#222: Teaching Our Servicemen Courage And Resiliency With Captain Daniel Lim

Oh, Daniel, please.

Yeah? Okay. Well—

Yes, please. Thanks for having me, Adam. Yeah, thanks for having me. Uh, it's an honor and a privilege to be here. And you talked about happiness. It's, uh, I'm happy to be alive and to be living in the moment and to be on a podcast to share some of my experiences and hopefully impact the audience in a positive

Resilience. It's the unsung hero in every success story that you will ever hear about. And in times of massive change and disruption, the kind of rapid change that we're all experiencing as leaders, as business owners, as entrepreneurs, we have to learn how to not only increase our own resilience, but that of our teams. So right now, we have a powerful opportunity for you to find out just how resilient you are. Some years ago, my team and I created the resilience assessment that more than 5 5,000 business leaders across the globe have taken, and all you have to do to get your own free resilience leader assessment is go to resiliencerank.com. It takes less than 3 minutes, and it's our gift to you for being the leader that you already are. Other free resources and tools will accompany your score instantly. So go to resiliencerank.com and find out just how resilient you are. I think that's already settled. As soon as you said what you did, I just found myself feeling your heart. And I think that's in leadership. Well, let me ask this question instead of make a statement out of it. How important do you think in leadership and, and, you know, in the leadership roles that you've been in and, and the ones that you've witnessed, how important is it that the leader has, has a heart, that they are, you know, engaging their heart that you can feel their heart as part of that leadership role?

Yeah, 100%. I think leadership, a lot of people have a misconception that leadership comes from officership, but leadership comes from every level of organization and every level of rank within the Marine Corps. So it could be a brand new Marine checking into the unit to the most senior ranking Marine officer in the Marine Corps. I think leadership is personified And embodied throughout our transformational experience. So it's very important.

Yeah. And I think people think that if they do show their heart or they express themselves in a heart-centered way, that it somehow feels like weakness or vulnerability and that doesn't kind of match up to the role. Do you feel like that's the case sometimes?

Yeah, I think the Marine Corps in general is an elite warfighting organization and we take a lot of pride in, in what we do. And, you know, sometimes in organizations, seeking help can be construed or misconstrued as, as a sign of weakness, but we try to terminate that and eliminate that culture. And one of my favorite quotes is, the culture of an organization is defined by the collective behavior of its leaders, right? It's how we behave, it's how we act, it's how we interact with one another. and care for one another, that defines the culture. And I think that's what we are striving for in my organization.

That's interesting. So the culture is defined— I want to rephrase or paraphrase this back, see if I got it— that the culture of an organization is defined by the collective behavior of its leaders.

Correct.

I get that right?

Yes.

Right. And, and so The experience of those that are following those leaders. I think what you're saying is that those leaders are models in many ways, that their behavior is what is the model for what's being required or the standards that are expected. Is that correct?

Yeah, absolutely. And something that I realized at a personal level is behind every mission accomplishment and each lionized leader were subordinates who worked tirelessly and, you know, risked lives to see the collective vision come to life. And I think I made it my mission to care for the welfare of those Marines and sailors. And it's not just me, but it's leaders throughout the organizations who's making the positive impact for those around them, not only sustaining their transformation development, but also returning quality citizens, I think, imbued with the highest ideals of our institutional core values of honor, courage, and commitment. And that commitment is not only to the institution, but also to ourselves and to the mission and to serve something bigger than ourselves. So I think it's ubiquitous. I think that spirit is ubiquitous throughout the organization that I serve in.

Yes, it's interesting because the word permission sort of comes up for me. This, this idea of, do you have permission To be real, to be transparent about actually what's going on. And I'm not looking to sort of find the first domino, although I'll admit I'm very curious about how it is that, you know, when you see so many people as a percentage coming out of military service that have ongoing challenges, and, you know, more than just the physical things that sometimes people get hurt, You know, we're talking about military service, and there's wars and there are conflicts all over the globe that our servicemen and women are sent to go and make a positive difference in some place. So yeah, there's physical injuries that come into play, but there's also sort of emotional and mental challenges that are attendant to that service as well. So my question is really one of If the leaders are the ones setting, setting the, the culture by their own behavior, do you see that leaders at the highest ranks are themselves transparent about their challenges in, in dealing with what they've seen and what they've experienced? Is that more becoming the trend in the Marine Corps or elsewhere, do you think?

