#179: Navigating The “New Normal“ Of Virtual Events with Rainey Foster

Good morning.

So that's a mouthful. And for me right now, at this point in the morning, I was like, wow, I was able to get all those words in.

I'm

impressed. What's not written in that bio that you would love for people to know about you?

Well, I just realized it's really outdated because I've been on the board for First Summer for 15 years, which is a great, a great organization and a soup kitchen and rehab and training and all kinds of medical facilities for our homeless. And then we, the board and the donations and the charity actually goes out and buys buildings and allows young adults and young families to also live affordably in DC. So I guess the thing that is important for me, for people to know, is just that I've been very blessed in being able to do what I love to do throughout my life. The first 11 years of my professional career, I starved to death because my forte is jazz. So that and 50 cents will get you across town. And I didn't ever think I would find anything that I would love as much as I do the business that you and I are in, which is recognizing talent and recruiting talent and sharing talent and knowledge with the world in a really impactful way. And it's— I kind of think it's like being on Jeopardy. Every day I meet somebody new, I learn something new. I am an expert on Bitcoin and fintech, and I didn't even know what that was 2, 3 years ago. It's a fascinating business, and I am I'm very, very grateful for the opportunities to work in such a cool business and meet such fabulous, wonderful people that actually change the world.

Resilience. It's the unsung hero in every success story that you will ever hear about. And in times of massive change and disruption, the kind of rapid change that we're all experiencing as leaders, as business owners, as entrepreneurs, we have to learn how to not only increase our own resilience, but that of our teams. So right now we have a powerful opportunity for you to find out just how resilient you are. Some years ago, my team and I created the resilience assessment that more than 5,000 business leaders across the globe have taken. And all you have to do to get your own free resilience leader assessment is go to resiliencerank.com. It takes less than 3 minutes, and it's our gift to you for being the leader that you already are. Other free resources and tools will accompany your score instantly. So go to resiliencerank.com. You know what's interesting about jazz, and you're far more knowledgeable about this than I am, although I grew up just listening to it. My dad had it on a lot. It's such a beautiful form. The part I'm fascinated about, I want to ask you about, is that there's— we talk about resonance. People use that term a lot. Will that— does that resonate with you, or is it something that resonates? And so we get that. That resonance is sort of this harmony of sound, and people go, oh, you know, that, that just sounds great. It feels great. It inspires wonderful feelings inside. But there's also in jazz dissonance. There's resonance and dissonance. I mean, that's what makes jazz in many ways so different than other forms of music, because there's these sort of notes that ring and you go, okay, that's a note I recognize. That note sounds the way it's supposed to sound. And then there are these dissonant notes, these notes that are almost like they sound like they're off. And so isn't that a sort of a metaphor in so many ways for life itself, that there's resonance and dissonance, and that without the dissonance in jazz, we wouldn't be craving the resonance without those other notes? So what— tell me about your, your experience in jazz. And you were playing instruments or you were singing? What were

you— No, I'm a singer, and I love that metaphor because my uncle was my mentor. He— his name was George Greeley, and he was a prodigy. So from the time he was 3 years old, he picked up the mandolin and started to play it. My grandfather was a music teacher, and it became very clear very quickly that he was gifted. So the whole family out of Westbury, Rhode Island sort of put all their energy behind this favored son, who was the oldest son, and he went to Juilliard at the age of 13. Then he joined— when he, when he graduated from Juilliard, he— I think he was 16 when he went to Juilliard. Yeah, that would have been really young at 13. But when he graduated, he had a choice to go either the concert route or to go kind of the big band route. And being a great-looking Italian guy with a smile just like yours, he went sort of the big band route. So he actually joined Tommy Dorsey's band the same day that Frank Sinatra did, and they became great friends. And my uncle used to say all the time, I don't know why all the women are falling over this skinny Italian with the big ears and the blue eyes. I'm killing myself on the piano back here. But he was a remarkable artist, and as a child, I grew up listening to his records. He was— when Warner Brothers formed their recording label in 1960, he was their first artist. And so he did probably 25 albums with 40-piece orchestra with Warner Brothers. And they were everything from George Greely Plays George Gershwin, to the great concert themes, to the great movie themes. And his album on Gershwin is one that my parents played and I grew up with. And it really— Gershwin really resonated with me, particularly the score to Porgy and Bess. And the dissidents and the blues and all of that. So while my contemporaries in like the '70s and the '80s were listening to the Moody Blues and the Rolling Stones, I was singing— I was singing the blues. I was singing, you know, Summertime, or— And I was listening to the scores of that. My uncle's recording of the Rhapsody in Blue was shortened, and, and there was a lot of criticism about that, except Ira Gershwin, who of course was the lyricist and And the brother of George Gershwin called my uncle over and said, hey kid, I want to talk to you. And my uncle said, I'd just love like 2 hours of your time. And he went over there and 3 days later he left, before he actually scored this album. So that was a huge influence on me. And one of my challenges when I moved to Los Angeles to sing was that there really wasn't a great appreciation for jazz. And I was marketed to do a lot of different things. It made me into a much better singer. But when I came to my real truth about what resonated with me, I realized that maybe 5 people, 4 of them being my family, would really greatly appreciate it. And I had a remarkable ride learning production and learning how to work in a studio and how to resonate and how not to resonate, not to use your vibrato, because in recording with popular music, you know, pop or country, you never use your vibrato. You know, and it's like, for God's sake, don't use your vibrato. So, you know, all of that was a great experience. But, you know, I, after 11 years, I thought what I really love is jazz, and that's what I'd like to sing. I don't want to go on the road singing anything that isn't really true to me. And I did do a project in Nashville, and they were the nicest people I've ever met in my life, and they were the best musicians I ever met in my life too. And they loved me in Nashville. They kept saying, girl, you got the hair. You know,

I don't— You got the hair for this.

Got the hair for this.

I get that all the time. I don't know.

