Understanding And Embracing Your Play Type With Elaine Chung

Life happens, and not always the way we expect it to. Every single day we face change, stress, and uncertainty. What if you could learn to thrive no matter what life throws your way? Resilience expert Adam Markel and his inspiring guests explore breakthrough strategies to fully embrace change and build the resilience required to become change-proof.

Well, I've got another episode of the Change Proof Podcast for you. So welcome. I'm Adam Markel, and today I have an amazing guest. Her name is Elaine Chung. She is a play expert and founder of My Play Type, who is on a mission to supercharge how we all embrace and integrate play every day. With her background in team psychology and organizational behavior combined with her corporate leadership experiences, she helps Fortune 500 companies unlock impact, drive innovation, and nurture deep collaboration. She's seen how integrating play neuroscience and understanding your play type can empower people to thrive and overcome the most challenging problems with more joy. Welcome to the show, Elaine Cheung. Okay, Elaine. I love your bio, actually. I, I read these pretty regularly for the show, of course. And then I get to hear my own bio being read by other people. But yours is really, really interesting. There's a lot that I wanna dig into from that. But first, my question to you is, what's something that's not part of this bio? What's one thing not part of the bio that you would love for people to know about you?

Well, when I am not talking about play, I'm fully embracing play and being at play. So every discovery moment, I'm trying to discover things and also staying physical. So if there's anybody who happens to be on the Peloton, I'm at Recharge Mom, and I would love to team ride.

Oh, that's so cool. I love that. Yeah. You know, it's so interesting. I'm in a very play-filled time of my life.

Excellent.

I'll explain to our listeners here for a second. So we've had the blessing of grandchildren over the last couple of years. Actually, now we have 2 and one more that's on the way, which is ridiculously exciting. And our oldest grandchild is a little boy, and he's almost 2 and a half now. So we are playing from like 7:00 AM in the morning until 7:00 PM. I won't kid you into thinking that we're constantly in play because we're not. We get hours of the day here and there where that's just what's going on. Because for a 2-year-old, their life is just play. It's literally just one plaything after another. And then just me personally, I have gotten very much into tennis after so many years of having not played. I played in high school and then just went into a different arena when I was in college and stuff. And I'm just so embracing of all the fun of running around on a tennis court. And I, I have my moments and whatnot, but, and I'm competitive to be sure, but it's just so fun to just run around on a tennis court and get good and hot and sweaty. You know what I'm talking about, Elaine? Right?

Uh-huh.

So let's dig into what play means to you. So I gave a couple of tangible examples where it—

Yeah, no, those are fabulous ones. And I think oftentimes play can just be associated with kids or even running outside. But if you really drill down to it, even from your tennis side of it, you are having the bravery to try. You're learning new things. You're improving. Like, you're seeing that growth. That is play. Like, that's what that 2-year-old is learning. Like, Oh, when I touch this, it does that. Or if I do this, Grandpa reacts this way. Like, those are the things they're also experimenting with, and you're able to replicate that in the play of tennis. And what I've seen too, like, in company environments, there's opportunities to play even within that, in understanding and creating those environments too. I think when kids are little and they have all the parents and grandparents around, we actually do create a very nurturing environment to invite that kind of like, Low risk-taking, exploration as a community, tight community together. And as we get to be adults and get into the work environment and maybe some societal norms that might start shaping how we may react, some of that closes down. And I've seen that firsthand of just how it closes down and opening it back up of experimentation, how we're doing it together. You can really solve hard problems in that way. And still have much more joy because you're like connected. You're not just doing it just because I have to, or because that's not play, doing something you have to from that regard. So I think that's where there's multiple angles in which I can see play in that really is rooted from the 2-year-old. Like, I know we talked a little bit about just how they're able to bring back awe and understanding and that exploration and how for adults too, like when we are able to include that in more. just how much more energized we feel. Like, you even described it with the tennis, right? Like, you just feel more connected and energized and feel good. Yes, the sweaty part is great, the, the moving, all the physical, like, endorphins that are going on, but you are also growing in your own mental strength. And that is around the neuroscience of play, because the more you repeat it, those pathways continue to stay connected.

