Learning the Business End of Business with Brian Kiley

You need to carve some time out every week and look at the business from above it and quit just being in it. Otherwise, you're never going anywhere. You're just going to keep running in circles the whole time.

Today's episode, it is a business blueprint episode with Bron Kiley.

Before you just jump all in, all crazy, step back and decide what you want your company to be and who you want to be. In other words, decide what your culture is and decide how you're going to do things before you just start doing them. I will not respond to an email or phone conversation that makes me want to just put my head down and charge any sooner than 24 hours. I won't. I would say, look, getting to that stuff down the road next week is going to be getting to that stuff down the road next week, and you're just going to keep repeating that yourself.

Brian Kiley, welcome to the Above the Business podcast.

Hey, thanks. I'm happy to be here.

Excited to have you. Okay, so take our listening audience back just a little bit. Tell them a little bit about your journey as a business owner. This is a Business Blueprint episode where in 2026 we're starting to bring real deal business owners. Uh, we love being able to bring on some thought leaders and experts in certain areas, but we also wanted to start to, to bring in real deal business owners at different levels. Okay. Whether it's in that first few hundred thousand in revenue all the way up to somebody around a million and then up to 2 or 3 million and then beyond. Because I think that there is a slightly different blueprint to follow depending on kind of where, where you are. And so we'll dive into some of the things that you've learned in your career as a small business owner and kind of even where you're hoping to take things over the next handful of years. But Take a listening audience back just a little bit, bring us to present day. How'd you get started?

You know, it's funny because I knew you were going to ask this question, and I've always struggled with this question, and here's why. As I look back over my career, it seems like it was all these pieces. And I used to sit, as I've gotten into my mid to late 50s, and go, like, why all this hopping around? I could never tie it all together. But really, until recently, have I been able to do that? You know, what I figured out is I've always just had a desire to serve people at the highest level. So really, coming out of college, my main goal in life was to be a physical therapist, and I didn't get into physical therapy school, and I land in a bike shop as a service guy. Well, I did that so well, I was service manager, and then, you know, I bet on myself and I moved to a different industry, and it happens again. And so, I've just always gone to where I've found an opportunity to serve people and I've never been afraid to bet on myself and I've always wanted to aspire to a higher level. So, I've worked in a bike shop. I've sold commercial and retail exercise equipment. I founded a nonprofit ministry that served the homeless in Minneapolis and St. Paul. I have delivered exercise equipment. I've sold life insurance. I've done all kinds of stuff. I just, I just love to serve people, really. And I, I would say now what I finally learned is that all the roads have pointed to where I am right now.

Where do you think that the first thought was to not just bet on yourself in the general sense, but actually bet on yourself and put your, you know, career behind it of actually being a small business owner? Was there a a book, a conversation, uh, a podcast you listen to that— the— that— yeah, I mean, for me it was a— it was a conversation at the golf course, of which of all places, of course, that would be is where it is. But I mean, that's where it was. Somebody put the idea in my head. I mean, maybe I thought about it, you know, previously, but I was like, I don't know, I'm— I'm not gonna be a farmer like my dad, right? But it was a conversation, um, you know, right before I played golf on a Friday when I should have been working, but I wasn't. I was kicking off on a Friday and that's when it started. But for me. But what was it for you?

Yeah, I— it was a— it was a man that I worked for when I was in my late 20s who saw my skill set, pulled me aside, mentored me. And what he said to me at one point is he said, you have a skill set, you have a way with people, you have a a great ability to put pieces of a puzzle together. You ask the right questions. And so I trust you to do this. And it got to the point where he said, I want you to run this company for me. And so he just, he breathed in me and got me to believe in myself. I think I just almost did things by accident at that point. But when you have, when you have somebody older than you come in and say, I see you, you're doing the right things, I believe in you, I trust you, and I'm gonna, I'm gonna give you this responsibility. Well, that just can really light a fire under somebody.

Oh yeah, totally. Yeah, for sure. What are some of the things that you have learned? Well, first of all, to be, uh, let's give somewhat of an idea. How long have you been in business, Brian?

Oh, 30, 35 years now, I would say.

Okay, gotcha. And the business that you own currently, how long have you owned this business?

