, vision, et cetera, but also understands they're doing it by teaming with, connecting, and listening to their people.
See, you just, you really kind of answered the next question already.
Sorry about that.
Which is great. No, no, but I was actually curious. When I was preparing for the podcast, and I was thinking to myself, okay, yeah, I do want to be a generous leader, and I want to really know what, what he means by that. But at the same time, Joe, I want a performance culture. I want results. I want outcomes. If we do not succeed, we don't make a profit, we're not in business, so it doesn't matter. And so, like, I was really curious to see how, how do we reconcile these two? Because then if it's like, oh, it's Pollyanna, and everything is like, yeah, sure, you're you want to do. You, you can be late. It doesn't really matter. You see what I'm saying? Like, I was really trying to wonder, curious how you'd reconcile the two of those.
Yeah, no, well, I— but you also just said something important. You said the word, I want a performance culture. You didn't say I want a performance boss or I want a performance manager. I want a performance culture, which is, you know, obviously the team. You're building a culture around a team, which— and then I would just argue, as I just did, you know, the leader has to as I said, SAP Vision, all that. But they don't get that culture and they don't get that performance without unlocking the potential of their people. I mean, you and I both know that just unless you're a solo, you know, single shingle person, that's different. So I think I just think, you know, in terms of where you're going with the questions, but I think, you know, the time is also now people are looking for, you know, a leader who recognizes them as a human for them to really be engaged and, you know, want to work at the place, etc., which we can go into if you want to.
Yeah, no, yeah, no question. You know, one of the things we just— back in April, we completed a— we called it a 2-day intensive. And so the idea is just we take a topic of business and we go deep on it for 2 days, and we bring in expert speakers to just talk about that, about that topic. And this last one was about team, and it was really around two— one's a quote and one is kind of a more of a, a maxim. And the maxim was, build the team and the team builds the business. That was the maxim we built it on. And the reason is, is because that maxim has been incredibly impactful in my life. And then this, the quote, which it may not be an exact quote, but it mean It was a story about Steve Jobs, and I believe Isaacson interviewed Jobs.
Yep.
And asked him this question. He said, uh, what is— what's the product that you're most proud of? You know, Mac, iPhone, uh, iPad. He said, I'm most proud of the team. I'm most proud of the team that I built. And I— and, and as soon as I heard that, I said, oh, that's, that's what we're doing the event on. It's all about, about that. And I say that to bring up to a point which was, for years I would hear that, those things, but I never really understood what it meant to unlock the potential of the team, right? I, I just, I was like, it's late in the fourth quarter, we're down by 20, give me the ball type thing.
Yep, that's typical, right?
Yeah, it, it, it is. And so I think that In the entrepreneurial space, you have very ambitious men and women that want to drive, drive things, but they— the tendency is, I'm going to do it all myself. I'm going to do it all myself versus unlocking the potential. Anyway, I know that's not a great question, but I'd love to get your just thoughts around that. Yeah.
Well, it's such— I mean, of course, because the other thing, Bradley, is I've been talking to folks and I'm talking to different companies, etc., about this. It's easier when you're finally the CEO of a bigger thing to understand it's all about the team because you don't have a choice. You cannot do it anymore. You know, you set budgets, you decide. When you're a brand new manager or leader, or as you said, an entrepreneur, a small place, you actually probably can power through doing it all. But that doesn't last if you're in, you know, if you're in a business that wants to get promoted, you can't, or I mean, even Steven Jobs did, you know, he had to come and go a few times to be honest, right? So, and he was a technical genius. So he, he, got the team going. So I do think it's something, and I'm glad it sounds like when you did that, I assume you did it with your team. It's something the sooner you can get those earlier on in their leadership, whether it's starting a business or otherwise, to understand that your job ultimately is to inspire, motivate the team, perform at their best, you will actually do better. It's just not easy at the beginning. Yeah. You know, my son has a small business. I won't spend too much time on this, just, but then it's doing quite well actually. And now he has, I think, 9 people full-time. But essentially, because he used to— he worked all the time for one. I said, Andrew, you finally have to hire somebody. Oh, but I can't hire somebody because then I got to give money. You know, now he understands. Oh, I hire some people, we make more money, and then I get to share it and I still do well, you know. But that took— that took— he's a 27-year-old kid. That took— well, he had a good coach, so he's lucky. But it took, you know, it took learning.
