How To Provide Value Feedback From A Place Of Care With Sarah Conger

Life happens, and not always the way we expect it to. Every single day we face change, stress, and uncertainty. What if you could learn to thrive no matter what life throws your way? Resilience expert Adam Markel and his inspiring guests explore breakthrough strategies to fully embrace change and build the resilience required to become change-proof.

Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of the Change Proof podcast. I have a great guest today on the show. She started as a VGM group events planner, a role that was focused on creating memorable customer events. She was responsible for the annual Heartland Conference for many years, where they were challenged to make the conference bigger and better, focusing on industry trends, community building, and even homemade cookies. She moved from that into a role managing corporate projects. VGM Group was experiencing rapid growth, so the projects addressed the needs of a changing company, such as integrating a new customer relationship management tool and organizing a company-wide leadership conference. Today, she is the VP of Customer Experience for VGM Fulfillment, a fulfillment and logistics partner for CPAP providers. They're focused on quality, speed, accuracy, and all the things that keep CPAP providers up at night. In her free time, she is busy wrangling 2 little ones at home with another on the way. I know you're gonna love this conversation, so sit back and enjoy my discussion with Sarah Conger. Well, Sarah Conger, what insights. I just, I couldn't get enough of that conversation, and I felt like it was putting me on my growth edge. I had the feeling that I was learning something in the process, and it was, cultivating more depth of thinking for me. And that was just so enjoyable. I'm sure you all got a great kick out of that. We had some good laughs. And more importantly, I think Sarah really shared with us so many important things about— we talked about feedback and the importance of how feedback is given and how it is received and that relationship, how you create a context for it so that it is truly healthy. And I think we were able to get into the guts of it, if you will, In a way that I didn't expect. And I think it's really important because most situations that I see at work or even outside of the workplace where feedback is necessary just doesn't go well, just isn't artfully done. And, and for the most part, people resist it. They aren't interested in giving it or in receiving it because it is done without a lot of care. So today we got to talk about what that care looks like. We talk about a structure in particular, a way to provide it. And to create an environment where great feedback can only create safety, and safety will create a trust. And I love Sarah's story about how, in a context that I can identify with, that she was putting on an event and she was waiting for her keynote speaker, and the flight was being delayed and then ultimately canceled. And she was in charge of this big event, but ultimately her supervisor, the person that she reported to, Stepped in without speaking to her to solve that problem. And then she had the courage, I would say, and I think this— the intelligence after the event was done and everything had settled down to actually ask for feedback and to want to use that feedback as a way for her to grow and to learn and to understand where it was that her growth would create a different outcome in the future, or an outcome where her supervisor would have trusted her more. To actually solve that problem since it was hers to solve. And so we talked about what's ours to do, what's not ours to do, where should we be fixing things, and where do we wanna resist our urge to be a fixer? So she started out by telling us that she loves problems, and then the dominoes just began to fall after that. We talked about depletion and what it looks like to recharge and how that contributes to resiliency. especially in the times that we're living in right now where we're being depleted in so many different areas, mentally, emotionally, physically, and even spiritually, I would say. So I love this conversation. I know it's gonna be one that's gonna stand the test of time. If there are people in your world personally or professionally that would benefit from listening to some of what we talked about, because we did cover some things that were personal as well as things that were business oriented, please feel free to share this episode. We would love for you to do that. Actually, that's what helps the algorithm. To help us, to help this podcast, these episodes get in front of more people. So we thank you for that. If you could leave a rating, hopefully you'd give a five-star rating to this conversation. But whatever makes sense to you, makes sense to us. We appreciate the feedback, the feed forward. It helps us to bounce forward and always be moving forward. That feedback is super, super helpful in that regard. So we appreciate it. And of course, you could just leave that review on whatever platform it is that you consume this podcast. If you've got questions for either Sarah or myself, you can go to Adam. markel.com/podcast. Leave a comment or a question there, and it will be myself or Sarah answering that question for you. And lastly, if you'd like to check out your own level of resilience, a snapshot in time, very simple. Go to resiliencerank.com, and in 3 minutes, 16 questions later, you will get your immediate response looking at how resilient you are in those 4 different areas, the mental, emotional, physical, and even spiritual realms of resilience. It takes just 3 minutes. It's entirely free. It's our gift to you, resiliencerank.com. So I will say once again, thank you so much for the support that you give this podcast, for being a part of our community. And for now, I will just say ciao. Okay, Sarah. So I don't know how it feels to you to just have somebody rattle off, prattle off all of your accolades and, and your CV and all that good stuff. I kind of like it myself. It's a bit surreal too, to just from a standpoint of the time-space thing, you know, like How did that happen? So like, that seems like a million years ago, but it was only— and I think the pandemic has done that for a lot of people too, that we kind of lost a bit of that time orientation, if you will. But you've had an extensive career. I'm not gonna say how many years. If you wanna, you can. But you've had a really extensive career with the particular company that I know we'll talk about a little bit today, but we'll, I think, speak more in terms as to organizations in general. But you can, of course, bring VGM into the mix cuz a great representative. of what a lot of these principles of resiliency are. I had the great pleasure of keynoting a conference recently for VGM, which was a blast. So my first question to you is, outside of everything that you just heard me say about you, what is one thing that is not in that bio that you would love for people to know about you at the outset?