I want to dig into this when it comes to the corporate world where you and I both practice, we work a lot not only in leading companies that we're a part of, but also in acting in a sort of consultative way or an advisory role inside of organizations large and small. What we see are people who are not having a lot of fun. I wanna kinda be blunt about it.

Mhmm.

And I wanna get a sense of where this integrates and how, how you present it and how people also receive it? Because, I mean, look, if you ask employees whether they'd like to have fun in their work, they'd say, sure. We'd love to. Now just change the nature of my work, and then I might have some fun doing it. Right? But it

doesn't work that way.

But it doesn't work that way. So how does it work?

Yeah. Yeah. I think multiple layers within it. I think that first, just connecting with the kind of example of what may tend to happen of, like, oh, if you just change everything, it'll be better. The fundamental part for that employee is actually finding out and thinking about where are they at their best, right? Like, where are they really when they're thriving? In the kid play zone, it's called flow, right? Like, certain kids, depending on their play type, that's the root of all of this actually started with kids, was actually understanding how kids play and relating that to their personality because we were like ethologists as parents, like observing in their natural state in play what they were doing. So a Lego player isn't just a Lego player. There are some Lego players that really need the instructions. There are other ones that just build something to crash something. There are other ones that just want the figurines, right? And really tapping into and understanding what that is for you as an adult is really critical. So you can be in the business sense and you're like, hey, look, I thrive actually in Excel sheets. That's— this was one for me. And you wouldn't think that initially, but it's because of that discovery That exploration that I can do with the different levers, the research that I have to do behind it to even understand, like, okay, this means this percent would be applicable of the population and not the other percent. That investigative nature is what I thrive in. And so thinking back to yourself, if you're the employee, where are the areas that you thrive? Who's really around you? What type of work are you doing? Are you inside? Are you outside? Are you sitting? Who are you around? are really critical components to bring that joy and to bring that playfulness because you really will feel at play when you're doing those things, even though it's for work, right? Even though it's for a company. But it's important to tap into those because recently read an article where it was like the number one regret of life was that they didn't have the courage to live a life their own. And if you're just kind of like roboting through the day, you aren't really living a life your own. So you should like try, just try. And that's one of the big things that kids do is like they have the bravery to try. Like if us as adults, learned to walk now and fell as many times as that 1-year-old did, or even that some 9 to 10 months old do, we would not get up at all. So really tapping into that little kid. It's so good that you have grandkids just around you just to help spark that inspiration even more right in front of you. That's why I think it's just so magical about kids. And I have young kids myself, is just tapping into that side of it when I'm feeling maybe a little bit down or a little bit lost. It's like, okay, no, no, no. What would they do? What would they do in this situation? All right. would actually try it out, find out what they like, and just keep that. So that's one of the main, I think, components from that sense. Another sense though, like when we look at the employer and the organization setting, just how I described, like in families, we kind of create some of these things that makes the kid feel safe. And it doesn't just happen like once in a while, it's consistent, right? It's consistent that they know that they're safe, that they can do this, they can try this. That's why They melt down at the end of the day only to the parents. They hold it all together at school, but only to the parents or to their family. So this creation, like if you really want deep collaboration, you've gotta create that within the organization as well. And that is creating that play nurturing environment. And it can be bite-sized. It doesn't have to be like, hey, we're all play all the time. Like play actually isn't all loud, right? Play is really creating these environments where you're genuinely curious. Like, you know, the kids ask like gazillion questions, right? but they're not asking to one-up anybody or to prove that they're smarter. They're actually asking to fundamentally understand, like, what are the interconnections, the causes? And so if we all kind of approach our conversations from that realm, that's a start, like, within an organization, genuine curiosity. And creating moments, secondly, of, like, trying. And in companies, it can be hard to kind of think of it as, oh, we're gonna just try everything. It's just, whimsical kind of attitude, but it's not. So it's like develop a low-risk situation to even make it bite-sized for your organization, for your team, especially if it is an organization where there's not much trust. They'll want something real low-risk and bite-sized. And it can be as simple as, I think one group I had recommended just based on their virtual regional standpoint is like, how about you all just choose one cafe to meet up? Once a month just to not be virtual anymore, but you're kind of like in the same city. Meet up once a month and just rotate, rotate who chooses the place. Because one, your bravery is something new, low risk, right? And then 2, exploring together. I think that's such a critical component of embedding that togetherness, that play naturally. Like when kids are playing, like they don't even think of it as like, oh yes, I'm including this. And I'm like, no, it's all embedded within it. And for adults, we have to craft that a little bit more because as our brains grow, the kind of plain neuronal paths, they kind of disappear. So that's why there's this test. Dr. Land, he did one for NASA and it was a creativity test. And what it showed was that in essence, 5-year-olds are more creative than the astronauts that they hired. And it goes back to the brain because when you look at a kid's brain, especially, I'll go back to the inspiration right now of that 2-year-old grandkid. They have so many neuronal paths growing, and it's like, as we age, as we get older, the ones that happen the most, they get solidified. The ones that don't happen the most, they slowly get pruned away.

