Ep. 15 - GarageBand Isn't Just a Garage Band with Branden Rogers | Devs:After Dark

Also, developers after dark. Is this? Are we supposed to be filming now? Is it supposed to be?

Listen, listen.

I know when you say words like that, it kind of like the magic's gone.

Thanks, man.

The viewer count just dropped. It's gone now. You just you review.

Yeah, it feels a little disingenuous.

That's all. There, beautiful.

Beautiful fade in. Beautiful. Music is better every time.

Love it.

It does. I like— I mean, I— when I heard that track, I was like, that's, that's one we got to keep.

Very good.

Well, here we are, episode 15 of Developers After Dark, the only podcast and website you will ever need. I know Dennis is— Dennis is always amazed that it's, it's like you actually know what you're doing.

You can—

my banner skills. Yeah, well, it's out of complete necessity because I don't want to look like I don't know what I'm doing, like fully. Like normally I don't know what I'm doing, but to look at and not— and show it at the same time, it would be embarrassing. So yeah, no, I learned the banners in between.

Well played. Well done.

Yeah, thank you. Thank you. And plus, I'm representing you two too. So if I sink, I'm going to pull you guys with me. Absolutely. And blame you as well. So I might as well— For my life.

So it's OK. Yeah.

I might as well try to do a good job. But yeah, no, here we are, episode 15, Developers After Dark. Thank you, everyone who watches and who is attending live today. Dennis, I do believe we are also streaming on YouTube.

Yeah, we're on the YouTubes. You know, Brandon, Brandon's an important figure on, on the YouTubes. Um, he's constantly in the top 3 to 4, uh, videos played. As a matter of fact, if you don't mind, uh, I want to just go ahead and throw this onto the screen if I can.

Yes, please.

Are you grabbing the thumbnail?

Oh, I certainly am. I—

that is one of the, the first times I ever was aware of Brandon's existence. It was Uh, if this is the thumbnail I'm thinking of, this is— yes.

I mean, this, this is when, uh, our YouTube channel started blowing up. This is, this is the gold right here. This is the gold.

You can look at the, you can look at the Google Analytics and it literally, it's just the day that was posted. It just went like up and to the right.

We have a little limb and basically say all the viewership is due to the thumbnail and has nothing to do with the content.

It's very true. No, that's very true. No, yeah, that was, uh, that was one of the first times I had ever seen— I— because when I was talking with Dennis, when I went to go put a couple of videos up, I told him, I was like, we should do, you know, I'll find some funny pictures or something. I'll find something where he's like, he's like, yeah, you can try, but there's, there's one that you'll never, you know, not even knowing that it exists. He's like, there's one that you'll never beat. And as soon as I saw it, I'm just like, I mean, I'm ready for second place. That's fine. I'm, I'm absolutely ready for second place. So it is, um, but it was fantastic. Before we get started, let me do a couple of— a little bit of housekeeping and pay a couple of bills. For right now, if you haven't already, if you wanna watch any back episodes or you wanna watch any videos, especially the one that we just showed with the greatest thumbnail in the history of YouTube, Oh my God. you will, of course, need to go to the HubSpot Developers at our YouTube channel, and you can check all of that out as well as plenty of other episodes of this show and videos from Brooke, who's on our team as well in DevRel and a lot of other things, very educational. I learned a lot of stuff just getting— when I first got to HubSpot, that was like the place I spent most of my time just trying to learn everything. And still, even to this day, there's still things that I still wanna catch up on. So do yourself a favor if you haven't already and go check that out. If you wanna know just what's happening in HubSpot in general, you should definitely check out the changelog. That is one of the things at hubspot.com or developers.hubspot.com/changelog. where you will find everything that you need to know about what's going on currently. Right now, if you want, if you haven't caught this one already for our developer events, for our dehugs, you just missed, I believe, Dennis, it was the AI and the future with Replit. That was one that just posted.

Replit just went on and coming up next, SJ and team are taking over the developer hug and doing something. It's gonna be SJ, Hannah, Brooke, and a couple of other people that I'm totally forgetting about, and I apologize for that. But they're coming up. And then followed by that is gonna be one on the AI series again with Postman. They have a new product coming out, and we're gonna talk all about that as well.

Right. That's the Building Careers in HubSpot Development, Bridging the Gap.

Is that the name? Nailed it. You got it. Yep. There you go.

See? Look, look who's actually paying attention. I've, you know, I'm trying, Dennis. I'm trying. And then last but not least, if you haven't already, go to academy.hubspot.com to learn About just about everything, right? So you've got inbound marketing, you've got SEO. Those are some of the ones I've taken. The SEO one, I highly recommend it. But yeah, if you haven't already, go check that out. That even some of our friends, AJ, remember we were talking with some of our friends online and they were asking about the academy and just had no idea that some of these things were like you could just go and do it. There wasn't like a barrier to entry. It's like you can actually like they thought you had to pay for most of this stuff, and it was like no, no, you can. Go to the Academy. Like, you can learn, like, right away. So it's one of those things where if you haven't already, check that out. And plus too, a little, uh, little side tip, uh, having these accreditations in the Academy also show up. Like, if you're a provider in the Marketplace, you can get, like, for asset providers, for example, right? Like, the accreditations that you get are actually shown on your listing page for you as the provider. So you get, uh, there is a, there's a bonus to some of these things too, not just for people In the marketplace. But again, outside the marketplace too, you also get to learn. So with that said, um, those are the bills and those are paid. Uh, um, I was looking back and I don't think there was any corrections that we had to make from the last episode. So that, that was really good.

I had to take AJ's stuff out pretty much altogether. So there's no—

Did you have to edit out a lot of stuff?

Yeah, it's just unfortunate.

They go along. It's for, for Brandon and those that aren't aware, uh, we do, uh, every once in a while, like, we have, uh, these little things where we like to call each other out. Um, like, for example, For example, the 800-pound elephant that I mentioned, that is not even a turn of phrase.

No.

But I think there was an Isaac's episode where it was like we had to mention something about it the next episode because it was such a ridiculous statement that comes— like a lot of things I say sometimes are a bit ill-informed, I guess. So like being on YouTube for the first time this week, let's see how long it takes for me to get banned. You know, nevertheless, we, we do like John.

Watch the next one so I can, I can see you guys correcting everything I say in this one.

