Dog Training Standards: Do We Need Laws or Just Better Trainers?

Hello, dog peeps. Jack here. Just a quick one before we get into this episode. You may or may not be aware that when I'm not talking dog stuff with Max, I in fact interview people who are incarcerated in prisons across the United States on a show called One Minute Remaining: Stories from the Inmates. And that show has been nominated for an award in America. And I would love your support if you've got 60 seconds to click the link in the show notes of this episode and just vote for my show. That would be amazing if you could. Thank you very much indeed. Oh, and don't forget to verify your email address. Otherwise, the vote does not count. Thank you.

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It's the Dog People Podcast with your host Jack Lawrence. You know, Malinois seem to be like the dog at the moment. Like, I think people see them on Instagram doing these incredible things. Yeah. Go, oh my God, that's awesome! And then I get one like, oh my God, what the fuck I done? And Max O'Neill.

If you want to ask me how often I walk my own dog a week, it's only twice a week.

This is the Dog People Podcast, the podcast hopefully giving you a no-nonsense approach to dog training so you never have to shout, it's okay, it's friendly. My name is Jack Lawrence, not a dog trainer, just a dog training enthusiast. But of course, as always, Max O'Neill, the Down Under Dog Trainer. And today, Max, we, uh, I believe we have a difference in opinion on this topic, which will be interesting. So we want to talk about the dog training industry, and the question is, should the dog training industry be regulated? Because for those who don't know at the moment, basically anyone listening to this right now can go out and call themselves a dog trainer.

Yeah, absolutely. Right now is you could just create a Facebook profile tomorrow, add it onto a business card. You could even call yourself a dog behaviorist. That's like, you could call yourself dog trainer, behaviorist, dog psychology expert. Other than being like a vet, there's really not any regulation around this. So you can call yourself whatever you want with no training, nothing. And quite often that's what happens. And yeah, we've actually got differing opinions on that in terms of whether it should or shouldn't be. I myself am a quote unquote licensed dog trainer. Reason I say that is I have my Cert III in dog training and behaviour, which is Australian qualification. I have my NPOPO Gold and Silver, and I have a qualification in the UK. But the reason I say quote unquote license is because, with all due respect to those qualifications, I don't need them to practise. And sometimes that's a good thing, sometimes it's a bad thing, and that's what we want to get into today. So You're actually for regulation of the industry, right?

Yes. I mean, and look, I mean, there may be dog trainers that listen to this and say, shut up, you moron, you don't know what you're talking about. But I come from, I'll tell you where I come from it from an angle of, and it, you know, I think the fact that you've got all your licenses and you've actually done schooling should be a minimum requirement for dog trainers, in my personal opinion. And look, and I know there are so many good trainers, Pat Stewart for one, who hasn't got, you know, technically formal training, but is a phenomenal trainer. I just think there is just, especially with the age of now Instagram and social media, there is so many of these quote unquote online trainers who are selling courses, giving out advice and all sorts of stuff. And the industry, as you know, is so divided on the topic of dog training. And that's probably another reason why you couldn't regulate it, I would suggest, because the industry is so divided on the right way to train a dog.

Yeah.

I'm often on Facebook on these dog pages and stuff like that, and people are sort of saying, you know, that they're dealing with this issue and that issue. And I feel like, oh, I think I can help this person. But then I go suddenly go, no, no, no, no, no, you're not a dog trainer. It's like, stay in your lane.

Yeah.

So I, but I think there should be something that if you want to be a dog trainer, you need to at least have, like you do, some form of qualification to say, you know what, I've studied this, I've got my flying hours. You know, you can't drive a car without, you know, having a certain amount of hours under your belt. I think for me to be able to suddenly just go, you know what? I've trained my dog reasonably well. Yeah. You know, I've dealt with some issues that she had that I reckon I can help other people with. I'll give that a go. But then someone might come to me with a reactive dog, which is reactive and aggressive reactive. And I'll go, I reckon I can do that. And I might make it a lot worse. You know, it probably would make it a lot worse.

And we do see that a lot.

And this is the problem. You do see it a lot.

You know, like a lot.

The amount of trainers I had with my other dog that we've spoken about before, who I had serious issues with, we won't go back through that whole thing again, but the amount of trainers I had come in and now knowing what I know now, after having been through an intensive with Kira, 2 years of just studying, not, not through books, but, you know, online and talking to you.

You do a lot.

And just focus and just really— I look at those trainers now and go, what were you doing?

Yeah,

I'll tell you what you were doing. Nothing.

Yeah,

you gave me nothing. And you were charging me a fortune. I spent thousands of dollars on these trainers. And they gave me no actual help or advice that was going to work. And it's true. It didn't work. Now that I followed everything they told me to follow and none of it worked. No one spoke to me about a dog needing a job. No one said your dog needs an outlet. You know, this was a German Shepherd cross Kelpie. This dog was bored, frustrated, had separation anxiety. And at no point did anyone mention crate training. And I'm going, none of that.

