Unlocking The Secrets To Leadership And Resilience With Dr. Anthony Simmons

Life happens, and not always the way we expect it to. Every single day we face change, stress, and uncertainty. What if you could learn to thrive no matter what life throws your way? Resilience expert Adam Markel and his inspiring guests explore breakthrough strategies to fully embrace change and build the resilience required to become change-proof.

Hey everybody, welcome back to another episode of the Change Proof Podcast. I'm your host, Adam Markel, and you're gonna love the guest that I've got ready for you today. This gentleman is somebody with tremendous insight, great experience, and, and I just enjoy his presence. You're going to enjoy him as well. Let me read his bio and then I'm gonna jump right into it. So Dr. Anthony L. Simmons served 28 years as a Navy surface warfare officer where he retired at the rank of captain. His Navy experience includes 4 at-sea commands, a patrol coastal, 2 AEGIS destroyers, and a destroyer squadron. Ashore, he worked in human resources at the Navy Bureau of Personnel and the Pentagon on the staffs of the Joint Chiefs and Naval Operations as a strategic planner and resource officer. Since retiring, Dr. Simmons has worked in the defense industry as a system and test engineer, experiment planner, and leadership instructor. He earned his doctoral degree in strategic leadership from Regent University. And also, Dr. Simmons is the founder of Sixth Gear Consulting, which is a leadership performance consulting practice that instructs leaders on how to lead through bridging people and technology. Again, you're going to enjoy this conversation. So sit back, find a great place to relax and listen as we gain some tremendous insights from Dr. Anthony Simmons. I really hope you're enjoying this episode of the Change Proof Podcast. If you've not yet gone out and gotten your own copy of Change Proof, it's not too late. You can get your copy right now by going to changeproof.com and not only getting the book and all the bonuses there, but getting access to our proprietary resilience assessment tool. It'll just take you 3 minutes to do, and it's something that will really help you to utilize the book even more effectively to create practices and rituals and habits that will increase your mental, emotional, Again, go to changeproof.com to get your copy today. Okay, Dr. Simmons, now you and I agreed I'm going to call you Anthony, but I wanted to at least get one of those in. All right, so—

Outstanding. I appreciate it.

No, it's just props for everything you've done. You've had quite a career, quite an amazing journey. I really want to ask you, even though that your CV and the bio is impressive and, and most people couldn't even imagine how you could fit all that in, in, in a single life, but you've managed to do a lot of those things that have made such a big impact. My question is, what's something that isn't a part of your record of service and your job history and, and all those amazing credentials? What is one thing that's not included in that? that you would love for people to know about you that maybe people don't know about you?

I'm a blue-collar guy. I spend a lot of time rehabbing homes and working special projects within the community. And also, I have a hobby of working on automobiles. In fact, I was restoring a 2001 BMW 540 manual shift this weekend.

Have you always had a head for that or just understood the components? I mean, like, how do you— because I love cars myself. I've always enjoyed them and whatnot. But put me under— I mean, I can figure some stuff out just common sense-wise, but I don't know how they work. And so I would just— I took something apart, I wouldn't be able to put it back together is my fear.

Yes. My father was an auto mechanic, so I sort of grew up around it. He always had my brother and I to always watch the parts. And he was self-employed once in automobile industry. And also he always ensured that we was able to work on the cars that we actually drove. So I had a '67 Mustang the same year I was born when I was in high school. And I I just watched the stuff he did, and I just always had an affinity for taking stuff apart. So once I restored that '67, I took the entire dash compartment out when I was 16 years old. Probably couldn't do it now. Just amazing how some things we can do when we're young and now we sort of dare to do it. Yeah. So I was around it, and he was a good teacher. So I just had that opportunity. And just the hometown I grew up in and the guys that came through in the '70s, one of the best years for cars around '67 to '69 timeframe. So you had all the Chevelles, the Mustangs, That's, you know, the Dodges that was on the street and pretty popular. So I grew up in that environment.

Indeed.

Yes. Yes.

The original, those Camaros, those early Camaros.

Yes.

The Vettes, obviously, the Stingray and all that.

Yeah. Yes, exactly.

Beautiful.

I was a Ford family guy, but I tell you, I still admired the Camaros and the Chevelles and the Corvettes. So absolutely.

And I want to just maybe follow that thread just a moment more, which is to say, when it comes to taking stuff apart and putting it back together, I want to use this maybe as a Let's, we'll, we'll try this on for size and see if it, if it, if it can fit throughout the, our conversation today. I mean, what do you learn when you're at that young and impressionable age about taking stuff apart and putting it back together or diagnosing what might be wrong? Because it, you know, we don't typically take something that's working, take it apart, put it back together if it's working. I think most often we do that when something's either not working or we want it to work better. And I imagine if you wanted to get more performance out of an automobile, out of an engine, you might take it apart or add something to it to do that. But I want to get back to that, just sort of what's the mindset around, around doing that? Because you're going to break stuff, right? Stuff, you're going to make some mistakes, you're going to put some things back together in the wrong way, it's not going to work. Is, I mean, or did you do it perfectly right out of the gate?

No, I didn't. In fact, I did take stuff apart that worked perfectly. My father brought me a gun that was ignited with a gas chamber in it once, and I had Took it apart on Christmas Day. And boy, he was so got off with it. He was like, you know, I paid more for this gun than I paid for any of my guns. And you take the thing apart, springs went everywhere. So that was a bad experience. But to go back to what you're talking, you know, I did a lot with leadership and I went to Air Command and Staff College in Montgomery down in 2001. I say that and I learned that social science, you know, really evolved right in the '60s. And I look at physical science and social science and I see the parallels there, you know, for us tearing things apart and the discovery inside of things. So if you You don't really dissect, you know, what's the physical side or the social side. Once you get inside of pieces, you understand, you know, the makeup of it. And I think that's the beauty of it when you're there. What is automobile engine or what have you? And just saying, ah, the mixture of parts. I recall the guys in my hometown when I was young, they would take, try to get the max power out of a vehicle, right? So the guys had these 350 engines and they would take them apart and put a 400 intake on them and they would get, you know, maximize the power. So that's the beauty of it. You know, once you get inside, look at the internals, you say, what can I really, really do to add some value to what's really inside of here? So that was a big takeaway, I feel. And the same thing with the human being, you know, on the social science side, you know, you got to get inside of people and dissect them so you can see what's within the realm of the possible. And you have to be resilient, as I'm looking at on your shirt there, because there are going to be some failures. That's in life and also in your challenges, as I talked about with the, uh, with the pellet gun that I took apart.