You got the hair for this. And my maiden name was Wheeler, so they loved that. It's like Rainey Wheeler, Rainey 18 Wheeler. That could work. And I said, but I was born in New York. Hey, don't, don't tell anybody that, you know. So I, you know, I think that, you know, to answer your question, I was really exposed to really remarkable artistry through my uncle. very early on, it resonated with me. One of the challenges was that I was 24 years old singing songs that I really didn't earn the right to sing yet, because I think getting back to the original metaphor, you know, there is— there are the beautiful full ingenue notes, and then there's the dissonance, and it's a great analogy for life. And you have to live life, and you have to, you know, experience the joys and the remarkable sorrows. To sing jazz well. And at this point in life, in my 50s, I feel like I've earned the right to sing jazz based on my experiences.

Is there a lesson for us today about jazz? Because I didn't expect that we'd, we'd end up here in our conversation. And this is— and what a joy. I mean, that's— how do we take what you just said, this, this concept of our experience in life is, is often modeled in our art? I mean, it's— we see it all the time that art is imitating life, and, and even the other way around in, in some other, other places in the world right now. What are the lessons, or is there a lesson you can think of from, from jazz that we could think about?

Like, again, you know, there's— I think it— when emotion becomes too great for words, there's music. That's always something that I, I believe in, and that's why a great musical has a great script, has a great book, but then when you move into the musical part, it resonates and it feels so I just think it's a great mirror for life, and jazz particularly has a lot of angst in it. It has a lot of pain in it, and, and I think that we're all feeling that pain right now. It can be reflected. It doesn't have a great appreciation, you know, for a Cleo Lane or an Oscar Peterson, one of the world's greatest pianists, but—

Or a Bill Evans.

Yeah, yeah. There's— but there's a, there's a joy, I think, in sort of being able to feel things on such a deep level. And, and I think we're all feeling that now, you know, in many ways. As you know, I personally had a lot of personal loss in my life in, in a very short amount of time, all sudden tragic deaths— my, my husband, my sister, my brother, my business partner. And, you know, there— and believe me, I, I can now sing the blues, but you can't stay in that place. There's got to be a A way to feel the gratitude for and recognize the love and the experience that you had, and also be able to find, you know, the next place, understanding— and I think the greatest lesson is that really all you have is now. Now. Right this minute. So, you know, it's either chicken salad or it's chicken shit. What are you going to make it be? And there's a lot of chicken shit, but I I choose to try to figure out how to make chicken salad.

That expression, you know, people singing the blues, just evaluating it in my own mind as I'm sitting here with you, that singing the blues is in some ways it almost feels like someone who is placed where they're— well, there's certainly sadness there and maybe even victimness there and maybe even a place where you're in a state of self-pity. And I'm bringing that up only because I think there's something that's even pejorative, and that something about singing the blues sounds negative, some way that it sounds like that's something we shouldn't necessarily do. And maybe that's, maybe that's a part of the challenge of blues. I don't— I didn't know that this was gonna be a music theory podcast, right? It's interesting because jazz has never been widely, widely appreciated.

No.

Just hasn't. And I think in part it's because it takes us You know, I'm going to just say this. You could call bullshit on it if you think so. But does it take us into darker places that many people are uncomfortable sort of being in? And is it somehow just part of a human experience that people deny, that we've got to be able to experience darkness in order to also appreciate lightness or other things? Thoughts on that?

Yeah, I think, I think that when you are living through darkness, and I think we've all experienced that on different levels, that I'm a firm believer that you have to grieve. Like, we're right now, all of us are grieving, you know, being able to just go out to the store. You know, I'm planning a trip to Puerto Rico in a couple of weeks to get a cat because I lost my cat. And the only place I can meet this woman who has a cat that I want is in Puerto Rico. Puerto Rico, but I can't figure out how to do it without taking 4 COVID tests. But I mean, I think you, you need to grieve. People are grieving their freedom and their life and the choices in the past, the way business used to be, the certainty, that kind of thing. It's super important to grieve, you know, whether it's a death or whether it's a process or something that's familiar or a lifestyle, because— and grief isn't linear. It's not like I'm in denial. I am angry. I am bargaining. I have accepted it and I'm done. It's not a linear process. And again, I'm really talking about how most people are feeling right now as they grieve a life that they knew, a certainty, a lifestyle, and, you know, a complete confidence level that they can pay their mortgage, pay their rent, continue going. It's super difficult. So you grieve. And as you— because it can kill you if you don't, whatever. But what's the next step? How to be proactive? How do you turn it around? What can you do right now in this moment to make the difference in the change? And that becomes very important, I think. And a lot of times, I think for all of us too, it's not just a day at a time. Sometimes it's an hour at a time. It's an hour at a time. And as we've all gone through this remarkable Earthquake in our business. How do we create something different? How do we pivot, to use your term? How do we pivot quickly, effectively, not reactively but proactively, so that you can create whatever, you know, if it's personal goodness, impact, success, you know, income for your family? I mean, I think we're all highly aware of the people that are just really, really suffering right now.

Yeah.

You know, our industry, yours and mine, Adam, has been hit super hard. You know, similar to the cruise line industry or the airline industry. There's business out there. There's— and clients need to be, you know, clients need remarkable guidance right now, more so than they did before, where you were just calling about, hey, who do you need for a speaker? It's like, wow, I need to, I need to produce a film. 4-day meeting virtually, I have 4 general sessions on each day, I want some— something entertainment at night, and I have 5 concurrent sessions on that same day.

Yes.

That's the business I'm in now, which was one that I never anticipated being in. I considered myself, you know, an artist who was an agent, who understood talent, who recognized talent, who nurtured talent. And who plays talent. And now I am doing that virtually as well in our company as producing virtual meetings with my remarkable colleagues who have been producing in-person meetings for many years and pivoted super quickly to embrace the challenges of having companies and trade associations touch their, their clients and their members and their employees in an impactful way in a virtual world.

