Hale Dwoskin On The Sedona Method: Tapping Into Your Self-Radiant Awareness

Life happens, and not always the way we expect it to. Every single day we face change, stress, and uncertainty. What if you could learn to thrive no matter what life throws your way? Resilience expert Adam Markel and his inspiring guests explore breakthrough strategies to fully embrace change and build the resilience required to become change-proof.

Hey everybody, welcome back. I'm your host, Adam Markel. And I'm feeling incredibly lucky and blessed to be sitting here with all of you today. It's a glorious day outside. Randy and I are taking a little time to ourselves living on this little island, and it's cold. It's an East Coast island. So we're normally in Southern California, and now we're shivering ourselves silly on the East. But I just feel incredibly I feel really lucky to have the variety and the diversity in my life, and it's contributed so much to my sense of joy. I feel joyful now even though it rained all day yesterday. It was kind of sleeting sideways at one point. Today the sun is out, and that variety is in this— in terms of even just the weather, I forgot how much I crave that living in such a glorious environment as Southern California. Maybe found myself a little deeply in that groove of every day at 60 and sunny. Right. So it feels, it feels good. What else feels really What's really good to me is that I've got somebody that I'm going to introduce all of you to. Some of you already know this gentleman or know his work because he's been around, not so much a length of time. I don't want to say that. I got my own age issues. But I think it's the depth and the breadth of this body of work that first I came in contact with when I was pivoting out of practicing law and wanting to help people to navigate their own transitions and their own pivots in life. And so often it is that what gets in the way or at least creates resistance when we want to make a change or when we are being called to a change is this sort of holding on and hanging on to the past, hanging on to other people's thoughts about us and expectations as well as our own thoughts about what's happened and old hurts and angers and just a whole host of things. And when I first got introduced to this gentleman, it was in regard to how it is that I was able to let go of certain things. What process is there? Is there a process or a way to actually let go of stuff so you're not constantly walking around with a knapsack full of these heavy things that get in the way of us being able to do the things we want to do in our lives. So let me read a bit of this gentleman's bio because he just deserves to have this full bio shared with you and then we'll invite him in. But I feel just incredibly blessed for this moment and looking forward to sharing it all with you. Gentleman's name is Hal Dwoskin. He is a New York Times bestselling author of The Sedona Method and is featured in the movie Letting Go. He is the founder of Sedona Training Associates, an organization that teaches courses based on the emotional releasing techniques inspired by his mentor, Lester Levinson. He is one of the 24 featured teachers of the book and the movie phenomenon, The Secret, as well as a founding member of the Transformational Leadership Council. For over 4 decades, he has regularly been teaching the Sedona Method to individuals and corporations throughout the United States and the UK and has been teaching and leading coaching trainings and advanced retreats since the early 1990s. It's such a pleasure to have you with us today, Hal. Thanks so much for being here.

Oh, it's my pleasure. My pleasure. And fun to be here.

You know, the bio is filled with a lifetime, really, or many, many lifetimes of work helping people. I'm going to ask you a question that's, that's more about what's not in the bio. What's not in that fabulous introduction. What's one thing that you would love for people to know about you as we get started?

Oh, that even though I've been working on myself for decades, and have really experienced very profound peace and joy and love and all the things that we all want, that what I am is the same thing that you are. At your core, there is this self-radiant awareness that is your true nature. We often ignore it, we look away from it, we get involved in our stories, in our dramas, in the things that are holding us back. But at our core, there is no difference at all between what you are and what I am. We are all that pure, limitless awareness. Now, yes, that's not our living experience all the time. However, when you're aware of anything, that is that same awareness shining through. It's not different than that boundless awareness that we all are. So it's with— you can't have an experience without awareness. And so that same awareness gives us the ability to have this conversation, to see, to hear, to feel, to experience, to have an incredibly full, joyous life. rich life. So the thing I want you to know about me is I may have been puttering with this for decades, but— and studying it, but it's really something that is as intimate to you as it is to me.

Before we got started, you were sharing with me that because the work, the Sedona Method, and its— and the ripple effect that's been around has the procession of that, of that body of work has been significant. And a lot of things have grown out of it because I had asked you, you know, before we hit the record button, if you were aware of someone that had written another book called The Presence Process. And so I'm just curious because so much has grown out of the Sedona Method. What did the Sedona Method grow out of?

Ah, that's a good question. The Sedona Method actually grew out of 2 things. The main thing it grew out of is my mentor, Wester Weavenson, back in 19— 52, was sent home to die from a second coroner. The doctors basically said, you're about to die. And he was successful. He had all the trappings of success. He was actually living in New York City in an apartment overlooking Central Park. He lived in a penthouse in Central Park South. He had several successful businesses. He was popular. You know, it looked like he should be happy.

