#136: Rising To Your Highest And Best Decision With Sibyl Chavis

Welcome to The Conscious Pivot Podcast with international speaker, business mentor, bestselling author of Pivot, and your host, Adam Markel. The Conscious Pivot shares the stories and wisdom of people who have successfully reinvented some area of their business and personal life. You'll gain powerful insights into how you can fully embrace new opportunities, increase your performance, and master the art and science of innovation and resilience. So please join Adam as he guides you on your conscious pivot.

Hey, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of the Conscious Pivot Podcast. I'm your host, Adam Markel, and I feel incredibly blessed in this moment to be sharing time with all of you, to be sharing time with an incredible guest who I'm going to introduce you to in just a couple of seconds. But I am taking this moment for myself right now, selfishly going to Be grounded, breathing, feeling alive now. That just feels great. I know some of you watching on YouTube, you see I'm just closing my eyes and smiling ear to ear. I've got so many wonderful things to feel great about, as we all do, and also life challenges, things that catch us off guard, things that blindside us. I got blindsided Just a couple of days ago with a little physical thing. I was out surfing. I mean, that doesn't sound like too much of a problem except when your back goes out. And I was riding on— literally standing up on a wave and my back went out on me. And of course, totally my doing, my creating in so many ways. I was exhausted. I was running myself, sort of burning the candle on all ends. Some of us know what that's like. And that's an old habit of mine. That's an old default mode, and I was pushing. I just kind of pushed it just for one more thing I wanted to get in for the day, and I wanted to be in the water. And all that made sense. I knew I needed to get to the salt, as someone said to me recently. And yet I didn't stretch. I didn't take care of myself before getting into that environment. I took my body for granted. And I've done that before, so this was certainly not the first time, but a great reminder because it Flattened me, literally laid me out on my back for the better part of 24 hours. Resilience. It's the unsung hero in every success story that you will ever hear about. And in times of massive change and disruption, the kind of rapid change that we're all experiencing as leaders, as business owners, as entrepreneurs, we have to learn how to not only increase our own resilience, but that of our teams. So right now, we have a powerful opportunity for you to find out just how resilient you are. Some years ago, my team and I created the resilience assessment that more than 5,000 business leaders across the globe have taken. And all you have to do to get your own free resilience leader assessment is go to resiliencerank.com. It takes less than 3 minutes, and it's our gift to you for being the leader that you already are. Other free resources and tools will accompany your score instantly. So go to resiliencerank.com and find out just how resilient you are. And just thank the universe, thank God that we have amazing people around us, part of our team that have skills and abilities. And so I got kind of brought back. I got put on my feet with the help of some dear, lovely people in our lives. So I feel really grateful to be standing. I'm actually standing at my desk at this moment, which is terrific because literally 2 days ago, if we were having this conversation, I would have been flat on my back in my bed. So with that, I want to welcome an amazing woman. I'm going to read a little bit of her bio and then we're going to dig in because she's incredibly interesting. We have a lot of things in common. I already feel totally simpatico with this person and you're going to get to see why in just a couple of minutes. So her name is Sybil Chavez and she's a Harvard-trained lawyer who left her corporate jobs— sounds familiar to me— on the East Coast to create a life with greater clarity and purpose. Formerly an attorney at a leading law firm and executive vice president at an ad agency, Cybill is now the CEO and founder of her own agency, Ripple. Ripple is a marketing agency that partners with brands and companies in the social good and social innovation space. We'll dig into that, find out a little bit more about what that is. Cybill's primary focus is her work with Sounds True, where she heads up its business-to-consumer division. So with that, Sybil, welcome to the Conscious Pivot Podcast. Thanks for being a guest today.

Oh, thank you so much for having me. I'm so honored to be here.

Yeah, it's good to be able to create a space with someone and we've never met before. So this is—

No, we haven't.

Way cool to do that.

Way cool. Way cool.

And to find out we're both— well, I'm still a lawyer. I know you are too. I just don't practice anymore.

Right.

I retired from my practice about 10 years ago.

I still do a little bit of it, just kind of like occupational hazard, and it sometimes comes up for some of the clients that I'm working with, but mostly I'd say I'm retired too.

Yeah, exactly. I still use my legal training in terms

of

contract review, negotiations, so many things. I still use that all the time, and I speak quite frequently to lawyers groups, so I get hired to come in and sort of Unscrew them up or something. I don't know.

Right, right, right. Give them hope that there's other opportunities and paths forward.

Oh, it's so true. Yes. To show that there is light at the end of the tunnel. And frankly, what I will often say is, you know, I wrote a book called Pivot, which was my path out of practicing law, but not, not so much the practice of law, but more along the lines of practicing work that wasn't good for my soul. It just wasn't a right livelihood for me. I did it for 18 years very successfully. It wasn't a right livelihood and there are, I think, a lot of things I've learned since then that had I known, had I been given access to certain new information, had I had more of an awareness, self-awareness really, my consciousness had been broader, wider, I would have had other options. I'm probably, in looking at it, probably would have gotten out of the practice of law anyway. But the way that it went, it wouldn't have been as much of an urgency as it felt at the time. I felt literally like I needed to get out of that work because it was killing me.

Right.

And anything I think that has that level of urgency means necessarily take your time doing it. You know, it's sort of more—

Time to pivot.

A rush. Exactly.

Yes.

So share a little bit about your journey out of the law, because as I say, when I speak to lawyers today, it's often about the fact that they can choose to stay in the law. They really have to develop more resilience. to have longevity and to be able to perform at higher levels without exhausting themselves. That was the thing I just didn't know at the time.

Right.