I love problems. That is probably one thing that's not part of my bio that You don't hear often, right? People— nobody likes problems. Keep away. Not me. I love a challenge of a problem. I'm always looking for a stretch assignment, something that can challenge me. I've been called a fixer before, which sometimes is good and sometimes is bad. I've learned that also makes it hard for me to say no often. But as I've gone through my career and had some various opportunities that you just spoke about, you really do learn about what you should and shouldn't fix. And especially when you're leading a team and leading people, it's so important to not just take on their problems, but to also help them, help your team grow in those instances where they can fix the problem. How would you approach it? And just maybe asking the right questions. To get them to ideate about what those potential solutions could be. But I definitely love to take on any kind of big problem that my team, you know, needs some help with, or the organization. That's definitely something I really enjoy.

I really hope you're enjoying this episode of the Change Proof Podcast. If you've not yet gone out and gotten your own copy of Change Proof, it's not too late. You can get your copy right now by going to changeproof.com and not only getting the book and all the bonuses there, but getting access to our proprietary resilience assessment tool. It'll just take you 3 minutes to do, and it's something that will really help you to utilize the book even more effectively to create practices and rituals and habits that will increase your mental, emotional, physical, and even spiritual resilience for the long term. Again, go to changeproof.com to get your copy today. I was just thinking when you said fixer, I had like an image in my head of Harvey Keitel in Pulp Fiction. For those

folks

that see the movie, then they know what I'm talking about here. And if not, there's something funny for you guys to go ahead and do a little research on. Somebody said— shared this question with me years ago, and it really sparked a lot of introspection for me. And in my leadership roles, I've used it as well, which is the question, what's mine to do? And the converse of that being true too, or being another question to consider, which is what's not mine to do? And I think as a leader, whether we're talking about in a organizational setting, or even, you know, in other areas of your life, like as a part of society, as a person in a family, maybe as a person that even has kids. And I know you have 2 little ones. It's like being a fixer and having to sort of modulate or discern, let's say, what is mine to do here and what is not mine to do. So I want to get into the nuance of that. So I wrote down what not to fix based on what you just said. So Have you learned that there are some things that you shouldn't fix? So what are those? Absolutely.

