#207: Practicing Presence: A Top Broadway Actress on Overcoming Fear & Doubt with Sandra Joseph

Hey everybody, it's Adam, and I hope you're having an absolutely beautiful day and that you're making time to check out the latest episode of the Conscious Pivot Podcast, where my guest is none other than Sandra Joseph. She is the longest-running actress on Broadway playing Christine in Phantom of the Opera for more than 10,000 shows. Our conversation is magnificent, mostly because she is magnificent. Thank you. And I hope that you love it. It's a replay. It's something that we aired some time ago and we got such incredible feedback that we decided to reissue it so you could enjoy it as well. So, enjoy and share it with someone else who might enjoy it too.

Welcome to the Conscious Pivot Podcast with Adam Markel. Bridging self-development and business mastery, the Conscious Pivot Podcast is the place to get a 360-degree vision for creating greater impact in both your personal and business life. Adam shares powerful insights, interviews, stories, and actionable advice from entrepreneurship, reinvention, leadership, and money to purpose, spirituality, and relationships. Join bestselling author, international speaker, and entrepreneur Adam Markel for a much-needed dose of energy, heart, and real talk. And now, here's Adam. Hey, everybody.

Hey everybody, it's Adam, and welcome to the Conscious Pivot Podcast. So excited today. Just, I'm excited every day, so I have to say that, but today especially, I woke up with this just wonderful feeling of anticipation for an incredible conversation. Yeah.

I'm assuming that everybody that's either listening or watching this also loves great conversation, especially when other people's conversation translates into some opportunity for transformation for ourselves. So I am thrilled to be with somebody today that has an incredible story, but more than a story, she has a very inspiring life. It's just something that every time I've been in her presence, I felt more conscious. I felt happier. I mean, I'm just trying to be present to what's come up for me in those situations, but Yeah, just joy. I feel joy in in this person's presence, and she's well. You'll get to experience that for yourself. So I am not a you know when it comes to these podcasts, our audience, our our communities come to expect this from me. I don't do introductions anymore. I don't want to because to me they seem canned. They're always kind of like oh here are the great things this person did and la da da da da. And I've been introduced. It's and it's been a joy to be introduced. all over the world to speak and train and share things. And I always start my own— like when I get on the stage, I've always started by saying, you know, it's so great to hear all those wonderful things about myself, but if you ask me who I am, I will say first and foremost, I'm a daddy, I'm a husband, you know, and then I'll talk about my wife. And, you know, the most important things always sort of bubble to the surface, and those things are not about the fact that I practiced law or ran a company or any of that, even though those are important things because they are credibility for sure to have, to just know that the person, you know, in front of you actually has some experience in what it is they're talking about. But for sure, I think the most important things are our life experiences and how it is that we navigate life, you know, in, in a way that is productive for ourselves and for the people that we get to serve. So you are an elegant expression of that, not just physically because you're absolutely beautiful, and Sandra Joseph, who everybody's gonna get to meet in just a second, we'll get to experience you as that elegant being. But more than just how you physically appear and show up, I feel like there's just an ease and a grace and a joy about your presence. And, and that's, that's a product of life experience and also of God too, I believe. So Sandra, thank you so much for being with us today.

Thank you, Adam. That might be my favorite introduction ever. The non-introduction. But I'm so touched by hearing you say that you feel joy and feel more present in my presence. And likewise, I feel connected to everything bigger than us when I'm in your presence, as you're certainly tapped into the spirit world, and it really just opens my heart. So thank you so much for having me. I'm excited for our conversation.

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Would you take a few seconds to bring our folks up to speed on some of your life experience? Both, you can touch on something personal if you want, and also something professional, because you have had some incredible accomplishments that are amazing on, by anybody's definition of amazing. So would you catch us up to speed on some of those things?

Sure.

Thank you.

