Setting Boundaries With Crystal Castille-Cromedy

Life happens, and not always the way we expect it to. Every single day we face change, stress, and uncertainty. What if you could learn to thrive no matter what life throws your way? Resilience expert Adam Markel and his inspiring guests explore breakthrough strategies to fully embrace change and build the resilience required to become change-proof.

Hey everybody, welcome back to another episode of the Change Proof podcast. I'm your host, Adam Markel, and I'm so thrilled to be in the seat today for my guest. She is absolutely amazing. Her name is Crystal Castile Cromedy, and she is currently the SMD of Talent and Head of HR Americas for Heinz. Crystal is an HR exec with more than 25 years of experience across a range of industries and markets. You're gonna find out very quickly just how astute this person is, how intelligent, how dialed in and sensitive, and just has a tremendous awareness and understanding of what's happening in the workplace. Sit back, relax, and enjoy my conversation with Crystal. Okay, Crystal, so you have an impressive CV. I read a lot of them, I meet a lot of people, and I'm impressed. I know a lot of the people that are listening to this right now are going, she's got a lot of things she's done. She's a person to be in the seat that she's in, and all that good stuff. But my question is really, it's related to your bio, which is to say, what's not part of the bio? What's one thing? Because a million things, right? But what's one thing that isn't in your introduction that you would love for people in this moment to just know about you?

Yeah. I mean, thank you so much, Adam, for having me here. The question I get all the time is, how do you do it? You know, what's not in the bio is that I'm a wife of more than 30 years and that My— I have children. I have 3 kids. You know, they're 32, 30, and 23. One of the questions I get is, you don't have kids in their 30s. And I'm like, yes, I do. And so that's a compliment that I love. But that's still a question about, you know, how do you do it and how have you done it? And that's a loaded question, right? Because you don't just wake up one day. Yeah. You don't just wake up one day having done it. And but without peeling all the layers of my psychology and all those different things and how I was raised and my upbringing and my parents, there is something about perseverance And resilience that is part of that story for me, right? I wake up every day self-motivated and energized to just be better than I was the day before. And part of that means I have to unpack and break down what my challenges are. How do I be prepared and ready for those challenges? And how do I do so in a way that's the most productive and proactive for me, myself, my family, those that I care about, my friends? That's what's missing is the how. I think your CV can definitely look backward and sort of tell you about all of your accomplishments, but they don't necessarily tell you what you had to experience in order to get there.

Oh, my. Well, you just confirmed or reaffirmed for me why I wanted to have you on the show. So, bravo and thank you. I want to lean into that now, too, just to get a sense because I am also a parent and have kids in a similar age. Proximity. How did you do it? I mean, and to be more specific, because like you said, there's a million things day to day, but can you chunk down your philosophy on some level of how you were able to be a mom and a wife and like have an epic career that is still ongoingly productive and adding value in the world and all that while you're also taking care of other humans that needed a lot of care, as we know?

Yeah. I mean, for me, it's— I mean, I grew up being the youngest of 4. So I think that there's something about the pecking order in which, you know, you grew up, you know, has a type of imprint on the kind of adult or responsible human you're going to be. But because of that, I felt like I had to do a lot on my own. It was very important to me growing up that I could achieve things on my own without needing help. And honestly, that's kind of how I approach my relationships, my marriage, my parenthood, is that, you know, I could do this, I could do it on my own. And one of the things I had to learn in some Also, after some good advice was to ask for help, and that was a hard thing for me to do. You know, it's one thing to say, yes, I understand how important help is, but it's another thing to practice that. And doing so really made a difference for me, whether that was asking my husband for more help or asking for family members to lean in, or friends, or advice, or other things that I thought I should be self-sufficient at. I really had to learn that I didn't have to be. And some of us wear a Superwoman complex with us. There's a mask that we live with every day. And I'm not saying that I don't have that mask today. It's just not the same mask that it used to be. It serves a different purpose. And so that's one of the things that I try to implement in my life, which is where could I use some help? I don't have to necessarily be between a rock and a hard place to need help. But something that would be helpful to help me go further and to explore other possibilities and maximize my potential is something that I definitely did. I think that it's a game changer when you think about juggling multiple things at one time, especially if you're trying to grow a career and grow a family and grow a marriage. Those are all 3 very distinct different things.

They are. And since this podcast, we sometimes— we talk holistically about resilience and about change. So it gets in the area of all the things that are personal relationships and parenting. health, et cetera. But it primarily is a show designed to talk about work and in that context discuss this chunk of our lives that we spend working. So I'm going to ask you, when it comes to asking for help, I think people, if they've got a spouse or a partner, they can understand how it might be difficult even with that upbringing and sort of that programming to be like, I'm going to ask that person in my life for help at the risk of seeming weak or seeming vulnerable or not being all the things that you make yourself up to be. And I And I can see that people would also be thinking, but at work, it's different. At work, to be vulnerable, to be weak, or to just have somebody's view of me change because somehow I don't have all the answers, et cetera, especially as a leader. So my question to you is, can you say more about and maybe even provide some anecdote or an instance where you really, you did that at work even though that was A, not your instinct to do, and B, it's work and it's different context there? Yeah.