They've had to be resilient for sure. You know, it's interesting, the grieving process you brought up earlier. I'm just curious, how do you think corporations, how do organizations properly grieve?

Well, I think again, you can't rest on the success of the past. I mean, I think that you have to recognize what you've done and what's worked, and then you need to figure out what's going to work and hopefully take care of your people in the process. Take care of your people because, you know, what worked yesterday is not— isn't going to work today. So companies need to, you know, get out of the past and even get out of the present, and they really need to figure out how to navigate the future. And I think that only works if there's a really good culture in place and they care about their people and they take care of their people. I'm super proud to say at Leading Authorities, We've let go of 5 people and they were all new hires in the first week of this. And it was just one of those, not sure what's gonna happen. And, you know, it was really brand new hires. We have actually hired 4 new producers in the last couple of weeks to embrace what is clearly where the business is going right now.

I knew I wore this shirt for a reason because not knowing that we might take the approach that we have, but having one another's backs at every organization I've ever been involved in or had the privileged to speak to or facilitate workshops for, that concept of how it is that a company truly demonstrates that they have people's backs is so important. As you said, you can use the word culture for it. It's the feeling that you have with family and real friends that when things are difficult, when there's grieving to be done, when there's loss in place, people don't just abandon you. And what does that really look like in a commercial setting? And I think those are conversations that are up for grabs right now in ways that they haven't been in the past. Because the kind of change and challenge that's out there is global. It's not relegated to a particular industry, even though, as we know—

Adam, I think there's some comfort in that. I think that my 92-year-old mom was saying, I can't go out. And I said, you know what, sweetheart? You are totally right. this is not just happening to you. We are all in the same boat.

All in the same boat.

This is happening everywhere, you know, and there is comfort in that. Because I think in isolated incidences, whether it's a personal loss, a death, you know, I can tell you personally that, you know, when you're grieving a death, you really feel like that people have remarkable empathy and really want to help. But unless they're willing to sort of Sit in that moment with you and say nothing. Just try to have the courage to just sit in that moment and not say, I know how you feel, but I'm gonna just sit here with you. You know, it's the same thing with, you know, what's happening now is we need to sit with each other. We need to say nothing. We need to recognize, you know, what's been lost and what is no longer possible. And also understand that we're all in it together. And there's great strength in that. There's great power in that. There's great reward in that. You know, where you work together, or maybe you were a solo player, now you're working in teams because, you know, for, you know, I understand how to produce, but I'm not making the switch to virtual production. I was kicking and screaming like a crazy person. You know, it was a baptism by fire. And then, then I learned, and I learned that I have colleagues that know more, and that as a team everybody has a role to play. And also in our team of people, we've worked— a lot of us have worked together for more than 23 years. So there's a lot of trust, and we have a remarkable event staff. They're wearing 5, 6, 7 different hats. They're, you know, they're— and I'm super proud of them because the bandwidth is— is ridiculous and not being able to see each other or be in the same room. That's something that I miss really greatly. I miss seeing my colleagues and being able to work the problem together. It's always virtual. It's always working it virtually or calling on the phone, but still you can feel that glue and, and there's a remarkable comfort in that. And also it works. It works on a pretty high level.

What are some of the things that we'd call the early stage wisdom? I mean, we always can look back on things with hindsight and say, well, this is what was there to be seen and what was also there to be learned. And it's always easier when you're off in the distance a ways. What so far in the first 6 months of this thing, in your industry, what are you seeing as the new best practices that are emerging? Things that, as you said, you wouldn't have necessarily anticipated, but now you realize this is what's true, this is the best way to meet organizations where they are in the moment.

The first task was to take care of the client. So, you know, when everything canceled, okay, you know, the answer was absolutely, we're going to kick this down the road. I'm going to make you whole. Let's just— you like this speaker for March 2020? How does he feel March 2021? You know, and I'm going to forward your deposit and I'm not going to collect the balance. And we're going to just, you know, unless a lot of the things that happened in March, things were already paid for. And with clients' permission, we paid our speakers. We paid our speakers and we issued $0 contracts because everybody needed that at that time. And then as time went on, you know, people agreed no one's going to get paid. No one's going to recognize revenue in 2020. We're going to kick it down the road to 2021 and make everybody whole. And so that was the first order of business. The second for us was just We had always had a production company for the last 20 years that was, as well as a video company. And my dear friend and partner, Mark French, who passed away a year ago May from stroke after a valiant recovery for 4 years. When I joined, I was kind of the crazy girl, you know, that he knew as a singer in LA through my sister and my brother. They had all worked together in the trucking industry and at the US Chamber. And I used to come to their parties when I lived in LA. come to their meetings, like the American Trucking Association or the U.S. Chambers meeting, and I would be wearing a belt that was really like as a skirt and hair down to my butt. And my sister would get me a room because I was a starving artist, and I would clean out the minibar, you know. And she'd be like, you know, we get audited, we get audited. I was like, she's cleaning out the minibar, for God's sake, you know. So that's how Mark was through my siblings who both worked at the 2 organizations within the American Trucking Association and the U.S. Chamber, and then he split off and founded Leading Authorities. So I was kind of the, you know, the crazy sister of Leslie and Clint who was starting this. So when I came back in '96 and I interviewed with him for a job, he took a chance and he hired me. And a couple years in, I realized that, you know, after, you know, understanding and being talent, that I really loved recruiting talent, recognizing talent, finding talent, placing talent. And also being consultative to clients on a different level, on a deeper level. My question to Mark was, you know, we need to do entertainment. Why aren't we doing entertainment? Our clients are doing entertainment, and we are not booking that. And so he said, well, that might be a good idea. What about Helen Reddy? And I said, okay, is she still alive? And he goes, well, Judy Collins. He was a huge fan of Herman Herman. I'm not kidding.