Especially when you talk about that kind of at-work mode, really being able to say, OK, I have to step away from this. This is not for me. That is so hard because I am so passionate about BGM and the work that I get to do. It's really— and I get FOMO. I like to be involved. And so anytime something comes my way, it is so hard to say no because that little person inside of me is like, but you're going to miss out on something. It's like, oh no, no, this will be okay. Somebody else can handle this and it's going to be a great opportunity for them to learn and grow and develop. And I was so fortunate to have that in my career when I was starting out here at VGM, was that trust in leaders that You can figure this out. And I had a leader tell me once, for starting out, it's hard. You don't have a ton of confidence right away, especially in a new role, and you don't know where your boundaries are. And so I had this leader tell me, no matter what happens, I will support you. And if it goes wrong, we will figure it out together. And that did a ton for me and my confidence and being able to make those tough decisions and solve those problems. And I learned so much more that way than being told, here's the prescribed way to solve this problem. So I really do try to take that to heart, especially when I have young folks reporting to me or working with me that I'm mentoring, and let them know, like, it's okay to make mistakes. That's one thing that BGM prides itself on, is it's okay to make mistakes here, and we'll figure it out together. And that really resonated with me. And I wanna make sure that I give those opportunities to my team and those that I'm around and influence, because I know how important that was in my growth. Other problems that I know that I should not fix— definitely it's hard to turn off when I go home and when the hubby is ranting about his own work problems. That's just what he needs and what he wants to do. And sometimes that's my employees too. So it's hard when those worlds kind of intermingle like that. It's— I'm at work and I'm problem solving and I'm gonna fix this. Then I go home and, okay, wait, I'm not fixing this. He just wants to vent and vent to somebody, you know, that he can trust. But it also works in vice versa. So making sure that I'm conscious of how I'm reacting to both my spouse when he's like, hey, I just need to vent. Okay, turn off problem solver mode. Just listen and be empathetic versus, okay, do you want me to help you solve this problem or are you just here to vent? That's also become a question that I ask of my friends, my family, my spouse, as well as my teammates. and peers, how do you want me to help you today? Are you here to vent, or you need me to help you solve the problem?

I think that is a profound place to begin any conversation from. I'm sitting with this for a second because as a parent, as a husband of a lot of years in a very healthy relationship, which I just think in terms of where I've messed up in my role or in that relationship or as a parent even with my kids, And I would say more often than not, where I have messed up is in overreaching on what it is that they actually want from me. And in part because I made an assumption at the start that what they wanted from me was to make their problem go away. And that may be a projection for sure as well because I get something out of that, being the problem solver, being the person who can come in and be the white knight or the savior or whatever. And the ego that's involved in that. I'm just sitting with that at the moment because I can feel that there's payoff to being that person that maybe that other person on the other side of that conversation, they weren't craving that. They didn't need that. But what they did want was simply to be able to, as you say, just get something off their chest, express something. So this is a good moment for people to take a breath maybe right there on both their relation, where this intersects with their own relationships. Personally, as well as professionally, because what would be the case if I just, you know, in any one of those scenarios that I, I was referring to a moment ago, you know, what if I had said to my 14-year-old daughter or to my wife or whomever it might have been in the moment, just tell me at the outset how I'm able to hold space or be here for you, right? Does that mean you want me to just listen and vent and get stuff out, or wanting me to actively participate in solving or helping you solve the problem? And if the context had been created at the outset for that with that question you just gave us, I, gosh, Sarah, I think I would have done better in certain areas. So I want to thank you for that.

Yeah, absolutely. I find that it works in reverse too. If somebody has come to you, you know, and they're pouring it all out at the end, okay, you know, thanks for sharing that. Do you want me to help you with that or you just wanted to let it off your chest? Like, either is fine and I'm happy to help any way that I can and Sometimes people just need to vent and they want to be the problem solver. They want to be that white knight, right? For their problem, their customer, their team, their family. Because I love how that feeling is, right? So I never wanna take that from somebody else either.

Yes. So that's a really interesting thing. So what would you say, without getting maybe into details, any detail you want, frankly, but has there been a problem that you've faced? in the roles of leadership that you've had. And I wanna, I definitely wanna talk about the current role, of course, but it's interesting cuz you started out in the event planning space for VGM. You were putting on the Heartland conference each year and probably a lot of other training and development kind of things. So maybe give us a scenario where you faced an intractable problem that either your, a mentor of yours helped you to just cut your teeth to solve, or where You've witnessed somebody else in that same scenario where it was tough to watch them struggle for a while. You know, my days as a lifeguard, it's like watching somebody in the water and you go, okay, so are they drowning or are they just, you know, like fighting it a little bit? You know, they might have swallowed a little water and they're a little scared, but are they gonna be able to pull through or do I need to put my buoy on and jump in the water in front of everybody and save their ass? Right? Like, which is it?