Well, I grew up in Michigan, in Detroit. I'm a Midwestern girl through and through. Um, but I had, uh, high hopes of singing and acting. That was my great love from the time I was very young. Um, but a very insecure, shy kid full of fear and self-doubt and anxiety. Um, But eventually, long story short, I, I went on to move to New York. And after years of rejection and failure, I landed a role in a Broadway show that changed my life. I played Christine, the female lead in The Phantom of the Opera on Broadway for 10 years and well over 1,000 performances. So— I am in the odd unique position of being the longest running female lead in Broadway's longest running show. So I did that for the majority of my, you know, sort of the splashy professional visible career. And now I'm in the midst of a second career, which is a pivot story I'm sure we'll get to.

Beautiful, beautiful. All right, well, let's, let's do this because, um, having 3 daughters and a son, and our 3 daughters, they were all— they took ballet lessons, they were in dance classes, they were even in pageants, which my wife and I were shocked that we were even involved in that. But our, our daughter Lindsay, um, she, she convinced us, and we were actually having a bit of a joke with our youngest, Eden, last night about this because Lindsay had this knack for when she wanted something, she was very tenacious but clever. And, or just, she didn't, she wasn't sort of forcing things, trying to force things with us, but she would write us letters or she would make, you know, kind of create a list of pros and cons. Wow. And she had a really creative approach to getting us to see things the way she was seeing them and the way she wanted. So, uh, one of those first things was to apply to a performing arts high school.

Oh, wow.

Really? Why do you want to do that? You know, and the parent thinking, oh, you know, she'll, she'll get herself thinking that she'll have a career in that space and, you know, how tough that is kind of thing. But you know what? Um, we were, we were open. Uh, it wasn't our first choice. But then she convinced us in this beautiful way, and sure enough, she got into this really incredible local performing arts high school. And the same thing with the pageant, she convinced us, and then all the, you know, the other 2 girls decided they wanted to do it too, and they won their, you know, their state finals, and we used to go to the nationals. I mean, it was really, really cool. Mm-hmm. I remember, man, it was so— I hate to use the word, but I'll just say it— it was competitive. I mean,

yeah,

yeah. And in this pageant, they couldn't wear makeup, and it was all these beautiful things about their, you know, their ability to, to, uh, to perform a talent and to speak well and, and all these great, uh, things that would help them in their life. But it was competitive, very much so.

Mm-hmm.

I thought to myself, what is it like for, um, young, young men and women who are competing in essence for roles in plays on Broadway or off-Broadway, or they want to be in a, you know, you want to have a successful music career, any of these performing arts. And you hear stories, but I had no experience with it. And then I got to meet you and I heard about your, what I'll call a pivot story. I mean, we all have so many of them, but I think your story is profound. And there may be people not only right now who are, who have that dream or are holding that dream, Or have in the past. And, and I think your story would be really incredible for them to hear some of that. Would you share that pivot story with us?

Sure. Well, I'm touched that you mentioned Lindsay and her fierce knowledge of what she wanted to do and, and the ability to communicate that. I do think for all of us, we have that young person inside of us to this day, that, that voice that was so present, I think, when we were kids, before there were any voices telling us, that's ridiculous, or you can't do that, you know, that, that desire to express something that's inside of us. And I, I had that desire too as a young person, but I lacked the confidence. And that was an ongoing challenge for me in that moving into that competitive world. I was blessed to have parents who supported me, and I do think it's incredibly important to find someone who supports you in whatever it is you're looking to create or to express. My dad encouraged me despite Knowing what the odds were of making it in New York, he encouraged me to go and, and give myself a time limit. So I went to New York with a 5-year plan that I would audition for everything, and if nothing happened, I would move back to Michigan and figure out what the heck to do. At 4 and a half years into this 5-year plan, I was living on a friend's sofa, so basically homeless. I had maxed out all of my credit cards and it was really looking like it was time to call it quits, that it was not going to happen. And I was working every temp job, survival job. I couldn't get hired as a waitress and the, you know, the typical out-of-work actor job because there are so many out-of-work actors in New York that the competition is intense for those jobs. I didn't have the experience, so I was rejected from survival jobs. And rejected I was rejected from auditions over and over, but I was studying and training and coaching, and that's where the majority of my money went, actually. I've always been a huge believer in coaching, and I'm not a coach, so that's not a sales pitch in any way, but I really do believe so wholeheartedly. And you need the support of teachers and mentors and people who can uplevel your skill set. And just be there to say, you've got this, and to boost your confidence. So those are the moments, you know, when we're all looking at all of our efforts and feeling like it's, it's over, it's not going to happen for me, and it's time to face the reality. But you never know what is right around the corner, what the next day or the next moment, the next phone call might be. You know, I always encourage people to remember that, you know, in, in theater we're so used to rejection. We go to audition after audition. It can take 50 or 100 nos before you get one yes, but that one yes can be the pivot, can change everything for you.