No, no, no, no, that's the thing. It's not that— to be clear, it is not the guests. The guests, there's never anything like— it is the dumb stuff that I typically say, and then AJ when it comes to like music and things like that of, uh, culture.

I've got free rein. Got it.

Yeah, yeah, there's no— there's never really any. It's like that we know the guests that we have on here are far more intellectually superior than we are. We're just, we're just We're literally 3 dumb animals that are just having fun.

So it's barely that.

Barely that.

Yeah.

But without further ado, let me— Brendan, why don't you introduce yourself? Tell everybody who you are and what you do.

Sure. Yeah. I mean, first of all, thanks for having me on. I'm super excited. Dennis told me before we joined that this is the top-rated podcast in the world.

Yeah. Yeah. No lie.

So I feel pretty honored.

There's a little bit of an asterisk there. Like, it's the top-rated podcast With a diabetic host in Illinois in the world. Like, like, that would be, I mean, that's more accurate, but no, I think I get—

Next. But yeah, anyways, yeah, I'm Brandon. I'm based out of Medford. I don't know who we have tuning in, but if you don't know the Boston area, that's Medford right outside of Somerville, which is right outside of Cambridge, which is right outside of Boston.

That makes sense.

Yeah.

Thanks.

Thanks.

That helps a lot.

Uh, yeah, I, uh, work from home most of the time, if you couldn't tell. Go into the office every now and then. I've got one nice little coworker here, Murphy, 4 years old. He, uh, doesn't do all that much, but he's nice to have around. I, uh, went to school actually here in Boston at Northeastern, got my bachelor's of computer science there. Born and raised in New Hampshire, pretty close to the Boston area, like southern New Hampshire. And for work at HubSpot, I am on the developer product group. We work on enabling people to build third-party applications and install those into HubSpot. So specifically, I'm a front-end tech lead that owns the HubSpot CLI, and that is just the mechanism through which people can interact with the HubSpot developer products.

You say it so humbly. Like, hey, that's a big deal.

Like, that's—

owning the CLI is like huge. Like, that's— that changed— that changed my life, my friend. So thank you.

Wow, I feel honored.

Yeah, you should be.

That is awesome. Yeah, no, thank you for— thank you for being here, Brandon. I really appreciate it. Like, let's start— let's kind of start— well, we'll go with origin story, right? Because everybody— there's— everybody has that moment, right? That kind of, um, whether it's in their career or just in technology in general or just in their— in the space that they say that this is something I want to to do, and this, this could be a career. Like, what was one of like the first things that sparked your interest in technology in general?

There's maybe a few moments for me. I mean, growing up, I was always interested in just building stuff. I said I grew up in New Hampshire, so building often meant like physically building things like, you know, treehouses. Uh, me and my brothers would build like, I don't know, like stupid weapons and things like that. So like, I've always liked creating. Then also there's like the, you know, I got super into GarageBand, super into like creating videos. And then it wasn't really, it had nothing to do with computer science up until probably high school where I took my first intro to HTML class. And that was kind of in like the MySpace days too, where like you could, you know, there's actually an application for HTML and like understanding CSS, 'cause then you could like actually style your pages. Um, but yeah, I, I took that class and it was really, really basic. It was just like HTML, CSS, you know, spin up something that's static. And I absolutely loved that. Like, I loved being able to just like come up with something in my head and then be able to actually see the manifestation of whatever I built. And then that's something I can like share with others, show to others. So that was kind of where it took off. Uh, for actually like considering computer science as a career, my dad actually is in, um, this industry as well. So he's a web dev, or he actually works on mostly like backend systems, like cloud storage and things like that. But I saw what he was doing and I couldn't fathom at all what he was actually doing day to day. But I more just saw like how he was able to work, like he could work from home, he could, you know, support the family that we had, which I was like, okay, at least it pays decently. And then that was kind of like the thing that pushed me into pursuing it from like the college degree perspective. I didn't really have any, I don't know if I felt incredibly strongly that like, oh, this is like my passion going into college. It was more of a like, this is the thing that I'm the most interested in and nothing else really resonates with me. But then actually in school, once I started seeing what CS actually is beyond just like HTML, That was when I really started to understand that I liked it a lot. I could start building more.

There's more beyond HTML and CSS? I thought this stopped right there. That was it.

Now I know why I'm so confused at work all the time. Now you said— I, I, I gotta, I gotta go back a little bit. Now you said that you did, uh, music in a garage band as well. What kind of, what kind of music? And if you don't mind sharing it, like, what was the name of the band? Because for me, that's always like The creativity and band naming.

GarageBand is gonna be less impressive than you think. I mean, literally the GarageBand software, like working with your default.

Oh, I thought you were like, okay, all right.

Nick's experience with Mac applications is out there.

Yeah, exactly. This is— no, this is—

and I can't create my own music, although I did take lessons for a year.

Brandon, you did say you were gonna watch next episode to see about something dumb I said. Just, just doing that. Just doing that. So it was worth tuning in to next episode, just so you know. This was all planned. Obviously in my notes I have this written down, so just so you know, like, yeah, I'm making it worth it. See, this is, this is why people tune in.

Brandon, can, can we, um, add some of your videos that you made, uh, in the past to the show notes to this? I'm sure you have 'em ready, readily available, right?

Oh, I've got 'em right here. Yeah. No, who wants to see those?

Oh, that's not true.

Very deep down in the depths of YouTube.

I feel like you can make us a brand new, like, theme intro song with GarageBand if you really wanted to.

Like, the intro is so High quality.

You would hate what I put up. Also, developers after dark—is this? Are we supposed to be filming now? Is it supposed to be? Listen, listen.

You know when you say words like that, it kind of like the magic's gone. Thanks, bro.

The viewer count just dropped. It's gone now. You just—you review.

Yeah, it feels a little disingenuous.

That's all. No, no, no. We're filming Alaska.

It's nighttime somewhere. You know, just like it's 5 o'clock somewhere, nighttime somewhere.

So it is— I forgot it's a global podcast.

Where did— when you signed the—

where did you get this quest?