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But he was a physical and emotional basket case, and the second coronary was just like the icing on the cake. It was the last straw. And because he was trained as a physicist and an engineer, he decided to go back to the lab within himself. And over a very short period of time, actually just 3 months, he went from a physical and emotional basket case into a state of unbroken awareness. And pure peace that he lived in another 42 years after the doctor said, you got weeks. And then he started trying to share this with other people, and he used the Bible at one point to try to share it. He used the teachings from the East, but it, it started to formulate into a system in the early '70s. And I met Lester in 1976 at a seminar that I organized for a man named Wayne Leonard Orr, uh, called Theta Seminars, and I was one of the organizers for his one-year seminar in New York City. And Lester came as a guest, and I didn't even notice him because one of the things about Lester is he was completely unassuming. If you talked to him, if you paid attention, you could feel the amazing breadth and depth to the peace that he was exuding. But he didn't ever try to draw attention to himself. So, but fortunately I went out to lunch with him, the other organizer, and Leonard. And as we sat there at lunch, he didn't really talk that much, but I could feel where he was coming from. And I thought to myself, if I can have just a little bit of what this guy's got, I want it. And to make a long story short, I was on what used to be a 2-weekend seminar the very next weekend. And he didn't teach it because he didn't want to be in front of the room. And it was teaching the basics of the Sedona Method. And before the seminar was even over, over, in addition to noticing immediate profound changes within myself, I had this deep intuitive knowingness that, oh, this is why I'm here. I'm supposed to help this guy. I'm supposed to share this work. I was 22 years old. And now I'm 66 and still going strong. And then in the, in the early '90s, uh, Wester knew he was getting ready to leave the body. So he passed all his copyrights to me and he said, I want you to continue this work. I'm kind of giving you this mantle. And at first I actually fought it. I didn't want any, didn't want the responsibility. And, but I said, okay. And he also said to me that you will continue to evolve this work and you will find a way to make this even better. And so the other thing that the Sedona Method has come out of is since the early '90s, the Sedona Method has just gotten broader and broader and broader and included more and more ways of helping us let go of that which is holding us back. And recognizing that truth of who we are, the awareness that I referenced in the very beginning.

Yes.

So that's its origin story.

That's great. And so interesting that you just said origin story because there's always so many little wonderful synchronicities. And so this is nothing you won't— this will mean nothing to you. But as part of our— some of our work that we do in the world, which is to train people to deliver talks on a TED stage, Yes, yes. We talk about starting with your origin story. That's part of the sort of the structure. And so for you to call it that, yes, that's what it feels like. It's the first domino.

Right, right. That was definitely a pivot for me, as you would say.

Yeah,

it was a huge pivot.

And what were you— so what were you planning? I'm just curious at that moment at 22 when obviously being—

I really, again, at 22, I didn't have any big plans really. Yeah. I had already just—

He caught you at a good time.

He caught me at a perfect time. I had already been a spiritual seeker since a teenager.

Okay.

And I had studied the— studied Eastern and Western teachings. I had done things like EST and actualisms and Theta seminars and rebirthing. But whenever I did anything, I did it full tilt. I was being trained as a rebirther when I made the pivot into the Sedona Method. When I was involved in EST, which is now called Landmark, I was on the trainer track. So I— when I did something, I just went for it.

Where'd you grow up, Hill?

Brooklyn.

So I'm a Queens kid. My dad's—

You're a Queens kid. I actually— I could— you see, I could sense that when we first started talking.

I know, right? I have all the boroughs covered because my mother's from the Bronx, my brother lives in Manhattan, you know, except Staten Island. Poor Staten Island. I always get this sort of the fuzzy end of the stick with me.

But

when my wife and I, we lived in New Jersey for a bunch of years, and I remember we used to travel through that island borough to get to our house in Jersey. That was it. But so you grew up in New York, and there's— do you know why you were leaning into that kind of work? Because I think it's really curious. I know in my own sort of, if we go to that origin story, My dad was a civil servant. He worked for the City of New York. My mom did odd jobs. We lived in an apartment. They didn't have a lot of money, but service and being of service was really important. My dad was writing at night. He was a creative writer, and he did this other work during the day. I got to hear a lot about things, not just philosophy, but the science of living. And the person I heard about early on was Albert Ellis. You must know Dr. Ellis's work. And that was more of a psychology side of things. Sure. You know, I think the seeds in me were planted early on that there were less talked about ways or ways of approaching life that you didn't necessarily get access to by watching TV or, you know, the common conversations that went on or that you were— things that you were taught in school and that kind of thing. What are the seeds of your fascination and even This deep commitment that you said, you went, dove right in. Do you have a sense of why that was?