Yeah.

So I'm, I'm grateful I stuck it out, and I'm Incredibly fortunate that at that 4 and a half year mark, my agent got me an opportunity to audition for Phantom. And even that was— it did not happen overnight. I blew the first audition. My old fears and nerves got in the way, and I ended up not really expressing myself the way I wanted to. This— then I had a second audition and I blew it again, did not get it, didn't get the leading role because I went the opposite way and ended up being sort of over the top and pushing and trying too hard. And we all have— we all do this, right? We can get in our own way even when you know better. You can screw up sometimes by either your fear comes in or self-doubt the last moment and you don't show up the way you want to.

So I want to just— Yeah. Can I pause for one second? So you had an audition and went out on stage. This was the, this was the thing you've been waiting 4 and a half years for, to audition for this mega amazing, uh, you know, this Broadway play, this Tony Award-winning play, right? This incredible thing. And so it didn't work out and you were disappointed. But then you got a second shot is what I heard you say, in front of the same group of people,

right?

Oh yeah. And so this time, second time out, you overcompensate or whatever you want to call it, right? But you, you know, the pendulum swung in the other direction. And again, you're sort of in your head about it and it doesn't work out. Now, I mean, that's incredibly devastating. I can only imagine the self-talk because you, you said already that your confidence was kind of a little frayed anyway, and now here it is, you've got 2 auditions that didn't work out. I can't imagine how you beat yourself up at that point.

Oh my gosh, the woulda, shoulda, couldas, you know, it was, it was really devastating, and I was so ashamed of myself, embarrassed, disappointed, heartbroken. And the worst part of it was I knew better. I knew that the most important thing in any audition or performance or connection with a person is your presence, is that quality of authenticity and the ability to be real. That's what moves an audience is when you see something real up there. Yes, it's— we know that those are actors playing roles, but— There has to be a ring of truth so that you feel it in your heart. You connect with them because of the believability. And so that's Acting 101. That's the most important thing. And somehow that went right out the window when I was thinking about, I've got to get the part. I have to prove myself. I have to be perfect. You know, trying to dot every i, and it just made me trip over my own two feet. So I was really angry at myself and really depressed for a while.

So we've all— I mean, I think most of us have been there, right? Where you just, for all the effort or all the, even the intention, it's, you know, we just trip over ourselves like you said. And so here it is, you're in that state, we can all kind of feel that energy, and then What do you do from there? Because that's not the end of the story, obviously.

Right. Well, I really had some time to process the loss of, of this dream. And I had to come to terms with the fact— now, after the first audition, I did get a part in the show. I got cast in the chorus, the ensemble, but not the leading role and not on Broadway. I was in the ensemble on the national tour. So sort of Several rungs down the ladder from where my big goal was, but I was in the show when I had the second audition that I, that I blew again. Um, but as I was processing it and realizing, okay, this is over, it's never going to happen for me, I had, I had to let go of it, you know, and I recognized I have to find a way to be okay with the fact that it didn't go the way I hoped. I screwed up. How can I move on from this and live with it? And I, you know, I've been on the spiritual journey and the self-improvement journey for many— I knew enough to know that gratitude was really important. So I started really— Hmm. Getting serious about my My practice of gratitude and writing down in my journal all the things that were going well in my life, all the things I had to be thankful for so I could shift out of this depression. Because here I was still in the show. I mean, I'm a working actor now. At least there's that. And I wanted to— I needed to. embrace where I was because otherwise I think, I don't know, I mean, I just, I would, I didn't enjoy going to the theater anymore. I was depressed about being in the ensemble when a year prior to that I would have been thrilled to be in the ensemble, right?

Yeah.