Yeah, I've got 2 examples, if that's okay. I'll take you through. And this is really just kind of still under the same umbrella of being vulnerable, as you mentioned, asking for help at work. You really want people to feel or to think that you're self-sufficient, that you can get things done. And so I agree that asking for help in various, you know, situations may be different. However, at work, there are, like I said, there are 2 real pivotal either pieces of advice or moments, you know, that really mattered, you know, in my development. One is the best piece of advice I've ever gotten from a leader. at work was to create boundaries. Not, you know, the most earth-shattering piece of advice in the sense that you've heard of it before. But the difference maker for me was probably because of where I was at that stage of my career. I wasn't early in my career. I was certainly really trying to climb that ladder. I was at a pivotal moment with respect to my growth potential. And I was getting ready to actually move to the UK because I was being considered for an expat assignment. And the advice came on just at the beginning of, hey, if you, if you get this opportunity, you're going to have to create some boundaries. for yourself. Like, you cannot do it all. And even if you can do it all, you shouldn't do it all. And I thought, oh, that's an affront to, you know, my ethos. I'm very self-sufficient. I can get it done. I'm reliable. You can call me at any time. I will respond to you 2 seconds later. You can count on me. And it took a while for me to really appreciate that sage advice. And that's exactly what it was, because it got to a point where I was like, I can't keep this up, you know, even if I wanted to. I realized that I shouldn't keep it up because there's going to be costs somewhere else. I'm going to drop And that's not, you know, the reputation that I want for myself. And so, I started to practice setting boundaries, which, you know, was— I wasn't successful, you know, the first time out. You know, I would carve out time in my calendar, or I'd try to tell people no, or whatever the case may be, not take calls after a certain time of the day. And when you work in a global, you know, role, as I did before, it's very tough to say, I'm turning off the clock. But you have to understand, you know, what the opportunity cost is and what the real cost is to you as a performer. Yeah. That's one piece of advice that I would give anyone, a real example about why setting boundaries is so important. And even if you're not perfect at it the first time out the gate, you got to keep trying. You got to build that muscle. You've got to create the habits that are going to work for you. And it's, it's definitely served me well, you know, thereafter.

So we're going to get to the second one, but I want to know more about this one just from the standpoint of like, where did you fail at that? Because, and by the way, I don't think that that's really widely given advice, at least not in my world, and having researched this for a while, that a leader or others would say, hey, create boundaries, in part because boundaries are really difficult, especially among high achievers. It's like one of those paradoxes, I suppose.

Yeah.

You know, but where did you really fail at doing that? Can you know? And how did you correct and continue, I guess? Yeah.

I'll tell you, it's a funny story. It is a catch-22 because on one hand, like you said, as a high achiever, you want, you want to build a rapport and a reputation for when people think of you, this is what I want them to think. I want them to know I'm a strong member of the team, a member of the team that they can't do without. And like I said, reliable, responsive, and all of that. And I remember one time there is one of my leaders contacted me at 10 or 11 o'clock at night and very, very strong relationship I had, you know, with this person. He could call me any time and a really mature relationship where I didn't have to make excuses. He didn't have to make excuses. If he needed something, he didn't have to ask me how my weekend was first or whatever. And so, you know, he called or he— I think he emailed me actually, you know, 10, 11 o'clock at night. I responded and went to bed. And the next day, you know, he goes, hey, how's it going? And I'm like, pretty good. And he goes, you know, yeah, I sent you a request. I go, yeah, I responded. He goes, did you read what you responded? You know, did you read your response? And I'm like, yes, I'm pretty sure I read it. And he goes, I don't think so. It was gobbledygook. And I go, what do you mean? And so I had to go back and read it, and it was illegible. Illegible.

Wow.

You know, and I'm like, I can't even make out— I know that there's a sentence structure here. I can't tell you what I was trying to say. That was a moment that, quite honestly, I was really lucky that it was him and not some other person. And I question whether or not I would have responded to another person. But that was a moment for me where I said, okay, I was tired. I'd been up most of the night working on some things, cranking it out, burning the midnight oil, really demonstrating that I'm a hard worker.

All that good stuff, right? Everything you just said is like a positive spin on workaholism or whatever you want to— yeah, exactly.

Call it what you want it. Call it what you want. All right.

Determination versus fear.

