From Tragedy To Triumph: Habits For Unbreakable Resilience With Dr. Peter Nieman

Yes. 33 years of happy marriage. Thank God.

Yeah. And in the midst of a happy marriage, a tragedy occurred 4 years ago, January 1st. So you talked about your process, but your wife's process in dealing with this and her way of grieving has been different. And we just thought maybe you'd share a little bit about that as well.

Yeah, I think, Adam, when you have to bear the unbearable, of course, because we are very unique human beings, we each and all have our different values, our different beliefs. And I don't want to give advice to anybody. It's not my place. But all I can do is humbly share my own experiences. And what I've experienced is that my wife looks at the situation from a spiritual angle a little bit different from me. In fact, Adam, she has not read this book. She edited some of my books, but never edited or touched this book, Sustained, because she's just not ready to do that kind of thing. And so the message I think that I would really like to share is from my heart is that When you're in partnership with somebody, make sure that you don't rush them in their journey to be resilient, in their journey and their quest to stay strong. Be with them, walk next to them, don't judge them, don't criticize them, and just allow them to move at a pace that works for them. It's a bit like marathon running. You know the pace that you can run and should run to get to the finish line. And if you go any faster than that, you're going to crash and burn. You're going to hit the wall. And so it's all about pacing ourselves and being patient with one another. And my definition of resilience is the ability to endure consistently with patience. To me, that is resilience more than bouncing back. So, uh, thank you for letting me share about my dear wife and my good best friend and the fact that, yeah, we could still be married even if we handle this misfortune in a different manner.

Indeed. Thank you, Peter.

Thank you.

Okay, Peter. So it was fun for me just now to read your bio, and in part because I know you for a number of years and I've read it before, and, and I'm always very impressed by the life that you have led. My question to you, however, is what is one thing that is not a part of your bio, this introduction, that you would love for people to know about you at the beginning of our conversation today?

Well, Adam, I must admit I cheated a little bit because I listened, I'm a fan of your podcast and I know that question was coming, right? So I gave it some thought and I said to myself, there are a number of things, but let me pick one. And that's probably people on the bio is that I was a Dale Carnegie instructor and I taught the Dale Carnegie training program, which was one of the highlights of my life. They say Warren Buffett, you know, the famous Warren Buffett, he has one certificate on his wall. And that's his graduation certificate from Dale Carnegie training. So Lee Iacocca was a graduate of Dale Carnegie, and so I wear a ring, instructor's ring, Dale Carnegie instructor's ring. And yeah, so that's a bit of an unknown in my life. I don't teach.

Hold that up. Hold that ring up again for the people that like are going to be on YouTube checking this out. That's way cool. It's almost like a World Series ring or a Super Bowl ring. I mean, that's a cool World Cup ring.

And that ring goes with me wherever I go, doing all my marathons and daily running. And wherever I go, the ring goes with me. It's like my shadow.

Yeah.

But it actually, to get a bit more serious, it's actually just a physical reminder, Adam, of the basic principles of getting along with human beings, showing respect, and having the confidence to do public speaking and helping other people to become better at not worrying and not having stress. And in keeping with the theme to stay resilient, right? Because we live in a In a world, as you said, that's in an interesting state, and who knows what the future is gonna hold. It's very uncertain times, strange times, actually. So I think, yeah, we do need tools to stay resilient. That's why I'm very excited to talk to you about it today.

Yeah, I couldn't agree more, Peter. We do need tools to stay resilient. And while we're born with some of those tools, I certainly think we might all agree with that. These are nonetheless Tools that we can acquire at, I believe, any age. Yes. And they're vitally important. And I don't think it says anything about a person's inherent value or intelligence or worth that they might need to acquire more of those tools. Dale Carnegie wrote that book probably in the '30s. I don't have a copy handy, but I do have a copy of this book right here. So, again, I'm cheating the people who are just listening a little bit out of the visuals, but I'll describe what I'm holding up. I'm holding up a book called The Snowball, which is a biography of Warren Buffett. Now, as you can see, this is how I read a book. Right? You could take a look. Right? It's like, it's been in the hot tub with me. It's been in the sauna with me. And I'm just gonna look and see. It's about 800 pages there, give or take. And it took me a couple of months to read this thing. But he talks so much in this book about the importance of Dale Carnegie in his life.

Yes.

Because he was a bit of an awkward and still is a bit of an awkward fellow. And,

you know, Absolutely.

social settings, et cetera. So I would love to know, I'd like to get your thoughts on the Dale, because Dale Carnegie, people that are listening to this have never read his book, his seminal book.

