Execution Excellence: Why Relentless Adaptability Beats Perfect Strategy

Welcome to another edition of Thought Leaders Live, where we talk with thought leaders in business, life, and all points in between. Today, we're gonna definitely talk business with Adam Spector, CEO of Chore. Adam, thanks so much for joining us today.

Craig, thank you for having me.

Yeah, great. We're going to dive into the topic Execution Excellence: Why Relentless Adaptability Beats Perfect Strategy. And we're going to talk about why adaptability has become the competitive advantage. And Adam sure does know a lot about it. He's a 4-time founder, active angel investor, and founder and CEO of Chor. It's a fractional operations partner that has eliminated admin work for more than 500 startups. So that's a brief intro there, Adam, but why don't you give us a little bit more background on yourself and your personal story as to how you got to where you are today?

Yeah, I mean, so as you mentioned, I'm the CEO and founder of Chore. In a sense, we do the chores, right? Like there's a lot of things in life that we do that people have to do that they view as chore. For most people, that might be doing their laundry or vacuuming their floors or something. In the business world, things that are chores are things like payroll needs to run, or I need to update my books. These are things that are not critical to your business. They're not your product. They're not your sales. However, you need to do them or else your business will fall apart. The same way, like, I don't think I'd be a very good person in the world if I never washed my clothes, I never took— if I was wearing dirty clothes all the time, at some point, my life would probably fall apart, or I'd be ostracized from normal society. It's the same thing with operations work for a business. Those are chores. In Chore, we exist to go do those chores for our customers. So we are a fractional HR company, fractional finance company, fractional compliance company to do all this work so you don't have to do it yourself as a founder, and you can get back to doing what you care about. The most. That's Tor. My history, though, this is my 4th company. I did all the normal schooling things, college, went to grad school, got a JD and MBA. And then in 2010, I moved out to San Francisco. I'd always wanted to be in tech. I was told by a quasi-mentor of mine who was in DC, he said, hey, look, if you want to you think you're one of the best, and of course, I had an ego. I think that's gone away a little bit as I've gotten older, but I had an ego. It's like, look, if you want to be compared to the best and you want to be in politics, you should stay in DC. The best people in politics all flock to DC to do national politics. If you want to be in finance, you go to New York. That's where the best people in finance go, is to New York City. If you want to be in media, go to LA. That's where the best people in media go. And if you want to be in tech, you got to go to SF. And so I was like, well, that's where I need to go. That's where I need to be. And so 2010, moved out here, worked for a startup. The startup got acquired. I was like, heck yeah, welcome to Silicon Valley. This is awesome. I got it. I got a relatively small check. I had a small percentage of that company, but it's still like, wow, this is what it's about. I started my first company with some people I met from that other company, which is very much Silicon Valley story. You meet some great engineers, you band together, you start a new company. Then it went from there onwards, and then I was able to start doing early-stage investing as well. I've done 200+ early-stage angel investments, founded 4 companies, and now I've been in San Francisco for that whole time, seeing the ups and downs, married with 2 kids, the traditional story in all those ways, I suppose. Yeah, I followed my dream of being out here and I'm not Elon Musk level of success, but I've done all right,

man. All that in 16 years—that's incredible.

Thank you.

Yeah, love the town. My wife and I honeymooned out there, and I love San Fran. Romantic town. We caught it on a couple sunny days, which was quite nice when we were out there. But it's a great city, and obviously love the wine region as well.

It is. Don't and don't listen to what people San Francisco, especially during COVID got really bashed in the the. media and things because of all the crazy things that were happening. There were some crazy things happening here, but San Francisco is truly an amazing place. Oh yeah. Um, with so many great things happening. It has a lot of issues, but so does every city. And frankly, we have many fewer than most cities. Like we have actually very low, like significant, like real, like physical crime. We do have some property crime, but nothing too crazy. Um, every neighborhood is so different. The food is amazing. I think the weather's great. Depends where you are in the city. You can be in parts of the city where it's fog. I'm looking out my window, I can see half of the city's in fog. I happen to live in a part of the city where it's like, Pretty much clear blue skies above me right now. Um, but yeah, everything about San Francisco, mostly a lot of pros. There's always things we can do to improve, but, um, it's a pretty unique place.

Well, let's move on from, um, the city by the bay and dive into the topic at hand. And I think, um, one of the big things is all about adaptability. And, and you'd say adaptability Kind of beats perfect strategy. Let's, let's talk a little bit about that. Why don't you unpack that for me?