The insurance agency that I own now is coming up on 3 years.

Okay. So for someone that is in that first 3 to 5 years, and in fact, I probably would say maybe that first 3 to 6 years, you, you know how much we talk about and value, uh, 3-year visions. So they've kind of gone through the first one. They're going into their next 3 years. So that first 6 years or so, what are some of the things that you've learned, not just in this 3 years of business, but even prior to that, that you can look back on and say, man, I really wish someone had sat me down and said, oh, you're going into business. Okay, great. Come get coffee with me. Bring your notebook. Okay, well, good, because we're going to sit down. We're going to, we're going to talk about these things. I had some people do that for me, but way later into my career. Yeah, I was 5 and 6 years into it before somebody pulled me by the ear and said, hey, young fella, you got ambition all over the place, but you're running around like a chicken with a head of cauliflower. Like, come here and sit down. Let me show you how to do this. What are some of those elements for you?

Yeah, I mean, I have 3 things that pop right into my head. The first one is at a point when somebody said to me, Brian, you need to quit being such a bull in a china shop. I mean, I was just hard charging and I was always fair and honest with people, but I was hard charging, burnt some bridges and some relationships, I'm sure, in doing that. And so I wish somebody would've just said, settle down and take the long-term view rather than always focusing on what's right in front of your face. That would've been really helpful. The second one I wish somebody would've told me was, look, Brian, you need to step out of the whirlwind that's gonna be these first 3 to 5 years in the business. I mean, you gotta build this thing. You need to create revenue. You're gonna be wearing 7 different hats. You need to carve some time out every week and look at the business from above it and quit just being in it. Otherwise, you're never going anywhere. You're just going to keep running in circles the whole time. And the last one would be, and this has been a real recent, I mean, I'm going to be 60 next year and I'm still learning this stuff. I would say to somebody younger, before you just jump all in, all crazy, step back and decide what you want your company to be and who you want to be. In other words, decide what your culture is and decide how you're going to do things before you just start doing them. 'Cause once I stepped back at that point and said, all right, what are my core values here? What am I anchoring everything we do in? What's going to permeate how we deal with every situation from a claim to somebody who's really unhappy 'cause the rates have gone up to whatever the case is? How are we going to handle that? And what's our culture going to be?

So let me ask a question on that one.

Yeah.

Let me ask a question on that one. I don't intend to interrupt to be rude at all, by no means. But how would someone have been able to talk to you early on about something like core values and convinced you that it was worth the time? And what I mean by that is go back to the hard-charging bull in a china shop. That was me too, by the way. Okay. I absolutely ruined some relationships with employees, handled some things that I look back on and truthfully cringe, and even have in subsequent years reached out to people to try to make some things right to the best of our ability. I did not handle those things right, et cetera.

Yeah.

But somebody listening to this, yeah, that core value stuff, that's really good. Hey man, I gotta make payroll Friday. Core value's not going to pay my payroll. So, Lake, how did you get convinced of the value of that and kind of where you are and maybe somebody else that's thinking like, yeah, that sounds good. I'll get to that stuff down the road.

I would say, look, getting to that stuff down the road next week is going to be getting to that stuff down the road next week. And you're just going to keep repeating that to yourself. Now, I get it. You got to make payroll Friday. I've been there. I've sweated through that. That is probably not the time to go on a day and a half retreat up in the woods in northern Minnesota and try and sit down and sketch out your core values. So don't try and do this thing all at once. That's why if you, if I would say if you could carve out that specific time every week, make that an appointment on your calendar, honor it, have some, have some, uh, be truthful to yourself and hold your own appointments. Doesn't need to be 4 hours. I don't care if it's 30 minutes. Just go work on this a little bit at a time. Once it starts to come, it's going to come and it'll get easier. It's just getting over that initial hump. From there, payroll's still going to be payroll, but eventually you're going to get through that and then you're going to be really glad you've taken the time to decide, all right, how are we doing things? How, what am I going to hold all my employees accountable to as far as the way they talk to people on the phone? Or what's our client onboarding process? We just throw stuff around, or do we really want that to be a first-class experience? So take it a little bit at a time because you're not going to figure it out in one 4-hour block, you know.

That's true. That's a good point.

