Episode 373: There's A Book Inside Of You with Barbara Richter

Welcome to another episode of the Above the Business podcast. My name is Bradley Hamner, your host. Have you ever considered writing a book, maybe even in particular a business book? Well, whether you have or haven't, or especially if you have considered writing a book, business or otherwise, I think this episode is going to be a great episode for you to get introduced to this idea of ghostwriting. It was probably 4 or 5 years ago that I first even knew or heard the term ghostwriting and what it was. And I learned a lot from it. And one of the things that really has stuck out for me from Daniel Priestley is, the book that will change your life is not the one you read, but the one that you write. And I, of course, have not written a book, but I have started a manuscript. And I will tell you, more than anything else, Whether I choose to ultimately produce that book or not produce that book, the thing that has helped me the most is it becomes a forcing function for the clarity of my ideas, frameworks, models, etc. To that end, without further ado, here's my conversation with Barbara Richter of N Ink Ghostwriting. Barbara Richter, welcome to the Above the Business podcast.

Thank you so much for having me, Bradley. It's a pleasure to be here.

Excited to have you. So we always start with background and origin story. Why don't you take, take people back on your journey and your story about how you got to where you are today?

Oh boy. Well, uh, I'm a ghostwriter. Not many people, uh, when they're kids, I think, say, oh, I'm going to be a ghostwriter when I grow up. So, um, but I did grow up in a house full of books. My father is an author. He's actually, he's 81 and he's working on book number 11. So we always had books. So reading, writing, that was kind of the stock and trade. So I figured something would happen with that. I actually majored in undergraduate and graduate studies in French literature. So I studied that. I taught that for about a decade. And during that time, I was still writing. I was reading. And actually, with the birth of my daughter, I was looking for something— like a lot of people want to be home, want to be with your daughter. But really, if you've had children, you know that really they require all of your time. So you really can't do two things at once. As she grew older, though, I found I was able to write more and write more widely. So I started writing, and while I was writing, I thought, oh, I'd like to write a book. Wouldn't that be fun? So I put together a book proposal. I pitched some agents. I heard a lot of nothing, a lot of rejections, a lot of nothing. Finally, I heard something from an agent who said, you know, this isn't bad, just nobody knows who you are. Now, most people would hear that and say, okay, I've got to go and work on my public persona, go build an Instagram following or something like that. And what I heard was, well, if I can do it, I can help somebody who already has a profile. So that was my jump to ghostwriting. I put out a shingle, I got some clients, and I haven't looked back. And that was really the beginning of In Ink Ghostwriting, and we grew, and we have some writers now, we have graphic designers. And that also spawned another interest, uh, which was to help people who couldn't actually afford ghostwriting services, because ghostwriting— good ghostwriting, uh, is expensive. And for every client I took on at ghostwriting, I found I would take or excuse me, I would have to turn maybe 10 away simply because— not because they didn't have a good story, but because they couldn't afford the services. And that made me sad and I wanted to help them. So I guess that was the teacher in me coming back. And that was really the, um, the impetus for creating DIY Book, which is my new company, which is where I've used the tools, um, that I've acquired over a decade plus of ghostwriting and given them to authors. Predominantly life story writers and business writers, which I'm sure we'll talk about, uh, on this podcast today. So really trying to democratize the writing process so that anybody who has a story, who has the desire but perhaps not the means, can actually do it.

Yeah, you know, the— it was around 2000, roughly '18 or '19, whenever I even first heard the name ghostwriter. I had no idea really kind of what that is. But before we get into kind of the, um, tactics and maybe even the strategy around writing a book, I think that we first have to discuss that I shared with you that, you know, we kind of look at business from every single angle. And so there's a lot of people that may not have writing a book on their wish list, on their vision board. They're like, you know, what, what, what story do I have to be able to tell? Can you just discuss that a little bit about whether it's a book And primarily our audience are going to be mostly people that are going to consider writing a book that's going to help them to be able to grow their business in some way, shape, form, or fashion. Although there certainly is some life stories, so we can touch on that a little bit, but we'll predominantly think about it from the business sense. Discuss the idea and maybe breaking some of the false beliefs around like, what, what story do I have to be able to tell? Why would somebody want to, want to read my book?

Absolutely. And actually, so I'll step back. I actually started— I cut my teeth on business books. So I've been writing business books forever. And most of them have been smaller business owners or entrepreneurs who want to write their book, write their story about their authority or their product or service. But I think that despite that, there's this belief, and it's— I think it's incorrect, that just the big names, right, like the folks who are on Shark Tank, Mark Cubans of the world, You know, the founder of Nike. Those are the people who have a book in them, and they do, and they have really important things to say. But if you're a small entrepreneur, if you're just starting out, you're doing something new, or you're trying something different, you have value in your story and in your journey or in your service, and other people can learn from that. So that's one thing that I think is important for small business owners to consider. It's not something that you have to do, but putting a book together helps you as an entrepreneur stand out amongst your peers. It helps you to build your brand awareness, and it can yield other benefits beyond saying, I'm an author. But as you know, if you are an author, it does help you book speaking engagements. It helps you book podcasts. It helps potential customers recognize you and say, oh, if you're out and talking about this, you must be an authority in this, so I'm going to trust you with my business. So that's something that I think is really important for small business owners to consider. When they're thinking about writing a book?