And he was in a different generation. And the '60s were his, you know, was his—

Hermit, you know, and every time you invite me to go see, you know, Mrs. Brown, you've got a lovely daughter. You know, so I said, why don't you let me handle this? Because, you know, again, this guy thought Dana Carvey was a stripper. So we started handling, forging relationships with big talent, it's the truth, big talent agencies. And was really excited to be placing big talent. And so the point of this was that that led to, hey, if we're placing your content and we're now placing your entertainment, could I get a bid on producing the rider for that music act? Could I produce that act? You know, because I think that we could get a team of people to do it. And then as long as I'm producing your entertainment, You know, I'd love a shot at the RFP for producing your own, your whole meeting, because after all, you have a stage, you've got lights, there's a lot of redundancy here. We're gonna have to bring in special microphones, racks and stacks.

Everything's related. Everything hangs on, on all those pieces that, that have to fit like, like puzzle pieces.

Right. Except it was just a place where traditional lecture agencies hadn't really gone before. And the whole purpose Because my background was in entertainment, I really wanted to go there. I wanted to book the economist. I wanted to book the leadership culture speaker, but I also wanted to book the entertainment. I wanted to go and I wanted to manage it and wrangle that talent. And that led to us eventually evolving into having a full-fledged production company for live production along with video. Because again, if you're booking these high-ticket items, why don't we go out to The Beach Boys and, you know, we'll film a video where they do a welcome video that you could clip and then send to your members, hey, don't miss us in October of 2020, we'll be there, etc. So that put us in a great position when this hit after we got after through the initial shock of literally thousands of cancellations, as you know, and all the paperwork and the tracking that happens to make sure that it's correct and everybody's whole and it's— Good and fair and right. But when we were able to really understand the chaos our clients were going through, you know, particularly trade associations, which is pretty indigenous to DC, Virginia, Maryland, and then professional societies in Chicago, where they just— a lot of their revenue comes from these meetings and they really need a way to touch their members. And various corporations as well need a way to touch their customers and remain connected. And also assure their employees. So we all had to kind of bite the bullet and really learn how to, you know, produce an impactful virtual meeting and be able to, in a way where clients understand that sometimes it can be just as expensive or more as an in-person.

Wow, the pace of change over the last couple of years has been rapid. And if you're a leader, a business owner, an entrepreneur, you know exactly what I'm talking about. Every day it's something different and something new, but the one thing that I've learned in performing at the height of all of those roles has been that we must be resilient. In fact, it's the unsung hero in every success story that you will ever hear about, and it's the reason why my team and I created the resilience assessment that more than 5,000 business leaders across the globe have taken and All you have to do to get your own free Resilient Leader Assessment is go to resiliencerank.com. It takes less than 3 minutes, and it's our gift to you for being the leader that you already are. Other free resources and tools will accompany your score instantly. So go to resiliencerank.com and find out just how resilient you are. If you're doing it with sort of a siloed approach, the possibility that the integrated whole is as meaningful as it can be is not as likely as when you have, as you said, someone that's looking at the whole thing and able to put those pieces together. Right. So you were more uniquely situated, I suppose, than a number of agencies because you already had production in the works. but not virtual. So what was that pivot like for you to sort of look at what best practices— how do you create that effective and impactful meeting over Zoom when people are Zoom fatigued and when perhaps there's just even not buy-in from companies? So it's kind of 2 parts of the question. One is, what are some of those things that you've learned that would be the wisdom that's guiding you now? Are the organizations, the associations, have they really bought into the idea that This is not just a temporary solution. It's not like we're going to make do for the next 18 months until we can all get back in a room together. We all know that that's going to happen anyway. But the opportunity for that meeting, that virtual meeting to be transformational, to really have the kind of lasting impact— I mean, I've read statistics that virtual meetings can produce really remarkable, not just the takeaway in the moment, but the retention of the takeaway for 60 and 90 days. often in more live in-person events and settings, those takeaways can be— can have a shorter shelf life, let's say. So what's the mindset of the client as you see it right now? Where are they in the process? Maybe in the grieving process, to go back to that. Are they, you know, past denial and all that kind of thing? Or— and what are some of those best practices when it comes to producing a virtual meeting at the moment?

Well, I mean, clients have really had a difficult time. I mean, it's been as well as Those of us that serve them. But I think that there is a huge recognition and acceptance now that this is the way to connect, and whether you like it or not. And so again, what's the best way to do it? There's an awareness that it's going to cost some money to do it well. Zoom is very limited in regards to— I mean, what we're doing here, it's great one-on-one, 12 people, but it's hard to embed Video and Zoom. So education is key. We've had— we had to learn about the various platforms. The platforms exist. They're doing great. They're brilliant IT guys. They're not really focused on customer service. It's— the analogy is that you, you know, you retain the platform. It's an empty house. You know, we come in, we furnish it. You know, we hang the paintings, we paint the walls, we do the furniture, we put the people in there, we create the family and the experience. Everything. is always going to be about the experience, whether it's in person or whether it's virtual. There is the ability to have a very intimate experience virtually when you are watching a great keynoter or, you know, whatever it is regarding to concurrent sessions. I think anybody who tells you that virtual networking is great is not telling you the truth. It just stinks. It's really hard to do. It's really hard to network. And of course, for a lot of these trade associations, that's a huge portion of pressing the flesh. And, you know, they're nonprofits. They, for the most part, can only collect dues and registration for revenue. So the ability to take your member out to dinner or lunch, that stuff doesn't, doesn't work. But, you know, boondoggles have been a thing of the past for a really long time in this business, whether it's in person or virtual. But it certainly is nice to go to a great place and play a round of golf and have a great dinner. So how do you create value? for your client in a virtual setting. So part of it is absolutely knowing what you're talking about. And for me, I know enough to be dangerous, okay, about the virtual world. I know everything about, you know, the best keynoters and the best entertainment. And here's the cool thing you can do in between, you know, sessions. And I've learned that I need my partners to help me on a call to explain, you know, kind of those really technical things about what the platform will and won't do, how much it's going to cost for, you know, how many days and sessions per days, and how we're going to come in and help enhance it with content, with graphics, with voice of God, with sponsorship opportunities. Whether it's like when you used to go to the movie theaters and see, you know, they'd flash that quick picture of a Coca-Cola and a popcorn. It was that subliminal advertising. You know, and I always say we can do that with your sponsors. We could have a watermark, we could have some sort of banner in the background that they don't even— that's just consistently there. That might actually be more meaningful than the 2 minutes you give them at the microphone in real time, you know. So it's really important to— We've reorganized in teams so that we can provide value to the client across the board and execute across the board. And everybody's in the know, and because they really need the guidance. And the good news is, I think, that they understand that— they really understand that this is not going to be, you know, $3,000. That depending on the level, what the meeting is going to be and how many days, and it's up to them. I always say keep it really simple, man. Don't do 5 concurrent sessions if you don't have to. Let's, you know, let's keep it simple, keep it short. 2 days, general sessions, concurrent CEO roundtables, whatever you need. The more facets that you add in there per day, the more people you need to run it. And I think that's kind of the big secret is in a virtual world, you need people. You may think this just sort of happens, that it's just magic, but you need people, you know, making sure that camera angle's right, switching the channel, making sure the graphics get flown in. So, I mean, that's very comforting to me that even if you can't see them, they're there and they're important and everybody has a role to play. But, you know, clients, to answer this very long-winded answer, clients have really begun to embrace this and understanding. And even if they've begun to embrace speakers, you know, speakers need to make a living. The margins are so low virtually. So, you know, I recommend to all my speakers, you know, How about your local fee? Speakers, you know, bill in increments of time and travel. So if you're not traveling anywhere and you're local to California and your local fee is this, that seems like it's good and fair and right for that to be your virtual fee, right? And for—

