Embracing The Creative Self With Katie Arnold

I think more than anything, I'm an artist. And as a writer and an athlete, both of those fall into the larger umbrella of artist. And sport and endurance have always been a creative expression for me, as well as my writing. And I more and more think of myself as an artist, which is sort of the overarching, you know, word that contains these multifaceted parts of myself that seem very different, you know, a writer and an author and a competitive athlete, but they're really not very different at all. It falls under this umbrella, this kind of identity that I feel more and more strongly as an artist.

Yeah, that really resonates with me. I hear that and I think to myself, where else in our pursuits— maybe not everybody's a writer and not everybody's an athlete, not everybody's a speaker or a presenter or what have you. But where is it that the work that we do in the world or whatever we do in the world is an art form? Well, where do we— where can it be that way? Does anything come up for you when I sort of—

Yeah. I mean, I think that we are all artists because we all have this very unique form of personal expression that in this age of imitation and sort of idolizing and kind of seeing everything projected in large screen for us to sort of want to imitate, we lose sight of that, that we're all uniquely ourselves and have our own artistic and true expression. That really, that is our job in the world is to put that forth. And social media is so much about what other people are doing and so much about comparing yourself and comparisons. And but I think the deepest work that any of us can do is to really put our true selves forward through whatever expression we have, whether we're artists or entrepreneurs or athletes or all of the above. Only we can do what we do individually, and no one can do it quite like you. And so I think that message gets lost when we're sort of looking at everyone and wishing we were them. Flip it and be like, what do I have to offer? And I just think that's where we're all— where every single one of us is an artist, even if we paint to paper.

I really hope you're enjoying this episode of the Change Proof Podcast. If you've not yet gone out and gotten your own copy of Change Proof, it's not too late. You can get your copy right now by going to changeproof.com and not only getting the book and all the bonuses there, but getting access to our proprietary resilience assessment tool. It'll just take you 3 minutes to do, and it's something that will really help you to utilize the book even more effectively to create practices and rituals and habits That will increase your mental, emotional, physical, and even spiritual resilience for the long term. Again, go to changeproof.com to get your copy today. And as my kids would've said when they were really little, or they did say when they were little, they can be messy painters. Like, the— to be a messy painter, to be an artist doesn't mean that you are superhuman. In fact, you're just human, and it doesn't mean that you're perfect. Yeah. You're quite imperfect. And maybe there's some sense that when you're doing what you might think of as non-artistic work, the stuff of daily living, that somehow or another you think that you've got to do it in a different way, that somehow or another— when I think about art, I think about impeccability. I don't think about perfection. But impeccability, what comes up for you when I create that or just sort of make that statement?

Impeccability. I certainly don't think about perfection because in my work, both as a creative person and as an athlete, perfection is never the goal. Rather, I'm striving for the truth and kind of an honest expression of who I am. And so some days, as a writer and as a runner, that's really hard. The body hurts. The mind is sluggish. And rather than chalk that up to a failure or a bad day, it's— I guess that's the Zen part of me meeting myself where I am, right? And that's just part of the process. Oh, today you're here. Today it feels hard. Tomorrow might feel easy. You know, yesterday I did a long bike ride. I felt like I had a tailwind in both directions. Like, those days are great, right, when we have those. But just because we have a bad day or string of bad days or messy or, you know, forgetful or irresponsible to sort of the humdrum stuff we have to take care of and instead where we kind of pulled more into our art. Like, all of that is the creative process. Like, nothing is left out of that, right? So the creative process includes the good days, the bad days, the messy days, you know, every day, everything. And I think that's just because I'm a writer too. I see it this way. Everything is material, right? So even a, you know, a terrible day or bad outcome— I don't even really think of even sport in terms of failing or loss, but a challenging day is material, right? It moves the mark for yourself. You learn more about yourself. You learn more about your process from those hard days. And so, yeah, I don't really ever even think of failure as a thing, if that makes sense.

It makes sense.

Everything— yeah, everything is growth.

So in that artistic process, people are probably— I think whether they lean into themselves as artists or they are artists or they don't fully— can't yet sort of see themselves that way or feel that way about themselves. I think we get the fact that that's— there's a process involved in accomplishing something, whether it's to run a mile in a certain time, to run against other people and succeed in, in that competition, whatever the thing might be, or to conclude a book, to start one and actually finish one, whether it's to start reading one and finish the one you're reading, or it's to start writing one, etcetera. there's a process, we can get that. I think it's maybe not readily as accessible to see your daily life or the things you do at work or the things you do just in taking care of your family or in other pursuits as a process. So I'm curious if we're going to ask people to maybe build that bridge between those things, to be able to see themselves as artists, to see the world as a sort of a canvas for their expression. Because I so love the way you put that out there, that really paraphrasing, your art is a form of— honest expression.

Yeah.

So that your true self can put your true self forward.

Yeah.