You know, there was a saying— well, let me go back. I, I did not grow up reading books much, and it's embarrassing to say, and I wish that I had. I went through college. I think that I probably had completed— I mean, maybe I'd started a few, but had completed less than 10 bucks, maybe less than that. I mean, I just got through whatever I needed to get through, and I was several years into entrepreneurship before I actually started reading books. And then it was roughly, I don't know, 2014, 2015, and then I just started devouring books. And I heard something a few years ago that was the first time that I had even considered not— of course I have not yet, but I even considered writing a book. And it was a saying: the book that changes your life is not the one that you read, it's the one that you write.

Yeah. Hmm.

Well, I don't know, do I, do I believe that or not? So I'd love to just get your, your thoughts on that from not the reader's perspective, but the— from the author's perspective.

Go both ways. I mean, there are some folks who may say they're, they're not going to write a book, and then they don't write a book. However, Yeah, I don't know if it's as black and white as that. If you do write a book, whatever the length is, whatever the topic is, but since this is a business podcast, let's assume it's a business or an entrepreneurial journey book, that process does change you. It shifts your perspective because you're no longer just thinking about what's going to please you or make you happy, but you have to think about your audience and what you're actually trying to convey. And in that process of writing the book, and at least this is in my experience with my ghostwriting clients, it it can shift how they approach clients just in a business perspective anyhow. It's another way to get to know who you're working with and working towards. So, so that is something that I think can change people's perspective when they're writing a book. However, there are books that you can read, like you could read, you know, something like Atomic Habits, right? And, and that could be something that just changes you on a very different fundamental level.

Sure.

What you learn in that book could then perhaps affect your writing process or how you approach your dealings in your business.

Yeah, that's very true. So, you know, it's— we've had the podcast now for 4 and a half years, which is crazy to think about. 300 and 370, 380 episodes or something like that to this point. And so I've had a number of people reach out that want to start their podcast, and they ask questions that I asked in 2019, which was I don't even know where do I begin? What do I record this on? Do I record it in person? I mean, this is— I don't think I've ever put this on the podcast, but this is kind of embarrassing to look back on just a few short years ago. I actually was like, do we mail them out a microphone to use on the, on the podcast? I mean, you know, do I send them a podcast, a microphone to have? Anyway, neither here nor there. The reason I say that is to get to this question, is that when people are starting to consider doing a podcast, they don't, they don't know what, what, where to begin. They really are asking, what equipment do I use? Who does the editing? How long is it going to be? What's the structure? What's the format? Do you, how do you prepare? All of those kinds of things that have now become part of our system that we have to be able to get good, great guests on like yourself, etc. So I bring that as an example to writing a book. And so I'm kind of at that point where it's like, oh my goodness, I don't know where to begin. Do I put the— do I write it? Do I put it in a Google document? Who do I send it to? Who do I edit it? Who publishes it? Do I self-publish? Like all of these kind of things where for you, Barbara, it's second nature. You've done this so many times. You've helped so many people. Walk us through, if you don't mind, kind of a structure of maybe the nuts and bolts, how to do it, or even begin how to think about writing a book.

