How to Make an "Unsexy" Product Irresistible

I don't think there's anybody that has had a bigger impact in the field of direct response than Dan Kennedy. The legend of Dan Kennedy should be ignored at your own peril. They're not really lessons, they're kind of laws that you live by. Dan opened my eyes to what small business marketing looks like. Dan teaches strategic direct response that is timeless.

His ripple effect touches people who don't even know his name.

The world as we know it was changed because Dan Kennedy became obsessed with marketing.

Welcome to the Magnetic Marketing Podcast with your host, Dan Kennedy.

Diamond members, if you're on the Diamond Call of the Month, you're in the right place. If you're hearing it a month delayed on CD, we still of course welcome you. It is Valentine's Day month. In fact, yesterday was the forced gifting, forced go out to dinner Extortion holiday, as I like to think of it. And so we're going to be talking about romancing the stone, how you take what is less than sexy and exciting and make it so. I have two guests. First, who we'll get to in just a minute or two, is Dave Scranton, and I'll tell you about Dave. Then about midway through our time, Dave will be exiting us and Sally Hogshead, who many of you probably know, author of the books Fascinate and How the World Sees You, the world's leading expert on fascination, will be stepping in. So with me first today, Dave Scranton. I'm working on a couple of projects with Dave. Dave is a very interesting guy. Uh, he either owns or has owned a fishing lure company, a marina. Um, appears to be, uh, as I do with my racehorses, desperately trying to figure out to make these kinds of things tax deductible or tax deductible dependents by using them in business. But his main business is in the world of money. Dave has a financial advisory practice of his own, thriving and very successful in two cities. He has a registered investment advisory company. He has his own television show on Newsmax. So Dave has his own TV show. He's a best-selling author, and he has a company, Advisors Academy. Which works with other select advisors all across the country. So Dave is in the money business on the retail side with consumers, mom and pop, kettle, and their retirement savings, and on the wholesale side with financial advisors. And starting with retail, my contention is other than Warren Buffett and a small select few of us, very few people get out of bed in the morning all excited about hearing about, learning about, finding out more about how money works, how personal finance works, particularly how they should manage their retirement savings, the pension they don't have, how to how not to run out of money before they run out of life, etc., etc. It's not an inherently sexy topic. I doubt there are very many people binge-watching all of the Newsmax shows that Dave has recorded. There's certainly more people binge-watching Orange Is the New Black than binge-watching anything having to do with personal finance. And so I thought it would be a good topic, a good example to use for Romancing the Stone. And so, Dave, the pregnant question for you, retail side first, is how you take what consumers for the most part would rather not think about or deal with and certainly do not find inherently exciting and sexy and how you rope them in and make them pay attention and get them excited in this topic.

Well, first of all, I've always believed that you're always better off if you zig when everyone else zags and to be a contrarian. You know, whether it's a gift that I've had and maybe didn't realize until recently or whether I just got lucky and stumbled onto some things, but even going back to the middle of my college career, it's kind kind of interesting. I was pre-med my first 2 years in the '80s, and I heard how, I saw how managed care, as I affectionately refer to it as mangled care, was starting to come out. And I looked at it and I said, "Medicine's being commoditized. I don't want to do this." And I never went to medical school. I switched, and of course now I'm very grateful for that. In the financial services industry, the biggest way that it got commoditized was through the use of mutual funds and outside managed investments. You know, you get advisors that charge a management fee to put a client's money in mutual funds that have an additional fee. Well, if you just think about that for a minute, the additional fee that's embedded in a mutual fund, that is the fee that is really earned because that fund manager is rolling up his or her sleeves. He and his team are out there interviewing chief financial officers of publicly traded companies, deciding what stocks and bonds to buy and sell. They're doing all the work. And they might be charging an average of a 1% fee. The financial advisor is doing virtually nothing. In fact, picking a mutual fund for a financial advisor is literally as difficult as taking a mutual fund application and putting a checkmark inside of a box. That's all the work it takes for that financial advisor. Yet in most cases, that financial advisor is then charging you another 1% fee, but he's doing only a fraction of the work. So I've always likened that to, it's almost as if you needed to have your car fixed, and instead of going directly to the mechanic whom you had to pay, you paid an independent person a fee to go out and find you the mechanic whom you then had to pay a second fee to, to repair your car. Nobody ever does this, but that's essentially what the financial world has turned into. So now everybody's always, now people are worried about these robo-advisors and how it gets commoditized. Gets commoditized, uh, if you're managing money in that way. It was only a matter of time before it became commoditized. What I've done is—

to be fair, it's not only being commoditized, it's essentially now being Amazoned because— yeah, so, so there's really, there's really two levels of, of, of true commoditization happening.