Yeah.

So then what are some of the things that you've done to not be a bull in a china shop? In other words, I think people can get that conceptually, but then what are the things that you've been able to do to be maybe more, uh, thoughtful and measured as opposed to, as I typically say, which is from my Alabama roots, run around like a chicken with my head cut off.

I've had to instill my own 24-hour response rule. I will not respond to an email or phone conversation that makes me want to just put my head down and charge any sooner than 24 hours. I won't. And, that has saved me on multiple occasions. If anybody learned one thing wearing that, if you're going, "Yeah, I'm that bull," give yourself the 24-hour response rule. It'll save you a lot of heartache and trouble. In addition to that, and this took some practice, it took a long time, but when I'm sitting in front of somebody, I used to constantly, back of my head, go, "Look at it from their point of view. Sit over on that side of the desk. Look at it from their point of view." And then you get out of what, I mean, you, you're forgetting about payroll. It doesn't go away, right? You still gotta make it, but now you're saying, I'm gonna serve this person. How can I see it from their point of view? And then just, you know, good things follow good things. You treat people right, it's all gonna work out in the end.

Yeah, for sure. What are some of the things that you've learned about business and growth? I mean, whether it's You're an insurance agency owner. You're a digital marketing company. Um, you know, I work with a behavioral therapy company. They've been in business, uh, where they own the business for 7 years. Prior to that, they were work— uh, 3 female founders were working, uh, for another company locally, and they work with, um, children and families with autism. Okay. They're certified BCBAs. Do you think I know anything about that? Like what they do? I mean, I know a little bit, but I think you'd be surprised about how little I actually know about that, the day-to-day part of what they do. And I've worked with them for 7 years. 7 years. Now again, I do know, but What we work on is the business end of business. What are the business things, the business end of business that you have learned that you would also pass along? Like maybe some very, you know, some frameworks, concepts, et cetera, that have helped you to be able to learn business and that has helped you to be better at your, in your role as owner of your company.

Yeah, the thing I've really learned and I've really been focusing on is learning how to build out scoreboards and scorecards. And I was always the one that would look at all the lag measures, you know, hey Tommy, here's your sales goal for the month. And on the 30th, well, Tommy, you didn't hit your sales goal. Why not? I mean, total lag measure conversation. And I've learned just from groups I've been in and obviously 40x and other books. But let's go back and look at the activity. And then let's build a scorecard around that so we don't get to the 30th. I'd much rather start the conversation off on the 5th of the month when we're behind or ahead of those measures and micro-correct the whole way down. Because the other thing I've learned is that tells me exactly where the problem is. You can pinpoint it or in a group of people, you can see exactly where the weak link is if you have something that you're constantly measuring against. Otherwise, you get to the end of the month and you're just purely guessing. So that would be one thing. And then I've worked really hard on trying to learn financials and being able to have intelligent financial conversations more than just reading a P&L and going straight to the profit line and going, boy, I hope there's enough left because I'd like to take some out of this thing.

Sometimes 3/4, right?

But same kind of thing. What scorecard? So, you know, what I've started to learn is now we even need to go deeper. So, all right, well, what's my true customer acquisition cost? What's my marketing spend as a percentage of revenue? Like, what are we doing here? So, it's not only, you know, building scorecards for employees and other people, it's building one for yourself, being financially responsible for your company. Just allows you to make way better decisions, have way better conversations, be more apt to be able to, to go after certain opportunities. Um, it's just growing as a business owner.

Yeah, you know, I heard a, um, just to— I mean, I'll give full credit to the person I heard it from. They, they, um, it was actually on a podcast earlier today, Brian, that they said They were using Tom Brady and the analogy, kind of talking about financials. They said Tom Brady is one of the greatest defensive minds in football of all time. Defensive. He wasn't on the defense. He was clearly the quarterback. And I think to myself, this is exactly how we can look at financials. You're not trying to be the CPA. You got a CPA, you got a bookkeeper for those kind of things. But there does have to be a certain amount of awareness, maybe not at the Tom Brady type level, of you can't just abdicate some of those things. I don't know, I don't understand that. I'll just throw it over to somebody else to be able to do it. And I've definitely seen that in you where you've leaned into kind of learning some of the scoreboards, scorecards, uh, understanding financials, etc. Um, Have you had this experience where you learn something? You know, we've talked about maybe some, whether they're marketing metrics or business metrics, customer acquisition cost, you know, lead-to-sale ratio, things of that nature. As you've learned through some of those things, whether you've read them, et cetera, what are the things that you do to take the learning and actually go and implement some of the things? Okay, because I mean, I got a lot of books over there. I hadn't implemented all of those books. Some of them I'm glad I haven't, but I mean, what have you been able to do in the things that you learn from wherever source and actually go and implement them?