All right. Well, it's a big one, so I'll do what I can with the time that we have. So first of all, I think there's one myth that, oh, I can't write a book while running a company. And you can. It's not easy, but what is, right? And is it worth it? I would argue that yes, it is. It's challenging, but entrepreneurs wear many hats when they're running a company. So if you add this in and you structure it appropriately, you're going to take away a lot of the stress and it's going to be a lot more productive. So that's one thing that I would say as an author slash business owner, you can definitely do it. Obviously we talked about the reasons why you would wanna write a business book. But one thing that I think, and I've seen this just with clients, is you wanna balance your responsibilities without burnout. You really wanna think about how you're gonna manage your time. And if, if you may be running your business, but if you have a tendency to procrastinate or put off the hard things, if you feel like you're already stretched to the limit and you can't add one more thing, um, and you really want to do this book, you really do need to prioritize it. And, um, you want to look at your calendar and set a realistic goal. And the realistic goal, the overarching one, is how much time can I set aside each week to write or, uh, work with my team, if you're working with a team. Um, and keep that a consistent, uh, time each week. For example, if it's 2 hours a week for writing your book, you can spread those 2 hours out over a few days. In my experience, I find that kind of bookending your week maybe doesn't really work for— because you might forget things. So you do something on Monday, you go back to your work life, and then on Friday you're, you're back at writing. Spreading it out over, you know, 15, 20-minute intervals is better. It helps to build a more consistent habit. And then you're sort of building up that, that writing muscle, which is something that I think folks don't think about. You don't just sit down and write and things don't come out of your head fully formed. It does take practice. But whatever kind of time that you can put on your calendar, budget it, block it out, and treat it just as you would any other business appointment. Because this book, as a small business owner, it is going to be, in a sense, your calling card, right? So you don't want to approach it casually. So that's one thing that I would definitely say. And then there's time management strategies, which, which I'm sure that you, uh, are very familiar with. Whatever works best for you, you can apply those to writing. Um, one thing that I've found is really helpful is dictation. Um, so you don't really have to sit down, especially if you get, um, concerned when you're in front of a screen. Oh my God, I don't know what to write. Um, just talking into your phone and recording your thoughts is a great way to gather your data. Um, and I wouldn't diminish it. You can fit it in if you're traveling, if you're commuting, and when you have time to sit down and organize these thoughts, you've got it there. You're not starting from like a, a blank slate. Um, another thing I would say is that if you can outsource whatever you can, do so, um, so that you can free up some time for writing. This might be a temporary thing, perhaps, uh, if you're in the throes of a startup and yet you want to go write this book. I know when you're in a startup, you're all hands, you're in every place all the at once. So it can be hard to do that, but this is temporary. The writing of a book has a beginning, a middle, and an end. And if you can find some folks who can help you out while you're writing your book, all the better. And then the other thing I would say, and this might sound a little strange coming from a ghostwriter, but I believe in the power of AI. I think there are some great tools out there that can help get the act of writing completed in a more efficient manner. There are pros and cons, of course, to it, and we can certainly talk about those. But I would say don't, don't fear the bots. They help you, um, but they can't replace you. So, um, it's— those, those are probably the big things I would say that are important.

Do you recommend if someone has never— and again, we're talking in the context of a, of a business book, uh, for, for, for now— but do you recommend somebody consider starting first with an ebook? And this was helpful to me Whenever, or this has been helpful to me, I shouldn't say helpful. This has been helpful, uh, to get an idea of how long, how many words roughly are in a full-size business book and then mini book and then an ebook of like, okay, this is a very narrow concept. This, this, this ebook would have X number. It's a little bit longer than a blog post, then a mini book and then a business book. I mean, do you recommend people to consider that? Because to your point. I look at a Patrick Lencioni who has written some incredible business books, his primarily in fable format, but neither here nor there that I'm like, I can't be Patrick Lencioni. I can't be. I just had Alan Dibb on who has written a couple of marketing books, Lean Marketing and One Page Marketing Plan, etc. And he was talking like Lean Marketing is like 80,000 words. And so, you know, when you're writing your first book, it's like, oh my gosh, 80,000 words. That is, that is a lot of words. Scary. He's built up the habit to be able to do that. So share, share with me your thoughts around that.

Uh, well, so there is no perfect length book, um, and I think there are different, however, different lengths for different purposes. In my experience with ebooks, um, yes, as you mentioned, they are usually shorter. Um, you can do them like as a PDF. You're not really worrying about formatting too much. I've seen those to be most helpful in terms of promotion. So you can use those as like a lead gen when you have, when you're starting up your company or you're trying to build awareness. You create an ebook, you put it on your website, you offer it for free in exchange for their email address. You know, and that's a really nice way to— for the entrepreneur to see who's interested and then be able to speak to those folks directly. And then later on down the line when you have your book, you already have your audience that you're building. So that's where I see ebooks being really helpful. And you're right, they're short. Like, maybe not as short as a blog post. I don't know if you'll get that buy-in for somebody to say, all right, if it's 500 words, I'm going to go and give you my email address. If it's a little bit longer, if it's a little bit more robust, I wouldn't say too long, maybe, maybe 5,000 words. That might even be too long. If you're looking at pages like 8.5 by 11, because that can help people think a little bit better, maybe 20 pages, you know, and that includes, you know, how they can contact you and all those other things. So I would say 5,000 max, but really maybe 2,500 is the sweet spot. And actually, you know, if you're a podcast host like you are, Um, if you're going to write a book and you're writing about your experience and you're, you're wanting to harness, um, some of the wisdom of your guests, I've seen a lot of folks who actually turn their podcasts into a book. Uh, I've worked with a couple folks who've done that and they're really neat. Um, when you can find the, the common thread between your, um, guests and the trick of course is taking it from audio to transcribe transcription. Of course, there's a lot of, uh, apps and services that help you do that. But that also helps kind of take away the fear of, oh my goodness, what's the word count going to be? Traditional publishing, it used to be that the minimum was, I think it was like 60,000 words, if for a publisher to consider it. That's really, yeah, I would say maybe that's not the case so much anymore because I think people's attention span has dropped. So you really want to be able to get them quickly and with a story that engages them. Not to say that longer books can't do that, they certainly can. Um, but I guess all of that is just to say you write the book that you need to write, and if it's longer than that, then it's longer than that. However, if it is too long, you'll know that when you have your editor reading it and saying, you know what, I think we can edit things down, we can make this a little bit sharper. Um, I'm not sure if that completely answers your question. There is no right or wrong length, I think, is the, the short of it.