Very true. Very true. And you see, what I've done is I've chosen an area that almost can't be commoditized. And that area is really fixed income. It's bonds. The world, as I call it, of bonds and bond-like instruments. Because it's really simple. When I talk to a prospective client, even let's say an avid do-it-yourselfer, you know, Dan, that engineer. That engineer who thinks he can fix everything. I mean, by golly, he thinks he can Google it and he could do a vasectomy on himself. It's not rocket science. Hey, I'm an engineer. I can fix anything, right? Well, the reality is that even that engineer, when you get people to understand when they're approaching retirement or who are retired, that total return has two components: income and growth. And you know, everyone knows this, but most people today that are part of the baby boom generation, for example, you know, they got serious about their investments in the '80s and '90s, the best stock market in US history. So their paradigms about investing became skewed and really became focused on growth because of their initial successes. Many of those successes are things for which they took too much personal credit for, but still nonetheless successes coming in during a bull market. So that became their paradigm. So when you talk about total return equaling income plus growth, they've forgotten about the income part. They think it's all about growth. So when we reeducate them, about the income side. And we let them know that, gosh, the total stock market since the turn of the century, i.e., over 18 years, has only averaged a little bit over 5% a year from the income and the growth column combined. And then we show them that they can get 5% or so just on the income side by focusing on this universe of bonds and bond-like instruments. At that point, even the most Avid do-it-yourselfer, dyed-in-the-wool type engineer is going to look at this and say, okay, Dave just burst my bubble. Everything that is stock market based now, he's right, I need to move some money out of that. I need to start transitioning, investing for income instead of growth. And all my experience is in growth, none of it's in income. So they realize that You know, they shouldn't be trying at home if this is their life savings.

Somebody—

but then, go ahead.

I want to interrupt just a second, and I want to broaden this for everybody, because in the context of the whack on the side of the head to get people's attention for something that they would ordinarily not find all that interesting, regardless of what that is He has just identified two real important things to do. One is you have to burst their bubble. Whatever their comfort and complacency is about the diet they eat, the investments they make, the business they own, the school they have their kids in, or the college they're contemplating sending their kids to, whatever it is. You have to burst their bubble about, about what they believe to be true about that. Second thing that he did is then giving them a short, digestible piece of new-to-them information. It's not new information, but it's new to them. They either don't know it or they haven't thought about it in a long time. And about their retirement income, Dave did that with— your stock market experience may be skewed. The working average is 5 points a year with massive risk, and over here you could do 5 points a year with virtually no risk, and no stockbroker is going to tell you that. That piece of information that is new to this person combined with bursting their bubble can get them to pay attention to just about anything that they have been intellectually, emotionally, or financially invested in. So this applies very broadly. It applies to just about every category of business.. And it is two things that a lot of marketers skip over. They tend to start with the product. So in your case, Dave, they'd be starting talking about bots rather than backing up three steps and having this conversation first. So I didn't want anybody to I didn't want anybody to miss the broader application of these steps. So go ahead now. You sort of have their attention. How do you move them along further? What's your technique?

