Dog Ownership License: Brilliant Idea or Too Much Red Tape?

Hello, dog peeps. Jack here. Just a quick one before we get into this episode. You may or may not be aware that when I'm not talking dog stuff with Max, I in fact interview people who are incarcerated in prisons across the United States on a show called One Minute Remaining Stories from the Inmates. And that show has been nominated for an award in America. And I would love your support if you've got 60 seconds to click the link in the show notes of this episode and just vote for my show. That would be amazing if you could. Thank you very much indeed. Oh, and don't forget to verify your email address. Otherwise, the vote does not count. Thank you.

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It's the Dog People Podcast with your host, Jack Lawrence.

You know, Malinois seem to be like the dog at the moment. Like, I think people see them on Instagram doing these incredible things. Yeah.

Go, oh my God, that's awesome. And then I get one like, oh my God, what the fuck? And Max O'Neill.

If you want to ask me how often I walk my own dog a week, it's only twice a week.

It's the Dog People Podcast, the podcast hopefully giving you enough no-nonsense approach to dog training so you never have to shout. It's okay, he's friendly. My name is Jack Lawrence. Max O'Neill, the Down Under Dog Trainer. Now, Max, we want to talk an interesting question. We've already spoken about regulating the industry when it comes to trainers.

Yeah.

But another question we need to ask is, do we think we should need a licence to actually own a dog? Everybody, Joe Blow on the street getting a dog, you need a licence before you're allowed to have one.

Yeah. Whether it's a Cavoodle or whether it's A German Shepherd or anything in between. Me personally, I am, I am pro it, but I'm keen to sort of chat about it with you guys. And we're definitely keen to hear what you guys think in the comments in the Facebook group, The Dog People Podcast, because it's something I've heard really, really good arguments for and some pretty good arguments against. And like I said, I'm personally on the side of, I think we'd benefit for it. But we're kind of just keen to chat about it today and break it down a bit. And I don't think Jack and I have actually had this discussion. No, we haven't. Each other think of it and whatnot. But it's something that's popped up for me time to time, and it is something— if I look at my long-term goals for being in this industry, one of the things written on my like 10-plus year plan is to get to a stage where I'm a big enough name so that I can lobby either the state or federal government and get something like that put in place, some sort of ownership, uh, license regulation, something. I don't have exactly what I want very, very clearly thought out, Just some rough ideas. And like I said, I think we'd benefit from it. But if you can talk me out of it or talk me around to it or add some good points I haven't thought of, I'd be very keen to hear it because it's a, it's an interesting one.

I mean, I may even use your argument here against you.

Yeah. Okay, cool.

I'll give you a chance. Because when we spoke about, obviously I was very much, when we spoke about the regulation of the trainers in the industry, you know, I was very for it. And you came with your side and gave a really great argument. You know, you're getting governments involved. What angle are they going to take? Etc. I feel like that could go the same way with dog ownership. Anytime you get a government involved with this thing, I mean, I'm not the biggest fan of governments as it is. I think they're all money-making mafias. But that's for another podcast.

Let's get the tinfoil hats out, hey?

But essentially I go, I do agree with it because I think it's far too easy for people just to go and grab a dog willy-nilly. Like you can go to wherever it might be tomorrow and literally hand over some cash and be handed a life to look after. And in many respects you can be handed a dangerous weapon. You know, if I wanted to go out tomorrow and buy a Rottweiler, I can, and I don't have to— there's nothing stopping me training that Rottweiler poorly, making it aggressive, making it reactive, and then just going to Cromer Dog Beach and setting it loose on everyone else and going, yeah, sorry about that. Of course there's fines involved, but that doesn't stop that. I mean, it's too late then. You know, once your dog's attacked a dog, it can do some serious damage or a person. I mean, people have died. Many people have died at the mouths of dogs.

Yeah.

And that's because of not the dog's fault. It's the ownership fault. It is 110% always the owner. I mean, all these, these, you know, breed bans, I completely disagree with. Well, I agree with them because the wrong people get their hands on them. And that's maybe the issue where it comes to licenses and should you have a license? And maybe it should be, you need a license to own a specific, you know, they shouldn't ban breeds.