So they do it as adults.

Yeah, yeah, yep. So it's like those roads are gone. So as adults though, if we want to try to shape it in a different way, we need to recreate that pathway. But you don't just create it once, you have to keep embedding that in daily practice. And it's the same thing if you think of it as an organization, because an organization is made up of people, right? Like each individual person. So it can't just be an annual event. Like, I think some clients are like, we have a team event. I'm like, but what do your leaders do on a daily basis, on a weekly basis, on each interaction they have with their employee? And does that link up with the type of culture that you want to build? Because if you don't have that, It won't happen. It just won't happen. And it goes back to the whole brain side of it. Like, we want to recreate it where it's like you don't even think about it and you know, like, I'm going to do it this way. I'm going to include it this way. Here's how I'm going to embed other divergent thinking and make it feel safe for the team. Because we can't just say, I'm going to make it safe and make a proclamation. When has that ever worked? So I know I just said a lot. So—

No, no. I mean, I've taken notes. There are some things I want to circle back to. So thank you for doing that. You said kids, they are willing to try. They bravely try things, and adults generally don't. So I think answered part of my question, which was you said that those play neuropathways that are very much being used when you're a 5-year-old, when they're not being used, they over time sort of dissipate or atrophy or whatever the right way to see it is. And part of your work in the world is to help to to get people back to a place where they can play more and connect and collaborate more effectively. I want to understand the relationship between connection and collaboration, between those things. And I also want to understand if somebody hasn't been playing for many, many years, you know, like as part of the bulk of their— what their experience of living is. Mm-hmm. How hard is it to create a new neural pathway for something that someone has not been actively engaged in doing? It must be difficult. I'd love to just understand a little bit more about what that looks like when you're working.

Yeah. So easier than you may first think, but I'll answer the first one first about connection and collaboration. When we think of collaboration on the surface, it's like people talking together solving a problem. But when we take another step deeper, It is like feeling the urgency of the problem solve, feeling that how to think about the ideas more differently to solve a hard problem. Because when you are not in an environment, so if we take the other side of like, if we are not in an environment where we feel safe to share a wild idea just because we're trying to figure something out, or we're sharing an idea where we know we don't have all the facts, but here's what it could lead to, but helping that to be the starting point. If we don't have true connection, it won't feel safe. It won't feel safe to offer the idea. It won't feel safe to iterate on the idea. And so therefore you won't have deep collaboration and consistent collaboration. I think that's a, a key component of it. I was talking to another executive leader who is trying to connect and trying to change the environment. But as we peel back the layers of what's in that environment, it's not one person saying, let's play together, in essence. Yeah. It doesn't work that way. So, we had to really unpack all these other components of it. And some of it is even to the point of like the other leaders that are within organization and understanding the political pulls that may be there. But you have to be aware of them then to navigate that. So, then what is a, again, like lower risk, Safe space to get to the start.