No, that's good. How do you avoid— um, I just had Alan on, and so I was talking to him about this, this very thing. So it's top of mind. How do you avoid— there's some books that I've read where the topic was super interesting to me, and I read the first 2 chapters and they were phenomenal. And then the rest of the book was just regurgitation of the first couple of chapters. And that's a common— not, not— I don't want to say common.

It happens.

I've seen that before to where it's like, oh, you know, it just got so watered down. I mean, I got the first— I got the concept in the first, in the first chapter or so. So what What are the elements of really writing a well-written business book to where— no, it is chock-full with a lot of information because again, I guess I'm coming at it from the perspective of you're not trying to be a Wall Street Journal bestseller. I mean, if that's your— if that's what you're trying to do, then that's a totally different thing versus I am wanting to gain trust in the marketplace. I want to grow my core business. I'm not trying to be an author. Right. I think if that's who you are, then that's a totally different thing. Um, but how do we write a book that people want to— can want to be able to finish as much as possible?

That comes down to planning. Um, so it sounds like some of the books that you may have read, they started out with a bang. They said, this is my goal, I'm going to do it, and they stuffed everything in the first 2 chapters. And they said, oh, what are we gonna do with the rest of it? It becomes a rehash. I've seen that. And, um, sometimes that comes from And it's not, you know, it's not wrong. It's just, it's the lack of knowledge that you do really need to sit down and blueprint your book, especially if you have a business journey book that you're trying to write. Obviously, you're trying to solve, you know, overarching— what is the problem that you're trying to solve for your reader if you're writing a business book? Or what service are you trying to tell them about? How are you better than your competition? Those are usually the 3 things that you're looking at, and then you build your book around it. So The temptation, and, and I've seen this, can be to just stuff it all in the first two. The trick is that you don't want to overwhelm your reader, and you don't want them leaving you after the second chapter. So, um, this can be where it helps to have maybe an editor, developmental editor, come in and say, all right, you've mentioned this part of the problem that you're trying to solve here in chapter one, maybe just mention it here, and then you create a whole new chapter in chapter three about it. Right. So then you have the opportunity to build that out. It's something new. It's something that the author— excuse me, the reader can look forward to from chapter 1, but you're not boring them with repeated content in chapter 3. So that really just kind of comes down to planning and knowing your audience, knowing your reader. Another example, I would say if you're an entrepreneur and it's more— it's a business book, but it's also part memoir, as you mentioned, because sometimes it is about the person and how they came to this. I would say you want to maybe add another chapter about how you came to this, uh, business or this product or this service. So there is going to be a little bit of this self-involved in one of those chapters, or maybe even two. Uh, sometimes I've found that some business owners, um, you know, if there was a problem or there was a stumbling block or a failure, a lot of readers find value in that because the, the great question is, how did you overcome that? Um, or the multiple failures. And sometimes some authors don't want to talk about those failures, but I find that those can be the most rewarding and the most interesting for, for readers. So, um, be open with your, your readers and tell them, this is what happened, this wasn't perfect, I learned from it. That's the key. If you can show that you learned from that, then that's going to pay dividends to your readers.

So let's get to whether I should write it myself or hire a ghostwriter. So somebody's listening to this thinking about maybe considering writing a book at this point. It's at least in their head now. They're like, well, how am I going to do it? Am I going to find the time? Or what is that going to look like to be able to outsource that writing a book to someone? Can you capture my essence of who I am and my story, etc.? Talk about the— maybe that the differences between, between the two, and what does it actually look like to work with a ghostwriter?