I think it's easy to lose sight of how far we've come when we're always looking to the next Rung on the ladder.

Repeat that, please.

I think it's easy to lose sight of how far we've come when we're always focused on getting to the next rung on the ladder.

Yeah, I hope everybody takes a moment to breathe, take a deep breath. And, and that's why I asked Sandra to actually repeat that, is because I think that's something that's prevalent. It's, um, I think it's something Many of us do, if not all of us do. And it's certainly something that's a part of a culture, at least in North America. People are addicted on some level to the chase, chasing after things. And it's a— I don't want to divert us here, but it definitely is a— it creates suffering. Yes. It's a part of a struggle that I think we can get addicted to that struggle and to that suffering.

Absolutely. And in some regard, if I'm honest, I think a part of it for me certainly was thinking that if I get there, you know, whatever there is, then it proves in some way that I'm worthy. And the fact of it is, and now on the other side of it, I can say For sure, getting there is no different. We all know this, right? Than here, really, because wherever you go, there you are, as Jon Kabat-Zinn has taught us.

Mm-hmm.

It's the same self that's at the top of the ladder or in the middle or at the bottom, whatever. Up there really doesn't mean anything in some way. Yes, achievement is wonderful. And I have a great story to share because I was able to get to that summit. But what I learned from it ultimately is the journey upward is nothing compared to the journey inward. That's where we find all the things we're actually seeking. That's where we recognize our inherent worth. that has nothing to do with the climb. Now, I'm all for, you know, pushing yourself and achieving your goals and all of those things, but never hanging our self-worth on that. And I was certainly guilty of doing that. I think I believed that the confidence and self-worth I always was seeking would be waiting for me in the star dressing room on Broadway in some regard.

Yeah.

That it would— it was at the end of the road of achievement. And there's no pot of gold there. There might be some other external accolades and financial gain and all of those things, and that's great. But the ultimate work, I think, for most of us is an inside job that has nothing to do with the externals.

Right. It's not waiting in an envelope that they hand up to, uh, to a celebrity on stage to announce the winner of the Tony Award or the Oscar or anything else that you'd put at the top of the list of things that you could be achieving or known for.

That's right. It's not in the corner office. It's not with the letters at the— after your name, the PhD, the whatever it may be.

Or the balance in your account.

Amen.

And I just, the hairs are standing up for me on this one. I was thinking about it just this morning. But yeah, how much, how much, how many of us have spent time equating our worth, our self-worth with our net worth, confusing those things?

Yes.

Yeah.

And addicted to the chase. It's never enough, never enough. And so we can, and we can race through life that way and never See where we are, and that which is how we got to this point in the conversation was to stop for a moment and look back at your life. How often do we do that and say, wow, look at how blessed I am, look how fortunate I've been just to be breathing and to have made it through what I've made it through? Because we're all faced with incredible— Challenges. challenges and suffering throughout our lives. And to still be present and connected to your heart and able to look up and see the sky, I mean, the smallest things can bring us back to the present where we step out of the chase and we get off the treadmill.

Mm-hmm.

And that's where in many ways I think the richest The richest parts of life are found in those moments.

Wow, the pace of change over the last couple of years has been rapid. And if you're a leader, a business owner, an entrepreneur, you know exactly what I'm talking about. Every day it's something different and something new. But the one thing that I've learned in performing at the height of all of those roles has been that we must be resilient. In fact, it's the unsung hero in every success story that you will ever hear about. And it's the reason why my team and I created the resilience assessment that more than 5,000 business leaders across the globe have taken. And all you have to do to get your own free resilient leader assessment is go to resiliencerank.com. It takes less than 3 minutes, and it's our gift to you for being the leader that you already are. Other free resources and tools will accompany your score instantly. So go to resiliencerank.com and find out just how resilient you are.

I think I freaked an audience out. Well, I temporarily might have freaked out an audience the other day because I went from Hawaii where we were with our son Max for his rugby tournament. And Randy and I were there, and then she went home to San Diego with Max, and I went to San Francisco for a speaking engagement.

Mm-hmm.

A sales conference, okay? Sales conference. And the first 5 minutes that I was on, and I was only given sort of 45 minutes, these were TED Talk length kind of things, and I got a longer period, which was great. But I started the group off breathing. Just to breathe together.