I think, Adam, I could only speak on my personal experience, and, and as a military officer I have developed a lasting bond with Marines, sailors, and their supportive families who are dedicated to the causes bigger than themselves, leaders both in public and private spheres who risk their security for the promise of making the nation and the world a better place. And the Marine Corps has, statistics alone, experienced moderate improvements in death by suicide and attempts. However, the number of suicidal ideations is at a steady increase. And for me, and I think for all leaders across the organization, one death by suicide is one too many. And my goal is to invite leaders like yourselves from diverse industries, functions, and provide opportunity to share their successful resiliency stories, increasing awareness and promoting resources. So it's not just the leaders within the organizations who are transparent and willing to help, willing to provide resources, but it's also Using a multifaceted approach of bringing in experts from outside the organization to be able to share their part of success stories and how their resiliency stories may impact us positively as an organization. So I think it's both ways.

It is. And it's really a delicate thing when you think about it, because there's a— to be strong, I mean, we could spend hours just defining what strength looks like, right? I mean, I've got a daughter that just had a baby. I mean, there's nothing that could define strength any more viscerally than, than a woman giving birth. I mean, this is— and then of course being a mother, it only just starts with birth, right? But this idea of being strong and at the same time also having the capacity to, to be vulnerable, to be transparent about where you're coming from. So if you're in a bad place, if you're entertaining thoughts of whatever it is, whether it's suicide or just, you know, that you're angry Or you're sad or other things that are going on. It's like, how is it that you, you can both be strong and, and also be vulnerable at the same time? That's not an easy— uh, I won't call it a balance, but let's say to harmonize those 2 things that seemingly are irreconcilable or opposite even. That's an interesting task. Do you— so my question to you is, do you feel like that's on the radar At this point within your branch of the military?

Yeah, let me share some of the programs that I've implemented, and hopefully that can shed light, some light into answering your question. So the Marine Corps Suicide Prevention Program envisions a strong and resilient, resilient Corps in which, you know, no Marine is left behind. And nested under the institutional mission and vision, my program is designed to supplement well-established policies and guidelines. Furthermore, it provides personnel with the immediate action and decision-making tools, including the process for identification, referral, access to treatment, and follow-up procedures for service members at risk of suicide. But most importantly, going back to some of the things that we discussed earlier, Adam, I emphasize the importance of leadership for early identification and intervention for stressors that detract from personal and unit readiness. So we use tools such as the Command Individual Risk and Resiliency Assessment System, enabling Marine Corps leaders to make informed and timely decisions for force preservation based on risk assessment. We also have a Force Preservation Council that, you know, meets at least once a month to synchronize and share ways to provide resources to the command for the Marines at the individual level. And finally, incorporating a multidisciplinary approach comprised of, you know, experts from different specialties. For example, from the chaplain who's providing spiritual support to licensed counselors, medical professionals to behavioral specialists. I mean, the list goes on. And the end state is to provide tailored resources for our Marines and sailors, creating a robust and safe environment, you know, that optimizes effectiveness and mission readiness.

I'm curious, what was it that motivated you to join the Marines in the first place? And I'd love to— since this is called The Conscious Pivot, this show is about people's pivots in life, sometimes ones that we control and sometimes ones that just happen. I'd love to get a sense of both the entry point to the Marine Corps, as well as some of those pivot points in your life.