He did. He did have a good coach. There's no doubt about that. Well, well, I don't want to make it about my story either, but, but truly, I actually, um, I thought that is very well put because what I did initially to get the business off the ground was what was needed to get the business off the ground. It was all on me. The problem was, is we, we hit a point to where I simply ran out of time. And so then that, that's where the Goldsmith quote comes in, 'What got you here won't get you there.' And I was like, 'I don't know what else to do.' When the lever that you've been pushing on for years is on the floor, the, the, the throttle is all the way down, now, now what are you going to do? Now what are you going to do, right? And so it actually took a big pain point for me to actually make a change, as opposed to hopefully somebody listening to this can begin to go like, 'You know, before I hit that point, maybe I should actually consider making a, making a, a change to the way that I do things.
Yeah. So guys, I was— oh, sorry, go ahead, you go, you go.
Yeah, no, I— so I'm curious of if you would, don't mind, um, maybe in our time we may not be able to go through all 7 of the ways, okay? But why don't you give us a couple of the ways that I can go about giving of myself for everyone's gain, which is actually a really great subtitle to your book.
Thank you. Yeah, I tell you what, you know, there's 7, as you said, but I pick 2. So maybe I should have wrote the book on 2. It'd be easier to read too because it'd be shorter. Someone told me, don't write a book, no one reads them. I said, well, okay, but I want to do it. I think there's 2 things and I, it goes a little bit to what you said when you finally, you know, the lever fell on the ground. One thing that's very, I call it generous listening or listen to learn. I think it's so critical that this should be for, you know, think about our country. But, you know, as a leader, really engaging in what does the other person know that I don't know? What is their lived experience, if you want to get that deep, and/or the department they're in, if it's a different department, or the role they play in your company? What do they know that I need to know? And, you know, you want to, you want to ask and probe and listen over and over. I mean, two things, two point of data points, Bradley. When I talk to the executives for my book, all of them said, I ask, I ask, I ask. They just, and you could see that if you're a very top person. But Google did a study of their, now that's a big company, I get it, the opposite here, but of their 80,000 managers. And they, you know, looked at the traits that underlie the best of them. And the best were first, they're, they call them great coaches and they got there by engaging, um, and empowering and they got there by asking and listening. So that's the first one I think is really you know, when you ask people, one, you learn stuff you don't know. You also show respect, which then inspires them to want to team with you and all that, right? That's one. The second one, I think, and maybe this is newer, I don't know, but I think this whole concept of, you know, I say give up the mask, but whether you want to use authenticity or honesty or vulnerability, I don't care. They're all kind of— but, you know, bringing the human people now with you know, work-life balance so blurred. Technology started it and COVID ended it. You know, that's so people need and want to bring their human self, to put it most simply, to work. And they want to know that you see them as a human, not just, you know, your marketing guy or your tech guy, but their name and their person. And so you have to, if you're gonna do that, you need to share some of your humanity for, and then the other thing I'd say, when you share that humanity, you actually, if people, or if you share some vulnerabilities, if other one else, someone else is stuck or locked up or has a roadblock, you know, they're afraid to talk about it. The minute you talk about, oh, you mean I could admit I'm stuck? And just think how much faster things get done. If I may, I'll tell a quick story. A colleague of mine, I said, when did you cross your line? He said, well, I hate to say I don't know. I'm afraid to say I don't know. I don't wanna look bad. And he used to, when he is working with his teams, if he knew they're about to ask him a question that he didn't have the answer, he'd either engineer the conversation to go elsewhere. Offer it or he'd leave the room. That's not— and then one day he said, you know, I just gotta step forward. I don't know either. And the whole room went, oh, you don't know? Wow. Well, none of us know. And the energy went up, the creativity went up, and they all started thinking, wow. And just think, if you have a small organization, unless you're really stubborn and really brilliant, you're going to need the rest of those people to help you bring in new insights. But if they feel afraid to bring them up because they're afraid to say the wrong thing, Good luck to you. So I think this whole idea of listening to really learn, understand what others know that you don't, and sharing some vulnerabilities. So if someone else is locked, you actually enable them to unlock themselves.