You know, it's hard to say because the truth is that anytime we think, in my experience, anytime we think we know why things are happening, it's usually way beyond what we think. And I've seen that over and over and over again in my life. It could have started when I was 3. I had a brother who was born severely with brain damage. She was severely mentally retarded. And how I coped with that is I wanted to help my mother. You know, I also felt like, well, I got pushed out of the spotlight, so I wanted to— I wanted to be visibly helping. And that wanting to help was with me my whole life. Before I got into spirituality, I thought I was going to be a doctor. There was this deep wanting to help. And It's only recently that I realized that I started having spiritual experiences at a very young age. I had no idea at the time. They were— I had no spiritual conceptualization. But I remember watching a sunset when I was very young. I was at camp. And I basically disappeared into the sunset. There was no hail there. There was just this incredibly beautiful scene. And things like that happened occasionally in my life, and I thought nothing of it because it was, it was just what naturally happened. And at the same time, I had all the psychological struggles that everyone has growing up, especially with trauma, early, the early trauma of having such a disturbing thing happen in your life, because he was institutionalized and it changed our whole family. It was, it was a tough thing. But the way I coped with it was to look for ways to help. And I think— and then again, by happenstance, I read a book called Autobiography of a Yogi when I was a teenager. Yeah. And so many people have read that book and it inspired them to go in this direction. And I read that book and I deeply resonated with it. And so I started Exploring that whole field. And at the time, it was very rich and open. This is the— I guess I started in the '60s or the— it must have been the late '60s. So everybody of my age group was exploring these type of things. But it wasn't until I hit the Sedona Method that something really stuck. And so again, I can't really say one particular moment. It was all a gestalt of things pulling me in this direction. And also my parents contributed too.

Yeah.

Because they were very open-minded. They were quite liberal. They always thought, even though by the time I can remember, they had their early struggles, but they were starting to become successful. My mother was a teacher. My father was a was a lawyer and then a real estate broker, and they had some modicum of success. But even with their success, they always cared. They wanted everyone to succeed. It wasn't just about their success. It wasn't just us against the world. It was, hey, we have responsibility to everybody. If everybody wins, we win. It's not just if we win. So I owe that to my parents as well.

Yeah. I want to dig in because the time is, is so precious. I want to talk specifically about the method, of course.

Sure.

And I sort of want to set the context for it a little bit, because I know it's not our intention to try to create a summary of 4 decades. So just to be clear, right?

Okay.

Take the pressure off of you, right?

I didn't feel any, but that's fine.

I didn't feel any. I wasn't feeling that you were pressured either.

Yeah, yeah.

I would like to maybe think about if we go to the The cause of causes, if you will. Now, so people are miserable. Let's start there, right?

Yeah. Well,

you know,

yeah, the Buddha—

why are people so miserable? No, kidding.

Well, I could give you that in a short answer if you want. It's very simple.

Okay.

It has nothing to do with the pandemic or the economy or family struggles or life struggles or Illness, or all the things that we think cause our misery. Our misery comes from just one thing, really. And this is just again: you have to believe this. This is how I perceive it. It only comes from one thing. It's forgetting the truth of who we are and believing we are a limited person. To the degree that we identify with our story of woe, to that degree. We suffer. There are too many examples in life to name of people who have gone through similar experiences, and one person comes out of the experience profoundly transformed for the better, and the other person is crushed by it, never recovers. The difference is, is that the one person let go through the experience and discovered a little more of their own Essence of inner truth, not their personal truth, the same truth that we all share. And the other person just identified with the story and felt the victim of it and felt crushed by it and then lived their whole life in compensation for it. And so we all have an opportunity when faced with anything to either let go and grow from it and use it to discover what's beyond the surface events, or we can just identify more with the suffering. And then what happens once we start to identify with being limited and suffering, we become suffering collectors. Oh, that was bad. Okay, I'll just add that to the stack. And it gets— our burden that we carry gets heavier and heavier and heavier. So even when things go really well, you know, we make a lot of money, we have a beautiful relationship, we have— our health is good. That we can't fully enjoy it because we're carrying this burden of all this past stuff that we think happened to us personally, whereas it was just an experience that the body-mind went through. And now it's in a totally new experience. Every moment is new. In fact, the only moment we ever really experience is this one. And when we live from that awareness that we are, there's nothing for any of this to hold on to because we're not identifying as that limited person. We're identifying as the truth of who you are. But it's also incredibly practical. You don't lose your memories. And when you're dealing with what's here, if you're, for instance, if you're trying to make a business choice, instead of having to depend on the things that worked in the past, You take that into consideration, but then you really look at what's here now and you make better business decisions. If there's an investment that you're trying to make, instead of operating out of fear or lust, you operate out of clear reason and intuitive knowingness. And so you make better decisions. In relationships, if you're already happy inside, if you already feel more content, You bring happiness to it instead of trying to get your partner to give it to you. And in health, the health goes up and down. That's just the natural flow of life. But when you don't react to the health condition, you're more likely to find a solution, but you're also a lot less likely to suffer. And you're cooperating with the body's natural healing ability because you're not sticking your fingers in the gear because you're going, ah! And so, it makes a huge difference to approach life in that way.

