#161: Building Resilience For Future Success With Robert MacPhee

Welcome to The Conscious Pivot Podcast with international speaker, business mentor, bestselling author of Pivot, and your host, Adam Markel. The Conscious Pivot shares the stories and wisdom of people who have successfully reinvented some area of their business and personal life. You'll gain powerful insights into how you can fully embrace new opportunities, increase your performance, And master the art and science of innovation and resilience. So please join Adam as he guides you on your conscious pivot.

Hey, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of the Conscious Pivot Podcast. I'm your host, Adam Markel. And I am very lucky. I feel quite lucky to be not just in the seat today, but to feel the support of a multitude of people. I don't want to say like, I don't know, I'm kind of gauging my words right now. And actually, I have a multitude of people that's support me in my life, that I feel supported by others, by the universe, by you all that are listening, that have subscribed, are a part of this podcast, have shared it with others. I'm so grateful for all of that support. And I guess my mind, the little voice in my head was going, multitude, multitude. Oh my God, that's so many people. It makes it sound like, I don't know, if you don't have a multitude of people supporting you, you're like, you're shit. And that's a total shit idea because that's just not the case at all. I feel like At times I don't actually acknowledge just how much support I get, so I guess that's where I'm going with that, is this— there's just so much support everywhere. And that is blowing me away in this moment to just think and to feel, actually feel it. Feeling it in my body right now, my eyes have gotten a little glassy, I can feel that coming. Where is it right now that you feel supported? If you could strip away for a moment even just the reality, let's just— Move the reality of what's happening in our world at this time to one side for a moment and feel without that, the weight of all of that, how much support you have in your life at this moment. People and other things that are non-physical. There's just so much that we can count on as being solid and just think about the earth, for example. I mean, you can't get a greater example of support than when you put your feet on the floor. I mean, this is not a thing to take for granted, I don't think. And yet we do because we wake up every morning and very few people, I think, really are truly feeling supported by even just Mother Earth. And then from there, a million other places we can see that support staring back at us. So I'm taking that in for myself. You might, you might feel a little that and maybe it's not resonating, but that's up to you. I also feel blessed because I got a friend on the horn here on the line. On our Zoom horn today to chat. And I love this guy, and I know many of you probably already know him. I'll say a little bit about his background, where you may have run into him and his work in the past. But he is truly, and not just in language alone, this gentleman is a thought leader and somebody who's been sharing great thoughts with a great multitude of people for a long, long time. He was the director of training. for Jack Canfield for many, many years. Founding member, former executive director of the Transformational Leadership Council, an organization I feel blessed to be a part of as well. Co-founder of the Southern California Association of Transformational Leaders, another organization. He's an author of a wonderful book called Manifesting for Non-Gurus. And I believe there's also a journal that goes with that as well, companion journal. He's the creator of Excellent Decisions Leadership Programs. And he helps people make decisions based on their vision and their values rather than stress, pressure. And man, oh man, Robert McPhee, do you have your work cut out for you today.

Yeah, that whole thing about stress and pressure seems to be coming up a little bit these days.

Yeah, just a wee bit, eh? A wee bit. I'm going to start with you the way anybody, which is to say that's a lot in terms of a bio and So, Adam, that's a bit of an intro. What's not part of what I just read and shared that you would love for people to know about you as we begin?

Oh man, that's such an easy question because the one thing that's not in my bio, and you and I were talking about it a little bit before we hit record, and I know it's something that you and I share, and that's how important it is to be a dad. I have 3 kids. You know, I have my business and these organizations that, like you, I've been so blessed to be a part of, and I love that part of my life, but there is nothing more important to me than my 3 amazing kids who are now empty nesters and out there in the world and contributing members of society. But that's the barometer by which I measure pretty much everything. And again, you and I were talking about this before we hit record. It's all the work that I do. The excellent decisions work actually started with working with young people. My kids were in college. I saw all the stress and pressure that young people are faced with, the peer pressure, the social pressure, the academic pressure, in a lot of cases parental pressure, which In my opinion, kind of tips the scale. If the parents are part of the pressure and the stress rather than part of the solution. But the truth is I had an unfair advantage as a parent. I told you this, like I was working with Jack Canfield. You mentioned I was the director of training for Jack's organization. Amazing man, amazing mentor and teacher and friend to me. And I was hanging out with him while my kids were growing up. And that was an unfair advantage. Most parents don't get to do that. And I see the difference that it's made. I see that I was a different parent because of that. That's not in my bio, but it is absolutely part of who I really am. And I also just want to pause and go back and thank you for the way you set up this conversation with some gratitude for the support that we all have. Because for me personally, like, whatever we talk about for the rest of our time, that was worth it, getting together to have that just centering and grounding. Whatever our current situation or circumstances.

Yeah. Hmm. Thank you, Robert. You know, it's interesting because just before we did hit record, you and I were— as we've known each other for a while now, we're both very centered in our roles as parents, as dads. I used to introduce myself, I used to get on the stage and the first thing I would say is, you know, I'm a daddy. I would say that first, you know, just because there's just something really profound about our ability to impact someone's life. And that is one of the most profound opportunities we have. So I know a lot of people on— that are listening are probably parents, and some are not parents, and maybe some want to be and some don't ever want to be. But of course, we were all kids. Mm-hmm. That's the funny part about that. We may not be parents, but we were all kids once upon a time. So we know how great that influence can be. And one of the things you and I were chatting about, how it's kind of like it's not all gravy either, as many parents know. And I don't mean just the usual teenage bull or some of the other stuff that happens along the parenting path, including— as we had Ken Druck on our show a few weeks back, and, you know, of course there are people who've lost children, and that's one of the most devastating. I can't even put myself in the space of fathoming what it's like to see it, to lose a child.