You could perform, you could do work that could be fulfilling, that you didn't have to be exhausted. You didn't have to give up your family or give up things in the pursuit of money or success. I just didn't know that then. And so these days, I think it's one of those things that people go, Yeah, please tell me more. Tell me more.

Right.

You're a purpose-driven entrepreneur. What took you out of practicing law and where did it lead you?

Yeah, no, and I love the insight about it's more about your experience of the moment than necessarily all about being, you know, what makes you discontent or unhappy is what you're doing, whether that's law or whatever that is. That has definitely been something I think that has settled into my mind and heart as well, because I think there are so many attorneys that love being attorneys and they're great at it.

Yeah.

Like, you were like, I know partners, like, you were meant to be a partner. Like, you were supposed to be here. They're thriving, they're in the zone. You can see them, like, they light up. And that wasn't my experience. And it sounds like it wasn't yours either. And so I recognized that, again, it wasn't that there's anything wrong with the profession. It was more about, is this the right profession for me? And there was a point in my life where it was, and I learned so much. Like you said, like so many amazing skills that I needed, the analytical skills, the— just the ability to kind of think through things in a way that's— and there's so many things that lawyers are trained on, and just the practice of cultivating, managing lots of balls in the air. And a lot of things that definitely I know have really helped me kind of transform and grow into what I am doing. So I Loved that part of my career. And I also knew for me to really settle in with what I was supposed to do next, it was going to mean letting that go.

And

it was scary. You know, I had gone, I had student loans. I had thought I was going to be an attorney since I was 7 years old.

Wow.

I was just like, from one thing to another. I'm like, okay, first I must go to a top undergraduate school. Then I have to go to a top law school. And then I have to go to a law firm. And so I climbed that ladder and I worked so hard and just gave everything I could to it. And then when I got to the place where I was and I saw so many other people thriving and loving it and in the zone, and I just felt like I was faking it.

Yeah,

it was a moment.

It was so interesting. So describe what that moment was, where you were and what was happening for you.

Yeah. And so it's interesting because my husband is also a former attorney. And we went to law school together and then we went and worked at the same law firm. And we were just kind of sitting there talking like, like something just doesn't feel right. So then we came across this amazing opportunity. We went to this marketing agency, but still really, you know, doing a lot of law, but also the business and the marketing. And we were there and learned so much. And

meaning as in-house counsel, like general counsel?

The only 2 attorneys, but then we were also doing like business affairs and marketing. And so really got to kind of expand our horizons beyond just traditional law.

Right.

And so my husband is like, I always had this like thirst and feeling that I'm supposed to be a writer. I'm like, a writer? He's like, yeah, I'm supposed to be a writer. I'm like, okay. So we explored that. And I was like, I don't know, I feel like I want to really live all of these spiritual truths and practices and everything that I read and all this time I'm spending. I feel like I'm supposed to somehow live this differently and bring like these traditional skills. I'm like, I don't know what it is.

Yeah.

But we just both had these different impulses. And every week we would have this thing called talk night. So on Tuesday nights, we would sit around and just talk and dream and be like, okay, what if we did this? And so these moments just would come throughout the day, the next day when I'm like, this moment feels so different from the moments that I'm describing that I envision. And so then—

So there was a disconnect.

There was a disconnect. And I think we both had to be very honest with ourselves because there's so much fear. We had bills, responsibilities,

right? Student loans.

Like, I mean—

Oh, you had a kid then too?

We had a kid by the time we were at the marketing agency.

Yeah.

And so we'd been there for 8 years and, you know, you just kind of get signs. And we were sitting around and—

You do kind of get signs. So What were some of the signs that you were getting?

Well, the agency wanted to grow in a direction that we were both like, uh. So we were getting more responsibilities. We were getting more things that we were going to have to be focused on. And we both were just like, I just felt like I can't look the CEO in the eye anymore and pretend. I want us— like, he honored us so much as we were coming here and growing our careers. And we'd been there for 8 years. Be truthful with him. Say, we're going to find our replacements. We don't know where we're going, but we have to go somewhere else.

This is remarkably brave because a lot of people, when they're talking about those transitions, the pivots in the career space, they're often facing the uncertainty of, well, I don't know how I'll make a living. I don't know how I'll pay my bills. I don't know how I'll contribute to the family. It's usually just the one person That's going through that pivot at that moment in time. I've actually never had an interview where it was both the husband and wife, you know, the partners.

Right? How crazy are we?

They're both doing it simultaneously, like in lockstep.

And it was just kind of respecting the moment that was put in front of us because we both had so much fear. I mean, we were going off the beaten path of a lot of our colleagues, off of where we were supposed to go. And, you know, we're still attorneys, so we're a bit risk-averse. We had a nest egg.

Yeah.

So we're like, okay, as long as we can figure this out, and we both had visions of what we wanted to do,

right,

it'll be okay. But we also do have children responsibilities, and you're building a whole new profession. You're jumping off of a cliff at the same time.

Sure.

So it took us a little while to get, you know, we'd be like, let's quit. No, we're not quitting. Let's quit. No, let's not quit. So probably for just 6 months talking about it.

Right. One of us should quit. One of us shouldn't. You go.

You

stay.

And so one night we just were having a conversation and Rob was like, we could stay here forever.

Yeah,

we're doing fine. We're successful.

So there's comfort.

There's comfort. He's like,

yeah,

but don't you feel like we're supposed to do something that feels right? Something that feels extraordinary to us. And I was like, yeah, I do. I totally feel that. And I'm also scared. Right. And

then this is legitimately a conversation you and your husband are having where he's asked that question.