Yes. Yeah, absolutely. I have an example of where that actually happened to me, where I didn't want to be saved. I swallowed a little water and I was gonna be fine, but you know, my leader jumped in and pulled the trigger too quickly, I will say. So it was a Heartland Conference issue. We were planning the event and we were, everybody was there. We were executing the event and we had some weather issues. And as you know, getting to Waterloo, Iowa is not real easy all the time.

Not the easiest thing in the world.

No, it's certainly a challenge. And our keynote, the flight kept getting delayed and changed and eventually canceled. So they weren't going to show up on time. And like those burning fires, those are the problems that really get me going. I love that stuff.

You love that stuff?

Oh, no, I do. So I'm just thinking, yes, this is going to be great. I'm going to

Did you just grab the mic? Did you just literally get up there and do it? I just want to know. I say this only because if you guys are— if you check this out on YouTube, you'll see Sarah just has this incredible energy. And when I first met you was during mic check when I was there for the conference and I saw you get up and do your— you know, there was something you were doing and I thought, oh my God, this is a dynamo. We need to put the mic on her and I'll sit in the seat and watch.

Well, thank you. You are certainly too kind. But those are the kinds of problems that I thrive on, right? So, you know, I'm thinking about, okay, here we could do this and we could do that. And I'm trying to decide how best to solve that. Like, this is a big problem. We have all these people that are showing up the next morning at 8:00 AM and they're expecting this and it is 5:00 PM. So I have a short window to communicate to everybody and figure out the plan B and work that all out. So I'm working through this problem and it's a very visible problem, right? So a lot of problems with event planning are behind the scenes. Nobody really notices this one. People are gonna, they're gonna notice if, you know, nobody takes the stage. So it's

a visible problem.

Right. So I'm thinking through that and before I even had an opportunity to say, hey, here's what I really think we should do and this is how I think we should tackle it. You know, my leader jumped in and was like, okay, let's assemble. Like, she went into problem-solving mode, and because she knew, like, this is a big deal. And I was really disappointed. It really hurt. I was like, you know what, I could have done that. I had a lot of those same ideas and plans, and why wasn't I given the opportunity to do this? I felt like I had, you know, Proven myself as a good leader. It wasn't the first year that I was running the conference. So, you know, how was there a missing trust?

Yeah.

What happened? Right?

Right.

So we got through it. Everything was fine. The keynote eventually showed up and gave the presentation and everything went on and it was all worked out well. And after the fact, it took a while. I was really nervous to have the conversation, but I really wanted to know. It's hard to ask for that kind of feedback sometimes.

Yeah.

About yourself. So I went to that leader and I said, what could I have done differently to be the leader in that situation? Is there something that I need to do from a professional development standpoint to grow myself so that I have those opportunities in the future? Like, I really felt like I could have taken on this problem and solved it. You know, what feedback can you give me so that I can improve and get better so I can be trusted later. And at the end of the conversation, it was really wonderful. I got some great feedback about what I can do and what I could have done at that time in my career to grow, as well as, you know, an apology from my leader. Like, hey, you know, I'm sorry. We could have done this together. You're absolutely right. And it could have been more of a coaching tag-along moment versus, oh, I'm gonna take your problem and fix it moment.

Right. Wow. You did. That's the second time you did it. That's great, Sarah. I hope people, like, literally are taking note of this because this is really seasoned advice. And I'm sure there are both in our audience, for sure, people that are leading folks and probably maybe lead in that way, you know, with good intentions, of course, putting the company first. Of course. You know, all that stuff. You know, I, I've got the experience and, you know, I'll show this person through my own efforts how to do something, and then they'll learn from that experience. But this is, I think, a lot of what we see in the workplace today, that people, especially in millennial and Gen Z, in that demographic, which is, I think by 2030 will constitute the majority, the workforce. And it's somewhere between 2025 and 2030. So it's coming soon that money, while important reason to work, but there's more to it than that. And the feeling that you are growing, the get to understand that you're actually growing through the experience. And that there's trust. Because when you don't feel as though your manager, your leader trusts you, it creates that conflict. So what was amazing is that you didn't just chew on it or stow it or go and, and vent about it, but rather you went to your supervisor and said, hey, what could I have done differently? Where was my growth edge or opportunities? You said to learn some things that would enable me to be trusted in that moment later. I imagine that catch the leader a little by surprise.