Yes.

Yeah. It's sold millions and millions of copies. You should go out and get a copy of that. But I'm asking you, Peter, why, why should people read that book today?

Well, I think, Adam, he basically wrote 3 books. The one of his more famous books, of course, is How to Win Friends and Influence People. And the title is a bit deceptive because it means you want to manipulate people. Some people interpret it as such, and I don't see it like that. I see it more things like basic stuff that's not going to change, like give honest and sincere appreciation. The best way to win an argument is to avoid it. Give people a noble reputation. Remember, a person's name is the sweetest name in every language. Make another person feel important and do it sincerely. Be a good listener. Talk more about other people than yourself. Those things are not going to change. I mean, the wars may come and go, the economy may change, but those are the basic bedrock principles of getting along with people. And relationships, as we know, are so important. Marriages go through ups and downs. My coach, Alan Cohen, a mutual friend of ours, always talks about relationships as being for a reason, a season, or a lifetime. And not all relationships are for a lifetime, unfortunately. But how we relate to people, how we relate to ourselves, determines how resilient we can be. And then as we get tested, In my case, the loss of a child to suicide, it really squeezes you and what's inside comes out. But the other book from Carnegie too that I think would be helpful to people even now is a book that was written in, I believe, 1912, the year the Titanic sank. Now, that's quite a while back, and story always is easy to remember. And in this case, Carnegie went into the library, New York Public Library, And he wanted to see if there were any books on worry because he was a worrier. And he went to the library and he went to the section W-O-R-R-Y, and he was looking. He said there were more books on worms than worry at the time. So he felt he had to write the book, How to Stop Worrying and Start Living. And that book still graces my bookshelf. And I'm a bit not like you. I wouldn't take that book in a bathtub, right? Because I don't want it to get soaked. But it's a great book that I often look at again and again.

What's the title of that book again? Just say it one more time.

How to Stop Worrying and Start Living.

Yeah. I've never read that book. So that's 1912. I would think that there are, if you could get a copy, you might have to pay more than the Amazon price for it.

No. Here's the interesting thing, Adam. The book, I'm an author, you're an author, and probably our books are going to be out of print at some point, right?

Yeah.

And it's in the public domain now. I'm not sure, but I, I know you can still get it on Amazon or wherever you buy books and so on. And yeah, it's a great book for people who worry. God knows sometimes there's things like synchronicity happening. And my hope is there's at least one person listening to our conversation today who is a worrier and who may not have heard about the book because may have, may know about the one about Winning Friends and Influencing People and say, oh, A book on worry. I wanna look that up. Of course, we want these people to read our books too, right, Adam?

Well, I'm a big fan of Emmet Fox. I probably have said that more times than people might care to hear again. But he, he wrote some books back in the day as well. And those books, they can have such an impact in our lives. And as you say, almost like relationships, you read a book for a reason, a season, or a lifetime. There are some books that have been with me almost now for a lifetime, and I expect they will be with me for the rest of my life. I would think that the Carnegie book might be one of those as well.

Yes.

It sounds like it.

Yes. No, in the Jewish tradition, in the Talmud, I think there's a saying, there's a saying that before a man or a woman dies, you have to do 3 things. You have to write a book, plant a tree, and have a child. And each of those 3 things are very symbolic. In terms of touching future generations. So again, it's plant a tree. Suppose, and that was before the environment was a big deal.

Yeah.

The Talmud is old and have a child and write a book. And writing books, of course, takes a lot of work and it's fun. I've done three so far. I just love it. I think we talked about my first book, you and I, called Moving Forward. And then COVID happened, and another book came out, 101 Finish Lines, and that that related to. My quest to do 100 marathons before age 60. And then the latest book I wrote with— this was my hardest book— was about what it was like as a dad and as a pediatrician and as a human being, Adam, to face the loss of a child, the unexpected loss of a child who decided to leave this world by suicide. And so—

Peter, do you mind? Do you mind if we dig into that just a little bit? I'm really glad you brought it up.

And frankly, It'll be my pleasure. I think when we did last talk, Adam, would've been 2020. Ben is my son's name. He passed away on January 1st, 2020, which was before COVID So we just, just marked 4 years anniversary of living life without it, without Ben. I think I said something to you that you picked up on and then repeated to your audience. And I said that when a tragedy hits us, Yeah. We have really 3 choices. We can let it destroy us, define us, or develop us. And you wanted to talk more about the development part, I remember. So yeah, I'd be happy to discuss any of those 3 Ds or whichever direction you want to go. Well, you know what?