The catch-22, right? And so in that moment, I said, oh, I'll never do that again. I'll never do that again. Okay, what is that? And, you know, that is one— it could be a number of things. It's not just about not responding, you know, late in the evening. Working myself to the point where I was working late in the evening, I was tired. I should have gone to bed hours ago. So prioritizing my rest and other things to make me better, you know, so I could be my best. And then, you know, I just didn't like that feeling of— I felt like I was And, you know, I had to make an excuse about why, you know, I showed up that way. And I didn't like it at all. So not only am I a workaholic, but I'm my own worst critic, you know, when it comes to, you know, my work product and other things. And so that was a point where I said, okay, I won't do that again. What do I need to do so that I, you know, protect myself from being in that vulnerable space? Because I didn't like it. But at the same time, I was able to laugh about it. I'm laughing about it now, but I was able to eventually laugh about it. Good. And say, wow, you know, I'm not Superwoman, and why am I trying to be again? And, you know, like, hey, you know, we all make mistakes, and, you know, you don't worry, I won't do that again. But if you do see something, you know, from me like that, just know, give me a little space. And so it was great, you know, not only for our relationship— it wasn't the worst thing in the world to happen, but it was an awakening, you know, of sorts.

Right. Is there a trigger to catch yourself now? Even now, I'm assuming, because this is Yeah, because we're baked the way— I, I really think on a large— in many ways, we're baked the way we are. And then we, by being self-aware, like you said, not self-unaware, we have the ability to recognize when we fall into a pattern, when we, we found our little needle in the, in the groove of the record and it's skipping in that same spot. And you go, oh, there I am doing that thing. I've maybe— I haven't done it in 10 years, but there I am again, right?

Yeah. No, I definitely have those moments. Yeah. I mean, for me, one of the things that I continue to work at today is choosing time over attention. I'm very specific about what requires my time versus what requires my attention. And what requires my attention may take a little bit longer. I need more headspace. I need to think a little longer sometimes versus things that I can quickly, very quickly do. And so, I just try to separate it that way, and that kind of helps govern how fast I respond to something or not. And certainly the things that I need to think about longer, I intentionally do not respond even if I have an answer. I don't respond immediately. I'm not saying to everything. If I don't respond immediately, I'm very purposeful in why I haven't done that. And so that creates a space where I'm setting expectations for others about what they can expect from me. And so you may have heard, you know, an old saying like teaching people how to treat you. That's really— What the principles are that I kind of put in place. Other things, if I can respond really quickly, move on, and it's out of my head, then I'll do that, or I'll try to delegate that to where the best work is best placed. Sometimes I'm not the person that's best placed to do the work, and so I really try to be very active in doing that so that people can take the work. They learn and grow and become self-sufficient. Helps me out. I can start focusing on other things. And so that's one of the things I do is I purposefully Not respond immediately to everything.

And that sounds to me like great communication. I'm saying that on purpose because I see in, in our work, the work at Workwell, and, and even in my keynote speaking and the work I do with organizations in that regard, I see a lot of really bad or poor communication. I don't wanna use the word bad, but just really ineffective communication. People that could simply, as you say, help other people to understand, train, teach them how to, you know, sort of the ABCs of me so that the communication is much more effective because it's, it's clear. So if they know, for example, hey, if it's something that's gonna require my focus and attention, it's gonna take me longer to respond as opposed to something that I might be able to tick off really quickly. I'm a fan of like when somebody sends me an email and I know I'm not gonna get to it because I've actually gotta, first of all, read it, digest it, come up with a thoughtful response. That's how I am too. I don't wanna, you know, otherwise. I will just say received. And so, you know, and sometimes, thank you. You know, thank you, and I'll get back to you. Okay. Sometimes I might say, I'm not gonna probably get to this or get back to you for a week. You know, like, if it's— we need to have a conversation. Yeah. You know what I mean? So, and that literally takes like 10 seconds. So, I have personally part of my, my own spiritual, my path in life is to be more patient and patient with myself and patient with other people. So, even when I hear people say, I'm buried in my emails, I'm like, If you saw what my email looked like, I mean, like, I don't know how buried you could be. Like, sometimes it's just a matter of going through them and going, not now, not now, not now, not now. But it's not good communication when other people don't know that that's your process.

Yeah.

Or you haven't told them, hey, thank you, got it, get back to you, you know? Yeah. And it's like, what does that take to just close the loop? And create that clean communication versus the ghosting or the silence that often exists, right? Are you seeing that? Do you see that among, in and among your peers too, right? I mean—

Yeah. I mean, I think it's a couple of different things. One is stakeholder management. You know, it is just good etiquette, so to speak, or just good stakeholder management to acknowledge when someone sent you something that you received it, or, hey, I won't, I'm going on vacation. I mean, I get to this until next week, but this person can help you in the interim. You don't forego those things. You know what I mean? But I think that that's— you need to do that. I mean, I think that just— I agree with you, that's good strong communication, and not everyone does it, right?