I— when you signed the contract, Brandon, you were not supposed to say certain things. And I, I mean, right off the bat, here we go. Yeah, um, it was actually— I think we just came up with it because we thought, we thought, yeah, there's no way they're gonna let us do this during work hours, so we would have to do it after. So, and I think that was literally where that came about. So But I mean, that's, you know, for those that are watching that don't work at HubSpot, that is one of the like things that you can't really deny about how great it is, is it's like you're able to, not only are you able to do like meaningful work, but you're able to then branch out and actually like either learn new things or like that GarageBand isn't actually a GarageBand. Like there's things that you, that you learn. So it's like, yeah, I think the name came about because I think we thought this was going to be something which would have actually. Looking back on it a little bit would've sucked because then we would've had to have had people be like, hey, what you doing at like 9 o'clock at night on a Friday? Yeah, probably busy. Um, a little bit.

Maybe like for lunch doesn't really have the same ring.

Yeah, it's true. It's true. Nick, is this our first guest who's actually fully completed like, uh, their, you did, you went to school for what you're doing now. Like, have we had a guest yet who's actually went to school for what they're doing now? No.

No, you're actually— that's the first. Yeah, I'm— I—

Wow.

Slow— I will slow clap that one. That was it. And it's good too because like it— yeah, it would— I, I started to think that it was almost impossible because as a lot of the people that we talked to with it, like they started and some of them like maybe the paths were similar, right? Or they had some sort of like similarities or some sort of things in common. But yeah, a lot of the times it was like, yeah, I didn't expect myself to be here versus, you know, previous, right?

Yeah.

But I do like the fact too, like, our dad as well was a programmer for the— for like Cook County, for here in Illinois. And yeah, it was that same thing too, where we saw some of the stuff he was doing. It was like DOS too. So it wasn't like nothing, you know, but still you'd see that. And it was just kind of like, one, it's, you know, it's a parent or it's somebody that you look up to and respect. And it's like, well, what is— you know what I mean? The awe to it was amazing, right? And it kind of While I didn't go to school for that, it kind of— I do— I was drawn back to that. So I can appreciate that tremendously. So that is very, very cool. So with respect to the field that you're in now, how did you get started in particular?

Like specifically my role here?

Yeah.

Yeah. So going through school, one of the first things that I did when I got into college was I— they gave a presentation and they said, hey, if you want to pivot your major, we offer these things called dual majors. So on the spot in that meeting, I switched my major from just CS to CS/business with a focus in marketing. And that's relevant because that fit super, super well with what HubSpot does.

Interesting.

So that was like, I was like, oh, that is like the company that I have to work at. Yeah, it worked out really nicely. Also, I had a few roommates actually at the time. There was, I think, 5 of us living together. And at one period in time, 4 of us were all doing internships at HubSpot at the same time. Uh, and I had like, they had done an internship the year before I even knew about HubSpot. And I, I just heard through word of mouth through them how great it was. And they would hype it up every single day to the point of, I was getting sick of listening to them talk about it. Uh, but it, but it sounded awesome. They're, they're like, this place is like the greatest place you could ever work. So I, I shot really hard for that for my next co-op, which was my last co-op at Northeastern. Um, and from there I got the full-time position, ended up on the, uh, team that owned the CMS drag and drop page editor.

Mm-hmm.

Uh, that was kind of where we were working on the, the WYSIWYG editor where you can like click anywhere, drag anywhere, just bringing the page editor to like a modern modern functionality. And from there, I've kind of just like, that was very like marketer-focused in terms of the persona that we're solving for. And ever since then, I would say my journey at HubSpot has just been getting closer and closer and closer and closer to the developer persona, where I feel like now in, I'm in the developer product group. I feel like this is like my, the final destination of as close as I can possibly get to solving for that persona. Good.

So that's it? So you're done? You just stopped there? Like, you've solved it?

Done? Well done, man. I mean, I think we can all close up shop. I'm pretty sure we're good now. But I know you mentioned, you mentioned internship at the very, very beginning. Was there, was there something that surprised you about, like, when you first got into Like, let's say that that internship was like the start of the career, right? At that point, was there anything about that time that kind of surprised you more than anything else?

Yeah, a few things. I would say probably the biggest thing that surprised me when I made the transfer from just like academia into actually applying what I had learned in a work setting was the fact that I wasn't, maybe this will sound silly, but The fact that I wasn't expected to know everything and like how much learning actually happens in the workplace environment. Coming outta school and going into the first job, I hadn't done a lot of work on any sort of like real applications. Like all the classes are very focused on algorithms and like understanding the like inner workings of software development rather than like, oh, here's how you would actually piece all those puzzles. piece all those pieces together to build the broader picture. So I was really anxious going into the first job where I actually had to like build software. And I thought I was just gonna be like way outta my league. But turns out the, honestly, the most valuable thing I got outta school wasn't necessarily the like language-specific knowledge that I got. It was more just the skills and like the know-how of how to teach myself. to learn certain things and like hit a wall and then understand how to like self-service and get over it of like, oh, I've never seen this pattern before. I've never used this language before. I've never tried to build, you know, XYZ features before. And then just understanding that in the workplace is where like the majority of the actual learning happens. Yeah. And that was like really eye-opening for me.

I think that's a great point because that's, I think a lot of people don't realize that going outta school. Like they go in and they're like, oh man, they're gonna expect me to know everything. I think day one and like, that's a lot of pressure that people put on themselves to do that. So I think you pretty much like, I know that was the same for me. Like I went in and I was like, oh man, I don't understand like half of these things and whatever. And I remember very vividly, it was one of my good friends, Rob. He was like, dude, just sit down, take a breath. Like, stop. You are seriously pushing yourself way too much. Just take a breath, think about it kind of thing.

So yeah, I think that that's, that's—

So let me ask you this question then. Would you, if you had the choice to go back, cuz now there's like the bootcamps that people do, right? Where they learn and, and they code and they kind of build a project as they go. Would you, if you could go back, would you continue and say like, no, I would still go the school fundamental route, or I would probably do a bootcamp? Like, in your opinion, which one do you think would help somebody more in their future career path?