I think that's fantastic. And I was just sadly going back through for a long time in my own journey, and that you get into this place that you feel like you have to. And it's, and it's in my head. It wasn't like it was real, but it's like I have to have all the answers.
Yes.
And I just today got a message. A team member was working on something and she's, she's done fantastic with it. She, she, um, but she was stuck and she came to me and I sent a Slack message back to her and I said, I really don't know either.
Good for you, Bradley. Good for you.
Yeah, but, but, well, thank you. But years ago I would have not, I, that is not the response I would have given. So I really don't need to be applauded for it because it is really like I had to learn, yeah, that it's okay to say that versus, oh, you can't get it done, I'll— I guess I'll do it, right? It was actually Courtney who, who's been emailing, communicating with you, with your team.
Yeah. Oh, she's great, by the way.
Oh, she's— oh, she's phenomenal. And I really was like, I actually don't know. I, I really don't know what else to do in this situation. And it wasn't because she's trying to throw her monkey of the problem back on my desk. It really was coming to a place where it's like, I don't know what else to do. I was like, you know what, I don't even know what to do either.
So, um, You know, the powerful thing from that is you just role modeled it. So now she'll learn from it, you know, and, and, you know, maybe someone didn't give you that benefit of role modeling that same kind of response. I had a story with one of my, well, my mentor. One time I was doing something, I was like third year at BCG. I didn't know how to do the math or whatever it was. And I walked down, he was a senior partner, and I said, hey, I don't know how to do this. Can you help me? And the same thing, he could have said, oh, hey, come back, I'm busy, and gone and got the, he said, oh, I don't know either. Let's walk down the hall, ask so-and-so. What a powerful message to me. It was just like your message. So he admitted he didn't know, and I felt like an idiot. I swear to, you know, all the things. And it was a very powerful message, which I won't applaud you, but I will tell you good, because you probably helped train Courtney a little bit to be willing to, you know, expose herself.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. So I have a question. Um, where's also the balance? I'm, I'm kind of going back to this because I think this is really key. I try to ask genuine questions from a genuine place of reconciling certain things. And I want to go back to— I, I, I'll rattle off some words, um, accountability, um, results, um, outcomes, um, and I think everybody, everybody wants to be able to hold people accountable and then yet be able to be vulnerable themselves and have a performance culture and want to be liked and respected by their, by their team, team members.
There you go, the whole package. The whole package.
The whole package. I don't want to make a choice. I don't want to make a choice. There are some people, uh, I'm looking, go on social media and find some people that you, you can see some of this, and then there's Maybe that's less, more so people you've experienced before, you know, and you can say, oh, I don't want to be like him. I don't want to be like her. Right. They were just terrible to work for. I want people to say, oh, he or she or I have high standards. I hold them people accountable, but he also allows himself to be vulnerable. And he pushes us to be better. And I just think that is a big challenge. But I'd love to get your, your thoughts on this because you've worked with people at the highest levels doing this.