Instead they just give you advice like, don't let it sleep on the couch. You should eat before it.

Yeah. There was one guy who said, made me buy a vest for the dog. So a weighted vest and said, now when you go for your walks, just make the dog wear the weighted vest. So it's, and he said, so it's got a job. So he used the job term, but he obviously didn't understand what that meant. The dog's job isn't to carry a vest on a walk.

Yeah.

Anyway, you can hear the frustration in my voice. And that is why I think that there should be some form of regulation in the dog training industry because of the bad advice I've had in the past and the advice I see people spewing online.

Yeah.

Going, what are you, what are you doing?

And I agree with everything you just said. So when we, when I say that Jack and I are on different sides of the fences, it's only just like I am, I'm nearly on the fence, but I'm only 1% leaning to the we shouldn't, just because I fear of how that would go. If I look at the state of the dog training and regulation industry at the moment, like I said, it's heavily unregulated. The only thing really that is regulated is what breed of dog you can own depending on the state and country that you're in. We just look at like, say, the bully ban in the UK, pit bulls being banned here, etc. And every country's got their list of banned breeds. And, you know, that's a whole nother thing as well. So we're not going to go into that today, but could be an episode. But, and the other thing that's regulated is what tools you can use. For example, in Queensland, prong collars are banned, but e-collars are legal. In New South Wales, it's a complete opposite of that where prong collars are legal, e-collars aren't. In Victoria, both of those things are legal, but what's illegal is bite work. You can't legally do any sort of— other than a tug toy, you can't put a dog on a sleeve, you can't do IGP. So you have all these people have to train in absolute secrecy or drive to the border in Albury at New South Wales and go train at a club there. Like, it's insane. So that's the way we're regulated.

And so even when it comes to regulations, the dog trade, the dog industry is divided.

It's completely divided. And I guess the common denominator there is it is more of the The crowd that do think all dogs are fluffy little angels that can be trained just with treats and love and, you know, etc., etc., is my biggest fear is if the industry were to be regulated, the certification that they would pick would be the most bullshit certificate ever. That it would be all they teach is just absolute nonsense and it wouldn't help anybody. But I guess with that being said, you could still just go and tick and flick and be like, cool, thanks.

Yeah, do it your way.

Exactly. Treat pushing certificate. So I think that's why I slightly lean to that way, but I agree with everything you said. I think there needs to be some sort of barrier to entry because some of the shit you hear people— I'll have clients, I'm like, sorry, like, what? Why are you standing on your dog's bed right now and eating a Jatz biscuit? They go, oh, well, the last guy told me to do it. I'm like, I'm looking at you not knowing what you're doing, and your dog's probably even more confused than I am. Like, you do hear some pretty scat advice, and you do see some people who, like you said, who just have no Actual knowledge or reasoning behind they do what they do. It's either something they've cooked up in their head, something they heard from their Uncle Trevor, or like you said, a lot of just people who've seen enough content on Instagram or watched enough episodes of Season Milan that it's what I call chauffeur knowledge. They can recite this perfectly. They've watched that reel ten times. They can explain it the exact way that so and so might explain it. But the second you ask a question, they and they kind of breaks apart from there. You do see a lot of that.

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It's a really, really tough one. Hey, is I think in a perfect world, if everyone could do, you know, a really well-rounded qualification and logic took precedent and the people who made the decision were like, cool, we're going to look at this holistically, not just one corner of dog training, it'd be great. But I just,

This is the problem, I suppose. And looking at it from that angle, if you hand over the reins to some sort of government entity to make the decision on this, they are going to go down the route of no doubt positive only, because that's government. Government don't want to be seen to be doing anything that may be perceived by some as controversial. And as we know, not wanting to dive too deep into this, but the people who are solely positive only can be very loud, very aggressive, funnily enough, for positive only.

Ironically. Yeah.

And I would imagine that a government entity would say, right, well, this is the road we're going. It's positive only and that's it. And then, and as we know, in our opinion, that is not the way you train a dog. And I suppose if you were then forced to do that, and then as you said, you could just tick and flick and then say, I'm going to do it my own way. And then that basically means it's pointless anyway at that point.

But the problem is, is like with regulation does become hard and fast rules. Like, like in Queensland right now, there's obviously still people who use prong collars. I myself just, I don't think it's worth the risk, um, of getting the fine, so that's not me. But I know a lot of people still do, and that's cool, power to them. But if the industry became fully regulated, is as much as you go, cool, I got my piece of bullshit paper, but I'm still going to do things my way, is it would all of a sudden become policed. And

yeah, you run the risk of fines.

Exactly. Like anything that's regulated, you know, you've got the government doing You know, I guess what you call like a mystery shopper. Like, I had a client who is a GP, and she was saying during COVID she used to have, you know, mystery shoppers come around where they're a patient, but she's like, you're asking some really weird questions that you would only know if you had this. And they're basically checking to see what answers they'll give.

And you'd also have people trying to, you know, do undercover and, you know, catch you out. Yeah, exactly. And dob you in.