Yeah. So I want to get into the leadership thing too. I want to— and so you read my mind there. Maybe start with a little bit of your background because You've had the opportunity to work at a very high level and lead folks in military service. So maybe just let's dig into where it was that you first started to learn about leadership yourself in some of those roles. Would you take us back in time to a bit of that?

Well, you know, in life, we do things naturally. We find ourselves, you know, eager, curious when you're a kid and find yourself in certain positions making certain things happen. I was a quarterback. First time I played football, I was 11 years old. I was a tight end. And But I always wanted to be the quarterback. Even we played what we call sandlot football, and I always wanted to throw the ball, but I was young, and so an older guy became the quarterback. So I begged the coach, let me just throw the pass occasionally, you know. So he would put me back there on certain plays to throw the halfback pass, even though I was a tight end, but I would line up at running back. So the next year I was like, hey, I'm gonna play quarterback regardless. So I went out for quarterback. I was not the guy he selected. He brought another guy that he knew to play quarterback, and I said, he has to beat me out. So I became a quarterback my second year of playing football. And then when basketball was the same, I was As a point guard, I always felt that no matter what team I played on, I can make— I can will the team to win. You know, I said, you know, every guy, you guys choose your team and I'll take the leftovers and we're going to beat you with the guys that you guys don't want to have. So I had this innate ability to just lead and then make a difference. And I felt independent in my actions in doing that, for I didn't feel like I had to have someone to push me to make a difference. And as I began to grow and learn, and especially over the latter years, I had a chance to go back and see, to pretty much validate some of those innate natural abilities. And I learned from my Clifton Top 5, you know, my abilities is to be a learner, to be responsible, to be like a lifelong achiever. And then my spiritual gifts from Romans 12 is to teach. So that's just who I— that's my natural makeup. And as I've learned that, and it's just something back and it fed into the way I always happened to appear, you know, and what I strive to be from my formative years. And I just continued to, you know, stay on that glass slope. And then the Navy, fortunately, after, you know, playing And then sports through high school and collegiately. I joined the Navy, which is an organization that was, you know, I was a ship driver. I had a lot of the fancy weapons and worked in combat. But I always like to tell people I really spent 28 years more like a sociologist more than anything, because it was all about the people around me, you know, and then being able to interact with them and, you know, put them in a position to help be successful as an organization.

So, yeah. So a lesson that came out of your time in the Navy, I mean, it's a hierarchical structure. So unlike being in a sporting structure, like in a sports, you know, on a team and, and where you could just decide, well, I wanna be the quarterback even though maybe somebody else was thinking that you weren't suited or they weren't thinking that you were at first glance, they weren't thinking of you in that role, but you decided that you were gonna be in that role and then were able to manifest that through hard work.

Yes. Yes.

And proper attitude. And I imagine you practiced a lot and everything else. And then just all this natural acumen, natural skills. But in the Navy, or in any sort of hierarchical structure like that, you could decide that you, you want to be something, but maybe in that structure, it's either you have to have a lot of patience, or you have to go through a certain process. You have to— and maybe there's some ceilings you can't bust through just because you decide that you can do something. Any of that ring true for you?

It is, but you know, it never bothered me. I always tried to understand the process. Even before the Navy, I would pay close attention to my high school football coaches. And I would say, gosh, man, they get to be a coach. You know, they don't have to do all this sweating and what have you. And I said, maybe one day I'm going to aspire to be like them. Now, I didn't envy their position. They paid the price. They paid their dues. So I said, you know, I want to be able to listen to them and be able to do what it took for them to get to where they are. So I looked at it in that kind. And now, same with the Navy. It was first, it was hard transitioning from a collegiate athlete going into Officer Candidate School, not because I wanted to be front and center. It was just that I had this real aggressive nature and I was real competitive. And I was more surrounded by people that was more academia, a big mixture, you You know, something I haven't had been— had not been exposed to. So you have to learn to be humble. You have to be very patient and, you know, just adjust to the environment and just understand the landscape. So that was, I felt, my key attribute. And as I got more involved with the Navy, I would just watch, you know, the people that did have certain, you know, positions and ones I worked for. And I, you know, I just continued to model, try to see, could I do their jobs? And understanding I could not Not beat them because that comes with time, but I always tried to, as much as I could, to supplant whatever Air Force State was doing and to the point where they established confidence and trust in me and they gave me more and more opportunities to do things. But I did. It was never a problem with positional authority, the hierarchy aspect of it. It was just, hey, if you do what you're supposed to do at this level, then those opportunities will present themselves and you better be ready when they do. So I just wanted to make sure I was prepared for the next level.

Yeah. I don't think I've ever asked anybody that, that was in a role similar to yours whether they had a mentor. And I don't think I've asked that question of any, any of the— I mean, I've had lots of people that have had long and distinguished service careers, but I don't know that I've ever asked about mentorship in the context of military service. So what could you tell us about that? Is that a thing? Did you have it? You know, yes.