Why don't we pick a different D since people can go back in the archives to talk about the development piece of it, but it can destroy us and it can define us and you can do One of those 2 Ds resonate with you this morning?

I think so. There's a Japanese tradition that if a piece of pottery breaks, instead of throwing it out, right, Japanese people glue it together with golden glue and it looks beautiful. The name for that is kintsugi, K-I-N-T-S-U-G-I, kintsugi. And I think if I were to do an elevator talk about the book Sustained that I wrote, It would be just that, that our life got broken when my wife and I discovered our son's body. And yet the pieces have been glued together. And I've learned so much, Adam. I've learned about resilience, about gratitude. I've learned about the importance of morning rituals, the importance of eating healthy, exercising, having role models, having mentors, constantly looking for opportunities to grow and improve. We all know as a medical doctor. I see teenagers who have PTSD, post-traumatic stress syndrome, but there's also what we call post-traumatic growth. And when tough things happen, there's a saying, it can make you bitter or it can make you better. And by the grace of God, I believe that this tragedy that befell us has actually made me better, not bitter. I'm very thankful for that because people say it's one of the worst calamities that can befall any human being. Now, one other thing I made a note here that I wanted to mention is—

Wait, pause there. Can you hold that for one second?

Sure.

So I just, my follow-up is I would love to know how that tragedy has defined you because—

Right.

Yeah.

I can tell you it has not defined me as a victim. And because sometimes when something like this happens, you ask questions like, why me? What did we do wrong? What did we deserve? People in the year ahead, God forbid, may be diagnosed with cancer, will get laid off. Their resilience will be tested in many ways. And there's something about human nature, Adam, that I don't understand, and that is the guilt, the thing about blaming yourself and not having self-compassion and looking for reasons. And sometimes there just are no answers to these things. And then it's very easy to fall into the trap of becoming a victim, blaming your destiny or other people for your situation. And what is interesting for me, Adam, is to discover how many other famous people— not that I'm famous, but famous people who lost children. Mark Twain lost 3 children. Marcus Aurelius lost a child. No, actually, he lost a number of children. He buried his own children. Art Linkletter lost a child. Paul Newman lost a child. A lot of famous people lost children, and that did not define them. And so the neat thing too that I've discovered is that when you go through a tragedy like this, It's good to hang out with people that have had a similar experience. And I have a second family, and I wrote about it in the book Sustained. The first part of the book talks about this family of people who also lost children, and we have become like second family, Adam. And man, there's so much we can talk about today. But I think if you want to stay resilient, I think it's important to have a good group of people you can hang out with.

Absolutely. Yeah. People who

understand you, won't judge you, accept you. encourage you and just, just be there for you when you need them.

So the book is Sustained: A Life Rewritten After Sudden Misfortune. So back just to that question of how it has defined you, I would say from what you've said to me, it has made you better. Not bitter, but better. And that's an odd thing. I just wanna, I wanna put a, take a moment here to sit with that, that when something That is so tragic.

Yes.

And awful. And there's almost, I would say, no words. Having— being a parent myself, I just couldn't imagine finding words for what it would feel like to lose a child under any circumstances. Yes. So for it to make you better seems counterintuitive. It feels counterintuitive. And yet that's what I'm hearing from you, that you are better, not bitter, as a result.

I think so. Here's a quote from the book that I, if I may, I just want to read this. It came from an ancient, ancient philosopher called Asclepius, and he said, he who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep, pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart. And in despair, against our will, will come wisdom by the of awesome grace of God. And that was written thousands of years ago. The thing that he who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep, pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart. And in despair, against our will— this is not what we wanted, but it's what we got— Sure. Against our will, such a catastrophe or calamity befell us. And with that comes wisdom. And why it is so, Adam, I don't know who designed the universe that way, but it is incredibly true that if you have an easy life, You're not going to grow as much as if you have a tough life.

If we had our choice, I think we'd all choose more comfort. We would choose the easier path.

Yeah.