Yeah, and I hate to say this, and the regulatory authorities don't generally like words like this, but the reality is that most people are more motivated by the stick than the carrot. And if you're trying to motivate somebody with something that's just a little better than what they have, now they get in this big comparison They're comparing what they have to what you're trying to sell them, and they get more analytical, and there's not that motivation. But when they get to a point where they realize, gee, I really need this thing, then because the problem in their mind now is significant, now they're ready to make a change. It's the same reason why if you go to buy a car and you don't need a car, you've got more leverage, you get a better deal. But when your car craps out and you need a car, now you're not going to get as good of a deal because the sales Someone's looking at you, he knows your car just died, and that's the end of it. So a big part of it is education. Education. I've always been a big fan in business of the philosophy of abundance instead of the philosophy of scarcity. Unfortunately, most people operate with scarcity. They want to keep the hood over people's heads. They don't want them to see what's going on, and that's why a lot of advisors love mutual funds, because mutual funds are not transparent. They hope that, "Well, gosh, if I make this sound complex enough, the client will need me. They'll realize they can't do it themselves and that'll be the end of it. Well, if you're abundance-based, that's not the approach you take. You take time to educate people. I go as far, Dan, as even saying for those do-it-yourself type engineers, I'll say, "You know, you're smart enough that you can do what we do on your own. If you wanted to go ahead and watch the fixed income markets 8 or 9 hours a day and you wanted to invest $40,000 in a Bloomberg terminal and maybe another $20,000 on research services, you could retire and you're smart enough to do exactly what we do. But is that really the reason you're retiring? So it's interesting because by having the abundance approach and actually educating people about this as opposed to trying to keep them in a dark room isolated, they make the right decisions. And they realize that you're trying to help and that they're making the decision on their own. You're leading them to that decision. Again, like Dan, like you said, it's really focusing more on the magnitude of the problem of where they have and that they need to make a change. They need to do something different and you are the one who can help them make that something different really, really easy. Because people are inherently lazy, they like that.

Well, there's also a security in having it done. You and I approach— our business is very much the same way. I mean, I— so I, I, I divide the way people sell often into selling by confusion, or selling by education, or selling by disclosure. And so the verbiage that you just used is very— at some point, every time I'm having a conversation with a would-be copywriting client, usually It is true, and I say to them, "You could do this yourself." My best clients are actually capable of doing it themselves. Therefore, they can collaborate intelligently rather than just take what gets served up to them on a plate. The reasons that clients choose not to do it themselves are the following. I don't hide the fact that there are other copywriters in the world. And there are less expensive copywriters, and here are some places you can go find them, any more than you hide the financial alternatives. And you're right, a lot of professionals are really scared of this. They keep trying to prevent people from knowing about options, as if that was possible in today's world. Uh, because of the clock, I want to switch gears just a little bit and switch over to the wholesale side of your business. And commoditization has pervaded that too. Um, so yeah, yes, the financial advisor is awash in a tidal wave of 'we'll train you, we'll coach you' We'll consult with you. We'll be your financial product vendor. Come over here. I can recall, as in many niche niches, when you went through an entire trade journal and there might be 4 or 5 of those kind of ads, and now there's every other page. And so here we are again with basically a recalcitrant prospect, a financial advisor who, gee, been there, done that, heard that. Uh, it's another one of those, I'm busy, this doesn't excite me, and you're in the position of trying to cut through that, uh, clutter and get people to pay attention to you. And you've been successful at it. You've got a very nice group of select advisors across the country affiliated with you. Most of them are top performers. So talk a little bit now about this side of the equation. How are you managing to be— how are you managing to be intriguing, fascinating, arouse curiosity amongst them?