Worst possible thing that a parent can imagine. My dad always said that, you know, I can handle anything, he used to say.

Yeah.

Just let me go before any of my kids go and I'll be okay.

For sure. For sure. And I love that conversation with Ken as well because part of what his gift in the world is, is that he learned through that experience how to help other people to navigate really, really difficult times like that. Sort of the things we call catastrophes. And so you and I were talking about how one of the little, like some of the rub, you know, if there's a rub in parenting, it's that if you do a a decent job, then at some point your kids will call you out on your shit. They will hold up a mirror to you and let you know when you're missing the mark yourself. And so, your kids do that for you and—

Oh, yeah. Yeah. I'd love to share an example. I mean, one of the foundational principles in my work, I brought it right over from the work that I did with Jack, was about personal responsibility. And I love to share a story of when my youngest daughter was in high school and she was playing soccer. And I had some meeting and I said to my daughter, I've got this meeting tomorrow, so I can't go to your soccer game. And my daughter looks at me. I will never forget this moment. She literally looks at me. She's like 15 years old and she crosses her arms and she kind of rolls her eyes back and she goes, you can't? And I was like, oh man, she is so right. And I had done the same thing to her in terms of taking responsibility for your choices. Right. And it sucked in that moment. Like you said, you know, the rub, like I was not happy in that moment. But now as I look back on it, I'm thrilled that my daughter had that level of understanding about what personal responsibility really means and how it shows up in our language and that she felt strong enough to call me on it, right? Her dad, call her dad on it. And she was right. She was 100% right because I was making a choice and I was chickening out. It was much easier for me to say to her, Honey, I'm sorry, I've got this really important meeting. I can't go to your soccer game, right? Meeting's fault, not my fault, not my choice. It's this meeting. That's all on the meeting. When the truth is, I was making a choice. It was go to the soccer game or go to the meeting. And I didn't want to look my daughter in the eye and say, honey, this meeting is more important than you are, which truthfully isn't even what I was saying. It felt like that. But the truth is, I went to almost all of her soccer games. It was a real— I don't remember what it was, but it was an important meeting. And that was my choice.

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So she got me to reframe it and say something to the effect of, I've got this meeting tomorrow. It's really important. I'm making a choice to go to that meeting. So I'm gonna miss your soccer game. And I promise no matter what, I will be at your next soccer game or something to that effect. Right. That moment where she looked at me and said, you can't really, Mr. Self-Help, Personal Improvement Guru, Author, Speaker Guy, you can't. Come on, man! It was so awesome and like to have her call me on it, to have her have the level of awareness, first of all to see it and to hear it and the strength and the confidence, if you will, not to be cocky about it, not to, you know, make me wrong or whatever but just to call me on it and say, hey, you taught me this, maybe I could teach you a little something. It was great and again in the moment, not great in that moment but looking back on it and knowing that all of my children grew up with an understanding of a principle like that of personal responsibility and how important it is and having a vision and being clear about their values and knowing how to communicate effectively and all those things that they just learned growing up. What more could I possibly want?

No. And self-ownership is such an important life lesson as well as a skill in relationships, business, etc., for a lifetime. So how beautiful to get it reflected back in that way. I'm thinking of Chelsea, our oldest daughter. She's of late been calling me out on something In my language. So it's kind of funny because we talk about the word incredible and unbelievable. And she said, so Dad, I just want to— and this is months ago. She goes, you know, is it really incredible? Like I was using that word and she says, incredible? What does it mean to be incredible? Well, it means not credible. It's not credible. I said, so is that what you're— she says, are you intending to say this thing is not credible? Or unbelievable? Are you saying this is not credible? Believable. And so now I'm sort of constantly on the lookout for my own language, but when I'm unaware and I will speak out of more habit, you know, just not really being fully present. I think a lot of the times that's just we're running a script almost.

And what a gift it is to be surrounded by people in our lives, in our work, in our family, and our friends and our colleagues. If we are surrounded by people who can call us on our language and just as you described with Chelsea in an engaging way, Hey, I'm curious, let's look at that, like, is that really what you mean? And in a supportive way, it doesn't sound like you felt like confronted or attacked or anything like that, it's like, how cool is that with our children that they—

She just smiles at me now. Yeah, that's all it takes. She just gives me a wink and then I know, oh yeah, I did it again, although I catch myself more often now too. So yeah, it's very powerful to have people in your life that will hold the mirror up for you and in times like this right now, Of course, having those people around is more of a— just a physical challenge that not everybody that would have that kind of influence potentially in your life is somebody that you might run into physically today. Right. But yet there are other ways that you can continue to maintain that. And of course, ultimately, there's an opportunity to ask for that kind of support from those people and from others. I really want to get into something you and I started talking about before we hit the record button, which is the concept of vision. Because I think we are in the cycle of this right now, meaning the cycle of this pandemic that has literally taken the world by storm. I think there are a lot of people who are still dazed and a bit dazed and confused. And I'm not going to take myself out of the characterization either because at moments, I can sort of feel a wave of just pure uncertainty that will wash over me. And then, like you said, having just done a lot of this work for a lot of years, I kind of call it out for myself. So what's my best response to this wave of uncertainty? And I know my spiritual practice has me— I'll fall off the faith truck and then remember at some point that, oh, I don't— Really need to go any further than that reference point for me to say, what am I really afraid of here? What is the great uncertainty that's got me, that's grabbed my attention and taken it away from the present moment and taken me out of the opportunity in this moment for so many things? The opportunity to create, the opportunity to be alert to the opportunities that are out there for me, that to take me out of the moment where I could be directed and guided and inspired to move in a certain way, but for the fact that I'm now rehearsing something. I'm now looking at the list of possible catastrophes that are yet to occur. And you and I were talking about that. So I'd love to get your thoughts on the mindset that people are in at the moment, because you've been such a leader in this space and you've coached a lot of people and you've worked with great thought leaders as well. Yeah. What do we do in a situation like we're in now where that wave of uncertainty seems to be just cresting all around us? Especially if you're watching, you're consuming anything on TV, right? Through the media or what have you. So I want to cover that and then talk a bit about vision and where that plays into the creative opportunity that exists for people now if they can be present to it.