That's so powerful.

Oh yeah, except, except it was, it was a bit, you know, um, it was out of place at the, at the, at the moment. Uh, and I still, um, I still marvel at how quickly, even in a context that is not about personal growth or development or Presence practice.

Mm-hmm.

Even in a business group like that, how quickly people will drop in to what is real simply by what you just, you know, expressed, which is that, that just to breathe. I have this mantra lately that I've adopted through a reading of a book called The Presence Process, Michael Brown. I recommend it. It's spectacular. book. And so the mantra is, I am here now in this. I am here now in this. And it coordinates with breathing. So it's like breathing in, I. Breathing out, am. Breathing here. Breathing out, now. Breathing in, in. Breathing out, this. Mm-hmm. And just to, like you said, Fully embody this moment, embrace this moment. I mean, if this— I, you know, to give any— I mean, to share of those intimate moments where we're most vulnerable and most insecure, where a pivot is what's there, right there, there's an inflection point where our life gets the opportunity to change to evolve, to embrace that.

Yeah.

In the midst of those other things that are also coursing through us, along with the cortisol, the fear, the doubt, you know, the self-loathing, the shame, all of it that is sometimes present at reflection moments. So powerful. And, um, and it is, it's really living. I mean, it's It's rich soil in those moments, right?

That's all there is. Yes, that's it. That's it. And we're in a culture, like you said, that's addicted to doing and busyness and chasing, getting to the next moment, the next moment. And if we're not mindful, we— if we miss this moment, That then we miss life. We actually miss out on our own life. And what's the point of any of the rest of it if we're not actually inhabiting our life?

Yeah, exactly. Like, race— you said it earlier— racing through life. Could there be anything more counterintuitive and ironic on some level? than racing through life. Like, as you said, in different words, we take ourselves with us, you know, like it or not, we take ourselves with us wherever we go. So, you know, where are you? Where are we all racing to?

Exactly. There's nowhere to go, ultimately. It sounds contradictory, but it's actually just the paradox of, yes, We all want to, and I encourage all of us to keep blossoming and achieving and going for your goals and all of those wonderful things. And at the same time, recognizing there's ultimately only here. There's nowhere that's there. There's only ever here.

Yeah.

And wherever you go, there you are. Jon Kabat-Zinn's wonderful title of his book. Wherever you go, there you are.

Earlier you spoke about something that you call the practice. So it's a perfect opportunity because in the work that we, that we're, we love doing these days, and we're so committed to this pivot practice and the idea that we're all pivoting, we're all changing, evolving, growing, innovating, or we die. I mean, we're either growing or we're dying. We're iterating, the next version of ourselves, the, you know, V2.1, 2.2, 2.3. If we're not doing that, then we stagnate, and stagnation is, is death. Right. So we're called to express that in as many ways as, as we can find that are— that really— that will resonate with people. Because, you know, sometimes you need to hear things again and again and again, and sometimes hear it in very different ways before we go, oh, I get it now. I get, I get what Sandra's talking about. And so while you were processing your disappointment with gratitude practice, embracing where you were, that seemed like your practice, and I would say even your ritual at the time.

Mm-hmm.

To move yourself past the point of self-loathing or pity or self, you know, feeling sorry about the squandered opportunity or any of that, right? So I would So, I'd love for you to— if there's anything more you want to share about that practice or practices that you even use today, and then of course, we're going to fill in the punchline because I'd probably get hate mail if people didn't at least hear how it was that you went from that place to the point where you got to show up again and show up, I assume, just a bit differently than you had before. Yeah. And, and the pivot entered its, its next phase.