which is really important for speakers to hear because I think a lot of folks were being asked to work for free for a period of months and given opportunities while they were working out their virtual content. We've been delivering virtual trainings for a lot of years, so we were also not terribly uncomfortable being in front of the camera and being able to use breakout rooms and being able to really dive deeply into process and exercise. But I think a lot of folks were working out their content. You know, what's the difference between standing on a stage and what that paradigm is like for them as well as for the audience, and then being more on a level playing field in a camera where you're looking at people, they're looking at you, and you've got the opportunity for— conversation to happen. Right. And it's very, very different. And I think at the beginning, what we were hearing and what we were seeing was that organizations weren't even— there wasn't an established marketplace, a way to sort of value, as you say, time and IP. And people were even just wanting to— I know we wanted to serve at the beginning. We weren't looking to get anything. So we were putting on resilience events and other things just to add value, and we weren't charging for those things. But there is a time And I think the time has passed now where that shift has occurred and speakers do need to reestablish their value. And it's good to hear that part of the way you're framing it is that it's your local. It's the way you would if you were gonna travel down the road 15 minutes by car. That's more the mindset of how you charge for a virtual event today. Did I get that right?

Yeah, and I think it's, you know, I had a kind of a challenging conversation with a With a client last night, a very good client, you know, and they'd asked me to find this, this speaker, which of course I don't ever wait like a second if someone asks me to find somebody. And she was quite remarkable. And she quoted a very low fee. And so I gave them the fee. They had a conversation with her. By the time that they got off the phone, they had negotiated her doing 3 separate 20-minute segments over the course of 2 days. And so, you know, I had to have the very difficult conversation, which I've gotten very good at. And I said, you know, she's going to be great, but I need to let you know that 2 days is 2 days, and 3 segments are 3 segments, and 20 minutes is really tough. Ask any TED speaker, okay, to get an impactful message out there in 20 minutes. Much easier to do a whole day of training, and everybody breaks for lunch, or whether it's virtual. I said, this is a lot of work. It's a lot of time. And you are my client and I love you, but I also have to protect my talent because we have to value her time and her effort and what it's going to cost her to craft 20 impactful minutes over the course of 2 days. And, you know, their response, which I was surprised, it's a big corporation. She goes, well, you know, I assume that, you know, speaker fees are really low. And this woman really quoted low, really quoted low. And one of my conversations with her last night, Because I'd not worked with her before, but I will, is that you need to ask for more. Because it's, number one, you're good, you're worth it. And also, we're going to charge in increments of days. Mm-hmm. You know, a lot of clients want to prerecord something for the certainty, which is fine. And then they want my speaker to come back and do live Q&A. And I said, I am delighted to do that, but there's going to be an upcharge. And, you know, the answer is, well, you know, it's just, you know, they don't have to— no, you know, they've got a tech check, they've got to do that tech run twice, they got to, you know, brush their teeth twice, they got to be prepared twice. It's 2 days. And so that's been challenging in some respects where, I mean, you don't charge double because the fees are so decreased anyway. If somebody is $10,000 for their local fee and then they're asked to come back and do Q&A, I'm going to— I'm going to try to get half of that fee. It's another day. Because, you know, I will often say to clients, I'm not going to do anything unless I feel it is— and this is my favorite, favorite phrase— good and fair and right. And do you think this is good and fair and right? Because I do.

Mm-hmm.

I do. I think it's good and fair and right. I'm going to protect you, but I'm going to protect them too. Because, you know, we are all past the denial phase of this. This is the new normal. This is the new reality. And people need to be paid for their time and, and for their efforts in a fair way.

I'm gonna say amen, sister to that.

Yeah.

You know, it's— we're finding new footing. And I don't want to diminish any aspect of the inquiry because it's— on one hand, it sort of makes common sense that that's the case. And yet we're finding— all of us are just finding new footing. And I think the companies still are not yet All bought in, and nor would that be an easy thing, but that they'd be bought into the new belief system that that virtual event might actually create the KPIs they're looking for or create even better results than they were looking for when it came to bringing people together from kind of all over the country and the world even. So, I wanna pivot just a little bit for the last segment here. Talk about resilience, because part of the reason I wanted to have you on, in addition just to mad love for who you are and what you do, is the fact that you have been a model of resilience, as you said earlier, through multiple tragedies, loss of people really close to you, people that you loved and adored. And resilience, in many ways, people define it often as this ability to get back up. And that's one way to define it. And I want to get your take on resilience. Because I feel like you've been a great leverager, that's a word, leverager of the challenges, the adversity, because you've continued to just move forward and create new chapters in your life, new love in your life, new business opportunities, all these great things. So you model it, forget talking about it, you just model what a resilient life looks like. So who better than you to ask what your definition of it is? And then I've got one other follow-up to that.