Yes. Look, I think a lot of people like to come up with their annual plans. It's okay, we're going to spend December coming up with our plan for the new year, and that's our goal, and we're going to follow this to a T. The simple fact is, like, things change too fast. They probably always have, but they certainly are in the age of AI where too much is changing. You're getting new information on a regular basis, so you need to adapt and change with that. If you're unwilling or unable to as an organization, I'm very sure you will fail and you will fall flat on your face. An example, since I mentioned Elon Musk briefly, one thing that's great about Tesla and very impressive as a car company, they don't really have model years. Most car companies, they have a model year, it's planned in advance, and when it launches, it's done. If you buy a Tesla Model Y today, it might look the same pretty much as the one that's been out for the past 2 years, but there's thousands of small little changes that have gone on underneath the hood that make it actually a better car than it was. And it's the continuous adaptation and updates and iterations that make Teslas probably, I don't know, arguably Model Y for me, the best overall car for the large majority of people in the world because it's a fantastic car. Forget Elon Musk's politics for a second, but like the car is fantastic. And it's all those small little changes. And like everyone should strive as a business person to build a company that has that same level of continuous iteration, continuous small updates to get better and better, better. But that also means you have to be flexible as an organization. So you have to be willing to say, hey, look, we're going to make changes and we have to be okay with that. And new information might push us in a new direction. And not every organization can handle that level of change, but if you can't handle change in today's world, you will fail.

Right. A wise man once told me, he's like, yeah, so I've got— he's a startup. He's like, I've got half of my budget for year 1, and then I'm saving the second half for the end of the year because I know I'm going to completely change everything. But my question to you, Adam, is how do you reconcile that adaptability with the vision, your vision or your model that you've come to market with?

So the vision— so for Chor, we've been around almost 6 years in different versions. Our kind of most current iteration of Chor has been around about 4 and a half. That vision has not changed. Our vision is that we believe every single entrepreneur in the world deserves to have world-class operations so they can do what they do best. The world is a better place with more entrepreneurs, and the data very clearly shows that the large majority of entrepreneurs fail not because they are bad at their core thing they'd love to do. They fail because they don't know how to do all the other random things around like, how do I do HR or finance or compliance? They don't know how to do that, and that's actually why they fail, not because their actual product is terrible. Actually, a good example of this, there's a barbecue restaurant in the Bay Area that I was just reading about. It's called, I think, Horn Barbecue. Actually, I know it's called Horn Barbecue. They had a bunch of other different outposts and different things. It was great. It blew up, got a huge amount of national news, all this other stuff. They ended up opening 4 or 5 different restaurants, and they were on a really clear path to success. Last week, I read an article about all of them have shut down. They all shut down. Because the founder, I assume, I don't know the details, I think is really bad when it comes to the actual running the business part. He was great at barbecue and great at even probably some of the marketing and talking to people because he was so passionate about barbecue. But he was CEO. So I'm sure people were coming to him like, how should we hire? Should we sign this lease? Should we deal with this issue? And he probably had no idea what he was doing.

Yeah.

Until the company failed. And that is such a sad thing for the people who loved his barbecue, but for his employees and everyone involved. And so that is why you should delegate and outsource this to chore and things like it. But that's sort of where it goes. I can talk more about adaptability again, but that kind of got on a tangent there.

Yeah, no, I mean, I think it all ties in. I think you almost kind of have to adapt as the business owner to just what you love and what you focus on. Um, and what I mean by that is maybe that the, the owner of Horn loved the restaurant business. He loved coming up with new recipes, or he loved serving people, but he got so busy he got almost forced into growth. I mean, I probably— I don't know. I wonder what his mindset was going into this. And I, I wonder what you think. Like, when people start up, an entrepreneur starts a business, Is it with the mindset like, I love doing this business, I just love the work? Then it's a lifestyle business. But to truly grow, you have to put that adaptability hat on and then figure out how to adapt into those new roles. You're going to keep changing as an owner as you move forward.