Yes, I'm so glad you asked about the practices because that, that practice of gratitude journaling that I had been doing for a long time but especially helped me through that disappointment and, and self-criticism and heartbreak, I am super passionate about that a continual gratitude practice, it's actually crucial for me because I am someone who by nature leans into despair, to be quite honest. I'm an empath, I'm very sensitive, I see the suffering in the world and it— I can be swept under by By the suffering and sadness and tragedies of life. So I'm one of those people who has to be very careful about the news I take in and protect my sensitivity, really. And gratitude practice is incredibly helpful to me for that. And I do it morning and night. I need it. So I start the morning With— I have a particular journal that I use. That's a— I think it's a positive focus journal. And it has— it's just a whole journal full of the same 5 pages, 5 questions. The one I use is written by a woman named Sandy Selby, S-E-L-B-Y. I'm sure you can get it on Amazon. But it's 5 questions that set the tone for your day. And that's what I start with first thing in the morning, writing down what I'm grateful for. There's a question about celebrating your successes and the successes of others, which I love, just sort of having a moment to focus on the people you love and what's— tomorrow, if I'm thinking about our conversation, I might write down Adam's Pivot Podcast and what you're doing in the world and celebrating that success and like that fills my heart with something positive that's happening in the world, in someone's life. You know, we talk a lot about schadenfreude, you know, feeling good about someone's misfortune. But there's also, there's a word for it, which I have to look up. I don't remember. Do you happen to know? There's a word for celebrating, actually taking joy in another person's joy.

Hmm.

So I start my day with that. And I close my day, the last thing I do before I go to bed is write down however many things come to mind that I'm grateful for about that day. So the gratitude practice is huge for me. I also really love the Institute of HeartMath meditation. I don't know if you're familiar with that, but there's a— it's sort of a biofeedback thing about getting your heart into coherence. And I won't explain it well. Anyone who's interested can look up Dutt of HeartMath. And they have a little ear clip thing. There's an app called Inner Balance.

Hmm.

And I meditate with this little ear clip that monitors my heart rate. And I sit outside whenever possible and just look up at the sky and look at the trees and get my heart in a coherent state. So I think the opportunity to connect with our hearts and the opportunity to feel gratitude, these are life-giving practices. Mm-hmm. Because life has a lot of negative charge, a lot of suffering, difficulty, challenges that we're all experiencing throughout our lives. And these practices that can tune us into the frequency of the heart and what is actually beautiful and good and wholesome and exciting about life, these practices for me are sustaining and absolutely essential.

Yeah. You mentioned something too earlier, which was letting go. And I didn't want to interrupt you at the time. And I was thinking, geez, yeah, attachment is a word we haven't— we haven't used that word yet. But how we can be attached to something. And so it's that— it is that paradox that you spoke about where it's the wanting something, the desire, the dream, right? The dream that's in your heart for a reason, right? language doesn't have to be yours or anyone else's. My language is that God put that dream in our hearts. Like, I'm not saying it in a religious context, but in a highly, you know, in a way that is so purpose-driven. I know that we were born, every one of us, for a really important purpose. So it's no accident. It's not random. Nobody is an accident. There's nothing that's anything other than what's divinely— Designed. And so, to have that in your heart, you know, we don't want to reject or deny that, our dream or our desire, our goals. We want to have them. And yet, the paradox is not in holding on so tightly to what we think. And I think it's thinking really that makes it so. We're thinking it's supposed to be a red Cadillac or a red, you know, Rolls-Royce or whatever, right? We think that's the form it should take. That's the dream. Like, it should be, I'm a Broadway actress, or it should be whatever you fill in the blank for yourself. Look that way, when it's really impossible for us to know the divine, the true divine purpose, other than that we want— this is, this is what we're called to do. We're called to serve in this way. So you were serving in the choir. Yeah. You were singing. Your voice was being heard. It wasn't going to waste. You weren't, you know, waiting tables or driving a cab or doing some other thing where you'd have to figure out, maybe I can sing in the diner. You know, maybe I can sing to people while I'm driving them around town, right? This was not that far afield. You were in a show and you were in fact singing and your voice was being heard. And you somehow were also in your own practice, had let go of the attachment to it having to look a certain way or be a certain way. And I think something may have shifted just in that short timeframe where you were able to serve and not be so disappointed that it didn't look the way you wanted or thought that it ought to look. And so, take us back to that time where These practices were supporting you, so you were grateful and you were present and you're processing consciously what was going on in your experience, and you were even letting go on some level, which is never easy. That's, you know, no matter what the Sedona Method says. Yes, it's easy, and yes, it's hard.