What I'm hearing is that, to use a term that people are familiar with these days, that in creating psychologically safe environment and that an environment where people can connect in a fun way, maybe even in a little bit of a competitive way, but ultimately in a way that is more creative, that creates this deeper collaboration Or an opportunity for deeper collaboration because now people can fail together. They can do things—

Experimenting together.

They're exploring without fear of judgment or of reprisal.

A lot of that happens as we get older. Like, we have all those societal, cultural, even familial, like, or even your friends, like, all these different constraints that can really mold what we're afraid of or not afraid of. And I think, just to go back to the psychological safety side, I think one big thing to remember that leaders should always remember too, there's not one box or one flavor of psychological safety that fits everybody. And so to understand the gradations of your own team members or just being receptive to that is really important because you may really be crafting a psychological safe place. And I've seen this happen where a leader will say, we're gonna brainstorm, I'm gonna whiteboard. And like some, that statement is enough. Others, if all that her other actions or his other actions don't suffice to support that side of that, it's safe to brainstorm, doesn't work for them. It doesn't work.

Right. Because there's still that moment where, for me, it brings me back to being in 3rd grade and being in the classroom. And at least my memory of that experience was that to raise your hand and have the wrong answer or to ask a question that Seemed to give away the fact that you didn't know. You were like less smart than the other kids that were pretending to be smarter than they were or whatever. That in that environment, I was very unsafe. In that environment, it was like judgment from those around as well as even from the teacher, which was really the issue.

Right.

The issue in my 3rd grade experience. So that's curious there too. So What's an example of ways that you can help leaders to play and experience and have this experience of connection with one another? What's a good example of something that you've done?

Yeah. Well, I think the starting point is actually to start within. So you as a leader, like, where— I asked this question earlier, but where are you at your best? And think back really to that because that can set the tone of how you're leading the group and help you understand why some tendencies of this way versus that way. But then looking at your own team and understanding, in essence, their play type at work. And you can see that by like, what do they get excited about? So that first question, like when you're doing your one-on-ones, be genuinely curious about the work that they're doing and what they're achieving and what they like and they don't like. I've seen too many times the one-on-ones that go and it's like a checklist, like, what's the progress on this? Okay, do you have any blockers? Okay. And that really it happens frequently, and that's more of the consistent thread that gets built over and over again versus a pause on the inquiry of, for this project, what was the part that really resonated with you? And yes, you're always, as a leader, wanting to marry what your employees are really good at and thrive in with what the work has to be done. But if you can even pull them into things that they already thrive in, into other projects, you'll have a better sense of that just by asking that genuine, curious, Question consistently. I think that's the thing is we don't do it consistently enough. We do it like review time. So at best, maybe it's quarterly when you do your quarterly reviews, but for most that I've seen, honestly, it's year-end. Okay, that will not build a consistent thread. And when we talked about the neural pathway and stuff like that, nah, that's, that's not gonna cut it. And so really keying in on that as a first. But I, I think I see you have a question.

I wanna just circle back and define what a play type is. I know that your website is myplaytype.com. So that's a pitch for your website. Right? I don't typically do that, but this is perfect here. I would love for people to know how do you define a play type? Because probably a term many folks have not heard before.

Yeah. Well, it rooted from kids. And so in looking at and observing how kids, when they're really in the zone, Even 2-year-olds lasting for several hours on one activity is a big deal. And understanding and tapping into that, that we as adults actually also have that zone. And so you can think of it as your play type, your thrive zone, really where you can lose track of time doing what it is, whatever that is. And taking that moment though, and like, so each of us has certain play types. There can be— Mm-hmm. Like for me, I'm an extreme explorer. So any work that doesn't allow me to explore and investigate new situations, I struggle. And so there are other types too, like organizers. Like if their things around them are not organized, it's a stressor. And so understanding those aspects can relate to the job that they do, like whether it be project management or why they might feel spiraling when they're more in a more entrepreneurial sense. And so that helps you fine-tune and also figure out inward. And you can see it on a daily basis, not just a personality test, but you can see it in your own kind of activities and behaviors. When you're exploring and doing those things, you're able to find out. So that's what that is.