Well, I think the concept of vision ties directly to the conversation about all the uncertainty that's out there. You know, for the last several weeks, one of the common themes that I hear coming up in the conversations over and over and over again is the uncertainty that we're going in. This is a historic time that we're going into, a period of time that we don't know what it's going to look like. We don't know what business is going to look like 2 months, 3 months, 6 months down the road. It's going to be different. It seems very clear to me, but how it's going to be different, we really don't know. And because vision is a concept that's rooted in the future, like having a vision, looking ahead, I see vision as taking goals and objectives and creating a multisensory experience. How is achieving this goal, whether it's a money goal or a weight goal or whatever it is, it's going to impact every area of my life. If I double my income, it's not just that I have twice as much money in the bank. It's going to impact where I go and what I do and who I hang out with and how I feel and the experience I'm having. So the vision is all of that. People are curious about everything we talked about before we hit record today, but we're bringing it all back. But the truth is we don't know. And I know, like, I do a lot of work with vision, helping other people with their vision, crafting my own vision, and I'm reworking my vision right now. I have a tremendous amount of curiosity in the area of vision right now because the truth is there's so much uncertainty. There's so much that's evolving and changing on a day-to-day and week-to-week basis. My vision, I don't know right now. Like, I still have elements of it that I feel like are really important, but it's a work in progress right now. And what that leads me to, because again, with my Excellent Decisions Model, it's vision, it's values, and it's value. Like, that's what my mission is, to help people have that be— those 3 things drive the way we think, the decisions we make, and the actions we take. And when that's true, that it's our vision and our values and our value that drive our thinking, our decisions, and our actions versus all the external stress and pressure, all the people that we should do, we have to do, we need to do. If we let the vision and the values and the value drive the bus, if you will, the way we think, the decisions we make, the actions we take, then life changes. Life is just completely different. And what I'm finding right now is that this is a time Where we kind of have to set vision aside a little bit and be patient and let that evolve a little bit, get a little more data about where we're headed here and focus on values and values. Because it's a great time, no matter what our situation and circumstances are, to remember what's really important to us. And you asked me a question about that. I think people are really clear. One of the things that's really important to me is my family. It's a good time to remember that. I can freak out right now over the fact that because my business is driven by traveling and working with groups, it's had a significant impact on my business. But freaking out about it isn't going to help. And again, I feel like this is a really important time to remember, like, who I really am, what's really important to me, and also the value piece. I feel like there's never been a more important time for people to understand what it means to make excellent decisions, to have clarity as best they can about their vision, about their values, about the value that they bring to the conversations that they're in at work and in their family and in their personal relationships. There has never been a more important time for that. And because of that, I'm finding myself strangely calm in spite of the fact that there's so much uncertainty in my business right now. I feel like having the The certainty about who I really am and the clarity about who I am and what's really important to me. And the value piece is critical, especially as we look at business and business is changing. I believe a lot of us are going to have to deliver our value in different ways, but it doesn't change our value. I mean, you bring a tremendous amount of wisdom and experience and skills from your background that adds up to a lot of value that you bring to the marketplace. The people that you work with, someone who's reading your book or hearing you speak or working with you in coaching or consulting, whatever it is, You bring a tremendous amount of value. But I'm guessing you, like me, are expecting that 3, 4, 6 months from now, we're probably going to be delivering that value differently. But it doesn't change the fact that we bring great value, as does, I believe, everyone. There's great value that we bring. It's a good time to remember that.

When I was on your show, Robert, last, you and I, you'll recall, we talked a lot about this concept of pivoting. And the idea that originally birthed the book was about reinvention and how important it is that we recognize our place in nature, our place in the universe is inherently changing. It's never stationary. There's nothing that stagnates in the universe. Anything that stagnates is ultimately petrified. It's like dead. And we, same thing, ourselves have to continue to evolve and change or we also atrophy and ultimately are not what we are capable of being. So change is the constant. This is a great change that's upon us. This is a huge catalyst for change. And now, vision is a thing that many, many people can do, meaning this is something that when we're not aware of what's to come, the uncertainty is more in our face now than it's been in a while. The initiative of creating or updating our vision is that much more important and imperative, but it really isn't any different than at any other time when we're alive. I'm just sort of putting out there the fact that the uncertainty is constant. That's never been any different. There are all kinds of things that happen to people that are unexpected all the time. I think what's unprecedented is the degree to which that change— the change is it's global. It's not just your cousin that got hit by a car or this friend of yours that was diagnosed with cancer or the unexpected loss of a job or the business that went bust or any of the things that in our individual lives and in the lives of people we know, these things are happening all the time. This change is everywhere. People are born, people die. Constantly things are happening. And yet, it's the fact that it's happening across a wide spectrum, a wide landscape that I think is also a cause for people to just sort of not have confidence. in their ability to navigate these times. And what I'm putting out there and what I want to understand better from you is, is there really any difference between what's happening now and what our response can be to what's happening now individually and as entrepreneurs or career people? Is it really so different than the kind of uncertainty we were all living with before? I mean, I'm just putting it out there and I'm curious. I don't really have an opinion formed yet, but I want to get your thoughts on that, Robert.