Just love that language. And if somebody was to say, well, okay. Now I'd love to do that, not just, you know, sort of figurative sense, but literally to be able to adopt that mindset. I wanna ask you about failure. I wanna ask you about forgiveness because I think a lot of people have difficulty letting go, not doing it perfectly, or making actual, you know, mistakes, errors in judgment, poor decisions. You know, where things just not working out or somebody besting them for a job or for something. Right. How do you forgive yourself as an artist when you have a day when you've got a little, you know, you're a little foggy, like you're a little sluggish, like you just wake up, maybe you're in a pissed off mood, and that just translates into a lack of creative flow.

Yeah.

Like, how do you forgive yourself and move on and get to that next spot better?

Well, a couple of things. Literally, I do move. I move my body. So most days I start with some kind of physical practice, and it's always every possible circumstance it will be outside. So I'm out in nature, in fresh air, moving, whether that's riding my bike, walking the dog, cruising around on my town bike. It's not always like training. Also, I don't think of my movement and my preparation for ultramarathons and the like as training. I think of it as Like being alive and living. And so if I do wake up in a funk or I do something or procrastinate on something that makes me feel badly about myself, oftentimes I will— yeah, I'll just start the day by moving and getting into my body. And when I'm in my body, like, I'm much closer to a state of forgiveness because our body is always calling the shots. And, you know, we like to think we can override what our body's capable of with our minds, and our minds are incredibly strong, but our bodies are the truth tellers, right? And they're— on any given day, you could feel great, have tight Achilles, you could have heavy legs, whatnot. And so being in your body, you have to come to it with a state of compassion and be willing to have forgiveness because the body's not always at its best, even when we're elite athletes and training or preparing with rigor and commitment. And so I think by being in our bodies, that's just a natural way to Tap into our inner compassion. It's like— and that takes practice. Honestly, it is like a daily practice. Instead of being like, body, you suck. Why are you so slow today? And we all have that dialogue, right? But to then be able to catch ourselves in it and say, oh, God, I must just be tired today, or I must be— I didn't get enough to eat yesterday. Or like I was just mentioning that ride yesterday I did, like, with the tailwind in both directions. Sounds sort of magical thinking, but actually, when I really thought about it, I was like, Oh, that's because I took the day before off. I had a full rest day. And our body needs that. And so being in our body puts us closer to that state of compassion, I think, because we're not just overthinking and sort of criticizing ourselves all the time. We're actually living in human bodies that have vulnerabilities. So that's one way I face it. And the other way is just as a writer, I think, which is that the mistakes and errors in judgment as a writer, those are really good parts of the story. I've been a journalist for 30 years, and those are what make the story. So, if everything were smooth sailing and just inward up progression, that wouldn't be that great of a story. So, I think I'm just naturally receptive to that because I know a good story when I see one, and they always have the dips.

So, you know, maybe it's like, you know, a good story when you're living one.

Definitely.

And by that, I mean, like, when you're caught up in your own drama as opposed to it becoming this spiraling thing, because we know what it's like when we do kind of get sucked up in that vortex of feeling—

Oh, it's the worst.

—shitty or whatever. We just don't feel good. We're angry. We're feeling like, oh, I can't get something I want.

Right.

Or get something done or whatever it might— you know, and then just sort of perpetuates more of the same. This is a pretty good drama right now. I set out today to do X. Like, for you, it's 500 words today, right?

Yeah.

And let's say you didn't get your 500 words written. And you had said to me before we even started the recording, it's very— It's not like you to sort of set a commitment like, not arbitrarily, but just to say, hey, I'm gonna write 500 words today. Yeah. Today, tomorrow, and the next day. Talk to me a little bit about that because if you set that commitment and you don't meet that commitment, how do you speak to yourself? And I mean, look, it's great for people to hear sort of like the be kind to yourself stuff.

Mm-hmm.

But I also, I mean, I have a son who, my wife and I, we have 4 kids, 3 daughters and a son. So now, you know, if I said one of my daughters, you wouldn't know which one. Yeah. But now I've already called out my son when I say this. But he has a hard time being kind to himself.

Yeah.

He said that to me. He says he can be compassionate with other people. He can be forgiving and give other people sort of the benefit of the doubt. When it comes to himself, he's pretty harsh. And I love the fact that he shared that with me. But as—

That's great awareness. But I do think it's true. Yeah. I think that he's probably much more the norm. Right? And we all have periods of time where we speak to ourselves harshly. Like, I'm definitely included in that. But I think what comes to mind, right, when I heard you talking about your son is that it's not like there's not a point you get to and all of a sudden, like, you only say kind words to yourself. It's a daily practice. And so it's a continuum, right? And so maybe 10 years ago, I was on, like, the very beginning of the spectrum of, like, speaking kindly and being the champion I needed for myself. And now I'm sort of a little bit farther down. Yeah. The path, but it's ongoing and certain things will come up that sting, you know, a little bit more than others. And you can kind of get caught into that negative self-talk spiral. But then if I can step away, and by stepping away, I mean either like going and doing something in my body or writing in my journal, having a little bit of distance between me and the disappointing event, I can start to see with more nuance, okay, maybe this is actually an opportunity. Maybe this is sort of an inflection point in a story I'm writing. Maybe this is an opportunity to see something from a different perspective. So it's usually when I feel that sticky shame, it's now I'm enough along in my practice to know that's usually a signal that I can take a different view. Right. And I could see something a little bit like I can— I'm not so stuck in my fixed thinking. That like I'll wallow in the shame cyclone for many days, which I used to do. It could be days. A matter of hours or less where it's like, oh, that's my cue. Like, I feel terrible. Like, how could I see this differently? Like, what else might be true?