You don't go anywhere in life, I feel, without good mentorship. You know, I had a mentorship when I was growing up. You know, I didn't know what mentorship meant. My father was more into the— I'm gonna use the word agrarian lifestyle because that's what he knew and he believed in hard work. We farmed in the summertime, we did logging in the winter. That's, that's what he knew. That's what he was taught, hard work. You know, it was not so much based on, you know, the academic side, but I had a high school principal there that offered, you know, me advice and gave me guidance on the importance of academics, set me up, facilitated, you know, some of my learning, which the word mentor didn't exist, but I could not have accomplished and achieved the things I did, you know, Being prepared to go off to college and understand and appreciate an education without having him there supporting my vision in that regard and also shedding new light on stuff that I just otherwise would not have had exposure to. And as you come into the military, it's very similar. And then it was probably not until maybe 5, 10 years into the military that we made it pretty ostensible that we would be assigned Mentorship, when it came up, was like a little more palatable. And we began to understand and meet with, you know, those individuals that would help champion your career. So yeah, definitely. So I've, I've always had the pleasure and the luxury of a mentor throughout life. And that's why I try to give back as much as I can. But I changed my approach from mentorship to, uh, for as a coach. Some people use the word life coach. I don't really necessarily like that one. I like more like a career coach and professional development coach. So that way you can enact So like on the level of co-equals, not like mentors, more like I see who you are, what you're doing. So hey, be like me. No, that's not how it is. I want to draw introspectors, just have conversations. And it's like I said, it's more of a co-equal, vice someone you look up to based on their accomplishments. So it's a little different process. So, so I try to be more like a coach-protégé model than vice a mentor-protégé model.

And you were 28 years, is that correct?

28 years. Sure did. I did 28 years. Yes. Yes.

And so retiring from that, you were working on a transition plan, I assume, at some point as to what you were going to do after that. It is such a structured life. It can be a challenge coming on, being on the other side of that where that structure is no longer there. I mean, it's no, probably no different than I had a, had a gentleman on our show a couple of weeks ago. He was just retiring from a Fortune 500 company after 33 years, and he was wondering, you know, what the heck, what the heck am I going to do when I don't have 10 meetings all booked up every day? You know, because it's so structured and there's so much to do. You always know pretty much every minute, you know, what it means to be on task. But on the other side of that, it's freedom, but it's also a lack of a certain structure. So maybe, maybe tell us a little bit about what that transition was like for you and what it is that you're currently—

You gotta have foresight no matter what you do in life. You know, you always gotta plan ahead. Something's gonna happen, you know, that's gonna be off ramps here and there. You know, we just don't know what, you know, sometimes on the road ahead, but we have to be prepared for whatever direction, whatever life offers. So I, I, it goes back The simplest, on a plane talking with a retiree. And this is probably, I'm still probably 12, 15 years into the Navy and I'm talking to someone that's sitting next to me and he was like, yeah, you know, this life on the outside, not like it was in the military. It was so much structure in the military. People really cared about each other and you can make so much happen. Out here, no one cares about each other. It's just a free fall. He's, you know, I just really, really miss the military and et cetera, et cetera. So enjoy it while you're there, you know? So I, that's one. So I listened to that part of the conversation, but also listened to the other part. Like it's not the same on on the outside. So what do you do? You take these skill sets. I traveled to over 63 countries. We did a lot of— you go back and look at this, consider the sail of the Great White Fleet. The Navy was always good at diplomacy. So we visit countries. I had captains that would take the young officers in on their official calls and just teach us how to interact with dignitaries from other countries. And we went in, we did community relations projects, goodwill projects, sporting events, just throughout. And you take these lessons. So how did the United States Navy Navy can influence, you know, so many other parts of the world. And we are a pretty large, powerful Navy. But how do you make people comfortable that, you know, develop partnerships so you can actually train and get at the bigger mission? And so I said, gosh, it's just some really powerful stuff I've been exposed to here. So now take this, and once you do leave the military, I had to start preparing myself to get out and do, uh, like inspirational, uh, speeches and, you know, engaging peoples and organizations and trying to help those guys find efficiencies, get people to really appreciate each other, try to bring more unity and connecting this together. Some of what we did in the Navy, you know, throughout, you know, other countries— why can't we do this right here, you know, in America? With so many microcultures that exist in America, sometimes people just don't appreciate that. You know, people talk about ethics, they talk about values, and those are strong beliefs. So sometimes you got to get out of your prism and your beliefs sometimes and try to understand and appreciate things from another person's perspective. And that's when I went off and did my And then I wrote my thesis on Championing Organizational Wellness, which pretty much tees up how do you really, really have people to connect and appreciate each other across disparate cultures and throughout. So I modeled that from what I did in the Navy. And it was a vision that I started framing probably 20 years into it. And I started doing a lot of writing and what have you and just putting all these different concepts together. And which now I'm able to realize that I'm just now really beginning to start that journey and push some those lessons out as I, uh, gain more footing, you know, in the post-military.

So I want to know more about what's involved in championing organizational wellness, because I— that, that I know is something that's near to us, near and dear to my heart personally. And

yes,

you know, in the times we're living in, what we can see— I mean, the signs are everywhere that, that people are burning out, right? Some, some burned out, some, some are just in the process of burning out, right? But, you know, anxiety levels, Mental health challenges. I mean, this is real. Nobody's screaming fire and it's not a false alarm at this point. So,

yes.

Yeah. So I think maybe we get a little granular on what that looks like to you.

Okay.

Yeah, I'd love that.

