Unspoken Security Ep 53: Evolution of the Security Integration Landscape

What's really emerging is this kind of value chain ecosystem where, look, all those things are still there. I mean, you're gonna need hardware, you're gonna need software, but fulfillment and security operations and services and how does that integrate with AI and data strategies, really all collaborating around the customer outcomes that are being, trying to be delivered in a much more dynamic and real-time fashion. And that's a very interesting process to watch evolve right now. Welcome to Unspoken Security, the raw and gritty podcast for security professionals who are looking to understand the most important issues related to making the world a safer place, including intelligence-driven security, risks and threats in the digital and physical world, and discussions related to corporate culture, leadership, and how world events impact all of us on and off our keyboards.

In each episode, host AJ Nash engages with a range of industry experts to dissect current trends, share practical insights, and address the blunt truths surrounding all aspects of the security industry. Hello and welcome to another episode of Unspoken Security. I'm your host, AJ Nash. Spent 19 years in the intelligence community, mostly in NSA. I've been building and maturing intelligence programs in the private sector for, I don't know, 10, 11 years at this point. I'm passionate about intelligence, security, public speaking, mentoring, and teaching. I also have a master's degree in organizational leadership from Gonzaga University. Go Zags! So I continue to be deeply committed to servant leadership. Now, this podcast brings all these elements together with some incredible guests to have authentic, unfiltered conversations on a wide range of challenging topics. This is not your typical polished podcast. My dogs make occasional appearances. In fact, I got one sleeping next to me right now, so We'll see how it goes. It's not the hound, at least. She's the less quiet— she's the quieter of the two here. People will argue and debate on the show. We even swear sometimes. I certainly have been known to. That's all okay. I want you to think of this podcast as a conversation you'd overhear at a bar after a long day at one of the larger cybersecurity conferences. These are the conversations we usually have when nobody's listening. Now today I'm joined by Eric Yoonag. He's EVP of Product and Services at Convergent, which is a global systems integrator focused on delivering results for their customers through unparalleled service excellence. Eric brings 26 years of experience in the security industry, including 16 years as CEO of Dakota Security Systems, followed by nearly a decade now serving in leadership roles in mergers and acquisitions, marketing, innovation, and technology for Convergint. He's currently responsible for evaluating the impact of industry trends on customer requirements and developing strategic technology partnerships and comprehensive solution offerings. Eric, it's a hell of a bio. You've been doing this a long time. You've been around. I know 16 years as a CEO means you've learned a lot along that space, but then this last decade at Conversion sounds like it's been fascinating. Is there anything you want to add to your bio before we start getting into the conversation today?

No, but as I listened to you describe my executive bio, it just strikes me that I shouldn't be old enough to have 26 years of experience in anything, but that's kind of how it goes, I guess. But I would add to that, it is interesting looking back on a quarter century really in a straight line in the career in the systems integration space that I'm really fortunate to have worked with so many good people and had such a long tenure in the single industry that is security systems integration. So I love this. I love the topics around this. I love the way you frame what you do. So I'm looking forward to the conversation.

Yeah, me too. So, you know, let's baseline this for some people who might not know what we're talking about when we say this. You know, what do we mean when we talk about security integration? And what's it about the end-to-end environment that's driving evolution in the security integration landscape right now?

Yeah, it's a good question. It's one of those descriptions. Whenever I say, hey, I, I work in security systems integration, rarely does somebody say, ah, I understand what, I understand what you're saying. And that never really happens. Not at parties, not in none of those reasons, you know, but, but it's, it's really at the end of the day, it's really about the, the delivery, the service, and the optimization of all those electronic security systems that go to deliver security outcomes in physical environments. Convergence is a little bit unique in that regard in the sense that, how we think about integration in general is that we don't make anything. We're not a manufacturer of any kind. We don't make any products, any of those kind of things. What we bring is expertise and capabilities to deliver those physical systems wherever they need to be delivered in the world.

So when organizations get inundated by vendors with all their fantastic marketing and all their great promises and they go, gosh, I'm going to buy all these things. And then none of them work well together, or not always, right? Obviously. But sometimes you buy a bunch of things, you're like, wow, these don't really, these don't plug and play, that's for sure. And, and you gotta get engineering involved and you gotta figure out what's gonna work with what. It sounds like you're, you know, you guys are the guys, or you're one of the people that, that goes, okay, I, I know how to make all these things work together. Either help make them plug together or, or then you work on integration. You know, there's a, there's a middleman technology, right? That fits in between it. That sounds like you, you, among other things, I'm sure this is, you know, simplifying it too much, but no, that's a great way to frame it.

I think, you know, largely, I think it's the benefit of the security integration systems integration space that we don't make anything, meaning when a customer comes to us with a problem to solve, I mean, we have the good fortune to be able to sort of step back and say, well, what is it? What collection of technologies or solutions do we bring together to deliver the right solution, right, that solves those problems in their environment? And so bringing that together sometimes is fairly straightforward, but a lot of times it's difficult because You know, everybody would love to be able to deliver systems into brand new buildings from the ground up with no legacy, you know, no legacy technology or no legacy programs, all those kinds of things. But inevitably organizations grow, they're adding on, they're acquiring all the complexities that come with running, you know, security programs in modern environments. That's where integration really comes into play from a physical systems perspective. Yeah.

You rarely get to show up at the new house, right? You don't have that clean slate. You're almost always showing up and there's something there, I assume. And then, like I said, even if you have a clean slate, you build the company from scratch, you do it all quote unquote the right way, you know, you got all the, and then you buy somebody and then, oh, you know, or you get purchased either way, whatever it is, there's an acquisition, there's a merger. And so, well, now whatever's, now we gotta start all over. We gotta figure it out. We gotta integrate things. Like it's, and mergers, acquisitions, it's a never-ending thing. So nobody has a clean slate for long, I would assume.

No. And, and, you know, you, you, you, you alluded to another dimension of this, which is what's changing about all this right now. And, you know, all those things have been, You know, historically, we touched on my 25 years in this business. You know, they're very static use cases historically, right? You think about access control, intrusion, video surveillance. They weren't very, all that dynamic in terms of the types of technologies and how they were applied. But it is fascinating right now to see this confluence of things that are happening to the security practitioners that we serve. And I think about this in a few different dimensions. You know, just start the things that you're intimately familiar with around just the dynamic nature of the threat landscape. You think about everything that they are navigating, the speed and change in which the threat landscape around their organizations is constantly evolving and they're constantly having to pivot programs and technology capabilities to, you know, respond to those threats and mitigate risks. I mean, that's one thing, and that by itself would be enough. And I think today's environment is definitely different. You think about the stakeholder expectations around these programs, that the expectations of what the security programs are delivering is higher and higher all the time. So the pressures on practitioners that we serve are, is, is very high. You know, the board and executive expectations, reputational protection, the duty of care stuff, all the things that surround that, the expectations are just higher and higher.