Yes. And I mean, I love that he asked it.

Yeah.

And I was just very honest. I'm like, I totally want to do this. But like, are we crazy? Who quits their job? Like, everything we've done, we've done to get here. And now we're here and we're having this conversation. where we're just gonna walk away from all of that because we feel this impulse? Like, this doesn't feel like anything that we would do. We're not even those type of people.

Impulsive people. Would you use the word impulse to describe what that was?

I would say that there were definitely impulses. We didn't act impulsively because I think we had to overcome the resistance and the fear. And so it would be like, okay, I'm gonna quit. And then,

and as you say, part of your training and part of the legal profession as a training ground is a training ground for reasonable behavior, right? Calculated, careful.

Yes. You know, yes. And so then I— yeah, exactly. I try to just also live my moment, like taking cues from like what feels right in this moment. What am I being asked to do? Not what am I scared of? Not, you know, what are all the fears? What's everything that could go wrong? Like, What feels right? What is my highest and best decision?

What feels right? What is my highest and best position? Or what cues? I could use the word cues. What are the signs, if I could maybe swap out cues even for signs, that there are things, signposts that you're either paying attention to? I believe they're always there.

Mm-hmm.

We're just not always paying attention. I wasn't paying attention on Monday. I sat down on the beach to put my leash on my ankle to get in the water and surf, and I had this moment where my awareness went to, you should stretch. And then the next impulse for me was, well, but I don't have time. You know, then I looked out on the landscape and thought it wasn't a big day. You know, the waves weren't really big. It was just nice little clean Waves I can handle kind of in my sleep, I thought. My next response to that information— the information was there, which was slow down, breathe, take your time, stretch. And if that means when you're done stretching, there's not enough time to surf because I had to drive up to Irvine for a business meeting, then so be it. Like, just walk back up with your board, go take a dip in the water, whatever. So I— what I pushed was I pushed That signpost, that guidance, that cue, I pushed it aside. I ignored it. And I went forward with— from some other place.

Mm-hmm.

I don't want to say it was from ego because I don't know that. Even now, I'm just curious. What was it that compelled me to ignore the signs and just get out and do what I did? And then ultimately, you know, the universe is so Just like amazingly funny, right? I mean, it's got a great sense of humor.

Yes, yes.

Incredible irony in it.

Yes, always, right?

Let me, let me get up on one wave. I was feeling no pain, literally just having a blast.

Easy.

And I'm like, well, I'll just ride 2 or 3 more just like this, and then I'll get in and it'll all just fit, right?

Right.

Next wave I get up, it immediately— like, I stood up, my back went, and I went straight down.

My gosh.

Yeah.

Wow.

You know, you're right. You're with your husband and there are these signs, there are these cues, there's stuff happening, but you're paying attention to it. That's the distinction here, right?

Well, so paying attention and, you know, really have made it this practice like we were talking about, like, what is my highest and best decision in this moment right now? What is my highest and best decision? And then to try to rise to that. And so that was the practice of rising to this because I could feel in my mind and in my heart like I'm supposed to walk away from this. And then I kept feeling it and I got a big sign.

Oh.

I was on this trip to Chicago, a business trip, and, you know, I'm going to Chicago for a couple of days. I could have stayed at any hotel, random. I was always in Chicago back and forth. And I walk into my room and of course I've been going through all of this, like, should I quit my job? No. Yes. Yes. No. Are we going to really do this? I walk into my room, and there's a big sign right there staring me in the face, like huge, and it says, life is about creating yourself. And it's the exact message I needed in that moment. That was a huge impulse, to your point earlier. I was like, I could feel it all coming in.

Hmm.

And then I sat on the bed just like looking at this sign, like, I cannot believe this. Like, this is remarkable. Like, I'm sitting here questioning, do I quit my job? I've been doing this for months. And here comes this sign and I can feel it. It says, life is about creating yourself.

Yeah.

And I was like, you gotta go, Sybil.

Were there tears? Anything?

I'm crying. Like, I can't believe this. I'm gonna quit my job. My husband's gonna quit his job. Like, we gotta go. We gotta go. And I'm like, I can't tell you what next year looks like.

Yeah.

But that's okay. I know the next step I need to take is to sell my house. I know the next step I need to take is to talk to my boss and tell him that I'm leaving. We just took it step by step. And I got back from the trip and probably 2 weeks after that, my husband and I walked into the office of the CEO and we both quit. At the same time.

Yep. Did you stay on for a period of time to find your replacement and all that kind of thing?

We did, because that was just our commitment to him. So, you know, I mean, we still had, you know, 2 or 3 months to help him transition.

Great.

And then we were also, of course, trying to transition. What are we going to do? How are we going to build this life? And he was like, are you guys sure you want to do this? And you should come. And we're like, no, we got to go. We got to go. And so that was the thing I think that was super important. Is we felt in our hearts and just took time and settled like this is the decision because so many people will try to talk you out of it. Your fears will try to talk you out of it. And so we knew we had to be settled there, there, there on it.

Integrity is the word that comes up for me when I hear what you just described. So many people will look to create their exit strategy or have their exit plan in place before they ever Let people know what they're up to, the stakeholders, the people in their lives. And like you said, somebody that's paying a salary to you usually is the last person to know. And again, I make no judgments about that. It just, I think, is a— there's something very different about the approach that you took. And you did have a lot of risk. There was plenty on the line.

Tons of risk and also tons of faith because I knew, I'm like, if we rise to our highest and best decision, Every step will unfold. We know how to build careers. Like, we create— like, we've been building this career for 20 years. We can go build—

That's right. Who's to say it's the only career that you'll ever be able to build, right?