Yeah. Now, you know, so funny because with where my brain is and what I've observed of the best people, I'm like you. Well, it's not that hard. I mean, it is, but there are people out there and it ain't that hard because— and actually, here's how I would think about it, and I'm going to come to this, I'm going to repeat myself a minute. But first off, I just think of the different parts of BCG I've run, I always set aspirational goals that were inspiring to people too. Like, if we get there, everybody's going to feel good. And they aren't so high that you can't make it. And then you just, you know, that's number one, which is the, you know, one of the points you made. And of course, if people do not deliver and you've done your best to help them and train them and coach them, people move on. It just may not be the right thing that's got to go to. And to your liked part, sure. But you don't want to be liked as you're failing. I think you said that at the very opening. Then I just think it's very simp— not simple, but unless you're single shingle, you ain't gonna get it done by yourself. Sorry. So, you know, you need to inspire and develop and train and coach all the folks that are, you know, helping you get to those aspirational goals. And if they're, if you are coaching them and training them and you're all getting there better, everybody starts to feel better. It just all builds on itself. The liked part. I mean, we, if we want to, we talk about feedback and all that because I think if feedback comes, is done the right way and comes from the right place, even when it's harsh as hell, they may not like you that moment. But if they see, yeah, I'm actually growing, they understand, you know, so that I don't think the like, it just, but you can't, I mean, you know, you can't be a jerk and scream at everybody all the time. I mean, you're not gonna be liked and actually, I don't believe you're gonna be succeeding to your point anyway.
No. Did you— speaking of that, so I love, I love sports. I love sports, basketball, golf, football. I'm in college football, you know, area down in Alabama in the South. And so, but I say that, did you ever watch the documentary The Last Dance with about Michael Jordan?
I, I don't watch many of them, but I did watch that one. You're right. Yes.
There was a— there's an episode midway through that is so incredibly powerful where one of his former teammates— and I really wish I could remember who it was— it was one of the centers. He said, you know, he wasn't a likable guy, he was a tyrant. Like, he actually used that word tyrant.
I remember that. Yeah.
And, and then Jordan later on, there's a— he gets emotional in the documentary and he says, well, you know, if you don't want to play that way, don't play that way. And I think a lot of entrepreneurs see that and they're like, yes, that's how I'm going to be, right? We're just going to just drive results. And I think that's just where, like, the difference between— there are differences in sports and business. Like, you cannot do that in business. You might be able to do it in politics, which we're not going to get into.
Right. But just don't go there.
Yeah, we're not going there. But like, I— there's so many parallels in sports and business, but I think that is an example of one. That just doesn't work. People do not want to work for a tyrant.
Not anymore, I don't think. They don't have to anymore. You can walk. I mean, the NBA player on Michael's team wants to be on that team because he's going to get a nice bonus when they win the championship, you know, all that stuff. So he's got— and he's also— but you got to, you know, you also have to remember he did— they did have to pass the ball to him and he has to pass them once in a while. It wasn't Michael Jordan, LeBron James, Kobe. They weren't the only people dribbling the ball. So they're even there with the tyrant. But I, you know, someone actually wants— so how do you explain I won't name names, but some of these very, very successful technical, you know, I mean, technology entrepreneurs in your spirit of your generous leader. And I do think if someone has really, really technical or in the sports sense, athletic genius, you can probably get away with a little bit more for a while. And, you know, some people, but, but, you know, you think of one person, not to name them, but buying companies right and left, some work, some are starting to collapse because the tyranny nature is just not not necessarily working. So I, I'm with you. But, you know, if you are an absolute technical genius, maybe you can pull off stuff, but only for a while. Your company eventually— I mean, even think of Facebook. I mean, Zuckerberg had a vision, but eventually he has a whole group of people that have to be motivated, inspired. And he, he's even— we can all read about— he kind of slowly changes things even in his own operations.