I'm curious when it comes to why people— not so much why misery is so prevalent, I suppose, but when there is a desire to move past that, to be able to be happier. I'm not a huge believer in that word or that concept. But the quest for happiness, what gets in the way of it, Hal? Is it the fact that people don't know the process for letting go of the things that are creating that misery? Or is it that they don't perhaps understand the ROI that comes from it? Because I think—

Yeah, actually, it's better to understand

it. Yeah,

it's a little bit of both. One is if you're letting go, if you're opening, There's the happiness that you are comes forth. And the other piece is we're always looking for— most of us are looking for happiness where it isn't. We're looking for it outside of ourselves. Lester Levinson, my mentor, used to say happiness is simply you being you, not your persona or the person you, you being that awareness, that beingness. And so what happens, the reason we get confused is when we want something, that actually hurts. The more we want it, the more it hurts. But when we do finally get it, because we do of course get things we want from time to time, when we do finally get it, those— that wanting drops away and all the thoughts that come from it and all the angst of not having it temporarily drops away. And then we're experiencing more of our basic nature, that joy, that peace, that love that is at our core. And then we go, oh, I know it came from having more money, so I just need to get more money. And it doesn't work. Or it came from being with this person, or it came from finally getting through this disease. Now, am I saying don't have loving relationships or more money or be healthy? Of course not. But when we think happiness comes from that, then it's never enough. And it never goes deeply and it never emerges deeply and out from our core into our experience. And it's fleeting.

Yes.

Whereas, as you recognize that you are that awareness or beingness, that is the root cause of all. The more you recognize that, the more you bring happiness to that, and the more invulnerable you feel even when you're in the middle of struggle. Struggles don't stop, struggles continue, of course. You know, this body-mind has had a lifetime of things that were challenging, yet because of the— my perspective and because of my letting go and because of my deepening experience of that core of who I am, The challenges just created more space in me, more ability to take on more responsibility in a worldly way, but also live that happiness that I am and that you are. Again, this isn't unique to me. This is, this is what everyone experiences when they pay attention.

Hale, is there a way to describe the method without doing it disservice? Because I want people to go out and get the book, The Sedona Method as a, you know, maybe, maybe even in the show notes, of course, people are used to seeing, we'll have more information about your work and the organization, the Sedona Training Associates. So all that'll be in the show notes for folks. But can we sort of tee up a conversation? Oh yes, absolutely. What it is actually, and it's—

Absolutely. How much time do we have?

As much, honestly, in this instance, as much as you need to do that. So,

well, because I can talk about it. But I can also give people at least one technique they can start using right away.

Let's do that. And I want to ask you too, do you use this method on a daily basis? Is it so regularly ingrained into your—

It's more than that. Years ago, it went from a technique into a way of living.

Yeah. Wow. The pace of change over the last couple of years has been rapid. And if you're a leader, a business owner, an entrepreneur, you know exactly what I'm talking about. Every day it's something different and something new. But the one thing that I've learned in performing at the height of all of those roles has been that we must be resilient. In fact, it's the unsung hero in every success story that you will ever hear about. And it's the reason why my team and I created the resilience assessment that more than 5,000 business leaders across the globe have taken. And all All you have to do to get your own free Resilient Leader Assessment is go to resiliencerank.com. It takes less than 3 minutes, and it's our gift to you for being the leader that you already are. Other free resources and tools will accompany your score instantly. So go to resiliencerank.com and find out just how resilient you are.

Things arise in consciousness and then they dissolve. I rarely cling to them. And if there's any clinging, I notice it. And just in the noticing it, it dissolves.

So you've embodied this to the extent—

Yes. It's

not an outside— it's not a technique you have to deploy when—

No. But what's interesting though is I continue to research on myself and I continue to expand the work as I work with others. All the changes that have happened to the Sedona Method, the deepening, Over the time I've been— Lester, after Lester asked me to take this on, is even with the method, I didn't do it by rote. There was a person in front of me or a group in front of me and they needed something. So because there was so little hail, I just got out of the way and things arose as a way to present this. So I've been fascinated with how the human consciousness works and also how the— it's not really divine, it's how the natural beingness that we are works and is. So I'm constantly exploring it. And out of that comes more and more direct and easier ways to help people discover this. You have an older bio, the one you read in the beginning. Rhonda Byrne, the woman who wrote The Secret and created the movie The Secret, has a new book out, came out in November. It's called The Greatest Secret, and Lester and myself are a huge part of that.

Hmm.