It did, definitely.

Yeah, that's my point. You don't get a lot of people, I think, going to ask the question, framing the inquiry in just that way. And I think what that did for your leader was it created a growth moment for her, frankly, because she could see clearly that without maybe thinking or intending it to be so, she deprived you of something, you know, that was there. Not necessarily like I earned it kind of thing,

Right.

But rather, it was kind of a missed opportunity.

Yep.

Yeah. So did that improve or change your relationship? And, you know, from that point?

Oh, absolutely. I mean, we've always had a great relationship, which is something that I really love and strive for, but it just made us closer, more open all the time. There was so much regular feedback and just Brutal honesty sometimes, which—

Yeah.

That's how you get the good stuff, right? You gotta just be honest with people. That's how they're gonna get better. And I think when you come at it with positive intent, like, I am telling you this not to hurt you or to break you down, but because I want you to learn and grow— that's when you can have that kind of relationship where you know you're gonna get the good and the bad, and it's It's all coming because they want you to succeed. That's when you've got a great relationship.

Yeah. Feedback, I wanna lean into that a little bit here. It's so important. And I think Marshall Goldsmith likes to refer to it as feedforward, you know, as this concept of we are moving forward, which we dig cuz in our work with resiliency training, we, we're always talking about how it is that we don't bounce back, but we bounce forward. So it's additive. Whereas criticism or judgment is subtractive. Another close friend of mine used to say that when you give people feedback that feels like judgment, it's like you're stealing something from them. You're like being a thief. You're, you're stealing their self-esteem. You're stealing something really valuable from them.

Mm-hmm.

Whereas when you provide feedback in a healthy way, you're giving something to them. So I'd love to get a sense of what have you learned about feedback? Because in your relationship with this particular manager, Clearly, you guys just— you established the ground rules and the context for that to happen and for it to be given and received in the way that, like you said, with love and not with judgment. But I would say it is a very small percentage of those kind of relationships in the environments that we've seen in too many industries to count where feedback is given and received in that way. In fact, more often than not, it's like, you know, somebody has an annual review, and otherwise the kind of feedback they get is more like just always, you know, what they did wrong. They're never really interested in feedback. In fact, if they're gonna get feedback, somebody says, hey, I'd like to give you some feedback, it's almost like your stomach turns inside out because now you know what you're about to hear is what you did wrong or how you suck or—

Yeah, it's gonna be bad.

It's gonna be bad.

It's the principal's office. Like, oh no.

It's the principal's office, right? Exactly. So you're already defensive.

Yes.

So share with us if there's some nuance to this and where in your current role or the roles that you've had Have you been able to cultivate this feedforward, this really positive way of providing people with the learnings?

Yeah, so I really learned a ton about feedback in my role with corporate projects. So a lot of my responsibility in that role was working very closely with our CEO and his sort of right hand. We just had this list of projects, right? Stuff that needs to get done that's really important for the company, but it's really nobody's job. So that was my job, was to do all these things on the CEO's list. And so working through these projects and tons of feedback that I received, as well as I challenged myself in one of those years as a goal, I set it out, shared it with my leader at the time. I want to not only provide feedback to people that I'm working with, That are working under me, my direct supervisors or my direct reports. But I want to challenge myself to give feedback up because that is really hard to do. And in my role, that was something that I needed to get better at and I needed to be able to do because these projects that I was working on were pretty high level, working with a lot of the presidents of our different business units or divisions. And being able to provide feedback in the right way was something I wanted to learn how to do better. And so I learned all the ways to do it wrong before we figure out how to get it semi-right. But to your point, it all starts with being in the right place. You gotta set it up. So that it's coming from that place of positive intent. And sometimes I found that you have to ask, I have some feedback, would you be open to hearing it? Because if they're not open to it at that time, it's immediate defense mode, right? So there's no point in starting that. Okay, then I still wanna have this conversation. Maybe we can catch up next week about it, right? Yeah. Just pivoting a little bit and trying a different You know, method of delivering and receiving the feedback. We went to, uh, in that same role, we went to a leadership retreat with a whole bunch of our divisional presidents. And one of the things on the educational agenda there was a 360 review.