No.

If I'm in the headspace of boundaries, right, and I'm on vacation— and believe me, I practice this and I've flunked at it too sometimes because I'm picking my battles— but if I know that I'm meant to be on vacation and I've got an out of office and it already says that I'm, you know, not available, and something comes through I need to let other people handle it. Business will manage. They'll manage without me. And I need to also let other people know that they can make decisions without me. And so that's like an example of where, you know, like, I can let that kind of ride. And you already have my automatic response because, you know, I'm out of town.

Exactly.

But when I'm okay, like something's very urgent, you know, and, you know, I need to pipe into that because I see things spinning, you know, and not necessarily getting resolved, then I might pick and choose when to to inject myself into the, the conversation. But at the same time, I'm still giving you an idea that I'm not going to just respond to you 2 seconds after you sent me a note, right? You have to learn that. And I guess to the— you know, I haven't gotten to the second point yet, but on the way there, imagine a lot of people, for example, that setting boundaries means saying no. It's one thing under the boundary umbrella, but it is not the only tool in the boundary umbrella, although an important one, you know, because sometimes no means Like you said, maybe not at the moment, or when do you need this? Or I can do this by Friday. Is that okay? Versus I don't think I'm the best placed person. I'd like to put you with the person who I think is the best placed person to get this done. You can move on and things can continue to sail. And so that to me, it's okay to say no or no-ish. And I think that the younger you are in your career, you may feel like you can't say no, that that's going to be somehow career limiting because you said no. And to me, it's the art of saying no. There's more than one way to say no. Oh, so anyway, go ahead, jump in.

There's 2 great titles there for you. I'm like gonna become your agent here because there's 2 great titles for a book or a podcast or something else or a keynote talk, like No-ish. So I think No-ish is just absolutely killer. And The Art of Saying No, which maybe there's a book title with that already. But you gave us so much right there. So I would love to get to that second example. And then I wanna trail back to one other thing regarding the example that you set in some of those behaviors that you were just sharing with us. As well.

Sure. Do you want me to get to the second point now?

Yeah, you could.

So the second thing, I think your question originally was, how do you do it? How do you get it done? And I said, you know, you need help. One of the things that I do both for myself and people who I supervise is to select someone at the firm who would be my technical mentor. And so it's all about growth. And so a technical mentor for me would be someone not in my field. It would be someone directly in the business who understands how a certain aspect of the business works. not in my discipline whatsoever, so that I can continue to learn how the business works and operates, so I can then align our people's strategy and priorities with that of the business. And I won't be able to do that unless I understand how the company makes money, how the company loses money, how it's placed in the industry, who our competitors are, what really makes it tick, what really, you know, drives down performance or other metrics for success. And so, I've never met a person in business who didn't want to teach someone else about the business. Like, no one's ever said no to me. And it's not about because I'm so special or I have this winning personality. Most people want to teach. Most people enjoy that others are interested genuinely in what they do and their understanding of the firm and the value that is created and their ability to articulate that, that helps someone else. And so, every role I get, I think about, hmm, who could I— I'm sizing people up to be my technical mentor. And what that means for me is, Adam, if you're my technical mentor and I know that we are in meetings together, I might intentionally sit next to you or sit where you and I can make eye contact because there could be topics or acronyms or whatever the case may be that I don't understand. And I'm not in a position, you know, to be comfortable enough to say, stop, can you tell me what that means? Or stop, can you tell me why that's important? I don't want to slow down the flow of progress in a meeting necessarily, but I might be able to text you And ask you, what does IRR mean, or what does some other abbreviation mean? And you are giving me the safe space and cover to respond to me. You're not judging me and saying, you know, you should know that, or it's over your head, it's too complicated, I'll tell you later. But you are giving me the time and space to oblige, you know, where I need to learn. And like I said, I've learned the most, you know, about organizations and business. And a lot of times it's those Things that you won't get just from reading, you know, some, you know, annual report or quarterly report or whatever it is. But that person who's really going to sit down and explain it to you in a safe way, I think, is invaluable. And it's one of the things that I suggest for people, you know, at any stage of their career. You don't have to be junior or just starting out or just trying to get a promotion, whatever that next one is. But I think you're never too old or never too experienced to learn something. And so I, from a humility standpoint, I have a few. They may not know that they're my mentors, but they're the ones that I rely on. help with. I sit close to them or close enough where I can nudge them. Or if immediately after a meeting or something I didn't get, they are safe educators for me to make sure that I'm constantly growing and increasing my understanding.