And a lot of what's in The Greatest Secret didn't come from me because many other teachers discovered the same thing and are saying that. Some of it may have come from us directly, but The some of a lot of how that book talks about how to discover how to end suffering and discover the truth of who you are is how I've been teaching for decades. And so it's all gestalt; it all kind of evolves together. But back to what the Sedona Method is: the Sedona Method is. Is just a very simple yet powerful set of tools that show you how to tap a natural ability that we all have. And this natural ability is that we all can let go. We've, we've, we did it naturally as young children, and then we forgot. And as adults, when we, when we rediscover it as an adult, Then we can't lose it again. It was natural but kind of automatic as children. Well, we used to have a process.

We would melt down, right? Kids have a total shit fit. And I mean, we have 4 kids, so we— it's been—

Oh, yes, yes.

Kids did that. But is that part of what we stopped?

No, the meltdown is not it. It's what happens afterwards. Yes, kids definitely have meltdowns. But did you ever notice a kid fall down You have 4 kids, you must have seen this. And then look around to see if they need to be upset.

Oh yeah, because as soon as they see the look on the parent's face that says you're hurt, that's when they cry.

That's right, because they know it's an opportunity. Oh good, Daddy or Mommy's gonna take care of me.

And parents out there, just so you know.

Right, right, right, right. But as soon as they get their kiss or their— or the acknowledgement, they just drop it. Because it's— they don't even try to drop it, it just falls away. Because that's what's natural, that things don't stick to you unless you cling to them. And we start clinging actually very young, at about age 2 or 2 and a half, through the terrible twos. You've watched your children. How old are your children?

Oh goodness, the oldest is 28, the youngest is 20.

So you— but I'm sure you remember at about age 2 or 2 and a half, they learned the word no.

Indeed.

But that was actually a side effect. What happened is they went from referring to their toys as my toy, to Bob's toy or Harry's toy, or I don't know what your children's names are, to my toy. They started identifying with that name that you gave them. And from then on, for most of us, we just continue to accumulate around that and we let go less and less. I'm sure you saw that with your kids.

So that's

their ability.

That's an example of the clinging. That you're referring to.

Yes, yes. But I'm sure you noticed that as your kids got older, they got better at being an adult, but they also got worse at letting go. They started trying to model after us.

Right. And this is mine, as though any of us—

That's right. But not just this is mine, these feelings are mine, these hurts are mine, these thoughts are mine, these limitations are mine. And so we cling to it believing it's true, yet it's never been true. They're just things that pass through awareness and they're done. And then the mind dwells on it and claims it as its own.

Can we call that— I don't want to get into the technical on this, but are we calling that the ego? Is that what's clinging?

We could call it an ego, but I don't like that term because it's too misunderstood.

Yeah.

And then a lot of people go to war with the ego. Or the mind. Okay. That's a total— that's a mistake. The mind is a tool if we use it correctly. The, the mind is just not a good master. Unfortunately for most of us, we've made the mind the master. And when you make the mind the master, then you're being dragged behind the bus. But even right in this moment, this is something that Rhonda talks about in The Greatest Secret. And this is one of the— one of our more advanced techniques— is just notice your mind. Notice the thoughts. Notice the feelings that you're experiencing in this moment. And check: are you actually that, or are you that which is aware of it? See, as soon as you know you're the awareness, something just relaxes and opens inside. Because we live contracted around this belief that we're our thoughts, our feelings, our beliefs, our ideas, and we think that's who we are. But it's— that is never who we are. Who we are is the awareness that gives that life. And the more you recognize that, the more you see the world from that perspective, the clearer your mind gets, the better it is at solving any life situation, but the less you suffer. You only suffer because you think you are all that stuff. And each time you check, which you can do and I recommend that, that's one of the things we do in our programs, but it's also one of the basic things Rhonda teaches in her book The Greatest Secret, is if you check your direct experience, you don't— there's no belief required. Just look at your direct experience. Whatever you're experiencing right now, you can just simply check, am I actually that, or am I that which is aware? Each time you really look, you start to feel what awareness feels like. Awareness is boundless. Awareness is the source of happiness and love, and that's who we actually are. And so This is something that the more you explore, the more your whole world transforms every way. And that's just a small piece of the Sedona Method. We also teach very powerful tools for letting go of the parts of the mind that you get tripped up in.

Yeah. The world that we're living in right now, I know this podcast will be heard for a long time and it could be very many, you know, a great distance further down the road that someone's listening to this and thinking, you know, that's— that the example I'm about to use isn't relevant. But you can choose, replace what I'm about to say with anything that's going on in your life right now that's just causing you— that you feel suffering from.

Yes.

There are many people who have suffered great loss during the pandemic and will continue.

Oh, many.

So whether that's the loss of a job or a business or a loved one or any number of other things that are just Really tough to deal with. To someone that's holding on, let's say, to some of that, the weight of that experience that's been real. It's a real—

Absolutely.