Oh, that's a great question. And I'm still working on that because it's difficult because we get information from all different angles, right? I could be listening to a podcast in my car. And there's that one sentence and I'm like, what do I do with this? Like, do I pull over and write it down? Is there a button I can push? And then, you know, it might be from a business meeting you're in or you hear something somewhere. You know, I don't exactly understand completely this second brain term. I haven't gone down that rabbit hole, but I have worked really hard in getting my tech stack and my analog stack down cold so that when I hear something or something, when I put something somewhere, I know where to go find it again. And so I'm, I'm, I've, I've played around with this, that, and I've had to get rid of a bunch of noise and I've tried to keep it simple, but everything goes in a slot now. And so I have a very clear folder structure because you're right. I, I mean, what were we talking about the other day? Let's see. I hope I don't slaughter this one. Long-term gross profit value as a ratio to customer acquisition cost.

Yeah, LTV, GP to CAC.

Yeah. So I'm like, I don't need that right now, but I, I'm going to need it later. I have a feeling. So it gets filed in financials. It just goes in a folder like financial, and then I can just search. That's the thing I've had to learn. You just go in and search. I can just put in CAC and it's still going to pop up. So You just got to know where you're going to put things to find them, um, later. Because there's nothing worse than calling somebody— and I've done this to you— and saying, hey, you mentioned something, I can't find it, can you find it for me? I mean, come on, you got to have some personal responsibility in that. Yeah, so it's just matter— it's having a good— it's having a good system for knowing where you're putting stuff, because you're going to hear all kinds of stuff. Um, as far as putting it in play, I mean And honestly, that just plugs right back into taking some time every week where you're looking at your business like you're flying over it and you're going, okay, I heard this this week, this this week, like, where do I plug this in? And then get it on a calendar or wherever it's going to come up as a reminder to you. Because otherwise, again, you're just going to go right back in the whirlwind and it's going to be gone.

What are some of the things that you do on a personal leadership side? Like, we've kind of talked about the business end of business here, but I want to make sure that I ask you about what, what have you done to, you know, in our language, lead yourself first, and how and why has that been beneficial to you?

I've really struggled with this one, and, um, I have a standing weekly Zoom meeting with a friend of mine at 9:30. We both look so forward to that. Who knows what we're going to talk about? But I'll get to him and eventually he'll go, "How was your week?" And I'll say, "Well, it was supposed to be a good week, but I didn't do my weekly planning on Sunday night." And doggone, I know I'm supposed to do it and I don't do it. And every time I get to the end of a week where I go, "What happened? Where did all my time go?" It's because I wasn't on plans. So I, boy, if I could really nail something down, and I need to get better at this, it's got to be a Sunday night review planning session. It's just got to be. I take an hour every Thursday at a coffee shop to do my thinking time. I can sometimes venture into a little bit of fixing mode there. And I'll be honest with myself and decide if I'm just trying to get out of think deeply about something or if that's really good use of my time. That has helped a lot. I'm much more clear on the books I'm reading now, so I'm very intentional about them. I don't care what anybody else is reading. I'll ask people for what I should be reading, people who know me based on where I'm at. That's been super helpful. And then lastly, I would say, as far as leading myself, one of the ways I lead myself is by asking questions of people that are 2 or 3 years ahead of me. Who've been through somewhat recently where I've just been, and I'll say, what, what do you, what are you doing here? Or how have you handled this? Um, and seek advice that way just so that I'm a better person and I know where I'm going or how I should handle a situation.