Okay. Well, when I, I went through Joint Command Staff College, we tried to become joint qualified officers and I started at the basic with inter-organization relationships and we were discussing 9/11 and all the different information that was available. How did we really apply that? You know, it was enough of information that probably could help us to prepare better, you know, for what potentially happened. Sometimes you get overwhelmed with information. You don't know what information to really apply. So I've always been big on the human intervention, you know, the people skills. I started this company, Six Gear Consulting, Six Gear, in order to bridge people and technology to get, you know, the foundational pieces of human intervention in place. And so I forward that into— fast forward that into a champion organization while I'm doing my doctorate degree, and then pulling from what I had experienced in the Navy with connecting people, some initiatives to have people work, you know, together, looking at how we deal with the younger generations. As far as a performance perspective, how do we do cross-functional training? A lot of different tools that I saw. And, and people, you notice the term organization development, it's just so common. I say, you know, we all— a lot of people practice organization development, but they bring, uh, consultants, outsiders come in to work with organizations and teach certain skill sets, but they never sustain itself. So I just went back look at what I had experienced in the Navy, the good and the bad, the type of leaders we had, the ones that was more inclusive, that provided platforms and instruments for us to work better as a team. And I instituted, implemented some of those programs in the ships that I was actually commanding. And one of them is the mentor, which I called a coach-protégé program. If I had kids come from different parts of the world, not familiar with each other, I personally was involved with aligning mentors and protégés so they could get to know each other, they can learn from each other. And that's another advantage of a coaching relationship, mentoring. It's a relationship of co-equals where you guys really grow together. And that's what Champion Organizational Wellness brings all these concepts together. So essentially what it distills down to is organizational wellness is the confluence of organizational development plus organizational sustainment. So how do I get development? I get it through trying to grow as an individual through self-assessment. That's navigating blind spots. You know, it's the ought self versus the won't self. That's overcoming some of your, maybe your cultural norms, some of your ethical beliefs and what have you. And then you link with another, uh, your, uh, aspiring leader through a coaching conversation. And I always say meeting people halfway is not the same. People got socioeconomic status, they got background differences. So halfway is not always the same distance for everybody. So how do you reach people? So I did my dissertation in leadership coaching when I was going through the doctoral program. So that was my means to establish that those foundational pieces, self, assess myself. So, you know, and how did you grow? We talk about how I read a lot. I read right now, I just read Optimum by Daniel Goleman and Tyrannis. And they've been studying this whole emotional intelligence concept for over 25 years. And so I'm going to take some of the lessons from there. Also Stephen M. Covey, Trust and Inspire, because it's no longer a command and control hierarchy platform that we're dealing in nowadays. We got to better relate to people. So those are my foundational pieces for championing organizational wellness as I put this triangle in place as organizational wellness wellness in the bottom of the triangle is those 3 pieces I just talked to there, assessing yourself, getting better, overcoming blind spots, and then having a coaching conversation to link with the person you're trying to aspire to do better. Then once you come together and meet him wherever that location is on that bottom of the triangle, then you have to go through what I call, you have to be culturally agnostic. What does that mean? I have to understand other cultures. I have to improve my cultural intelligence by talking to people, getting to know them. We went into other countries, getting into the trenches with them, understanding life from their perspective so we can better engage them. Then the last piece was the coaching organization, an organization where you empower people. And I like to use the word more now, encourage people, enable people to do better through giving them the tools and the instruments to get exposure, get access to some of the same information that you begin to co-create. And that's, that's, uh, and you do that through a coaching organization. And people will talk about, I want to have a flat organization. But what does it mean to have a flat organization? People don't have access to the same information. They don't have too much to offer you. So you have to imbue people with, you know, a certain level of knowledge where you do strategic thinking and strategic acting in the same space. That way you can deal with change throughout that organization. So that's what I really call true empowerment. And that's that, again, I take the organization that has people that are encouraged, empowered, and what have you. And then with being culture agnostic, that's your ways to get to the top of that triangle. And once you're to the top of that triangle, that's what equates to organizational wellness, that I walk together there, me as the leader and the aspiring leader. And once we get to the top of that triangle, then it becomes leadership succession, where now that aspiring leader has to the same skill sets, the same tools, and that I have, I can circle him around back into the bottom of that training that he can bring someone else along. And then we got leadership succession, and we got people that just continue to go into your organization is reaching peak performance. So that's the genesis of organizational wellness. In the last chapter I mentioned earlier was the tools in the back is chapter 8, and those are— you have to have your main thing. What's really important? You know, you have to communicate the same message to your organization. You know, and mine was always responsibility, accountability, loyalty, and trust. And I always felt that accountability And loyalty was two ways, you know, from senior to junior, junior to senior. And then responsibility is just, you know, you're responsible to the person you work for to do your job. And then loyalty is, you know, it's top down. You know, you got to do right by people. And sorry, loyalty is one way. Then trust is the other one. There's two ways, trust and accountability. So it's just important for the guys that work for me to trust me as it is for me to trust them. So some people don't understand that sometimes. They just feel like it's a matter of the senior person trusting the junior person. So those are my main things. And then the other one was was you have to have people, you have to have human resource strategies, professional development strategies for people to give them an opportunity, you know, let them know what the vision, what the future holds for them, especially in the world we're in today. People want— we did delayed gratification. Nowadays, people want gratification to be a little more tangible. And then it's the mentor or the coach and protégé model. And then it's the cross-functional training. Those are the tools that I use in that final chapter. And that's how you sustain organizational wellness, by giving people the independence to grow. And that way they'll stay around. You try to get rid of this quiet quitting. So they just have to be assured that, you know, they are connected and people actually investing in their well-being.

Yeah. I mean, you said a lot there. So I want to maybe just talk about a couple of things. But I mean, if you were going to design culture, if you're going to redesign a culture today, given just what you've seen, because you worked with multiple organizations and you came out of a very large organization, a very structured organization, as we said earlier, the US Navy, I'm curious if there's something that would have to be part of the, of the design build of an organizational corporate culture, for example, or it could, doesn't have to be corporate, but a culture that's being designed on purpose today, given what's going on in the world. The environment we're in is not the same as it was before the pandemic. And I'll say anecdotally, what we hear from organizations that we work with, we hear that their culture was what got them through the pandemic. That's right. That's we hear that frequently. They attribute the culture as part of this the the what was their sort of their their superhero power or their the thing that was that buoyed them in the midst of that uncertainty, and I get that, and that makes sense. But on the other side of the pandemic, asking that organization or those leaders the questions about how their culture is today, they say well it's not the same culture as it was before. And so if the pandemic were to happen right now. and that organization was to come together the way it did years ago, you know, just, just a few years ago, it might not be the same result because the culture feels different than it did before. So I wanna come back to you and ask you to comment on any of that, whether, whether you've, you've also seen that the culture before pandemic and post-pandemic is different. And really back to the first question of, like, if you were gonna design, build a culture today, what would it look like? If it would look differently than it would've looked 5 years ago, what would be the difference?