You know, it's funny when you said that, the one word that came to mind for me was faith. As a deviant Catholic, I don't mean it in that respect. But I think that— I think you just have to have faith in the sense that once you get through the darkness, that there will be light. And who knows what that new chapter will bring? Like, I never thought I would get married again. Done. You know, I had a great love in my life, remarkably, a great love in my life. And I— my joke was that I was going to become a lesbian because I thought I would be very popular. And I had zero, I mean, zero interest in dating. And, and, you know, much to my surprise, you know, 8 years later, I, I fell in love again and married 2 years ago. And that's been a— who would have thunk? You know, but At the same point, I think the thing that I feel a lot of pride about is, in terms of resilience, is that I have worked very hard to push to live through grief, to understand and live in gratitude for that particular person that's been lost, because they were all people I adore deeply. And I'm really strong right now. There's very little thing, very few things that can knock me off my feet at this point in my life. And so this whole thing is like a walk in the park compared to what could really be happening. And I think that that recognition is something we all have to recognize, no matter how bad it is for you. My mom used to always say, you bring your troubles to the middle of the table with everybody else, and you are grateful to leave with your own.

Hmm.

In comparison. And, you know, for me, I think that the way to always get the emphasis off of what you're feeling in grief is to figure out a way to pay it forward, you know? And that's why I got— personally got involved in so many things like Service Corps and Operation Smile and having songs written from my music community that could be, you know, used for an organization, put on a website. Every time somebody downloads one, It's, you know, $10 goes toward the organization. You know, how, you know, if you just sit in the corner and suck your thumb and, you know, this happened, this happened, this happened. Yeah, it did. It did. It did happen. Recognize it, you know, and live through it and help somebody else out who's really in much worse shape than you are, even if it doesn't feel like that's possible at the time.

Be in service. Service is love in action. That's the way I like to think of it.

Our dear friend Steve Farber said, absolutely. You know, service, you know, really, when you can help somebody else out who, you know, who really needs it, it takes— it helps you in your grieving process, you know. And I think that's what's happening now in business too, is that it feels very rewarding to be able to have a conversation with a team of people that I trust, colleagues, with clients that are in shock, and have let go of 30% of their staff and still need to produce something impactful to keep going, it really feels good to be able to give them information that's helpful and that they can use and that works. But, you know, on a personal level, really, I think that all of us have to live in the moment, live in the now, recognize it because it could be gone tomorrow. That's a great lesson that I've learned and realize that You know, this— I mean, we're all mostly in beautiful homes quarantined. I'm like, wow, this is really tough. I mean, it is tough. It is tough not to be able to have the freedom to go where you want, but it's nothing compared— nothing compared to what most of the world is going through in terms of, you know, not being able to pay their rent, pay for food, or make the decision between—

I really hope you're enjoying this episode of the Change Proof podcast. If you've not yet gone out and gotten your own copy of Change Proof, it's not too late. You can get your copy right now by going to changeproof.com and not only getting the book and all the bonuses there, but getting access to our proprietary resilience assessment tool. It'll just take you 3 minutes to do, and it's something that will really help you to utilize the book even more effectively to create practices and rituals and habits that will increase your mental, emotional, physical, and even spiritual resilience for the long term. Again, go to changeproof.com to get your copy today. There's so much uncertainty. And I think as human beings, we don't deal with uncertainty well. I'm kind of a control— recovering control freak, maybe. But I think we're addicted to knowing. We're addicted to certainty. And so it's more than just a little interested in and even fascinated by how it is that we leverage uncertainty. We've got a book coming out in the spring with McGraw-Hill called Change Proof. Leveraging the power of uncertainty to build long-term success. And again, you're one of those people that I think you've been able to be in that place of uncertainty at various points in your life and emerge with something that is valuable and things that you can use to then not just sustain a life or sustain even business, but to get into momentum again. So my question to you is, what is it about uncertainty that you think is leverageable? Where is there power in uncertainty for you personally or even professionally?

I mean, I think that— I mean, I think everybody hates uncertainty. I mean, it's really hard not to know what's around the corner. I think the only thing that's good about it is that it causes a lot of creativity and a lot of things that can, you know, you just have to problem solve. You just have to. And I think you have to always be prepared for uncertainty. And I think, you know, that sort of lackadaisical attitude that This is the way we've always done it, this is the way it works, and this is the way we're going to do it. That's a death sentence. That's— and that's something that I will give 100% props to Mark French. He used to make me crazy because he would always, the minute we got used to something, he would change it. And I'd say, I hate this, I hate this change. Can we just please be in this one place? This really works. And he'd be like, yep, nope, we're going to change this. And now that's without him. That's what we're doing. You know, our new CEO is Matt Jones. He's awesome. We've worked together for 23, 24 years, and we were all mentored by Mark. And it was like, we eat change for breakfast. And, you know, and, but we hate it, but we're gonna eat it.

But I think you guys don't just make friends with change, you make change your best friend.

If you don't change, you will die. I mean, in anything.