Uh, well, so working with a ghostwriter can be like a 9-month marriage. We hear everything, and with non-disclosures, we don't share any of it with anybody, but it can be intense. Um, in terms of time, so in my experience working on these books, if we're looking at like a general length and you know, history and trajectory of the author writing the book, you're looking at about 200 hours all in. So if you're doing this on your own, um, and you're, you're going to write and you're going to run your business at the same time, I would say conservatively look at a minimum of 200 hours that you're going to need to set aside to get this book written. And that doesn't include editing and proofreading and putting together your marketing plan. This is just words on the page. So that is also the amount of time that you might be spending with a ghostwriter. Um, And the thing about working with a ghostwriter is they're going to ask questions that sound super dumb, and that is generally because they are not the experts. It is not their voice, it is not their words. They're there to facilitate the writing of a book, uh, and that, that, that is how you know you've got a good ghostwriter— somebody who's actively listening. It's hard. It— and I mean, you do this every day on your podcast, to listen and to hear the nuggets and then to ask the probing follow-up question takes practice. This is— it's not like an entry-level thing. It takes time to, to do that. Another thing, if you're going to work with a ghostwriter, is to know that they can hear your voice, and, and there's an orality. And, you know, if you read a book, you can say, oh, that sounds like so-and-so. Um, or he— I, I know I worked with somebody once who wanted to sound on the page like they sounded when they spoke. They wanted those to be symbiotic. And so that was an interesting challenge, and not so unusual, but it's something to keep in mind. So if you know, for example, that you have a little bit of a sarcastic sense of humor and you want that in the book, you gotta communicate that with your ghostwriter. Sometimes when you're getting information or you're sharing information, you may not be sarcastic in the moment, right? You might just be sharing the details that you want to go in the book. So that's another thing. I, I would say if you also decide to work with a ghost, some folks are, um, hesitant to critique a ghostwriter when they get samples. And it's, it's interesting because I've worked with folks who say, well, you're the expert, you know what you're supposed to be writing. And then I'll say, but look, I'm giving you this chapter for review. I'm not asking you to edit it for grammar or spelling or anything like that because it's, it's clean. What I'm looking for is voice. I'm looking for— and especially in the first chapter. So if you're working with a ghost, the first chapter that they send you is the most important because that is where they're still trying to pin down your voice and make sure that they're using the phrases and the types of syntax and the flow that reflects you. So I always tell clients, I want you to be vicious. I want you to get out the strikethrough on your word processor, or if you're, you know, if you're writing it out in your pencil, and redline things that do not sound like you. Because I've got a sense after we've spoken for a while how I think you want to sound. But we want to nail that down in the first chapter so that the following chapters are as smooth as possible. Now, if you're doing this on your own, it can— of course, it can be a little challenging if you're not sure how you sound or how, you know, you want to sound. Is it— does it match up? I will say, for DIY Book, the new company that I founded, it— the business book format is very prescriptive in the sense that you know, unlike a life story where you can kind of bounce around, you can talk about personal life, you can talk about your family, whatever, um, with the business book journey, I find that there is a, a sequence of events that works best. Kind of answers your question from a little earlier, um, you know, how do I know what to write about? You know, where do you start? Why are you the authority to write this book? And in that, I also provide some, some questions on tone, on voice, on presentation, so that the author who's doing this on their own can actually think about things that maybe they hadn't thought about before. You may have somebody who did not know that they wanted to sound funny or wanted to be super serious, and, and there are ways to suss that out if you're not used to doing that, so that you, you, your book accurately reflects you on the printed page.

Yeah, I, I I definitely have seen, so I've tested internally. I've written 4 or 5 CEO memos internally to the team, and then I've posted some long-form stories in our community a few times. I enjoyed it, but it definitely was much harder because what was in my mind as if I was recording, say, a Loom video. And I was going to say something and I was just going to work through my bullet points, as opposed to if I was actually putting it down on paper, it was a challenge because it wasn't, it wasn't coming out with the same tone. Now, I think it actually ended up being better because with speaking, a lot of times I will take longer to get a message out as opposed to writing. I feel like forces me into saying it a lot shorter, more concise, with fewer words, etc. I think the quip I've heard is, if I had more time, I would have said less, or something to that effect, right? Which is, I think, the part of the editing process that is the most important, which is what we, what we actually cut out. So you're, you're right about that. So, so I want to verify. So roughly, if, if I was going to write a 30,000-word— and I've never done this before. So if somebody has— loves writing, they write often, that's a different deal. But I've never done this before. And if I was going to do that myself and I said, I'm going to give myself 12 months to be able to get this thing, the manuscript done, it's in a Google Doc, I can actually give it to someone. How much time do I need to allocate every week, roughly, to be able to do that versus if I was going to work with a ghost? Which is interesting to say, by the way. My kids listen to this, they'll be like, what are you talking about working with a ghost?

Who are you talking to?

But working with a ghost to, to do the exact same thing. What does that, what does that actually look like time-wise?

