Breaking Away From The Grip Of Burnout With Dr. Darria Long Gillespie

Life happens, and not always the way we expect it to. Every single day we face change, stress, and uncertainty. What if you could learn to thrive no matter what life throws your way? Resilience expert Adam Markel and his inspiring guests explore breakthrough strategies to fully embrace change and build the resilience required to become change-proof. Okay, today

we've got Dr. Darya Long on the Change Group podcast. She is a Harvard and Yale-trained emergency physician, regular health expert on CNN, NBC, and Netflix, a nationally bestselling author, has a widely viewed TEDx talk called Ending the Crazy Busy. She's also a mom of 2, a clinical assistant professor at the University of Tennessee, and the founder of trueve.com and the Burnout Study in Women. You're gonna absolutely love today's podcast, so sit back and enjoy. Okay, Dr. Darya, you heard your bio. There's a lot in that. You really have committed so much of your life to the work that you do, and you've been in academia, but you've done so many things, and it really is one of the more— I don't wanna say impressive, it's like highfalutin kind of word, but it is. It's an impressive bio, and there's a lot there. And probably the most important of which is that you're a mommy and all that. But I wanna ask you the question that I always start these things out, which is what's one thing, just one thing that's not part of that? Resilience. It's the unsung hero in every success story that you will ever hear about. And in times of massive change and disruption, the kind of rapid change that we're all experiencing as leaders, as business owners, as entrepreneurs, we have to learn how to not only increase our own resilience, but that of our teams. So right now we have a powerful opportunity for you to find out just how resilient you are. Some years ago, my team and I created the resilience assessment that more than 5,000 business leaders across the globe have taken. And all you have to do to get your own free resilience leader assessment is go to resiliencerank.com. It takes less than 3 minutes, and it's our gift to you for being the leader that you already are. Other free resources and tools will accompany your score instantly. So go to resiliencerank.com and find out just how resilient you are. Standard intro or bio that you would love for people to know about you?

Ooh, I mean, especially— hi, Adam— when you start off with highfalutin, I mean, darling, flattery will get you everywhere. I think one of the most defining things is my experience as a patient over the last 2 years and really starting out in that, seeing I'd been a physician for years, and I'd been a patient. We've all been a patient. I've had babies and done things like that. But it wasn't until I had a really terrifying medical experience and going through that, going through that vulnerability, that really honed and helped me refine what I wanted to do with my life and with my work.

So I know I'd probably get like hate mail or something. I would never get hate mail, but it would be comments for sure if I didn't now follow that breadcrumb right there, follow that lead. What do you mean?

What are you talking about? I mean, if you're going to get hate mail, we can do lots of things to get you hate mail, Adam. You know what?

I probably wouldn't have to try as hard as I think, actually.

But we could have fun with it. So here's what happened. I'd always been super healthy. I'd been a runner, ran, did my 3 miles pretty much every day, maybe a half marathon here or there. It wasn't super intense, but I got really sick in February of 2020. And then Somewhere in that fall, I don't even remember, which shows kind of how much I was ignoring my own body. I would be running and I would have these episodes where I suddenly would have chest pain, shortness of breath, and lightheaded so bad that I couldn't keep standing up. I couldn't keep running. I'd have to sit down. And I would sit down and wait about 30 seconds. The symptoms would go away and I would get back up and keep going because I had things to do and I needed to finish my run before my kids woke up. All the other stuff. I didn't have a smartwatch at the time because I was so consistent with my runs, I just didn't really bother. And as an ER doctor, I was like, oh, it's probably some benign SVT. It's one of these things, not a big deal. I'm deconditioned from COVID We've all been in lockdown. Not a big deal. It started to happen more and more, and I was actually working with a digital health company, consulting them, and got to the point that it was happening daily. So I got a little monitor. And December 30th, 2020, it's like 4:00 PM. I'm at home by myself in the basement. My kids are playing in the bounce house, which is what they usually do when I run, and my monitor arrives. Okay, I'm going to get it to work and see what this is. I'm going to get some answers. This is kind of an interesting experiment on myself. Kind of love biohacking. Get the monitor and symptoms— I run, symptoms come on, I sit down and get the heart rate. And I see that my heart rate was 270. And it's actually in something called ventricular tachycardia, which you don't have to be a doctor to know what that is. If you've watched Grey's Anatomy, it's usually when they start yelling code blue because you know the heart rate. Get the pads. Not that normal. Yes, exactly. It's usually typically followed by the pads, often the cardioverter pads. And so except I'm at home alone in the basement with my kids, and suddenly all of the things I had explained to myself about what this was, all the potentially benign causes. As an ER doctor, I actually never had a patient with that heart rate who had been sitting there talking to me. And I knew that there was no benign cause. So I called my cardiologist, a friend, and I said, I'm in ventricular tachycardia. They didn't believe me. They're like, okay, okay, all right. And so I sent the EKG that I just gotten to them and they called back in about 8 seconds. So that began the next 14 months of Doctors' visits, second opinions, trips to Johns Hopkins and Cleveland Clinic, a time when having to wear a life vest, which is one of those defibrillator vests, for 6 weeks and having to wear that through the Atlanta airport and it going off in the Atlanta airport when I then went into VTAC again in the Atlanta airport. Me sitting there with wires strapped to my chest and a battery pack that's now sirening because I'm now in VTAC and I'm anxiously trying to pull out the battery because I didn't want it to shock me and I didn't want the TSA agents running at me. to shoot me and getting shocked on the side of the highway one night coming home from the ER and nobody really knowing what's causing it. So that experience led me in a couple of different ways, and I will get into that, but it led me to do that vulnerability of being a patient. And suddenly, previously I'd seen patients go for things and I'd say, there's not data behind that, don't waste your time. But when somebody is telling you, we have to talk about heart transplants. Then you're going to go— I realized why. You will go to any extreme, to any woo, anything you can find to find answers. I went down that track and it made me really mad at what gets peddled to people when they're at their most vulnerable. It led me to my work that I do in stress and burnout. And it led me to part of that work also in meaning. How do we come through these moments of uncertainty and how do we survive them? How do we make ourselves— you talk about change-proof. I talk about shatter-proof so we can come through that without it breaking us.