Exactly. And so— and we're going to be disciplined about it, and we're going to work hard, and we're going to figure it out, and we're going to keep pushing through resistance, and we're going to do our inner work spiritually and get over our fears and really just take advantage of the moments in front of us and the signs.

Yes.

And they will just continue to fall in place. And just because you can't see the end of the road and you can't see like the top of the mountain, it doesn't mean that you can't see the next step and take it.

Yeah.

And that was just our philosophy. And so my husband wanted to be a TV writer and he's actually now writing television. Now it was a journey. You know, we're 7 years in and he built it step by step, but he's now a writer on an ABC TV show. 7 years later, I'm getting to do everything that I've ever wanted in terms of living my spiritual practice, integrating that into my work, getting to work with a company like Sounds True and all these amazing authors.

Yes.

And we're waking up the world. And I couldn't have done any of that. I would have never found my way to Sounds True if I hadn't been willing To get over this resistance and this fear of letting go of the job that I thought I was supposed to have for the rest of my life.

I want to dive into 2 little areas that are not so little and really important and also sometimes overlooked. One is I definitely want to hear what sort of, for you, was the most challenging moment from the moment when you had the courage to walk into your boss's office and say, you know what? The 2 of us are leaving. And we don't have necessarily a plan or a place to land, but we're just following guidance. We're following our hearts, all that. So that's a tough moment. After that, I want to know what the toughest moment next to that one was for you. And then I want to talk about resilience and how it is that you've developed skills for resilience and what that even means to you. So let's hit the first one first.

There were so many tough moments. between where I was then and where I was now. And I've always believed that, like, when you're building something, it goes up a spiral.

Mm-hmm.

This is what I always say. And so there's times when you're on the front side of the spiral and things are falling into place. Like, I quit my job, I'm going after this, I feel great. And, you know, I have this idea, okay, I'm going to create this brand, I'm going to create this agency. And then boom, I hit the back of the spiral and something doesn't fall into place. I don't get the client that I wanted. The vision isn't coming alive. And I'm like, okay, wait, no, it's all right, Sybil, don't freak out. You're just on the backside of the spiral. You know this, like you— this is how you got into law school. This is how you got your job. This is how you've grown your career. It always is this spiral. And so understanding that dynamic and understanding that I can really sit on the backside of the spiral, which are these hard moments.

Hmm.

When things aren't falling into place or when you're being challenged. Or obstacles are coming, you're being pushed more than you've ever thought you could. Those are the most challenging moments. But for me, kind of understanding this whole path, the growth path that I was on to now grow my new career, and understanding the practice, I knew that there was so much goodness happening on the backside.

Yes.

Like, that's where the work—

The richness in that unknowing.

Yeah. And like, every time I would hit a backside something in me would kind of like shrink inside and feel crushed. And I'd be like, oh my God, it didn't work out. Life is over. Like, what am I going to do? And I'm like, no, no, no. And like having to lift up every time because I had to. I had a child. I had another child on the way. I was 6 months pregnant with my second child when we both quit. And so I was like, we signed up for this and this was our agreement. Our children didn't. Their lifestyle doesn't get to change. Like, so we have to make sure that they see life is the same. And my parents are going after what they want and they're digging deep and I'm seeing them do that. Yeah. So I was also trying to be a role model. And that was probably good because you kind of had to fake it till you make it. And so those tough moments, to answer your question, the toughest one probably was after we quit our jobs, 6 months in, you know, Rob is like, okay, I'm gonna go and try to get this job at NBC and I'm gonna be this writer. Like, oh yeah, we've done this. And I'm like, I'm going to go start this brand called The Possibility today, and it's going to be great, and everything's going to fall into place, and I'm writing a book. It's going to just be boom, boom, boom. We're 6 months in.

Oh yeah.

And nothing happened.

Wow. The pace of change over the last couple of years has been rapid. And if you're a leader, a business owner, an entrepreneur, you know exactly what I'm talking about. Every day it's something different and something new, but the one thing that I've learned in performing at the height of all of those roles has been that we must be resilient. In fact, it's the unsung hero in every success story that you will ever hear about. And it's the reason why my team and I created the resilience assessment that more than 5,000 business leaders across the globe have taken. And all you have to do to get your own free resilient leader assessment is go to resilientleader.com. ResilienceRank.com. It takes less than 3 minutes, and it's our gift to you for being the leader that you already are. Other free resources and tools will accompany your score instantly. So go to ResilienceRank.com and find out just how resilient you are. Yeah.

For either of us. And that was a moment where we're like, oh, this is going to take some time and some work. And that was a challenge. You know, you're looking at each other like, oh goodness, you're looking at your children in the eye. And like, those are moments for me.

And in those moments, what was the self-talk? Or what was it that you and your— and Rob?

Yes.

What were the messages that you were reflecting to each other?

And it was interesting too, because it is rare that you find couples that quit On the same time, at the same— like to jump off the cliff. And at the time, I think if we would have known what we were doing, I don't know, sometimes I'm like, would we have done it again? But of course we would have. But, you know, some of it is just like you're in the moment and you do it, but you're not impulsive. It's like this interesting balance. And the self-talk though is super important. And I know that because I know I go up spirals. And so again, just like everything else, my self-talk sometimes when one of those fears would get triggered—

Yep.

Starts at the bottom of the spiral.

Right. Old fear story takes you back to when you were 11 years old, right?

This is never going to work out. And why would you do this? You've given up everything. Your friends were trying to get your old job. Like, why would you do this? This is going to be awful. Your life is going to be just messed up forever. Your kids are not going to have what they're supposed to have. They're not going to be able to— like, all of those stories would come in. And I'd be like, no, no, no, no, no.