Yeah. I think you could find pivot moments throughout my journey. As a first-generation Korean American, I had a strong sense of justice and duty to give back to the country that, you know, allowed my family to make it our home. By the prospect of knocking down doors and, you know, bringing justice to the enemies of freedom and protecting the American values, I went to the Naval Academy. But during my final year, when I was volunteering at a local church, I started to consider my motivations, and through reflection, As time progressed, I realized that life that emulates unconditional love and gratitude, not justice, was my calling. And this is where you can kind of perhaps see how I successfully reinvented areas of my personal life. And then it goes back to what we talked about previously, right? Like behind every mission accomplishment and each line as leader were subordinates who worked tirelessly and, you know, sometimes risk lives to see the collective vision come to life. And I think it's at that point I made it my mission to care for the welfare of those Marines and sailors and the families. So I believe, you know, recognizing and valuing the people at the heart of the organization, whether in the military or in my local communities, have helped me become a better man and a leader. So

it's, uh, yeah, I just pausing here from my For my own thoughts to catch up with what I'm feeling, which is this. I didn't expect that our conversation would talk about unconditional love, as an example. There may be people who are listening to this or watching this and are also sort of just going, wow, am I listening to somebody who's delivering a talk about love to an audience of people that are there for that message? Or am I listening to somebody who's in a leadership role within a military organization that's not— You know, often contextualized around, around love. So it's just so beautiful to hear that. I mean, it's, uh, because again, I think we so often are feeling, or, or we are even programmed to, to feel that these things are mutually exclusive, that they're, they're different. You know, it's one silo for one thing and it's another silo for something else. And you're talking about more of an integration of those 2 things. Am I getting close to how you feel about it?

Yeah, 100%, Adam. I think it's not silos of excellence. I think they coexist and it's your ability to make sure that those 2 things are symbiotic and helping you be more resilient.

Exactly. So I'd love to just sort of get a sense of, again, how it is that This concept of resilience, I always ask people on this show to define it. So I'm going to ask you for your own personal definition of it, and we'll go from there.

Yeah. So how do I define resiliency? So it's 2 parts. Personally, I think it's the ability to adapt to circumstances and to overcome adversities. And I witnessed it firsthand personified by my parents. So from the devastation of Asian financial crisis of 1997, you know, to leaving everything behind at age 37 and immigrating to the States with, you know, $400 in his pocket, to assimilating to the hardships of immigrant life, overcoming language barriers and cultural barriers, uh, to sacrificing immensely to establish a foundation so the next generation, so that I can fulfill the American dream in the land of opportunity. That's one way that You know, I saw firsthand resiliency was personified through the example of my parents. And I also had to adapt and overcome adversities on my own ways, immigrating, learning a new language, you know, meeting new friends, attending the United States Naval Academy, which was a transformational experience in and of itself, graduating as a Marine officer and soaring through the ranks as a leader, and coping with not only my burdens, but burdens of leadership that accompanies a certain level of leadership. And Sun Tzu in The Art of War, one of my favorite quotes is, if you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of 100 battles. I think this adage is applicable not only in warfare, but also in how we cope with enemies of resiliency that surrounds us on a day-to-day, you know, daily lives. And professionally, as a leader, I think Resiliency is the X factor that will either make or break the individual at the intersection of life and death situation.

Hmm.

And I think that's how important resiliency is. And we try to bring that spirit back to the program that I piloted in my current organization to really eliminate the negative stigma and promote awareness and, provide resources to service members and their families.

What do you think the negative stigma is, or what's been your experience of what that is?

I think it's the misconception of what strength means, right?

Well, we talked about what we started to talk about earlier.

Right, right. And it's the ability to really understand yourself, and it's part of life. And I think everybody faces, you know, certain situations But we learned to cope with those situations in both negative and positive ways. And through those experiences, we become more resilient as a result. And when you look at, you know, the Marine Corps population in general, it's very young, right? People who are graduating from college or even high school joining, and they're experiencing this transformational development. And life is tough. And, you know, the men and women in service learn to cope with not only the resiliency that comes from mission accomplishment, but also their personal growth as they're developing into a leader in our world. So—