Yeah. Oh my goodness. Well, there's so many inroads. And I want to continue to talk about, for the moment anyway, what it was like for you to be a patient. It's reminiscent of a book years ago called My Stroke of Insight, which you probably have read or folks out there, if you haven't read that book, Jill Bolte Taylor is the author. She was a researcher and a doctor. And she was a brain researcher. And she was experiencing a stroke. She was having a stroke and was conscious of what was happening and going on the same way that you were. And again, same thing. People around would be like, no, that can't possibly be the case. You couldn't be having this conversation with me, reaching out to me, calling, or anything. That's what was happening. But she was. And she gained—

She has a TED Talk on it, too, for your audience who just wants an easier inroad to hear her content. Totally.

Yeah. And the book is brilliant, by the way. So not every book that's sort of in that space can be if it's too scientific or it's too woo-woo-y, right? This one really hits the mark in the middle quite well. So what was it like for you to be a patient? I mean, you sort of shared that there was a level of understanding and compassion, perhaps even, that maybe didn't exist in the same way before you became the patient. Is that right?

I mean, yes. I think that was a level of understanding of what it feels when you're at that rock bottom. I think I also learned— I've always tried to be really empathetic towards my patients, but you learn even more the value of words.

So you were a doctor with bedside manner, a rare thing.

I tried to be. Yeah, I always— that's the goal. Then even more the value of words and realizing my diagnosis, also the uncertainty, and that when you don't have it, you will do anything just to get some answers. I also realized how much as my physicians also wanted to give me certain answers, even though when they did not exactly know, and it wasn't from a malicious standpoint, but sometimes they didn't know. And as a patient, sometimes I realized it was very hard, but you had to hear what people were saying and then distill it even further and say, this one is like when you have second and third opinions. That's what I also realized, the challenge of that. You have one doctor saying this, another saying the other. Both really smart people. And how do you digest this and how do you not internalize it, but actually keep moving forward? And that's hard as a physician, I think even, even harder as a patient. So it really made me as a physician now, when my patients are going through things, trying to help them understand not just the facts, but when there's some duality to it, how do we weigh that together? Because that's part of the hardest part and that's part of the art and science of medicine.

Yeah. I mean, and you're a TED speaker as well, correct?

Yes, I am. So, yeah. Mine was on ending the crazy busy and how not to feel crazy busy, how not to use that word phrase in your vernacular.

No kidding. I haven't seen your TED Talk. I will. But I'm asking this. Is that— this story a part of that TED Talk?

Well, no, because that TED Talk was in 2019, I believe.

Mm-hmm.

And this happened New Year's Eve of December 2020. Right. So no, this is not a part of that.

Got it. So this experience—

I like to keep things dramatic.

Afterward. Yeah. So if you were now delivering a TED Talk and this was going to be included, this experience, is there a through line from that experience that would be the essence of your TED Talk? Tough question, but I'm putting you on the spot.

Wow. I like how you were like, hey, come up with a new TED Talk line. Go.

Exactly.

Please. I think what it was, it is the Living with the uncertainty and how you live with the uncertainty, how you find meaning amidst it, and particularly how you flex that muscle of living in uncertainty. It's very easy sometimes you're like, I just want an answer.

Yeah.

I just want to know what this is. And we try to rush because it's so uncomfortable to feel so uncertain.

Yes.

And the challenge is learning to live within that. I think also I would bring in something that we actually studied in the burnout study in women, which I know we'll talk about the burnout study in women in a little bit, but One of the things that's most important was a factor called coherence. Now, you do a ton on resilience and building that. Coherence is slightly different. And kind of explaining it, I'm sure you know of Viktor Frankl and his book, Man's Search for Meaning. Yes. And for any of your audience that's not familiar with it, go read the book. You'll have every page dog-eared in there. But he looked specifically at— he himself had survived the concentration camps. And he looked at people who also survived, and he found that those who were most optimistic and hopeful about survival and about being rescued were not the ones that did the best and survived the concentration camps. It was the ones who had a sense of meaning. And actually what's become this factor known as coherence. And coherence is kind of 3 factors. One is how do you make sense of what's happening in your life? You know, what's the story you tell about it? Number 2 is what is the degree of manageability, control, or agency you have? And number 3 is what is the meaning you give to it? And that sense of coherence, how we look at the world, was what Frankl found they survived. And we also survived concentration camps. And then in the burnout study in women, we found that when you look at burnout, women with higher degrees of optimism did not protect them against burnout. It was their higher degree of coherence. That was more predictive and more preventative against burnout.

It makes sense. I mean, Frankl's meaning therapy was really born out of that experience, but even was being incubated while he was a prisoner. And he was thinking, I mean, it's hard to even put yourself in that situation. We could imagine this, but people are dying all around him. And the likelihood of him dying in that camp was very, very high, almost 100%. Right. But he's thinking about how this experience is going to be something he will be able to use and help people with after So this ability to look beyond the immediacy, the circumstances as they were. And what's interesting to me in connection with what you said earlier is that that's in some capacity looking beyond the uncertainty. And again, this is not Viktor Frankl's work. It's not part of— it may be part of what you're describing as coherence, but it's almost like you leapfrog, not living with Pandora, you know, with the Pollyanna glasses or something, this constant everything is always good, toxic positivity, as it's sometimes referred to these days. But just being able to leapfrog outside of that uncertainty, almost like rising sort of when a plane goes above the cloud line and you think, well, it's a cloudy day and there's no sun in it. I travel a lot. As soon as you hit that level above the clouds, the sun has returned. Yeah. Just to know that that's the truth. That's a fact. The sun didn't go away. Clouds moved in and temporarily, obscure your view of the sun. That's the truth. Not optimism, not BS. That's just the truth of it. But when we're so locked in the moment that all we can actually experience is the clouds, and the clouds being that I cannot see, things are uncertain, it really can be quite debilitating.

Yes. And just an example for that. That was one of the things that kept me through when we were— when I was at these points of heart transplant conversations, in which, as a note, As a doctor, anybody a doctor out there watching, never have that conversation of, you know, we just want to make sure that you understand that a heart transplant's in the future. It's like, I know. And I think one of the things I learned from that is one is saying, where is the meaning? If I don't find some meaning in this, I'm going to lose my mind.

Right.

And I have to. And then secondly is the agency, which is one of those, your sense of control. I remember one night I was just, you know, right after the early, when they were trying to figure out what was going on, I was kind of wallowing. There's the why me, or what did I do wrong to deserve this? All of that. I was washing my face one night and suddenly it kind of hit me. I was like, I'm sitting here crying. I know the top people at all the top institutions. I've spent the last 48 hours not messaging them because I've been too busy crying. I have stuff I can do here. But it's so easy. I mean, it is human nature. So you get this awful news and you want to do the one. But as soon as you realize I have agency, as soon as you can figure out just that one thing, it helps you lift your eyes above the clouds. Yeah. So it's not just, like you mentioned, an optimistic Pollyanna vision of looking above the clouds of what's one thing I can do? Where's my agency? Right now.