Exactly.

And I'll ask myself those things.

The idea that it's not that it won't show up again, it's that the cycle is shorter. I'm speaking for myself.

Yeah, absolutely. That's a really good way to put it. The cycle is shorter. It will repeat itself. It will show itself again in some forms, but hopefully the space between the times it shows up and then the duration of how long it lasts— the space between gets longer and the duration gets shorter so that you are just more nimble and less likely to get swallowed up into this longer pattern of getting down on yourself. And then of course, we all know when we're down on ourselves, like, our energy goes through the floor. It's harder to take initiative, and then it's harder to say kind things to ourselves. So it's just a negative feedback loop. Whereas when we are talking kindly and seeing mistakes and missteps as opportunities, as inflection points, as sort of springboards into growth, we are more able to receive them and say, okay, what can I learn? And then move on.

And even like we were saying earlier, perhaps like the drama of our own lives, you know? Yeah. Like, all right, I'm right in the middle of my own little story, right? Yes. My— what you call it? Shame cyclone. Shame

cyclone. Exactly.

Like, I'm caught up in my own shame cyclone right now. And to be able to have that self-awareness to see it.

Yeah.

In the book I wrote more recently called Change Proof, we talk about the power of a pause, the pause, ask, choose. Yeah. But just on the pause side of things, the pause to be able to actually see it objectively, even in the midst of it, to be like, okay, I am caught in this now, as opposed to it's something that's outside of ourselves. It's within. And the— Absolutely. Solution is always within. The control is always within. And I'm a bit of a control— not a bit. I am a control freak. And there's so little that we actually do control. No. But that is something we have absolute control over. And in that moment, it doesn't change the thing. It doesn't change necessarily change our energy, although I can feel a shift in energy when I laugh, when I can laugh at myself. Yeah.

Oh, yeah.

Or I can see something from that more objective viewpoint, more truthful viewpoint, even that I'm having a bad day. This is the drama.

Right.

My life at this moment. But it's not like, this is not the end of the story. This is just—

This is just maybe like a funny little paragraph, right?

Yeah.

I mean, I will say too that humor is so important. And as I write in my book, Brief Flashings in the Phenomenal World, like, humor is one of the things that really got my husband and me through this sort of trauma of we had this terrible wilderness accident and kind of my body My body was broken, my spirit, our marriage was very much, pun intended, on the rocks. And— but for us to be able to return to that humor, I knew that we would always be able to keep going because we had that. And humor does create that wedge in the story where it's like, oh, it suddenly separates us from the thing. And we are not the failure. We are act— Yeah. We're characters in a bigger play. And we're coming home from this river trip. In Idaho where I'd had this bad accident and I can't walk. And my husband, we stop at a gas station on the Navajo Nation and my husband has to help me in because I can't walk and have been on the wilderness, on the river for 6 days with a broken leg without actually knowing it's broken, but I'm badly injured and he's carrying me in and I catch sight of our reflection in like the, the Coke fridge, the reflection of that. And we just look absolutely like disheveled. We haven't brushed our hair in days. I'm still in my wet bathing suit. We're in our river clothes. And in that moment, I saw us as these characters. And I was like, oh my gosh, this is funny. This is the moment I'm going to remember. Even with all the trauma and the physical and emotional pain of the accident, I was able to separate from it in that moment. And I kind of filed it away. And I was like, I know this is what I'm going to remember, is seeing ourselves as separate and— Yeah. And that, that was a beautiful moment that I have always remembered. So to bring humor—

It's so funny, like, the idea just that— so for me with that story, I have a broken leg. I have a broken leg. Right now. That it's like that you and I have that in common. It's interesting, a looking back at it moment where there was sort of— I mean, there are a lot of options when something goes sideways in your life, whether it's sort of a physical thing like we're talking about. or it's something else. And for me, I was in Mexico. I was with my wife. It was the last day of our vacation. I was doing what I've been known to do in the past, which is sort of to push the limits, meaning trying to suck the marrow out of the day. Yeah. You know, like, leave nothing undone.

Yeah.

And I got just slammed. And I'm a waterman. Like, my whole life I've been in the water. Yeah. And I was a lifeguard and whatever. Right. But, like, I love the water. The water is my friend. And—

Yeah.

The ocean is my friend. And I respect the ocean. That's— you know, I really have deep respect for the dangers as well as the beauty, etcetera. But in this particular moment, the ocean just reared up. I mean, it was literally a rogue wave. I'm not even making that

up.

And

it was like, hey, we're gonna— you— we love you, you love us, but let's have, like, a reality check for a moment. We're in charge.