And, and

absolutely,

I think there's nothing wrong or unusual about that. I'm not making a judgment for any of us in regard to that. But sometimes there's a greater force at play that creates this transformation. It's very much a cliché to use this as an analogy, but I mean, it's so easy. It's so on point to look at the way a butterfly emerges, how a butterfly is the net result of excruciating, an excruciating metamorphosis for the lowly caterpillar. So in many ways, I think we are, we are that creature, that caterpillar, maybe not so lowly, but perhaps just divine and perfect as we are. And yet metamorphosis has is in our destiny. It's part of our reason for being, our raison d'être. I mean, it's— and if you resist it, and so many people do resist the metamorphosis, perhaps that's the quiet desperation. I forget who wrote that line. It's been quoted often, of course, that everywhere people lead lives of quiet desperation. I think perhaps that's an element of that quiet desperation, is to know that somehow or another, something you know, that you haven't fulfilled your purpose because on some level you've resisted the metamorphosis, which is painful, as you said.

Yes. And I think, you know, by now we've talked about the role of faith and where we're all coming from. And people confuse faith and spirituality and religion. But I'm just gonna be raw with you. For me, I'm coming from a Christian tradition and it may offend some people, but I think, let me explain. I wanna be like Mr. Rogers, the TV guy, Mr. Rogers, right? That to me is a great example. of being kind, being nice, and treating people with respect and being helpful. And that's the kind of faith-based person I want to be. But I also talk a lot about Buddhism, and sometimes people think I'm a Buddhist, but I'm not. But what you just said, Adam, is sometimes we suffer more because we cling, right? And that's one of the principles of Buddhism is that they call it the second dart or the second arrow. The first arrow is the loss, the The disappointment, then the bad news, the divorce, the cancer diagnosis, the rebellious children, endless list of possibilities. And then we inflict upon ourselves that second arrow where we wish for things to be different when it cannot be. I mean, there are days, Adam, when I walk by my son's bedroom and we left his room just the way it is, haven't touched it 4 years later. I'm not sure if we'll ever do something about that room. Maybe when we sell the house. I don't know. I haven't thought that far. But then I catch myself saying, I wish it could have been different. And then I realize, no, it is never going to be the same again. It's ineffable, and it is what it is. It is so. It cannot be otherwise. And that's one of the problems in life is what they say, what we resist will persist. And so if you resist growth, if you resist pain, if you resist negative things and you always want to be comfortable, Then you're going to suffer. It's just a fact. Yes, life is not fair. Plans change. People disappoint you. And so, like it or not, you just have to adjust to what has happened.

And again, we've been speaking in some of these, sharing some of these statements that people may have heard of. Maybe they haven't. I would imagine some folks have jotted down and written some things, or at least made mental notes of things like that you've shared. for example, the one I've repeated a few times now that you can be bitter or you can be better as a result of something. And it's simplistic, and yet it's also profound. I think another one of those has to do with the word suffering, because I believe that suffering on some level— and again, let's not split hairs about it. We do enough of that these days with the gotcha police out there.

Yeah.

But suffering is optional. That's what I, I like to think of it. We can experience pain and not be in suffering.

Yes.

In my opinion, pain is something that is inevitable.

Mhmm.

Suffering is optional. And that's strictly about your mental outlook around it.

Yes.

And I think that's a, a really powerful distinction that when you apply it, when you're able to bring consciousness to a moment in your life that is difficult, excruciating even, That it can be the difference between how will I emerge from this versus I see no way out. I have no way out. I want to change gears just a little bit because you and I could continue down this road because we are so kindred spirits, us. And I know we can talk about this stuff a long while, but I want to talk about— I want to talk about the running. And in part, I want to do that selfishly. Yeah. Peter, because I've been reading something and it's just the universe is just so, so cagey. So just quirky and such a mystery. And I say universe, but I also, for me, the language is God. I just, I don't have a problem. Not only don't I have a problem, I love God. I mean, it's, I just, I'm not a fan of religion personally. And that's not to bash any religion, not even the one I grew up in. It's just that's not how I'm baked today. I like so many aspects of all of them and the idea that you can integrate wisdom and knowledge and spirituality in so many different ways and not be relegated to one discipline or another. I think it's just, it appeals to me because I'm a bit of an iconoclast and I, I'm not a big rule guy and I, I don't like being hemmed in by, by conventions. So that's just me. People don't have to buy that. But the interesting thing is, for me, I'm reading, I just started reading this book. So we've shared a few book titles today. It's called Shoe Dog. Mhmm. And I had said to you before we started the recording, I wanted to ask you about something. I didn't wanna tell you what it was. I started reading this book, Shoe Dog, which is a pretty recent book. It's a memoir, business memoir by Phil Knight, who is the founder of the company. Everybody.

Nike.