And yeah, and that's it. So as much as you'd love to train your way away, you would to a degree have your hands tied and go I want to give this client the information that they need, but I'm so worried about losing my license and not being able to put food on the table and losing my career that I have to give you this bullshit answer that I've been forced to say from this bullshit qualification. So that's, that's my fear.

And Max, I'm folding faster than Superman on laundry day because I'm coming back to the other side.

And honestly, mate, you ask me next week and I might be on the other side of the fence. But

no, I mean, that side of things, I do agree. And there's just frustration again at just like the amount of people who call themselves dog trainers. Yeah, exactly.

Exactly. And the other thing is as well, is as you said at the start, is my absolute hero that I'm the biggest disciple of, Pat Stewart. He, like I said, he's got his Nepo post silver and gold, and he's probably got, you know, some other military qualifications. I'm not entirely sure.

Yeah, but that's the thing, he's got— he's, he's—

well, yeah, in terms of formal accreditation, yeah, he's got so much experience, knowledge, and, and shadowing this person and learning from that person. He's the best. Like, I worship Pat, but as he'd say himself, he doesn't have a formal qualification. And so I don't want to speak for Pat here. The problem is, is if the industry became regulated overnight, all of a sudden these amazing, incredible industry-leading thought leaders, innovators like your Pats, like your Ivan Balbanov, like your Bart Balone, you know, like your Helmut Reiser, you'd have all these. But Kiribel Yohannes, you'd have all these. Mia Skogstad, I could list it goes on with these incredible trainers who don't, because there's no such regular industry regulation, who would be forced overnight to, hey, you have to shut up shop until you can get in line and do this absolutely, you know, what would likely be a bullshit qualification. Or even if it is a really good qualification, it's so far beneath them. And then if the industry did become regulated, all of a sudden the, the few, uh, RTOs— what is it, registered training authority or regulated training organization— Would be so overrun and inundated with a waitlist like this. Even the waitlist right now to do the Cert 3 in Queensland is like 18 months.

Yeah.

All of a sudden, if you said, hey, every trainer in Australia, you need to do one of these at one of the Brisbane, Sydney, or Melbourne things, those waitlists would be backed up 5, 10 years, and you'd have these people go, well, I'm the best at what I'm doing.

Yeah. And you want me to do this crap?

Yeah. I'd either do this stuff that's completely beneath me, or I do this stuff that's absolute bullshit, and I think it would just throw the industry into such a spin that that's kind of why I'm like, I, I don't think it should. But in a perfect world, if it was like a root— like, you know, you know, if it was like a full-on diploma— I don't think you need to do a bachelor's level, but if it was like a diploma's level of education and it was really good and there was enough, uh, registered training organizations to be able to service everyone and get everyone done within like a year, it would be And the other plus side of that would be the people that are a bit cuckoo who know nothing about dog training or are indoctrinated to a certain unproductive style of dog training, they might actually have their mind changed going through and doing a really good course. They might actually go, oh, what I was doing was ridiculous. And that could be good too.

Sometimes when you're forced to, to hear a different opinion, you change your own.

Yeah, 100%.

Which is exactly what happens in this episode.

Yeah, exactly. Like even recently, training for a long time now, and I've got my really— like, I'm very malleable, but I know the way I like to do things. And when I went and did my knee popo gold in Perth last year, I flew there every week. Like, my brain was stretched in such a different way, and I was like, oh my God, this is the same as what I've been doing but so far removed from what I've been doing in other ways. It was like I would just go to bed with a headache every night, and it was the best thing for me. And that's it. It's like, yeah, just more education's never a bad thing, but I worry that the education could be— Yeah, I think that's a good point. Out of garbage.

So yeah. Okay. Fair enough.

But interested to hear what you guys think. That's just, that's what we think. That's 2 people.

Well, it's interesting for me as someone obviously who's not in the industry at all. And again, to any dog trainer who may listen to this, I apologize. I'm not here trying to destroy your income and all the rest of it. It's purely an opinion that I've now had changed, to be honest, listening to someone who's in the industry, you know, saying these, these could be the issues. I completely agree with that. And it's a, and it's a very valid argument, but I suppose it's like with any industry, there's good and bad, even in the ones that are regulated. It's no different to attorneys. You know, yeah, good and bad ones everywhere. You know, everyone supposedly got a license and then been to school and the rest of it.

It's a tough one. You go around in circles with it because it'd improve a lot of people, it'd restrict a lot of people. It's really, really tough. But keen to hear what you guys think because maybe there's another perspective or another argument for or against that we go, hey, that's not a bad idea. And it's— as long as we have these discussions and everyone contributes to these discussions, we move closer and closer towards finding a solution. So

Well, if you've got an opinion or any thoughts on that one, the Dog People Podcast on Facebook, of course, where you can ask all your questions of Max as well for any dog training stuff. We'll see you next time. The Dog People Podcast is a Mashed Pumpkin production hosted by Jack Lawrence and Max O'Neill, edited, produced, and audio production by Jack Lawrence.

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