Exactly. Picked up, slammed down, and broke— like, snapped my leg back. Knew it was, like, all messed up. And in that moment, as I'm literally being My wife is dragging me out of the surf so I don't get, like, drowned by the next giant thing. Yeah. And I'm lying there on the sand as she went to go get help. I consciously just remember that having that moment to pause to ask, how do I wanna experience this? Yeah. I know this sounds weird, and that's why when you were, you kinda walking with your husband's assistance, there was a moment for you to ask, if not consciously, but some, some inner inside going, You know, how do I wanna actually experience this moment in my life? Do, is it a tragedy? Is it, what is it? Yeah.

What story do I wanna tell of it? And believe me, it was a tragedy for many months. I came home, I had been river and our accident happened on the first day of a 6-day trip and we decided we would not evacuate again. I didn't know it was broken. I knew I was very badly injured, but we were in the remote wilderness and so we decide to stay on the river. And that becomes this sort of Zen practice in deep concentration and just being exactly where I was in each moment. Because it was too frightening to think about all the rapids that lay downstream that we would have to get through in order to get to safety. So I'm in this hyper meditative state, a state of shock really. And so to come off the river, yes, is to come into safety, but it's also— I have this realization as we're finally getting off the river safely that actually, like, the river, though it had been really hard on us and challenged us in ways we couldn't have imagined, it was also, as all rivers and water is, like, kind of a safety, right? It had sheltered us as canyons do. And like you, you spend a lot of time on the ocean, it sounds like. I'm very much a river in the canyons, and canyons do provide this shelter. And I had this feeling as we were coming out that the river had been a safe place, and now we are coming into the hardest part. And it was true, right? That kind of awareness. I had to get surgery, and there was commenced a long healing period where not only did I have to heal my body, but I had to heal emotionally because I'd been told that I should never run again. And I was a competitive, elite-level ultra runner. And so that moment in the gas station did not make everything better, right? Because there was really difficult times following. But it was something I could stick in my back pocket and kind of pull out just from a little rock that you pull out from time to time. Yeah. Yeah. Like you touch and you're just like, oh, right. I think there will be someday when I can look back and remember that moment in the gas gas station and how, like, just messed up we looked and how messed up we were. Right. And be able to remember that with even maybe some— definitely some compassion and maybe even some fondness. And so, yeah, it was just something to hold in the back part of my mind.

Definitely not be a truthful telling.

No, no.

Right. But I will say, for me, a lot of not pleasant things that occurred as a result of that, including missing a trip to Great Britain to one— our youngest daughter who was at college, and her professor wanted me to come in and do a book reading and thing with the class. And I was looking forward to that. I didn't get to make that trip because of this thing happening. So there were, like you said, there was a shit show that followed. But in that moment, for me, it wasn't the humor. I was just struck by the fact that for you, it was that sort of bizarre, like, looking at yourself in that bizarre sort of fluorescent

light

of, like,

you know, a Conoco station.

Like when you walk into the carnival And it's like that weird mirror thing. And you go, who is that? It's the mangled version.

Yes. Like, yes. Like the grubbiest versions of us. For me, but it's also the truest versions. We are, you know, we're outdoors people. We are. We do, you know, we're always coming off rivers, not usually so broken.

Well, I mean, the water, I'm getting a bunch of things I wanna circle into a few areas that we, while we have time. I mean, for me it was gratitude. So in that moment when I was laying on the beach, I'll just close the loop on that. I wasn't finding humor in that moment because frankly, it just didn't feel humorous. But what did strike me immediately, and this is no BS, this is the actual fact of it, when my wife went and ran to get help and I said to myself, well, how do I wanna experience this right now? I really felt grateful that the ocean had been kind enough not to kill me or paralyze me, which easily could have happened based on the fact that there were rocks. This wave was enormous. Mm-hmm. Really gotten prone. I had my glasses on. I had no intention of swimming. I went in to cool off as we would take this final walk before going back to our room. So I really got slapped. Like, it was a moment that nature, that the universe said, I'm gonna get your attention now for a good reason. And I was grateful for it. I literally decided that how I wanted to experience this moment was that I was just grateful for the mercy, honestly, and for the lessons that were about to be imparted to me.

Exactly. As all injuries do. Right? Oh,

my God. They do. So I'm just like, all right, here we go again, even because it's not the first time I've needed to learn a lesson about not pushing or, you know, just having a sort of a less of a sort of exacting—

Like a striving, less of like a pushing.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I, I relate to that. And sucking everything out of some.

That's like kind of a scarcity mindset too, of like, I gotta get it all. And I only say that I am like you. I'm like a doer. I'm an experiencer. I love to, like, go full send. just a curious human. I want to experience it all. But I think for me, the benefit of this accident was really a wake-up call, like you were saying, like all accidents are, to stop consuming so much of that and to be more receiving. Right? So stop just grabbing it and needing it and striving and be more open to letting it unfold. And for me, in the wake of my accident and my healing, I really turned more deeply towards Zen practice. And I'd been dabbling in it since the death of my father, and I was really drawn to Zen, not as a religion or a formal doctrine or dogma, but as like a way of being. And so, it just always resonated with me. And so, after my accident is when I began to like study— it's too rigid a word— like absorb it and let it penetrate me and sort of the lessons, one of which is like no gaining idea. Like, we're not sitting in meditation or doing X or Y to gain something, right? Like, and that's kind of that That mindset, I think we both have. That's right. It's like, I'm going to get it. I'm going to gain and I'm going to change.