And yeah, I know, obviously I agree. I think most people don't understand that when they start a business. the necessity of adaptability. But once again, I think you can be fairly focused as a founder if you find the right partner to go do the things you don't like to do. Arguably, that is actually the best thing, is to be relentless about delegation and say, you know what? I know my zone of strength and zone of genius. I know what that is, and I'm therefore going to hand off all the other things, and I'll only dive into other things If it absolutely requires me to get it done or push it forward. So even for Tor as an example, we are updating our recruiting for how we recruit people on our team. It hasn't gone well. A bunch of things sort of broke over the past few months. It hasn't been the way we wanted it to. So I've jumped back into that. I'm not the best person to run that long-term, but having me involved in putting the pressure on the team to say, hey, we need to focus on this and get it right. is critical, but I recognize like I'm not the right person. If I have to take it on and run it long-term, it will fail, or I will be distracted in other ways, in other parts of the business that I'm better at. Or it's only things that like I can do, like only I can be on these podcasts, like as your guest, Greg, and with other people. I can't delegate that.

Yeah.

Now I could just say, I'm not going to do that because it's so important for me to fix recruiting, but that's probably a bad trade-off. Because then we don't do good marketing and we can't grow. So I need to say, what are the things that only I can do and delegate everything else?

Well, that's, that's interesting that you dove back into that. And I don't know if recruiting is your area of expertise, but I've found as business owner, it— I recall one thing a guy once said to me is, I don't outsource anything until I'm kind of an expert at it.

No. I would disagree with that person strongly. I think it is nearly impossible to become an expert at everything. And even if you can become an expert at everything, that by definition means you are putting your focus in other places that may not be that relevant to you. So why do I need to become an expert? Let's pretend there's a lawsuit that Chorus— and thankfully, there's not. But let's pretend there is. Do I need to become an expert at the law to deal with that? I could. And look, if the lawsuit is existential and it's going to put us out of business, maybe I should become an expert because that is the most existential crisis for us. But in most cases, like, I don't need to be the expert there. I hire a lawyer to be the expert and to handle it. Um,

so, so give me— so let's use the recruiting as an example. If you're not a recruiting expert, To what degree are you getting involved and how do you approach it?

Yeah. So for us, a few different ways. One, we updated our process back in February. So, and that was my push. I was like, hey, I think we can do better because here's some ideas that I have. And I've talked to lots of people, so I get lots of ideas. And I try to be careful as a founder not to also do something that a lot of founders mess up and do, which is called SOS, shiny object syndrome. They talk to someone, it's a shiny object, and they wanna go run off in that direction like a little white mouse. I try not to do that. But when I talk to people and there's like ideas like, hey, this could be something we could implement in a good way, I try to talk to my team and the person who is owning that and saying, hey, can we update our process? Can we do this better? And are we sure we're doing a good job in this process? And I try to ask that of all of our teams. Like, just because we've been doing something a certain way, to go back to the point of kind of iterations and updating, just because we've been doing it one way for the past 6 months does not mean that, that was the best way. Doesn't mean we can't improve. So I constantly try to ask my team, hey, are we upleveling ourselves? Can we do better in this next area? And sometimes I'll have ideas about what those things should be, and the people who own that can say no. Um, in this case, with recruiting, they said, hey, like, that's a good idea. Like, I think we can put a lot of new things in place to improve our recruiting. So we did. Um, I didn't become an expert on it. I don't know all the changes they made. I just said, like, here's some of the ideas. But it didn't make sense. Let's do that. They did. But what I failed to do and what they sort of failed to do, and actually had a good retro with this person this week, actually on this topic, is they didn't make it clear who was owning things going forward. So this person made the updates to the recruiting process, but didn't align everybody on all the key pieces. And so everyone was working in a slightly different way. And that was where the problem became. That was a process issue. I'm still not an expert. So I've jumped into it this week. I'm still not an expert on our whole process, but because I'm the CEO, I can say, hey guys, like we're going to sit down and have a meeting. Let's get everyone on the same page. I want to understand what we're doing here. Let's make some updates. We made, we identified this like Monday afternoon. I told my sort of senior leader, I was like, I want to take this over and fix it. And so she didn't have to own it. She also didn't have time on her plate. It's like, I'll take this on. Tuesday, I reviewed it in depth with the team. I made a lot of notes to the team, actually Monday night, made a lot of notes to the team. Tuesday, they reviewed it. Wednesday, I had a whole conversation with the team lead who was overseeing a lot of these changes. She presented a bunch of information that she had on it. Wednesday afternoon, we did a group call with everybody. We made a bunch of decisions. This morning, everything's been shipped and all the updates have been changed. So yeah, that's 4 days. I almost wish it went faster, but like, that's pretty good. And we've shipped all those changes and that's out and running. And yes, it's gonna take probably 30 days to see if that change helps, but like, we moved quickly once we identified the problem. I'm still not the expert. I'm still not the one fully owning it, but for a while I'm gonna be the one saying, hey, I'm expecting you to send me updates every week on the process. What do our numbers look like? How is it going?