Wow. The pace of change over the last couple of years has been rapid. And if you're a leader, a business owner, an entrepreneur, you know exactly what I'm talking about. Every day it's something different and something new. But the one thing that I've learned in performing at the height of all of those roles has been that we must be resilient. In fact, it's the unsung hero in every success story that you will ever hear about. And it's the reason why my team and I created the resilience assessment that more than 5,000 business leaders across the globe have taken. And all you have to do to get your own free resilient leader assessment is go to resiliencerank.com. It takes less than 3 minutes, and it's our gift to you for being the leader that you already are. Other free resources and tools will accompany your score instantly. So go to resiliencerank.com and find out just how resilient you are. Indeed. You said something earlier I want to come back to, which is you talked about the enemies of resiliency. And I'd love to get a sense of— not an exhaustive list, but What are the enemies of resiliency? Or some of them, let's say. Yeah.

I think before you sleep, Adam, you reflect on your day and just spend 10 minutes of your time. And I know in your book Pivot, you talk about expressing gratitude for 2 to 3 things that you experienced during the day. But I think if you spend some time thinking about your day, you will come up with the enemies of resiliency that you faced On that day. So I think it's very difficult to define what the enemies of resiliency is because I think everybody lives a different lifestyle and everyone experiences things differently. So their enemies of resiliency can be different. So it's understanding yourself and coping with some of those uncertainties that you may face during that day. I think that's how I define enemies of resiliency.

Yes. I mean, I feel Very closely aligned with how you just— with the way you just expressed it. So I'm sort of doing a little internal battle right now on this, because I think it's also important, at least from the standpoint of resilience, when I'm speaking about it to organizations and leaders, that we can look for certain things. Because when we can see those things, when we can identify them, while that's not the only way that they manifest, It's sometimes easier for a leader to then be able to say, ah, there's a sign of depletion here. There's a sign of exhaustion. There's a sign of burnout. And so, you know, to me, recovery is so vital to how I define resilience. And this idea that almost like, you know, the old expression that an ounce of prevention's worth a pound of cure. I've been saying just recently that an ounce of recovery is worth a pound of resilience. And that recovery is, I guess, my question for you. I'd love to know with everything that you've got going on in your world, how is it that you are routinely or even ritually creating recovery zones for yourself? What does that look like in your life?

For me personally, it's a habit, right? So it's the habit that I create. It's a routine that I have. So when I wake up, I go straight into meditation. I drink a glass of water and I meditate. Don't ask me which YouTube videos I watch as I'm meditating, but it's actually in Korean and they do a phenomenal job. It's about 5 to 10 minutes each morning and I meditate and I try to not think about work or what's ahead of me, but try to think about bringing peace in my body. And I do a quiet time where I read the Bible and I kind of You know, go back to my, my values rooted in Christian values. I think that kind of helps me, you know, ignite my fuel to, to start the day. And throughout the day, I think, you know, as cliché as this may sound, it's the Marines and the sailors that I interact with on a day-to-day basis. So, you know, I don't look at it as a job. I don't look at it as a task. I don't look at it as a mission to care for the Marines. It's, it's part of me. It's part of who I am. And I think I don't look at it as a burden of leadership, but rather, what can I do to ensure that their lives are better today? So it's the positive thinking and positive reinforcement in the mind, body, and spirit, I think, that gets me going. And at the end of the day, I mean, you mentioned it perfectly in your book Pivot. Think about 2 to 3 things that you are thankful for. And I think I find more than 2 to 3 things that I'm thankful for every day. I'm alive, I'm healthy, I'm living. I was able to contribute to the community and something greater than myself. So I think it's the unconditional love and also the gratitude that gets me recovered and gets me going.

Yeah. You and I start our days in a very similar way. The glass of water, sitting to meditate, Reading the Bible. I sometimes will read the Bible or just randomly pick something there, or as is often the case, I have a book of daily readings that are about other things, but they're usually tied to some statement or some story from Old or New Testament. And it's very grounding. And I shared this with folks before, I'll quickly mention it now, is I have a code of conduct. Which is all about how I want to experience myself throughout the day. We set out every day. If we're lucky, we wake up, we get to start a new day. We're on our path. I think there's a lot of folks that are just allowing the day to sort of be in control. I'm not so much of a control freak as I used to be when I was a lawyer. I guess maybe still am a bit, but I decided some years ago, about 12 years ago, that if I wanted to have a certain feeling about my life that I could engineer that, or at least plan for it. And if I was going to do that, when would be the time to do it? Would I do it at noon? Would I do it at 3 o'clock in the afternoon when I'm out of patience and I'm ready, just ready to lose it? When I was a lawyer, I would lose it.