I'm going to take.

Yeah, I'm going to take. And I think that really is an overarching, obviously, sort of structure in a lot of how we live, both in business and in sport and the outdoors. It's like we want to take stuff. So, Zen has really transformed not only the way I run, but just the way I live in terms of like, it's not a passive way of being. People think Zen is so laid back. It's actually the opposite. It's quite rigorous to live this way. way, which is just hyper-present and like making full true effort with your complete spirit in each moment, right? So, it doesn't mean just like wishy-washy through life. It's like showing up each moment as your true self, right, will take you where you want to go. But if you lead from that end result, you're always well ahead of yourself into the future, into this area that none of us can control. The only thing we can control is in this moment, I'm going to show up fully. Right now in this moment with you, right? I'm gonna then, whatever the next thing is I do today, I'm gonna show up fully. And so that's a rigorous practice.

So to me, the word impeccability started by talking about that distinction between impeccability and perfectionism. You just defined it.

Yeah. I think of it as meticulous. Like, it's never perfect, but it's really granular. It's like making true, honest effort in each moment.

It's full, true effort. This is what you said a moment ago, full, true effort with your complete spirit.

Yeah.

Yeah. To me, that's what being impeccable is. It's not about being perfect.

Mm-hmm.

But when you think about where it is that you fall off, that we fall off in our pursuits of things or in our just living, how we live, whether it's how we speak to people or think about people or how we interact with the world around us, with nature, with animals, in our, again, in our work, in our pursuits at work, etcetera. We're to be anything, at least that I would continue to, like you say, vigilantly I don't want to use the word strive, but to practice

endeavor. Yeah, practice right

in a consistent way. It's what you said. It's being able to really provide true effort from your complete spirit without regard for outcome. We know that when you try to think about, think your way through a basketball, like a shot at the free throw line, you botch it. Or anything, you botch it, right? You can't be an artist and be in your head at the same time and be effective.

It comes from your body, right?

Yes. And your body. Yeah.

And so I totally agree that, like, when we are— I mean, which isn't to say you don't prepare. It's not like you just show up like, whatever, right? It— for me, when I am most likely to be in flow state, and I write about this in Brief Flashings in The Phenomenal World, about when I ran the Leadville 100 I had done the work, right? Like, to be most likely to be in flow state is you have to come prepared. Yes. So it's like you show up daily with that great true determination in expressing yourself to the best that you can. And you do that every day, and that's preparation. And so you show up feeling like you have prepared, which also reflects a deep humility, right? Which is so important. Like, I'm humble in the face of mountains, just like you are with oceans, right? Like, the mountains call the shots. And so I am not more powerful than the mountains. I'm actually far less powerful. But if I can come with that kind of humility, I can tap into the mountain's energy and I can ride that energy. I'm sure that's how it feels surfing. And then the third point is gratitude, like you expressed on the beach, which is so knowing that you have come with humility and preparation, you can feel this enormous gratitude for the path you've taken, for this pure expression you've made. In the world that's unlike anyone else's, even someone who does exactly what you do, no one can do it quite like you. And so, for me, that meant showing up at the start of this 100-mile race, just overwhelmed with gratitude, humbled, and yet feeling like it was my time. I was ready. I didn't know for what because I had not been holding tightly to any kind of results at all. And that's what freed me, I think, to have this like just absolutely magical day where the outcome far, far exceeded what I could have ever imagined. So, our minds and our imaginations, thank goodness. I mean, they're wild. And as a writer, I need my big imagination. But still, what the universe is capable of delivering is far bigger and vaster than our imaginations can imagine. And thank goodness, right? Because, you know, then things can happen that we never thought possible. And so, that's kind of those 3 pillars for sure, preparation. And when I feel— when I come into something prepared, whether it's like an interview as a journalist that I'm doing or— a race or whatever, if I'm prepared, then when I get to the starting line or to the beginning of the endeavor, it's like I can magically switch this button. I feel like it's on my arm, which is to receive. And I just switch the button to receive. And now I'm just like, okay, show me. Whatever happens, I'm receiving. And so no good, no bad. That's why I don't ever use the word failure, because no matter what, even if you're failing, you're still receiving. You're receiving information, lessons, teachings. And so being in that state of receiving is incredibly open and powerful, and nothing can go wrong from that place because everything is material and everything is a teacher.

It's feedback.

It's all feedback. Yeah.