Well, first of all, it comes down to kind of the same thing as on the retail side, is that, you know, when, when someone's looking to leverage their time, it makes sense. All the business books say leverage your time so that you can bring in more business, etc., etc. But the problem is when you leverage your time and you get lazy, as I like to put it, too much, that's when you could become commoditized. And that's what's happened with a lot of these wholesaling organizations. So there are some that will bring in a lot of young guys that come in, and they're the coaches, the trainers. But these young guys have never spent time in the financial services field, really. They've never sold financial products, and they're talking to a guy that brings in $10, $20, maybe $50 million a year of client assets. And of course They don't have credibility. So what does this wholesaling operation do? Well, now they have to pay a good part of what would normally be their revenue out. So now they're working on thinner margins. So, for example, an advisor who brings in $10 million a year of new business might not only get his share of the revenue, might get half of his wholesaler's share too. Because why? Because they're not adding enough value, so they're just paying them extra money. And that alone is the definition of commoditization. Then some others have gotten smart who've been successful on the retail side in financial services, as I have been, and they say, well, this is a way now I can just make some money. I can go ahead and I can get these guys following me, and because I'm in the field, I'm not a 25-year-old trying to teach them, they'll listen to me. And that can work. The problem is oftentimes they do that in a lazy fashion also. They do that in a way where they say, "You know what? I just, I don't really want to focus on it. I want to focus on my practice, seeing my clients, building my retail clientele, and whatever we can get from this other side, people to follow me, they'll follow me." And then when all of a sudden what I teach them, they can't do as well as me, they get discouraged, they're gone, but at least we've made some money off them for a while. Again, it's the lazy way. What I did when I decided that I was going to start that organization was that I really need to make a commitment to be an expert in that. That if I wanted to do well, I couldn't just fake it. Fancy marketing gets people in the door and may even hook them, but ultimately, if I want to keep them, I've got to deliver. I said, "You know, I need to make a paradigm shift, and I need to become first and foremost a mentor to other advisors and secondarily," be a financial advisor to clients. So I went out to actually get certified as a business coach to really get out of my own little world and not just teach people how to become mini-mes because people don't want to become a mini-me. People, especially independent financial advisors, want to be themselves. They want to run their practice based on their own personality. So I realized really quickly that if I just teach them the couple things I'm really good at, that's not enough to keep them. I need to go out and I need to make them the best advisor they can be given their style. And it took more work, but again, it kept us from getting commoditized because now we have advisors that bring in $30, $40, $50, $60 million a year and we don't have to pay them any part of our revenue because we're adding so much value that they want to stay. And that's the key to not being commoditized is value. So that's a big part of how we've done it on the wholesale side.

So I'll give a quick summary. Point for everybody, and that is differentiation requires foundation. And so differentiation has become a hot buzzword, the antidote to commoditization, and there's all sorts of folks striving for differentiation for which they have no foundation. And what Dave described is 3 steps backward to take 5 steps forward, making sure that there was a legitimate marketable and defensible argument for why we're different than anybody else and why we're for you. All right, Dave, thank you very much. We appreciate the insights and your time. I'm going to let you scoot. I'm expecting Sally any second, and I'll talk at you soon.

Sounds good, Dan. Thanks. Thanks, everybody.

All right. There's one of two, gang. And so we wait for Sally. I want to make the point that This is really where you want to start every time you are contemplating an ad campaign, a marketing campaign, a product launch, an outreach to past or present customers or to a market in general. You want to start with how to make sure you set a fire that people will pay attention to. Most advertising and marketing fails largely because it is product-focused. Most people start talking however it is they talk. By media or in person or from the stage, they start talking at and about the product. And because a lot of the advertising you see does this because it's brand advertising and it's product on the shelf advertising, it's dangerous to copy if that's not what you are. And so you see this as the norm.. But for most of you on the call, for most of us, for most of my clients, it can't be the norm because it leaves the prospective audience largely behind. They are not ready to hear about the product. In Dave's case, they're not ready to hear about bond investing instead of stock investing. Um, they are steps further back from that, and if you start talking to them too soon out of the gate about the product, they tune you out pretty quick. They don't find that interesting because you haven't set it up to be interesting. You haven't made it relevant Hi, it's Sally Hogshead. Hey, Sally, how are you? I'm good. Just 10 seconds to finish a sentence and then I will come to you. No problem. So when you start out of the gate talking product, which 90% of all advertisers and marketers do, you're there too soon, too fast for most of the audience. As I said with Dave, who was just on the call with us, people aren't ready to hear about bonds versus stocks. It takes me an entire day, about 6 hours, before they're really ready to hear about, here's the strategy we're going to use and here's all the copywriting I'm going to do. They're further back than that. They need to be interested in and attention called to their interests, not really what you have to sell. So Sally, we just finished with one guest. Thank you for coming. I know our time with you is limited. I have one big pregnant question which I'll get to in a second.

Anything that's pregnant the day after Valentine's Day, I'm totally in. There you go.

Um, I saw— you've probably caught it, um, it was Valentine's Day manufactured news, um, but it is interesting. Therapist offices are now being flooded with couples in distress because, um, one, they have agreed they're going to watch, uh, some show on Netflix And they're going to catch up and watch like the previous year's season. And one of them cheats and gets ahead of the other. Yeah, binge watches. They're calling this Netflix cheating. And marriages are breaking up and people are going to therapists. And, um, you know, uh, clearly if that's the biggest problem in life you have Uh, you and I once had a conversation.

