The Key Qualities Of A Great Leader With Meredith Bell

Life happens, and not always the way we expect it to. Every single day we face change, stress, and uncertainty. What if you could learn to thrive no matter what life throws your way? Resilience expert Adam Markel and his inspiring guests explore breakthrough strategies to fully embrace change and build the resilience required to become change-proof.

Hey everybody, welcome back to another episode of the The Change Proof Podcast. I'm your host, Adam Markel. And today I have a, a lovely, such a wonderful woman. I was on her show some months ago and we met through a mutual friend and she's just amazing. Her name is Meredith Bell. She is the co-founder and president of Grow Strong Leaders. Her company publishes software tools and books that help people to build strong relationships at work and at home. Meredith is the author of 3 books herself and the host of the Grow Strong Leaders podcast. So this is going to be an exciting conversation. I know you're going to love it. Okay, Meredith, I know I've been looking forward to this, to this conversation for a while. You and I, we became fast friends a few months ago. It was fun for me just now to introduce you, and I was looking forward to that as well. So what is one thing— and right out of the gate, nobody ever knows the— it's funny, I ask this question pretty much universally. Nobody ever really seems prepared for it. So, and I love that. I think our community loves that as well. So my question to you is, what's one thing that is not part of your standard intro or bio, as you've just heard it, that you would love for people to know about you? Something that's not a part of that that you'd like people to know?

Well, that's such a good question. There are a couple of thoughts that came to mind. I'll share them both if that's okay. One is that my husband and I have been avid birdwatchers for more than 20 years, and we just love getting out with nature and, you know, observing these wonderful little creatures. And so it's been great practice for me learning how to not just identify them visually, but I'm not as much of an auditory learner. So I've really concentrated on learning how to listen for them because you hear them more than you see them oftentimes. And so it's been a wonderful skill just to pay attention to and be able to identify some of these feathered friends. So that's thing one. Thing 2 is really kind of fun. I went to high school. For 2 years with Mark Hamill, who was the Luke Skywalker character in the Star— Mark always wanted to be an actor. So when he started appearing on TV shows, and then of course with Star Wars, I was just ecstatic for him. He was a really great guy.

I really hope you're enjoying this episode of the Change Proof Podcast. If you've not yet gone out and gotten your own copy of Change Proof, it's not too late. You can get your copy right now by going to changeproof.com and not only getting the book and all the bonuses there, but getting access to our proprietary resilience assessment tool. It'll just take you 3 minutes to do, and it's something that will really help you to utilize the book even more effectively to create practices and rituals and habits That will increase your mental, emotional, physical, and even spiritual resilience for the long term. Again, go to changeproof.com to get your copy today. It's so interesting. I'm, I'm thinking about 2 things, actually. One is that we just put out a bird feeder, a hummingbird feeder, which I purchased some time ago, and then I just let it sit. Let it sit till finally I just got sick of looking at it, sick of thinking of myself as being being somebody that, that just doesn't, you know, in that instant I'm like, where else in your life does this happen where you got something on your mind and then you don't fully execute it? And I'm like, I don't like the way that feels at all. And that's all it took. It was like an instant catalyst for me to get up and put this thing together, which was no big deal, and then put together the solution, you know, mixing this sort of, uh, nutrients that they provide for the birds with a little water, you know, warm water, and it turns it into this kind of sugary stuff that they love. And it's not sugar, by the way, just so we're clear. It's not sugar. But that was just super fun. And we haven't seen any hummingbirds yet, so it's kind of funny. I should—

We've had them for about a month.

I shouldn't be impatient with the birds since I literally had the thing forever and then didn't do anything about it. So it'll practice some Zen patience here or whatever. And we just saw— went to, like, one of these little restaurants that does a movie and a dinner thing, which is kind of fun. And a little tiny little restaurant on this island that we spent some time in New England. And it was The Empire Strikes Back. And so I got to see Mark Hamill in a, you know, a young, vibrant version of himself, which— so you know him from high school? Is that the deal? Is that what you said?

Yeah, he went to Annandale High School. And then his father was military and got transferred to Japan. So we stayed in touch for a while after he moved to Japan, and then we lost touch. But I've just loved seeing what a wonderful human being he is too, not just a great actor.

I think he's been in the news recently, and I didn't kind of catch why that was, but I did see him in a bearded version in something going on. Do you— I'm not sure what—

Yeah, he was a guest at the White House.

Is that what it was? Oh, very cool. Well, good for him. Good for Mark. It's always not— I don't know if folks feel the same way, but when I hear about somebody that's done well, or I've seen somebody that's done well, and I either hear that they're really, you know, were good people, like you just— they were always kind of, you know, not terribly arrogant. You know, you need a level of confidence to succeed. We all get that. We— whether it's in sports or in business, you gotta have a little bit of swag and swagger and all that kind of thing. But you know the difference between that person that can comport themselves with confidence and somebody who's just, you know, obnoxious. So when you hear somebody that's just a— has that humility or is just a good person, right? And they succeed, it makes you feel that much better about their success. I don't know if you feel that way about, about Mark knowing, knowing the origin story there. Oh, yeah.