Exactly.

Yeah.

Yeah, I was really heartbroken. And disappointed and all those things. But the gratitude— this is the magic of gratitude. It does lead you to eventually through the door, I think, of surrender. And I did feel myself that— yeah, you just took a nice deep breath. That's what it— that's where gratitude brings you to, I find. And I did feel a sense of, if this is as far as I ever get, if, if I never play the leading role, if I never accomplish another goal, if I never lose another pound or gain another award or accolade or whatever it is, you know, can I be okay? With exactly who I am right now and what I have right now? And I got to a yes with that. And that's an ongoing practice that I, to this day, if nothing were to change, then we can practice this moment by moment. Whatever is up for us right now, can I lovingly accept Whatever it is right now. And it— yes, it's not easy for sure. You know, it's a process. But when we can drop into that, that place of surrender and letting go of our attachment to what we think life should be or who we should be, then there's a release, there's a surrender, there's a quality of openness that I find Puts us in that flow where our energy is different, things— we show up differently, life looks different when we're in that space. And I did, I did get to a place of surrender and gratitude before that final audition. They called me a 3rd time and said they still hadn't found—

Are you kidding me? Yeah, well, I was— that

That's actually not even that many. I know people who auditioned 12, 15 times before they got cast in a role. And I think that's important to remember too, how many of us give up too soon when we're pursuing something. You think it's never going to happen. You know, we love to use those words like never, you know, it's over. Well, you never know what's right around the corner. So they gave me another shot. And in that third audition, I think in large part because I didn't walk in there with the same kind of clinging, desperate, I've got to get this part energy, I was in that space of flow. I had more ease with it. Yes, I was still nervous. Yes, I still really wanted the part, but I really did. Try to walk into it in a space of, you know, it's a biblical phrase, but not my will, but thy will be done. Like, whatever that means to you. And may this play out in the— for the highest good of all concerned.

Yeah, it was surrender, right?

The surrender.

But not surrender in resignation.

Exactly. Oh, that's huge. Yes. Yes. Still really setting intention and praying and hoping and all of it and doing the work, but also having a sense of trust and faith that whatever, however this goes, I will be okay. It will be okay. And may this play out for the highest good for all concerned. And if that means the role goes to somebody else, and that's their karma, and that's their destiny, and it's my journey to go in a different direction, I will accept that. And I will be— I know that I will be okay. So that, I think, is huge. And it allowed me to walk in and just bring an open heart, which— and be much more present and much more authentic, actually, because I wasn't trying to prove something. I wasn't trying to grasp, you know, in Tibetan there's a word, wangtong, that actually means authentic presence. And it also translates to field of power.

Hmm.

And the Tibetan teacher Chogyam Trungpa said, the cause or the virtue that brings about authentic presence is emptying out and letting go. You have to be without clinging. And I think that was a huge part of what made me ultimately give the best audition of the 3, because I wasn't walking in in the same clinging, trying to prove myself, trying to make a certain outcome happen. And I— it actually allowed me to be in, in a space of more ease in, in that final performance. So that's how I ultimately got the part. After all that gratitude and surrender. And that does not mean— I always Try to make it clear, I'm not suggesting that all we need to do is let go and surrender and be grateful and then we're going to get what we want. It's not a magic formula for making a particular outcome happen. It doesn't work that way. But it is, I believe, a magic formula for getting what we ultimately really long for, which is a sense of Grace and ease and, and presence.

Yes, that's what I was gonna say, authentic presence.

Yeah,

because you being emptied of your attachment and of your clinginess or your, your worthiness issues or any of the stuff that we bring, you know, all of our kind of broken parts to the table To be emptied of that, to let go of it, to release it, even for a moment. We are truly ourselves in that moment, and that is ours to keep.

Absolutely. That's it. And that is ultimately far more important than whether or not we get what we want. We're ours to keep inhabiting that space of truthfulness, aliveness, oneness, presence. That is ultimately the whole gig.

That's the whole gig.