Yes. And so what was your agency then? What did you seize upon that you could—

At that moment, it was, who are the 5 people I can reach out to right now who can get me a second opinion here and can help me get more information of figuring out this diagnosis of what's going on?

Got it. So again, if we're TED Talk, I don't want to spoil the TED Talk before it's happened because it might just happen, right? Did you end up getting a heart transplant?

No. So I'm not going to spoil it. No, I have—

It's just for us here.

It was just amongst friends and all your listeners. I will say it because I'm so grateful for the work of Cleveland Clinic. A 9-hour ablation procedure with 5 different attendings at Cleveland Clinic, and it's just the best people in the world. And so, yeah, so actually right before this, because that's why I was trying to figure— making sure we needed to be on camera because I went for a little walk jog beforehand because I just Didn't want more caffeine. I was like, I need to wake up. And so, yeah, so it's different. I'm not going to be doing any more marathons, probably not in my future, and modifications. But yeah, back to finding that joy and being able to move and moving forward.

So I'm going to ask you a question, and I so appreciate that, Dr. Daria, that you would spoiler— do the spoiler alert with us. So now we know at least that it's a happy ending to the story, right?

It's a happy ending.

I want to ask you about the mind-body connection. And I think if I was going to ask any number of doctors that question, they'd probably cringe. Maybe they wouldn't show it, but on the inside, I

love this.

What the F is he about to do?

Right?

Yeah. Let's get into it. I've been reading a book by Dr. John Sarno, which massive bestseller years ago. I think it came out in 1991. It's been reissued a lot of times called Healing Back Pain. And in many ways, it's a book about his research. And he's a medical doctor, and he's thousands of patients where they came to him with back pain and other pains. But primarily, it was a study about folks with those issues with their back. And I think a lot of people listening to this or watching this right now go, oh, if I can only just heal my lower back or my sciatica, or if I could just not ever get another back spasm in my life, I'd give away a lot of money if I could just guarantee that. Right? And his whole piece of this has to do with the mind body connection as, as an answer to this back issue. It sounds like your heart, and I didn't know where this was all leading. I wanna quickly parenthetically say I went to get my physical 4, 5, 6 months ago and I hadn't had one through COVID. So it's the first time I've been in there. And doctor said to me, you're in great shape, all that, but your heart rate's a little low. I think you should go at your age, just go see a heart guy, you know, a cardiologist. And I was like 55 or 56 heart rate. And really long story short, I wore a heart monitor. I got a CT scan of my heart, all that kind of stuff, just to be sure. And in the end, all is great. Better than normal is what they said. I don't know, magnesium or calcium or something. And all the parts are working good. But I lived also with that little bit of uncertainty for several weeks about what's really going on. I've been athletic my whole life, and my heart's always. Am I just super calm? Like, I don't know. I was pretty much type A personality lawyer for so many years. Yada yada. So I was living with that bit of uncertainty and whatnot, and I was managing my thoughts and managing on some level even my emotional reaction to that uncertainty while that was going on, as well as with people around me and who knew and my wife and others. But so I want to get back to this mind-body connection because. Mine turned out to not be structural, but we were just concerned and go out and get the tests and all that kind of stuff. Yours was a structural thing. You did require surgery to fix something inside. What's your thoughts? It's a very broad question. What's your thoughts on the mind-body connection as to what you experienced?

I love it. And I want to just go back to one thing you said a minute ago that most doctors might cringe when asked about the mind-body connection. It's interesting. Part of what I do as my own platform, and then recently launching trove.com, kind of just systematizing more of what I do of really bringing truth back to the information people hear and making it actionable and giving you peace of mind, is I launched it because, you know, having been this patient, having seen this woo and realizing why at times you're really vulnerable, and not that everything is woo, but seeing how we, we will go to any source when you're really desperate. And talking to some really smart female friends who said, okay, My doctors talk about this stuff over here. There's these other sites I find that I will not name their names that talk about wellness and lifestyle and have zero science behind them. There's nothing in the middle. And I had questions about this stuff in the middle, but nobody's talking about it. So I went over here because nobody else is talking about it. And that's why I thought, you know what? We can talk about it. I can talk about that. I look at evidence on a daily basis and I know these top experts across all the aspects, and I think there's truth amongst all of it. You can find grains of truth in all of it. Let's go there. Let's answer those questions that are keeping women up at night and men too, particularly about their wellness and their health and with the evidence. Let's go there. So I'm glad that you asked that because I love this kind of stuff. And I think that the evidence is incontrovertible at this point that there is a connection, a mind-body connection, and it goes both ways. Anatomically, you have your sympathetic nervous system, which is your fight or flight, and how that doesn't just make your muscles run quickly. That changes how your gut is working. That changes what your bladder is doing. It changes your reproductive hormones because we're not made to be having a lot of babies when we're currently being chased by tigers. So anatomically, that exists. Parasympathetic nervous system. We know how it affects how our gut functions and then how our gut and our microbiome and what we eat and the things we put in our body, how it then affects our stress levels and our mental health. So incontrovertible. Absolutely. Is it the only thing? Could I cure myself Could I cure my heart by thinking it so? No. And I think that sometimes people like to go into camps because it's easier to make them there to be soundbites when you go into an extreme camp. So there are things that are independent of the mind-body connection that we can have as problems. But yes, I think the mind-body connection is absolutely a key component of any condition. And it's something we always have to consider, whether we're talking about anxiety or diabetes. It's not something we can ignore anymore.

Yeah. It's interesting because I think a lot of people have sort of some sort of pain or whether it's intermittent or it's chronic, that kind of thing. So for me, I'll just use myself as an example as opposed to generalizing. I've had some challenges with my back at times and problems with a knee that lasted about a year and a shoulder thing that lasted about a year that came and then went. I had some sort of blotchiness on my skin at a certain point that would come and go. And I started to only recently really think, and not just think, but sit with the idea that I've been great at coping. And I wrote a book called Pivot, which is a book about how you cope. And this latest book, Change Proof, is a book about how you cope with uncertainty and vast amounts of change and unending change and things like that. But on some level, being a great coper, you still pay a price for that. And so what I've been sitting with is the idea that sometimes our bodies Are great at defending us from feeling the kind of things that are really uncomfortable. As you said, sitting in that uncertainty is super uncomfortable, and we will do almost anything to get out of it.

Mhmm.