I think there are some fundamental differences. And when you were on my podcast, we talked a lot about pivoting. And obviously, that's a big part of your conversation. I think you should be getting royalties for everyone in today's world who's talking about pivoting because pivot has become like the buzzword of buzzwords, right? We all need to pivot. And I think it's true. But I think there's 2 fundamental differences in what's going on now. And it is interesting to think because you and I had the conversation on my podcast before this all happened. It might have just been very beginning of it because it's not that long, but it was not in the US. It was not front and center. It was not everywhere, like you said. And the truth is, at that time, I think you and I were talking about changes and people wanting to make changes. And it was driven by desire, wanting something to be different. And you and I both work in the world of helping people create the changes that they want to make in their life. And one of the big fundamental changes that I see happening right now is that this is not a change that we chose. Like, this is a change that has been thrust upon us, but it is a change. And in my experience, a lot of the same dynamics of dealing with it effectively, getting through it, handling it well, being a contributor versus sucking the life out of other people, whatever it is, has a lot to do with understanding how change works and how to successfully navigate change. Whether the change is something that we desire or whether it's something that again has been thrust upon us. I've been working with a client down in San Diego for about a year now, and they have a change that's kind of a hybrid of those 2 things. They're growing so fast that it's really difficult for them to keep up. Like, they're literally delivering 600% more product than they were a year ago. And they're in the biotech world. So this is continuing even with everything that's going on in the world there. They're now delivering 600% more product and all their people have to work from home. So what they're trying to do is they're trying to maintain their culture, maintain the way they do business, who they are, their mission, their vision, their purpose amidst this incredible change that they kind of created it themselves. They kind of did that first part, you know, with a change that they desire. And now they're kind of dealing with the be careful what you ask for because it's hard. Like what they're dealing with right now. Like if you could pick your problems, that's a good one to have. But the truth is, if your company is growing at a 600% annual rate, you've got some serious challenges that you're faced with. And if you are committed to maintaining the culture that you've built, it's really difficult when you're bringing in so many new people so fast. Last time I was in San Diego working with them, they had 180 open job postings. Yeah. How do you even conceive of that? But the truth is we have this dynamic of now dealing with change that has been thrust upon us as opposed to last time you and I talked. And I think in this world of personal professional development, we tend to focus a lot on the changes that people want to create in their lives. We want to make more money. We want to lose weight. We want to improve our relationships. We want to make a bigger contribution. It's human nature, right? Like we want We want to improve. We want to grow. We want to be better. And we can help people do that. And I think you and I both do. Now it's different, though. But the same information, the same ideas, the same skill sets, the same perspective, I find, helps people deal really effectively with this crazy change that's coming our way.

Yes.

And then the other thing that I think is really different is the uncertainty looking ahead. You know, that we have this change. We're in the middle of it. It's taken our whole life and it's like it's in a box and it just got dumped out on the table, you know, just this big mess right now.

I want to dig into even a little bit more, see where we go with it, Rick, because I just called you Rick. I can't believe I just called you Rick. That's so funny. Robert.

You know what's the weirdest thing? I get Rick and Richard.

You do?

It must be a pre—

I get Mark only because of my last name, I think. Yeah, because Markel, they call me Mark. But you know, it's funny because I had a guy by the name of Rick Paddock on the show just recently. He

must be a really smart, good-looking guy.

Yeah, you guys actually couldn't look any more different. Yeah, I won't say what that means, poor old Rick. But the vision piece, I want to tie that to our conversation and people can also check out that, your show as well. We'll put that in the show notes so people can maybe talk. Wow, the pace of change over the last couple of years has been rapid. And if you're a leader, a business owner, an entrepreneur, you know exactly what I'm talking about. Every day it's something different and something new. But the one thing that I've learned in performing at the height of all of those roles has been that we must be resilient. In fact, it's the unsung hero in every success story that you will ever hear about. And it's the reason why my team and I created the resilience assessment that more than 5 business leaders across the globe have taken, and all you have to do to get your own free Resilient Leader Assessment is go to resiliencerank.com. It takes less than 3 minutes, and it's our gift to you for being the leader that you already are. Other free resources and tools will accompany your score instantly. So go to resiliencerank.com and find out just how resilient you are. Tie these 2 conversations together, be fun, hopefully. Where we talked about the fact that in the pivot principle and in the book Pivot, we talk about pivot by design and pivot by default. And I think what you're talking about, the things that we've been helping people with for a long time are the things they want. And so creating a design, a plan for it, and vision has a big piece of that. And then there's this whole sense of change by default. pivot by default where we're not necessarily actively, proactively pursuing some change. Like people could have been 6 months ago proactively, actively pursuing a change in their business model including working virtually, having a remote workforce, serving clients in a different way, using more virtual means as a way to get off the plane and out of the cars and It could have been that our carbon emissions were so driving a person to a place of, you know what, I got to do my part for the world and stop driving when I don't need to be driving or on a plane when I don't need to be on a plane. I mean, there's always to look back and go, yeah, 6 months ago, I could have been thinking about how am I going to serve my clients in the future given the fact that we know that there are all these other concerns about our natural resources and about the environment and about any number of other things, including a pandemic. Because I was watching last night as Trevor Noah—

Noah.