And those stories always end, if we play them out to their ridiculous conclusions, they always end up with totally destroyed, embarrassed, destitute, lonely, alone, dead, right? All the way. Humiliated and, you know, like, can't even take your— you can't even— you don't even have a place to shower at the end of that thing. It's just— you're just— Exactly.

So I had that talk. And I also know that I have the opportunity to let that talk trigger, and something in me is shifting and changing that needs to be kind of healed in the moment. A fear needs to be released. Something needs to be realized. Right. And so just that practice of the backside of the spiral practice, I call it, allowed me to know that the negative chatter was going to be there because it's just in the mind. And I'm like, you know, sit back and observe it. And okay, what's my highest and best decision? Is it to listen to this? Or is it to outshine this, to sit for just a minute and take some deep breaths and let this move through my system and understand that something is processing that I want to give space to? I don't want to pretend like it's not there. I'm not going to be like Pollyanna butterflies. Oh, there's no fear. Like, no, I was scared.

Yeah.

And so can I sit in this and feel this and feel this discomfort and feel my chest Tightening in my heart, kind of getting speedy. Can I feel that? Know that I'm okay, but feel it. And then just be like, you got this. I got this. And so that practice of doing that over and over and over again, I got stronger.

Right.

And then what happens—

The process of observing.

Exactly. And just elevating the thoughts too. You know, and so they need to be healed. And I'd be like, no, but you're doing this, this, this. Of course, my mind, I'm a lawyer, you're a lawyer, you know. You have to be convinced. So I would like talk to my skeptical mind like, look, no, you've done this, this, this. We're doing this, this, this. Here's the plan. It's all charted out. Like I'd have a very real practical working session on my path forward, what I was going to do, what my next steps were. That would help alleviate some of the fears. Breathing would help for sure. And then I would get settled and I'd go to the next day.

You know, it's a subtle thing how we would— and I love the language that you're using to describe all this. Obviously, your story is unique in creating a visual image of what it looks like and you use the word spiral. I think we can all visually imagine what it would be like to be in sort of a spiral of some kind and it's at different stages in different places, it feels different.

It does.

As you were describing a spiral, I was just thinking for whatever reason, it's like the moon, how one side of the moon we see, it's bright.

Yes.

And it's full at times, you know, all that kind of thing. It's just right there. It's clear. But there's a whole other side of the moon we never see. You know, I love that old Pink Floyd album, Dark Side of the Moon, and there's this whole thing that on the dark side, we never see it. And communication on the dark side of the moon was a big challenge, you know, when they were first exploring and all that kind of thing. So that other side of the spiral feels like that dark side.

Absolutely.

Where communication has been impacted, your internal communication. It feels like, literally, Houston, we have a problem. The way you describe that is brilliant because the way that you reframed, and this is the word I would apply to how it is that you were resilient at that time when you were in the spiral and on a side of the spiral where It led you to be questioning, like, are things really going right or are they really potentially going wrong? Like, you were assessing and you would dive into the assessment and the feedback you were getting from the universe was, hey, shit's not quite right here.

Right.

Yeah. So that puts us immediately sort of almost on a— it's an intuitive thing that we go into Protection, or as lawyers, we go immediately toward what's the solution, right? We got to get deep into planning the solution right away. But what you did was different because it sounded to me like you sat with it. You made it okay. You gave yourself permission to feel shitty or feel confused or feel whatever you were feeling.

Yes.

And then you got just a little bit more curious about it. than sort of scared by it. So there's the part of us that gets really frightened by those feelings and those things that are familiar to us that represent threat. And you could have gone there and been there, but you also sat there, gave yourself permission, got curious, were observing of what was happening, and then there was something new that was birthed out of that process. Is that right? Yeah.

Absolutely. I mean, I couldn't have said it better. That was my experience and how I knew I needed to move up the spiral. And just to also be aware, like, sometimes I'm just like, I'm human. And, you know, it stinks that that opportunity didn't work out. I'm going to go grab a bag of chips and some ice cream for the next 2 hours because I just need a break. Like, this is a journey and I'm going to climb this mountain, but I'm also human. And when things go wrong and I get bad news or this didn't work out, like, I'm also going to honor that. And so sometimes I would honor it even with like junk food and ice cream. I know what I'm doing. I know it's not my highest and best decision at that moment, but like for 2 hours I'm just gonna pout, I say. But then after 2 hours you're done, silly.

Yeah.

And then that's when it's like, sit, process, move, go. And so just kind of giving whatever the moment felt like. Sometimes it felt like just sit with it and do it right now. Sometimes it was like, go mess around, go have fun. Sometimes it was like, go think harder, like, and just really kind of being honest and respectful of what felt good in that moment, you know? And when I needed more care and more self-care and more self-love, or when I needed more confidence and really just learning that I could find all of that within. Mm-hmm. I could still be supported by my husband and all the people around me who are encouraging me, but ultimately it had to first come from within. And these moments that were heartbreaking were giving me the best practice.

Wow. This is just what's coming through me at the moment, but I'm going to share it anyway because I feel like permission is a word with— that's really relevant to what you're describing. And I say that because I think a lot of us don't give ourselves permission to feel what we feel. So we make what we feel wrong, and then that becomes a spiral It's a

reverse spiral,

I would say. Yeah, a spiral straight into the ground. You just nosedive at times because we're not giving ourselves permission. As you said, it might not be on one level the highest and best decision to sit down with a bag of chips and a half a gallon of ice cream, but on another level, it's exactly what's in our highest and best, right? In that moment.