Yeah, I was thinking to myself, somebody who's listening here, no matter what sort of phase they are in their career, could probably benefit from just what you just said. And if they can't, if somebody is listening to this going, I don't think I need a mentor or I could benefit from a mentor, That's probably a bigger issue involved. It was, yeah, because honestly, if you get to the place where you feel like you can't learn from the people around you, you probably ought to either make a change. There should be a pivot that's in the offing probably. So how do you ask? How did you ask? So that anybody that's thinking, okay, great. Now, if I was going to select somebody to be my technical mentor, somebody outside of my functional area, was there a way that you approached the asking for that? Because that's kind of— you're creating a relationship there, and that's delicate.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I could kind of role-play it with you now. I would say, Adam, I've watched you in the organization and how people regard you, and you really know a lot about this organization. I respect your perspective, and you have a way about you that I really, really like, and I think that will foster a lot of growth for me. I think that where I have a shortcoming is understanding some of these technical aspects about the business, and I don't want to interrupt. But at the same time, I'd be a lot further along if I had a safe person to kind of oblige me in my goofy questions, or even just have coffee every once in a while just to make sure I'm clear in understanding. And it helped me understand some of these personalities that I don't know yet. I just really want to navigate them well, and you seem to be really skilled at that. With that in mind, I'd love for you to be my technical mentor. What do you think about that?

I mean, I don't know how I'd ever say no. I don't know how anybody would ever say no to that. Right? So brilliant. Somebody is going to be like, I need to get this transcribed. I'm going to literally say it just exactly the way Crystal just said it, right? But it's not even so much the words as it's— I think it's the tone. I think it's the way that you— that you just even just how you role-played that, right? Because you said humility is this wonderful word. I don't know that a lot of people quite understand exactly how to utilize humility as almost like a superpower versus the arrogance or the ego that a lot of people think they need to have more confidence in, you know, like be the one to take all the, you know, all the oxygen out of the room. And that's how they'll get noticed and advance. There's a lot of misguided information about leadership or about what it takes to succeed. So when it comes to things like setting boundaries and what you were saying, there are a lot of people who are in management roles, whether they're senior level or they're more junior, where part of what they have done to succeed is to be that person who will run through a wall for the organization, for their leader, for whoever, and seems to have no You know, no limit to their capacity and are tireless and on and on and on, right? And when I'm working with some of those leaders or often the people that those leaders lead, I will say I'm never going to say, or our philosophy isn't to change you. Like, I would never say, if that's worked for you, Crystal, I would never say, don't do that, that you should change because other people are getting the wrong message. It's like contrary. to that. What I say or what we— how we come at it is it's less about modeling what the sort of behaviors are that might help to create a more sustainable, high-performing workforce, but rather to allow for permission. And I think that's the place that is the area of growth for a leader that they may not be thinking about, sort of a blind spot. It's just because, like, for example, your comfort level and where you've succeeded is I'm first in and last to leave. First in, And last to go, and that's how you operate, and that's fine. But if everybody else thinks by your example that that's the road to success around here, that this is the way that you do it, so this is certainly the way I'll be expected to do it, that's where I think the problem occurs in not allowing for permission by assuming somehow that people would think that they have permission to go to their kid's dance recital and miss something, you know, like staying late one evening, or, or it might be that. they're not taking their PTO or whatever it might be, right? That they're doing it differently than they would otherwise do it. And I think this is a really important point in the millennial and Gen Z demographics that they've clearly indicated that they don't want to become— they're not looking to create greater— the things that lead to burnout that we're seeing signs of anxiety at levels that haven't been recorded in the workplace before or anything like that. But they're more vocal about the thing you call boundaries. earlier. And I think that's a bit misunderstood by older leaders. And I just wanted to get your thoughts on this, this idea of modeling versus permission.

Yeah. Oh, man. I mean, if I synthesize down the examples that you just talked through, it is the battle of the generations. I mean, at the end of the day, it's, this is how I came up. If it was good enough for me, you got to go through it. You know, you'll be fine. Versus the younger generation saying, no, not necessarily. I don't need to go through everything you went through to get to the same place. I have different tools that you didn't have. And oh, by the way, There's probably not been such a focus on mental health and work-life balance and other things today as it was generations prior to this one. And so, we come from a different approach, but we all want the balance. I don't think there's anyone out there who does not want the balance. If they could manage the balance, they would manage the balance. And so, that's the big difference. It's just the difference from a generational standpoint. I mentioned to you that I have 30-something and 20-something kids. And in my household, there are 4 generations. My husband's older, 9 years older than I am. He's technically a baby boomer. I'm Gen X and then I've got millennials and a Gen Y. And so it's really no different from a needs and wants perspective when it comes to the workplace. We all do still generally want the same things. It's just our mindset on how we may want to get there or what matters to us along the journey of how we get there. And I think that there is some truth to that, but I think what people need to focus on is the how. If we all know Or can assume that we want the same things. We just have to learn to have some mutual respect about how we get there and that it may be different than how I got there. And the way I got there isn't the only way to get there. And if you can do it smarter or faster or otherwise, great. If it takes you longer or slower, more methodically, that's great for you. And not put so much judgment on that, but focus much more on the intended outcome. That's normally how I govern myself when I work with people. It doesn't matter what our differences are. We probably have more similarities than we have differences anyway. And so So, it's just really kind of getting to that ethos of what is it that you want and how do you— how can I help you be successful? I've had to also learn not to project my own goals for people on other people that don't want those same goals. That's a big lesson. You see a lot of potential in people. You may, you know, see some of yourself in those people or other past performers or high potentials in others, and you think, yes, you can do this, and they don't think they can do it. And a lot of times, They may not want it. Okay, great. Instead of forcing, you know, what you think that potential is, you know, as leaders, we have to listen. And I think it's our job to make sure that we're maximizing those unique qualities and skills in individual people versus a one-size-fits-all cookie-cutter type of approach. And if you don't invest in those individual relationships, you won't maximize, you know, your people's potential.