Got it. Good. So when it comes to failure, I just wanna bring that up and talk about this because, as you said earlier, when kids are learning to walk, they fail all the time. And I've now been reliving this experience through grandchildren, which is amazing because to think back when our 4 kids were all crawling and then learning to walk. I remember, but it's also a minute ago. But now I'm seeing it. And you're right. No kid— I've never seen a kid yet that is down on themselves or sulking or frustration that they can't walk. It's like not a thing. It's just fall down, get up, fall down, get up, fall down, no matter how often that happens until they do it. So at some point, For young people, for kids, and then that become adults or big kids, failing has a very different meaning for them. Very different experience for them. So you have a thought or a theory about that? I'm not maybe asking you to step outside your own. Yeah.

I have middle schoolers. And so one big component is not thinking about that there's failure, But that they have the bravery to try, that they have embedded the bravery to try. And I have them focus on that because you're right, like the whole failure, it's the F word. It's another F word that brings in all these other things of judgment and identity crises as well. Like, but really treating it at the core of you had the bravery to try. Did you try your best? Did you really try? That's what's important to get over that focus on the failure side. So instead of, oh, we don't have a fear of failure, we really have the bravery to try. Yeah. Remove the judgment. Exactly.

That's our real fear, right? It's not so much failure, but what it means and what—

Everything that's loaded in that word, right?

Yeah, totally.

We really change it in like, I keep saying that bravery, but it's like we are brave every time we try because we know we will fall. But we're focusing on that, the try part, the momentum, not the downward slope, right? And that can help really get out of that mental funk that can happen.

Sure. It's funny. It's going back to a different— it's a reference point, but it's going to tie it to a particular time in history when Star Wars was just emerging. Was it Star Wars? Yoda's in Star Wars, right? Yeah. Yoda's a figure in Star Wars and the great wise All-Knowing Yoda said something like, there is no try. You do or do not do. Right? Something along those lines.

Yeah.

But when I hear the word try, it's still embedded in me that there is no— there's no try.

You do or do not. Or

do not do. Right?

Well, I would say start every day a little bit. Just try. Just try.

So when you bring this to an organization, because I'm very much involved in organizational culture design and development, As well. So I'm curious when you say, okay, so today we wanna help our leaders to develop the bravery to try, or you're looking to help your middle managers or your— the new hires to learn that having bravery to try is something we value around here.

Mm-hmm.

I'm curious. I want a good story, and I want an ugly story, like, meaning, I wanna, a culture with, you don't have to name the company, of course. Yeah. But a culture that completely just would not embrace that or actively said, nope, that's not, we're much more Yoda-like around here. We're not gonna go for that. Right? Or a company and a company, I'd say, that, that just wrapped their arms around this concept and, and went with it. Kinda share a little case studies.

Yeah. I think the first start is to understand, like, Like both these scenarios I'm about to give is first kind of understanding their tolerance and appetite right away, because I know I'm not going to be able to— there's a whole elephant analogy about eating an elephant, but maybe I won't try that one right now. But like, won't try to tackle the entire beast and know like where to start from. So if their tolerance is really just at the project team level, let's do that just for them to get a taste of it. If they're trying or believing that they want to do it at a bigger level, okay, we'll aim for that. So I'll give the example of when they embraced it fully, and it was more knowing and understanding, okay, they wanted on the project side, on this main working group, what we wanted to do. And the first part was actually understanding the playground rules, right? Like, how do we want to operate together? Kids, again, like, I use that as a root of all this work because it's easy to tap into as well for employees. And even without kids, they can see kids around them. The playing doesn't just happen. Like, they're actually negotiating, like, how they want to be or what parts they want to play in. So having that upfront of what the lanes are, how you want to operate, the rules of engagement with your playground, so, so important. And so this team embraced that aspect of it. Again, it was just, quote unquote, just a project, but establishing the norms of what those operating guidelines would be. was essential. And then through that, knowing that some of the team members, I'll say like 50/50 on like who felt really comfortable and like kind of, but they clicked together, right? And then you have this other pod that less. And so being purposeful and mixing in a safe environment. So knowing that, okay, even if we're workshopping through a problem, sitting everybody at a table for 2 hours and somebody on a whiteboard, virtual or physical, Is not going to engage those other members or help them feel safe. So in order to do that, you need a small micro moment. So pairing them up in different ways, they don't have to share anything back to the larger group, but they're more comfortable with smaller playdates and groups just to start. And then as they built this over the weeks, over the months, then they were able to then feel all right grounded in, okay, here were the guidelines we were okay with and cool with. And now I feel like I know you as a person. I know you're not judging me. So that safety you've built, again, like you can't build it just from one meeting. You have to be consistently performing that and breaking down the groups in order to do that. So they were able to not only solve what they were trying to solve with that project, but man, they felt way closer. They felt way closer within that. And that's the good story from that end.