Well, that's what they've got in Germany, funnily enough. We've just had our friends move back to Germany, the motherland. That's where they're from. And they took their Rottweiler, one of our favorite Rottweilers in the world, Fish. And here, perfectly legal to own fish. Moving back home, they're like, oh, you're bringing a Rottweiler? Cool. You need to apply for this working dog licence. So, they had to do this like massive behavioural questionnaire and like, you know, going, do you understand your dog? Do you understand the purpose they're bred for? Why do you have this dog? This whole big thing. And they were like, this isn't just a tick and a flick. This isn't just a formality. Like, if we don't meet the requirements, they might say you can't have a Rottweiler. There's no point. And what's crazy to see is like we go to Germany every year. That's where my wife's from, so we always go visit. Is what's wild there is we actually don't know a single person with a dog we worked out out of everyone she knows. Every time I go there, I'm like, oh, I can't wait to see these German dogs. There's none around, which is really weird. It's like the dog training and dog breeding capital of the world. Like you think of the dogs we get from Germany, whether it's like shepherds, Rottweilers, Weimaraners, anything. And then you go there and there's barely any around. But again, they take dog ownership much more seriously there. On a kind of a separate topic now, but you walk in a pet shop here at Pet Barn and everything's colorful, fluffy, squeaky.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've seen the videos of these things. Yeah,

you walk in a pet shop or a dog shop there, it's like a horse tack shop. It's like strong leather leads, proper jute tug toys, not fluffy squeaky stuff or extendable leads or just crap. It's, um, it's viewed quite differently there. So that's kind of when I look at that and go, okay, like, you know, everyone can get a King Charles Cavalier or a Whippet or whatever, but If you're going to get something a bit more serious, there's some sort of a licensing involved. The problem with that is like, where do you, you know, where do you draw the line? It gets murky. There'll be breeds on there that you're like, seriously? And there'll be breeds that are not on there that it gets murky.

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I think it's tough. Like the way I view the whole licensing thing is same going into our dog training regulation chat the other day. If you haven't listened to that episode, Keen to hear your thoughts on that one, but I think the moment you start putting training involved in it, because there's such polarizing opinions on the right and the wrong way to do things, and each have their merit, although there is one side that's right, um, the moment you include that, it becomes really tough and shitty. So if this dog ownership license including here's how to own, raise, train a dog as part of the education, and you'd have people go, cool, I did this course, it gave me very crappy limited training knowledge. And let's face it, if the government were to regulate anything, it would probably be the most palatable approach to the masses, which is your whole force-free, you know, nothing sort of training. People would go, I've done this course, I am qualified, I'm gonna go get myself a Malinois, and then in 8 months' time go, why is it biting everyone? So that would be an issue. But one thing I think that, you know, both sides agree on, right, is let's take behavior and training out of it for a moment, from like the the force-free community and the balanced community. One thing you sort of see if you do a bit of a Venn diagram, the crossover in the middle is we tend to kind of agree on like the ethology of an animal, like in terms of meeting their needs. Like when I do see people who have more of that force-free approach, I'm like, okay, we might not agree on the right way to teach your dog doing something or stop them doing things. But one thing we tend to agree on is like how to fulfill their needs. So if I think of the course focused on, or the license focused on education, hey, here's a history about what dogs are bred for. What their needs are, how to meet their needs, understanding, you know, dogs at large, but also individual breeds. Here's why Rottweilers were created. Here's why Dachshunds were created. And here's what instincts they possess. And I think something like that, like if you were applying for a Dachshund, you might need to go, okay, you need to do your general dog licence and you need to do the subparts. The same like with my boat and jet ski licence. You also need to know about this thing. And then you might get that and go, actually, this sounds like a lot of dog. Maybe I don't want to do this. And then— Maybe I've done my general dog license with— I've got that as my part 1, and then I've, you know, qualified to own a Dachshund. But now all of a sudden I now want to own a German Shepherd. Well, my Dachshund license won't cover it. Maybe now I need to go back and go, cool, I need to do the German Shepherd education component of this to now go, cool, I fully understand what I'm getting. Because it is insane how many houses I go into and go, you know, what made you pick an Aussie Shepherd? They go, what do you mean? I go, well, Why do you want a herding breed? They go, is this dog for herding? And it's like, oh God, you know what I mean? So there's that sort of thing.