Absolutely. I told you, I study a lot. I read a lot. You have to, because in order to add value to people, you have to understand and pace, you know, the changes. And I recently read Hybrid Workforce: Discussing Talking Culture. Sometimes, again, how does a hybrid workforce really work? You got to be careful not to overstrain, over-constrain the problem. No hybrid, you know, we did remote during COVID Before then, it was more on-site. So now we want to sort of have your cake and eat it too. We're going to have both, right? So now we got determine who's hybrid and who's not hybrid? How do we do this? How do we do that? So you got to be very careful. Don't sort of envision something that's not tenable. So that's my concern with that part. And some people don't know where they are culturally, but you have to establish a culture as a leader, and you have to be very genuine as you establish that culture. And according to Shenzhen, some research, it's 4 culture types. Okay? You got the hierarchy culture. You have the clan. That means where everyone develops, comes together as a team. You have the market in order to pace change. society, chase the market. And then you got the ad hoc culture where you stand up for certain situations. Okay. Now I have a friend I went to officer school with named Mark Devine. He came up with this term called VUCA. He's a, he's a, he's a former Navy SEAL. He's doing a lot of great things out there post-military as well. But VUCA means—

V-U-C-A, right?

Yeah. Yeah. VUCA. That means volatile, uncertain, complex, and ambiguous. So that's what that really means. That means you got dynamic external actors. The market is all over the place. Things are changing. People So how do you do that? And I mentioned earlier about strategic thinking and strategic acting in the same space, right? So that means you have to empower people. And what clan cultures do, they develop people and train them, increase their skill sets so they can work together. So yes, there's always going to be some hierarchy structure like the military, but the environment we in today, you have to have what I call— and I'm doing a presentation down in Florida for the American Nurses Conference on the 28th, 29th of May. And so I'm putting the product out there. You have to blend those cultures. You got to do hybrid cultures nowadays. You can't just fixate on market. And that's what you'll find sometimes in the defense contractor sector. People trying to chase market conditions. And sometimes when I say market, what does that mean? I mean, a lot of stuff is based on profit and loss more so than anything. You have to cut personnel sometimes because the market drives that. But then people feel like you are being disloyal to them now. So you have to have a combination of that market culture as well as that clan culture. You got to still grow and develop people. You got to invest in people as well as, yeah, they do understand the conditions, but you have to also make them appreciate what it is you're doing so they can have a big grasp of it. You just can't be disingenuous about how you're really managing your organization from a cultural perspective. So you got to be agile within those cultures, and you got to blend them in a hybrid-like fashion, because it's a lot of moving parts. You know, you want to turn all those conditions into opportunities and, you know, put a positive spin on them. That's my take there.

You know, when you were in the Navy, you really— and I'm speaking for you, but I'm asking you to correct me, okay, if I'm speaking out of turn— I would imagine you weren't worried about your job security. You did your job, you're going to keep your job. And if you did your job well, there was a road ahead, there was a career path that, that you could at least look to and, and plan on to some degree. That's accurate, right?

That's very accurate. Yes. You had job security. Yes. And you see a similar approach now. I mean, when I retired, I could have became, you know, applied, became a government civilian and had the same level of security. That's the other option is not become a government civilian and become a contractor, which I chose the latter and with less security. And so why did I do that? Because I felt that I prepared myself that I could bolster or enhance my job security by being better So

I guess the reason I'm bringing that up was just because it is a curious thing that when you watch organizations again coming out of the pandemic, many of them that were, were just at the beginning sort of wondering if they— how much pain would they endure, and for some whether they'd even survive. And then 2 years later, they were having their, their best years, you know, one after another, best year, best revenue, etc. And yet in the same context, there were layoffs. layoffs that were happening.

Yes.

And people were contracting the market, as you say, market culture based on market forces. They began to contract and people were losing their job.

Yeah.

And, and it's just an, it's an interesting thing when we think about what culture, what effective culture looks like, that in the midst of that, there's this insecurity that's baked in. And I wonder if you have an opinion as to whether or not that inherent insecurity on the part of people that working in those jobs actually is helpful to them, is helpful to the organization's performance, and in developing the kind of culture that can succeed for the long term, whether that insecurity or fear even plays out well or is useful or whether it's counterproductive action. Well,

that's a loaded question.

It is a bit of a loaded question.

It is.

And feel free to like push it back at me, anything you like there. You know, I think it's an important question.

It's a very important question and There's no direct answer to that question. Once again, we go to being resilient. We talk about being agile, we talk about being flexible, and we have to be sometimes comfortable being uncomfortable. You used the word security and how you are as a person, right? And, you know, risk. Some people are risk-averse. When we had the pandemic, it was tough, but we adapted as a country. And I always like to think America as a whole is a very— we're a very resilient country. We do get And we got innovative and creative as a result of the pandemic. And go back and read history, you know, went through the Great Depression. You know, we've been through so much in this country. So I don't think— I think stuff that happens in life, I think it always happens. I think it makes us better. And when I do face challenges in life, I have setbacks, I look at it as opportunity to get better, to learn lessons there. And you can't walk scared in life. You got to understand your landscape and you got to be able to deal with it. whatever the circumstances are. You can't live, like I said, in a completely risk-averse world. And that's the only thing I can say for it is your culture. You got to just teach people reality, teach them to be flexible, keep them informed. And you look at everything as an organizational problem. It's not an individual problem. I'm really big on the sum of the whole. You bring all the minds together, you keep people in the know, and you can do risk mitigation by encouraging people to work with you as a team. They can see the changes, they can see the dynamics, and they can help inform you so you can sort of stay ahead of the power curve or get to the left of the problems. There's always going to be problems, there's always going to be unknowns, there's always a fog of war that we learned in the military. Sure. And so I, I, in society, we have to look at, you know, the market in, in certain manners. So you put mitigators in through preparing people so we can all, you know, sort of pace the problem and adapt best we can. So I think what 9/11 did, I think it prepared us for the next setback or challenge we may face.