It is at that moment.

As long as that doesn't You know, become its own thing that takes you over, right? Where emotionally, I'm just not dealing, and how I not deal is by, you know, eating or drinking or whatevering. Yeah.

Yeah. And just, you know, like, I love that permission. Like, what you said is so on point. And understanding 10% of the time I'm having those moments, but 90% of the time I'm doing all of the other stuff that I know I'm going to and I'm supposed to. Sometimes I'm just like, yeah, I just want to pout. Like, I'm mad.

That's it.

I was supposed to win and I lost.

I got an hour to pout. I'm gonna take my hour and I'm gonna— it's my pout time. It's my pout now.

I'm mad. I used to play tennis when I was growing up. And so even if I lose a match, like, oh, I'm just mad. Like, I'm happy she won and like, I'm mad. Can I be mad for an hour? Just let me burn this off.

You know, it's so— Wow, we could take that road on the score of parenting and so many other things where it's really interesting that as part of the elevated consciousness, which is such a positive in our world, in the area of parenting and a lot of things, I think we're holding ourselves to pretty high standards or let's say higher standards, right? Because this— and again, I know we're not going to have time to digress into this space, but there's a lot of political correctness out there. There's a lot of people getting woke and all that stuff and I don't want to say it like that's— Sure. not a good thing because it really is a good thing. Yes. At the same time, we're holding ourselves to some standards now that I think maybe doesn't allow permission for humanness, for just being the messy artists that we are. Right. Instead, we're supposed to now paint within these new lines, these politically correct lines. We're supposed to apply this lens of perfection. To the artwork. And yet, for most of us who've lived long enough to know this, we know life is a big effing mess.

Yes.

It's a beautiful mess, not a bad mess, like a gorgeous, amazing— like when your 3-year-old comes home with that painting that they put their feet on and their hands were all over and there's almost not discernible that there's a house in it and he or she is explaining to you exactly what's in that painting. Right. And it's absolutely magnificent. It's beautiful. It's a beautiful mess, and that's exactly what our lives are in so many ways. So when we hold these standards, it's A, perfect, it's beautiful, and at the same time, it's B, its own challenge, its own thing. So you're just inspiring me, Sybil, so much that giving ourselves permission to be the mess that we are or to have those moments or to deal with what we've got to deal with In the best, you know, using the best, the skills we've got in the moment to do the best we can do in the moment. It's a spiritual truth.

It is. I believe it. And, you know, I think, you know, I was saying rising to my highest and best decision, and it really was, but it starts in intention, right? So what is my highest and best decision in terms of my intention? And my intention in this moment is for need to just kind of burn off some heat. And that's okay. That's my intention. So it may not ultimately on the outside look like the highest and best decision, but this is my intention. And I think in terms of what you're saying, like with the political things and like riding the line and trying to understand all of the different nuances, and there's going to be gazillions of them. And I always say, like, I just want to know your heart. What's your intention?

Right.

Is your intention to like share love? With your political view, like with whatever view that you guys are debating, underneath that, what is your intention? What do you feel? Who are you trying to take care of? Who are you concerned about? What fear are you trying to work through? Like, what is your intention with that perspective?

Hmm.

And I feel like when you start with intention, like my intention is XYZ, and that means that this is my political perspective. Okay, every time you hear the dialogue, folks are just talking about their opinions. This is my opinion. This is my opinion. What is your intention?

And what's right? And what's right or wrong?

What feels good to you? Not what are you hearing? Not what shouldn't you do? What should— like, what are you— what do you care about in this moment that's impacting your perspective and why that should be the law or the policy or all the stuff that we hear being debated?

And intention is intention in the world of the woo-woo, right? Where some of us have some experience in the personal growth and human development space so that intention is a big thing. And it's also a big thing in the law. So, it's fun to be able to talk about this with another lawyer because intentionality, it makes the difference between degrees of culpability in the law.

I agree with that.

Degrees of responsibility have everything to do with whether you intended that harm Or intends that result, or you can't intend it, right?

Exactly.

Exactly.

And I think it just leaves the latitude for learning by experience, right? And so it's not that you can be careless or reckless with your actions, even if you're like, oh, my intention was to help, and then you're continually making reckless decisions when you know you know better. But it's also giving the opportunity to be like, this is what I really think, and I really want to say this to this person. Because I want them to know I care about them.

Right.

And that should count for a lot. And then if it runs afoul of some, you know, political correctness or whatever, then you're my friend. Teach me. Tell me in that moment so I can learn and grow and feel it because I don't know. Like, you know, if you know my heart and I'm pure and I'm coming from a good place, I may mess up. I may say some things that are out of color. I may say some things that are out of hand. I may say some things that are shaded with my perspective.

Right.

But the moment has come in front of us to have this moment. If I'm going to come at it with purity of intention and you're coming at it, let's learn and grow together. But for me to hold back and not say something, or for you to get offended because you're reading into something that I said and not say anything, we're not taking advantage of the moment in front of us. Yeah.

We hear that term, leading with your heart, speaking from your heart. We lead speaker training programs and help people get on TED stages and things. We're always helping people to understand how to speak from their heart. But what's really great, I want to connect this dot, is the intention. So if you're thinking about how is it that you speak from your heart or how can you lead from your heart, it starts with intention. What is your true intent in communicating right now? Mm-hmm. Is your true intent, as you say, to close the gap? You mean connect with somebody? Is your true intent to understand? Is it the true intention to seek to know someone else's perspective, or is it strictly to express your own opinion? Is it love? Is it based, rooted in love, or is it rooted in trying to prove something or be right? Yeah, it makes all the difference, right, in the tone?