I mean, dogs very much are treated like an impulse buy really these days. I mean, yeah. And I agree. I think if you made it slightly, slightly more difficult or a couple of more hurdles to jump through, that would really limit the amount of people.

It'd weed people out.

I mean, the frustration and I, and I understand that you can't have dogs in shelters, like just filling shelters, but the frustration I have when certain shelters advertise You know, this weekend, all dogs, $50. I want to go around there and say, what the fuck are you doing?

Seriously?

Do you know the people that are going to turn up and buy these dogs? They are just going to come back here or end up somewhere else.

Yeah. Yeah. Keep that kennel free. We'll be back in 2 weeks. Yeah.

I understand that, you know, you're full and you're at capacity and all the rest of it. I get it. I understand. But selling dogs for $50 or whatever it is, the specials that they do is just, it blows my, every time I see that, it blows my mind because, you know, your Joe Blow who's, you know, kids have been bugging, you know, bugging him a dog for months. I'm not, you know, buying a dog. I'm not spending a couple of hundred bucks on a dog. All of a sudden, oh, but Dad, you know, they're doing a special. Oh, fine, whatever. We'll go and have a look.

What's a Cane Corso?

Yeah, exactly. And then he just sees, yeah, like whatever it might be, goes down there, throws over $50 or whatever it is. I'm pulling that figure out of my backside. Okay. So don't hold me to that, but it is cheap sometimes. So cheap that I'm going, this is insane. Kira.

Yeah.

Kira cost me $900. She's a rescue. So that is more of a commitment. And I think if you added that extra bit of a hurdle, as you said, It would weed out those people who are just doing that impulse buy because they want to shut the kids up or they think it might be a fun, you know, they have a weak moment where the kid's birthday, oh, let's go and get that puppy they've always wanted. And they can, they can just drive down and go and get it today and come home and have a dog straight away.

No license, nothing. And that's it. It's like, it's such a good point is the more obstacles or barriers to entry you put between people and the thing they want, the more people it naturally filters out. So for example, like where I got Nelson, right, they breed very good Rottweilers. When I went to buy him, like, hey, I'm Max, like, you know, I wasn't trying to, but, you know, just so you know, I'm like a serious applicant. Here's my thing. They go, cool, here's like a 5-page form, fill it out. What do you want to do with the dog? Why do you want a Rottweiler? Why do you want to do that? But there's all this stuff. And I was like, submitted. I was like, I hope I get approved.

Yeah.

But they all— when I then went and met the breeders, we have now this brilliant relationship with them. They're honestly the best. We were speaking about it. I was like, how many people like, oh, we have people who go, oh, I can't be bothered doing that. It's like, if you can't spend an hour, if that filling out 5 forms, you definitely don't

need

a working life. Why do you want a 10-year commitment with something clearly above your—

That's going to take a lot more than an hour of your time.

Exactly. So yeah, I do think an ownership system could work. And the reason I think that is because it is working in the countries that you see with something similar implemented. It is It is working really well. And this— and like Jack said, it's not a breed ban, but it's a breed regulation or even a whole species regulation. And like I said, I go to Germany and Mel always says, she goes, we don't want to move here because you'd be out of business. You wouldn't have anything to do. There's not that many dogs. Because again, people go, uh, yeah, I don't need one that bad. Or if they do, they're so well educated, they're so well informed that none of them got bloody issues. I'm like, well— Yeah.

I mean, dare I say it's like gun licenses. I mean, like in this country, I mean, I've got a mate of mine who has a number of guns. It's not like you can't get them. There's just a fair few barriers of entry to be able to get your hands on one. And that means that, you know, the vast majority of the population go, well, I don't need one that bad. What do I need one for? But you know, if you go to our friends in America where you can literally get one for opening a bank account, you go, sweet. Well, if I can have one, I'll just have one.

Yeah. Free gun.