Yes.

And then I have another one of— so came in seeing that there were gaps, a kind of like survey within amongst the ranks. But the leadership had thought they needed— they wanted a culture shift. They wanted to embed their 5 pillars in. That was what they wanted to get through.

Not project scope, bigger scope.

Yeah, but they were like entire— yeah, company culture.

Let's do it organizational.

Yeah. And we have these 5 things that we did 2 years ago. And those we want. And there's always a question mark when you have new people in. They had a lot of change happen. Like, are these really the playing guidelines? Like, how is this happening? And then with that, it was like talking with a lot of the employees, unpacking all of it. It fizzled out in the sense of like understanding that those things weren't really what were matching up. And even if they were, all the— and I've been calling them micro moments because those are the things that can be repeated. But these things that the leaders were doing did not make them feel this way, like all the rules that they set aside. So they didn't even want to participate in sharing these aspects of it.

Right. Because it felt— or I'm asking, not saying.

Yeah, yeah, no.

It felt phony.

Yeah, yeah.

Totally phony.

So there's like a total disconnect.

Yeah. Right. The dissonance. Yeah. Right.

Yeah. And to mend that, you need leadership to understand that there's dissonance because the employees, they just want to have a good time, at least, like what they're doing. Like, they don't want to be miserable in what they're doing. They don't want work to be draining. Like, that's a common theme, right?

Right.

Sure, it may not be like whoop-de-doo every day, but at least not be completely draining all the time. And so this is where, on a leadership standpoint, it was very hard because they were set in those 5 things, that values that they said that they wanted to do, and they didn't think They had the time to integrate on a daily basis how to help support that. They were just busy with the outcome.

Sure.

Of like, we need revenue. And I think,

yep,

there's a lot of research actually that tells you some of your hardest problems, if you're able to activate your employees to solve it quickly, that's actually your money made. But certain organizations though, it's really hard to break that particular nut because they're not ready to listen. I kind of equate it to seeing a therapist. Like, when we're ready to see a therapist, open arms and listening. But when we're not ready, we're just not ready. And that can be really hard. Like, they'll need to see more evidence and things like that. That's what I'll continue to work on. But I know on an appetite level, like, they're probably, they're not mentally ready to really do what it takes in order to embed that. And it is partly like, all right, every one of your meetings, you should start off with the different exercise versus like a list of All right. What's the progress update? Is it red, green, yellow? Those things make it very rote and make the signals to the employee to act a certain way as well.

Yeah. Exactly. And I think that is in so many different areas that we've worked in. We've seen that same thing that the lack of trust in the employee's ability, capacity to solve complex problems, I think, is at the root of why organizations will revert to what is a fear-based plan when change happens because we work in the change space a lot. And there's an almost not quite, maybe it's an instantaneous reaction to meet change with resistance or meet it with fear. But to revert to, yeah, we just need to shore up our finances. And that's why even in the environment that we're in right now, the market we're in at the moment, which is filled with some uncertainties, you see a lot of organizations that are meeting this moment With the same old fear-based, let's tighten it up, the belt. We hired like crazy 2 years ago, but now we're in like, we'll trim again.