And what you do with feedback again becomes your choice. There's nobody that gets to choose what you do with feedback, whether it's—

And how you write that story of your feedback. Right? Like, I had a radically different race after Leadville where I I had the exact opposite result, if you can call it that. I finished dead last in a 100-mile race. I'd had to walk the last 50 miles because I had this— I pulled something at the back of my knee and I just kept going. And that's an interesting story in and of itself. But when I finished and I was the last runner in this sort of faster elite wave of runners, dead last, and when I finished, the next morning I woke up with this incredible sense of euphoria. Fatigue, disbelief that I had done it, and gratitude for everyone who had helped me along the way. And I realized, I was like, I recognize this feeling. And then I was like, this is the exact feeling I had after winning the biggest ultramarathon in the country. Interesting. There's no difference. There was no difference. Result totally independent of the results. You know, one was like the biggest win and the other was like literally dead last. And it was the same. It was like one was no better than the other. And, you know, someone could tell me, oh, there's no difference between winning and losing. It's so trite, right? You're like, that is such a cliché and such BS. It's true. And I have learned so much from that race that I quote unquote lost, and it would never in my mind chalk up to a loss or a failure.

Right.

It was such a gift.

You were able to be neutral. Yeah.

A

lot of ways to

I just received it. I was like, wow, this is not the race I wanted or expected. And yet, I wouldn't trade it because it's an experience I'd never had before. And so, that's kind of what we were a little bit talking about, Zen and letting go of gaining idea. And another big idea in Zen is this idea of beginner's mind, coming at something fresh as a beginner, letting go of kind of our concept that we know what we're doing or the sense of mastery, which is so valued in this country and in our culture. Like, we all have to be experts. Yeah. experts on this hack or that hack, have the 10 tips for X or Y. And actually, in Zen, not knowing is a higher state of consciousness, right? So being able to be in that state of not knowing and open to all possibilities. Again, when you're open to all possibilities, there's so many, you know, possibilities that can happen.

Parts to that, right? Because the, the not knowing piece is troublesome for people who can't can't also be open to what they will learn as a result of not knowing. The humility is missing. Right. When you don't know something, you're not exactly— I don't know, in a— because our company does a lot of work with organizations at their culture, at the level of how they create and manifest culture. And often it's the humility is— doesn't, doesn't get a seat at the table because people are paid to know. Or figure out what you don't know.

Right.

And they think they can't—

yeah, they think they can't show this not knowing or uncertainty. But actually, there's such power in uncertainty because, you know, as the quote goes, in the beginner's mind, there are many possibilities, and in the expert's mind, there are few. And wouldn't you rather live in a world with many possibilities, right? Especially now in the climate we're in, like, literally the climate and metaphorically the climate. It's really easy to go down that doom cycle right into that spiral of like, this is the only thing that will happen. Truth is, none of us know. And it's scary. We're not taught to embrace that. Yeah. And that itself is also a practice of sort of remembering that the only constant in life is change, like incessant change. And we're just energy moving and it's always changing. And so, we don't know what's coming. But we think we do. We like to think we do.

So the book is called Brief Flashings in the Phenomenal World: Zen and the Art of Running Free. And it came out in April. So I'm gonna certainly recommend folks—

Yes.

Get to the digital bookstore or the actual physical bookstore.

Physical bookstore. Support your local bookstore.

Yeah. No kidding. Right? I wanna ask you 1 or 2 quick questions as book— as we're gonna wrap things up here. And when it comes to— so I wanna understand your take on resilience and what it is that you do to create greater resiliency in the face of, as you said, constant and never-ending uncertainty. Yeah. That's, to me, the, the one constant. It is a riddle, like so many paradoxes that we live with in the natural world, that the only constant, the greatest constant, is change. Yeah. So that being the case, and people living in this constant state of what's gonna happen next, whether it's environmentally, politically, socially, at work, wherever.

Right.

How have you worked on your resiliency in the face of that changing environment?

Resiliency to me means exactly that. It's keeping going in the face of uncertainty despite the outcome being unknown, right? And so for me, it's a practice in just showing up every day, enduring things that are discomfort, you know, that are uncomfortable, enduring uncertainty and putting myself in positions where those things I'm regularly practicing them. And so, that's why, you know, I think ultra-endurance sports for me are a great place to practice because when you go out for a 100-mile run or race or, you know, a 50-mile bike ride, you can control for certain scenarios, but there's always going to be something, especially when you're in the mountains or in terrain that you can't predict. And so, for me, I would say ultra running has been my greatest teacher in resilience because you literally get knocked down. As I did in the river, and you get up and you keep going. And so that practice, you know, people are always like, why are you training for another 100-mile race? And it's because I keep— I need more and more lessons and I, I need to build my tolerance ever more for uncertainty and discomfort. And it doesn't mean going to extremes every day, right? We find that like parenting, I'm sure, teaches you about how to be resilient in the face of uncertainty and constant change. Yeah. My kids are teenagers. They're constantly changing. It's a beautiful journey, and you have to have a lot of resilience because you get knocked down a lot and you just keep going, and it's not always going to feel good. And I think that's really raising my children that way, as we have outside in nature, because I'm trying to give them the biggest opportunities to learn this themselves, is that we're like, there's always a low point, you know, on every trip or expedition or hike we do, every long outing. I say there's a low point when it might be just below the summit and it gets windy or they're tired. And when there is a low point and people can, you know, all your listeners can do this too, like check in with yourself. Am I safe? Right? And so, in the case of the mountain, it's like, is the weather clear? Is a storm coming in? If not, we can keep going. Do I have what I need to take care of myself? Do I have food? Do I have a jacket? Is my body okay? Right? Am I physically strong enough to keep going? And if all the answers line up, We keep going, and we know that the low point will pass. And then sure enough, it'll bring us to a high point. It's a never-ending cycle. And so to be able to understand that the low points are just that and that if you do keep going, you will get through them.