Yeah. How important is a— I'm going to just I'm going to sort of pivot into a different area for a few minutes here before we wrap up. But how important is a psychologically safe work environment to the culture of the organization? And part B to the question, is there some intentional way that you've gone about or that you've had an impact on creating more psychological safety in the workplaces that you've been part of?

Sure. I mean, there's— first of all, to answer your question, I think psychological safety is very important. You want people to feel like they can be themselves, that they can speak up, not just when things are wrong, but also when things go right. So that you know what you should focus on more of and less of, or whatever the case may be. You want people to feel like they can be themselves. As a leader, I do want people to feel as though they can come to me if they do have concerns, and if not, that they should be able to go to someone else if they have concerns but feel like they can't come to me. I don't have an ego about that at all. And I know that that's not necessarily the case with everyone. Most people feel like, why didn't you come to me? And so psychological safety is important. I think the balance to that, though, is that people are there to work. And so we have a work relationship and we are here for Ideally, a common goal, which is to produce X or exceed Y or whatever the case may be. And as leaders do have the right to manage, you know, the work of other people and give them feedback and all of those different things, I still anchor on the how. It's not just about what you're saying and whether or not someone's right or wrong. It is the how. And you're thoughtful about what would it take for this person to, one, get the message and in a very constructive and proactive way, make the changes that they need to make or do more of what we want to see more of in order To even, you know, to go even further. And so, to me, it's about, as a leader, you have to practice on the how. It is about the how. And that may seem like, wow, that's a lot of work. I have 10 people below me. I got to have all, you know, these 10 conversations and learn—

That's a lot of howing.

10 different people, the motives. That's a lot of howing. But it is a difference maker, I think. And I think people feel more safe, more of a sense of trust, more of a sense of speak up and belonging and all these different things that you want. So that you know what the culture is. You know, the company doesn't— the company doesn't set the culture on its own. It's the people who set the culture. It's leadership. Every time a senior leader leaves the organization, it impacts the culture. Every time you hire more employees, it impacts the culture. You know, the company can say our culture is X, but the people set the culture. So how you treat them is important.

Yeah, I feel like we should have like somebody, some you know, like voice of God thing goes, duh. But it's not a duh. And we certainly see that that's not the case. In fact, one of the things that I see more recently in some organizations, of course, we'll not name any names, is sort of a politeness within the culture. But the politeness is a nice word for what's really going on that we've seen, which is avoidance, avoidance of crucial conversations. So you smiled right there, Kristin. Yeah.

And nodding.

So I already can tell that you don't have any issue in having crucial conversations. I just that about you, but you said how. You've said it so many times today that— can you share anything around your philosophy around that, around the not avoid— the creating an environment where we're not avoiding those conversations and yet we're still respecting people, where there's still this safety? Use the word balance, or it might say harmony even, between, you know, this safety that people have to show up and be themselves and not be—

Sure.

Fear. So in other words, they have trust, which ultimately allows for better communication. How do you do that? If there's this avoidance of having those difficult conversations with folks.