Yeah. Well, and it's, and it's dynamic, right? I mean, it's, it's, Yeah, it's not just, you know, there was a time, and it wasn't even that long ago, when it was like, all right, you had a physical security system, right? There's a badge, you put a badge on a reader or a swipe, and you walked in, right? And there was probably someone in an office someplace with some cameras and maybe watch a few things, and it was kind of it. It was like an isolated, you know, environment. But that doesn't happen anymore, right? These, these all have to be integrated, you know. The, the system you have for security tied to your camera system, which is tied to your cybersecurity system, which is tied to your insider threat system, you know, and your executive protection, and all these different components, right? Because you want to get this holistic, ideally at least, you want this holistic security picture for large enterprise. So very few things just live alone, you know, isolated. And if they do, then, then you have problems and you're dealing with stovepiping and now you can't really have the communication you want. Maybe you're paying.

And that's, yeah, that, that element is then further compounded by the, the whole technology modernization theme that's happening now. I mean, it's very easy for us to just say AI, air quotes, right? That, right. That's driving everything. And I know we'll talk more about that, but I'm sure what that's really, what that's really doing at a practical level is causing everybody to step back and look at the systems that make up their infrastructure and say, what things should we be investing in across all those different system types that ultimately deliver AI outcomes to that technology modernization pressure? You have a threat landscape, you have the stakeholder expectations, and that's changing the way all these solutions are being delivered in the marketplace. So, we really just see this confluence of all these things right now at one time crashing down on, you know, the security practitioners in, in the environments that, that, that we work in. So, I, I think it is a unique moment and that, that to me, any one of those things is creates pressures and complexity, but having all 4 of them really accelerating at the same time is fascinating to navigate.

Yeah, I can imagine. It makes for— there aren't a lot of boring days in our industry to begin with, but even less now. Now I'm curious, when you're working in this space right now, I think I know the answer, but I'm going to set up the question anyway. Are you more likely to run into an organization that brings you in because they've recognized they have challenges, either because they've got a lot of technologies that don't work well together, or they've had a merger and acquisition or whatever it is, Or do you get opportunities to come in from scratch and say, hey, we wanna, we, we're new at, you know, we're fresh, clean slate. We wanna build a roadmap. We wanna do it all the right way from the start, even if it means getting rid of everything we have, or we don't have anything yet cuz we're that new as a company, which I guess would be rare. Which is more common? Is it coming in and saying, hey, we gotta fix problems that exist and make things work, or we get a clean slate, we have to start over, or is it somewhere in between?

It rarely is a clean slate, but let's, I wanna answer that in two ways. One is, you know, I, I think, you know, As you know, you know, most organizations of any significant size have a security strategy of some kind. And that strategy may be, we do the minimum possible requirement, right? But that's certainly unacceptable. There's certainly a strategy.

I doubt they write that one down if I'm guessing. Probably not. Probably not.

You know, but changes in that risk environment or threat landscape certainly cause people to reassess what they're doing and how they're doing it. And that happens, I think I would say continually. Seriously, you know, in our, in our case, we serve mostly mission-critical enterprise environments. So, you know, financial, healthcare, oil, gas, energy, utilities, government, defense, those kinds of things, tech, you know, global, global organizations. And they're relatively sophisticated, obviously, in the way they approach that. But I think what's changing today is that there really, there is an increasing posture of, of wanting to step back and say, you know, they probably wouldn't describe it the way I described it about all 4 of those things, but they're feeling something different about this moment and saying, we really need to step back and say, what are we doing the right things? Are we making the right investments? Because I think there is an outsized impact on the decisions made right now relative to unlocking what I would describe as probably a more intelligent security infrastructure in the future. You're not gonna snap your fingers and get there. It's going to take a few budget cycles. It's going to take, you know, some thoughtful decisions today that over the next, you know, 1, 2, 3, 4 years ultimately will transform these environments to be somewhere different. And I think that's the expectation that people are beginning to feel more viscerally than they have in the past where it's all, geez, I hope I have an AI-enabled infrastructure, whatever that means, versus now when they're saying, man, we really need to be making the right decisions with our systems and technology architectures married to the security program outcomes we're trying to deliver and how should we go about pursuing a strategy to deliver those things in the future? So I think that slowing down and pulling back almost has that, hey, let's think about this like we're doing it from scratch in a modern way and then develop a strategy to deliver that in the future.

Yeah. And that makes sense. I mean, it's, you made an interesting point in there. I mean, you made a lot of them obviously, but one I'm going to latch onto is Yeah, the outcome piece, right? I've, I've had a lot of discussions even this week. I've recorded a couple different episodes with different places and, and it comes up repeatedly about business outcomes, right? Whether it's intelligence, whether it's security, whether it's physical or cyber, whatever it is, there's an increasing, and it's been going on for a few years obviously, but there's this increasing push of reminding people, hey, what's the business outcome? What are we trying to accomplish? Which I'm not sure it's gotten better over the years, but there's still been a lot of challenges sometimes of just, hey, we have to do a thing. Without sitting down and saying, why are we doing this? Other than the obvious, hey, you know, we have security because we don't want the bank to get robbed. Okay, we get that. But, you know, why are we doing the specific elements of it? Why are we setting up the specific way? And how does that tie to the business outcome? Justifying your, your costs, right? Return on investment, things like that. And it seems increasingly, especially now as you're talking about this, this more— I want to say complicated, but hopefully eventually simple environment of having all these different elements that are coming together in a more of a holistic security picture. Is what are we trying to accomplish? You know, what, what is the, as you said, the business outcome? There's really no point in spending a ton of money to secure a system that we don't own, for instance, you know, to, to prepare to defend against a threat that isn't our threat. And a lot of organizations have fallen into that trap where they get so interested in, in defending against so many things that, that aren't really relevant to them cuz they didn't do their intelligence requirements. They didn't do their security requirements. They didn't actually do the, the assessment that I'm, I'm gonna gamble guys like you and companies like you are coming in and helping them see. Here's what matters to you and here's what doesn't, and here's how they integrate together. But I'm curious, so let's talk about the market, right? So there's, listen, there's, there's more cybersecurity companies than you can count. I mean, there's hundreds and hundreds of them. There's, it's the same thing in physical security. It's the same thing when you're dealing with hardware, software, whatever it might be. But let's talk about how are the solutions coming to market today? You know, how are they being delivered? What, what are they doing well and what's going poorly when it comes to, to new systems and solutions on the market?