Yeah. Exactly. Which, when it was founded, when he started it in 1962 or '63, Thereabouts. It was called Blue Ribbon, which was a made-up name. So first of all, I wanted to ask you, have you read it? What do you know of it? I'm only about a third of the way through right now. But for people that don't know about you more, you are now December 16th, and you gotta gimme the year here, is December 16th is our son Max's birthday. Yeah. He just celebrated his 25th. But December 16th has a particular importance in your life as well as someone who runs.

Yes.

What is that date? And then could you tell us what it means to you today?

Absolutely. I'd be glad to do that. So yeah, in 2009, Adam, I, well, first of all, I did the Boston Marathon twice and then in 1988 and 19— sorry, 1998 and 1999. And then I wanted to get back to Boston and I always just missed the qualifying time by a minute or 2 or 3. Got to a point where I said, man, I'm getting a bit older here. I'm going to try to run 100 marathons by the time I'm 60. So far, I've done 114, no injuries, thank God. And then, but I also said, listen, this is a goal that, that's very doable for the— what if I, for the rest of my life, don't skip a single day, run every day for the rest of my life until I take my last breath? And so I made that decision on the 16th of December, 2009, just celebrated 14 years of running. And today marks Day 5132. 5132 consecutive days of running. So I was debating when I knew you're going to ask me about what is not in your bio. I was debating, am I going to tell you I'm also known as a streaker? But I thought that would be dangerous because people will misunderstand. But there is such a thing as a streaking association, but it's Running Streak Association. Absolutely terrific. This morning is a great example of— I went out. It's in Canada. It's a bit cold. It's winter. But 10 minutes into my run, and I do use Nikes, by the way, and always have been, you know, it's just, it's not just like religion right here. It's not for everybody. And there are a lot of choices. But as I was lacing up my running shoes and heading out of the door and looking toward the east and seeing the dawn there, I said to myself, this is symbolic of a great day coming. And what a privilege to take a breath. What a privilege to take an in-breath and out-breath. What a privilege to think, to meditate while I run, to just enjoy my body, enjoy my health, enjoy my fitness. And of course, you know, looking forward to the podcast. So the running part is important, but it's the return of the investment that really helps me. Many of my books that I wrote, the best ideas I got when I was out there running. The endorphins flow, blood flow to the brain is better. One of my favorite books is a book called Spark, written by a doctor at Harvard. And he talks about how exercise can help us be resilient, not depressed. And I think his name is John Ratey. It's called Spark. But yeah,

we'll make sure we get that in the show notes as well.

Yeah, I think it'd be great to see. I may have it in my study here. I'll just quickly take a look in a minute or so. But here's the deal. People ask me, why do you do it? Do you do it for ego issues? Do you do it to brag? Do you do it because you're boring? And some people say you should race. You should take some days off, but I don't see it that way, Adam. I mean, we don't take a break from brushing our teeth every day or getting a good night's sleep every night. And once it becomes part of a habit, part of a lifestyle, and you don't almost have to think about it, it's just a beautiful place to be at. I encourage listeners to the program to pick something that they care about and make it something they can do consistently. Now, you don't have to do it every day, but at least maybe once a week or twice a week or whatever. Yeah, I know you really do believe in the importance of gratitude. And as you say, we're kindred spirits. Grateful people are often optimistic and happy. It's very, very difficult to find a depressed person who's grateful. And I think gratitude is so important. So I'm very thankful that I can run. I'm looking forward to many more years of running. And God willing, if I'm healthy, I'm going to do my part. And I'm hoping God will do his part. Do you remember there was a guy who was running for the United States and he was an endurance athlete? I think he was a Christian and he prayed a prayer that went something like this. Dear God, you pick up my legs, I will put them down. He took the easy part. But, you know, it's a team effort, right?

It's a team effort. I couldn't agree more. So you had said to me before we hit the record button, you were mentioning something about gratitude and you referred to a podcast that we just published a little bit ago. It was kind of a year-end, year-beginning solo. So it was just me. I made everybody suffer, suffer just to listen to me for 20 or so minutes, as opposed to the brilliant people I get to interview. I talked about this concept of getting the moment right.

So, yeah.

Could you share just your thoughts on that concept and how you apply it or use it in your daily practices?

Let me just quickly hold up this book here for—

Oh, you found it. Spark.

In my clinic here. So they have John Ratty.

Yeah. MD. Mm-hmm.