Right.

3, 4 o'clock, I'd get angry. I'd start writing nasty letters to people. And I mean, it was a good outlet for my anger back then. Now I just stomp my feet and cry like a baby. But But if I start my day and say, what I want to experience today is the following, then I become the conscious creator of that experience, as opposed to just letting life dictate what happens or how I react to it. Because I think life is a reflex of mental states. That grounding at the beginning of the day, I think if there's anything I could ever suggest to anybody to do on a routine basis, ritual basis, it would be what you described. So my question to you then, after that long ramble, is do you find that certain times of the day you've gotten ungrounded? Like that the work that you did at the beginning is not holding, like that that it's just not holding together or something like that. You find that ever happens for you? And what do you do about it?

Adam, I would say almost every day. Oh, good. It's not just me. Right. So, you know, dual heading, doing the job of 2 officers, being a communications officer and also, you know, leading the largest company, most diversified company, there's going to be things that happen left and right, whether it's, you know, mission-related, personnel-related, Things happen. And I think it's good to be in a positive mental state, readying yourself for the battles ahead of you during the day. But it's also putting yourself in a conscious mindset that things can alter. And when it does, when things alter, you're able to adapt and overcome. And I think that is where I have— where I gain value when it comes to resiliency.

It's 3 o'clock in the afternoon and something just happens. It's unexpected, or you get an email or a phone call or whatever it might be that just catches you a little unawares. Do you have a process or something that you do in that moment that helps you to get back to that place where, as you said earlier, You are a life that emulates unconditional love in that moment.

I don't think there's— there's a lot of things that I experience and I learned to cope with a lot of situations. So oftentimes a lot of the situations that I face thankfully is not new. So I'm able to cope with a lot of those new circumstances that arrive. But to answer your question directly, I don't think I find myself frustrated at the moment, at the heat of the moment, but as soon as I put out the fire or as soon as I accomplish that specific task that I had to accomplish, I definitely do a reflection point of how I could have done better, but I do that internally. But when it comes to impacting mission, impacting Marines and their lives, I think You know, bringing the staff together, because it's not just me who's feeling the pressure in an organization that's that big to— and running missions left and right. I think it impacts not only myself, but my staff and people who I work with. So bringing the staff together, doing an after-action report, and figuring out how we can better cope with the situation, similar situations, is something that I do, and I think it's beneficial for me personally. So reflecting on, on the situation and learning from, from the experience.

We use something called the— just a typical feedback loop, I suppose, that involves 3 sort of statements, um, or questions really, which is, you know, sort of an assessment of what's worked or what's worked for me, what didn't work for me, what could be done differently. That kind of a feedback loop is is something that, as a— as our smaller, much smaller company than, than the one that you're, that you're working in, the feedback is so important because it's so easy to just sort of internalize, internalize things. And then when there is kind of a blowup or a, you know, something, uh, that's more, you know, at a heightened, more heightened state of emotion even, it's usually not because of the thing that just happened. It's because there was all this stuff That had just sort of built up over time and led to that now, you know, we're gonna— there's a need for a release or something. I'm curious if there are times when you find that the feedback is actually counterproductive. Do you feel like as a leader, say, feedback can have the opposite effect? Is it sometimes not something that you want to engage in or you postpone even?

As a leader, I think feedback is critical to ensuring the organizational success, and feedback can be both positive and negative. But personally, as a leader, I think you have to be able to take negative feedback a lot better than positive feedback, because when a situation comes up and you as a leader in charge of an organization take negative feedback in a disappointing manner, or when you abruptly go emotional about the situation, That's going to prevent future iterations of feedback. And sometimes I learned that negative feedback is what's most useful to progressing the organization to positive ways. Right. So I think both are valuable and both can contribute positively. But the most important thing, you as a leader, you have to understand how you receive feedback. And how you respond to those feedback. And, and I've learned that, you know, responding, you know, to negative feedback is equally important to responding to positive feedback.