That's such a good, that's such a good point. And even if that, like in, in your example there, which I knew who you were referring to. Um, even in your example there, you're right, but nobody— we, we can't really look— me, there's a lot of times where it's like, I can't— I don't know what I'm going to learn from that. I don't, I don't know. It's so— it's inspiring, cool, it's great, like, to see that, but I can't actually model that. And truthfully, because you mentioned your, your, um, kids and your grandkids, I don't want that. I don't want to model that. If that's actually what it takes to be a billionaire, then forget it. I'm not, I'm just not going to, I'm not going to do it. It's actually not worth it to me to be able to personally be able to make that happen. Um, okay. So this is an important question I have. Let's say that I look in the mirror and, and I ha— I've had to do this. I look in the mirror and I, I realize that I, I do personally need to make a change. Like, people— I've had turnover. I'll just say what it is. I have a toxic culture, let's say. I mean, I don't know, I'm, I'm giving a hypothetical.
Yeah, yeah, okay. No, no, I got you. Don't— you're good. I got it, right?
Um, and so you have a toxic culture. People don't want to work for you. They don't respect you. You've got turnover. You realize You are the problem. You're not the bottleneck. You are the problem. And I want to be a generous leader and I want it to be authentic. I'm not going to just put on— that's a whole nother thing. We won't get into that. What, Joe, do I begin to do to actually make some changes?
Well, I mean, you just, you just said absolute step number one, which is recognize that somehow it's you that's part of the problem or the problem. Because until you recognize that, it's a lost case. I mean, as I wrote this book, so, so I said, well, Joe, the people that don't really even care about that title are never gonna pick it up anyway. So that's fine. So then I think, you know, I guess if I were that, you know, that person, I would, you know, well, I can tell you, it's very interesting. First off, look at my book, look at somebody else's book on what the components of someone who's this type of leader and figure out one or two of those traits, whether it's listening more to other people, you know, whether it's making small acts, congratulations, thank yous, and just start on a path of doing these things. Make them habitual. See the feedback you get. Oh, wow, look at this, you know. But the other thing I'd say, if you're really that serious, I'd also do your own little self about, you know, self, evaluation. And one where you're going, you know, it's hard, but go around to your people and talk about, hey, what are the 4 things I do well and the 9 things I don't do? And tell me examples. I mean, that takes a step too. But even the power, even the, exercise of asking those questions of your team, you're gonna change the dynamic with your team right off the bat because they're gonna be shocked you're asking. Now, if you don't do a damn thing, then you're in trouble, but you wouldn't have been looking in the mirror and realizing this otherwise. Sure. So that'd be, you know, I would either say take some of these kind of traits and start to make them habit. But actually, even if my kids were, or as you said, my, if someone was in this situation, I'd say, hey, you go out there and get feedback. I don't, and you do not be critical. Just take the feedback and then you go reflect on it. And start to change yourself, you know. And if you need coaches, get a coach. I mean, there's all kinds of ways to, you know, work on improving yourself.
I love that. I love that. I have to tell you, you have one of the most beautiful book covers I've ever seen. I wanted to tell you that. I don't know who your book cover designer was, but it's fantastic. It's actually— it's actually one of the, uh, most eye-catching books. We've— we interview a lot of authors on the podcast just from different aspects, and so I love your book cover. It's great.
Well, I appreciate two things. I love color. I love color. And so that was, had to be part of it, whether it, but I, you know, publishers will tell you, Joe, the title and the COVID is only to catch your attention. If you gotta get, and then you hope they buy it, you hope they read it or get it free, but you hope they're, but so I, I took that counsel and I also love color. So I said, we have to have color on this book.
No, I love it. I love it.
Thank you.
Thank you. Well, obviously, Joe, where can people learn about you, pick, find you, and then also where would you point them to for the book?
Uh, well, I'm, I'm on— I have a website, jodavis.com. Probably can't learn a lot about me, but there's some steps there. I'm trying to be active on LinkedIn, but now that I'm in this different situation, um, so, and I do follow my messages. If actually someone wants to reach out, talk about something, I'm pretty good. I'll give you my email and then say, let's talk by email versus going through LinkedIn. But that'd be the main two things. In the book, actually, I was just talking to someone earlier, it is in Hudson Bookstores in the airports. Which is funny because it's selling, which I never fathomed it would. But I think it's selling because of that pretty color that you pointed out. Otherwise, it's on Amazon and all those things, you know.