Yes. We're not saying in any way, shape, or form that this is ignoring the reality of—

No, no, no, no.

What are we saying to someone in that situation where they are hanging on to something right in this moment? How do they—

how could they— In addition to this question that I just used, which I recommend they use, because if you can see that you are the awareness, then you know that this, even though it hurts at the moment, you are more than that. Just knowing you are more than that, the hurt starts to subside, sometimes dramatically and quickly. But you can also look at it in another way. You can see that it is a thought or a feeling or an experience that you're having. It isn't attached to you. And because of that, you can let go of the hurt. And in letting go of the hurt, you can rebuild your life. And it's not— for instance, if you lost someone, it's not an abandonment of the love that you feel for them. But if you let go of the hurt, you'll discover you feel more of the love that that hurt was covering over. And the more you let go of the emotion, the more you'll feel like they're still here with you, at least in your heart. If you're out of work and you are struggling with that, or your income is lower than it was, or you've had to adapt to a way of working with this, the way the world is at the moment, you can be crushed by that. And you might feel that way at the moment, but If you can just let go of even a little of the emotional reaction, what you'll find is your mind is creative. Your mind knows— it's not actually the mind. The mind is more of a filter, but the mind has access to infinite creativity. And it's only when we're looking at the negative part of the situation that we get— we kind of fall into a hole with it. But if you sit back within yourself and you start to let go even a little, you start to see creative solutions. You might find a different way of approaching the job search. You might even find a whole business that applies to whatever your life— whatever life is in this moment. In seeing that, you can start to find solutions. What generally happens when we, when we've gone through something traumatic is we keep reliving it over and over and over again, which only creates more and more suffering. It's like we're actually digging a hole and covering ourselves with the dirt. We're— instead of, you know, if you dig deep enough you reach gold or water or oil, but that's— most of us are filling the hole We're just getting deeper and deeper into the hole. And eventually we stop seeing the light. But the light that you are is what allows for everything. And instead of digging a hole or digging a deeper hole, you can also start looking for the light that's already in even this contracted situation. Even when you're most contracted, there's still some light because you're aware of it. The awareness is the light that illuminates whatever you're experiencing. So you can start with that awareness and use that as a way to dig out of the hole. And I've worked with people with severe PTSD, childhood abuse, people who'd lost everything. And by letting go of the anger, the fear, the frustration, the angst, and exploring that awareness, the combination of the two has transformed them amazingly. And it works for any age. There was a— just finished leading a facilitator training. What is today? Wednesday. Or a couple of days ago. It doesn't matter what day this is. Who knows when this is going to be broadcast, and who knows when you'll be listening to this. But there was a young child that they were struggling with Zoom. They, they had gotten— being isolated at home, their introvertedness or the shyness had gotten so exaggerated they couldn't even look at the screen and ask questions. It was extreme. So the, the person working with them is a Sedona Method facilitator, and she, she helped this young child let go for about 3 minutes, and then she talked to the mother later that week, later that week or the next week. Just in those 3 minutes, the next time the child was able to ask questions looking directly at the camera, the child then said to the teacher, I— can I make a presentation to you? So she made a presentation to the teacher, and then she— the child said, can I make this to the whole group? And all that was from just a few minutes of letting go. So that's just an extreme example, but no matter what you believe your limitations are, they're not more powerful than the awareness that's illuminating them.

And what's What's embedded, I think, in what you're sharing too is that this is something that can happen in a moment, in any moment.

Yes.

Based on any prior circumstance or history, the freedom that this allows or creates a space for is the only thing that— it's the true— I'm searching for words here because I want to say this the way I'm feeling it. We have a great power within us in any moment.

Yes.

In any moment.

Yes.

And that power transcends or transmutes anything that came before. So you could have had the most miserable life, or the last year has been the most excruciating of experiences, one after another. And in this moment, if you were to choose to acknowledge what you've just shared with us, to let go and to recognize a bit of the the truth of your own being, it doesn't mean those things didn't happen. But in this moment, what you experience is something like peace or freedom or happiness or joy. And what else is there? I mean, in all honesty, what, what else do we have but the way we experience this present moment? That's all we have. Our whole lives are just a collection of moments we've experienced. That's right. And the only one we actually can hold on to at all Is this one. And even this one is gone now.

No, you can't hold on to this. There you go. You can't hold on to anything. That's such a weird thing. We spend our whole lives trying to hold on to things, but it never works. Even this body that we, we try so much to keep around as long as we can, we're going to fail at that. And no one succeeds at that.

What a wonderful— but that's

not

the paradox. Sometimes they— but that's And sometimes they keep you up at night.

No, no, I understand that, but that's not bad news.

No, it's great news, right?

If you live this moment fully, it's exquisite.