Yeah. Do you mind if I share a story where I counseled someone on same kind of situation? I think you're right. I think just being too nice or polite, it's not because we want to be nice and polite. It is more of a self-reflection of not wanting to confront, you know, conflict or have someone upset at us or someone not take the news the way that we would hope that they would take it or whatever the situation is. And I remember at a time at a firm, I was sitting in on a performance review with a manager and his employee, and the employee was upset because everything that was written in that performance review, she thought, wow, we never talked about these things. I'm disappointed, and I feel a bit ambushed here, you know, that you've raised all these things and you've got HR in the room, and you know what's going on. And, you know, the manager thought, you know, said, no, we remember that time when I talked to you about X, or remember that time when I talked to you about Y. And, you know, anyway, the point is they were going back and forth about, I didn't realize that it was such an issue kind of thing. And, you know, once we concluded with that particular employee, I did ask the manager, I said, hey, you know, she kind of raised some good points about not being aware of certain things. And I said, did you actually have, you know, this particular conversation? Did you actually tell her these words? And he said, no. And I said, well, why not? And he goes, I really thought that I would hurt her feelings. And I thought she would cry. And I thought that that just wasn't going to be a productive conversation. And I said, well, what happened today? And he goes, I hurt her feelings and she cried. And the point was, that was all for nothing then. You know, how someone reacts and responds can't be the precursor to if you are going to have an honest, you know, conversation with someone. As a matter of fact, you don't do them a service, you do them a disservice by not having an honest conversation. And not only honest, but timely. So, none of us are perfect. There are things that all of us can do to improve the way we perform, the way we show up. We all have blinders. We all have biases, you know, about, you know, how we are perceived and how we perceive others. And none of us are above reproach. And so, as a manager, you have to have those conversations in a timely manner that helps people be a lot more open to the feedback, as opposed to, hey, 6 months ago, you did or didn't do X, Y, and Z, and now it's showing up from written documentation. And that gets people— there's no sense of trust there. Now they're defensive, now they're whatever. And then as a manager, you're not doing your job, in my opinion, you know, about handling that, you know, in a better way. And again, not all managers are the perfect manager, not all employees are the perfect employees. But man, there are so many tools in the toolkit, you know, just by treating people how you would want to be treated. Some people call that the golden rule. But if it were you having a performance issue and you didn't know, wouldn't you want someone to tell you that this is how you're showing up and then you can decide how you may course correct or not. And just giving people that sense of common courtesy is important. And so, like I said earlier, you know, we have the right to manage people's work and get it done well. Part of that is timely, honest, direct feedback. It is about the how. But there is a way that you can connect the how with someone's performance that needs improvement that still gets us back on track, on the same track, going the same direction and pointing our arrows all in the same direction. And move on. And if things don't work out from there, you definitely want to be able to say, I've tried a number of different ways and, you know, this is what I was hoping to achieve. But you never want anyone to feel surprised.

I can't tell you how many contractors I've said that to before signing on to an estimate or whatever. No surprises, you know, just don't— Yeah, no surprises. That's the only thing you're ever going to hear anything from me about is if I get surprised. But as we conclude this, I'm just going to go back to a conversation that you and I were having before we hit record. So I don't— for the people out there, I just want you to not miss anything. It's not going to end up on the cutting room floor. But I'd love to just get your sense, and this is more general question really, about change. Obviously, at the time that we're recording this, people are consuming this, there's tremendous change. My own philosophy, just based on our research and gosh, having been writing about this topic for so long now, is the greatest constant in the universe, ironically, Absolutely. Is change. That's the great constant is that things will change and they have to change because it's the law of nature. It's the law of evolution. The things that don't change stagnate and then ultimately entropy occurs. In other words, they disintegrate. They die. So we have to continue to change and yet it still catches people off guard and still shocking almost to the senses that the velocity of change is only increasing, right? So you and I, before we even began officially recording, we were just talking about change and change management. And I know you have views on that. So would you share some of your philosophy around change and the process of change for those that are, for sure, listening to this, are immersed in it to one degree or another right this second?

Sure. Well, thank you for letting me circle back on this topic. I think that change management in general is going to make or break whatever change initiative that's going on in the workplace. I feel, and there's a lot of documentation behind this, but projects that skip on change management as an intentional element of its project plan has a much higher chance of failing than one that does. It's so important to make sure you're thinking about the impact of change on work, on processes, on people, on behaviors, on outcomes, and you cannot leave it to chance without being very deliberate about what that impact is going to be and the impact you'd like to see. It's an opportunity to make sure you leave no stone unturned about where change shows up. You don't know everything, you can't think of everything, you need people and change agents and champions and others to help you fully understand, you know, the implication of decisions that are made. And I can't say enough about how important change management is as a broader discipline. Whether you're going through a small change, a big change, a global change, whatever it is in your industry, it is agnostic of whatever field you're in or part of the business that you may operate in. But I'm a fan. I consider myself a change agent, not just if it's a big project, but just really pausing and thinking about what's the implication? Who else do we need to talk to? Who is the expert? How do we mitigate these things? What are we not thinking about? Who are we not talking to? What voices have I not heard? Who will care? Who won't care? And stream it together. I'm sure there's more, but this notion of change and the mindset of change is critical, you know, to any endeavor. And so I'll sit here and beam and talk about change for another hour if you want to, but it really gives me a lot of energy to think about You know, really the benefits. A lot of people fight it. You know how sometimes as adults we fight our instincts, and that gut instinct is still always right. And that's how I feel some people approach change and change management and how important it is. But don't fight the gut. You know, we need to pause and think and give it proper space and diligence for any project that we're facing.