Awesome. Awesome. Joe, appreciate you coming on. It's been just a wonderful conversation. It's great to— great to meet you. Encourage our listening audience to, to pick up the book. I picked up a lot of different things from this episode. I really love— it was really more of a reminder for me, but unlocking the potential of the people, and then the two specific of the seven different ways, uh, the generous listening and then bringing your whole self. And you talked about vulnerability, authenticity. Those are some of my biggest, um, takeaways from this podcast. So Joe, thank you so much for coming on.
Thank you, Bradley. This was fun.
Well, I enjoyed that episode with Joe. You know, I said it at the beginning about being a servant leader, and at the end of the day You know, the podcast used to be called the Club Capital Leadership Podcast, and, and we came at business from a lot of different places, but it had its roots really at leadership. And leadership seems to be this thing that we all understand, we all get, we all understand its value, but sometimes it's difficult to actually know what it means to really kind of step into that. And I thought Joe did an exceptional job. I love being around, uh, being with people like Joe that make me want to be A Better Leader, and I know you probably got a lot out of that episode yourself. Want to give a big shout out to— let me— sorry, that probably, probably heard that team in the background, that, uh, ding. Want to give a— I want to give a big shout out to our podcast sponsors: Autopilot Recruiting, Coach P Consulting, Today at Pro, and of course Club Capital. As you go into the second half of the year, I was just talking to someone about their financials. And 3 years ago when we first started, you know, just talking about business in general, he really didn't have a great handle on his financials. But, but the work he's been able to do— he's not a CFO, he's not an accountant, but he really does understand those metrics of financials and how to use them to be able to make better decisions in the business. Matter of fact, he thought he was kind of spending too much in marketing, but come to find out he was spending about 7 7.4% of top-line revenue. And, you know, does that give him complete license to continue to spend? No, but it really does help to kind of put things in perspective. And so if you'd like to have an idea of, you know, perspective and benchmarking of all the different spending that you have, if you don't have that right now, book a no-obligation demo with Club Capital. Several of the biggest places that people want to invest money, and one of by far the biggest is obviously in payroll, in getting great people and then developing them once you come on your team. And there's none better than Autopilot Recruiting to help you to be able to do just that. If you haven't already, go to autopilotrecruiting.com. They are getting close to capping the spots that they have. They've had so much demand. So make sure you go to autopilotrecruiting.com. You know, a lot of times I really do try to share perspective and thoughts from not only my own experience, but also the experience of working with many other different business owners in the insurance industry and outside of the insurance industry. And one of those areas, just recently I was— I flew up to Minnesota and I was with a, a private client I've been with for a long time. And one of the things that he does an exceptional job at is training and developing your team. And now you have heard that so many different times, but not everybody has the gift that he does and the desire and the skills necessarily to be able to do that. So, you know, you want to be able to develop your team. Well, Coach P can be able to help you to do that, not just coaching for you, but also coaching and developing and training for your team. Go to coachpconsulting.com. Let him know that you heard about him on the Above the Business podcast. He'll give you an entire free month. We just made a— excuse me— we just made a huge switch with one of our softwares that we use to do a specific thing in the business. And we were— I was using a tool for about 6 months or so, and it was good, um, but it just wasn't honestly what I thought it was going to be. And so choosing your tech stack, the tools that you're going to use in the business, it is important. It makes a tremendous amount of difference. TodayApp Pro, it should be and can be one of those tools that you use in your insurance agency. Go to todayapppro.com. You're going to love the interface, the experience with it, and I know your team will as well. Well, I hope this was helpful to you. If you love what I do and would love to know more about how we help people, we help people with design, build, and install operating systems so they can go from being the rainmaker of their business where everything's dependent upon them to actually becoming the architect of their business. Go to blueprintos.com/assets and you can get several of our free tools for free, be able to help you along your way of creating an operating system. All right everyone, till next episode, lead well.