No matter what that is, even if it's reaching for that, the quickest answer that we wanna hear or something else. But the feelings that we have are difficult to deal with. And we learn from very early on in our lives, sometimes even from our parents' example and examples elsewhere that it's just better not to feel certain things and just move on, get on with stuff. And so we suppress those feelings. And I guess my question to you is, in your experience and what your belief system is today, do you believe that some element of our physical challenges in life, aches and pains and that kind of stuff, is the result of our suppressed emotions, the stuff that we've just sort of routinely pressed down so we can be better copers And more successful, right? Perfectionists and achievers of all kinds have all these physical problems that sometimes they think it's, you know, I injured myself, or, you know, there's degeneration in my spine or in a disc or some other stuff like that, when in essence, the root cause of it is not dealing with our own emotions. What do you think of that, Doctor?

Such a great question. So here's what I think. I think in some people, it might be suppressed emotions. It could be. Or it could simply be suppressing your response. You have pain somewhere, you have a headache, you're exhausted, and you think, I just have to push through. So again, you're suppressing your response. And just a physiological example, we have patients that could be in septic shock or shock for any number of reasons, and we give them adrenaline. So we give them epinephrine, we give them norepinephrine, we give them all these things. Eventually, you get to a point that you are giving them the max dose of epinephrine, you've given them the max dose of norepinephrine, you are flogging their receptors. But their receptors are so saturated, they can't do anymore. And sometimes we have this mentality on— bringing it back to lifestyle— that, you know, I'm exhausted, let me just take some more caffeine, let me just burn that midnight oil, let me just keep blogging. And you get to the point— there's a book called The Body Keeps Score— you get to a point that your body, you cannot— your receptors are full. You cannot keep saturating them, so you cannot keep pushing and you have to come back. And I think it is And when we talk about not using crazy busy or solutions from burnout with the burnout study of women, the solution is not that slogging is not to say, let's do less. Let's all run off to an ashram and just leave our lives behind. It is to say, okay, how do we compete? How do we do the things that we actually want while weeding out the other things that are forcing us to slog, whether that is actual tactical things that we're doing or kind of mentally how we're looking at it?

Yeah. I mean, I love another TED speaker who's got a very successful TED Talk. We should all have as many views on our TED Talks as Angela Duckworth, right? And I do love her work, and it's a great talk. And yet I routinely— I guess I do this fairly often now— take exception to this idea that we should be gritty and grit is our answer to resilience. I push back on that quite a bit these days because I feel like that's While that may have been even what would've created more opportunity for success before the pandemic, and I don't believe that, I think it, it really is a last century paradigm. And this current century, millennials and Gen Zs are telling us for a long time, and we have, Randy and I, my wife and I, we have 4 kids in that age, in those demographics as well. We've been seeing it. They don't buy into that. And that's not because they're lazy. That's not because they don't have passion for life or want to do great things or aren't willing to work hard, as some people have suggested. It's that they actually intuitively understand that that grit or that grind or that slogging that is the method that you get things done in the world, that that's a broken paradigm and it's not sustainable and it will never lead to sustainable resiliency. Either. It sounds to me like your study of women and burnout has come to similar conclusions. Maybe will you tell us about the burnout study among women? I'm very curious.

Yeah, absolutely. So, and where this came from was, so I launched True, which is when there are questions that keep us awake at night, we put data-driven guidance behind them, lens to them. We're looking at all sources and we make it actionable to give you peace of mind to get back to your life. And so I wanted to write an article on burnout, and I realized that there was There were lots of anecdotes about people being miserable. I said, okay, great, but what do we do about this? And there wasn't a lot of actionable data. So it was one of those examples of the universe coming together. I found these really amazing researchers who do institutional burnout, looking at physicians and then now looking at individuals, partnered with Good Housekeeping as our media partner, which is kind of one of the things we do now is we identify the researchers, the media partners, and then we bring in the funding as well. And then Luna Bar. And Computers for Kids came on as corporate funding. So again, everything just came together in this beautiful ecosystem and had 4,000+ women take this 30-minute academic study. It's the first large-scale study of burnout in women since COVID looking not so much at how bad it is, because we know it's— you didn't need enough study to tell people that they're feeling burned out, but looking at why and what can we do about it. So one of the things we looked at was a new— we kind of developed a new framework. We call it the do-it-all discrepancy, and it gets the fact that 82% of our respondents said they felt they should be able to do it all, and 7% said they felt that they actually could. And yes, we're gonna go and talk to those 7%. I wanna know what their special sauce is and what's working for them. But that delta, the gap— and I know you talk about a gap in a slightly different way, but it is the gap. What is driving my— one person's burnout may be different from somebody else's, but what is universal is that gap between your feeling that what you should be able to do your ideal and what you have the resources to do. That gap we found is directly predictive of burnout, burnout, anxiety, depression, a number of things, especially burnout for this study. And I think where millennials are getting and under— starting to understand, and Gen Z even better, is in that shoulds list, we have the very real things which also are becoming more complex work that you might have to do, which now is becoming 24/7 childcare, which is always getting more complex, and health and all these things that become more complicated. And on top of that is like this idealized stuff that not only is it enough, you know, speaking to working moms for those people, but you can extrapolate this to every audience. Not only is it enough to be a working mom, but are you also, when you cook, are you baking them organic cakes made out of oats that you grow in your own backyard? And are they in travel soccer at the age of 3? And is Pelé one of their coaches? And while you're doing that—

Get back to— don't you think all women and all moms, just because we're talking about women at the moment, shouldn't they all be growing their own food? Don't you think that everything they put in their kids' mouths should be something that they sourced from their own backyard?

I do it, yes, regularly in my garden, where I also grow the up yours for anybody who asks me to do that.

The up yours is a great crop, don't you think?

We all need a little more up yours in our cropage.

Absolutely.

Of course, with perfect hair. And we're seeing this because we're seeing it on social media all the time. And well over 60% of women, surveyed compare themselves against somebody who they think is doing it all. So we wanted to get at all of that.

All of that. Can I just call bullshit on that? Is that okay? Oh, I'd love to.

Bullshit. Yes. Yes. You know what else we found?

See, our species, I just, that's what I want to say about that.

Yes.

The male perspective is bullshit.

Yes. But the degree—

Well, when you want to be perfect, right? And this is not gender related. When you want to be perfect, And that's personality trait. We don't have to try to unravel that. But you grow up wanting to be liked. You want to please people. You wanna do things perfectly. You wanna achieve. Right? There's nothing wrong with that. But the pressure of that and the feelings that it produces, which sometimes subconsciously, we don't even realize that we feel anxious about it or resentful of our children or of these things or angry even about them. Yes.