That's a good question. I think it largely depends on circumstance, like school. If you're gonna take a 4-year college, the cost and time cost of that is significantly more. I do think that going through like the 4-year program gave me a deeper understanding of like some of the foundational things. So maybe not necessarily building applications, but understanding like runtimes and the, like, you know, I had to do some projects in like assembly. So getting a like base level understanding of some of like the low-level stuff. I think has been semi-helpful. I don't know that I would say that it helps me like every single day, but there are definitely, you know, when you're going through like systems design type problems and you're trying to scope out the features from like the ground up, it's sometimes useful to have some of that background knowledge. But I don't know, my brother and his— actually, they're getting married this His fiancée, they're getting married next week. They just yeah, I'm excited for it. I have this suit. As soon as Dennis told me this was the biggest podcast in the world, I was like, "Oh, maybe I should put the suit on." And yet you didn't. See, lady oversold that. I had a whole bunch of ideas for this that I never executed on. I also wanted to get like a bunch of cups that I just randomly drank from to see if anybody picked up on that. No, but, but anyways, uh, they both went through the bootcamps and, and they're both fully employed now and they're, they're both killing it. So if I had to do it again, especially if you're factoring in cost, I might try the bootcamp first.

Hmm.

And then if it feels like I still don't have the, the tool belt that I need after that, then maybe start looking into the, the more expensive and, and longer-term one.

Do you think your answers say the same now with, I mean, this present generation? Like you took HTML in high school. Is that what's happening now in high school? Is there like—

It's way more advanced than that now.

Yeah. Right. I mean, so like, would that change how you would go about it perhaps if you were doing a lot in high school? I mean, I think college is very important, not only for the educational aspect, but for the socialization, for the actual just Growing your mind, generally speaking. Right. Uh, but I might do 3 things though. I don't know.

Yeah, it, I don't know. I think you have to know yourself too, cuz like me coming outta high school, I was so freaking lazy and like, I think I actually needed the college environment. Otherwise I wouldn't have learned anything. Like, oh yeah, I had, I, I tried to coast as hard as I could and then college kind of like knocked me on my ass a little bit. Um, and then it was like, oh shoot, I actually have to try here in order to get things done. And that was like a wake-up call for me. So I think I, I don't think I would've succeeded if I had gone to boot camp.

Like, I hear you there. Yeah, I'm, I'm the same way. We, we actually have photographic evidence of, uh, AJ being set on fire in college. So, yeah.

Oh God. Jury's out. Jury's out. You had, uh, I thought you were gonna pull it up. I was like, if you have it, this is—

Oh God. Stories.

No. This is the time I was gonna say if you have it. Uh, but no, that's, yeah, it, uh, it's completely understandable too because like at the same time. I think my first year in, I had that same thing where it was like going to college pretty much knocked sense into me. Like, yeah, this isn't gonna be one of those things that you're just gonna be able to just glide through. 'Cause it was like, I was like, oh yeah, I'm gonna take oceanography. And I was like, I had no intention of doing anything. It was just like, I just gotta fill a class here and there. I really didn't treat it like it was an educational experience that I could draw from as I went on. So. But going there shortly after that, yeah, it really kicked me into gear. But I think it would have been nice to have those type of bootcamp options and things of that, like starting out, because I definitely would have tried those first. I mean, I've got an 11-year-old who's— they're teaching them to use ChatGPT right now to help improve their writing skills, right? So it's like, This is not going to be the same. Do you know what I mean? Like where it was like, like you were talking about. I mean, I think you took the same class as me too, just at different times. The intro to, the intro to web coding. I don't even know what it was called. But it was just like, they didn't teach CSS yet at that time because it hadn't picked up yet. Yeah. So I mean, like, it's gonna be a lot different when my 11-year-old is already doing ChatGPT to help her write Better. So, um, but no, that's, I couldn't agree with that more, 100%. So.

Yeah, she'll be a better software dev than all of us in like a couple years.

Yeah, I was gonna say like the next generation is absolutely gonna be so, and I mean like there's, and again, there's like, it's a double-sided or double-edged sword at that point too, because it's like, they'll be so embedded in tech. And then at the same time, it's like, go ride your bike. And then just, I don't want to ride my bike. I want to play Fortnite. So it's like, I have to argue with my youngest. About like, no, go do something like touch grass. You cannot do Fortnite all day. So it's, yeah, it has this kind of like balancing act that you try to do. But I think if you can tackle that problem with the balancing act, I think you're going to have like a much, much more informed, um, and there'll be more options for like the next, uh, group coming, you know, going through that. So.

Like, I'm excited for 20 years from now to see what Tech is going to be like, especially with all of this. Because like as as somebody just said on YouTube, like their friend's seven-year-old is getting taught Python. My kids just put together during third grade; they put together like Google slide decks because they had their open house at the school last night, and we go there and they're like giving us presentations of like all about themselves. And I was like, this is good, like meme heavy for sure, and it was awesome. But I'm like, I think I may just have my kids do my next like internal like.

Google project that we're going to present.

Like, I'm just going to have them do it and present it that way.

'Cause I think it's just hilarious that they want to learn more like that.

Plus no one's going to argue with a kid that's given a presentation, even if it's like the statistics are wrong.

And then be like, yeah, you can't argue with it. Tell them they're wrong.

Go ahead.

Who's going to call them out and say, yo, that ROI? Yeah. Nice try.

No one's going to do that.

Mom, AJ's child's crying. Y'all, you're all so optimistic. In 20 years, like, what are we doing? Like, we're just— AI is taking over and we're just going to No work.

They've got— I was gonna say, I've got, uh, Golf Plus on the, uh, Oculus or the, uh, the Quest now. That's, that's all you— it's all you really need at this point. The rest of it, smooth sailing. It's gonna be Ready Player One.

We're all just gonna be sitting in rooms and like, world.

Yeah, that's such a good movie, but it's scary at the same time how close we could be to that being a reality. That's— yeah.

Then your kids will be trying to get outside and touch grass.

Yeah, right.

Oh, absolutely.

It's moving. But if we remember back when Facebook first launched their like VR thing where like there were no legs to people, there were no—

like, it's moving, it's moving.

But floating bodies, just to really— let's go to— I want to shift a little bit to some milestones and pivotal moments for you so far in your career. Um, can you talk a little bit about those?

Yeah.

Um, I will start aside from being on the podcast. I mean, that's obviously well done. Well, yeah, we all know.

Yeah, that goes without saying.

Paper shuffle to make it seem like he had notes.

I do. No, I do. You know what? No, no. Dennis knows. Dennis knows that I did. I printed out notes. See, Brandon, there's been a, there's been a, there's been a transition throughout that. It's only been 15 episodes, but we've, we started out a little fast and loose. We've tightened things up a little bit, and I print notes. I don't have silly quizzes at the end, which I thought were fun, but it took up a lot of time. So there's things we've, uh, we, we're sparing you from some of them.