Mm-hmm. Yeah, he was always involved in all the theatrical productions, you know, in high school. He was in one role or another with them. And I remember before he moved, we went to see a movie together. And I even remember it was How to Succeed in Business. Ancient thing. But coming out, you know, he was just so pumped about pursuing acting as a career. So it's, you know, just been special to see. Not only the success he's had, but the wonderful humanness in his approach to life, his appreciation of his family and people in general, his values. It's been really neat to see over the years.

Yeah. I'm always terribly curious about how these initial questions that I don't plan for, because there's no way for me to know the answer to, you know, the question, what's something we want people to know about you? But where it dovetails into what this show is about, and then, of course, not being too attached and allowing— just allowing, really, for things to unfold. And as we said before we even hit record, just sort of following the magic breadcrumbs or what have you. So I want to ask you then, as a way to segue from what you just shared with us, in your role as somebody who has coached leaders, has worked with leaders, has helped leaders to assess themselves as well as assess their teams, et cetera. The kind of qualities that we're talking about in someone like Mark Hamill, kind of funny enough, where does that play in? How does that play into how you see leadership or what you've divined after so many years of working in this space is an effective leader, a great leader even perhaps?

You know, there are so many components there. One of the ones that I see in Mark that I know is so important in leadership in general is humility. And to me, humility is not in any way putting yourself down. It's recognizing your own strengths, your abilities, giving yourself full credit, but not needing to have center stage, to have everybody looking at me, me, me. It's about the greater good and looking at how can I be of service to others. And so I think that ties in with a core element of effective leaders, that willingness to say, I don't know, or I need your help and not feel like they have to always be right or always have the answers. And so that continuous learning, that they're always on a path of seeking and growing. I mean, our company is Grow Strong Leaders. And so that whole emphasis of a willingness to keep an open mind and learn, I just think is so essential. The ability to create trust is a key part of that too, that being Having the honesty, the integrity that people know they can count on you to be your word, and they will go to the mat for you when they know you have their back as well. Yeah. And I think that too often that gets overlooked. But, you know, the reality that, as I think really deeply, and I have about this for leaders, is people have to know you care about them as a human being to invest the time to get to know them. Well, to connect in a meaningful way. I think too many leaders underestimate the power of that because they're so task-oriented, results-oriented, and sometimes lose sight of the fact that these are human beings. These— each person matters and wants to know they matter. And so what am I doing to create that sense that each one of the players in my company is really important to its success.

It's not a recipe thing, obviously. So it's— and yet people want to know, how do you cultivate that? How do you cultivate that? The truth of this, that proposition that people do better and people will perform better for sure when they know that others have their backs, when they know that there are people that genuinely care about them who also happen to also be their their managers or their supervisors or the people that are mentoring them, that kind of thing. So there's no, there's no one way to do it. I mean, have you seen in, in your works with organizations, with leaders, something that just strikes you either as a story, an anecdote, or some example of what that looks like in real life?

Yeah, we produce a 360 feedback tool, and it's— we've been in that business now for 30 years, so we have A number of different stories. One of my favorites was a leader who had a consultant work with him to do this feedback, and he really didn't know what to expect. But what was the trigger for him to seek input was the fact that there was high absenteeism, low morale, and he just could sense he wasn't getting the most from people. And so he was trying to identify what's the cause. Well, when the results came back, it turned out it was him that was the reason. He was a micromanager. He was harsh from the perspective of the people that worked for him. This was in a hotel situation. So we're talking about someone managing a property with lots and lots of employees. And so this consultant was very skilled at working with him to identify and help him see this was the case. It was such a wake-up call for him, Adam, because his core values were that people mattered, that they were important. And when he saw this huge disconnect between how he thought he was and how he actually was perceived, he was really motivated to make a change. And, you know, that's a key piece, is that willingness to take a look, to first of all, to ask for feedback. And then to look at it with an open mind and not try to shift the blame. What's wrong with them? Oh, it's other things besides me. He really looked hard at himself and started making changes. He started meeting with people, finding out what they wanted, and opening up more. And over a period of months of working with this consultant who was also a coach to help him make progress and support him along the way. After a number of months, when she came back into the building, people— she said she could just sense the difference in the atmosphere there. People were smiling, they were happier. And when she went in to meet with him after some time had gone by, he was thanking her profusely because it not only changed the culture because he became more open, more honest, more vulnerable, He also carried that over at home. So his family life improved. You know, that's the interesting thing. When we start modifying our behavior in one scenario, because we are whole people, it also can have an impact in other areas of our life. And so that whole organization underwent a major shift and transformation due to this one leader, the CEO, recognizing changes need to be made. So it took time, but it was real and it was just so positive. And this kind of thing is possible in all kinds of organizations. But, you know, it takes that emotional maturity and a willingness to seek awareness, self-awareness, to grow and learn. For that kind of transformation to happen.