Disruption is the one thing we can count on. You can't count on the timing of it, but you know it's always out there. It's constantly on the horizon. And to self-disrupt is sort of counterintuitive. That's what I'm hearing you say is that part of the culture within leading authorities is this culture of self-disruption, right? Disturbing your own status quo, like shaking the Etch A Sketch, if anybody remembers what that—

Yes, I do. I'm with you on that. Is a part of our culture. And I will tell you, for the first 4 or 5 years, it made me crazy because I came from, you know, I was doing 3 or 4 jobs, singing jazz at night, you know, working with a 40-piece orchestra, booking indie acts on the weekends. And basically I didn't understand this corporate world. But when— but I realized that being agile and being proactive instead of reactive, not, not saying, oh my God, what if this happens? It's just saying this most likely is gonna happen. So what, you know, do you want fries, man? Here's your speaker. Here's, you know, we can also do entertainment. We can also produce that entertainment. We can produce your meeting. There's redundancy. And also we can do any kind of special videos and sponsorships. You know, do you want fries? Here you go. Here's the menu. Who knew?

Pivotable, pivotability, we like to say.

And again, I can't take credit for it. It was always Mark. It was always Mark who said—

What was it about him that— because I got to meet Mark and spend just a little time with him. I feel that was wonderful.

He was an insatiable intellect. Insatiable.

But is that the reason that he was committed to disturbing the status quo? Because it's rare, I think, that you find somebody that embraces— because now we're not talking about tolerating change or managing. So much in the consulting space is about management of change. This is about utilizing change in an affirmative and, what did you say, proactive way, in an assertive way?

It's kind of like if you're doing musical theater, right? There's some personalities that love musical theater. Like, I'm playing this role every night and I'm gonna sing that song the same way every night. I'm gonna do this show for as long as it's on the road. That made me insane, okay? I was bored out of my mind. I mean, I didn't want to sing the song the same way every night. I didn't want to play the same role every night. That was Mark. Mark just couldn't— he was just driven. And so he would see an opportunity, it would excite him, he would challenge himself to see if he could make that happen. And he would be dragging us all behind him kicking and screaming. And actually the industry kicked and screamed too. And then all of a sudden, it became the norm. You know, he would do outrageous things. I mean, he would, you know, he had remarkably crazy ideas. And not all of them were great. Some of them were. And then he would put the talent and the money behind making it happen. You know, he grew up in Turkey. He had— he was extremely well-read. He was a very shy person in person. I like to say that I gave Mark a sense of humor, you know, and I would say to people, okay, no, he just said that to you, but I speak Mark, so let me tell you exactly what he meant. Okay? And I speak Mark. And because he—

Well, what you speak, and this is emerging from this now, Just having a little distance on our conversation, I can see jazz is a big part of this because Mark was a jazz musician in the way that he approached that business. He was. Improvisational. Yeah. And something that's not necessarily linear, and not being afraid to try something that produces a non-resonant or a dissonant note even.

Right.

That offsets all that resonance that would otherwise just bore the shit out of you. Even the same beautiful note constantly becomes monotonous at a certain point. We know that when it comes to speaking, it's the death knell of any speaker to be predictable, to be quite boring, right? Because they are monotonous. So it's interesting that the conversation about music has emerged. It's amazing. And looking at what Mark was really great at. And so it's interesting because that was— you came from jazz, and yet, like you said, This is one of our— one of those ironies of life, embracing that sort of improv way to approach certain aspects of business, maybe not so comfortable, definitely not so comfortable, right?

It certainly wasn't comfortable, and then it became the way we do it. And I'm super grateful to him because it is part of our culture and it did allow us to pivot and it has helped us serve our clients and get closer to our clients and help our clients. And the thing I'm proudest of is that we still have our entire staff. We're not owned by anybody. We're a freestanding agency. We live and we die by the sword. And, uh, but our people are— it's the value of the company. That's it. Otherwise, it's just a bunch of chairs and desks and computers. Right. It's— how does it feel to do business with Tony? How does it feel to do business with Chelsea? How does it feel? Feels a certain way. How does it feel to do business with Rainey? You know, that's my goal, and hopefully be able to offer solutions and execute.

I love your version of jazz, so this is all good stuff. Do you have a ritual? Do you have something that you do on a ritual basis, daily even, every morning, every evening, that represents your—

I cannot, I cannot I have to make my bed in the morning. It's like—

This is how you maintain resilience, is you make your bed every day?

I think there are certain rituals. You know, I think that that is actually important to me. Get up, make your bed before I do anything. You know, certain things.

It's a win. It's a right out of the gate immediate win to do something you don't have to do for one thing. You get no demerits. There's nothing on your permanent record because you didn't make your bed when you're—

It just— the day just doesn't go well. I mean, it's just I'm a little bit OCD. I mean, my husband will get up in the middle of the night and, you know, he'll come back and the bed will be made. So, you know, it's—

That's good to know.

He's former Air Force, so he kind of digs it too. But I think that there are— my ritual is that, or I guess my practice is, I always say to clients, if you email me and call me and you have not heard back from me within 20 minutes, I either didn't get it or I was hit by a car. That's my ritual is responsiveness. If someone emails me at 9 o'clock at night, 10 o'clock at night, I was on last night till midnight with clients because I think that really this is a 24/7 gig. You know, we're lucky in the sense we get to stay home, and— but even so, problems don't just occur between 8 and 5.

No.

And if I don't have staff members that aren't able to respond to clients' needs after 5 o'clock, they're not right for our business. This is, you know, this is show business, man. You know, it is, no matter how you look at it. And it's not 9 to 5. And people need guidance, and especially with these things now, it's 24/7. And so that's— See,

I always thought that was just because you love me. I've said this to my wife, to Rani, numerous times. I said, you know, Rani is so responsive, and we see so many open loops, so many open communication loops in business and in personal things. I don't know if you've noticed the same thing, but people just go dark, they become silent, they don't answer texts, or they don't respond in ways that used to be just sort of common, like a common decency or a professionalism or civility that has disappeared on some level. And for years now, I've just remarked that you are uncommon in that way. And I so appreciate that. Now, as I said, I always thought it's just because you love me. And now it's even better. It's not about little me. It's just who you are with everyone. And I think that that makes, so from my perspective, I feel special because someone who I communicate with, who is busy like I am, still makes the time to respond in a timely way. To me, that's a part of coming back from this in many ways has a lot to do with reevaluating how it is that we treat people, how we show up. And better than before communication is something we just started talking a lot about. What does it look like in a time when people are so living with this great uncertainty. And to me, the great opportunity in uncertainty is leadership. So as you said, this creativity, this is a way to creatively approach the new or the next normal. Leadership has everything to do with how people feel when they're in contact and in relationship with you. And so I'm just reflecting back to you that your leadership is felt. The way I feel it is somebody that cares enough. that cares enough to respond in a meaningful way quickly or in a timeframe that just makes it seem like I'm a priority. So I don't know if people have said that to you before, but that's my experience of you, love, and I'm sure I'm not alone in saying that.