You can put it in the show notes. Yeah, I think what you said, and by the way, I know you're self-deprecating when you say you tortured people just so they listen to you. Sometimes there's a time to have a guest and sometimes there's a time to do what you did. And I thoroughly enjoyed listening to you and took notes. And what jumped out for me was to get this moment right. Obviously it's gonna mean different things to different people, but to me, Adam, I think it's important, like Eckhart Tolle teaches, is that we are human beings having a spiritual experience. And so he says that sometimes just being, just not doing, but being is important. And to be in the moment, to be present, to be grateful, to know that you have a breath and to understand that you're more than just what you see on the outside. You're more than just form. I think basically if we get this moment right, I would almost say like this shirt that I'm wearing here, this button that I'm touching right now is the top button. And when all of us get dressed in the morning and, well, you're wearing a t-shirt, but I'm sure sometimes you do wear a shirt, that the key thing is to get that button right. Because if you get that button in the right hole, all the other buttons subsequently will fall into place. And I think that is the moment of the now. If we can get the now, this moment right, with a good attitude, with what I call my MVP principle, which is we think of MVP as most valuable player in sport. World Series or Super Bowl or whatever. But in my mind, M stands for my motives, V stands for my values, and P for my priorities. So if I can get this moment right with the right motives, the right values, the right priorities, then just like this button concept, all the other things will fall into place.

Yeah, I'm writing down what you're saying because I just love the nuance there. So in this podcast, I shared that from my standpoint with the world being what the world is, which is it's the world. It's always been what it is. That's just the obvious. But it feels challenging now, and people are in a great deal of confusion and anxiety. And we see that and we hear that. We can't ignore it. I don't want to ignore it. So I chose to speak to it a little bit and have, I guess, the being audacious enough to share some thoughts on something so complex as that. But to me, it was keeping it simple is to recognize that we all feel this heavy weight in the ways that we feel it. And there's tremendous responsibility on our shoulders. And yet my belief system says to me that the only thing we need to actually do, the only duty we have, the only true responsibility we have is to get this moment right.

Yes.

And if you could imagine a world where that was the only singular focus,

Mm-hmm.

Of everyone to get this moment right, what would that mean to each of us individually? And what would that mean to the world collectively?

Well, I think there'll be definitely less suffering. There'll be more of the 4 Brahmaviharas in Buddhism. The 4 Brahmaviharas are known also as the 4 Immeasurable Truths, which is to have love, to have compassion, to have joy, and to have equanimity, which is a state of in-between. Neither too excited or too sad to have a balance. And I think imagine a world where those four qualities are at work more because we get the moment right. There'll be definitely be close to a perfect world. But I mean, of course, we live in an imperfect world. But it's something to aspire to, right? It's something that we should all try to show more of. Can you have what is called sympathetic joy? For example, when I look at your books, when I watch your guests, your podcasts, when your wife and you post pictures on Facebook about your family, man, I can look at that and be happy. happy for you, right? That's called sympathetic joy. I'm not going to sit there and say, geez, you know, their kids are alive and I lost a child. That's not how I think. So to have sympathetic joy is an incredible quality. And can you have too much of it? No. Can you have too much inner peace? No. Can you have too much love toward other people? No. Can you have too much compassion toward others and yourself? No. That's why the Buddha called it the absolutely immeasurable truth. There's no limit there.

I'd say people maybe don't, might subconsciously, unconsciously take exception with the fact that, with the statement, you can't, can you have too much compassion for yourself? Because I think people don't, at least my experience of myself, first and foremost, and those that I'm closest to, that we withhold compassion. We withhold it from ourselves.

So true. You know?

And we are so quick to judge both ourselves and others. And so these are the things we work on. And to me, when I say get the moment right, that if the only thing we were responsible for was to get the moment right, we don't have to solve the world's problems. We don't have to correct someone or change someone or change something necessarily. But in that moment, what does it mean to get that, to get your breath right, to get your thought right?

Yes.

You know, and if you can do that, if you can just get your thought right, first and foremost,

Yes.

Then you are on the right foot. You are giving yourself, to use your great analogy, that wonderful example, you get the first button. And when you get that first button right, it's so easy for the other buttons to be aligned.

Sure.

To be more easily. And so in an alignment. So to me, so much of the complication of life is difficult because we can't find the simple truth in it. What is the simple truth? The objective truth, if you're lucky, you know, to find that, that does set us free.