Yeah, I want to touch quickly on something about the, you know, the risk landscape. I think it's interesting because in the several decades I've been doing this, everything is largely a bit reactionary based on the way that people have traditionally delivered systems. I'm speaking from a systems integrator perspective. You know, if you were, if you acquire somebody, you built a new building or you acquired more space, then you just extended whatever system, you know, more, more access control doors, more entry points, all, all those types of things. And what's really emerging is this kind of value chain ecosystem where, look, all those things are still there. I mean, you're gonna need hardware, you're gonna need software, but, you know, fulfillment and security operations and services and how does that integrate with AI and data strategies, really all collaborating around the customer outcomes that are being trying to be delivered. In a much more dynamic and real-time fashion. And that, that's a very interesting process to watch evolve right now because we, we're kind of seeing the fundamental limitations of that traditional linear channel model and much more of a, a dynamic IT-centric kind of a model emerging for, for the systems integration space. I'll, I'll give you a, a practical example of that. If you think about, you know, the, the move to cloud or the modernization of a lot of the, the legacy systems that our industry has leveraged, you know, on-premises. Video surveillance systems, VMSs, and on-premise access control systems, you know, that the relatedness of the hardware that we install, that card reader on the wall or the camera that's hanging on the wall, was very tightly coupled to that, you know, the software system that was there. As those systems begin to move to the cloud, and for all of our benefit, new systems and features or features and capabilities are coming online all the time. How do you coordinate and orchestrate all of the demands that those physical devices now need to deliver to unlock a lot of those capabilities? So if you have, you know, an AI-driven surveillance platform that's hosted in the cloud that needs, you know, a certain amount of pixels or this lighting condition or this coverage of this scene, it's great that you can turn it on in the cloud, but you still have to orchestrate, you know, some movement of physical devices in space. So it's, it's much more dynamic and it's, it's excellent that we're able to bring, you know, new capabilities and new AI-driven features and solutions into the environment. But at the same time, now you're trying to move around, you know, the hardware and the capabilities in, in a way that, that we haven't previously had to orchestrate in that type of a cycle. So lots of complexities there to, to deal with.

Well, yeah. And from a security standpoint, it changes, you know, we continue to evolve, right? As you said, it used to be everything was on-prem. Let's, you know, think dinosaur age for us at this point, right? There's a lot of good and bad that goes with that, right? Everybody knows that if it's on-prem, you have control. That's one of the big advantages of things being on-prem is you have control theoretically of everything, right? It's a closed system. You know where all your data is, you know where all your technology, you, you own everything. If you're compromised, it's somebody had to come to you to, to do it, right? And as we say, well, okay, we're gonna go to the cloud. You know, for a lot of good reasons. There's a lot of advantages to cloud and, and, you know, dynamic, you know, storage and, and speed and all these things. But now you've also said, okay, somebody else is in charge of a big chunk of our security because we've signed some agreements and said, okay, they're going to be in charge of whatever cloud we're using, and now they have responsibilities. But we don't have that insight necessarily, and we don't have access necessarily to know exactly how well they're doing. And we've seen how that's turned out, right, at times. Again, I'm not bagging on cloud, but we've seen lots of stories in the news where somebody gets compromised and it's because there was a S3 bucket that was misconfigured, you know, is, is because somebody who's a third-party vendor that you signed off on didn't do their job as we hoped they would, as they were contractually obligated to do, because human error happens. And then now we, we, we have to eat that, we have to deal with that. So I, I, I wonder in your position, in the position as, as the integrators here, how much more complicated does that make? You have to understand the technologies, all the technologies your customer has, or, or prospect, prospective customer has, all the other potential technologies they could or should have if you want to offer solutions and recommendations, all the intricacies on the other side of those technologies, like, that seems like just an incredible amount of knowledge that's required to be in this, in this position where you are the trusted advisor who is a neutral party, thankfully, but the trusted advisor who's going to give these recommendations. How do you, how do you stay on top of all that?

That's a great question. And it's a great observation. And I would, I would tell you that it's, it is in a a significantly higher level of time and money investment from our perspective on really kind of maintaining that ecosystem of solutions and partners that we provide because it is a fundamentally different set of requirements around, you know, not just the compliance and IT resilience kind of things that you were alluding to, but really also one of the huge things that comes up is really kind of the end user environment data residency requirements that show up particularly in regulated environments. How are those platforms handling, you know, the PII and those things, particularly if they're cross-border and they're international. So that, that never used to, you know, we used to get a box that was shrink-wrapped with a CD in it and we installed the server way back now. But, you know, if you contrast that to where we are today, where you, you think about all of those, the IT resiliency and IT security challenges that need to be fully vetted and understood, but then also the data residency and how do they both want to protect, you know, both their corporate private information, but the employees' private information. And then, but, and then also at the same time, how do they want to use and leverage it for better security outcomes internally? So, it's, it's a much more complex thing to assure really the supply chain, if you will, in, in all those circumstances. And then you overlay with it, particularly in our case, that we work in complex compliance and regulation-driven environments where it has its own set of expectations. And if you think about something like utilities, well, there's aircraft requirements on certain things and cloud, you know, a cloud outcome may be very well desired, or that might be a great way to think about delivering something, but it may be very impractical in, you know, an actual physical substation environment as an example.

Sure.

So, Sure, it is, it is a far greater burden that, that we're trying to bear for our customers to help, you know, vet and understand the complexities of those things. And to say, that's why we don't sell one thing of anything, you know. And sometimes this is difficult for us to manage. So we have, you know, we may have, you know, 7 or 8, you know, the world's largest access control platforms as partners of ours. But there's reasons why fit very well in some environments and other ones fit better in different environments. So it's, I think that's, it's a piece that people are also increasingly recognizing why they need, you know, people like us, not just Convergent, right? But people in our world that are thinking about that differently to help them navigate the complexities that are, that are there in that environment.