Yeah, there's some interesting reading I did on the way the Coast Guard prepared ahead of time for 9/11. They were one of the most prepared groups on that day because they had been involved in a certain amount of training and future casting scenario planning exercises. Because nobody's got a crystal ball, even though in— I don't know, maybe in 1993 or '94, the Trade Center was bombed, as we all know. And that was a

Yeah.

Major events. So there were signs that this could happen or something like it could happen. I don't believe personally— I know there's a book written with this title, Black Swan. I don't think there's any such thing because anything that happens was inevitable.

That's true.

Right?

Yes.

It happened. So clearly it could have happened. But the Coast Guard was very much thinking about, and not just thinking about it, but actually embodying what it would be like to be involved in one of those remote situations. And therefore they were able to grab Grapple ahead of time with what it would look like and then be prepared. So I couldn't agree with you anymore about, about the, those aspects of resiliency. In fact, Darwin, that's often quoted when people think about what resilience is or what, you know, strength is, they say it's the survival of the, of the fittest. That—

Yes.

Right. But it's actually a misquote in some respects because he says actually it's not the ones that are the strongest that survive, or even the ones are most intelligent in our species. It's the most adaptable. It's what you said.

Exactly.

And I couldn't agree more that the United States, of every nation on the planet that I know anything about, the United States has been incredibly adaptable.

Yes, that's true. Now, you— and we still go back— that's true. And, you know, and, and I just have the epiphany when you, uh, I'm gonna parallel Coast Guard into what you say with Thorianism and the most adaptable. Coast Guard was— they were They worked for DOD during war and they was prepared to work. They worked for DOT during peacetime, you know, Department of Transportation. They did law enforcement. They also prepared to flex into the DOD side. So that in itself gives them flexibility and adaptability. So I'm not surprised that they was the one that responded in kind. So it was that they make up. So they've been agile for some time and flexible and adaptable.

So interesting. Yeah, there's something, there's something there. There's something there for us that'll be good for But, and the other, you know, the other thing that you brought up that I think is really important, and it's not a tough love conversation, but I, I had this out with somebody. I literally had this out with some, with a guest on my show the other day because there's an element of self-responsibility that's embedded in this. Because I think that the, the tension here is on the organizational side. When you think about culture, to me, transparency is important. I get it that you can't let, gonna let everybody know know every detail of your plan and your strategy any more than high command would let enlisted men and women or others know, because it's just not what you would do. It wouldn't make sense, right? Yes. But there's a certain level of not sort of entrapping people or leading them with— to believe something that's not actually true. Like when organizations talk about this being a family, I get it. I love my family. I love my friends. And I consider, you know, to me, my family be every man, woman, and child on this Earth on some level from a spiritual side. But when you're working at a place and people talk about it being a family, and the next minute they're laying off their family as though they're strangers, there's a conflict there. There's an issue with that. So to me, you know, there's some level of honesty, transparency about what this relationship really does look like. And another level of if that is going to be a part of the cycle, and let's just say it is a natural part of the cycle, it's a predictable part of the cycle that when market forces require it, organizations to take care of stakeholders, which is a separate conversation, but assume that that's not going to change, that the stakeholders are going to be the sort of the tip of the spear, then there's going to be times when we contract, and contraction is going to mean reduction in force and stuff like that. So prepare those people not only for that eventuality, if you want to call it that, right, but also what kind of training can we provide them, what kind of support can we give them to be more adaptable because you're not an average guy. That, that's just the truth of it. Like, Anthony, you're not, you were not average in high school. You weren't average when you took apart that pistol, when you took apart the car. I mean, these are not things that a lot of people do. And so, and then when you joined the Navy, you had a, you have a, a certain self-determination, but also a high standard of self-responsibility. Because then when you feel that way, no matter what life throws at you, no matter what your employer throws at you. You know you're going to land on your feet because you're able to think on your feet. But a lot of people are not, honestly have not been trained that way. That's not their prior life experience. And so they're, they're kind of like relying on their employer to take care of them if they put in their 40, 50 hours or they do whatever they're like. That's their— where they're coming from. And I think we could do a better job of training people, especially those young folks and middle managers that don't seem to get a lot of the training dollars when it comes to how organizations allocate training development investment?

I really love talking to you. First of all, thank you for that vote of confidence there and those compliments. I really appreciate that. You just really bring some more insight into me here. We talk, first thing, trust. Okay, that's the term. That's the underpinning. We have to do a better job developing trust. As you mentioned, you can't give people everything. Some people don't, but you got to develop more trust. You got to be more transparent. I often read I read Fast Company articles, and it's just constantly drumbeat of people not communicating, not communicating, not communicating. So why they not communicating? Because they're not trusting. Now, I had a concept that always have worked for me in command. I had people from all over the world, as I talked earlier in the show. People had different— Navy are probably one of the most diverse services when it come to— we got guys that come in that don't do quite as well, they assfags. And then we got guys that's rocket scientists straight out of high school. So I always feel like you're only as strong as your weakest link, okay? And I strive on that. Now you got the Pareto rule that 20% of the people doing 80% of the work. My concept is team within teams. If I got someone that's really super smart, really gifted, then they got to help the people around them because we're the sum of the whole, okay? We got to make each other stronger. And the worst, I go to a classroom and teachers, oh, they want to show you their A students, right? That kid going to be an A student regardless whether or not you teach them anything because They just driven. How about those kids that come in here, start out maybe D's, failing, don't have confidence, not quite as gifted? Now, are your A students helping those kids become better? Are you working as a team? That's what I always try to promote. You know, you have— I always had the team within teams. I wanted everyone in our organization— we didn't have any PIs. I was convinced that there's no failures in the world. Some people just don't know how to win, how to succeed. So I always looked across everyone because it was the sum of the whole. And I think that's what we have to be able to give back and help each other, you know, to make each other stronger. So I just never bought into the 20% of the people doing 80% of the work, or the A-team to B-team concept. We're all one team, and we're going to balance out God-given skills and make everyone on the team better and appreciate each other. So that's what has always worked for me. Every time I had command, even before I became a commanding officer, I had a department that I oversaw. I had a division before that, and it's always been the same. That just has worked for me throughout. And the same thing with sports. Everyone has something to offer. You just got to build them. Everyone was not as fast on the football team. They had something to offer, otherwise they wouldn't put the uniform on.