And even that, I'm picking at your words now, because even living this moment fully implies somehow that there's a way to do it other than—

Right. I don't mean there's a way to do it.

You're with it, right?

Yes.

But it's so glorious because it allows you to just leave the past Where it truly is, which is it's dead. There's no energy in the past.

Yes, that's right. There is no energy at all. That's right. Except that which we're funneling out of the present moment into trying to create this whole fantasy, which now— I don't want to call it a fantasy because that sounds like an invalidation. But this whole experience where in order to— it saps so much life From the infinite awareness that is right now. It's— we are tapping that instead of to just enjoy life and to accomplish things and to feel good and to help others. We're creating this whole illusion around ourselves that we— for most of us feels impenetrable.

Right.

But—

And it's exhausting, right, Hale?

Exhausting. Right, to keep all that together. Makes us sick. Yes.

And to hold on or to protect, as you were saying, those things we cling to, to protect all the shit we collect and we call mine, whether they're your personality or your house or your relationships or any of these things, it's thoroughly exhausting to have to care for all.

Totally.

Upkeep of it, just all of that.

Totally.

So that's my way of leading into one Let's say final questions, and they relate to this concept of resilience because—

Oh yes.

It's so vital, I think. And maybe I'm a bit self-serving here in the sense that a lot of my own speaking to organizations is on that topic of developing—

But it's a brilliant, wonderful topic. So please be self-serving. Please serve yourself. Go for it.

I want to

know,

I want to know, To what degree you attribute resilience to your ability to just continue to look the way you look with the energy you've got and your— I mean, if people are watching this on YouTube, they'll see this gentleman looks maybe like he's in his mid-40s or something. So it's shocking.

I'm too tall.

You've been doing this for 4+ decades and you have the energy and the enthusiasm that you've got. And I want to attribute that to, in some ways, to resilience. I'm curious what you think of

that. But I think that's valid because this path that this body-mind has been on its whole life hasn't always been easy. There have been major challenges. But what happened is, I'll use your word, I had the resilience to stay with it even When things were the most challenging. In 1998 or '99, '98 I think, I can't remember. It's not that important to me anymore, but I had just led a seminar, a retreat, and I had a mild earache. And the doctor, I went to a doctor and he gave me ear drops. But what he didn't realize at the time is I had severe meningitis and encephalitis. And 24 hours later, I was rushed to the emergency room and got very close to death. But what happened was, while I was in the hospital, it was a profound learning experience because I realized that at that moment I could die, but I also had— was at complete peace about it. Hmm. I didn't think that was even possible. Wester had told me that's possible. You can be facing death itself and not be disturbed. And until it happened to me, I didn't realize it was even possible. And that made me also be able to help others face things like that, because I did whatever I needed to to get better. But at the same time, Instead of living my life, oh my God, I might get sick again. I may get sick again. Eventually, I'm sure I'm going to get sick and die. That's what happens to most of us, or we just keel over. But that's just one example. I didn't— instead of going, oh my God, I might die, I went, oh, I might die. Let's see what this means. And there was also tremendous pain. And It didn't stop me. It just encouraged me to keep going.

Yes. I think you just defined— it's so interesting how many definitions there are for that word resilience. It's so curious. It didn't stop you. It helped you to move forward.

Right.

And to a great extent, our ability to utilize everything. I'm a great believer in that there's no waste. I have a no-waste theory.

Yes, yes, I agree.

It's wonderful about the universe, right? Everything is utilized. It's like the cow patty. The front and back of the cow patty are just, you know, great example of how that all works. So the alchemy of sorts of experiences that are difficult but ultimately help us to live fully, connect with others compassionately, every good thing, everything that's good about The way what is good in our nature, in human nature, I think is even more greatly expressed when we are able to embrace those things that have happened. I would probably call that humility. It's the word I've always sort of used for that.

That's a good— I like that word.

Yeah,

it's a good word.

Because I think we crave definition. I'm hesitating with you here today because I think words are vitally important and yet there's something really arrogant In my— for me, about sort of placing a term.

Oh, oh no, no, please listen. You have your wonderful mission sharing the amazing things you've been sharing, and this podcast is a vehicle to help you do that. Don't apologize for that. I think it's wonderful. This podcast helps even one person discover their resilience, and that's all they get from it. That's wonderful. There's no problem with you bringing that into this conversation.

Oh yeah, you know, gosh, I think it's— anything is fair game, and I really appreciate you saying that. I don't have— I'm not suffering from a lack of ability to move through my insecurities toward other things, but I think it's just I want to expose the fact that regardless of What any of us are— have done or how that's viewed by others still. We all deal with the same stuff. I guess that's what I'm putting out there is I have my moments where I question whether this isn't just some big ego trip or whatever with the books and the speaking and all that stuff. I'm just being honest about it. And those are small moments and I let them go and you just helped me to— release and let go of even that one little thing in my head where I'm, you know, going, you know, like, who the eff are you to put a label on something? And you've been doing this a lot longer than I have. And so I just feel like I'm in the presence of somebody who I've, as I said at the beginning, has been a mentor, you know, kind of an unknown mentor, as you have been to so many other people. I remember hearing about the Sedona Method originally through Some of Jim Britt's work. And I used to lead a 3-day seminar, and on Sunday morning I would have people write about things that were really painful.