Sure.

So we're all reading our results and immediately everybody's like, I don't do that. That's not me. Like, absolutely not. Like, these people are all wrong. Or that was a certain situation. Like, it's— you can argue anything away, right?

Sure.

And so if you really desire the feedback, I think that's part of it. You have to want it, and you have to ask, I think, trusted individuals to give it to you. Because there are some people that are out to— maybe don't have your best interests at heart. And so they may not be who you want to get feedback from. It's people that you trust, that you work with, who are really going to tell you and ride shotgun with you and let you know where your blind spots might be. So through that— That's a great way to put it. Yeah, it was really helpful to hear how, you know, other leaders were receiving feedback because sometimes you feel like, oh, it's just me. It's like, no, everybody thinks like this. So here we just have to get together and come together. And how can you take that and Digest it. Take some time with it. Like your initial reaction is gonna be, no, that's not me. But read it over a couple different times. Put it down. Put it away. Then re-reflect on it because there are likely things you know that you think aren't you that are. And I'm a weirdo. I love feedback. I'm always asking for it. I want to know the good, the bad, the ugly because I really want to get. Better. I want to grow.

Yeah.

That's one of my goals, always continue learning and growing.

I think setting, as you said, if you're gonna create an environment where feedback is something people are open to, of course, it's helpful to have people that are in that environment that are like you and that are open to it, that want it, crave it, etcetera. And I think for the most part, most people are not like you in that respect. And I'm generalizing a little bit here, but I think a lot of people are resistant to feedback. And in part, my theory, and we do workshops about this pretty frequently, and we've got one coming up with the city of Palo Alto on this exact topic, that the only reason we're doing that particular workshop on feedback is because out of another workshop, that was one of the areas that they said, you know, we just don't, there's not a lot of trust, or that there's trust issues and that people don't feel psychological safety. And rooting it out as to, you know, what's like the first domino kind of thing. And for people to feel trust, they have to feel safe. And for people to feel safe, they have to be in an environment where they don't think that their agenda to succeed is in conflict with someone else's agenda to succeed. And feedback is that really at the grassroots level, right? It's boots on the ground kind of stuff that if you can't tell, like, if you're, and, you know, Sports analogies are great for lots of different things, whether you play sports or not. But it's like if you're on a baseball field or on a basketball court or something, you would never imagine that a team that wants to win wouldn't give— that the teammates wouldn't give each other feedback about something because then they would be less likely to win if they didn't say, hey, by the way, you wanna slide over a little bit because it's likely the ball's gonna— remember last time that guy right up the middle? Yeah. You weren't there. Remember that? Oh yeah. Yeah. You're right. Forgot about that. Move over and, you know, you're in a better position. But somehow in the corporate world, that same situation is different. You know, like, this person's, like, maybe trying to sabotage me, or I can't really trust what their motives are. You know, who are they? You know, they mess up all the time, or I don't know. It's all that stuff. So to create an environment first that where feedback is not the exception to the rule, but it is the rule. And that it goes in all directions. Like you said, it goes up, it goes down, it goes sideways, side to side. I think that's really a big deal. So I'm gonna say that we found that works for us in terms of, you know, like what you said earlier, setting it up right is to create— it's kind of funny to say it this way, but it's a bit of a structure for those conversations that starts, that has 3 statements. And the first statement is, what works for me is. So what's working for me, or what works for me, or what worked for me is that you put together this amazing event. Mm-hmm. You found this incredible speaker. You put, you know, everything was on the right track that, you know, like all worked for me. And didn't work for me was that the speaker's not able to get to the event now. And that, you know, like the storm happened and the planes canceled and, you know, that didn't work for me. And I guess what also didn't work for me was I didn't get the sense that you were like on it. And with it being like that, the whole thing's gonna become transparent tomorrow morning. What I read from that situation was that I needed to step in and kind of like figure it out. And so it didn't work for me that I didn't get the sense that you were already 3 steps ahead in the planning for all that kind of thing. So what could have been done differently is that, you know, while you were solving for that, maybe I guess you could have said to me, hey, I got this. I got us. You don't have to worry. That would have like quelled my inner— and that's the feedback I might give to you. And then you might give me the feedback that you gave her, which is that what worked for me was that you were brilliant in, like, you were right there for the company and for all of us. We all ended up looking good, right? But what didn't work for me was that you didn't ask me whether I was already looking to solve it and had already made a plan and maybe even whether you trusted me to, to execute on that. So what could have been done differently in that situation was that, and so on and so forth. I think when the structure, while it seems a little mechanical, we found is that you always start with the positive. the sort of the rules of road are you don't start with, hey, you know what? When you did that, that really annoyed me. Or you messed up and we need to fix it. Because that's the way people are used to getting it. Right? So you start with something positive that you don't make it personal. I mean, well, I should say you make it personal in the sense that this is my perception.