Well, yeah, it's virtually impossible, in my opinion, at least, if you get into these complex environments otherwise. So if you don't have integrators, you know, then your options are either A, trust what the vendor tells you. You know, whatever they say, you gotta, you gotta go with their belief cuz they, they're the experts on all their systems. And no, no shot at vendors. I've worked for a whole bunch of 'em over the years. I, most people generally make the effort to be honest, but they're not necessarily completely honest all the time, either by, by design or just because they, they made a mistake or an error or they, you know, there's a lot of complexities. It's easy to get things wrong. So, but you either have to rely on them or internally to your own company, you have to somehow become an expert, do your own market research and it could go on forever. You'll go down rabbit holes you never get out of. And that's only on maybe 1 or 2 technologies. Now try to do it over the 40 or 60 you're trying to integrate. And then a piece you mentioned briefly in passing as we're going through this that I hadn't even thought of yet is all the legal complexities. The laws are, and, and not just US laws, the international laws. You gotta deal with, you know, if, if you're a national company, obviously you gotta deal with GDPR and you gotta deal with, you know, India's got a law and China's got a cyber law. Not that that may matter as much domestically for us. And of course, California's got the laws that they've got that are very similar to GDPR. And so now you have to have general counsel apparently involved in all this stuff, which reminds me, I, I hadn't thought to ask it, but in your process, how much of your stuff has to go back through a legal review? Is that something like would be in your hands or do you actually have lawyers that you also bounce some of this stuff through? Or do you just have all the references?

We have, we have, we have a team that, that helps us vet and onboard partners that we resell. So this, that's a, that's a big part of it. The understanding of sort of what our, contractual relationship is so that we are able to then, you know, properly inform our customers on all the complexities of that. That's a huge part of what we do. Having clarity at the federal level on what the guidelines are around some of these things would really help the adoption of what I think are really meaningful technologies. You know, understanding we have to navigate, you know, privacy issues and all those kinds of things, like we always do with this type of technology, but there are some meaningful things that are helpful in saving lives and limiting loss to property that, that I don't think are being deployed nearly as much as they would be if there was clarity at the federal level on how some of this stuff would work.

Yeah, I think that's, that's a really valid point. I attended a briefing not that long ago. I have it here locally. It's besides Twin Cities. There was a lawyer who was actually the closer for the entire event and everybody wants, you know, the last person to speak before dinner to be the lawyer. But, but he did, he was actually really entertaining and he, and actually he's a, a, a professor in the Dakotas, one of the universities out there. And I, I would call him out by name if I could remember.

Maybe DSU, they have a, they have a really powerful—

I'll check it out and see who it was. I cannot remember who it was. But anyway, it was a very interesting presentation and he talked about exactly this, the, the fractured legal situation. Every state's a little bit different. And we were trying to talk through, what do you do then? How do you make sure you're compliant? Ultimately, the answer was, well, you just figure out which one's the most, you know, stringent and decide to, to live to that requirement. You probably are covered on all of them, but it was the same concept of, you know, what's the answer gonna be? People don't love hearing about regulation, but sometimes the solution's gonna have to be there. Otherwise you're gonna be navigating through just a myriad of problems. And like you said, some of them will conflict with one another. Now I'm compliant in this state, but now I'm not in this state. And how do you make that work? So it's, you know, it's, it's, this is all new frontier, right? We're all trying to figure it out. I think there's gonna have to be more regulation and, and continuity of regulation at some point as, as we get through it. Because as a company, you just, I mean, maybe you're gonna be in a position as a company where you just go, hey, listen, you know, we end up on the wrong side of the law at some point, but we're able to prove best effort, right? Due diligence and, you know, malice is, is something that does come into play sometimes. If you can prove, hey, we did everything we could, but the comp— it was very, very complicated. We're trying our best to get it right. And at least, you know, then it's like, all right, get yourself compliant. But you know, we're not gonna hit you with massive, you know, fines and penalties. It, it's gonna be all, all sorts of legal issues, I would imagine, which makes things just all the more challenging. Cause people are just trying to do good work, you know, they're trying to figure out how to get the best. Outcomes, as you said.

You know, and I, look, I, I think public privacy and personal privacy are, are enormously important things for us to protect as a country. And, and obviously, it's, it's always a continuum on, you know, safety and privacy. We, we know those balance between one and the other. But I'll give you, just, you know, listeners, a little, just one, maybe one practical example of this. We worked with a, a large multi-state retailer. We don't do a lot in retail, frankly, but, but for big complex ones where our ability to navigate a lot of the things we just talked about, plus sort of program and, and program management and to be able to deploy these things consistently.

Sure.

We're piloting a, a facial recognition technology in our stores that had kind of two use cases for. One was largely to drive a better actual shopping experience, to be able to do recognize VIP shoppers, this kind of thing, but then also obviously loss prevention. And in the loss prevention use case, they were essentially comparing it against local law enforcement, and loss prevention. And when people would go to the store that were on that list, then they would just put LP people on them and follow them around. And the, and the, in the pilot and the stores that ran massive reduction in loss prevention. It was a store that had tens of millions of dollars in annual loss, all these kinds of things. And significant, but we're unable to actually roll out the program because of, in, in more than half of the states that they operate within, there was either prohibition of that type of technology and/or total lack of clarity on how it would be treated if they made that investment in the state.

Sure.

So both delivering an operational outcome for their store to drive revenue, I mean, that's a, and then also, you know, limiting shoplifting and loss prevention in that environment. So it, it's just a good example of, look, and there's again, complex issues around that, but that, that's an interesting place where you say either, well, look, it's either Holistically, it's illegal or there's constraints around it or it's legal everywhere. You could make a decision one way or the other instead of sort of, you know, you're spending money and trying to make decisions and very difficult to move forward. So hard to see innovation come forward in that space in a responsible way when there's that lack of federal clarity on how it's being handled. So I think—

Yeah, exactly. No, that's a, that's a great example. Like you said, that's a business outcome that they would be very much want and appreciate, but you can't put it forward because of, you know, other concerns that just haven't been It's just too much gray area and they don't want to end up, you know, in the wrong side of the law. Now I will say, I mean, obviously you didn't get this far down the path with them. I would also add that they probably should take a look at their brand risk if you go down that path. If that word gets out, that's going to be very unpopular with a lot of people, which I'm sure they'll take into account. Everybody does. And you know, they'll have to do their own math to say, is the, is the loss prevention, you know, value higher than the, you know, brand hit? Or do we find a way around it? Because people are going to scream and yell about profiling and about bias and about all sorts of things, which are valid arguments and complaints and concerns to have. Technologies have shown some of these things. So Very complicated, but, but an interesting use case, I think, is the more important piece that you've pointed out. There's this really cool technology that could do a lot of good things that even tested out well, but ultimately the fractured legal landscape right now left them going, well, we can't, we can't deploy this thing yet. So that'll be interesting to see.