You taught me something fantastic that I have never forgotten. We were standing in my living room and you described to me that the greatest way a brand can create loyalty and repeat customers with passive revenue that can be ongoing, recurring, uh, counted on for the future is to be able to get your hooks into what the consumer wants, thinks, feels, and needs to such a degree that the pain of separation is palpable. And so what Netflix has done is they've taken something that's kind of a commodity, the experience of watching TV, not maybe kind of a commodity, the original content they're generating, but they've created such an emotional furor that the fact that people are having these, if not being irked, at least outright fights over this, I think there's a great lesson for us all to learn from this. People should want to fight over your product or service. Otherwise, you're a commodity and you have to compete on price.

So 14% of women surveyed about this who have this problem— so they are either in counseling now with their husbands or boyfriends, or they have broken up over Netflix cheating— 14% of them say it is more offensive to them than actual cheating. Uh, that's how, that's how willing to fight over this they are.

And you're absolutely right, man, if we can get them wanting to fight over us, um, if we could get them standing in line, you know, and anytime a consumer goes to an extreme length, um, we want them standing in line 3 days to buy an iPhone, we want them being on a waiting list for a year before the next Tesla is actually out, that is brand furore. That, that's absolutely priceless. At that point, you can charge whatever you want to because it's irreplaceable. It's not just an experience. At that point, it becomes an ultimate badge.

So I want to back up and do a quickie intro for people that don't know you, and then we're going to come right back to this point. Great. So Sally Hogshead has been generous enough to join us for, oh, a quarter of an hour or so today, and then after she has to depart, we'll open it up for some conversation with me for those of you that are on the call live. Sally, as many of you will know, is the world's foremost expert on how to be fascinating. Her first book, Fascinate, is all about that. Her second book is a much deeper dive, How the World Sees You, if I'm not misquoting title. Uh-huh, correct. And both, of course, are available, um, at Amazon and elsewhere. Uh, Sally's been at a number of our events. You may have seen her there. If you haven't, you've missed something. And before we finish, Sally will give you a website or two where you can go see everything that she is up to. So looping back, the pregnant question is this: And I don't know if I'd put Tesla in this category, but— because I think Tesla has had an advantage of being somewhat sexy and exciting and fascinating intrinsically, but most people think and complain about being in businesses that aren't that. So they hear you talk about, boy, wouldn't it be great to be Netflix, or wouldn't it be great to be Apple, and having people stand in line and get divorced over your products. And a guy will say, well, I got a barber shop, so, and I sell insurance, and I, etc., etc. And so most people think they're actually stuck in a rather boring and mundane and ordinary and maybe commoditized and maybe Amazon thing. And so the romancing of those stones, which is largely what you've done your whole career all the way back to agency, is the question of the day. What are the just best, most brilliant strategies for taking what is inherently unsexy and kind of getting out of your own way and finding a way to make it a blazing fire that people all gather around to find out what it's all about?