You don't do the quizzes because you're lazy?

No, no, it's not because I'm lazy.

It took up a lot of time, like, and meaning it took like Okay, okay. There was a, there was a thing where it was like, hey, this can't run 2 hours because no one's gonna tune in that long.

And it was like— And the fact that these questions were all from 1994 to 1996—

That was in one instance. That was in one. Brandon, if you ever have a chance, there's an episode with Brie Hall, and I completely— I made a quiz that was completely irrelevant because the movie quiz was nothing that the guest had even, even seen. And it was just like, yeah, I, I feel so bad.

Breeze, like, I wasn't born yet.

Like some of these that it's like, yeah.

Right. And so it was, yeah. So there, but there was, there was, there was honor in the attempt. But yeah, so those things get kind of tossed to the wayside, but not to divert the conversation. Sorry. Milestones and pivotal moments.

Yeah, I'll have to, I'll have to go back and watch the lore of the origins of this podcast. Yeah. For milestones, I would say the first real big one I had actually happened in college during my first internship. So I was CS degree, and if anybody's not familiar with Northeastern, they do the co-op program where you are, you do like an alternating class versus 6-month or however long it was internship cycle. So you're kind of like, it was nice for me because I don't know if I would've been proactive enough to go off and find my own internship. So it was really nice to have somebody being like, you have to find one, otherwise you're in trouble. But for me, I had a really hard time landing my first internship and I actually couldn't get one that was in the industry that I wanted. Well, in the industry, but not the role that I wanted. So my first one, I was doing QA at a company called PHT. I think they might've rebranded and I don't know if they're still around now, but their whole thing was that they built medical survey software where like people could who were testing drugs could go and fill out questionnaires each day just so that the company could then like verify that it was doing what it was supposed to be doing. And they could just verify it and whatever. I wasn't testing the drugs. I was testing the software. But yeah, it was a QA role and I hated it so much. The company had like cubicles, so I was by myself all day, just like locked in a literal And metaphorical box. I was just testing things that other people— The walls are the tall ones. They were pretty tall. You couldn't see over. You had to like stand up and get out of it to go to the next thing.

Yeah. That's too much. Felt like a prison. I do have to push back on a little bit of something that you had written down, because for just for transparency for everybody, we do in this iteration that we have, I do have a questionnaire that people— you do mention that I had to settle for a QA role. Now, as somebody that personally works in ecosystem quality where they have to QA, you know, I don't know, offerings in the marketplace, what do you mean by had to settle? Just throw that out there. I'm just curious.

I don't know what you're talking about. That must be on somebody else's doc that you got confused.

I mean, my highlighter is smearing stuff. When I was— it could have just been me because that's how the GarageBand thing got messed up. I believe it was just a highlighter, but—

Mirror problem there.

Thought I'd ask. I just thought I'd ask. That's all I share. Sorry.

No, no shade to QA. It's incredibly important. But for me, when I wanted to be building something, it stunk that I had to just be like testing day in and day out. And also the, that industry was just so boring to me of like going through these forms and then checking to see if the form was doing what it was supposed to be doing just day over day over day over day. So like the pivotal moment there for me was realizing that I had kind of just been coasting through college up until that point. Like my GPA wasn't anything special. I wasn't like, you know, failing classes or anything, but I just wasn't putting my best effort out. And it really showed in the co-op that I landed. So I kind of like tried to flip the switch and be like, okay, I am trying now because I really never want to be disappointed by the internship that I get. And it also didn't help that like all of my close friends in college, uh, who also were in the same, um, degree got like way better co-ops, like better paying. They were software dev. They were like learning so much. They would come home every day, like so excited. Of course. But what they had learned at computer science, they're like, everyone's gonna be so happy for you. Um, oh great. By the way, the floors worked fine today. So anyways, it was kind of like the kick in the butt that I needed, I think. Um, so I just spent— I would do my work that I had so easily there because they weren't really expecting all that much from me. And then I had a bunch of free time and nobody was looking over me because I was literally in a box where nobody could see.

Right.

So I just spent a ton of time just learning, uh, other like programming languages. The thing that was interesting to me at the time was making games. So I kind of used that as like the mechanism through which I was learning things. I think I tried to pick up like Python and built something there. I learned C# and made a game there, but I wouldn't say that I actually learned it because I, my like memory management was so bad that if you played it for more than like 5 minutes, it would just crash.

Because I was going to ask, can I get it on Steam? Because I will check it out.

If you give me $20, I'll email it to you. Um, yeah, so, so that was really helpful and I feel like that was a, a good way for me to kind of like catch up to the pack, uh, and at least not feel like I was like so far behind in everything because they were getting all that like real life work experience and I was just like, you know, um, plugging away through forms. Uh, so I, I think that was very pivotal for me. Um, I also had another, I would say like another milestone here is at work actually, kind of related to that concept of like how much learning do you do in school versus like how much learning do you do in the actual professional setting. I had this mindset of when I first started for like maybe the first year or so that whenever I was given a task that I should just like put horse blinders on and just like beeline it through that task and just produce the result as quickly as I possibly could. And like my speed was really high. And I was like, okay, that's the only thing that matters is just that like I'm producing code so quickly. And it's like impressing people that I can do it so fast.

Mm-hmm.

But then what I wasn't doing was taking the time to actually like look around and understand the areas of the product that I was working in. So I would, I would like finish these products or these features or whatever I was doing and I would do them quickly. So I would like get some praise for it, but then at the end of it, I would have no idea. Like, I wouldn't know anything else about that system. I would just know the very specific lines of code that I had written. And if you asked me a question about like, well, how does like this other piece in the system work? I would have no answer for you. I would have to like go back in and look at it as if I had like never done it before.

That's a huge shift from like what you do now, right? I mean, you have to have giant scope of like what's happening with the CLI and what's going on, where things are coming from. That's so huge.

Yeah, that was like the real shift for me is like, um, I think I've heard it described as like speed versus momentum, where like speed is like just building features really, really fast, but then like every single time you're back in that system, you're like starting from scratch. Like you haven't increased your momentum. You've just increased, like, your speed is high, but like momentum is like you, you are building these things, but as you're building it, you're also taking the time to learn so that the next time you build it, you, you get like the head start and then you can move faster and you can move faster and you can move faster. Yeah. Yeah. Like as you know more and more and more, it just expands your ability to build things quickly. So that was kind of like the, the shift for me there.