I do, I do think what is one, one thing that we're touching on there is what is increasingly a beyond security use case for a lot of this technology that's emerging. And I think it is helping pull the security use cases forward. And in that example, you know, I was talking about shopper experience, essentially. But it's surprising to me in the last 3 years how often in corporate environments and other environments, both the customer experience and the employee experience is becoming part of that. And what use cases can we also unlock with investments in new technology that both improve security, but then also improve either a customer experience or employee experience that helps with driving revenue or retaining and recruiting employees. What does that look like? You know, multi-uses of technology to do things. And I think that's helping to just create more and more gravity to say, hey, we need clarity on how to adopt these technologies so that we can do overtly good things for the environments that people want to see move forward. And so I think that's helping. I just, I mean, it's a complex, thorny issue that, you know, lowly systems integrators of the world are not going to solve the legal ramifications of all that. But our job is to navigate it and help our customers navigate those things. In a way that makes them, you know, compliant and allows them to build a roadmap that, that brings the right technologies forward at the right time.

Yeah. And, and while the integrators may not solve the problem, you guys are in— I hate using the word unique, but I will, I guess— in sort of a unique, uniquely beneficial position, right? In that you're neutral and that you're in the middle of all of this, right? So you're seeing all the different technologies and all the different legal concerns all around the world, the nation if not the world. And so you'll have a The integrators of the world are gonna have a, a wider understanding, a, a wider lens, a bigger picture. And, and while an individual organization, whether they're the vendor side, whether they're a customer side, even whether they're a government entity in a state, they're gonna see their piece. But integrators are more than likely gonna be able to see close to, if not entirely, the whole picture. Because, because of just the diverse environments. Now again, if you're limited to specific industries, maybe you have some blind spots, but across the integrator industry itself, it seems like you guys are gonna actually be in a really unique position to offer the best insights on how to close a lot of these gaps because you're gonna run into the most problems. That's just where you sit in the, in the ecosystem.

It is interesting because, you know, I, I sometimes I describe our industry a little bit as the, the guys that are, you know, trucks and ladders and, you know, technology guys behind server racks and all the things that we do, probably program and deliver, you know, but, but, but it's, it's interesting to see how many people are, are coming to us asking a lot for benchmarking now in these areas. What would help us understand what peer cohorts are doing? What are other people? Because we do, we have the good fortune of being, having grown to a size where we have so many customers that span lots of industries and all around the world. And, you know, being able to speak into what do we see other people doing? We don't have all the answers always, obviously, but we work with really smart customers and collaborating with them to deliver solutions in really hard to serve environment or difficult to secure environments. Helps us inform that, but it wasn't something I don't think that people were quite as collaborative or upfront on in the past. People are a little bit more protective of that now. And it seems like there's, there's a more of an appetite to say, hey, let's talk about, you know, sort of best practices and benchmarking in peer cohorts and even in competitive, you know, industries. It seems like there's more and more of an appetite to, to be talking about that. So I think it speaks to your point. Like there's, there are there are places in the industry where there are unique points of view and being able to engage those really does help people at a time where there is exceptional change right now. And people are looking for that, you know, thought leadership or trusted advisor kind of ecosystem where you can get good advice on how to make good investments that are going to put you in a different place to do programs in the years ahead.

Yeah. I mean, that trusted advisor piece, you know, I've been in that role in a couple of different companies for different reasons. I've run into that term a lot and there's a lot of value in that. The trust obviously is the big component, but There's a lot of value in that because, and that's why integrators are, are so important because you're in a position and, and let's, let's be fair, it's, this is how business works. Integrators can be that way because you've got relationships with a lot of different vendors, right? That's the idea is build all these partnerships. So ultimately the integrator wins no matter what. And that's fine cuz the, from the customer standpoint, you can go, okay, I know he's gonna tell me the truth because whether it's company A, B, C, or D that he recommends, they're gonna get paid either way. So they don't have a reason to tell me differently. And I make the assumption that, you know, you're not being motivated by one of those companies, you know, with, a better, you know, pay plan or some of those other things. Obviously putting that stuff aside for a minute for those listening and watching who are gonna go, wow, what about this? Yeah, I know. I know there's complications here. I'm trying to simplify it. But the point is it does put you in the best position to be those trusted advisors. And these companies need that because they just wanna get the right answer and they're not gonna be able to be the experts. So again, that's why it's so important to have integrators who have a large, you know, a, a stable of, of relationships, of partnerships You know, if an integrator comes in and they've got 2 or 3 partnerships, I may be questioning unless, unless it's a specific segment of industry where those are really the only, you know, players, I'd be questioning a little bit because obviously they're going to, no matter what they're gonna do, their recommendation's gonna be from their stable of, of partnerships. Whereas if they say, hey, I've got, you know, 250 tech integration partners, you know, like, oh, well, pretty much anybody in the industry I might want, they know about. So now I can just talk to them and I trust they're gonna put me in the right position that they get my requirements and we can, we can have a discussion that leads to the right place.

Yeah.

I'll just say that cause I know that's, that's biasing against the small and mid-sized integrators, sorry guys, but I do understand the value of having a large stable of partnerships.

Well, I think, I think that the place that really separates itself is in big integrators that also are manufacturers, you know, in our world, you know, some of our largest, and look, we work with both companies as well. It's just a different way of thinking too. Like we've made a very intentional strategic choice to never get into the product business because I think this is definitively true. And I don't say this out of pride or ego or anything. I think we're definitively the largest independent security integrator that makes nothing in the world. Like, we don't, we're not a manufacturer. We don't make cameras. We don't make sensors.

Sure.

None of that. Because it does keep us in a posture of saying, what is the best technology? And we'll bring that together. I'll tell you where that, where there's friction in that. And it goes back to a bit of the marketplace evolution and what's changing right now. You know, you think about some of the largest customer environments in the world, the way that they buy security sometimes gets in the way of everything you just described.