Yes, the more commoditized a product or service, the more potential it has to be something you can raise your prices, attract more interest, get people buzzing about it. But you used a phrase that I want to come back to, and that was romancing the stone, which I know is part of our theme. And so, so with that, I'd like to tell you a story that you may not know, and it's a story about diamonds since we're talking about romancing the stone. Diamonds used to be considered a complete commodity. One diamond was not perceived as being different than another in the The problem in the marketplace was people didn't have a way to measure why one diamond should be worth more money than another. De Beers came along because they had such an influx of diamonds coming into the United States. That's when they created the 4 C's: cut, clarity, carat, and color. And so, they kind of arbitrarily, they created the condition by which diamonds would be measured so that they could have a scale of price. And so, in doing that, what they did is they decommoditized it. I worked on the De Beers account. For years. And it was, God, it was just like such a fantastic example, Jan, of everything that you describe about how do you decommoditize something that's inherently a commodity. And the answer is you create some kind of emotional or intellectual connotation around it. What De Beers did is that in focus groups, they realized that men don't know necessarily how to communicate their emotion. They know they love their fiancée or their girlfriend on Valentine's Day. They know they want to be able to give their wife something for their anniversary, but they don't have the words to put in the card. And that's why Hallmark writes the card, but not necessarily well. So, De Beers came out with the eternity ring. I love you forever, so therefore we're going to have diamonds in a continuous circle around your finger. Or, the past, present, future ring, also known as the 3-stone ring. And so, what De Beers was doing is they were baking in some emotion. Here's what's brilliant about this that all of us can be applying, especially as small businesses for our products and services. Almost everything we sell is a commodity, but if we can create some storyline around it, a mythology, so that the object stops being the object and it begins to take on an emotional connection. Here's an example. I live, my husband and I have a beach house in a sleepy little surf town named New Smyrna. There's only one way to get in and out of the town., and it's a ding, ding, ding, the drawbridge. But the only problem is the drawbridge goes up about every 30 to 50 minutes depending on the time of day and the sailboats. There's a little tiny surf shack named Gnarly's Surf Shack right at the base of this ding, ding, ding drawbridge. And Gnarly's used to have a huge problem because people didn't want to go there because they were getting gassed out with the carbon monoxide of cars waiting to go over the bridge. So, they did They didn't change their marketing budget. They didn't spend more. They didn't find new media. They didn't get more overhead. They didn't hire new employees. All they did was they took something that was a disadvantage and repositioned it to a sharp competitive advantage. And the advantage was this: when the bridge goes up, the price of beer goes down to 25 cents. It's called bridge up, up, beer down. So not only are people not avoiding Gnarly's because of the ding, ding, ding, people flood to Gnarly's for the experience of that bridge going up. And that's an awesome example of something that all of us could do. If we could take our so-called disadvantages, the ways in which we're in a poor location, our service delivery is not as fast as our competitor, we don't have a lot of hands-on service. In my case, I'm born with the last name Honkshead. If we can take those things and we can reposition them to become an advantage, then we can stop competing on price. And that's an example of romancing the stone, both literally with stones but also with bridges and last names.

Well, the micro moral of the story is that people will happily inhale toxic fumes and guarantee themselves early death by cancer for a 25-cent beer. But only slightly broadened, it's an important point. So people first of all think they're stuck with boring stuff and that there's— that's just the nature of their business. Then you got all the way to the point where they think they have a profound disadvantage and they don't figure out How to turn the disadvantage into an advantage or a sales story.

May I offer an example?

Yes.

Dan, you have worked with skincare companies, you know, dermatology brands. One of the things that I'm sure you've seen in the studies is that women believe that if a product like an exfoliant, if it doesn't sting, it's not working. So sometimes the product doesn't sting and they have to induce the sting in order for women to feel like there's credibility, like they're getting what they're paying for. Another example of that is when I first created my assessment, the Fascination Advantage, up till now I've measured a million professionals, but at that point, it had only measured about 10,000, and I was— my team and I were creating every assessment by hand, and that meant that it took 72 hours for us to be able to get people their assessments. So, that was a disadvantage. I couldn't do it immediately. It wasn't like click the button and up pops your report. So, I turned it into an advantage by giving a storyline and saying, "Your report is so important to us and so customized, and we're looking at the DNA of your personal brand in such a close, specialized way that we ask you to give us 72 hours so we can make sure that it's a crystallization of who you are at your best." They loved that because it built suspense. So, we were creating an experience around it. After, say, 2 years, we were able— I should use air quotes— we were able to stop doing that and we shifted over. And people didn't value the results as much because they didn't have to wait 3 days for it. It's kind of like what stinging is to a facial treatment, waiting time is to appreciation for a result sometimes. So I'll give you a swap story.

Yeah, please swap it around. I'll swap you a story. So in— I guess we started in 1979. I had this company, I created it for a speaker, and we put chiropractors and dentists in free evening seminars and sold them a resource package, at the time audio cassettes. And when we began the seminars the product wasn't done. Um, ultimately is 24 audio cassettes. And so we had one, tape number one, and it was sold still prepaid, not continuity. And but it was sold on the basis that if we give you the entire package tonight, we know what will happen. You'll take it home, the shrink wrap will never come off, It'll prop up a table with a short leg, uh, and the likelihood of you ever getting to cassette number 22 is somewhere between slim and none. Therefore, as an added value at no extra cost, we are going to dole them out to you 2 a month for the next 12 months. They arrive, they get you. Yeah, and by the way, we found the same thing when we we now had the whole product and we took that out, and here it is, it actually diminished sales. And so we went back to a 4-month time delivery.

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