Yes, trim again, but then burn out your employees. So it's like the cycle that keeps going on. Burn out your employees or have such a poor experience that their mental health is at risk, which I've seen more postings and conversations about that because of all the trimming. And it's a cycle that I want to help break. Being that, like, if we are able to find out and help your employees find out where they thrive, like, even in the toughest, toughest times, like, you will have this bond with your teammates and solve these types of challenges with just a tad more joy. I think I go through this refusing to believe that we can't have joy in the work that we do for everybody.

It's so interesting. Well, you and I, honestly, Elaine, we couldn't be any more aligned. I, I don't believe so. It's been an absolute joy. It's been pleasure for me to talk to you today and get your insights. I'm sure our community, which is made up of a lot of many, many leaders, senior level, and even people that are just getting into the workforce for the first time, have loved this conversation, I would imagine, and are craving to know more about you. So in the show notes, there'll be more information about who you are, what you do in the world, including your website, etcetera. So it'll all be there. And if people have questions for you or for me based on this episode, of course, they can always include this adamarkel.com/podcast that you can leave a comment or a question there for Elaine or myself, and it will be us, not a bot, no AI. We will answer that question, all that good stuff. And finally, I just wanna ask you, is there something you're reading? I know it's a kind of a little segue here, but I would love to know if there's a particular book right now that you're reading. Or one that you've read recently that you just feel you would love for people to dig into because it would help them in terms of just unlocking—

Well, I got, I got my list right here.

Oh, way cool.

I'll say this one right now.

This is if we planned this, but we didn't. So it's great.

Because I have all these Post-it notes.

I see that.

The Designing Your New Work and Life. And this is by Bill Burnett and Dave Evans. And I think the one part that I really like about it was about these levers of knowing, and this is, I think, to prevent burnout for people out there who may— well, we all have lots of different identities and passions. Let us just admit it. We are not just work self and personal self. There are so many other facets of it, but they have these levers of— I wish I could find it right now, but like a sound mixer of like, okay, you have agency in your life to like expression of it. To another aspect I can't remember right now. But it was just even those things to simplify it. And through that, there's a lot of other ones within yourself. But just starting with those can help you prevent a lot of that burnout. So—

Beautiful. And for us in our language, doing a lot of resilience keynote speaking and afterwork on that topic, how you combat resilience, how you— or combat burnout using resilience is really something I'm very I'm keyed into. So I'd lastly ask you this. What's something that you do? Is it, is reading one of those things that helps you to be more resilient? What's something that you do on a daily basis? Yes.

I think for me, because my play type is so strong on the explorer standpoint, it was to continue exploring because there's a lot of risk there. There's a lot of failure. And just seeing how I'm able to pull in the resources to do it and to figure it out is great. Even as simple as, like, Trying to drive someplace without GPS. All right. So, like, even that is a form of exploration for me.

All right. Well, I'm gonna give you one to do since you totally embrace this.

Love it.

And it's right out of chapter in our book Change Proof, which is the toothbrush test or the toothbrush experiment, if you will. For the next— call it— I'll say the next week. Sometimes it's 30 days. But let's just say for the next week, every time you pick up your toothbrush, whether it's once or more a day, and you typically would pick it up with which hand, right or left?

Right hand.

Right hand. Okay. And I would typically pick up mine with my left. So I want you to just switch.

Okay.

And take this bit of a toothbrush challenge and see how it feels to brush your teeth with the opposite hand. And then just continue for 1 week. See what that's like.

I will report back. Thank

you. Sort of different dendrites in the brain. Yeah. Your pathways are gonna fire for you to— it'll be awkward. It'll feel weird. You feel like, yep, I'm not getting the job done. Yeah. Whatever's gonna come up for you, just explore that and then let me know how it went. Okay?

I love it. I will. Thanks for that.

Way cool, Elaine. You've been a blast. And I appreciate your time today.

Yeah. No. Thank you. Thank you.