Yeah. The word that you said earlier, which really resonated with me, was humility. That in a situation where you get feedback like that, where your self-image is really what's on the line, because clearly, if the change has to start with you, there's an element of who you are being not adequate, not sufficient. It really hits you. I, I would think it hits you right, right in the gut. I've been hit in the gut like that, so I know what that feels like too. People listening to this right now might be thinking, you know, if there are areas in the company, in the team, in any of the situations that people are involved in where some— something's not optimal or where there's a lot of room for improvement, you can sense it, you can feel it. It's like, well, what's my part in that? What is my role in why things are the way they are? But you have to have a level of humility, which is the word you used earlier, which is to me the opposite. It's like the antithesis of arrogance is humility. But humility is not weakness. It's not being a doormat or being passive or somehow not being able to get, you know, rally the troops or get things done, is it?

No, I really see it as a strength. It's because you recognize who you are and your value and what you have to offer. So it isn't minimizing any of that. It's just recognizing I have more to learn, and I don't have all the answers, and I can ask for help. And in this case, talking about feedback, asking for input, you know, you don't have to go through a formal 360 process to be able to go to people who are important to your work and just tell them, you know, I am committed to my own growth and learning. What's one thing I could do better? Or differently that would make your work more successful or make our relationship better? So that you just are asking for one thing, and you're asking the person to think ahead into the future, not dig back into the past. What have I done wrong? But what would you like to see me do differently or better going forward so your experience working with me would be more positive?

And you also said in that feedback for that particular CEO that they were considered to be harsh. I mean, I've known a number of people that run sales teams and are in other senior-level leadership roles, including CEOs. It rarely— only on occasion have I heard that a CEO was harsh, mostly because I think the work we've done more recently, our company WorkWell anyway, has been with larger companies. And, and I think people that are harsh sabotage their careers in ways they probably can't really anticipate. But I have not seen too many CEOs that if they were harsh in a former iteration of themselves or in some other role, that harshness doesn't translate so much, at least not outwardly, not publicly in their role as a CEO, but at other senior leadership roles, including in sales and in, in particular in sales, I've heard that quite frequently. I don't know if that's also been your experience, but my question to you is really just a sense of, for those that are out there who either are leading teams in sales or marketing or, or some of those areas where, where the metrics are so important. I mean, all the numbers in business matter, But we know that, that a lot of times the inflection point kind of comes down to sales and marketing. And those people have a tremendous amount of pressure on them all the time to perform and, and all that kind of thing. And sometimes rallying the troops, it's a bit like being on a battlefield and it's not kind and it's not gentle, and often it's actually quite harsh. And I'm just curious whether, you know, in working with the sales arms of organizations or with sales leaders in particular, Whether you think that that's been a tougher nut to crack. What insight maybe perhaps have you learned about that? Do you need— is that, you know, is that a quality that, that actually you need, you know, to be, to be able to be harsh?

Yeah, we haven't worked as much directly with the sales teams, but I think if we just think there's a certain percentage of people in these leadership roles that somehow get the idea that's the appropriate way to motivate people. And in fact, it's the opposite. And, you know, we've seen this with people in parenting roles as well as in leadership roles where taking that push them and don't trust them and assume the worst, you know, that they need to be closely monitored and tracked. We don't appreciate that as adults. Kids don't appreciate it either, that we respond better When we sense that someone believes in our capabilities, you know, and that they're there for us. It doesn't mean being soft. In fact, I hate the word soft skills. To me, they're power skills. When you understand basic human motivation, that we respond so much better to the carrot than the stick, if you want to put it that way. When we are acknowledged for what we do, And not constantly reminded of our shortcomings or threatened. We tend to constrict or, you know, contract when we feel that we are being— a punishment is being held over our heads versus freedom to use our own creativity, our own abilities. And I think a key aspect of that, Adam, is not— is for leaders to not make assumptions and instead to be curious and ask questions. And instead of assuming the worst, giving the benefit of the doubt, assuming the best of someone. So if someone is, you know, looking like they're going to fall short on their sales goal or some other metric that we're looking at that says, whoa, there's a big gap here between where we want them to be and where they are, sitting down and talking to the person to find out You know, what's going on with you right now? They may have some personal situation that they haven't opened up about that is really demanding their time and energy and learning what that is. Just having them feel safe enough to talk about that can be huge. Or there may be something personal. There may be some self-doubt that they have, some past failures they've experienced where they are just concerned about opening up. So I think finding out and asking questions to learn where this person is and then to listen, because I think that leaders today are under so much time pressure, the constraints of having to get so much done in so little time. I don't have time for these kinds of conversations to find out what's going on with people. Well, I'm here to say that if you don't take time for those kinds of conversations, It's going to hurt you in the long run. We're not having— we're not saying be a counselor or take extended periods of time, but if you will invest some amount of time to learning what's important to the people, what's going on with them, the folks on your team, it pays so many dividends back down the road from them feeling like somebody is on their side.