Absolutely. And free from suffering and in a place of peace. And it takes work. Here's another thing I just feel like we need to share. I know we may run out of time soon, but as I'm sitting here reminded of a meditation I did one morning before I went for my run, and I'm gonna share it with you and the audience, hopefully, because it'll land for you the way it landed for me, because it's a visual image. And it's a very important one. Imagine it goes like this. In the center is a green dot. Around the green dot is a yellow circle, and around the yellow circle is a big red circle. So on the outside, this big red circle, then the yellow circle, and then in the middle, a green dot. And what that represents, Adam, is the center is that in our life which we can control and we can have influence over. And that's the smallest. Around that comes that which we can actually influence, but we have no control, no control, but some influence. And then the big red circle is the reality of our lives, that which we cannot control and that which we cannot influence. And I think it's in the context of getting the moment right. I think we need to be wise to control the controllables and to not fuss over things we cannot control. We have no agency over One of my favorite authors, a Buddhist teacher, is Tara Brach, and she wrote a book called Radical Acceptance. And the word radical means at the root. When a woman gets a radical mastectomy, breast cancer, they remove the lymph nodes, the breast. It's radical surgery, but you get hold of the cancer. So radical acceptance is at the root. You accept the things you can change. It's like the Serenity Prayer, right?

Yes.

It goes like this: God, give me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference. And that's probably another thing about getting this moment right. What kind of wisdom do you have to know the difference between what you can control, where you have agency, versus that which you absolutely— it's not under your control or your influence, and let it go and accept it? I want to circle back to Dale Carnegie. It's a bit of a—

I was just thinking that. I was literally thinking that it's the stop worrying. It's got to be in the book.

He, in the book, said there was a rhyme. It was like by Mother Goose or something. It says, if there's an— for every ailment under the sun, there is a cure or there is none. If there is one, try to find it. If there is none, never mind it. So a bit of poetry and lightheartedness, but a lot of truth in that, right?

Indeed. Peter, I always love our conversations. They always seem too short to me. This is a good place, I think, for us to conclude. There will be show notes, of course. And to our listeners, you've learned a lot, starting with Peter, Dr. Nieman's bio, and a brand new book, Sustained: A Life Rewritten After Sudden Misfortune. But all of your books are magnificent. They're all available on Amazon. Again, we will have more information about those things and links to go and purchase. Through the show notes. And this is direct to our audience. If you have questions for Dr. Nieman or for myself, please feel free to put those questions or comments because the comments are also super valuable to us. adammarkel.com/podcast. You can leave a question or comment there. And as always, this will not be a— no AI, no chatbot to respond. It will be us doing that. If you've got somebody in your life as I imagine you probably do, whether it's a colleague, a friend, a family member that could benefit from listening to some of what was shared today. I think some really important things we're able to touch upon. Share the episode because it's good for them. Maybe it's good for them. We don't know. We, we can't control that, right? That's beyond our control. But we can certainly show effort, and it helps. It helps us. So I say thank you for doing that, because when you share the podcast, when you Provide a review of some kind. When you rate the podcast on the platform you're consuming it, it helps the algorithm. I don't understand it that much. I just know that it puts it in front of more people. More people get access. So you're doing us and our community a service and a favor to take the time out of your busy day to do those things. So thank you for that. And just lastly, if you are wanting on your own to just check in with yourself, see where your level of resilience is on the mental side, on the physical side, on the emotional side, On the spiritual side even, which in our world of resilience research, it's not about spirituality, but it's about alignment. If you're curious about where you are, you can go to rankmyresilience.com, rankmyresilience.com. And in 3 minutes, you can get some insights, scoring for yourself, see how that has changed. If you've taken the assessment in the past, you can check it again and see how you're doing today. It is a snapshot in time. And then, of course, there are free resources that come After that, so Peter, as always, I just want to say thank you for taking the time to share a piece of yourself with us today. I said to you before we even started the recording, my wife Randy, she adores you, and she is the litmus test for me always about people. I've been both a good judge of character and a bad judge and a poor judge of character in my work in the world at times. I think the bomb. I think the world of you, and it's just. Always confirmed by Randy's view of you, and as I said, she just adores who you are, how you show up, what you do, and how you've moved forward. How you how you've become better is somehow in some just ineffable. It defies description how you move forward from such a thing as happened in your life and your wife's life. But thank you for sharing your story and for writing. For all the things you do. You're planting trees, you're helping to regenerate this world is a bit torn and tattered, probably as it always has been. But thank you, Peter. Thank you.

Oh, Adam, it's an absolute pleasure to spend this time with you. As you say, time flies and I'll always put a plug in for what you're doing. But it's the saying, bean by bean, the bag gets full. And if we can get one more listener to follow you, one more person to get more resilient, and one person that helps somebody else to get more resilient in a world that is full of uncertainty, man, that's what success looks like, I think. And that's what meaning and purpose is all about. So congratulations that you've come this far. How many years has the podcast been on now?