Right, was interviewing Bill Gates. And Bill Gates kind of famously, or maybe infamously at the moment, delivered a TED Talk 5 or 6 years ago where he talked about the advent of a pandemic and what that might mean and how we ought to be thinking about it and proactively doing some things. And he even on that interview said, you know, some of the stuff that they talked about, they put into action. They raised— well, they didn't have to raise money, they've got a massive foundation, so they deployed money and got involved in some early-stage things that are actually helping us a little bit now. But the bulk of what they were concerned about and were alerting the world to through his TED Talk, they really didn't do much with. They didn't really get a lot of traction. That part of it was working on a cure for malaria. And a number of other things and a sanitation, you know, number of other things that took also money and focus. And so this was on his mind. He did a TED Talk and yet fast forward all these years later, it has created such a disruption that even a Bill Gates who was well ahead of thinking about it wasn't fully prepared. And of course he's fine and, you know, they're deploying $100 million already out of their foundation to assist in funding the vaccine, basically funding 7 groups that are into independently working on the vaccine, et cetera. So this idea of a pivot that involves us being able to create a new vision, I think, is the area that I wanted to tackle with you right now because I'm positing that the uncertainty now isn't really very different than the uncertainty we were dealing with 2 months ago. We just were unaware, let's say, or sleeping more comfortably Not thinking about the advent of a pandemic, not thinking about the advent of massive macro change to the workforce or the structure of the workplace. Because again, maybe 20 years ago, The Future of Work, whose author, I can't remember his name right now, but I'm looking at the book in my bookcase, and he was talking about these things 20 years ago. So you go, okay, we just were in our own little comfort zone. All of us collectively as a globe, I think, feeling that somehow or another, the massive change wasn't on the horizon. And yet, we all got clipped and is a pivot by default for sure. And what I want to ask you about is what's the best way for a person to be creating their vision now for a future that does not yet exist? Is that an impossible task, Robert? I mean, I'm asking you.

Well, I think it is a more challenging task. And at the same time, I think you bring up a really good point, which is, is all this talk about uncertainty and looking ahead and we don't know, as if we knew before. And the truth is, what I hear you saying is it's a good reminder that we never really knew. Like, there never really was any certainty. The truth is, I think there is more uncertainty. I think the uncertainty is a lot more obvious. Anyone who's pretending they know what's going to happen right now, doesn't really have much. And going back to your legal background, they don't have a very good case. Before, we could at least make a case, right? We could predict based on what had been happening up until now.

Yeah.

I think it was Napoleon Hill who really emphasized— oh no, Jim Rohn actually has a great quote. If you— everybody huddle around, I'll tell you exactly the way things are going to be in the future. It's going to be pretty much the way it's always been. You know, winter follows. You know, the seasons come and the seasons go. And yet, there is this illusion of certainty. And the truth is we don't know. And I do believe that this is a historic time. Like 3 months ago, you and I could have had a conversation and reminded people that we really don't know and they should get on with their pivot and get on with creating their vision. Because the truth is we don't know and we'll do the best we can and we'll be ready to shift on the fly. It's great to have a plan, but don't get attached to your plan. Be ready. to adjust once you start taking action, getting feedback and all those things. The truth is, this is different. Like, I still think it's important to be looking at our vision and doing the best we can to craft one. But again, I'm Mr. Vision and values and value. And I mean, I'm thinking of my youngest daughter again, who had— she graduated from college. She had a little party here at the house and she had a friend who was starting a business and her friend and I got in this conversation. About the work that she was doing and this company that she was starting and my work and Excellent Decisions and the whole concept. And her friend goes to my daughter and says, oh, I just talked to your dad and he was talking about vision and values and value and how important that is. And my daughter's like, oh my God, enough with the vision and the values and the value. That's all we ever hear about, you know. So this is what I'm talking about all the time. And I do think, again, this is historic. Like, this really is a time where, you know, like the people that I'm working with right now on their vision, it's a different conversation. Yes. It's not a business as usual kind of conversation. And I do think there's elements of that conversation that are on pause while we figure out, you know, how long is this gonna go on? What businesses are gonna come through this? What businesses aren't gonna come through this? And You know, it was different a week ago. I think it's going to be different a week ahead. And I think there are good things that can come out of this. I think there are some horribly tragic things that are going to come out of this. And I heard a story not too long ago. You talk about people pivoting. I heard a story about a woman who was right in the middle of her pivot when this all happened.

Sure.

And she had quit her job and moved into a new career in the hospitality industry. She was moving her family to Las Vegas to take a job, a very high-level Like management position in a casino hotel property. And then this happened and she lost her job and she lost where she was living and she's there in Las Vegas with her family and it's crazy. It's not normal. Like, and she may have followed all the right steps as far as, you know, making that pivot and setting herself up for success and the path that she was taking. She may have done everything right. And then out of left field comes this crazy situation. Who Could have predicted it several months ago. We kind of should have seen it coming. That's a separate conversation about getting prepared.