You know, we like to counsel, stop asking the question, how are you doing? You know, it's a good question, but, but rarely do people say much of anything except, you know, fine, good, whatever they might say. Or, you know, where I grew up, we didn't even answer the question. We just asked the question in return. So it was like a— you'd say, how you doing? Somebody say, how you doing? That was it. Back, you know, a little ping pong. Because on some level, it's intended to be superficial. It's almost like a greeting. It's like kind of hi, you know, but hi and how you doing with no expectation you're gonna get an answer, an actual real answer. Yeah. So to me, it's not— it's not setting yourself up for success if what you're looking to do is create that connection. And then as a result of there being a genuine connection, something authentic, that there could be safety. You could get psychological safety. You could develop trust. You could develop something deeper and more meaningful that impacts how a person feels at work. So instead of, how you doing, for example, what are you doing?

Mm-hmm.

The deep, that more curious exploration of what are you doing with you on your weekend so that somebody could look you in the eye and go, well, considering the fact that I get, you know, Teams messages or I get Slacked or I get texted or I get emails throughout my weekend, I'm not sure what weekend you're referring to. I don't really have, I don't really have a weekend or whatever they might say. You know, they might not be that quick to, to go there, but learning from somebody what they're doing, what are they doing with their family? What are they doing in, in their free time, potentially as a volunteer, if that's on their heart that they want to give back. And a lot of people, in our surveys, we found that a lot of people actually feel good about the work that they're doing, which is kind of not so much a surprise, but almost in the mid-80 range. So 85%, 86% of the folks that we've surveyed, which is upwards of near 10,000 business leaders today, indicate they're in the right life. They're in a livelihood that's in alignment with their core values and beliefs, which we would say is the right livelihood. It's the right thing they should be doing. Mm-hmm. But yet the very next question in the survey indicates that there's a gap between what they say is important and how they actually allocate their time. So that delta between what they want to be doing and what they're actually doing is a big deal. It leads to a lot of feelings. There's a lot of feelings that get triggered by that, feeling unfulfilled and like you're not making enough of a difference and all that kind of stuff. More granular, as you're saying, exploring with a person what they're really up to. That's a key. And I get it. Like you said, you're not— you don't have to be a counselor. You don't have to be a, you know, somebody who's professionally trained to ask those questions. But you just have to— what you do have to do is care. And if you feel like you don't have time to care, that's one of those, as you said earlier, the— when it comes to emotional intelligence or emotional acumen, it's probably an area you gotta look in the mirror. If you don't feel like you have the time, to actually care to ask somebody about what's happening in their life. Do you agree with that statement?

Yes. Even things like, what's most important to you in your work? You know, what activities are you involved with that bring you the greatest sense of satisfaction? You know, just some things like that. Because if we learn what the strengths are of each person on our team, then we can better allocate assignments that are going to really tap into the strengths of the people on our team. When people get to work in their, you know, zone of genius, it makes a huge difference in their motivation. But if we don't even have a sense of what that is from their perspective, because I think another key aspect of leadership really is speaking possibility into others, helping them to truly tap into their own greatness and see things in themselves that they haven't seen before. To me, that's a truly remarkable leader. When, again, it requires getting out of their own selves and focusing on others to see what's the spark I can ignite in this person that would cause them to love coming to work every day and to feeling— because when you think about it, the data shows very— such a tiny percentage of people are really engaged in their work. As a leader, I can find out what it is that causes each person And in my sphere to really get motivated and excited about their work, the energy that everybody's gonna be bringing to the task at hand is going to help us achieve it so much faster, have more fun, you know, enjoy it. And that's what's going to also help with retention because people aren't going to leave a place where they feel appreciated and valued and they feel they're making a contribution to something greater than themselves. I think all of those elements are important for leaders to consider when they think about, how do I need to interact with this person in a way that's going to benefit them, me, and the business as a whole?

Resilience. It's the unsung hero in every success story that you will ever hear about. And in times of massive change and disruption, The kind of rapid change that we're all experiencing as leaders, as business owners, as entrepreneurs. We have to learn how to not only increase our own resilience, but that of our teams. So right now, we have a powerful opportunity for you to find out just how resilient you are. Some years ago, my team and I created the resilience assessment that more than 5,000 business leaders across the globe have taken, and all you have to do to get your own. The way you can take our free resilience leader assessment is go to resiliencerank.com. It takes less than 3 minutes, and it's our gift to you for being the leader that you already are. Other free resources and tools will accompany your score instantly. So, go to resiliencerank.com and find out just how resilient you are. Yeah. As you were saying that, I found myself really curious about Because you said earlier your business has been around for almost 3 decades, or maybe even a little, little longer than that. What have you gotten the most joy out of? What has given you the most personal satisfaction in the work you've done and, and in the work you're currently doing?