Time-wise, it's going to depend. So a 30,000-word book, that's 120— like, if you're thinking of an 8.5 by 11, 120 pages or so, 60 single-spaced. Of course, that's all going to change when it actually is formatted and it ends up in a book. Is it going to be an 8.5 by 11? It's going to be a 4 by 9. Anyway, that's a side topic. How much time? If you're working with the ghost, as I mentioned, I would say the floor is 200 hours. How you end up using That, um, that could vary. You might, for example, have weeks where you are— you, you're— you can do your interviews with your ghost. Ideally, a good ghost is going to give you a chapter-by-chapter outline, a table of contents ahead of time, so that when you go to have your interviews, um, you know what you're going to be talking about so that you can prepare. You can share data with your ghost. Um, I've worked with folks who were very, very busy but then had a week where they they, they could devote to interviews for the book. So we did a week where it was every day for an hour and a half we talked, and then I didn't hear from them for a little while because I was on the back end. I was doing the writing and revisions. So that's one thing, um, you might find. So, so it could depend if you give yourself a deadline. So for example, if you say January 1st, by December I'm going to have a book and it's going to be 30,000 words, um, then you can sort of backtrack and you can look at your calendar and say, all right, I know that quarter 3 is really busy, so maybe I don't want to be in the research phase then. Maybe I want to be by that time editing, uh, you know, so it might vary from person to person and community to community. Um, I hope that answers your question.

Yeah, it does. So then that led me to, uh, I think I heard Stephen Bartlett, host of the Diary of a CEO podcast. His book Diary of a CEO, which is not, is not based on his podcast, but it's based on his experience. One of the things that he did, and he, he did a writing retreat. I don't know where he went, but he went somewhere like in Bali, you know.

I mean, sounds nice.

He's Stephen Bartlett, so he can do it. But, but he did that, and he, and he just that was the only thing he was focused on for 3 to 4 to 5 days, knocked it out. Of course, it went to someone who then did the editing or whatever, but, but instead of trying to find the 4 to 5 hours a week, and then there's discipline around that, etc., and trying to— he was like, no, I'm just going to do it this way. Have you had people do that, and what is your experience with that?

Um, maybe not to the extent where they went to a— so I'm not sure what Stephen Bartlett did. He— it sounds like he went with the community, or he went by himself, and just—

he went by himself.

Yeah, he which sounds lovely. I have worked with folks who have sequestered themselves, and I guess you could call it a retreat, maybe for a weekend or something, and said, I'm going to work on this now and nobody's going to bother me. I've seen it. I think for maybe small business owners, that can be difficult to achieve. So if you can do that, amazing. I know for myself, if I'm by myself, I find things to distract me if I'm working on my personal writing. If I'm working for other people, you know, it's, it's a job, so it's not the case. But if I'm working on something for personal writing, there's always something to do. Even if I'm by myself, I'll go look out the window. I want to go for a walk. So I think you have to consider your personality as well. If you find that you can hold yourself accountable when you're by yourself better than if you're distracted by a lot of things, that's amazing. But I guess to each their own. I'm sure Stephen Bartlett found it to be very useful.

Yeah. Yeah. Cool. Barbara, this has been— this has been fascinating. I've learned a ton. I know that this has been really educational for our listening audience. People want to connect with you, your team, about the different ways that someone that's listening can connect with you and find out about kind of what you do so you can help them. To get that book out of them, where would you point them to?

Well, if they want to find out more about DIYbook, they can go to DIYbook.us. We have a business book module there for folks. We have a 7-day free trial. If they want to find me on Instagram, I'm @DIYbookHQ. In Ink Ghostwriting is my ghostwriting company, so that's InInkGhostwriting.com. And I also host a podcast where we talk about the writing process and we interview authors and editors and movers and shakers and that sort of thing. And that's Writing for Immortality. And that's at, on Instagram, writing the number 4 immortality. And, um, that's, that's pretty much where you can find me. And if you kind of Google my name, you'll find some of the stuff that I've written under my own byline.

Awesome. Barbara, great having you on.

Thank you so much, Bradley. This has been wonderful.

Very good. That was, that was wonderful. Thank you so much. Hopefully that was a great experience for you.

That was great. That was— I hope you got everything you needed. I have a tendency to ramble and I have to like rein it in.

So no, I don't think you did at all. No, I, I, that, that was never— that was not at all, um, something I was thinking about. I don't think, um, I don't feel, feel that you rambled in any way, shape, form, or fashion. So it was a wonderful Wonderful.

Thank you.

Yeah, that was great. Um, I learned, learned a lot, really did, uh, learn a lot myself. And, uh, whenever— I've got some other projects that we're working on right now, but, uh, uh, I am genuinely have a book that I want to get out in me. I have yet to make the commitment myself. Um, it's not that I, I know that there's never going to be a perfect time, but I'm like, okay, wait a minute, there's never a perfect time.

That's true. Well, I hope you'll come on my podcast and we'll talk about it.

Oh, that'd be great. Yeah, talk about—

actually be fascinating to talk about the process when you're running different enterprises and then finding the time. That would be amazing.