This is maybe a good time to sort of transition into what will buoy people through this in this moment. And my answer would be this, the principle of resilience, that we've got to develop resilience in this moment. And maybe it's greater resilience because most people would probably define themselves as having some level of resilience. And so I want to get your take on resilience. There's 3 things in particular that I want to bring up in just a little bit about resilience, but what's your feeling about what resilience looks like and how important has it been for you? How important do you think it is for your clients right now? Because the vision, as you said, part of it is that there's maybe greater uncertainty than we were aware of before, but I didn't hear you say just because that we can't necessarily see, we shouldn't have a vision because that's— you could— million analogies for that. But if you've got radar then, or GPS even, or any of those kind of things that allow you to navigate in the dark, navigate when there's clouds or fog or any of that, we know that it doesn't have to stop us simply because we can't see. And creating a vision, a flight plan, or sort of a roadmap, if you will, that those things are vitally important even in times where we've got limited physical vision. And I think in the world of flying, they call it VFR versus IFR. And I only know that because my uncle's a pilot. And so VFR is the kind of thing where you're rated to be able to fly when you can see clearly. I don't know what that means, 10 miles or something like that. And it's a clear sky, clear day, then you're allowed based on your skill set to fly a plane. Under VFR conditions, and if the conditions change, you got to land. That's it. And then there's IFR, which is instrument rating, I guess.

Right.

And that means you can fly when you can't see a freaking thing. And I think with, you know, the tragic accident involving John Kennedy Jr., he was a VFR-rated pilot, as I recall, and he was flying in conditions where the fog didn't allow him to see. And that resulted in that fatal accident. I just bring that up as well because I think your work right now, I think the work of creating a vision is more important now than it's ever perhaps been because the conditions. It's one thing for a person to go, hey, you know what, I can eyeball it. I don't need that instrument rating thing. I can see and I've always, you know, trusted my ability to just see and governed by my sight, but clearly seeing is limited right now. The markets can't see. That's why they're so upside volatile because they can't— they don't have the transparency to know what's going to happen. So I think your work is vitally important right now, Robert. I want to tie the vision piece if we can to this concept of resilience, get your thoughts on that.

It's interesting because the flight analogy came up also recently with the Kobe Bryant tragedy and the helicopter crash. Same kind of thing, very foggy day. And pilot, was he certified? Did he have the level of experience necessary to fly in those conditions? And it is a really powerful analogy. I also think it's a powerful analogy because it's a good reminder kind of in the opposite way where we think of flight, you know, and this is life and death. Like when I get in a helicopter and if I'm with my daughter, I want to know that I'm flying with somebody who knows what the heck they're doing, right? Like whether it's foggy, they knew it was foggy when they took off. I would imagine, and I think that same pilot that Kobe had flown with him for years, I think he trusted him and you would want to have somebody that you trust. I think it's also important to remember with most of the decisions that we're making, with most of the day-to-day like actions that we're taking, it's not that life and death. Like when we look at what to do next with our business, there's an opportunity to lean into it and lean into the uncertainty and be willing to take action and do things knowing that it's not life and death. In my business, I can try something new. I can try a new approach. I can see how it works. I can get feedback. If the feedback says, whoa, bad move, not working, stop doing that, try something else. If the feedback says, ooh, good idea, that really worked, do that again, you know, do more of it, right? And in terms of resiliency, I find it really interesting because again, you know, my daughter was picking on me about it. Vision, values, value, enough already. You know, I've heard it. I have the language that I use in my model. with excellent decisions. And it does. It comes up over and over again. And people sometimes ask me, well, what about this? What about purpose? Now, where does purpose fit into your model? And I'll say, well, if you have a really clear vision and it's in alignment with your values, I believe you're on purpose. So I stay focused on vision and values. If you do both of those things, you'll end up on purpose in a really powerful way. And truthfully, resilience is not a word that I use a lot. In my work, in my conversations that I'm having. People ask me about excellent decisions and I'm explaining it or whatever. When you said that, what came up for me really clearly in this moment was that resilience is a combination of clarity, like I know what's really important to me, I know where I'm going, and strength. Like it's great to have clarity, but if I don't have the strength necessary, and the strength I believe will ultimately be measured by the willingness to take action, Like to try something, to get into the game, even if there is uncertainty. And this is, I think, where it connects to the current situation and the idea of resiliency is to be willing to lean into that uncertainty, to step into the dark, to step into the fog, to try something to see if it works. And the truth is, I believe if you're not willing to do that, you're not exhibiting resiliency. And if you are willing to do that, on some level you are. Yes. Resiliency.

Right, because what's the alternative? Then you're not instrument-rated, you must be grounded. Yeah,

you are. You're grounded.

It's funny you say that because I'm just picking up this book here that says that there's a pivot point that's just so on point with what you just said, which is resilience is the ability to experience setbacks or failures and use them to create momentum. So it's A very assertive principle that you're not grounded even when you can't see, that you use these things as a catalyst to create momentum.

Yeah. And if there is some very real danger, if the fog is so thick that it is not a good time to take action, then pay attention to that. And there's some pretty thick fog out there right now, metaphorically speaking. And it's a good time to be really intentional and really rigorous about the decisions that we make and the actions that we take and to be sensitive to other people and really aware and paying attention. And I believe the truth is for most of us with what we're dealing with on a day-to-day basis with our business or with our family or my wife and I are sheltered in place, we're empty nesters, there's a communication dynamic. There's an importance of being really rigorous about how we communicate. You know, it's important. I've been married for 30 years. I've learned it's important to listen to my wife.

So you have a resilient relationship.

I do.

We're married.

But you know what? It's different now.

People right now who are in those same exact situations are just chomping at the bit to know what someone like yourself who's married 30-plus years and is an empty nester at home, and you're saying that the communication is so important and it's changed. Tell us what that looks like for you.