Yeah.

Because when you say something worked for you, it's not whether it worked. It's what worked for you. If you say something could be done differently, You're not saying it could be better because you don't know. Nobody knows.

Yeah.

It's a judgment call, right? But it's your perception. And I think when that's in the context, then people feel safe because it's not like, you know, the God, you know, like, it's coming from the heavens and, you know, this is the gospel here. It's more like, you know, we're having a conversation and this is how I was processing all of this at the time and what I feel about it now. And this is what I think could be done differently. And it goes both in both directions.

I love that script, that like that 3 statements. I think that would really help people deliver feedback too, right? Like it sets up the recipient in a really good place, but it's just as hard to be the feedback deliverer as it is to be the feedback recipient. So having a great like script to set yourself up for success, I love that.

Because I'm just so bought into what you said, honestly, that if we had environments where the relationship was more like the one with you and your manager, man, I mean, so many things that would otherwise be get, you know, gnawing at people so that they're not happy, they don't feel fulfilled, or, you know, always kind of one eye on the next, where they find a better opportunity kind of stuff. I mean, that would just wouldn't exist in a relationship where they were getting the growth that they crave. Yeah. And they were also giving that opportunity to others. That would be great. I so love what you said about that. And I wanna ask you in our final couple of minutes here, just about the concept of resiliency, like at VGM or any of your specific roles. What is resiliency looking like these days? You know, so many people, they hear the word resilience now. I think they think it's also being co-opted as a word that means suck it up. It's just another way of saying, hey, we gotta be more resilient. It's like, okay, so you're asking me to do more with less again, aren't you? Or whatever you're asking.

Definitely. I can speak to that in my current role. I was brought into our fulfillment business unit to upgrade our system. So we have one system that runs the whole kind of business front to back end, and we needed to change. Our other was outdated, and part of my role was to also oversee our customer service team. So they are the only front-facing piece of our business. They get the good, the bad, and the ugly. They get to The, you know, the white knight and the cheerleader when we win, and they take the brunt when it is ugly. And our system conversion, as you could probably imagine, did not go perfectly, as many don't. And it was brutal. It was a tough 6 weeks for that customer service team. And talk about resiliency. They just—they looked beat down sometimes, and like they were just like, "How much longer is this gonna last?" And I was relatively new to that team, and having gone through that kind of battle together has really brought us closer as a team. They certainly trust me more as a leader, and it just—it took this. whole huge effort. I didn't know a ton about their job role. I, like, I had had them for 2 months before we did this major conversion. And so it was like, I gotta jump in here and do the role with them. I need to understand exactly where they're coming from, how they're dealing with this, so that now I can help them really work through this. This is a hard time for us. And I need them to know it's going to get better. I know it's going to get better. But having zero trust in me, they don't even know me. Like, it's really hard to get from this place really stinks and this job just got incredibly more difficult to, hey guys, it's going to be okay.

I promise. Exactly. I'm just laughing because I just— yeah.

And it was such a cool thing to be part of. And I just feel like it was, you know, the team and them wanting to serve the customer, their drive, their desire to not let, you know, the customer down. Yeah. And I am a very positive person. And so just trying to bring out any kind of wins and positivity about how things are going, how the team is reacting to it. But being there and just offering any kind of assistance that I could at the time was just— made the world of difference. But I think, you know, going through that battle together, right? Like, it's— you're in the trenches, you're really going through something hard, and coming out on the other side, like, really makes you resilient. It really does. And now my team, we just on the 1st of August implemented another new system. And it couldn't have gone better. And the team was so bought in and they're like, yeah, this is gonna be no problem. Right? Like you could just tell, like from the first time we did it to this second implementation, like—

It's like, bring it on.