Yes.

And they would ask themselves some questions out loud to release and let go of those things. And, you know, and it was wonderful. The things that I saw were breathtaking. The tears of relief, the releases, the people who would call their parents on the break, people in their lives they hadn't spoken to in 20 years.

Yes.

You know, it was just like the best hail. And to whatever extent you and Lester Levinson and others who've been doing this work for so long have been doing it, I want to just say thank you.

Well, thank you for continuing it and doing it yourself. I want to come back to one thing you said because it's important for everyone. The fact that you have— and this is for everyone listening to— the fact that you have moments of doubt And you grow from them, as opposed— we're in trouble if we don't question ourselves. Part of the reason we get so lost in the mind is we never question what the mind's saying to us. The fact that you're questioning it means that you're open to seeing truth. So even our moments of doubt are gifts to grow from, are supporting us in moving forward. So thank you for being that transparent.

Thank you. I want to end with a question for you, which—

Sure.

Is related to a TED Talk I was privileged enough to give a few years back. And it's actually something that's written on my sweatshirt. So a lot of people are listening to this now, not watching it necessarily, but on YouTube, if you are, you'll see I've got this hoodie on that says, I love my life. And the TED Talk, the through line of this TED Talk I gave a few years ago was this question. What would it be like if you chose to love your life? I really hope you're enjoying this episode of the Change Proof Podcast. If you've not yet gone out and gotten your own copy of Change Proof, it's not too late. You can get your copy right now by going to changeproof.com and not only getting the book and all the bonuses there, but getting access to our proprietary resilience assessment tool. It'll just take you 3 minutes to do, and it's something that will really help you to utilize the book even more effectively to create practices and rituals and habits that will increase your mental, emotional, physical, and even spiritual resilience for the long term. Again, go to changeproof.com/resilience. What if you chose to love your life?

Great question.

No matter what. And that's the, you know, the no matter what part I think is what folks do struggle with. So I'm going to ask you that question, Hal. Do you love your life? And if you do in fact love your life, why? Nothing like ending on a really small question, right?

No, no, no, it's a good question. I love life. I rarely— it rarely feels like my life. I just love life. The life that's living through you and me and everyone listening to this, through the plants, the animals, the stars, all of it. And basically, in my experience, life is in love with itself. Hmm. There's not a separate me and a you doing it. But the aspiration to love your life is a fantastic way to work on yourself or to work with yourself. The more you can love what is as it is, The more that love becomes a living part of your every moment. So loving life is a great place to start, and it can be difficult in the beginning, especially if you have challenges in your life. But if you're persistent, or resilient, as you would say, Mm-hmm. It— if you continue to, to do your best, To love what is as it is, you'll actually start to find ways to get out of the problems that you're struggling with. If you resist life, if you say no to life, if you curse life, or if you do the things that we usually do, all that does is it makes it more difficult. But you know what? You can even love that. If you fight with your mind when it's getting cranky, It likes that. It gets crankier. But if you can even love your mind when it's trying to run interference—

Yes.

And as you do that, it gets more cooperative. It tries to find ways to help you as opposed to sabotage you. And so loving life is a great direction, and it must have been a wonderful talk.

It's become a way of, a way of Being for us and for our company. And it's a message ultimately that we're the most connected to. I love what you said just now, that to love— I think someone said long, some years ago, when you love your life, your life will love you back. And, and I believe that. You bless, bless that which you want. The things that you bless bless you back. And the things we curse do the same.

Right.

A little warning with that too, but love what is as it is.

Yes.

Thank you for those words, Hal. And I so appreciate that you made the time for the conversation today. And our community will love this, no doubt. I will say, those of you that know someone that would benefit from listening or watching this, please feel free to share it with them. Leave comments, questions. You can do that at adammarkel.com/forum. Of course, if you want to leave a comment on iTunes, etc., we're always answering those as well. And just appreciate your feedback as always. So more than anything today, I hope that you, you go about your way in the world loving what is as it is, à la Hale Dwoskin. Thank you so much, Hale. Appreciate

it. Oh, thank you. Thank you for having me.

A blessing.

Thanks for listening, everyone. We hope you now have even more tools and greater insights to build resilience and become change-proof. Help us inspire others by sharing this episode and leaving your comments over at adammarkel.com/podcast. For more resilience tips and strategies, including support for building change-proof teams, visit adammarkel.com.