And I've seen some of that too. I've dealt with some procurement organizations and once it's gotten to the point where there's an RFP, once they're past, you know, all their other thinking, good luck getting them to rewind that stuff because it's embarrassing and it's time consuming.

Right. It's not the procurement department's job to assess like the effectiveness of this solution against the security requirements. That's not what they're there for. And so once it reaches that point, look, we've influenced a lot, worked with a lot of organizations that develop good and thoughtful procurement processes and we participate and we win some, we lose some, right? That's, that's that. That's the business. I think to me, back to sort of the role of the integrator, I think the integrator, we all make this, we don't make anything, thus we're all selling the same thing. So, you know, if it's a certain brand of camera that we sell, like, everybody sells the same brand. Like, nothing I do with that necessarily is, is different. It's really how I think about applying it, you know, the, the, the programs and services that we put around that to make sure that that solution is both delivered effectively, it's managed and available through the lifecycle that's there, and then it's ultimately effective at delivering the outcome that we've, you know, thought through that is trying to deliver in that environment. If we do those well, that's where I think integrators compete on their merits on helping that solution really get delivered, you know, be available and be effective in the environment. Those are the three things that we think about, you know, really doing well that if we can, if we can deliver that to an end user, then I think we've done our job, right, to effectively help them deliver outcomes in their environments.

Yeah, absolutely. Now listen, let's look ahead for a second. All right. So we've talked about what the industry looks like and the complications of the industry and what's working well and some of the things that are challenges there. Let's also look ahead a bit. What do you see as technologies, as they're evolving and integrating, what do we see coming up over the horizon? Obviously, this is where we talk a lot about AI, I'm sure. But, you know, how do you see the evolution and integration in the next few years?

Yeah, I look, I think the headline on this for me really is, is around a move towards, you know, intelligent security, security intelligence. And that, that sounds a bit cliché, but from a systems perspective, I think that's really what's happening here. You see that a really a, a macro technology modernization move that's happening right now. So that in, in the next, you know, 3 to 5 years, fundamentally, the capabilities of these systems in combined totality are going to deliver a much more real-time and informed set of intelligence outcomes than they have in the past. I think so that, so that's a bit of the headline there. Not, that's not kind of the underlying trends. I think, you know, the, the pieces that make up, make that up are really the move towards platform-type capabilities, meaning move away from siloed premise-based systems to more platform modernization where, you know, IoT technologies and real-time, you know, data integrations to other sources, all of that stuff. That's a fundamental rewiring of a lot of the security systems in the world today. We have a lot of hardwired proprietary protocols that exist in, in this space, and, and a move towards a more unified modern technology architecture is setting the table to unlock a lot of that. So we see a lot of that. There's a whole series of priorities around credentials and identity assurance, and we see this a lot. You go into really any major facility in the world that's kind of a base building, and you still see a lot of legacy card technologies and old card formats that are really unsecure. You know, the upgrade of all that infrastructure and the move towards secure multifactor wallet credentials on mobile devices, and that is a huge theme right now. Everybody wants that user experience of a frictionless credential in wallet on Apple and Google and Samsung devices. That requires a whole modernization of technology. That's a big priority. I mean, not only is it kind of real-time issuance and revoking of credentials in environments, it's also different types of use cases on those credentials. Real-time multifactor is possible when you have a digital credential. So there's a lot around both the modernization of the credential and then the unification of identities. I mean, we can do an entire podcast on identity and identity management and really—

I've done some.

I'm sure you have.

Yeah.

The unification of logical and physical credentials, and that is a huge area of intersection with physical systems right now. That whole identity and credential world is a big one. You know, we talk quite a bit more about autonomous platforms now. You know, and this, this is a big rat hole still to discuss sometimes around, you know, drone and tech and, you know, humanoid robots being essentially extensions of surveillance infrastructure. That's really how we describe it. And look, there are— that's not ready for real time, but some of it is beginning to be pretty effective at augmenting man-guarding capabilities for, you know, guard patrols and this kind of thing. And in a lot of environments, even the anti-drone technology to, you know, if you're a substation or a corrections facility, how to mitigate, you know, drone from a detection and all that perspective. So the whole autonomous category is a big one. You know, AI and visual intelligence is an enormous area of investment, I think, for companies right now. And that's the, that's really the, the the one that I think has the most interesting use case applications across and beyond security. Not only does it make your security fundamentally smarter, you know, the ability to query and do all of the visual AI stuff that you can do, but bringing online a lot of other, you know, operational and, you know, customer use cases in, in different environments is a really powerful thing to do. And I, we talk about it all the time about if you're making a decision now to spend money on, on cameras and surveillance, you should really take just a beat for a second and talk to other areas in your organization and say, what would it look like for us to begin to invest in a visual intelligence infrastructure? And, and I say that intentionally because not only does that make your security better, but how else might that data contribute to other, your BI, your business intelligence data in other areas of the business? 'Cause it rationalizes better investments and more investments and more cameras and more, that you might be able to leverage in other places. So that, that's a huge area that we think about. And then the last part of it's really just around situational awareness and decision intelligence. I think when you stack all those technologies up and you begin to think about the unification and overlay of good AI platforms and the unification of that technology, you're fundamentally able to make better security decisions and respond to threats in a more real-time fashion to the things that are true threats and not just the mass of false alarms that our industry has been buried in for, you know, for 50 years. So those, those 5 or 6 things I think are the, are the things that we talk about the most and we hear the most from people saying, you really need to have a plan in those areas to modernize your infrastructure because you don't want to wake up. Your bosses don't want to wake up in 5 years and be like, why is our, why do we have the only security infrastructure along, but is not delivering much more of an intelligent AI-enabled set of capabilities. Nobody can do that overnight. I mean, that's the thing that I think we've really begun to navigate differently is it takes a kind of a thoughtful multi-year approach to say what investments can you make when, in what priority, that ultimately you will get to a point in the next, you know, number of budget cycles that you'll have a technology infrastructure that you really can step back and say, this is fundamentally different than what it was before. It is providing us that, you know, kind of intelligent security outcomes that we're looking for.