So tell me, Adam, how would I use Chore to kind of fill that gap if I'm— want— I, you know, I don't want to get into the back office, I don't want to do the HR. How does that work? I mean, do you have a real live person that I'm talking to? Are you all AI-driven? Give me a— give me the, the working model.

Absolutely. Um, we're, we're not fully AI-driven, and I don't think we will be for many, many years. I mean, we're certainly trying, right? Our job— our goal is to be Our goal in the end is to get great outcomes for our clients. That is what clients care about. They don't care how it's done. They want great outcomes, right? The same way you care about having healthy food in your grocery store. You don't care how the grocery store gets it there. If they have to fly it in or they truck it in or they grow it on their roof, you probably don't care.

Right.

You just want it to be good food. It's the same with the operations work we do. You just want great outcomes. Now, we are trying to make sure we ensure great outcomes by using AI. We're trying to ensure that we can do it for a low price to make sure that the rest of the money for our customers can go back to building their businesses. But that also means we still very much include people because there are so many edge cases in human resources work, in compliance work, in finance work. You need people who are really good at this to do it. The way we do it is we assign a fractional, essentially fractional chief of staff, fractional head of HR to literally run All of HR, run compliance for you, so you as a founder can get back to doing what you need to do. Now, as a founder, just like an example with that example with recruiting, you should get reports from your HR team. What are the key things we're working on right now? What are the key outcomes? What are blockers? You should be there to unblock them, but you should not be the one being the expert at how to run the payroll system. Like, those systems are just— are pretty complex. And annoying. As a founder, if you're spending time trying to understand those, you are, by definition, you are failing. You are taking time away from building your product and getting customers to understanding a product that is irrelevant to your business. All you need to know is, is my team getting paid on time in a compliant way? If the answer is yes, go back to doing your real job.

So how does it work if I'm working with a fractional Chief of staff. Um, I'm sorry, what was the term? The title?

We call them a chief chore officer, but chief of staff works, or fractional HR.

Fractional HR. I'm working with my fractional HR. Do you have a monthly allocation? What happens when the inevitable crisis occurs? Tell me about how this operates and plays out.

Yeah, we have a flat monthly fee. That flat monthly fee is based on essentially the number of employees that you have at the company. And sort of your monthly expenses. It's sort of a combination of those 2. That has meant we're pretty— we've done it for, you know, 500+ companies. We have a pretty good idea of what that should cover. And look, it's going to fluctuate each month. Some months it might not be crazy busy, and then other months we might go way past what we're expecting to do. But our view is it all evens out in the end.

Yeah.

And what you're paying for is that we're here to take care of those things for you. If you're only hiring us or a fractional team, the moment you have a crisis, it's probably too late. We actually have a customer right now who hired us and they have a crisis. They are getting essentially sued by the California EDD, which is a whole big thing. They misclassified their employees, all this other stuff. We were like, look, we can try to help with some of the data, but you need to get lawyers involved. This is a crisis situation. You need your lawyers doing this work. This should have been solved 24 months ago.

Yeah.

But like, you didn't have us then and you were probably being too cheap. And you— and guess what? That founder didn't know what he was doing, most likely. So yeah, get someone involved to go hand it off and you're— and you should be good to go.

Now, is your background personally in HR? No. Do you have any experience there? You just saw a need for an organization and with all the startups you've dealt with?

Correct. It was, it was really like For me, it was just like a lot of founders, it was a personal pain.

Yeah.

I founded— before the first iteration of Tor started, I founded 2 other companies, and I had been a pretty active angel investor. In every one of the companies I founded, I ended up becoming like, I'm hopefully world-class at the thing we were founding. Then I was the one also becoming the one who had to set up all the payroll, and run all payroll, and figure out finance, and manage the lawyers, and all these things. I'm like, wait a second, why am I not spending the time doing the stuff I love doing that I'm great at? Yeah. Luckily, I ended up becoming like— I did so much of it, I was like, oh, this is really cool, I like it. This is like pretty interesting work, number one. Um, and two, this is a universal problem and need. So why don't I try to create a problem that can solve it for every entrepreneur? Because once again, the more entrepreneurs in the world that can be a success, the better the world is.