That was, that was a huge one that stood out to me. And I actually, AJ, you, whatever you say, regardless of it, I do actually take notes and highlight. I, I did. I love momentum is more important than pure speed. Like that was something that when I saw that, I I was just like, it literally rings true on so many different levels. And it's like, that's a mindset that, you know, because like when you first, like people can easily fall into the trap. Like when you first start out doing something, whether that's a job or a task or whatever, it's just like, I just want to get through this. I just want to get to the other end and then onto the next thing without really understanding like the impactfulness of the work that you're doing. Right. And people should, right? Because they're doing, like, people here, especially at HubSpot, are doing really great work and you would hate for that to get overlooked, especially by the person doing it because they're more worried about like getting to the next thing versus how that's gonna integrate into other things. So yeah, I thought that's why I highlighted that. I thought that was just, um, you know, like it's hugely impactful. I just think personally, so.

No, no. I mean, I've said this in like several podcasts so far, like where when I was on at an agency, I just was getting the website done. I made it pretty. And I got it done and I didn't really think about how this is actually connecting to anything else. It's a website, you know, I'm done. Right. And once I moved on to here, I realized, oh my God, I missed out on so much potential that I could have done with it and connected it better to the actual CRM itself that it's, I feel sad.

Yeah, absolutely. You're doing like yourself a disservice.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. I think it's also like a delicate balance too, right? Because like you can do like the MVP building, but if you go the opposite end of the spectrum, which is like you Usually what I do is like, I go full in and all of a sudden my mind just starts, and Dennis can, you know, attain this.

Yeah.

We'll start with an idea and all of a sudden I'm like 5 years down the line. Here's what we need to do. Here's everything. And it's like, peel it back. Like, right? And like, that's one of the things that I have to learn about. 'Cause even our boss Chris tells me all the time, he's like, hey, you don't need to go to the end with this. Like, let's, let's iterate, let's do whatever. So like, I'm, I'm in that opposite boat where like I overplan and I like have everything laid out. And then it's like, now I've kind of put like a wall up around it and it's like, great, I only operate within these parameters and do whatever. So like, I've been myself trying to be more of the, let's start like, go like halfway. Don't go 30 years down the line.

Yeah. Yeah. There's definitely halfway. And I like that. Now I was gonna ask you, is there, was there any, um, obviously, you know, becoming a, a TL as well is one of those things that's kind of like, You know, it's a milestone. It's a pivotal moment. Were there any things that going from the position to a team lead was— made it difficult, or you had to like kind of change the way? Because I remember, Dennis, I can't remember who we were talking with previously, where they said that their mindset kind of had to change.

Yeah.

Like making that transition was— did you have any similar things like that, Brandon, with yourself, where you had to kind of start to change the way you thought about things?

Oh, yeah. Yeah. I would say big time. There's a few things. I mean, one of, like, the most obvious ones is just your impact changes from being pure code output and, like, what you can produce with code to now a, like, team-level output. So, it's not necessarily about the code that you're individually producing, but it's also about, like, what is the impact that the broader team has, but then also, like, What are the career trajectories of the people on your team? And there's just like so many other things that you need to start worrying about. And you'll go weeks where you're not necessarily writing any code or maybe not that much code. And when you're like fresh from IC into TL role, that's something that at least I was really insecure about because I would go a little while and all I had to show for myself at the end of the week was like a couple conversations and some Google Docs.

Yeah.

And I was like, oh, it does not feel like I did any.

Yeah. Yeah. I hear you there. I hear you.

It was right. Yeah. Um, so that was really, really hard to get used to and honestly still is sometimes. Uh, HubSpot always says that the, the tech lead role should be coding on a, on average, your work should be split between like, uh, coding and, or like active code contributions and managerial tasks. I think they say like 70% to 30%. Towards coding. Um, and I feel like I often skew closer to more to like, I don't know, sometimes like 50/50 or even less on the like coding side. So that's something that I'm actively trying to just like push on to make sure that I'm, I'm being a little bit more selfish in some cases and making sure that like I'm taking the time to contribute code and, and PR reviews and like from the technical perspective. But that's something that's really hard to adjust to.

Um, That's a very, it's another delicate balance, right? I mean, maybe some months it actually makes more sense for you to be 30% code and 70%, you know, lead. It, it's, it's just, it shifts all the time, I imagine.

Oh yeah, 100%. It definitely ebbs and flows, uh, especially when you're like in planning season or if you're in the very, very like early stages of any sort of new product. Like, yeah, you're gonna be in more meetings. You're gonna be talking about more like project planning things and system design and all that type of thing and like scoping out issues and collaborating with other teams. So yeah, absolutely. And then once you actually like get everything on paper and as issues and people are starting to agree to some of like the initial passes of things, then you can actually go a little bit more heads down. But yeah, that was probably the hardest thing for me to get used to. Also just The meeting load, which I didn't, I guess like everybody warns you when you're going from an IC to a TL that it's gonna be more meetings. And, you know, as an IC, you're kind of like, yeah, yeah, whatever. That sounds fine. I'll just handle it. But it really was a big shift, even just from an energy perspective. Like, I just wasn't used to being in meetings that often. And I lean towards introvert. So for me, like being in social settings, I love it and I like talking to people, but it drains me. So I would get out of meetings all day and then sit down. It's like, okay, now's the time where I can be productive, but I just wouldn't have the energy to do anything. And then I felt really guilty because I'm like, there's nothing else that I have going on. Why am I not—

Right, right. Seriously, I've been sitting here freaking meetings all day long. Why can I not just, you know, do something now?

Yeah, I hear you. Yeah. Yeah. And I feel like the, that was kind of also around the time where we, uh, COVID hit and then we all started working from home more often. And I hadn't really worked from home for like any, you know, consistent amount of time. So that was like such a hard transition for me. It's just like the guilt of being home, it being the workday, but then just not having any energy to like actually sit down and be productive. Which like, if you think about it, when you're in the office, like you'll grab coffee breaks, you'll take like lunches where you're chatting with people, but like for some reason when you're home alone and there's nobody else, like At work who's chatting with you, you just feel more guilty that you're not doing anything.