Well, I do love you, but I will always— I just can't not answer anybody. I mean, there are some people I will ignore, but actually, Yeah, I just, I just think it's courteous.

They're not listening to this podcast, so it's okay.

I just think, you know, if you want to be in business, you know, you take care of your people internally, externally, all across the board. And it doesn't cost a lot to answer somebody. It makes me crazy when somebody doesn't answer my email. You know, I'll often just, you know, send an email to a client and then I'll always call them and say, I just want to make sure you've got it. Do you want to walk through it? You know, or are you okay? You know, but I just think it's It's the way business needs to get done. You know, it's, it's courteous.

Yeah, we're moving more personal, not less.

Absolutely.

More intimacy, not less right now. So with that, I just want to thank you for taking the time and for us being able to chat about some of these things. I loved what you said at the beginning about when emotion becomes too great, that's when there's music. And as a music lover, I know a lot of people will really appreciate that sentiment, that there are— when the emotion gets great, what are you doing for yourself in the moment to deal with that, to work through and find a creative opportunity in that emotion? It might be just to sink into something like music, whether it's to take a walk listening to it, or it's to sing in the shower, or sing wherever you sing. But it's a wonderful insight.

Thanks.

Yeah, I have a ritual that was the subject of my own TED Talk about 2 years ago, this ritual about waking. So I always will ask a guest this question, and I'm going to ask it to you, Rainn. Did you wake up today?

Yes.

I mean, that— it sounds like a straightforward question, but we're— I think we're in the process of waking up, and some of us that means more coffee, and for others it means to expand our thinking in some way, to find some new insight. To me, that's a part of what a successful life involves, that each day We wake up just a little bit more, a little more awareness today than yesterday. And that has nothing to do with the pandemic. You can have quite a bit more insight and awareness in times of challenge even than in the status quo times when the wind is in your sail and things seem to be going just perfectly. And yet even in those times, people are quite often unhappy. So waking up, you did that, check. The second piece of this ritual is Is there something to appreciate and be grateful for? Was there something when you woke up this morning that you, that you were grateful for or appreciated consciously that you can recall?

Yeah, every morning I wake up and I count my chickens, and the chickens that I love, and as long as they're all still with me, then I'm good to go that day.

Gratitude. The, the value of gratitude cannot be overstated at this point. The science behind it, everything else, it's just As elixirs go, it's not snake oil. It's the real McCoy. So wake up and be grateful. That's step 2. And then the 3rd piece, which was both beautiful aspect of that TED Talk and one that's been controversial as well, is the words that come out of your mouth, the declarations that we make when we speak. I truly believe that we speak our lives into existence. We speak constantly. We are manifesting through our words. And if nothing else, the words that we speak all day long are recorded subconsciously. We hear them. And if we were to actually have those words replayed to us, I think a lot of us would kind of cringe. It's a question of what do you consciously choose to say and speak into existence? So do you recall the first words that you said this morning? Any idea? And maybe you picked up the phone and you looked at a Facebook post or you saw some headline, you went, oh, shit. Oh, shit. Oh, shit. I used to start my day by saying, oh, shit, when I was a lawyer, a lot, actually.

I think I was actually posting on Facebook and I think you saw it. So it could have

been that. Well, that's what you typed out. But do you remember what you might have said out loud, if anything?

Let's see, Jeff and Zeke, our dog, had left about 5. I think I said, shoot, I have a guy working on the office. I know I talked to myself. I don't recall. I think that I was grateful. Again, for me, it's just every day kind of checking in on nothing. Nothing traumatic has happened. Everybody I love is still breathing. It really is checking my pulse on that every morning. So, and then I just kind of get up and start doing my thing.

So this is beautiful because I want you, if you're willing, tomorrow when you wake up, And we know that when we go to sleep at night, we don't have a contract to wake up. Exactly. It's not a guarantee. So even in that moment when we realize we are waking up, you can conceive that there are people who are taking their last breath at that very same moment. And so there's a lot, as you said, to just be grateful for in that moment. And then if you're inspired to say something out loud, I'd love to know what you say tomorrow morning just as a result of this conversation. Because my 4 words, these 4 little words, I love my life, are, you know, it's just gone on for so many years that those are the words that I begin the day with. And I said in this talk, and I've said to people often, that it doesn't mean I love my life because everything's going my way or things are right with the world or right in every way, because it's so contrary to what is reality. It's I love my life, comma. No matter what.

Yep.

No matter what. So what are the words? What are your words tomorrow? What is the I am statement or the statement out loud that puts the wheels in motion of things that we can't even put to words, that might only be able to be expressed through music, for example?

That's

right. We'll see.

I will email you in the morning.

Oh my God. This will be like a— in the show notes for the podcast, we'll also get that too. What are Rainey's words? All right, listen, we could go on, but love, it's been a pleasure and thank you.

Thank you all very much.

Beautiful. Ciao for now, everybody.

Bye. Ciao, bella.

Thanks for listening, everyone. We hope you now have the tools and greater insights to navigate your own pivot. Help us inspire others by sharing this episode and leaving your comments over at adammarkel.com/podcasts. For more tips, strategies, and support as you consciously pivot, Pivot into a new business and lifestyle you love? Join our Pivot community on Facebook at pivotfb.com.