I just loved playing. I love to play. I, I, I just love to play in so many environments. And the podcast is a kind of a play thing itself in that it's always just different. It's organically changing. And, I mean, there are certain things I love to ask repeatedly, like that first question. I always love to ask that. Sometimes I settle in on another kind of a groove or whatever, get in my flow state in a similar way. But it's also always unknown. We don't map it out as some podcasts I know are rehearsed or preplanned or even scripted. Is the case is in some respects. I won't call anybody out for that, but ours is really just always fresh. It's fresh for me, and if it's fresh for me, I gotta imagine it's fresh for anybody who's listening as well. And hopefully not just fresh, but also fresh, dope, interesting, rad, fun—all those good things. And if it's not, then I totally want to hear. I want to hear from you to say no. The last thing in the world that it would ever, ever be by intention is sort of calculating and predictable. Because in speaking terms anyway, I can say that the only thing we ever have to really be wary of as people who communicate for a living, any public speakers out there or podcasters, or those of you that present even in work settings, the only thing you really have to be concerned about is being predictable because predictable is boring. So we have to use variance, and you have to do things that take you out of your comfort zone so that you are yourself not predictable even to yourself. And of course, that's scary. And that's why it's a skill set that, like a lot of things, requires practice and patience and willingness to fail, willingness to try bravely. That's something we talked about today. Elaine shared with us about bravery and the bravery to try and embedding The bravery to try in adults and in leaders in organizations, which is funny when you think about it since we were all born with this skill. When we were kids, when we were 1 year old, when learning to walk, or whenever we learned to walk, this bravery to try was embedded in us. And we were that way when we were 2 and when we were 3 and when we were 5, likely. And then at some point later on, whether it was 8 years old or 14 or whenever it was, The bravery to try just kind of dissipated, that it was sounder advice or sounder strategy to be safe and to not attempt and end up flat on your face. Because if that happened, then there was embarrassment, there was judgment, there was consequences, et cetera. And then where do we find ourselves later on in life? Having to solve complex problems like the world has almost never seen before, and business has never seen in this way before. And yet we're coming to that endeavor, to that requirement, even with an incapacity, incapable, so many people of being creative and applying an outside-the-box way of thinking of a mindset that is exploratory, And also lacking in the capacity in many ways to collaborate effectively with others. Play— to play nicely in the sandbox is probably what Elaine Cheung would have said since she is so immersed in how it is that we as adults learn how to integrate play into our work lives and into the cultures at work. I thoroughly love this conversation today and learning about the neural pathways of play, And what a play type is, in fact, just loved it. If you did too, if this was something that inspired you or made you think in different ways and just had you expanding your consciousness, was interesting. Share this episode, please, with a friend, a family member, a colleague at work, or somebody else that you think would just benefit from it. And thank you for doing that, by the way. That helps us. It helps that other person, hopefully. And all that, but it also helps us. So thank you for doing that. Also, if you take the time to provide a rating for the podcast today, hopefully it was a 5-star on the platform that you consume this content. That is also super helpful to us. So I can only say thank you for that. And I'm so grateful for the people that take the time to do that because it helps us. And by helping us, hopefully it means we're also helping more people. It's a ripple effect. So we appreciate you very much for that. With that, I wanna recommend that you take your own resilience assessment. Go to resiliencerank.com or rankmyresilience.com anytime you like. It remains open to you. It is free. It takes 3 minutes, and it helps you to find out, creatively speaking, where are you, where are you succeeding? Where are things, where are you exhibiting resilience traits? And where is the gap? Where's the delta? where that creative space could be filled with maybe some new ritual, some new practice that eventually becomes habitual, that helps you to be more resilient mentally, emotionally, physically, and spiritually speaking. So with that, I wanna thank you again, as always, for your time and for being a part of this growing community. Thank you so much, and have a blessed, beautiful day. And I'll say ciao for now.

Thanks for listening. We hope you now have even more tools and greater insights to build resilience And become change-proof. Remember to leave a review on Apple Podcasts and you may be featured in an upcoming episode. For more resilience tips and strategies, including support for building change-proof teams, visit adammarkel.com. To get your own free resilience assessment, go to rankmyresilience.com.