Oh yeah. Yeah. When your inspiration, when your coworker behind you is doing that all day long, I mean, what are you gonna do? I know. Yep. What are you gonna do? Yeah.

Well, just wait till he gets his year-end review.

That's right.

Seriously. Yeah. How, how did it, how was the transition like when you became a lead to be able to think about, you know, your, your staff, like you said, their, you know, their career trajectory and whatnot. Like how was that for you in terms of like, You know, the, the teaching aspect of it, the code reviews, all that good stuff.

Yeah, that one's— that's one that's been very interesting. I think at HubSpot, one thing that's nice is that, uh, even as individual contributors, you can kind of fill in that, that like mentorship role a little bit because like we all review each other's PRs. So there's that opportunity. A lot of like the more senior devs on teams will kind of like stand in as mentors for some of like the, the slightly greener devs. So you get some of that experience even before you get like put into the TL role where it's like more explicitly your job to do it. So that transition was a little bit easier for me. The thing that's difficult to overcome is this idea of, at HubSpot we call it like gardening versus gatekeeping, of like how much do you pre-plan out work and scope issues and reduce ambiguity for devs versus how much do you like Let that ambiguity exist and kind of like challenge them to, to grow, like throw problems at them that are gonna push their, their abilities and like finding exactly where that spot is. And for me, I think sometimes I tend to, to lean more on the like pre-scoping things out. It's kind of hard for me to just like stand back and say, um, I'm going to challenge you and like, it is possible that you'll fail here and that's okay. Um, you know, that, that's just like a learning opportunity. And I've always had that mindset of like, when things become overwhelming and it feels like we have a lot to do, I just will take on a lot of the burden instead of like delegating and then like trying to spread the work out. So that was something that like, and honestly still is to some extent, something that, uh, I'm trying to get better and better at is like the, just like let go and let people do the work because they're all capable and they can do it.

Sure.

And it also like gives them the opportunity to show those wins. Right. Like, right. If they do succeed, then that's like a growing opportunity and looks great for them. And then, you know, and also the team.

So, uh, do you push people hard, like on, you know, this person can do X better, but it's hard for them. Do you push them to really try to get better at that?

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I try to, we do like week or we do biweekly one-on-ones now. And in those, we always try to With, you know, sometimes I, I'm not as good at this as I should be, but the goal in the one-on-ones is to be talking about career trajectory in, you know, everyone ideally, but, you know, at least, you know, at a fairly regular cadence. And in those is where you have the opportunity to say like, okay, here's like the next whatever role or accolade or whatever that you're trying to shoot for that's gonna progress your career. And like, here are like the, the pieces of that that you could be focusing on to make sure that you can kind of like showcase your ability to do whatever it is. Like, yeah, without getting, uh, specifics there, but like, yeah, try to just find projects that you can give to people where they have the ability to like, you know, finish the project, which always looks good, but then also like check other boxes along the way of, oh, can you like collaborate with other teams?

Mm-hmm.

Oh, can you like, Right. Mentor this other person? Can you like do these other things that then we could kind of like check off and give experience there too?

And biweekly, you mean every other week, I'm assuming? Because if you're doing this twice a week, I can give you some advice on clearing up some of those meetings. You know, might be a little overkill there.

Yeah. Every other week. Good advice, Dennis. Good.

You're welcome. I think I just did my part.

Let me write that. I don't have a notebook.

Let me write this down. Way to bring that Bring the quality up on that one, Dennis. I appreciate that. Thank you. Well, let's change gears a little bit and let's talk about real life. Let's talk about outside of work. Let's talk about— you said there's, and rightfully so, right? There's sometimes things can get a little bit stressful, a little bit overwhelming, right? Depending on what time of year it is and whether you're planning or trying to meet a deadline and things like that. What type of things do you try to do? And again, we always have the disclaimer. Um, that you can never, most things you can never get away from tech, like non-tech, like, like if I were to ask you, like, tell me something non-techie. Yeah, that's really hard to do, but as least techie as possible, what are like some of the things that you like to try to do to unwind?

Sure. Yeah. I would say my, my absolute biggest hobby that I think all of you know is golf. I got into golf over COVID and I got obsessed with it. Like obsessed to the point where like my wife would get annoyed with me talking about it. I was like watching YouTube videos. I was playing it nonstop. I was going to the driving range nonstop. I was like, probably gonna question, uh, the Masters.

Isn't that— I think that's coming up in a couple weeks, isn't it? I think you're right. Yeah. And then I— yeah, I think this—

I don't actually—

yeah, I think the— yeah, no, I think the Masters comes up in a couple weeks. And then I thought, because I remember they had, um, they had it here. I can't remember which golf course, but not a couple years back, not too long ago.

No, that's not— that wasn't the Masters. Was it always in Augusta? Yeah, yeah.

Oh, I'm thinking the US. Maybe it was the US Open. It was the US Open.

I went to it. It was in— yeah, the— yeah.

Oh, nice. That's awesome. Yeah, it was Cog Hill, AJ. Is that what you're saying, right? I think it was Cog Hill. Yeah, yeah, that's right. That's where I got married, actually. Funny enough. Um, but, uh, yeah, no, that's, um, that's probably one of the things— one of the— one of the one sports that I watch that I cannot do for anything. Like Not like I'm like, you can try things like you could throw a football, you could do it like hitting a golf ball. I can't, I just can't do it. I'm like, I am so horrible at it that like I said, I had to buy it Golf Plus for the Quest 3. And that is about as close as I get to looking like I know what I'm doing.

Were you able to bowl then?

Yeah.

Oh yeah, of course then. 'Cause you could just like, honestly, the sensor on that thing, you could just go like this and you're like, ah, 220-something yards drive. No problem.

Ramping on the table knocks things over.

Right. Yeah. Yeah. How did you, uh, like, was it, was that something that, did it take you a while to get used to doing, like just getting into golf? Because like, I feel like that's got to be one of those ones where it's like, you could get used to get into ping pong pretty quickly, you know, where it's like golf, maybe not so much.