Well, yeah. I mean, you're talking about, you know, systems of systems and to get to a holistic viewpoint, right? Where it's everything coming together into one place and being able to say, well, I understand all the implications from the physical cyber and cybersecurity and, you know, the customer experience if you have customers and the employee experience and the business intelligence and the, you know, the competitive intelligence, all that. It's, it's like I said, systems of systems, which is, you know, where we've been heading for a while between, you know, big data and then AI being laid on top of this stuff. Now, you know, things that get to the point of you just aren't gonna be able to do these things as we used to in the old ways because people couldn't process it that we couldn't process that much data. We can process it that fast, certainly. And now you're gonna just really process, you know, X number of, you know, multiples of data in, in, you know, so much less time. I, I do want to ask one thing. I, I heard you use a term I haven't heard used before actually, so I'm curious. You were talking about visual intelligence. Is, are we just talking about imagery essentially? It's, I've never heard it uses that term. So it's kind of an interesting concept.

Is it? Yeah. I, I use that term a lot and I should probably explain it. I know the way I, I think I personally think about it is we've really reached a point in human history where anything we can see, we can turn into data. That's a really, that's a really, and I think that's just factually true now, but it's a really interesting thing to step back and think about for a second. And, you know, that means that our security will absolutely be better cuz the cameras can, we can query natural language, anything that we want to know about. I need to see the person in the, in the red jacket with the white backpack at this time, you know, exiting at night. And then, you know, we're gonna surf on that data.

Oh, as opposed to, you mean just scanning through 62 hours of, of videotape to look? Cuz that's how it used to be. Hey, I know sometime this happened. You're like, oh great, I'm gonna spend all my days in a quiet room figuring it out. I hadn't even thought about it till you said it though. It's a great point. Now you can have AI and say, hey, listen, you know, AI is gonna be able to scan the, the, you know, cameras, right? The footage, that kind of thing. And like you said, you can give a natural language description and it'll be able to go tell you, yeah, here's, you know, 12 time hacks where something similar to that was. You can just go look at those. I hadn't even thought about how much faster you'll be able to search through visual content. Yeah.

All of the investigative accelerants that are coming with that are, are very much happening.

Mm-hmm.

Right? I think the, the, the visual intelligence idea is really that if you think about that and describe it to the, to your leadership in an organization, if you're a an end user and say, yes, you know, we need to make— this is always a cost center, right? Security. And we need to make investments in our security infrastructure to unlock the things we just talked about. But how might we use those cameras as a visual intelligence infrastructure for the whole business?

Mm-hmm.

What else might we be seeing in these environments that we could turn into data and use it in other areas of the business? I think this is the, this is the construct that to me is really becoming interesting. And some of our smartest end users in the security space are really getting significantly higher budget allocations to these activities because of this thinking. So just if you step back for a second and think, if I'm the CEO of a company and I really kind of internalize this idea of visual intelligence and anything we can see, we can turn into data. Well, what might I want to know about my environment. Is this, you know, if I'm a, if I'm a retail or a bank organization and I have cameras in a bank and I see queue lines and I'm able to turn wait time, visual wait times into data for branch management. Yep. What else might I wanna know? I, I, it, it, it's just really interesting to begin to think about, you know, let's, let's get investments from marketing and let's, let's get investments from, you know, operations on, you know, helping us build out a, visual intelligence infrastructure that of course is going to make our security better. But oh, by the way, we can also leverage that visual data for other things, right? So it's certainly an emerging world, but it's a bit of the beyond security opportunity to reframe the capabilities of these systems as providing value to other parts of the business.

Well, yeah, you just triggered a memory for me, not necessarily a positive version of this, but What's that?

It's not Vikings related, is it?

It's not Vikings. No. God, no. I think it's very interesting. I hadn't thought about it though. They, you could do that with all sorts of retail organizations to figure out efficiencies, right? Always to make it more efficient, more effective. Not about trying to punish employees, which I sadly think companies will do. But the flip side is saying, hey, how do we make the experience better for the consumer? When, listen, when I get to the coffee shop, if you tell me you use technology and you turn my consistent 12 minutes, you know, wait time in the morning into 2 minutes, I'm gonna love that. Right. And so is everybody else. And so you're going to more people coming in. And so that's a good example of here's cameras were designed for security, which, as you said, is a cost center. It's always, you know, you got to manage those costs. But now if you say, hold on, it's not just a cost center, what if we're able to improve your efficiency by, you know, X percent? And as a result, your revenues are going to go up, you're going to more repeat business, you have happier customers, all these things. And you go, well, geez, now it's not just a cost center, it's actually saving us money at the same time as it's protecting our business and maybe cutting down on inventory loss or whatever, you know, whatever you use the system for. And that's that multi-use approach you're talking about. So I think that's very interesting.

And it, it has a compounding effect because not only does it make a case for more cameras and provide essentially more budget area to allocate those cameras, you, you are fundamentally driving different outcomes. I, I'll give you one more example. The retailer was thinking about this high-density camera concept in a retail, a big box retail store for two reasons. One, obviously better, you know, loss prevention and, you know, slip and fall and litigation, all the things that happen in there. But then from a visual intelligence perspective, well, what might we do to more closely mirror the online experience that we have or compete with online retailing for all the things that we do, you know, on, on web, right? So if you think about e-commerce, right, you go to a website, it, it tracks, it knows you're there, right? It knows How many visitors were there? How many converted through a shopping cart checkout?

Sure. Sure.

I can apply all that logic to a physical environment and begin to optimize and understand all of that from this person came in. Did they exit through an exit door or they exit through a cash register?

Like, so you want to change your floor plan design? You can change all sorts of things on how you set up your entire stores. Really?

Yeah. They were actually thinking about can we create a gesture that would be recognizable via visual intelligence and AI? That would summon help rather than having people wandering the stores. Like, oh, could you do some unique, you know, brand-related gesture that all— yeah, that only someone help you. I think it would take that to get somebody in some of those stores. But to me, I think that this is a unique moment in time where there is new value to be unlocked, created, and good rationale to invest additional money in systems and capabilities that ultimately will benefit the business in a lot of different ways. Not just transform, as if that's small, not just transform to an intelligent security infrastructure.