What that means to me is that everything that's always been important is right now even more important. Like listening, my willingness and ability to listen, my willingness and ability to think before I speak, my willingness and ability to pause. And we had this kind of running joke. I mean, I was traveling a lot before all this happened. I was traveling like Half the month I was gone and we kind of joke, you know, the more I'm gone, the better we get along. It's good to have some space. It's good for any relationship to have some space. And the truth is we don't have any space right now. Like, we both work at home. It's not that much different for us. You know, we live in Sonoma, we both work from home, shelter in place, stay at home. You know, it's not that much different except for the travel piece.

Yes.

And it's right now, it's all day, every day. And again, I would just say the things that are always important in relationships, the things that we know are important in relationships, to be grateful and to listen and to express appreciation, you know, to communicate effectively, to think before you speak, all these kinds of things, they're always important. But I believe, and it goes back to a lot of things we've been talking about, like in the current situation and circumstances, they're even Yeah.

And we have a great opportunity for a reset in many ways in those relationships as well because we have the time to be able to recover together, to be able to pay more close attention to those priorities that we know are priorities, but they don't always look like priorities because of the difference between or the delta between what we say and what we do. And that's where our kids, to circle back to what we said earlier, our kids are great at that. When you've done a, I think, a decent job as a parent, you'll find that your kids in a respectful way will hold that mirror up and let you know when you're missing the mark, which, you know, you and I talked about this at the beginning. So—

I'm sorry, just the scenarios are just running through my mind.

I know, right? Oh my God.

But I agree with you. It's a beautiful thing. It's not fun in the moment, but it is a great thing. And every time it happens, I am so deeply Grateful. That's what they hear, that that's what they see, and that I have a relationship with them where they can call me out on it. They don't go and complain to their mother about me, or they don't complain to each other about me. We have a conversation. And again, that's— how else would I want it to be? It's a beautiful thing.

Randy and I are sheltering in place as well. We've got our youngest college student daughter with us, so we're— we have this kind of a running joke about how we kicked them all out of the nest and now they're back, or at least one of them is back. And we're like, oh my God. And she tells her friends, you know, I'm cramping my parents' style and all that kind of thing. It's pretty funny. So we've got a little bit of both here, but in the relationship area, I know that one of the great benefits of what's happening now is the fact that Randi and I have— we are going back to a principle from years ago that first kind of arrived on the scene for us right after 9/11, and that was to create a base camp to think about where's that place and what are those things that we do on a ritual basis that creates a grounding for us. So Basecamp is a place where— and it's not just a physical place, but it's the way that we get to come back to what you described earlier as the most fundamentally important things to be paying attention to in our relationship. So for us, Basecamp is physically home now, but it's also the things we'll do together that we make time for. So every day, pretty much without exception, We create a little date night and our date night is, we're not going to the movies, we're not going out to a restaurant. So date nights look a little bit different, but it might be that it's movie in a bath. You know, it's sitting in that Epsom salt bath is a really great date night for us these days. Taking a daily walk and doing yoga together and meditating side by side. I mean, there's just so many things that can be done to enjoy the fruits of the moment. That we would otherwise be off doing what we're doing. I was the same way as you, a lot of travel for public speaking and the like. And my beloved would sometimes say to me, you know, don't you have some travel booked? You know, I've been home a long time. She said, don't you have a little travel booked on the calendar? And it's like, maybe we should get you some. And obviously, that's not the case anymore. So, we go, holy smokes, we better really get good at and even better at what we've been good at. You know, we've come this far and have a resilient relationship through much Great time and many stressful times. So, as promised, I guess the 3 things I'll quickly end on and then you and I'll share some final thoughts is that from our research, resilience is not so much about endurance as it is about recovery. And so, in the order, in terms of the traits that we find resilient people and resilient business owners have, one of them is that they have this capacity to ritualize their recovery. The things you do on a ritual basis to recover. And by recovery, I mean in both the mental area, the physical area, of course, and your emotional and even spiritual parts of your life. That what are the rituals that you have that you've created or that you can create to create a recovery in those key areas? Because many people have been exhausted mentally and now there's an opportunity here to reset. And to allow some space to be creative with in between our ears as an example. And physically, are you allowing yourself the opportunity to get more rest finally, to finally catch up on my sleep? Are you paying attention to what you're putting in your body, the foods and what you're drinking and any number of other things? So we've got a resilience assessment tool that we typically will give to corporate audience. I'll just mention it here. We don't typically talk about this on the podcast, but it's your.resilienceculture.com, your.resilienceculture.com. And that's a self-assessment in looking at these 4 areas where you create resilience in your life: mental, emotional, physical, and spiritual. So the rituals are key. The second thing is our ability to look at situations that are happening in our lives, including that great uncertainty, and simply be neutral. If you can be neutral about it, and that means not judging whether it's good or bad or be a great thing for you or it'll be an awful thing for you, but simply to get to neutral so you can, in some state of quiet or even just, yeah, neutralness, that you can ask, what's the creative opportunity here? There are so many creative opportunities that we had a few months ago that we're now executing on now because we were forced to. What are the creative opportunities that exist in this moment that we could be ahead of the curve in implementing, but for the fact that we spend a lot of time worrying, a lot of time in fear, a lot of time just energetically not in the present moment because we're really thinking, God, I can't see out there. 6 months from now, my plane could crash. I really hope you're enjoying this episode. Of the Change Proof podcast. If you've not yet gone out and gotten your own copy of Change Proof, it's not too late. You can get your copy right now by going to changeproof.com and not only getting the book and all the bonuses there, but getting access to our proprietary resilience assessment tool. It'll just take you 3 minutes to do, and it's something that will really help You know, and all that kind of stuff. And the last thing is the recalculation principle. This is the thing that the GPS teaches us every time we've been in the car. And we make a wrong turn, it's not berating us for the stupidity of our decision-making. And you're the decision-making expert here. It's that, what's the next best decision I can make?