100%. And it's subconscious. And I was talking to somebody who was one of the early 5 employees at one of the big social media platforms. And he said, I realized when they had as many neuroscientists about how to make this algorithm sticky as they had coders, that we were going to be changing how we use technology. Yeah. So that's when I realized they were building this to make it addictive. And what we found also is that women's most Top 2 emotions they felt after being on social media, worry and envy. Way below were happiness, optimism, and pride. And that, again, was directly tied to burnout. And it's because we, as a species, are driven to compare, to look around us. But social media makes that universe against which we compare ourselves so much more prevalent. We can compare ourselves against everybody. And you also see only the snippet. You see the perfect-looking image.

Magazine covers and airbrushing started that long before social media, not to take them the hook at all, but we've been trying to tell people of all kinds and all shapes and sizes what they should do, what they should look like, how they should behave forever.

Yes. Forever. It's just— it's now. It's 24/7.

Now it's— you have no place to retreat from it, really. I mean, you do. I mean, I ask our people this all the time because we're, as you said, this is constant cognitive arousal for us. We can't go anywhere with it. I ask audiences all the time during my keynotes. I used to say it as a joke, but I go, how many of you go to bed with this thing at night? And you know what? It's like, 40% of the audience now raises their hands up to say honestly they do.

Yes. Yes. So there is some really interesting— so when I talk about burnout and all these things, we talk about the philosophical things, uncertainty and coherence and things, but then we talk tactical. And one of the things is having a moment to disconnect. When you look at the research of recovery, and there's multiple recovery experiences, but one of the things is having that disconnection, turning off that hypervigilance and not just saying, I'm in between checking emails now. No, literally setting it away, saying, for this hour, I'm not picking it up. I'm not looking at it. And that's key because another part of it is what I talk about is micro recoveries. We're up here in our sympathetic nervous system, fight or flight response all the time. Our body's not made to do that. We're made to cycle between sympathetic and parasympathetic. So having those moments where you drop down and you cycle back down, breathe your parasympathetic nerves, which is your rest and digest. system becomes predominant for a period. So these little micro recoveries when you're dropping down, and that includes setting down your phone and having those moments, even if for those people watching who can't do it for an hour, do it for 5 minutes. Go to the bathroom without your phone. Just do that. Just go to the bathroom out there. See what happens. Because our brain needs to digest. And if our brain doesn't have time to digest with quiet moments, then it's always chattering. That's why we can't sleep at night because we lay down. It's the first time we've had quiet and our brain is going to digest. So 5 minutes. I challenge all of your audience, like anybody, to message me if they did not pick up their phone when they went to the bathroom next time.

Yes.

I'm sure I'll get some great comments on that one.

Another one of those things that's so simple. Our research is very similar in this respect, that resilience is not about endurance. Again, it's not the grit model. It's— in all due respect to folks that have been talking about how important it is that you grind and you should be doing your side hustle from 7:00 PM until 1:00 AM. I don't know. It's just nonsense because when we're depleted, Everything suffers mentally, emotionally, physically, spiritually, everything. It's literally the lower tide lowers everything. It's— and the raising of the tide. Wow. The pace of change over the last couple of years has been rapid. And if you're a leader, a business owner, an entrepreneur, you know exactly what I'm talking about. Every day it's something different and something new. But the one thing that I've learned in performing at the height of all of those roles has been that we must be resilient. In fact, it's the unsung hero in every success story that you will ever hear about. And it's the reason why my team and I created the resilience assessment that more than 5,000 business leaders across the globe have taken. And all you have to do to get your own free resilient leader assessment is go to resiliencerank.com. It takes less It takes less than 3 minutes, and it's our gift to you for being the leader that you already are. Other free resources and tools will accompany your score instantly. So go to resiliencerank.com and find out just how resilient you are. Raises everything. And the way you raise the tide is actually in the word that you just shared with us, which is it's a recovery. It's— this is not about how we endure. It's about how we restore. Restoration is its own unique own art and its own science, and it is a combination of both art and science. It really is. It's such a holistic practice. So even if you just decided at the beginning of the day— again, these people that have the phone either in their bed with them or next to them, because it's so easy to start your day immediately by engaging with this, whether it's to— you turn off the alarm clock. I get it. Some people are— there's still— you could still get a wind-up alarm clock, right? You can still get the one that—

I have— I don't have a wind-up alarm clock, but I have a I have a non-phone alarm. I have a light-up alarm clock is what I have. Yeah.

Do you think it's that when the lights would go out and the power would go out and the thing would blink, that people got so annoyed with how to figure out how to get it to stop blinking that they just got rid of those entirely? Right.

But there's a new invention, Adam. It's called the battery, and they just stick a battery in there. It's really, really exciting. You just need 2 AAs. Just— I'll send you some.

10 minutes at the beginning of the day, not Looking at your phone, because when you pick this thing up, it's always going to be someone else's agenda. And I'm not saying it's terrible or bad or whatever. I mean, I'm picking up the phone right now, and you could see on the— if you're watching this on YouTube, you can see this beautiful picture of that little boy.

It's so cute.

Yeah, that's our little Nakoa. And I just think as soon as I look at this, text messages, email, or even the news or whatever else is showing up on my phone, It's other people's agenda at the start of the day.

Yes.

It's so important that you begin in a place where you're determinative of your thoughts at the start, your feelings, and how you're even engaging with your feelings or engaging with the stuff that you processed while sleeping. Because so much of what's going on for us is only those suppressed or repressed feelings come out during our sleep. That's what dreams are so good for, the allegories of those dreams. So it's a simple thing. Like you said, don't take the phone to the bathroom with you. Start your day, maybe the first 10 minutes that you're tech-free. That's a simple, small toggle.

I love that.

Solution. Yeah. I wanna know a little bit more too, if you could, about how you're currently utilizing the information from that study. Because it's funny, the numbers are similar. We have a resilience assessment tool that we deployed a few years ago, and it's gotten really popular because it takes 3 minutes, which is remarkable. It's 16 questions. And we've come to understand some things that you and I can trade a little information here, a little recon. There's a couple of things that have come out across the board. This is studying leaders in organizations of every size and shape and kind, public, private, for-profit, not-for-profit. And it's about 5,000 leaders have taken this thing now. So can you give us some of the takeaways that you've gotten out of that study that you've seen among women and burnout?