Well, yeah, if you've got rabbit holes and silos, you're not, you're not gonna be able to do this, obviously. So having that bigger picture is, is really important. And, and that's a, a huge takeaway from this. I think that's really interesting. I hadn't thought about it, obviously, coming into this conversation. And I think that's a fascinating takeaway on, on the value of integrators and the value of these technologies and where we're going in these, you know, these dual-use capabilities. So listen, we're, we're running short on time, as I always am. I'm always running over. But I, I wanna thank you first for being here. I'll thank you again at the end anyway, but thank you for being here and, and for having this discussion. It's, it's fascinating. I think it's really interesting and it's nice to see where, where people are going with this and, and the complications in technology. It's good to have experts, unbiased experts in the middle there that can help make sure people are getting the solutions they need for those business outcomes. But as we get to the end of the show, you know, the name of the show's Unspoken Security. As you know, this is no longer a gotcha question. I've been doing this long enough. Everybody knows the question's coming. But as you know, the name of the show being Unspoken Security, I ask every guest the same thing at the end, which is tell me something you've never told anybody before, something that so far has been unspoken.

Oh man. That's it. A couple things popped into my mind that this, this one might make me sound crazy.

You won't be the first one.

It was, it was because it, it speaks to the integrator world and it, it also speaks to kind of how I think about security in general. But I, when I, I sold my business at Convergint almost, it was 10, actually 10 years ago next month. So it's been nearly a decade and I love what I do. I love being an integrator. I love, you know, my people and customers and all those kinds of things. And I was really struggling with the idea of, you know, taking kind of a left turn on what I thought. And in that process, I actually sent my family up to Minneapolis to see my father-in-law, take my kids out of the house. I'm like, I just got to think. And I, and the thing that I decided that I was going to do, and I don't know really where this came from, is I was going to have dinner with myself. And I was going to put a mirror at the other end of the table and I was really going to order food. And then I was going to ask myself questions out loud and really just hear myself rationalize out loud, you know, what it is about how I was going to serve my customers, all the things. And if you've ever, if you think you can lie to yourself in your head, there's no chance to do it out loud. So I spent there for almost an hour and a half and just, I had a whole list and I just, I made myself do it out loud. I asked myself questions. I, I was pretty happy with most of 'em, but a handful I'm like, I don't know about that one.

So this could have been a good use for cameras, by the way. I would've liked to seen the visual data, the, the visual intelligence on the, on this conversation.

Now that, now that that's 10 years in the, in the rearview mirror now, I feel like the statute of limitations is up on me talking about that.

So I can, I can, I actually, listen, I think it's fascinating. You said it's gonna make you sound crazy and I, I could see somebody saying that, but I also think it's a fascinating concept, you know, we talk about introspection, which most people do a terrible job of. I mean, you, you went to the extreme. You didn't just do it, but as you said, it's easy to lie to yourself, but it's really hard to lie to yourself if you stare at yourself in a mirror, right? And, and a chance to, to hold yourself accountable, a chance to see what you look like when you tell these stories or when you, you give these pitches to other people. I, I think it's brave if I'm gonna be honest. I think it's brave you told me too, by the way.

Oh, nice.

I, I think it's, I think it's brave. I hate looking at mirrors for all sorts of things.

Yeah.

So I, I would probably have a very short dinner with myself if I had done it that way. I think it's fascinating.

I think it does. It probably isn't just me though. I think it speaks to a lot of integrators out there. Look, I believe what we do is important and take it really seriously. And I, it's one of those things where you can very easily be distracted by the noise around it or a financial outcome or whatever was going on there. And I, to me, there was a lot more at stake with that. It's like, how do we serve our customers? I thought was really important and unique. And the people that go do that work every single day that were on, employees and colleagues of mine and the people that we serve and the industries that we serve and, you know, all the impacts of that stuff. So I think, you know, it kind of comes full circle about what do animators do. And, you know, I think there's, there's, there's a certain expectation that what we do helps you do what you do better and, you know, security outcomes in your environment. So it's a privilege to do that. And, you know, it was fun having this conversation, talk a little bit about it.

Yeah, no, I appreciate it. I think, by the way, you made a very wise decision, I think, in shipping the family out of the house before you had that little experience. I suspect that would've been hard to witness without a lot of caution.

Probably.

Yeah.

I, I think mirror is a good indication that that was the right— yeah.

If I walk in and find my partner at a table with a mirror on the other end having a conversation, I'm, I'm, that's gonna be a very interesting follow-up. So I think it was wise of you to ship people out so you could have that clean experiment. But, but no, I think it's fascinating actually. I, I'm gonna, I'll probably ponder that a bit. I, I doubt I'll be able to replicate it, but I do think it's an interesting idea and I'm glad you shared it. I think it's something that's, you know, that's important. It shows how much you care about this, how much you wanted to do a good job and, and we're willing to hold yourself accountable in what's kind of an uncomfortable, but, you know, unique concept. So I appreciate you, you know, coming in and chatting about it. Before we jump out, is there anything last things you want to add? Anything you want to plug in? Anything you want to talk about? Obviously we only have a minute or whatever, but anything you want to plug before we, you know, close out the show?

No, I'm not a plug guy, but I just want to thank you for having me on and having the conversation. It's fascinating. I love conversations like this where you can step back a little bit and just, you know, talk about what's important and how it fits together and really what's changing. I think, it is very much a unique moment in the world now. And the confluence of all this thing right now that's coming down on kind of the heads of, of our, of the end users in the world is different. And, you know, I think a lot of us have, have, who have a microphone, right? Have, have a chance to kind of raise the awareness on a lot of that stuff and, and challenge some of the status quo and how things are done and the way systems are delivered and, you know, how we all collaborate to deliver those security outcomes in these environments. So, I love the conversation and thanks for setting it up.

Yeah, man. Thanks for having me, having me have you, I guess. That's how it works out. But, you know, thanks for, thanks for, I think your people actually reached out first to be fair. So I appreciate it and, and it's been a really good time. So listen, for everybody who's been listening or watching, again, thank you. Obviously this is all about, you know, really the, the audience and the guests. I'm just, you know, herding cats around here. But the, the goal is to make sure people have things, you know, that are, they have content here or dogs. Yeah. In my case, you're right. But I wanna make sure people have content that is, you know, interesting and informative and educational., you know, and hopefully a little fun as well. So thanks for everybody who takes the time to listen and watch. You know, please feel free to subscribe, share that information with others. We could always use more people that are interested in the show. If you like what's going on, you know, that's great. You know, if you don't, tell me anyway, I guess. I, I want feedback from everybody so we can be better about it. But, you know, feel free to reach out and, and let me know so we can keep doing it and keep subscribing and keep watching. And we'll keep trying to put great people like Eric out in front of you so you can learn more. So with that in mind, I'm gonna go ahead and close this one out for today. Again, thank you, Eric. Thank you everybody who listens and watches. This has been another episode of Unspoken Security.

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