And then obviously you see the chaos that ensues. And that's, you know, obviously I'm going to the extreme But it just shows that if you add a bit more of a barrier to entry, then those people who just go out on a whim and get something that could kill someone, not just a gun, a dog as well, you know.

Puts it in the too hard basket. It does. And if something as simple as that, a bit of paperwork and a bit of course and a bit of education is too much and people go, oh, fuck it, this is too much. Well, clearly a dog wasn't right for you. And Jack's right is, you know, that might sound dramatic, but I find it, you know, Which is kind of insane that you need a license to go and own a turtle that lives in a tank, which I don't agree with that part, but you need a license to own a turtle who lives in a tank, which isn't hurting anybody unless it, you know, goes into a sewer, falls into, you know, mutating energy and turns into a ninja.

Hey, you know, that was a cartoon.

Yeah. But yeah, it's not real life. Wait, what? But you can also then just go again to the pound and go get a 40-kilo-plus dog.

You don't know its history.

With biting people or fighting dogs in its instincts, you know. And then go, sweet, I'm going to take this thing home to you. Let's unclip it at the beach and see if he's friendly. And it's just like, that's—

It's okay, he's friendly. I think. I'm not sure. We just got him.

Yeah. Sorry. It's insane. And you see that all the time. And I just find it wild that that's a perfectly legal thing to do and there's no barrier to that. Like some of the dogs I've seen people go home with, like, you are so far out of your depth, it's not even funny. Like, it's terrifying. Like literally my first day back at work this year, absolutely nailed by a 7-month-old Malinois on my thigh because they were first-time dog owners as adults. Like, yeah, okay, oh, my dad had a German Shepherd as a kid, but they went and got a Malinois. The person was like, seen it on Instagram, and then boom. And yeah, you know, now it's— yeah, it's just wild. So yeah, personally, I think— I personally, I think we'd only benefit from it. Like, if you had— like I said, if we just took training out of it, it was like, look, like, we're not going to teach you how to do that, we're not going to teach you how to raise and train, we're just going to teach you about the animal, and you have to tick off this thing. And maybe there's a questionnaire or whatever, whatever, whatever is At the minimum, people would be better informed. If they didn't want to do the course, well, you can't own a dog. It would also—

And I think it doesn't even have to be a financial thing as well. I think, because some people might say, well, but you know, there'll be people out there that can't afford these things. It doesn't need to be a financial thing. It needs to be a commitment thing.

It could cost a dollar to get a licence.

It should be a time commitment thing where you actually have to sit down and take some time and actually, as you said, go through the breed stuff, learn about it, understand what you're getting into and all the rest of it.

I mean, dogs are already microchipped, so there's already some level of regulation to ownership and Um, and whatnot. But it could also massively eradicate backyard breeders. It's like, hey, like, if you're caught selling dogs to people who aren't qualified to own them, like, you're, you're in big shit, you know what I mean? And I think that could be really good too, is, you know, it, it will at the minimum then— it also would then take breeding dogs for profit out of the equation. Again, like, a good breeder is doing it because they genuinely want to better the breed. At some stage, I would love to breed Rottweilers. I'm not doing it to get rich because There's not much demand for working line Rottweilers. We might do one litter every 5 years. But that's what I mean. If we— if you then have the license in place and all of a sudden you go, oh shit, we were a puppy mill German Shepherd breeder. We used to have hundreds of customers a month and now we don't because no one's got a bloody license. Well, I can't breed them anymore. So what's the point? It would take that out of it, which means less dogs in shelters. I just think more ownership regulation and licensing around is only a better thing. Of course, there's going to be downsides. There's going to be There's going to be things that suck. There's going to be things you go, oh, this is, you know, shit. But for me, there's more good than bad. And yeah, like I said, I've heard some good arguments against, but I've yet to have anything that changed my mind. So keen to hear your guys' thoughts.

Yeah. What do you think? Licenses, yay or nay? Let us know in the Facebook group, search the Dog People Podcast, and we'll catch you on the next one. The podcast is a Mashed Pumpkin production hosted by Jack Lawrence and Max O'Neill. Edited, produced, and audio production by Jack Lawrence.

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