Indeed. And from having worked, I, I've done some work for the Marines, for the Marine Corps, and which is a, an aspect of the Navy, Sprites.

Oh, absolutely. Yes. They like to say they the men department of the Navy. You don't have to challenge that though.

I'm not gonna get into that, but I will say this. The concept that came up, I remember when I was, I was working with, with a group of officers and we were talking about just not leaving anybody behind. Like the idea is, yes.

Right.

You don't, you don't leave a man behind. You don't leave a woman behind. So you don't leave anybody behind. And I think that's that concept. I am wearing, well, I'm wearing my Resilient shirt today, but I got another one that says, Got Your Back.

And that's super—

probably would've even been better for this conversation. But I think that's, so from a cultural standpoint, to me, that's a really important thing that people can feel that.

Yes.

That if they could say nothing else, they could say, I know where I go to work, where I put my service in, where I put my

Exactly. That's important. Yeah, we have to respect each other and, you know, look for the best part. So we got to get out of— get away from our own prisms and our own beliefs sometimes and just really try to understand each other regardless, you know, where people, you know, are from. So we have to do a better job of that. And I said, our time is connecting and appreciating each other.

When we learn— I don't want to say if, but Anthony, when we learn how to do that, I hope it's in our lifetimes, honestly. Honestly, because we as a species just haven't figured this one out yet.

Exactly.

And it is, it's, uh, it could break your heart every single day because it's— but you gotta, uh, I have a hopeful heart, as my wife would remind me. I gotta have a hopeful heart.

Well, we'll get there, you know, like, as long as you got people like yourself in the world, you know, just making a difference. I was talking with a coworker today and, uh, and he's been called to do a speech somewhere. He's a retired admiral. He's like, yeah, I really want to do this. I said, but you know, people like you need to be heard. There's a lot of people out there speaking and doing stuff. I And you, very even-keeled. I said, you do the country a disservice when you're not one of the people that's heard. I know it's not— you don't like to be front and center. You don't like a lot of attention, but you just have so much to offer. And once we get people like that, people like yourself that's more vocal, I think we'll make some progress. And sometimes we can only measure progress. Yeah.

Well, it is a good thing that it's so easy for everybody to be a broadcaster these days that it's possible to have a voice just by sticking a mic in your— in front of you and all that good stuff. But I gotta say, once again, I'll end as I began to say, Dr. Simmons, it's been a pleasure to speak with you today, and I appreciate your insights and your time. And I just want to— yeah, I want to wish you well on your continued journey. And I'll say this, is there one thing that you do on a ritual basis, daily basis, whatever it might be that keeps you resilient, how you define that word?

Yes, I do. I really— I read a devotion every day, and it just— I always think the Bible is the biggest leadership, the most powerful book on leadership. And almost like every day, whatever scripture I read, it applies to where I am that day. So, and I do that before I open my computer, before I do anything. I've been doing this about 3 years now, and it's probably one of the best things that I— rituals I ever

I have something, a similar, similar practice, and it's very personal. Obviously not everybody's listening to this is, it's gonna be a thing for them. And some people probably nodding their head going, yeah, it's my, it's like my secret weapon. You know, it's like when you have that start, for me, when I have that start to the day, and it is so personal that there's so many things that can set into motion, starting off with sort of getting back to the truth of things. Yeah. things. We all are, as human beings, I mean, we all have the same basic desires, whether it's peace, happiness, love, fulfillment, prosperity, all these things. It doesn't matter where in the world you are. It doesn't matter what religion you believe in or don't believe in or your politics. None of that on that level. None of that, to use your word earlier, you could be agnostic to all of it. It doesn't matter because it's all the same. We're all this We're all baked of that same stuff. And there's a, you know, the, to me, what I love about, about having a, a set practice, a ritual at the beginning of the day to be still, to sit in gratitude, maybe to read something. And I do just like you. I read something that often has a, has a reference point to something in the Bible because it is, while I'm not a Bible scholar and I'm not a particularly religious person, but I love just how, how potent it is, how, how tangible, how relevant, real it is even to this But you have to be able to connect dots. You have to be able to see through in language that is archaic, you know, that's old.

Yes, yes.

You know, but you got to be able to assimilate that and see what the value is today. And to me, it's a worthwhile practice. So I always appreciate somebody else is getting benefit out of it too.

Yeah, I attended Regent University for that reason, you know, because I wanted to get strong in that area. So at least I understand, you know, the exodus more so. So Yes, I feel a lot better.

Thanks.

Me too.

Me too. All right. Well, thank you again.

Hey, thanks, Adam, so much.

Okay. A pleasure.

Bye.