It does.

The tone of the words, physically, but also the undertone, which is—

Energetically, yeah, what people feel. Exactly.

Your body language, your nonverbals, all the things that, you know, it's like when we learned as children, right? It's not what you say, but how you say it that kind of changes or impacts the way that's received. So I would love to understand better your take on resilience. So would you share what that is? And even if there's something that you do to create, consciously cultivate resilience in your life, and if not, if it's something different than I'm real curious. I know our folks will be as well. How would you define resilience? Let's start there.

I would define resilience first and foremost for myself as something that is continually helping me align with what I'm capable of in every moment and something that has grown and continues to grow and build over time with every experience, with every challenge, with every opportunity.

Mm-hmm.

Is resilience, because it's essential for anything that you want to do, whether it's a relationship, whether it's a job, whether it's a career, whether it's going after a dream. Resilience is one of the most essential factors I feel like that we're all here to align with so that we can cultivate it and integrate it into our days, into everything that we do, so that we can just continually grow and go after the things that feel most right for us. And it's definitely something I really work at cultivating. I think just being aware of it, which is why I love the question, and having that awareness that that's part of the experience is like, okay, no, it's time to be resilient, allows me, I think, to lean into building it more and more every time it's time for the practice, which is a lot.

And if we were creating a recipe for what resilience looks like From your perspective, I think you've already said a number of things that would be part of that recipe. Why don't we take a chance at summarizing, putting into maybe some of the ingredients that go into the resilience recipe for you? What would those ingredients be, do you think?

Sure. I mean, I think it's one, like we were just talking about, the awareness of it and the importance of resilience that goes into it. Just the understanding, like, this is something that I need that's essential and I'm going to practice.

And you can create it.

And I can create it.

So it's not like some people are born resilient and some people aren't.

No, I believe it grows within you. It has grown in my life over time, right?

Beautiful.

So just having that awareness and understanding.

Awareness, number one. Understanding it's a thing and I can cultivate it, create it.

Exactly.

Cool.

Another ingredient I would say is Continually leaning into it because not only is awareness important, it's a practice. And you have to choose resilience because self-pity and like all of the other things that want to weigh you down by default are always there.

By default, they're always there.

By default, it's always going to run through your mind. I call it the chief negativity officer. He or she never goes anywhere, will always be running the sad stories. Crying stories, obstacle stories, it's not going to work out stories, the stories that are supposed to be outshined with your resilience. So understanding that as the number 2 is that I'm going to have to practice this. And when I do, I'm going to be able to continually grow into it and strengthen it. And it's going to be a tool for everything that I need in my life, I would say is number 2.

Got it.

And then the 3rd one, I would just say finally, is really understanding and having openness for what arises in the present moment, like what's in front of you right now and where is the opportunity to practice resilience. So in those moments that come, because every moment doesn't make you practice resilience, sometimes you get to practice progress and success. Yes. Other times you're being asked to practice resilience though. And so Understanding that these moments aren't to be hated or despised, but to be like, oh man, like if that hadn't gone wrong, I wouldn't have been able to practice this that I need. And I'm going to get over this one. Like I've gotten over all the other moments where I needed resilience.

Hmm.

However, if I didn't have those, I wouldn't have built this resilience that I'm going to need to create these huge things that I'm trying to create in my life. whatever that is that you can feel deep within that you're supposed to do. These moments that make you bring up and practice resilience are giving you what you need in order to create what you ultimately want.

Exactly. Yeah. I absolutely adore that. I think that's really fresh language, and I think it'll be very helpful if people can understand it. From that lens that, yeah, being aware to begin with that it's a thing, that you can create that thing, that that thing actually helps us. That, by itself, is a complete reframe. You're finding the creative opportunity now instead of, like you said, allowing the CNO to take over, your Chief Negativity Officer, to tell you how this is something that you should be past, beyond. It's just not fair. The practice, to know that you've got to practice or can have the option to practice it to get really great at it because there will always be times of change and times of uncertainty. Right. Why not be prepared as though you were an athlete ready to get into the field of competition and you want to be at your very best? Well, resilience, to me, resilience training and the practice of resilience gets you prepared to be resilient before you need it. It's getting you practiced in game situations so that when those situations do occur, you actually can be playing offense, not just strictly running the life, the business, and relationships on defense.

Absolutely. If you don't practice, you're not going to show up that way.

Right. And I think the other piece of this is permission. It feels like to me part of this recipe that you've been outlining has a lot to do with Allowing yourself the freedom, the true freedom to be here now in this, whatever this is, and to know that not only is there great opportunity in this, but there's also— this is the only moment we have. So to not give yourself permission to experience it is ironic in the sense that You'll never get this moment back. I'll never get this moment back. There's no adding. It's not like we go, okay, so this was a shitty moment, or this was me not being present,

or

whatever I was, and then I'm going to add that onto the end of the game.

Yeah. You

just don't get to do that. So, now is what we've got. And there's not only this great beauty in the moment for the moment's sake, but there's also this The mystery of what's also possible when there's this permission, I suppose, to just experience things.

Yeah, go with the flow.

And then exactly, and then allow the next, the next moment to take care of itself. It's— it almost feels too carefree on some level to be responsible, you know, right? And yet it almost never fails. That when we let go, when we just are willing to trust ourselves, trust the universe in all of its great wondrous mystery, that things mysteriously work out perfectly. It's so funny because, right, you say that, but then tomorrow if something goes wrong, we're still going to have a part of ourselves that wants to fix it quick.

Right. And not realize that something going wrong sometimes is everything working out perfectly. Isn't it?