Yeah. That presence that you spoke about. And I think this is where the value of whether it's meditation or Zen practice or simply being able to become— be self-aware the way my son was Yeah. Really truthful about himself, that, that self-awareness creates a world of possibilities that exist. They always exist sort of parallelly to the lack of possibilities simultaneously that our minds create for ourselves, that we box ourselves into thinking things have to be just one way.

It's like that trick mirror you were talking about, you know, in, like, the gas station. It was like behind that mirror, actually, there's, like, endless possibilities. But oftentimes, we only see the one reflected back that we think is us. And it's like, what is behind that mirror? Like, there's like a whole, like, limitless, unlimited world of possibility. And it seems like a more fruitful place and hopeful place to live in that world. And I don't think it's delusional. I don't think that it's like head in the sand.

No.

You know, it's very real. It's like it's meeting the world as it is in this moment. And that's what Zen is. It's just like, okay, I'm facing it now, and it doesn't look pretty. But I'm gonna stick with it.

Yep. Again, you're either a person who— I mean, there's a lot of ways to oversimplify things for sure. So I might be guilty of that when I say this. But I think you can look at the world as an outside-in endeavor or framework, or you can see it as an inside-out one. And to me, I think in any spiritual teaching, regardless of the arena, the teacher, there's one common denominator in all In every religion, in all of it. And that is that it's— we change things in our lives. We experience life from the inside out.

Yeah.

We try to change outer conditions as a means to get what we want. We're doing what I did in the surf. We're setting ourselves up for a fall and for some tough lessons. I was truly grateful because the lesson I got to learn was pretty light, as it turned out. I wore a brace on my knee for a couple of months. I went to my talks with the brace. I got a great, like, to tell the story of it.

Yeah. Right.

It's like it could have gone otherwise. And we don't heed some of those really important life lessons, and not just from our own lives, but from the lives of so many people around us who have lived before. If we just understand we create from the inside out.

Yeah, absolutely.

Right.

Our minds are so powerful. And that's what I learned in the wake of my accident, is I could see it this way, or I could see it as a chance to reinvent and deepen my relationship with running. And by extension, it extended to everything— life, marriage, my writing. Everything got deeper as a result. So, yeah, it's pretty powerful. But it doesn't make it easier in the moment. It's just it gives you a little bit of separation to see, like, okay, like everything, this too shall pass. I'm going to sort of decide how I want the narrative to go, what story I'm going to tell about this.

Totally. Katie, I just have so loved the time we've had together. Yeah, same. I know you had to change directly. Yeah. A little change of location. Yeah. So, you get proper internet and it's kind of raining on your island.

Yeah. I'm on an island in Canada. It's great. I'm in the happy, simple place where the daily rhythms, and this is kind of my happiest place, is like, are very simple. You know, it's wake, you're— we live by the weather, the wind, the water. I paddle or run or ride my bike, and then I write and parent my children. But it's simplicity is something that I think we're losing. At the cost of our imaginations and our spirits. We're all so busy, right, these days. It's just go, go, go.

Well, I wanna come back to the— as I say, we sign off from this episode. I just wanna come back to something you said at the very beginning as a way to, I think, get to a place of action, point of what can we do with this? You were talking about being an artist, and we were having a conversation at the start about how life just can be an art form. We can choose to be artists, whether we're writers or we're anything. It doesn't matter what you do. You can do it in a way that is artistic. And I think if you approach it, if a person says, hey, where can I apply this intentionality and this presence, this full, true effort with your complete spirit?

Yeah.

With anything you do, whether it's, again, spending that time with your kid or it's with a person that you meet in the grocery store,

but

wherever it is that you're interacting with the world outside of you, if you can be there with your full true spirit, your presence, there's— it's art because what—

No one else can be you. And yeah, right. And that's what I mean. Like, honestly, I'd never— like, today was the first time when you asked me, like, that word earlier. Like, I have never— I've always thought of what I do as creative expression, as true expression, right? Running and writing and all the things. But I've never, like, outwardly used that word artist.

Yeah.

Do you hear that phone? I've never used the word artist. And, and so, but it is that it's like, it boils down to this very simple thing of, like, just be real in every moment. That is your expression. Like, when you're in the grocery store, if you're distracted on your phone or if you are talking to your kid, right, there's something between you and the experience and that person. But when you can just show up and be real in that moment, that is magic. I mean, the title of my book is called Brief Flashings in the Phenomenal World. That's a flashing. You're your true self, even with someone you'll never see again, over something completely mundane like a loaf of bread. You leave an interaction like that, I would guess you'd feel the same way, like alive, a little bit more alive than when you went in. And that is your artist, right? That is your artistic expression. And it doesn't at all have to do with art. Like, you know, I'm one of those people who have, like, I carry some art shame.