Yes, absolutely. So how we are using it right now is we published our very first paper in late September, came our first paper coming out of it. And it's going to— we had so much data out of it that it's gonna be a series of publications. So a couple more coming out. We're speaking at conferences on it at a number of different places. Our first paper was specifically on the do-it-all discrepancy, which we talked about, and really looking at that. And we partnered again with Luna to do a campaign of #DefineYourAll because, again, social media, the world around us pushes us to have everything be our all. You are doing all of it. Yeah. But the reality is all of it doesn't always matter to you. It is not the slog just for doing it all's sake, but what floats your boat, like what lights you up doing those things. He talked about doing like late nights. Sometimes we all have to do late nights and do one more work every once in a while, but the fact that it's not every single moment. So one is choosing your role. Number 2 is really being deliberate about how we use social media. So we dove into social media for that very first paper since the impact of social media is so unique on our current generation, and also looking at self-comparison. So one other thing we haven't discussed is what I call comparitonitis, and other people talk about it as the comparison quicksand. Mm-hmm. No matter when you start to have those comparison moments and how to make Comparison is not necessarily like stress, intrinsically a bad thing. If you can use comparison to motivate you. Sure. Or to say, what are they doing that I— why do I feel this? But instead of allowing it to internalize and become that comparison quicksand, and so it makes you feel worse and worse about yourself. So be very careful with how we are handling comparisons. And then we're going to be going on with more papers. One thing we did create was the What's Causing Your Burnout quiz. We figured people don't really need another quiz on, again, how burned out are you. We want to know how at risk are you and what are your risk factors. You can go, it's an 8-question quiz. So again, takes like 2 to 3 minutes depending on how quick of a reader you are. And then at the end of it, we give you your risk, but more importantly, we actually personalize it and say, here's your— as given your answers, here are your top 3 drivers of stress. And we email that to them. The idea being, again, we want to take you from feeling burned out to how do we take you along this journey to not feel burned out anymore and give you 1 or 2 tips. And then we'll be writing way more on burnout and the responses. And then also, but again, the mind-body. So I talk a lot also to my patient people who are on my newsletter for burnout about how— what's the food? Intermittent fasting. How does that impact both your health and your mental health? Melatonin for sleep. What are all these other things that also are going to fit into that ecosystem and cause Or improve your burnout levels.

Yeah, indeed. I mean, the stress is the thing people think they want to get rid of, or it's sometimes misunderstood as something we need to do— have less of. But again, back to the research, it's not stress that's the issue. And there's a great TED Talk. I don't remember who did this one some years ago, but stress is not the problem. It's our lack of recovery from stress. That's— and in that particular TED Talk, I remember the woman was talking about how stress is not the thing that kills us. It's actually our belief about stress that creates the kind of stress.

I think of it in being an ER doctor. As an ER doctor, we're in the midst of it. I remember one time I had a patient. I was working in the ER and I get a call from security on the walkie-talkie because we still use walkie-talkies in the midst of all this, saying that the patient I was admitting for a heart attack had been going up to the 4th floor when the elevator broke and she was stuck between the 3rd and 4th floor. And could I please come help her because she was now stuck in the elevator and having chest pain again? So ran, pocketed some aspirin, pocketed some nitroglycerin, got my stethoscope and went running to the 4th floor. You can see the elevator in the shaft leaning in, ended up taking care of her and getting her better actually before they even fixed the elevator, which I considered a win. And I remember my intern saying afterwards, how did you stay so calm? How did you do that? And it is about how do you function amidst chaos without letting the chaos be internalized by you. Of course, we will do things to try to reduce the uncertainty and the chaos around us. We will, you know, you talk about routines all the time. We will decrease our decisions. We will decrease some of the variables as much as possible. But to a certain extent, uncertainty and chaos will always exist. And how do you live amidst that chaos and uncertainty without letting it be internalized?

Yeah, I mean, that's the norm, don't you think? Chaos and uncertainty and the unknown. That's the norm. Everything else is the norm. Exception to that rule.

Right.

So what do you do in a world where that's not only the norm, but it's going to become more and more prevalent? Disruption, change, the pace of it, the velocity of it only increasing. What do you do in that situation? And I think that's where both our work really overlaps. A nice Venn diagram here of where we have a common belief system and what I think has been guided by the research that you develop your resilience before you need it. That's the point of it. Right. So being calm in the moment of chaos isn't because somehow or another you're a great Zen, like, you're different, you're built different. No. It's that you've done the prep work to be calm in chaos. And I don't mean that that's just like, I practice meditation or something like that. It's that you've got recovery rituals as part of your normal routine so that you're not depleted. And because you're not depleted, It's possible to think rightly in the moment and make right decisions. Then that's the result of a lack of being exhausted, of being depleted. Because when we're verging on burnout or we're burned out, what we see happen, what happens is that we lack the capacity to think clearly and be patient. Yes. I got interviewed by Psychology Today. I guess it's a little less than a year ago about what happened at the Oscars last March, which was an odd thing that I was being tap for some insight on that topic. We all get it. Watched Will Smith get up, or at least we saw it on YouTube or something, and couldn't believe it. 'Cause I saw it on YouTube that night and watched it and thought it was a joke. Just thought it was somebody's meme or something. Yeah. But obviously, it wasn't a joke. It was real. And I was asked for just an opinion as to why that could have happened. My thought on it, and there's a lot of ways to look at it, 'cause he had a very challenging childhood, and the stuff about his mom, and the stuff about defending women and defending his wife, and all that kind of trigger, trigger stuff that was in there. I didn't speak to any of that. I just said he was depleted. And you'd go, well, does a guy who's at the top of the game— and truly, that's a person at the top of the heap, right, in terms of everything that you might think you want out of life— money and fame and celebrity and great marriage and kids and health and all those good things— and you go, what in the world does he have that's stressing him out? And yet, to me, a person who is depleted is a person that reacts to a stressor the way he reacted. He didn't wake up that morning. Will Smith did not put his feet on the floor that morning and go, I'm gonna— today, I'm literally gonna sabotage everything I've been working on my entire life, and I'm gonna do it in front of the world. I'm not gonna do it privately. I'm gonna do it in front of everybody.

No.

Right? Never happened. If Psychology Today came to you and said the same question, any thoughts on that event now, many months ago, what would you say to them?