Isn't that true? Wow. Sybil, I've so enjoyed this—

Likewise.

Unplanned conversation.

I know, it's great. It's great. Thank you so much for having me and for the time. I really appreciate it.

I want you to share, if you could, about the company that you're so supportive of these days, and we'll take just a minute or two to talk about that, and then we'll wrap up. Okay?

Absolutely. Absolutely. So what's always on my mind and at the center of my heart is a company called Sounds True. And it's a very mission-driven company doing lots of great work with some of the top wisdom teachers and spiritual leaders in the entire world. And so I just feel so fortunate to get to work there with a great group of people who are practicing what we're also sharing with the world. And those are the transformational practices and just working with the top teachers like Eckhart Tolle and Pema Chödrön and Jack Kornfield and Tara Brach. I mean, it's so many. to list, and it's just so cool to kind of get to do that. Those are my teachers. That's my practice. I get to do the work and then work with a great team to just share it. And, you know, we're just trying to give back and learn and grow and do it authentically and in every moment. So that's super cool.

Couldn't even imagine anything better, really.

Yeah,

it feels

really

good to be in that environment. So beautiful. We will conclude This podcast just to— I think rituals are super important. So is there one ritual that you have that helps you to make those better decisions, those decisions that are in your highest good? Is there one ritual that you can think of that helps you there?

I think so. I mean, I think like we've been talking about, just really being aware of the moment in front of me and honoring that and giving myself permission and intention to do it. And then just in terms of a practical practice, it's something that's changed for me, but I usually take a couple hours every morning. I'm a morning person.

Yeah.

And sometimes I'll listen to a teaching from one of the teachers that we work with. Sometimes I'll just be silent. Sometimes I'll listen to some beautiful classical music. And again, just kind of having that space to release and settle and get ready for the day. That's been really— something about centering every morning and taking that time.

Yes. Yeah, for me, it's been the intention setting. It's what you said earlier about what's your true intention. And so, my own belief is that when we begin the day, we can get off on the sort of right foot or wrong foot really fast. And it doesn't mean we can't correct because we're constantly correcting our course and things can go very right even if at the beginning they started off differently. I just hear my grandmother's voice in my head and she would say, leave the house on the right foot. Leave the house on the right foot. To me, the waking moment of the day is super important because I want to leave the house, my subconscious house or my unconscious house, I want to leave on the right foot. There's 3 parts to this waking ritual. The first part is always fun and that is to wake up to begin with. Sybil, did you wake up today?

I did. Yes. I feel awake. Yes. Yes.

You feel awake? I feel more awake now than I did before our show started, I can say that. Good. Likewise. And I think that's the process, is that it's a gradual awakening, awakening deeper and at higher, just a higher frequency even of our, not just our thinking, but our awareness, our consciousness, whatever you want to call it. So waking up is a big deal. So tomorrow, if everybody will agree who's watching, listening to this, that we all get to wake up tomorrow, right? Yes. Yes, I agree. I'm going to wake up, right, knowing When we do wake up in the morning, that not everybody was granted that wish. I really hope you're enjoying this episode of the Change Proof Podcast. If you've not yet gone out and gotten your own copy of Change Proof, it's not too late. You can get your copy right now by going to changeproof.com and not only getting the book and all the bonuses there, but getting access to our proprietary resilience assessment tool. It'll just take you 3 minutes to do, and it's something that will really help you to utilize the book even more effectively to create practices and rituals and habits that will increase your mental, emotional, physical, and even spiritual resilience for the long term. Again, go to changeproof.com/resilience. They don't— not everybody will wake up tomorrow. So, in that moment where we have an awareness, a recognition even of the seriousness of that moment for a lot of people, and certainly in our own lives, it's a blessing. Mm-hmm. We can simply take 10 seconds in that moment where we have that understanding of truth. Like, it's true. I'm waking up. There are people who are not in that moment. That is true. We all can be grateful right then and there for the gift that we didn't necessarily expect to receive. And then the third piece of this is, is really about intention setting. And I don't often describe it this way. So I really appreciate you giving me this added color to it, which is it's an intention. I start with 4 words every day, and it's purely an intention to leave on the— leave the house on the right foot, to lead from the right place, to really let the universe know what my true desire is. So, these 4 words are, I love my life. Those are the words. Sybil, what are Will you repeat those words, please?

I love my life.

And do you feel that way?

I do. I do. And I love life. And I love talking to people like you and having those moments. And that's such a wonderful way to start the day. I love that.

Yeah. I'm a life lover as well. So these are just simple things. We all are learning from each other. There's just great ways to plus. Plus the best of our own thinking, the best of our own behaviors when we connect, collaborate with people who are doing things their own way and to see those connection points. Cybill, it's been a blessing. Thanks so much for being on the show today. Thank you.

I really appreciate it.

If you guys dug this episode, as I have certainly, please share comments. So go to adamarkel.com/podcast. Leave a comment there. You can leave a review on iTunes as well. Let us know what you think. Let us know your questions. There are full show notes. So if you want to find out more about Sybil, the work she's doing, the company that she's supporting, and, and just pretty much a recap of the things that we spoke about, there'll be resources, links to click, and more information to find there. So again, have a beautiful rest of your day. Blessings to you wherever you are in the world, and ciao for now. Ciao.

Thanks for listening, everyone. We hope you now have the tools and greater insights to navigate your own pivot. Help us inspire others by sharing this episode and leaving your comments over at adammarkel.com/podcasts. For more tips, strategies, and support as you consciously pivot into a new business and lifestyle you love, join our Pivot Community on Facebook at pivotfb.com.