I've actually worked with my 2 business partners for 32 years, and we have been on this same mission of helping leaders become more effective so that they can have a positive impact on everybody around them. We have seen too many times where there's unnecessary pain, drama, you know, created in the workplace because people don't know how to communicate with each other. And so that's been our primary focus is this whole area of communication skills and how to relate to one another so that it's a positive experience. And we see, you know, there's continual work So I've seen the difference it makes when people get information, whether it's from a 360 feedback process or from just going through some of our materials, our books, our online programs that help them understand, here's what it looks like to receive feedback graciously, to listen well, to give positive feedback so that people feel appreciated, to give constructive feedback in a way that it feels supportive. All of these elevation of these important communication skills and knowing what a difference they make for people in the workplace and in their personal lives as well. That just keeps me charged up because I just feel that if people can continue to make improvements in the way— because most of the time, Adam, honestly, they just don't know any better. Our schools don't have any kind of training in this area for people as they're You know, going through our formal educational system on one of the most important things that they need to have as a life skill, and that's the ability to communicate well.

What are you seeing in now versus potentially before the pandemic? I don't know if there's a dis— a distinction between pre- and post-pandemic, but what are you, what are you seeing in the area of communication as being the biggest challenge? Are you spotting anything in particular?

Well, when, of course, when COVID hit and everybody had to go remote, you didn't have those, you know, in-person meetings. You had to rely on Zoom. And there were a lot of things going on in the background that you couldn't know. There were potential distractions. And so I think blocking out time to really just check in on how someone is doing, you know, what's going on with them. Of course, we're in a different place now post-COVID than we were in the early days. But still, we've got that mixture of in-person, remote, in some cases a hybrid, to just see and be able to check on how people are doing if we're not with them in person, to have some of these small group conversations. How can we create those kinds of interactions that still feel like we're together and build that cohesiveness? Remotely. I think that was one of the biggest challenges that in some cases have been very successfully dealt with.

Yeah, cohesiveness. What a good word to describe what is the goal, what I think feels like where you want to be. What I've been seeing, and you probably have seen some of this too, people kind of— there's this ghosting, you know, this idea that— or not idea, but where people just don't respond. And will— I don't even know what the right word is because I'm not sure if it's truly intentional, it's by design, whether it's passive-aggressive, or whether it's something strictly related to how they manage time. But we see this in organizations all the time, from the highest levels of leadership straight on down, where people are just slow to respond to things and where there's a different feeling in that communication when it does come. Sometimes from the the way that that person will communicate when they're either face to face in a virtual sense, you know, over Teams or over Zoom or something like that, or they're actually in person, you know, in a physical proximity to some other person, which is an interesting dynamic because as you said before the pandemic, we primarily that that was it. We were communicating a lot in person, and there wasn't such a distinction and even a sharp distinction between the form. The style, the, the tenor, the, you know, a lot of, a lot of words to describe it, the tone of a communication that was made face-to-face versus a communication that was made through email or through text. But now what we, what we see is there is a distinct difference between those 2 forms of communication in the tone. And separate and apart from that, there is this sort of this period where, where emails and text messages will just go unanswered for a period of time. Which is, I think, strikingly inefficient and not a great sign of where our human connection is currently in and outside of the workplace, not just exclusively in the workplace. Yeah.

You know, as you're describing that, I think one of the key things that's important to do is recognize when we need to establish agreements about how we're going to behave with each other. So if you have someone who's been ghosting you or slow to respond, I think having a one-on-one conversation, or if this is something that's happening on with the team as a whole, either way, there needs to be a conversation around how are we going to interact with each other? How are we going to agree to respond in terms of a time, a time frame that's reasonable and fair to get back? Too often, you know, we grumble to someone else about an issue we have with a specific person not getting back to us or ghosting us. So why are we not willing to have the conversation with that person and say, I'm feeling frustrated, disappointed, whatever is going on with you, I would like to get this addressed and come up with— and I like the term agreement because too often where our disappointment or frustration comes in is when we have an expectation for someone, but it hasn't been verbalized. It's just in our own minds. I expect you to get back to me within 24 hours or 12 hours or whatever it is, but I've never told you that. And so I'm judging you based on criteria that you don't even know about. So I think the clarity of communication is so important. If I'm feeling agitated or frustrated with someone, I need to look within and say, where have I not been clear on what I would like to have in this kind of situation? And then have a conversation with them. And, you know, this is where humility comes in, in the willingness to say, you know, I apologize if I haven't been clear with you. Here's what I would like to have in whatever the scenario might be. And then how does that land with you? Are you willing to commit to whatever it is I'm looking for in terms of behavior? So we can have a conversation. Because if we don't have commitment from the other person, then we still don't have an agreement on how we're going to be with each other. And I think that is where the missing pieces are so often. We've never been clear in our communication about what each person wants and needs. Yeah.