I love that. And I think It gets to what we're talking about of just like powering through. There comes a point at which it is— yes, again, we all have to power through at times. There are times that I'm exhausted in the middle of an ER shift and you still have the next patient coming. But how do you get those moments of recovery? How do you replete when you're depleted, even if it's just for minutes? How do you not kind of live your life in this like moment of constantly being triggered? And yes, I think it's a lot of Being attentive to taking the recovery and being attentive to your feelings and your emotions and questioning the stories. It gets back to coherence. What are the stories we're telling ourselves about what's going on? What were the automatic stories for that story, for that example, for Will Smith that came up for him at that moment that had nothing to do perhaps with what Chris Rock was saying? What were his automatic stories and how do we question those? And yeah, and not being able to take that moment for ourselves.

Yeah. For those of you out there that have either dealt with something similar or may deal with something similar in the future, and I don't mean being at the Oscars in the front row and that whole thing happening. I just mean where you feel triggered in the moment to react because we see it's epidemic, the level of not just anxiety in the world around us, but the level of anger and impatience is just— it's staggering how quickly people are sort of just at the end of their rope or at the end of their fuse. A little self-serving note. To say it this way, in the book Change Proof, there's a model that's kind of similar to the coherence model you identified earlier. It has 3 parts, and it's super simple. It's pause, ask, choose. And there's more detail to it and all that. I won't get into it, but you can figure out what that looks like. Just simply, you pause, you ask, for example, what are my options in this moment? And then you choose.

Yes.

And I feel like if Will had just— I'll call him Will. He's a buddy. Okay. If Mr. Smith had sat there and paused and asked asked simply a couple of questions like, should I get up and go punch this guy? Should I get up and get on stage and hit somebody in front of the world? He would never have chosen that. He just didn't pause and ask any questions. It was just his fuse lit, and it was explosion after that. And so if we think about our own lives and the places where we write an email and hit send on that email, we shouldn't have hit send on that email. Or we have a conversation where we needed to be listening more than we were speaking, or we were not monitoring our tone in speaking to somebody. Wherever it is that this shows up, I'm just gonna— my call to action to everybody is just today, wherever that might happen, somebody flips you the bird in the car, or they beep, they lean on their horn because you didn't move past the light fast enough. Pause, ask, and choose is something you can do as well.

I love that model, Adam. Pause, ask, choose. I love that. And it makes me think of 2 things. One is we were talking about uncertainty, and when you're in uncertainty, it's so uncomfortable. It's like that itch. You gotta get an answer. Or similarly, when you are triggered, it's that itch. I've gotta punch somebody to make this feeling go away. I feel like I have to do something. I think people— that pause is so important because you can remember Sure. That awful feeling of floodedness, it doesn't last. It lasts about 90 seconds. If you look at the biochemical research, I think about frequently in the emergency department, even something— somebody said something rude or something, it'll dissipate if you just give it a second of pause and don't react. And the other thing is, in that moment, the ability to pause at that moment is often not dependent on how you are at that moment. It's dependent on what you've been doing the last 72 hours? Have you given yourself time to recover? Are you doing things that are meaningful? Are you doing things where you feel like you have an agency and you can be effective? And are you taking action in those ways?

Yeah. Brilliant. Such good stuff. Dr. Darya, I could talk to you all day.

This has been wonderful.

We're going to wrap it up, but I have one last question for you. And I know that our folks out there will have full show notes with information in the show notes, links to your site and work and And where they can get more information. I'm curious what type of ritual is most effective for you. You and I probably have a very similar life in that we are very much— and I use the word ritual to just replace the word habit. But there are things that we do on a ritual or habitual basis to help us to recharge, to recover in the sense that you just described it. I'd love to know what's the one go-to that you have.

Okay.

Maybe use that. Yeah.

I know you're a guru about having those routines. And I think, oh, I wanted to say one thing earlier, if I can just add it in. We were talking about your morning routines with not picking up your phone.

Yep.

Decide it the night before, because again, that cognitive decision load, giving ourselves more decisions. You don't want to at 7 in the morning or 6 or 5 in the morning saying, do I pick up my phone or do I not? Should I? No, decide the night before, not picking it up for 10 minutes, and then just make it a norm. For me, there's 3 rituals, but I'm gonna say 2. One is the minute I wake up. Now I go move. And I am not a morning runner. I look at those people who get up and say, I just love to get my run out in the morning. Like, I want to punch them in the face. It's kind of like those people who are like, I just like drinking tea. I don't need coffee. I don't really need caffeine. I want to punch them in the face, which maybe not be a good conversation since we just talked about the Oscars. I don't really plan to punch them in the face, just so we know. Just

so

we're clear. Just so we're I could have built that up, that routine, very slowly for about 12 weeks of slowly getting up and moving in the morning. And now, no matter what, I get up, I head to my treadmill, I get in 5 or 10 minutes, even if it is a walk, I move. And no matter what else happens that day, I have the physical benefits of movement and I have the mental health. And no matter what happens that day, something happens that freshens me. I took 5 or 10 minutes for myself, usually more, usually a half hour or so. I had that for myself. And I got that in. And I encourage everybody just to create a little movement habit, 5 minutes.

I love it. It's beautiful. You know what? I'll share mine as well because you inspired me to do that. I gave a TED Talk some years ago, just like you did, which was such a joy and so nerve-wracking. I mean, like, and I've been a public speaker for so long, and yet doing a TED Talk literally had me by the throat. I mean, like, oh.

It is so hard to talk for just 11 minutes.

Oh, I had 18 back in the day or whatever, but it's still so difficult. I told my wife at some point when she was saying to me at like 11 o'clock at night, she'd go, do you talk? Like, this is how our relationship is. She said, I'm trying to get in bed at 11 o'clock. Yeah, she'd get, do you talk? No, you cannot make me do it.

Leave me alone.

Yeah, it was literally like, leave me alone. And then I would do it. And it was just torture because I said, I don't know if I have enough brain cells to do this anymore. Like, I don't know, to memorize.

She wanted you to be able to do it in that second.

Yeah. She, she would do that. And it was perfect. And meaning her, the way she supported me that way. And it was beautiful, truly. I shared the development of a ritual. That was what my talk was about, how I developed this ritual from the life that I used to have, which was as a lawyer, 18 years as a practicing attorney. I'm retired now. But having had a panic attack ending up in the ER with somebody like yourself looking at me and going, oh, look at this poor knucklehead right here. He really—

Which is not what I say about my patients. But okay, I'll let you keep going.