How important is failure?

To me, extremely important, and to, to a certain degree. So countless nights that I spent in emergency rooms as a platoon commander referring Marines to, you know, access to treatment follow-up procedures were some of the most challenging, but also most rewarding experiences of my military service. And I say that because it was a failure, right? But it was a positive failure. It was a success story at the end where, you know, no Marine, sailor, or their family members lost lives, right? Mm-hmm. So, to me, failure is very important, but the level of failure is also important. As a leader to assess and understand.

Yeah. Just as we wrap up our conversation, which I feel like there's— this is such a timely— it couldn't be any more timely with everything that's been going on in the sort of on a global basis that so many people have been so isolated and loneliness and anxiety and depression are much more on the radar as conversations people are having and things that people are aware of. And that being something that you've been involved in helping servicemen and women deal with for a while now, I'm just curious, what was the inspiration for you to get involved in that? Was there some catalytic type event that you were witness to that just, you said, I have to step in and do something here?

I think to answer your first question about the pandemic, I think it's an A profound understatement to say that the pandemic had an impact. I think it had a significant impact on not only the Marines and service members that I serve with, but also the world as a whole, right? But in the Marine Corps, we have coping mechanisms and we have gym— gyms that are open. We come to work, we use our, you know, precautions, but, you know, life is almost normal. Right. Missions are still going on. There's still things that we have to do as Marines and as service members. To answer your question on what motivated me to, you know, pilot the resiliency program in my organization and to make an impact, I think it's deeper than my life. And, you know, in my adolescence, immigrating at age 10, my parents courageously assimilated to the hardships of immigrant life. sacrificing for the next generation, for my success, demonstrating unconditional love. Like, my parents inculcated that true success is not defined by the wealth of knowledge, recognition, societal position, nor money. True success is the ability to provide genuine care and the heart to love and influence those around you in meaningful and positive ways. Yes. And consequently, I spent my 20s incorporating the life lessons from my parents And values rooted in faith of unconditional love and gratitude, placing the good of others before my own. And it's not to toot my own horn or place myself on the pedestal, but in the military and in communities, wherever service called, right? You know, loving what I do, I rose through the ranks, you know, holding a current position. And I think I try to use that influence and power to make a positive change for the Marines. And one of the ways that I was able to do that was through the Resiliency Program. But, you know, it's not just the Resiliency Program that leaders kind of provide positive influence to the Marines. There are different programs within the Marine Corps, within the service that provide care, support, resources to the Marines and service members. So, I'm extremely thankful for the opportunity that the command is giving me to, for me to be able to pilot the program and to make a positive impact. I hope that kind of answered your question.

I really hope you're enjoying this episode of the Change Proof Podcast. If you've not yet gone out and gotten your own copy of Change Proof, it's not too late. You can get your copy right now by going to changeproof.com and not only getting the book and all the bonuses there, but getting access to our proprietary resilience assessment tool. It'll just take you 3 minutes to do, and it's something that will really help you to utilize the book even more effectively to create practices and rituals and habits that will increase your mental, emotional, physical, and even spiritual resilience for the long term. Again, go to changeproof.com to get your copy. Yeah. As you said, there's no kind of way to encapsulate what the world has experienced and is still dealing with. And more than anything, I think just that the conversation is happening. This is something people are discussing openly is a really big deal. I'm wearing this shirt for a reason today. It says, Got Your Back, for those of you that are maybe watching this on YouTube. You know, it's a principle. In the Marines, certainly, as you said, no soldiers left in the field. Nobody's left behind. We have each other's backs. It's just, what does the principle mean really? I think that's an evolving conversation and question, but I'll ask you as we are winding things down, what does this term got your back or having somebody's back, what does that look like and mean to you?