Right. And it's, it's interesting too, because so often, as you said, many times we expect others to be mind readers. We expect them to just know, you know, or we've made some assumptions about what they should know in terms of what clear communication would look like or what, what even timely communication might look like. So you're— so I think coming back to humility, coming back to that sense of, look, I'm not— I don't need to necessarily be right here. I don't have to make somebody else wrong either in the situation, but rather, this is not working. It's not working as well as it could. Yes. And so therefore, let's reset. As you said, potentially there's an opportunity for a conversation where you say, look, and we refer to it, you guys refer to it, I know, as well, probably as agreement frames that you simply say to somebody, look, here's what I'd love for us to be able to create as an agreement going forward so that we could have more effective working. Everything. Relationship, of course, but that we'd be able to be that much more efficient with one another if we go, hey, what's a reasonable timeframe to expect a response or to have a response be sort of what we can anticipate? Is it 72 hours? What is it? Is it when I feel like it? Is it when all the rest of my most urgent things are taken care of? I'll get around to this at some point. What's the reality here? Which could lead to some very deep conversation, could be some pretty transparent conversation about lots of things going on, what people are each individually dealing with that maybe the other person's not even aware of, et cetera. Could be that some manager or some supervisor is saying, yeah, yeah, don't deal with that. I've got something for you that has to take all of your focus and attention, and everything else has to be pushed to the side until that happens. And there could be lots of reasons. But ultimately, you know, even in situations like that where there's an expectation that's born out of clear communication and an agreement, that you can always decommit. Say, listen, by the way, I know I'm supposed to respond to that email you sent me 2 days ago, or yesterday, or whatever it might be. But I can tell you that given what's going on in my world right now, my personal world, I'm not going to get back to you for like a week. Or I'll let you know when I'm going to get back to you, but it's not going to be within this period that we've agreed to. And that is so simple. So when we're working with organizations, organizations, we see the signs of those kinds of things. We just know that that's eroding. It's literally like termites eating away at the foundation. The clean thing that can be done, it's so easily done, is simply to reply and say whatever you have to say, even if that is simply— and we've told people this— just write back, received. I've got it. I'll get back to you. Thanks so much. Or that one step further, when the clear communication is, I'll get back to you Friday. Right. As opposed to leaving, leaving that situation sort of untended. You know, in any event, this is— we could spend days talking about communications. I think of everything that I've noticed within organizations, communications being, to me, is at the top of the list of things that need improvement, that really require improvement in some of the biggest multi-billion-dollar publicly traded companies on down to, uh, sort of, you know, smaller, much smaller concerns. I'm not sure if that's been your experience as well.

Absolutely. It is. It is the number one thing. Reasons people give for leaving an organization is typically a, quote, bad boss, right? And a lot of that comes down to how they do or do not communicate, or how well they do or do not communicate. And I think what gets in our way a lot of times is our own ego. We take things personally, like, I haven't heard from this person in 3 days, you know, they didn't reply. So we take it as an insult to ourselves. Instead of, I wonder what's going on with them? You know, being curious and not taking offense to things. Because as soon as we start taking things personally and getting our ego in the way, it sets up a conflict or a confrontation that doesn't even have to exist. And so I think if we can shift from judging, criticizing, either internally or externally with others, and simply adopt a more curious mindset and not make assumptions about why somebody— you know, we can apply this in sales too. When somebody has reached out to a prospect and they haven't heard back, and then they have reached out again and they haven't heard back, and assume, oh, they don't want to do business with us or whatever. Don't know that. All we know is we haven't had a response yet. We don't know why. And I think that's true in the workplace as well. When someone's behavior is different from what we had hoped it would be or expected it to be, then let's think of ourselves as exploring what's behind that and not say, oh, it's about me, and making these judgments that don't serve anyone because it sets us on edge. It elicits these negative feelings towards that person instead of being gracious and open and giving them the benefit of the doubt. It makes such a difference because people can sense How we come across when we're talking to them. You know, if there's an edge in our voice, if there's a tone, whatever it is that might convey judgment, criticism, we just bring that with us. And if instead we could replace it with a more generous attitude about another person, they would feel that too. That's a great word.

Absolutely love that, the use of Generosity and being generous in that, in that context is really beautiful. Meredith, a couple of, just a couple of questions left here, but I want to ask you about culture. This kind of amorphous concept that is always important. People kind of know it when they see it or know it when they feel it. I'm just curious how you feel about what's important in developing culture. Does it happen just by some Is it happenstance or magic? Is it something more intentional in your experience?