Well, I did thoroughly enjoy that conversation. And Dr. Simmons, Anthony, as he permitted me to call him. No, Anthony is, he's something special. 28 years in the Navy. He is, you could hear, is an incredibly insightful man and a humble man. I mean, I mean, he's really had some significant roles of leadership throughout his career and since retiring from the Navy as well. And yet he is just a very, just a, one of these quiet leaders, not quiet in the sort of shy sense, but again, in that sense of having humility, which to me is this mix of confidence without arrogance or confidence without being oppressive. from a standpoint of how you treat people, how you talk to them, your tone, and where your ego intersects with all of that. And so humility, I think, is vitally important. It's one of those qualities that is difficult to define at times, or— and it's also something I think the greatest leaders have worked on, have seen it as something that was worthy of their time and often is an area that needs development. I know in my own journey as a leader, that has been something I've been focused on as well. But not with total success. It's a work in progress. Today, Andy and I got—we got to really get into some really deep stuff when it comes to how organizations from a culture standpoint are doing today and where it is that we can create greater wellness within those organizations and what it takes to create champions for organizational wellness. We got to talk about trust and the value of importance of trust and where interestingly enough it might be that people are having trouble communicating and where there's communication challenges that's based on a lack of trust. That was one area that we talked about. We talked about cultural intelligence and how vital that is and, and where it is that in developing that agnostic belief system, meaning that you are not looking at, at the diversity of culture as a separation point, but rather as a commonality, as a common ground. So therefore you're agnostic to what those cultural differences might be. I think he used the Navy as a great example of that, traveling to, I think he said, 68 countries, but wanting their— the naval presence in those places to be integrative, not to be intrusive, not to be sort of an outsider, but more, if possible, woven into the culture of the place where they were stationed, where they were able to potentially even marry make a difference in some way, add value, provide service, be of some benefit to those other people. All that was just very, very telling. I love what he talked about team, that creating the team within the teams and how it is so important that, that the players, the A players in particular, are, are involved in helping others to succeed so that people that are less, that have less acumen for something potentially, maybe because it's a lack of training or a lack of experience, or maybe it's even some personal shortcomings. Yeah. Shortcomings that can can lead one person to be less successful or less of a performer than someone else. That that is the job of the team to bring everybody along, to look out for one another, to have each other's backs is the term that I that I expressed as as how we refer to it at Workwell at our company working with other companies that you want to create cultures that are got your back cultures versus watch your back cultures where people truly do know. As— like, they know almost nothing else as a certainty, but what they do know for sure is that the people that they work with are there to support them, that they're there to support others, that it's that got-your-back environment, similar to the way on the— in the military theater, people know that that's what keeps everybody safe, that that's the essence of how they can achieve something as one unit when they're not worried about whether somebody behind them is actually looking to see them succeed because they know that no one succeeds without everyone succeeding. No one gets left out or left behind. And I think that, that where we can incorporate that to create this greater performance and a culture where people can truly show up as they're the best they can be without fear and insecurity, that that's ultimately what we're after. And again, not to promise what is not possible. So organizations are gonna go through changes. There's gonna be structural changes. There's gonna be restructures based on market conditions. All of that is evident. All of that is true. But we need to be truthful with people so that they have to understand from the, at whatever stage they're at, that that's potentially the case. It's a potentiality. It's an event. And for some, it's an eventuality. But if we train, if we give people our true care, if we are helping them, supporting them to be to rise to the best level that they're capable of rising to, then they can adapt. They can be adaptable both within the organization if their journey includes staying there, or if their journey means being somewhere else. They'll be not only able to survive, but they'll actually be able to thrive truly because they've got— they've developed this resiliency that comes from learning how to adapt. And those are not necessarily things that we are trained or taught in school or taught by our parents or others as we are growing up. So these are skills that organizations can imbue and impart and train along the way. And it shouldn't be, in my personal opinion, and this is the caveat here, is this is my personal opinion, that these are not, shouldn't be left only the upper reaches of leadership, that only senior-level leaders get access to these types of training, but rather that we, we invest, that we invest the time, the energy, the resources, money to allow for training to occur earlier on in the career path so that people do learn at a minimum some of these essential skills that will only hold them in good stead again if their career continues within that vein or whether it leads elsewhere for whatever reason. So again, love the conversation. Dr. Simmons really, I think, laid out some structures for us talking about self-awareness and what the importance of that is, as well as in overcoming our blind spots and in creating organizations that, again, to the point I've just made, are coaching organizations where we're, we are providing people with feedback on a consistent basis so that they can know what those blind spots are and we can help them to overcome them. So just again, so appreciate your tuning in and that this is hopefully something valuable for you. If it is, if this episode was valuable. I would love it if you'd share it with someone else. That's always the greatest sort of compliment you could give is to, when you appreciate something that you share it with someone else. Maybe it's an insight, maybe it's an idea that you'll share as well. And of course, when you do share it, then the powers that be, you know, the algorithm that controls so much of what content shows up for us, each of us in our various platforms that we are consuming content from, That this podcast will show up in more places because you've either shared it with somebody else or you've actually taken a moment to rate it, to give it that 4 or 5-star rating. Hopefully you'd think it was worth the 5 stars, but that takes time for you to do. And if you do it, if you choose to do it, we so appreciate it. That is how our community has grown significantly. That's how we are able to reach more people with this message. And I thank you in advance for taking the time out of your very, very important work to do that for us. Lastly, something that highly recommend for you and for members of your team. If you're not, if you'd like to get a snapshot in this moment in time how resilient you are mentally, emotionally, physically, spiritually speaking, this is act— you have access to this. It's free, and the insights are pretty remarkable in so many respects. But we've been able through our research to really pinpoint several things on the emotional intelligence side as well as in the area of spiritual resilience that come up consistently through our data. If you wanna get access to our Resilient Leader Assessment, just go to rankmyresilience.com, rankmyresilience.com. And no questions, no strings attached. You get 16 questions, and you'll get a confidential report that is just for you. And you'll get some resources that are based on what your report has found. And those will be valuable for yourself and for those around you, as well as potentially anybody that you might share it with. So, again, thank you so much for being a part of our community. Thank you for tuning into this show. And I look forward And I look forward to you getting access to more and more in the future. Again, thank you and ciao for now.

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