He really thinks he's dying. He really thinks he's never gonna see his kids again. And I mean, like, sweating profusely, fingers tingling. Sound familiar, right? Like, heart beating on the outside of my body, it felt like. And I'm literally in I was scared, terrified, and at the same moment, I was so pissed at myself. I was so angry. So much self-loathing that was baked into that. And so it just was getting worse and worse and worse. And I'm looking at— and I'm going, I can't believe I'm putting my beautiful wife through this. I can't believe this is the way it's gonna end. I mean, it was just like that moment, right? Mm-hmm. So, coming out of that and waking up in the morning and starting the day with that anxiety, which is how the day greeted me for many years, anxiousness, angst, and anger at the start of the day, even because I was so frustrated with why I would even feel that way because I didn't understand it. So I started doing something at the beginning of the day about 12 years ago, which is when my feet hit the floor, the first recognition consciously that I have is that I've been given this gift, that there are people when I'm having that awareness, taking that breath in that moment, There are people taking their last, their very last breath in that same moment, in that exact same moment. And so I just started saying, I love my life, in the morning. Like, when I wake up, my first thing, my feet hit the floor as I say, I love my life, which could be replaced with, I'm grateful for my life. I appreciate my life. So that's been a thing I do consistently every day since.

I love that. I love that so much. And I do something similar. After spending about a week in the hospital at Cleveland Clinic one time, I remember the first morning I woke up at home and I woke up. I'm here. I'm in my bed. I'm here. And just like you said, there's so many people for whom that's not an option. And I think now that I think about it, thank you for crystallizing that for me. That's really a wonderful thing you just did. But that's what I do. That's the first thing I do still to this day. I wake Yep. I'm here. I'm going to go say hi to my kids. I'm here. I got this day. So thank you for that.

Oh, thank you. Thank you so much. I know we'll get phenomenal comments based on this conversation. So a reminder to folks, if there's somebody that you know that could really benefit from hearing what Dr. Daria shared today, the insights and the wisdom, feel free to share the show. I mean, that's how the word gets out anyway. And again, it may seem like I don't think it's being self-centered to say it, but we want the message to get out to more people. We do this really, at least at the level we're at, which has really got a great following, but there's not a money component. And I'm not saying there shouldn't be or there couldn't be, but that's not the driver. That's not the primary driver for why we do the show. So if you do know some people that would really benefit from hearing this, please share that. Leave a review. The reviews are great because it helps the algorithm to help us get the word out and have people, more people consume this content. So the review would be great. We'd love that. And of course, you can leave a comment at adammarkel.com/podcast for either Dr. Darya or myself or both of us. We will respond to that accordingly. Thank you so much for your time today. I love this conversation.

Thank you. Me too, Adam. Thank you so much. And thank you to all of your listeners. I welcome any questions from them. I love hearing from people who have heard snippets of these conversations.

Way cool. All right, everybody, ciao for now. Bye-bye.

Bye.

Well, I so enjoyed that conversation with Dr. Daria Long. I mean, to hear a doctor, especially someone with her experience and her expertise, her insights, share so vulnerably about what it meant and what it was like for her to be on the other side of that diagnosis and what it meant to be a patient and having to deal with the uncertainty and the worry over the the health of her heart as she was busy doctoring and helping others to resolve their health challenges, as well as being a mom and everything else that she had going on in her life. She gave us quite a recipe for how it is that we can be more resilient in the face of those challenges. And she used a word that I wanna repeat right now, and that word was coherence. Coherence. And there were 3 things that she identified as being part of how we develop coherence, which is a word I could easily feel is interchangeable with the word resilience. And she was giving us some really concrete examples of how it is that we have to use these— this 3-step process as a way to get leverage over the fear that comes up when we are living in a state of unknown. And often the worst fear has to do with the unknown surrounding our health, especially when we receive some sort of a diagnosis or when we're given some reason to believe that there's something structurally wrong with us because our bodies are exhibiting signs of some pain or we're experiencing pain in some area of our bodies. I brought to the table a reference to Dr. John Sarno and his book Healing Back Pain. And I wanted to find out from this doctor, from our guest today, what her thoughts were on the mind-body connection. And we got to get into that, which was fun for both of us, I think, today in, in doing that. We really did track the source of so much of our worry and how it relates to fear and how it relates to our relationship to change and to uncertainty. Again, I thought this conversation was valuable not just to me, but to anybody that I would feel would also have moments where you feel almost paralyzed by the level of uncertainty that can exist when your health is not as you'd like it to be, or when, again, maybe you're feeling anxious and don't exactly know why or what to do about it. I think there's a great underlying cause for a lot of the discomfort that we're feeling right now. I expressed some of my own thoughts and opinions about that and got to go back and forth with Dr. Long, and I think we had a great time of it. So I hope you love the episode. I hope you found it as valuable as I did and that there are others in your world that might also benefit from this conversation. If that's the case, please, as always, feel free to share this episode with a friend or a colleague. It's one of the ways that our mission is realized when more and more people are having conversations about their wellbeing, about their wellness, about their mental wellness, their physical, their emotional, and even their spiritual well-being. Ultimately, that holistic concept is how we define resilience in the world we're living in right now with stressors of every kind only sort of multiplying in magnitude, whether it's the economy, whether it's politics, whether it's life at home and what's happening in and among our family members, whether it's dealing with the holidays or dealing with any number of other things that just that can trigger us. We are living in a time of great anger, it seems. And it's, in some ways, even something that we're getting— that people are getting entertainment value out of. Angertainment is, I think, the phrase that was coined a few months back to describe that, where we're seeing people enrage and watching videos on YouTube and YouTube channels coming out that just focus on seeing folks enrage, whether they're on an airplane or in a car or in the supermarket or elsewhere. And the underlying cause of a lot of that is just fear. It's fear that is born out of sort of a confluence of things and a level of uncertainty that we probably have not dealt with in this quantity in our lives. At least I haven't. So this was a great conversation to talk about a lot of those things. And again, we'd love it if you'd leave a comment. You can go to adamarkel.com/comment. To leave a comment, or I should say adamarkel.com/podcast to leave a comment. We thank you for that. And as always, if you want to find out just where you are on your own holistic journey toward more coherence, toward more resilience, you can simply go to rankmyresilience.com, rankmyresilience.com, and in 3 minutes with complete clarity, you will learn a little bit more about how resilient you are. And you will do that, I think, in a way that sets the table for moving forward in a world that will probably only become that much more uncertain as we move forward. And of course, it's entirely complimentary, so enjoy that as well. Thanks again.

Thanks for listening. We hope you now have even more tools and greater insights to build resilience and become change-proof. Remember to leave a review on on Apple Podcasts, and you may be featured in an upcoming episode. For more resilience tips and strategies, including support for building change-proof teams, visit adammarkel.com. To get your own free resilience assessment, go to rankmyresilience.com.