Let's not be so literal. Yeah.

Let's not be so literal.

That word, because it's an expression. Exactly. Yeah.

When I'm being real in each moment, I feel completely like my truest self. And honestly, when you just bleed from that place, there's nothing more in the world you actually need to know or do.

What a perfect place to conclude.

Yeah.

Thank you, Katie. Thank you for your expression today. And yeah.

Thank you, Adam. That was great. I really enjoyed it. I love your shirt too.

Thank you for that.

Okay.

Okay. Ciao.

Okay. Take care. Bye.

Outstanding. What a wonderful human being. What a beautiful soul. Katie Arnold. I just absolutely love her story. I can't wait. Actually have not read her book, but I'm gonna get Brief Flashings in the Phenomenal World: Zen and the Art of Running Free. A spiritual guide. To me, it's just a wonderful book for me at the place I'm at in my life. I imagine many of you are gonna think the same, feel the same. And there's so many teachers that come to us in our lives, you know, water, the mountain, the river, Katie herself. There, there's just so many ways that we can learn, assuming we have that beginner's mind. I, I love that she pointed to the fact that Zen is not a passive Pursuit that Zen practice is exacting. It requires vigilance. It's about being committed in many ways to living in a place of presence, to be present, to be humble. And from that beginner's mindset, that humble mindset, all the possibilities are open to us. Whereas from a knowing mindset, an all-knowing, an expert, quote unquote, that mindset, we are limited in our possibilities, more limited. And how we approach each moment of the day and each interaction where we get to express ourselves, and rather than being a taker or looking to exact or extract something from that situation, that person, or that opportunity, to rather be open to receiving. It's different. It's slight. The distinction isn't massive, but I think it's all important whether we're coming from a place of arrogance or we're coming from a place of humility, whether we're coming from a place of wanting to take something as opposed to being open to receiving something and willing to give as well. And that's what our presence is. Our presence is a gift to the world. Whoever, whatever we interact with, in our full expression, when we are in that place where we are providing that true effort, our true effort with our complete spirit, we are being impeccable in the world. And that was what Katie and I— one of the things that Katie and I talked about was that distinction between being impeccable or the opportunity for impeccability versus perfection or perfectionism. And again, it's a nuanced distinction, but I think really powerful and important because it's a guide to us in how we approach a moment. And there's not a whole lot else for us but to live not just in the moment, but from moment to moment. If we can get this moment right, I don't know that there's another responsibility that's greater than that for us. And I don't know that there's another responsibility that's more impactful to us mentally, emotionally, physically, spiritually speaking, than to be putting our full selves into the moment. getting the moment right, that we could do that. We could just do that in the midst of the chaos of the world and everything that's going on outside of us, that we can focus on what is going on inside, what is going on within us, that that is the answer that leads us to some really beautiful, beautiful experiences, beautiful feelings. That is the sum total of our lives or the, the, just the experiences that we have. The way that we feel moment to moment. What else could there possibly be at the end looking back but a calculus of that? And so I hope you enjoyed that conversation. Katie and I, we did. And when we turned off the recording, we're truly grateful for the time we got to spend together and the kinds of things we got to talk about that necessarily everyday sort of business conversations or conversations about performance or achievement or any of that. Just felt truly truthful, felt real, and that just felt great. So we enjoyed ourselves. I hope you've enjoyed us enjoying ourselves and that you enjoyed, because you are part of it. This podcast doesn't exist without you. There's no there there without you being there. So thank you for being there. And thank you for sharing. If you know somebody that would really enjoy this conversation, would vibe on it, please share it with them. It helps us. Of course, it helps us with the algorithms that determine where these podcasts show up and who gets to consume them. So please share it. Please rate it if you can take that moment to provide the 5-star, the whatever stars rating and your feedback. And if you've got comments, questions, anything really that you wanna share with us, you can always go to adamarkel.com/podcast. And leave your comment or question for myself or any guests that I've had, including Katie, in that spot. Also, if you'd love to check out where are you today, how are you feeling in this moment, how resiliently are you interacting with your world, work world, your non-work world, all you need to do is go to rankmyresilience.com, rankmyresilience.com, and 3 minutes is all it takes for you to get your own personalized assessment mentally, emotionally, physically, spiritually speaking. How resilient are you and those around you? Of course, you can share that link with them, members of your team, family members, etcetera. Confidential. Your report will be just for you. Nobody else gets access to it. And it's a great snapshot, a great moment of self-awareness that you can use to build upon to take that next step forward with presence, truth, and hopefully in a way where you're continuing to be open to learning, that place of humility, that beginner's mindset that Katie was talking about. For now anyway, I'll just say again, once you are so important to us, thank you for being a part of our community. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Have a beautiful, beautiful rest of your day. Ciao for now.

Thanks for listening. We hope you now have even more tools and greater insights to build resilience And become change-proof. Remember to leave a review on Apple Podcasts and you may be featured in an upcoming episode. For more resilience tips and strategies, including support for building change-proof teams, visit adammarkel.com. To get your own free resilience assessment, go to rankmyresilience.com.