Yeah. Well, whenever, whenever I genuinely make the, the leap to say, okay, like, I mean, I'm looking at it right now. I pulled it up while we were talking. I mean, I have a book manuscript, Google Document, and I was just kind of like scanning over it of— I mean, it's too well, it says 7 pages, but actually what a lot of that actually was, to your point, was, uh, um, otter. I, I, I would go on a walk and I would begin to just throw things in and talk about, about something. And, and I really should consider doing that more because I think where I probably personally fall is I'm going to likely want to do something like that because I get so much inspiration from the coaching calls that I'm on when I work with other business owners. And those find their way into solo podcasts that I do on here, and then they'll find their way into different places. But I also need to consider putting it like, okay, hey, that's assets. And it's going to end up being way more words than what it needs to, but there's a lot of threads that can get pulled from some of those. Because I think I, I have kind of a structure and some principles that I fundamentally believe in. And so I think it's almost like I want to do a hybrid. It's like I want to, I want to speak it, I want to take it, condense it, and then I want to work with someone to say like, okay, like, here's what I got, you know. I'm not starting completely from zero, but like the editing it down into finding like, that's actually a really good story, but that needs more depth and nuance to it. Whereas that story is just a bunch of fluff, like cut it down. That could be 3 sentences, you know? It's like, oh, okay. That makes a lot of sense. I think it's almost like I want to work with someone, but not start from scratch, if that makes sense.

Yeah. And a lot of people do that. Um, It can, it can go both ways for a ghost. If you're working with a bunch of material and the client, that can— it's amazing. It's always great to have more material. The trick, of course, is to make sure that everyone is happy. Yeah. But it is preferable than starting with a blank slate. But I think you're on the right track. If you, if you're gathering the information, I would say just kind of do a brain dump and then worry about format afterwards. If it sounds like you have a sense of if they're like principles that you want to discuss, those could be their own chapters.

Yeah.

Um, and I also, considering the audience, um, if you're afraid that it's too long, it might be. Hmm.

Yeah. Yeah, for sure. For sure. But yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

The last thing I would say is wherever you have the opportunity to include personal narrative, especially in business books, um, it just makes it that more engaging and you're just more likely to have a reader actually turn a page. Um, Sometimes it's hard, sometimes you can't, but when you can, um, even if it's not about you and it's something that you've heard, as long as it's not like the Southwest business story— I see that one so many times— um, you're going to really make your readers happy.

Yeah, for me, I, I think that the way that I would write is I would write from the perspective of, here's how I— here's all the things I messed up on here's a lot of the mistakes that I made. Here's what I've learned. I hope this serves you. Yeah, I really don't love the, the, um, even if it's not explicitly said, I don't like the, you should do this, you should do this. I like it more of like, this is the mistakes I made, this is what I've learned, this is what I do, this is what we do now. Specifically, I'm an operating system guy. That's what I believe in. Make the business less dependent upon you. You got to build something that's outside of you. That thing is an operating system. That's what I did. That's what I learned. That's the story I want to be able to tell. I want to help somebody go from being the rainmaker of their business to becoming the architect of their business. That's the whole nugget.

That's a mindset shift.

Yeah, that's the— that it— if in fact, as a matter of fact, it is a mindset shift initially. It's like you got to make— first see yourself as an architect. And then at that point, okay, if I see myself that way, then what do I do? Well, you've got to actually go design, build, and install an operating system. Okay, that's interesting. What is that? This is how you do it. This is how you structure it. This is, you know, and so that's the, that's the, that's the hook. That's the narrative. However that needs to get, you know, said. And, but I don't want it to be like, you should do this. It's like, this is what I did. This really helped me. This may help you too. Does that make sense?

You know, it does. And that's going to come down to tone.

Exactly.

Absolutely. It's going to come down to the voice, one, and absolutely the second part's tone. And that can take— that can be really hard to hear sometimes. It's just sometimes it's nice to just give it to somebody who's not involved with it and just say, can you read maybe this little chapter here for me? Half of it. I'll get you a cup of coffee. How do I sound? Am I being proscriptive? Right. You don't want that. And yet you want them to be able to take what they're learning and apply it. But it's more of a nudge and not a shove. And that's hard. That can be really hard to achieve.

So that's right. That's right. That's right. Because, I mean, you have to show the before and then you have to show the after. But just who I am, I know. I mean, there's some people that I even, you know, look up to that I've read their books. But there's times where I'm like, you're coming across braggadocious. I mean, you know, and I get you're showing what's possible, but you've shown this, the fifth supercar, like, I got it, you know? And, and there's like this balance with that, you know, like, like I get people anyway.

Well, so for some people that is their personality. Um, having, having helped out with some of these books, sometimes that, that is, you're getting, you know, you're getting the person behind the pages.

And that's fine. That's just not who I am.