No, I think it's very intentional. And I think ideally it starts at the top where the senior leaders model all the things we've been talking about, that humility, that openness, the enthusiasm for the vision of the organization, the integrity, the honesty. All of that sets the tone for the entire organization. Now, it is possible for a team leader, you know, within his or her own team to create that same kind of microcosm if it isn't at the very top leadership. But for a real positive culture to be sent throughout an organization, it starts at the top. You know, Adam, you've been a guest on my podcast, When I interview CEOs that have a genuine love for their people and caring about their people, when I talk to anybody else in their organization, they are so positive about not just that leader, but about working in that environment, because it trickles down through everyone when the top leadership is able to communicate, we care about you, We're in this for you. We're interested in your ideas, your opinions. We're willing to make changes based on your input. All of that contributes to creating a culture where people feel safe. They feel they can be open and honest. And that's how you get new ideas. If you are that more of the autocratic leader, don't question how we do things around here. This is the rules. You follow them or you're gone. That's very constricting, and people are not going to be able to thrive and want to contribute their best. So to me, a positive culture is one where people are smiling, they're intensely working, they're giving their best, they're producing great results, and they feel enjoyment and satisfaction in their work because they feel valued. That to me is a common thread in a positive culture, is people feel valued. And, you know, that has a ripple effect on the customers because when people feel valued and they're happy, they're going to convey that to the people who do business with them. So if you hear a negative tone in someone when you are calling for service, that gives you an indication of what the culture is like, I think, because it has a ripple effect at all levels and with people everywhere that have contact with that company.

Yeah. Indeed. And so last question, Meredith, I, I wanna get a sense of, we're both very much lovers of books and lifelong learners, I would say too. And all that. Do you have a favorite current sort of favorite business book, something that you've read, or maybe it's a book about leadership, maybe it's something that's totally outside of that environment, you know, etcetera. But any, any book recent?

You know, Adam, I will say your book was one that I absolutely loved, Change Proof. That's been One of the recent ones that I've read. I loved that. Any of Steve Chandler's books have been very inspiring to me. I've probably read 20 of his books. He's often known as the godfather of coaching. He's worked with a lot of coaches. He's trained a lot of coaches. But even though I am not a professional coach, I kind of do informal coaching with people. But everything he writes about is relevant for everyone. Yeah. And he's got a book that's kind of a compilation called The Very Best of Steve Chandler. But there are so many things that he writes about that I will just go back to picking up one of his books when I want to reignite some of the ideas, like owner versus victim. Do I see things happening to me, or do I take personal responsibility and say, yeah, I am the one that can make this happen? So— Any of his books, I highly recommend.

Yeah, I've not had one of the— I've not read one of Steve Chandler's books, so I'm excited to be able to pick one up. Literally, what I'll do is as soon as this show is over, I'll get on and order one up.

Yeah, get the one that's called The Very Best of Steve Chandler, because that brings in multiple chapters of some of his top-selling books. And what you'll love about him is you can just pick up any chapter and read it and get something from it because they're short and it's, it's so conversational. And yet it's so— every one of them is packed with wisdom that you, you get a nugget with anything that you read from him.

Oh, that's cool. I'm looking it up right now. So for me, the, the answer for folks that are curious about this, my latest book that I absolutely love is The 4 Disciplines of Execution. And it's 3 authors, Chris McChesney, Sean Covey, and Jim Huling. But 40X is a pretty interesting principle. Our team is actually working through some 40X work now and loving it and enjoying it. And it's a book about how it is that you break free of the whirlwind, how you really get focused on important things in your business. And it could be used in other contexts as well without about the usual excuse that there's so many more urgent things, and there's always so many urgent things that we could call the whirlwind, which is just the daily things, the dos, the to-dos, et cetera. So that book has made a big imprint on me recently. And the book I had before that was called Stolen Focus, which is also a book that's got some great stuff in it, business-related, but really more about how it is that we're We're interacting in the world. But you just said yes. So tell me, what did you love about Stolen Focus?

Oh my goodness.

A lot of things, right?

Well, every chapter was like an aha. Yes, I highly recommend that book too. It— this whole idea of how distracted we are and the process the author went through to kind of withdraw from all the various electronic devices and the withdrawal he experienced. But then the discoveries he was able to make by slowing down. And I think that in our rush-rush, constantly being inundated with information, we don't often realize the impact that's having on our ability to not just focus on something, but stay focused and really give it our full attention. So it was a real eye-opener for me in looking at my own behavior and how to— It is. become more effective and focused and disciplined in a single activity for an extended period of time.

Indeed. I think it's Johann Hari. I may botch the pronunciation there, but, yeah, no, great book and a lot of really valuable things in it too. So, well, first of all, Meredith, I don't know where the time went, but I've so enjoyed— I knew I would enjoy speaking with you and getting to just talk more about the things we both love. And if you've got questions for Meredith, you can go to adamarkel.com/podcast, leave a question there or a comment for Meredith and myself, and we would love to get your thoughts as always. And if this is an episode that you've enjoyed, if there are insights here that you feel like you could share with friends, family members, colleagues, of course, feel free to do so. And thank you for doing so, because when you do that, it helps the algorithm, to get this content out to more and more people. And that's, that's something that's a benefit to us, but it's a benefit beyond us as well. So I thank you for your time in doing that as well. Meredith, thank you again for your time today and for everything that you shared. It's been an absolute pleasure.