Yeah, I like it. Let's pivot a little bit here back to AI. And one of the bullet points we had in the show was how to use it as a practical tool to improve your execution, eliminate busywork, accelerate growth. Tell me about how you use AI and how you view a company should use it.

Yeah, so I think a company nowadays should be using AI essentially every problem that comes up. should initially be a question they ask to AI. You almost need to make it your default to say, can I ask AI to help me solve this? And so for us, as an example, for me, when I had a situation probably a month ago where a teammate of mine was complaining about she didn't have all the information she wanted and she didn't really know how to get it for the situation. She's pretty good with AI. I was like, oh, I think we can actually solve that. I think that is solvable. And after I got off the call with her, I said, you know, I'm gonna take my own time, try to spend like an hour, see if I can build something. It didn't even take me that long. It was probably 30 minutes. I built a V1 of the product she wanted. And I said, is this about right? Is this what you're looking for? She said, oh my God, that's exactly it. And so that was the first solution was to say, hey, we can get this going for you and build this out. And I try to do that on a regular basis for almost everything. So for the recruiting stuff, I've run that through AI multiple different times and spent some time with it instead of us just guessing, is this correct? Are these the right decisions? Running it through AI. My teammate who did the analysis that I just mentioned yesterday, her and I went through this whole analysis of all of the data. We looked at that yesterday. We went through all that. That was all done with AI. She just did another analysis today about one of the debates we're having is sort of the type of people we hire and do they need a certain amount of experience? on things. Like, do we need them to have X experience or Y experience to be really good at the job? It's funny because half my team, and this actually was part of the big issue for our recruiting process, a lot of people who were part of the recruiting process said, yes, we need to have people who have this experience, otherwise we cannot hire them to Chor. And I was like, I don't think that's correct. And my memory, which could be very fallible, right? My memory was like, I don't think the data, I don't, if I recall the inter— 'cause I interview everyone still, It's like if I remember everyone's resume, most people don't have these sorts of experiences. So I don't think that's actually a true statement. And then my teammate did the analysis using AI, and it came out literally, it was like, Adam is correct, which I was flattered by. But it was basically like the data doesn't show that we need this experience at all. In fact, some of the people who are most successful at Chor don't have these experiences. Hmm. And so that's a dramatic— like the data specifically shows that if we didn't have AI doing that analysis would be really difficult. And then we'd just be going on hunches. And yeah, maybe my hunch in this case was correct, but I could easily be wrong in the future, and I'd rather base my decision on data, not on my hunch. And it's good to use data, and AI makes you able to analyze the data so much easier.

Yeah, I think it's fantastic. I use it as a tutor on some things to help me learn things. I use it to analyze data like you just mentioned. I use it as a gap gap analysis when I produce some content, for example, and I'd say, where am I missing the boat? I try not to have it come up with the original ideas. I mean, I definitely use it to brainstorm and come up with things, but I feel like it's— I always say I do a good job on my own, AI does a good job on its own, but me and AI together, that's 1+ 1= 3. So that's kind of my view. Totally.

And it can be so much faster. I mean, another small example that people should all be doing, every call I do, I record it. I record it. I have a recorder. I assume everyone's using a recorder at this point for it with on their calls. AI automatically generates a follow-up email for me after every single call. It reads the transcript, drafts the email. I don't let it send it. I still review it and make edits.

Sure.

But it's sitting in my inbox, like basically almost the moment the call's over, I have a full draft of an email. That's pretty good.

That's cool. Let's, let's cover one more area. We've got about 5 more minutes, but tracking metrics. You mentioned metrics before. What do you think are some of the key, how people should track the key metrics and the right metrics. Are there certain ones that you really focus on or do you just have a general overall philosophy?

Well, look, every company's business, so every company is different. And the metrics they measure all differ by a bit. However, I tend to believe most businesses should be focused on revenue and profits. We live in a capitalist society, therefore you need to be focused on, am I making revenue? And am I profitable? If you are not on those 2 metrics, you are in real trouble. Pretty simple. So generally speaking, I think most companies should be focused on those 2 things. And then you can start to tweak those things, right? Do I reduce my profits, but reinvest more money in marketing to increase my revenue because I want to grow? Or do I want to have— just spend less money on marketing and less money in other places and just have more profits? Those are totally legitimate decisions that you can make as a founder and leader. And so it's those sort of metrics that we look at a lot. And then you just start tweaking all the things below that. So in our case, we say, hey, how do we make our team more efficient? Who are the right people to be running every account? How many people do we need on every account? Can we build new tools to make them more efficient so they can handle more accounts while still achieving fantastic outcomes for our customers? Those are the sorts of questions you should be asking as a founder for your own business. And essentially, It's a continuous improvement loop of iteration and improvement to achieve the end goals you care about, which is probably revenue and/or profit.