That's the whole gig, whether or not— and I'm so grateful truly that I got the part in the end and that I have this story to tell that ends. You know, we might not be sitting here. I might not have the opportunity to share. in this way if I didn't get that prize at the end. But truly, the much bigger prize is that whether or not I had gotten the stupid part, I tasted a moment of authentic presence.

Hmm.

And that is, like I said, that's the real goal. That's what we really want. That's why we do all the things we do, is to inhabit our aliveness. Not to get the pot of gold at the end of the journey. What we really want, I believe, is to be completely who we are and to be completely present. That's when we really are in the flow of life, when we know what it means to be alive and to be who we're here to be 100%. When we taste those moments, that's the whole gig.

I really hope you're enjoying this episode of the Change Proof Podcast. If you've not yet gone out and gotten your own copy of Change Proof, it's not too late. You can get your copy right now by going to changeproof.com and not only getting the book and all the bonuses there, but getting access to our proprietary resilience assessment tool. It'll just take you 3 minutes to do, and it's something that will really help you to utilize the book even more effectively to create practices and rituals and habits that will increase your mental, emotional, physical, and even spiritual resilience for the long term. Again, go to changeproof.com/resilience.

What's really incredible about that is that when we are seen and heard in those moments, which we are at times, I mean, that's the other thing is that you, you got to that place that we've just described that could have easily be a state presence when we're in our backyard or we're at a— I mean, in any, any conceivable place. But you happen to be standing on the stage in the— was it the Winter Garden or what was the theater that you were in?

The Majestic.

Majestic, sorry, right? So this classic theater is probably built in the '20s or something, who knows, right? I mean, amazing theater. And you're on a stage in front of these other, other folks And, and we know the context already is that you kind of, you know, we're in there 2 times already, and then you show up as you. Like, you show up as with your authentic presence, and you're seen in that moment. And that, I think, is what's incredible as a plussing of that moment for yourself. Um, is the fact that others were witness, and that's why they hired you.

Mm-hmm.

That's why they hired you. So that's the point where you go, I can— you know, there's, there's, there's an opportunity to, um, still stoke the coals of that dream when, when it's the— it's this This harmony between the being okay no matter what and the idea that you'll still put yourself out there to be seen.

That's— yes, absolutely. That's— it's giving me chills because that's such a beautiful point that you make, that when we are allowing ourselves to be seen in that way, Then people connect with us. They resonate. There's a resonance. And this is— and every single person has a gift that brings them alive in their own authentic presence. When we are able to drop the mask and let ourselves be seen in that vulnerable, open, truly who we are place, it's like The veil is removed. We see the essence that's there. We see, we feel the heart. We feel that we drop into that place where everything touches everything else. And this is what I think the bigger message is of The Phantom of the Opera, really. I was

just thinking that. Oh

my God.

It is.

You know, it's the most successful show of all time. It's the most lucrative entertainment enterprise ever. There's got to be a reason that that story resonates with people all over the world. And for me, what it really is, is there is something to that mask that it's, it's not a subtle metaphor. You know, we all know what it is to feel that we need to cover up some part of ourselves. And what we really crave is To drop the mask with each other and to see that I am you and you are me and there's no separation here, really. Thomas Merton, the beautiful poet Thomas Merton, said, if we could really see what's true— and I'm paraphrasing that part— but he said, I suppose the big problem would be we would fall down and worship each other. Oh my goodness. We would fall down and worship each other. That's, that's what resonates on stage in a performance, that authentic presence. In a conversation, as I'm feeling with you right now, like when we enter that space where there's— where everything touches everything else, then I, I think we're getting closer To life and, and to what, what it is to be here. Yeah.

Thank you.

Thank you. Thank you.

What a blessing.

Thank you.

Those listening, those watching, what a beautiful opportunity to just breathe. I think in radio, dead air time is never something they try to create, but I'm glad we created a live time to just breathe.

Yeah. Thank you.

Have a blessed, incredible blessed now. I was gonna say day, rest of day, but now. Hey everyone, thanks again for listening. I hope you'll share this podcast and comment on it at my blog at adammarkel.com. Markel.com/blog. I'd love to hear your comments, your questions, and topics of interest for upcoming podcasts. And don't forget to subscribe to the channel and follow us on social media if you haven't already. Ciao for now.