Thank you, Adam. I've really enjoyed our conversation too.

I totally love that conversation. I hope you did as well. Meredith Bell, she is just super wise, Very calm, you know, just feel calm in her presence. And the words that she chooses, I think she chooses them carefully, but they're right there. They're not far. She doesn't have to search too far to find them. And that's because she's had 3 decades in this arena of coaching leaders, strong leaders, effective leaders, compassionate, I would say, empathetic leaders, leaders that have a sense of humility, or not just a sense of humility, but embody humility is something that she talked about today. They are the kind of leaders that create psychological safety in their environments. They exhibit a high degree of emotional intelligence or emotional acumen. These are the ones that are able to lead great organizations. They're able to lead teams that can do amazing things, even miraculous things in the marketplace and outside of that space as well. And I love that. And you meet people like Meredith who are helping other people to be better, to do better based on learning, being learners. And I, that's the key, right? I, I, a coach of mine was so influential. I was thinking this morning of the people that have coached me in my life, the people that I would even call mentors in my life. And, and I've been blessed to have a number of them. Probably can put 'em on one hand, but that's, that's a lot to have 5 people that you could think back on your life. Yeah. life, in your life have been, have taken that, that kind of interest in you and that you were open at that stage and phase to receive that mentorship, to receive the wisdom from somebody. And a coach once said to me that when you, when you know better, you can do better. What a great phrase. And I've never forgotten it. When you know better, you can do better. And, and this is an invitation to learn. That's what it means. It's not an invitation to always be right. It's not an invitation to always succeed. It's an invitation to learn. And often, and that begs the question, how do we learn? Well, often we learn from failure. We learn from making mistakes. We learn from being human beings, from falling down and picking ourselves up. And this is how we learn. As children, we know this, right? We don't know how to tie our shoes. We have to learn. And we look like if we were judging a child for how they tie their shoes, you'd think they would never get it. You would think they were idiots or something, and you'd be very impatient with them. But instead, we're loving and kind and nonjudgmental because we know that that child, after making enough mistakes, after tying their feet together or tying knots, will eventually learn, you know, with 2 rabbit ears first or whatever their process is. But they will learn how to tie their shoes. They will learn how to walk and eventually learn how to run and jump and do a multitude of things. And as adults, I think we just lose sight of that. We just forget that that's the process that we must learn. And we learn in odd ways. And we do learn from success. But I've found in my own experience in life and in business, certainly, that I've learned a great deal more and the lessons have been more poignant when they've been the result of things that didn't go well, didn't go right. And some even extreme examples of that kind of thing that we might call failure. Yeah. So struggle is optional. That's another thing that someone once said to me, shared with me, which I think is, is really truly amazing. And to me that means, you know, struggle is something that is the result of our failure. In this instance, our failure to learn, because when we do learn, we will eventually get things done differently and we will figure stuff out. That's how businesses pivot and succeed. That's how we as individuals, as As people pivot and succeed. But if we're not willing to engage in that process, to have humility, as Meredith said, well, then it gums up the whole thing. It slows down the process, and we suffer, and we suffer needlessly. So in any event, I, I did so enjoy the conversation today with Meredith. Again, I hope it was valuable to you. If it was, please share it with a friend, a colleague, a family member that might benefit from hearing things like this. And of course, we'd love it if you'd give us your highest rating on the platform that you consume this show, whatever that might be. Because when you do that, when we get a 5-star rating, it impacts how that platform shares this information with other people that might also get value from it. And that's helpful to us. So I, I say thank you for doing that. It helps this community grow. And if the content is something that you're finding valuable, well, it'd be lovely If somehow through magic, through miracle, through algorithm, algorithmic magic, let's say, other people are able to discover it as well. Again, thank you so much for taking the time to do that. If you've not, uh, discovered for yourself how resilient you are in this moment, a great snapshot of that, what that looks like, can be had by going to rankmyresilience.com. Rankmyresilience.com. 16 questions, less than 3 minutes. That's all it takes. Weeks, and you will get your own personalized confidential report of just how resilient you are. And feel free to use this with your teams as well. Feel free to reach out to us if you would love to get more insight on what that data means. We typically aggregate data for organizations and for teams and for associations as well, all the time, as part of either my having keynoted one of their conferences or sometimes doing workshops for them, or even in discussing what our consulting services from WorkWell look like. But we are very committed to creating healthier workplaces. And transforming the world of work is something that we are very much getting up every morning and feeling inspired to help to do. So thank you for your participation in today, for being a part of this. And again, thank you for being in this community. We appreciate you so much. Ciao for now.

Thanks for listening. We hope you now have even more tools and greater insights to build resilience and become change-proof. Remember to leave a review on Apple Podcasts, and you may be featured in an upcoming episode. For more resilience tips and strategies, including support for building change-proof teams, visit adammarkel.com. To get your own free resilience assessment, go to rankmyresilience.com.