I think it's a constant reminder that I'm in a position of authority, And I'm in a position of leadership and how I use my influence and power to affect positive change is really dependent on me. And as leaders like myself in an organization, going back to the quote that I shared, it's the culture that we set, right? So it's the culture of getting your back. It's the culture of looking out for each other, not at the top management level or at the bottom, but in every single organization and the hierarchy within that organization. So I think it's a collective effort, and I think it's a holistic approach to human life, right? Caring for one another, being passionate for other people's success, and be willing to sacrifice yourself so that others may benefit from your sacrifice. I think that is the spirit of Your t-shirt, Getting Your Back.

Awesome. Well, I can't thank you enough, Captain Lim, for your service, for what you're bringing to the service, not just for the service, but the way you are, you are innovating and adding value to, to a service that has been around for a very long time. And I know there's a lot of people just like you that want to see things be improved in every way that it's possible. And, and at the, at the root, that people that have given of themselves self— so selflessly, but have given, given their service, that they are truly cared for. And that is not an— that's not an easy task under, you know, even the best of, of circumstances. So thank you so much for that work.

No, thank you. And thank you for, you know, providing me the opportunity to share my story and, you know, hopefully impact the audience in positive ways. So thank you for your time and, and your support, Adam.

I'm going to ask you this question, and I know the answer already for me, but, but I, I won't— I want to ask it. Daniel, do you love your life?

100%. Absolutely. Unconditionally.

Yeah. Awesome. Well, everybody, if you've, uh, if you've enjoyed this episode, be so thrilled if you would share it with someone, and, uh, someone that may may be struggling at this moment, or just somebody that would benefit from it. Somebody that has influence that can share it with other people. We can't thank the folks in service enough for the work that they do and for their sacrifices and resiliency. This is a pilot program, but I'm sure it's just the beginning really, because it's so important that we recognize that we all go through many, many ups and downs in our lives and in our careers and in everything in a single day. It's a roller coaster, but resiliency really is that is a key ingredient to being able to leverage all of that uncertainty, all of that adversity even, so that we grow. And as we grow, our world grows. With that, again, thank you so much. Feel free to subscribe, leave a comment. You go to adamarkel.com/podcast to leave a comment. We'd love to find out what you thought about the episode as well. And I'll just say ciao for now. And again, hoping that today you find a good reason to love your life, No matter what. So this is a kind of a first here, but I'm appending a little piece of this conversation that Daniel and I were having just after this podcast ended. So this is going to be just a couple of minutes here as something really important to add. So we are talking about the term unconditional love. Daniel, what's your feeling about what that word means, that term means, and how it applies to feedback?

I think a lot of people have a misconception of what love is versus what unconditional love is. Unconditional love is loving others or loving something without expecting anything back. So I think it ties back to some of the conversation we had about feedback, right? A lot of people love, but they also want to get that love reciprocated back to them. But unconditional love, I think, is on the next level where You're pouring everything that you have to love, to provide, to care for the person that you love without expecting anything back. And I think that's the beauty of it. And I think that's the value that unconditional love adds versus normal, how we say love one another.

Yeah. So much of how we are in the world and what we do and how we interact with other people relates back to how we Define love and what we— what our experience of love is. And my own experience is that it can be very conditional, that we love other people when they then behave the way we want them to, when they're nice to us. We love ourselves when we do well in life, we perform well, we get grades and get a good job, make money, you know, then we love ourselves. But when we don't do those things, or when we screw up, make mistakes,

Right.

Then the love seems to disappear, right? And the judgment kind of falls in line.

Absolutely.

So I think it's really love, is it?

No, I mean, I mean, one can define love in many ways, but I think unconditional love and having that heart and the capacity to embrace both the positive and negative feedback that may come from your unconditional love is something that you brace as a leader Not in the organization, not only in the organization, but leader of the world that we live in. And I think if all of us provided unconditional love to one another, to people whom we interact with, I think we can make a positive impact across the world in meaningful ways.

Yeah. That is the perfect way to end this podcast officially. Thank you, Daniel. Appreciate that.

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