Indeed. It almost sounds like there's a synergy for sure. And I'm thinking either we took a page out of your book because the book Change Proof, that's the structure is pause, ask, choose. And what I love so much about what you're at, how you just shared that was the fact that you gave us so many questions. The pause is this great moment to get neutral and get present and all that really important stuff that so often we skip. But the asking the questions part is so profound and you just keep going on and questions. And like you said, you only scratched the surface of them. You know, like, what don't I see? And there's just so many questions there that my own philosophy about this is that you can't ask a question without getting an answer. This is— I literally operate my life on this, on the premise that you ask a question, you receive an answer. Now, I don't know what the timing is because sometimes you ask a really deep, very involved question and maybe you're not going to get an answer right away. And I've not had the instance where asking a question didn't lead to an answer. So to not do that creates so much more area for blind spot and for mistake than to actually move through the process that you just outlined. So, gosh, Crystal, I could also just spend another hour or more talking to you. So maybe we'll do a part 2. For now, anyway, we're going to wrap things up. But thank you so much. I know you've got a lot going on, and I appreciate your time so much today. I know our audience has just enjoyed it tremendously. In the show notes, there'll be more information about Crystal and her work in the world, and you guys can follow on LinkedIn. And because you're— are you active on LinkedIn? I didn't look to see.

I'm active. I'm active.

A little bit. A little bit. Okay, good. Good. Good. Because I would hate to think that somehow or another that the wonderful Heinz Company was the only one that was, that was receiving the benefits of your wisdom, because I really feel that strongly from you. So thank you for your time today.

I appreciate it, Adam.

Well, okay. I literally could speak to Crystal for hours and hours, and I'm just intuiting that You loved what she was sharing and could listen to her. And I got to tell you, after we ended our recording, I said to her, you got to get out there and share more of your history, your experience, your wisdom on these topics because in the world of work, it can be really confusing. There can be a lot of loud voices and a lot of voices I think that maybe even don't carry that much weight in terms of how tangible what they're saying is and how applicable and how usable it is. in the lives of leaders and even in those of us that might be in a different space. So I loved that conversation today. I loved how tangible it was and how practical, as well as the nuances to what Crystal was sharing with us about so many different areas of the world of work, including how it is that we think about boundaries, how we are able to work on them for ourselves, but also use those— that process for ourselves as a way to give permission and allow the space for other people to— To also set those boundaries for themselves. I think that's what leaders must do is not just show the path to success, but also create an environment where the most numbers of people that they are around can also succeed, even if that success looks different or the path to that success, the path to performance and the achievement that we're all looking for. By the way, all of us want to be fulfilled and all of us want to add value in the world and have meaningful work lives, and the path to that result, to that outcome, isn't all the same. And I think, again, that's where sometimes people that are leading are leading with blinders on. So loved so much listening to Crystal's responses to questions that organically were just, you know, coming up for me, and her thoughts and philosophy around change, and the stories that she told, especially that story I loved about her counseling a manager as an HR professional on how to provide feedback and the importance of providing it in a timely way and in an authentic way, in an honest way, even when there could be a negative or a reaction from the person who's being given the feedback that is emotional or somehow difficult. But still nonetheless, that feedback, that honest appraisal has to be provided and it should be provided consistently, not just quarterly or semiannually or in some half-baked performance management tool that has you do it once a year. Because we know that those things are not effective. And that people, they feel blindsided, they feel ambushed in those moments. So having those crucial conversations, those wonderful conversations too, because feedback doesn't just mean providing somebody with a clue as to how they're missing the mark, but rather is an opportunity also for celebrating success. And I— we all know that there, for the most part, that when feedback is given, it's mostly a critique of what's not working and very rarely is And a celebration of what is working. So there's just a lot of wonderful takeaways. If this also resonated with you, please share this episode with a colleague, a friend, a family member even. Let us know by leaving a comment at adamarkel.com/comment or /podcast. I should say adamarkel.com/podcast. And if you would take the few moments that it does take, but it takes time, so it's— I don't want to diminish the fact that we're asking something from you to leave a review. Whether it's a 3-star, 4-star, 5-star appraisal of this episode and of the show, the Change Proof Podcast, on the platform that you consume this, that's super helpful. It helps the algorithm to help us. It helps us get help from the algorithm, something that we otherwise can't control. So thank you so much for taking the time to do that if you're willing. For now anyway, I want to just thank you for being a part of this community. Thank you for listening. Hopefully you'll listen in for many more of our episodes, they tend to be, I think, great conversations. And today was no exception to that. So I will just say thank you again and ciao for now.

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