Right, right. You get more flies with honey, as they say.

That's right. That's right. You've been great. Thank you so much.

Thank you so much, Bradley. This was wonderful.

Well, I really enjoyed that podcast with Barbara. You know, we try to come at business from as many different angles as we possibly can. And you think about, you know, Alex, one of our podcast partners, has written a couple books. And I know that many of you there's a small segment of you that may be considering writing a book, and we really focused today's episode on business podcasts— or excuse me, business books. But many of you may also have a life story that you want to be able to get out. So I encourage you to go and check out everything that they have going on, diybook.us. Connect with Barbara on Instagram and LinkedIn. And I think that if today maybe has at least spurred you to begin to get it out, I think everybody does have a story. And for me, I am considering working on my very first book to share a story. And it is daunting initially to, you know, who am I to write a book, etc.? But I also know that I want to be able to serve. And I think that for me personally is that the way I've processed it is is, you know, if I, if I'm doing this podcast and coaching programs, etc., to help people, then if a book is able to be done once, put in those kind of hours, done well, that can help one person, then it's worth it. Because if I make it about me, then that's being selfish, as opposed to making it about just helping and serving other people. And so even as I'm kind of saying this, it's, it's raised my commitment to wanting to begin to look at putting it inside my perfect repeatable week. And perfect repeatable week is a concept of kind of laying out your— what, what is your perfect repeatable week? And so I need to— I would need to make some adjustments. I, I don't think a book writing retreat is something that I personally would do. I think it's maybe something that would potentially be one or two of those to, to get it across the finish line, potentially, but not something that I would do to to try to write the book in an entire weekend. But if I wanted to get started or make progress or even finish the book, then possibly I would do that. But if I put the 3 to 4 hours in every week and could just focus and build that habit and make it about serving and not make it about myself, then I— hopefully, maybe even me just sharing that with you will make you consider potentially putting your book out into the marketplace. So connect with Barbara in her team. As always, thank you to our podcast sponsors: Club Capital, Autopilot Recruiting, Coach Pete Consulting, and Today App Pro. Barbara mentioned a couple of different, um, you know, there's tools out there, Otter AI as an example, and, and having tools in your toolbox as a business owner is key. And one of the tools I would consider that is essential for you to have is an incredible tool that helps you to manage all your compensation in your bonus plans, and a tool that you can put in custom WordTracks. It's going to be great for your team and great for you. And that tool is TodayApp. Go to todayapppro.com, todayapppro.com, reach out, book in a call with someone, get away from the spreadsheets, the Google Sheets, the Excel spreadsheets, to track all of that, have it all in one single system that's going to sync with your corporate-approved CRM. I mentioned it a minute ago, but Alex has written two fantastic books on recruiting. You can go to their website, go to autopilotrecruiting.com. But also, if you want to work with someone and have an incredible team and even a bench. I've mentioned this, uh, one of our clients has been working with Autopilot Recruiting. He had some turnover, and instead of that being a 2-month gap, it was reduced down to 2 weeks. Why? Because he had a bench. He actually had proven the idea of always being— be recruiting, which many of you have heard before. But how do you actually execute on that? You work with a recruiter on your behalf on a monthly basis. Autopilotrecruiting.com. In my model, when I think about team, I think about how do you attract, how do you develop, and how do you retain A-players. Autopilot Recruiting can help you to attract A-players, but once you get them on the team, you got to manage performance, you got to deepen their knowledge. And one of the ways to do that is to work with Coach P. Go to coachpconsulting.com. Not only will you, as the agency owner, owner get a once-a-month call with just agency owners trying to do the exact same thing as you are. But in addition to that, your team can jump on the calls, and that is incredibly valuable to be able to get to both. I personally just work with small business owners across the country, but with Coach P, you also get his network and you get access to his team, and your team can be on these calls to learn what are the actual deep word tracks that are working, what are the things that were working before but aren't working, uh, maybe anymore now, things that they've had to pivot on because of the changing landscape. CoachPConsulting.com. You know, every action in business ultimately finds its way down to your financials. I was just talking to a business owner yesterday about this and shared with him, look, at the end of the day Every decision you make, whether you hire someone, don't hire someone, do this marketing, invest this money in, in, in ads, et cetera, whatever it may be, ultimately all those decisions make them— what— their way down to one thing. And that one thing is your financials. Go to club.capital. They can help you to get above the business and help you to see your financials from a perspective you may not have yet. Club capital. Hey, if you'd like to learn more about me, what we do to help you design, build, and install an operating system for your business so it's less dependent upon you, go to blueprintos.com, blueprintos.com. And if you can navigate to the asset library on there, you'll see some free tools that we have that are totally free of charge to be able to help you in your journey to building an operating system. All right everyone, great episode. Till next time, lead well. Thank you team, have a great day.