I don't know why I haven't actually asked this question to more guests, and I, and, and honestly, I'm going to try to remind myself to do this, um, because I think it's fascinating for me to ask. So I Again, this just popped in my head and I don't know why I haven't asked this, but what books, resources, etc., have been instrumental in your journey, Brian?

Well, Four Disciplines of Execution was a big one. I mean, that whole Leg Lead Measure thing, just like the first time I read that, just blew me out of the water. I'm like, wow, that just makes so much sense. I can't I can't hardly believe it. Like you, I also really enjoyed The Road Less Stupid. Just that whole concept of thinking time and just even with the questions that were right in there that helped launch that for me was instrumental. And then beyond that, I really find that I tend to read a lot of industry-specific stuff and sales stuff. I'm fascinated by the whole sales process and how people do that. So, things from the SPIN Selling Method to all other kinds of sales methods. I've never jumped all entirely behind one, but I grab what fits my style and my personality. So, I'm kind of a— I'll read anything about that and I just enjoy that. And I really just think that stems from me trying to figure out how to best— I'm trying to be a salesperson without trying to be a salesperson. That's what I tell myself.

Yeah.

I really enjoy books like that, all kinds of them that have been helpful to me.

And any one in particular come to mind?

The first sales book I read in full where I really tried to adapt it was SPIN Selling.

Oh yeah.

And that was super helpful. Now, I probably haven't read that book. I don't know. Has it been 20 years? I don't remember how long that's been out. I think it was pretty fresh. It came out pretty soon and I'd read it pretty soon after that. And I've adapted and put out lots of other little bits and pieces in there. But, um, that was, that was the first one where I read where I really said, all right, let's try and make this somewhat of a repeatable system. You know, and as I remember, I think about that time was the first time, that was the first time I ever, yes, I got into a sales management position where it's a whole thing to know how to sell some to somebody. It's a whole nother thing to try and teach somebody else how to do it.

Yeah, that's true.

Right? So as I recall, that's when I read that book.

That's good. Ron, what does working above the business mean to you?

I mean, when I hear that, I envision I can't be in it, so I need to be out of the office and I need to be above it. So I always call it the 60,000-foot view where I'm not I'm not down so granular, but I'm looking at the bigger moving pieces. So the example I would use is I'm not writing out a third quarter employee review. That's in it, but I'm above looking at my staff in its entirety going, are these the right people? What does next year maybe look like? Do I need to add, do I need more customer service people? It's bigger. It's moving, it's moving bigger pieces. It's moving bigger pieces.

Ron, if people want to connect with you personally, what's the best place for them to do that?

The place that I really love to connect with people, maybe I'm old school, is on LinkedIn. So on LinkedIn and I'm /BrianWKiley. I love to connect there and have conversations. I think almost any personality type of test I've ever taken has labeled me as a connector in some way, shape, or form. I think it's probably how I've gotten to where I've gotten today. And so, hey, maybe, maybe I can't help you, but hopefully if we connect at some point and you need something, I know somebody that could help you. I just— that makes my day.

That's awesome. Well, Brian, thanks for coming on the podcast. I've really loved getting to to know you over the years and to see the, the growth that you have been able to show, uh, in, in your professional endeavors and kind of what's coming down the road for you. I knew that you would, uh, be able to provide a lot of value for some of those business owners that, hey, these are some of the things that you've been able to learn around your journey and helping you to be able to grow your, your small business. Thanks for sharing today. And I was just kind of a couple of my recaps here. It's almost like we all start out like a bull in a china shop or running around like a chicken with a head cut off. And part of that is inevitable, but part of it is like it has to change at some point. It just has to change. I think they're talking about the importance of tracking. And if you have scoreboards and you have scorecards for your team members, it puts you right there where the numbers are. And then that forces you to start understanding numbers. Do I know what these numbers mean, et cetera? And then also just not shying away from the financials. So those are my biggest takeaways. Want to give a big shout out to our podcast sponsors, Coach B Consulting, Autopilot Recruiting, and DirectClicks. Go to directclicksinc.com/above-the-business, coachbconsulting.com, and autopilotrecruiting.com. They can help you to be able to find great team members, continue to develop those team members, and then obviously make sure that your marketing dollars are being put to good use. Ryan, thanks for coming on the podcast.

It was a pleasure. Thanks, Bradley.