Yes. Attitudes were different. Like they had more grit. They were more resilient. They were like, yeah, we got this. Yeah, we can do it. It's been really cool.

You said something at the beginning, which I wrote down. It says, sometimes I have to step away. And I think that's also a, a tool when we think about about how it is that we develop resilience, it's not often by just continuing to ask your mind, your body, other parts of you, I suppose, your emotional body state for more when you're experiencing this depletion. That, I think, is the paradigm shift that, that our research has shown, but that it's that moment, like you said, to be able to step away that helps you to create a, a reset or a an opportunity to recharge, and then moving forward seems to be easier. And that first event having been so difficult, I can see how that period between the end of that and the start of a new one gave them this reset or recharge time. Yeah. So that when the new challenge came up, they were more ready to meet that challenge. They had the energy for it, already knew that the outcome, you know, they could accomplish whatever that outcome was gonna be, but a more seamless integration of the change. So yeah, I think we've gotta be ever more cognizant of the fact that we're more depleted than we know. I think that's just true of all of us and the people that we work with and the people that we lead. They're a lot more depleted than they're letting on, than they may be aware of consciously themselves, but also that they're, you know, letting on. And I think if we can see people in that realistic light, then it's not a question of can we take stuff off their plate or give them less? Because we all know, depending on the market, the environment,

that's

just not happening. It's more like, where are we making these opportunities for reset, for that recharge so that they're not more depleted, but also being tasked with more? It's that they're ready for that next incremental growth moment. So, gosh, I love this conversation, Sarah. I love your energy and the insights you provided today. Thank you for that.

Thank you. I have also enjoyed our conversation. It's been a pleasure.

Is there one thing that you do on a ritual basis? Because we're constantly tracking the leaders' rituals for their recharge. Is there one thing you do on a daily or a routine basis that is for your own reset?

I love exercise. Before I was pregnant— I'm very pregnant. I don't know if you knew that when you met me last time, but I'm due next month, so I'm really excited. But when I'm not pregnant, I run or walk or get like— I need fresh air. I got to get outside. I try to get outside for at least 30 minutes and walk or run or something, and it just, it changes my whole mental state. It helps me so much. A better leader at work, a better mom to my kids, a better spouse to my husband. I need it.

Yeah. Just being in nature and getting that fresh air, that is, again, it's the thing that's so obvious to us, and yet every time we just do it, just walk off into the woods for 20 minutes or Whatever. Go sit in front of the, you know, out in sunshine. And that's all we're really talking about. When we think about operationalizing resilience, one major component of that is simply what you do each day throughout the day that create those pockets for a recharge moment. Because you're just continuing. It's a bit like, to change the analogy or create an analogy for this, it's like a bank account. So with your bank account, if you make more deposits than you make withdrawals, you have a surplus. It's a wonderful thing.

Yes.

And With interest, you know, interest, it grows. But when you make more withdrawals than deposits, you have a deficit. We know that we can't do much with a deficit in a bank account. It's the same with our energy and we're with a lot of, you know, aspects of what we need to succeed in at home and at work. And you just can't be running at a deficit and expect that you're gonna do well for very long. Right. So with that, again, I just so appreciate your time today, Sarah, and people will be able to find out more in the show notes about VGM, about your role. And if people have questions, in fact, I'll say this to my audience right now. You can go to adammarkel.com/podcast and leave a comment or a question. If it's a question for Sarah, I will get that question to her. We will answer it directly. And it is us. It is not an AI. It's just ordinary human thinking and response, which is, I think, what we crave a lot. So Sarah, thank you again. I really appreciate your time today.

Thank you.

Thanks for listening. We hope you now have even more tools and greater insights to build resilience and become change-proof. Remember to leave a review on Apple Podcasts, and you may be featured in an upcoming episode. For more resilience tips and strategies, including support for building change-proof teams, visit adammarkel.com. To get your own free resilience assessment, go to rankmyresilience.com.