I love the continuous improvement, but Adam, tell me a little bit, can Chore help with some of those metrics and what type of metrics does Chore help you produce?

Yeah, I mean, in a sense we can. And what I mean by that is, once again, like the founder, if you're a small business, The founder's time is so precious. I mean, even if you're not a small business, the founder's time and CEO's time is precious.

Right.

You need to be spending all that time on the things only you can do. To go back to the point we've been making a bunch here, you need to spend time on doing stuff that only you as a founder or CEO can get done. So you need to make a decision. Do I want to hand off HR or finance or other things to either someone internally, which I wouldn't by the way, recommend, or a third party like Chore to go do it for me. And then when you hand it off, what is the ROI on you having that extra time? So for an average small business, an average small business founder is going to spend at least 10 hours a month on like back office work, chores. Yeah. Right? That's 10 hours a month. That's a lot. That's like a lot of time, right? That's what, almost like 1,200 hours a year, right? At least. Am I doing my math right? Might be, might be getting it wrong, but like doing, doing, um, uh, uh, sorry, 120 hours. Um, uh, a huge amount of hours per year, right, that you're doing. Um, do you want to reinvest that time where it's most important and most impactful for you to get this stuff done? And that's the question you have to ask. And then find someone you can trust to go do the work, like Chor. You don't have to— the benefit is like anyone listening to this, you probably hired, recruited, hired, trained, and managed people before. I don't think anyone should hire— like have fewer people you hire.

Mm-hmm.

Hire fewer people, train fewer people, manage fewer people. All of that is just overhead for you. So if you can only hire people who are doing the core business that you do, right? Just hire the people who are great at the key things. Like If your product is baking pies, right? So The E-Myth Revisited, everyone should read that book because it's basically about like how companies fail because they don't get operations right. Um, but it talks about a pie maker and you should only hire people who are great at baking pies and you want to just spend all of your time baking pies. Everything else you should delegate and outsource. Like, are you the world's best person to manage an HR manager? Are you the world's best person to find a location for your pie shop? And sign a lease? Probably not to any of those things. So don't be pennywise and pound foolish by trying to save a little bit of money and doing it yourself. Hand it to experts, let them do what they do best so you can go reinvest that time into things that you do best.

So Adam, I'm not sure how old your kids are, but if they watch this podcast, are you a little worried that they'll be looking at their allowance and saying, coming back to you with a counterproposal, you know, Dad, how much is your free time worth to you? Can I bump this up and you get a good ROI still by outsourcing to me?

I would be so proud if they come to me and say that. I would be ecstatic and proud of them if they ever came to me with that negotiation.

Well, um, I, uh, I hope you, you share this this video with them and, uh, you know, maybe that'll spark something. But, um, if we're at the top of the hour, if somebody wants to work with Chore, uh, work with you and outsource their HR, how do they get ahold of you?

Yeah. Um, pretty easy. Uh, you can find us a ton about what we do at hirechore.com. H-I-R-E Chore, C-H-O-R-E. So hirechore.com. Um, a ton of information. You can find me on LinkedIn. I'm pretty active on LinkedIn as well. And get in touch. In the end, as I mentioned, like, I— what keeps me going every day is making sure every entrepreneur can be a success. So if you have questions, if there's things I can help with, reach out. I'd love to have a quick chat.

And let me just also plug Adam's LinkedIn page and follow him. He posts really in-depth posts, not only just on problems, but he offers really good solutions. And wide range of stuff. I mean, every time I come in, you seem like you're coming up with some different issue. And I— you had the issue today, I think it was about the, the how are you a full-time employee or an employee versus a contractor. But I'm sure a lot of this stuff I can tell is things that have happened to you, or have happened to your businesses, and/or your clients. So it's, it's real-world stuff with real-world solutions. So definitely follow Adam on LinkedIn. But I want to thank you for joining me today on Thought Leaders Live.

Thank you, Greg. It was a pleasure being here. Great chatting with you.

Yeah. And to everyone else, thanks for joining us on yet another edition of Thought Leaders Live.