Right.

So, let's make a right turn up here so we can get back on track as opposed to, let's pull off the side of the road and spend the next few hours just being upset that we missed the last turn. So, I want to go back to you, Robert, with any final thoughts, but I've so loved our conversation.

Me too. Oh, that— and that last part you were talking about, I love to say 3 rights don't make a wrong, but they do make a left. So when you make a wrong turn, if you just make 3 rights, it equals a left. I would just want to go back. This has been really interesting, like the distinctions around the concepts around vision. And do we give up on vision now? Do we stay with vision? And the story you shared about your family and your approach at home, I think, is a really good example of the importance A vision because you clearly— anyone who listens to you share that story knows that you have a vision of how you want your relationship to be even in these trying times, even when you're not traveling, even though circumstances are different and you're doing specific things to increase the likelihood of that happening even though it's all new, right? I don't know about you but I've never been told that I can't go out. Like just my wife and I, we're in the house and it's just us and we're not going anywhere for Weeks, months, that's all new. But still, we have a vision of how we want that relationship to be and the way we're thinking, the ideas we're getting about cooking together or going for a walk together or taking a bath, whatever, a date night, even though you can't go out. We're thinking in a certain way that's more likely to create that outcome. We're making decisions in a way that's more likely to create that outcome. And ultimately, we're taking action. We're trying stuff, you know, get in the bath. And she says, I don't want you in my bath. I want my bath alone. Don't do that again. You know?

Yeah.

But with the best of intentions, with the intention of fulfilling that vision of a really great relationship staying great even under these crazy circumstances, the vision really is driving it. So again, I just think that's a really great example to kind of wrap up that I think there was some uncertainty around that conversation about vision. Are they telling me to stick with my vision, give up on my vision? No, definitely as best we can. Stay with that vision and also stay in action. It was a really beautiful example of that.

Yeah. Thank you for assisting in closing the loop on that because I think there are a lot of people who feel like, I'm grounded right now. I can't do anything. I don't know what to do. I've got to wait and see. And it's that whole wait and see thing. And I'm really happy you came back to that because I'm probing at it. And I guess curiosity and questioning More than anything, that there's no time when vision is not the central guiding principle, because otherwise you literally are stagnant. And we said long ago, stagnation, at a minimum, it doesn't take us anyplace. We just stay right where we are. So I think there's a bit of an interesting dichotomy here because we're being told to stay in one place. And I don't know to what extent the order, the directive to stay in one place, is actually energetically on some subconscious level, maybe locking people in place in terms of creating a vision and looking at the innovation possibilities right now for themselves, for their business, for their career, for their life. So, so appreciate your insights on that, Robert. Thank you very, very much today.

You're welcome. Thank you for the invitation. Always a pleasure.

Wonderful. The last question I want to ask you, Robert, and then this will lead into the way I close out these segments anyway, is What's one ritual that you've got to help you to create more resilience for yourself? I know you don't think in terms of that term a lot, but what's one thing you do on a ritual basis to support you?

One thing. I'm a huge believer in rituals also, and I'm going to take 2. One's real quick in the sense going back to what you were saying about at this particular time, my wife and I are walking together. And like last night, she said, hey, you ready to take a walk? And I really didn't want to go for a walk, but I'm recognizing the importance of that ritual. And the other ritual that comes to mind for me is to this day, I maintain my running ritual. I get so much benefit. It opens me up. It frees me. It's my way to kind of escape from all the things I get kind of wrapped up in. It's my way to get out, to open up. It's like a meditation for me. Running is a huge ritual. In my experience, it benefits every area of my life. It benefits me physically, mentally, emotionally, spiritually. It's a huge valuable ritual. If I have some sort of injury or some sort of circumstance that makes it difficult for me to get my run in, I notice the difference. It's a really important ritual for me.

Beautiful. And I'll add my ritual to the pile. And this is a waking ritual. So my ritual is to wake up, which I hope everybody will join in that ritual.

That's a good ritual.

Yeah. That's a good one to have. Wake up. That's part 1. Part 2, be grateful that you actually did wake up.

Mm-hmm.

It's not a throwaway line. I really believe it's just like we started this podcast. Can you find gratitude in this moment? And certainly upon waking, there's a whole lot to be grateful for. And the third piece of that, the last piece of that is stating something out loud that I want to be true. And in all honesty, I feel this to be true. More or less in every day, and less is possible. There's things that make you not necessarily feel love for what's going on in your life, and yet I start every day by saying, I love my life. Those 4 words, I love my life, and I want it to be true, and more often than not it is true, and more often than not it's true no matter what.

Mm-hmm.

Right now, can you love your life? That's my question to all of you out there. Can you love your life? Even in the face of everything that is uncertain and all the things that Robert and I were just talking about. So I hope the answer to that is yes. And if it's not yes, maybe you can try on pretending. Seriously, try on pretending. What would it be like? What would it look like? What would it feel like to love your life no matter what? That's my question and I'll leave it there. And again, Robert, just such a wonderful time for us as always just to get together and—

Always great to connect. Appreciate the opportunity.

Beautiful. Everybody have a wonderful rest of your day and ciao. We'll speak and hopefully see each other again soon.

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