I mean, we're probably into our 6th year. It's been 300-some episodes. I mean, it's been a minute.

I'm looking forward to 60 years, but that's maybe unrealistic. Let's go for 10. I'd love to be back on your program when you celebrate your 10th year.

You know what? That's a guarantee. Yeah. I mean, from one streaker to another.

Keep, keep speaking. Keep speaking.

I love it, sir. Thank you so much again.

Thanks. Say hi to all friends and to your wife and to your children. Tell them lots of good wishes from cold Canada. Warm wishes from cold Canada.

Always the warm-hearted Canadians. That is the truth. Dr. Peter Nieman, he's a one of a kind. He really is. He's truly a special person. Can you imagine that person there being your child's pediatrician? If you have children, if you have children in the future, just imagine being so fortunate, so lucky to have a pediatrician like this. He is truly incredible. And his amazing wife, Corinne, is also a doctor, a family doctor. These are really Good people. And you know what? As good as they are, as you heard, they've experienced excruciating tragedy in their lives. So things happen, and sometimes really tragic, horrible things, horrific things can happen to good people. I don't think there's any distinction there about that. Things happen in life, and we can't understand it always. In fact, many times we don't understand it, and yet we still have to process it. And we do for particular reasons that transform and allow for those experiences to be of value. As Peter said today, we can either be bitter or we can be better. And he has certainly chosen the path of being better as a result of a very, very difficult thing. We covered so many things today. We talked about the concept that I was sharing in a recent solo cast. At New Year's about getting the moment right and about how we get this moment right and what that looks like. And he, he provided this wonderful example of what that conceptually can be. And by analogizing it to how we put a shirt on that has buttons, you know, you typically start with that button at the top or near the top. And if you get that one right, if you just get that first button to be aligned, all the buttons below it sort of just fall into place. And I thought that was a great way to describe the concept of getting this moment right, getting our thoughts right, getting our breath right, getting our body in that moment, whatever that moment is, to be in the place where we are fully present and here and now in this. So we talked about Dale Carnegie. Somehow or another, that came up. We talked about so many different books today, and he recommended a book that I'm gonna get, a couple of books that actually that, that I'm gonna plan on getting. But this one about How to stop worrying. I'm a recovering worryaholic. I don't worry as much as I used to, for sure. But yet I still find myself doing that, falling into that old default mode, as many of us do. And, and this is an old Dale Carnegie book from 1912. So I think it's just for me, it'll be cool to find a copy. I'm sure there are some copies out there. I haven't looked yet, but I'm gonna look for one very soon. We talked about gratitude, of course, and we talked about The importance of December 16 in our life, our son's birthday in Peter's life, and how he has now run for 5,132 days consecutively. He has run and has now completed, I think, 114 marathons, which is just—I mean—it's totally remarkable. We talked about this this wonderful concept of wishing to only be truly helpful. Kind of mentioned that at the end of our conversation. This idea that comes from A Course in Miracles. And the idea that we can wish to be truly helpful. That's one of those things that you can remind ourselves today. I wish only to be truly helpful. It's just a beautiful statement. But we covered philosophy. We talked about Buddhism. We talked about religion a little bit, but spirituality mostly. We talked about relationships and how that old statement of have relationships for a reason, a season, or a lifetime, and what that can mean in other contexts. It just This was a conversation, I think, that because we talked about tragedy and resiliency in the face of tragedy, that it is an episode that you may wanna bookmark and keep handy for future reference. It's an episode that you might wanna share with somebody else in your life, friend, colleague, family member, et cetera. And as always, we appreciate when you do that too. But I so enjoyed this conversation. That's all I wanted out of it was to just be with a, this dear person. Be present with him, not keep to any, any kind of an agenda, but really just follow the breadcrumbs, which I feel like we were led divinely along the path today in this conversation. So hope you enjoyed it. Hope you enjoyed the interview. And as always, we'd love your feedback. Feel free to provide us with that. And I wish you just the most beautiful day or evening, wherever we're finding you, wherever you are in the world, whatever you're doing at this moment. I'm sending you my love. And thank you so much for being, as always, a supporter of this podcast and a part of our community. And we'll say— I will say ciao for now.

Thanks for listening. We hope you now have even more tools and greater insights to build resilience and become change-proof. Remember to leave a review on Apple Podcasts and you may be featured in an upcoming episode. For more resilience tips and strategies, including support for building change-proof teams, visit adammarkel.com to get your own free For your free resilience assessment, go to rankmyresilience.com. Thank you.