Yeah. It's like the great equalizer. Everybody sucks at golf when they start. And a lot of people suck at golf even after they start. Um, yeah. Yeah. That one was tough. That was one where I didn't have, I was kind of like looking for some hobby to kind of just like jump into. That's always how I am. Like anytime I find a new thing that I'm interested in, I'm gonna do it like 110% until my wife, friends, family, everybody are just sick of me for like talking about it. So I was kind of like in the market for a new thing. And during COVID my friends were like, hey, you gotta try golf. Uh, and it actually wasn't the first time I'd ever played. My, my dad golfs also, and when I was little, he tried to get me into it, but I just did not have the like mental fortitude to handle it. I, I have like some like scarred memories of like hitting it into the water and just absolutely losing it. Uh, that was a no-go when I was young, but then in COVID I picked it back up and I stunk at it, but I was almost like excited that I stunk at it because I was like, oh great, now this is gonna be like the greatest arc where like I go from Shot so bad to just like practice it nonstop and then get good. So I was like, I was happy that I had like one thing to just commit all of my time and energy to.

Is there any like footage of you, like, you know, doing your thing, like a documentary of your—

I know I should have, I should have filmed it and then we could have had such a cool—

You could have got a GarageBand, made a nice soundtrack. I mean, come on.

But you should, I mean, you can't expect nothing less. Like if you do have that mentality where like when you go into something, you do, like I do the same thing. Archery, like, you know, was one of the things where I was like, tried it for the first time. And I was like, by the end of the first lesson, I was like, which one, which bow am I buying? Which one? The guy's like, this is your first lesson. We're not letting you walk out of here with anything. Like, you need to make sure— like, but that kind of lends to that. I'm excited about not being good at it because I'm gonna push and I'm going to be up there. Yeah, I feel like that's usually be good at that.

I don't wish you to be good at archery, man.

This don't. I think it's fun. I mean, personally, I I think it's fun. No, but it's that mentality, right? That's what gets you that drive, essentially. No pun intended with golf, but see what I did there?

That's why this is the best podcast in the world.

See, you have all of them there.

There you go. There you go.

I have a I have a scar right here from being hit with a number three. Wood. Yeah, like a driver when I was probably like 9 by my cousin. We were practicing. I lived on a farm, so we just like hit balls out into the field and I was teaching him how to do it. Stood too close and then a backswing just like smashed and my lip went open. Fun fact.

Well, good thing you got that beard now. You can't even notice.

That's why it's there. That's why it's there.

All right. That is rough.

So do you still golf, Dennis, then? Or—

I haven't golfed a lot. I really enjoy golfing. I do. I really, but I haven't golfed in many years. I'm not sure really why. Just, I haven't. When I go home, like, we'll still drive into the field. You can go out to our, you know, one of our fields, you'll see like golf balls all over the place. That's about it. It's awesome.

I just imagine Dennis getting in trouble when he's younger, being like, go clean the field, go.

Yeah, right. Seriously, he's that guy in the— he's the guy in the little— yeah, drives the cart with the buggy in the back that picks them all up and you aim at them. That's the, uh— now, what, uh, I'm just suggesting a Devra Louting hit golf balls at Dennis while he's up there. That's— I mean, that could be a fun— that could be a fun thing to do. I'm just saying, like, I, I don't think so.

I also—

You wear hockey pants like head to toe. Yeah, listen, Dennis, I'm just trying to do team building here. I mean, if you want to be negative about it, that's fine. I'm just throwing it out there.

You're right, you're right, right.

I know, I usually am. I usually am, except for, you know, 800-pound elephants and things like that. So it's, it's, yeah, but usually I'm right. Um, you also mentioned too, I wanted to ask you, like, you do, um, for unwinding, uh, not just coding, like trying to code video games, but is gaming one of those things that you kind of do to unwind as well?

Yeah, off and on. I haven't played in a little while, but yeah. Um, I was a big, big, big into video games in college and right after. And now I, I like go through phases depending on if games are out that I'm interested in. I used to play a lot of, uh, first-person shooters like Apex and Over— well, Overwatch, not first-person, but like, you know, competitive shooters.

Yes. Right.

Um, but then I stopped for long enough that now it is like too hard for me to get back into those. And whenever I try to play them, I just get absolutely annihilated by people that are like a third my age, and it is extremely frustrating.

Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, that's the same thing with golf right now.

You seem to go to New York.

Wow.

Okay. Wow.

I should be motivated by that, if anything, I guess.

It's— yeah, me and AJ can attest to that, where it's the, um, nothing beats getting like shit-talked by, uh, like 6-year-olds, you know, and, uh, while you're getting destroyed in Call of Duty, it's like devastating.

It's just, that's, that's how you know you're old.

As I'm like, oh God, I'm like, really? And then my kid plays too now. Well, not Call of Duty, but he's starting to play games more and more. And it's like, yeah, I'm just like, I'm listening to him try to, and I'm like, you're not, there is no mic for games for you. I'm just letting you know, right? Like, cause that was like the one big thing where I was like, absolutely not. Are you being exposed to like open mic anything right now at this as a 2nd grader? No. Uh, he's lucky he's on the computer. But yeah, it's just one of those things where it's like, it's a stress reliever, um, in moderation, right? It can be addicting. But, um, yeah, I always found that to be something where, um, at the end of the day when it's— and Dennis loves when I say that. Um, uh, but no, I, I just feel like it's one of those things where it's like, it's, there's always these pockets of things that help you escape from the real world for a short time. I attribute it to like going to Disney World or Disneyland. AJ, you know what I'm talking about? You just go there and it's like you forget where you are for a short period of time. Like anything that can do that, I think is just hugely beneficial. And I mean, stuff like golf, gaming, like that kind of stuff really does, I think, help. You know, I'm not saying that should take the place of any type of like, if you need to like talk to somebody like this, but it does, it does definitely help get you away from like, you know, the real world for a little while. So.

Yeah. I'm always the guy in the games who's just like running against the wall constantly because you can't figure out where to go.

Spinning in circles, right?

Shooting myself in the face. You know, like that's happened a few times.

I always forget to pull the parachute.

So like we all jump off the plane and then I just like bam, right on the ground. I pull it too late every time.

I was going to ask you, Brandon, just to kind of shift out of the extracurriculars, is there anything that you do Um, that kind of helps you, cuz again, like we talked about, you know, things that you do to unwind versus things that are, you know, on the job that, you know, keep you busy. But is there, is there any tips or anything that you have for people when it comes to the work-life balance? Cuz that's something, I mean, that's a phrase that we use not just here, but I'm sure everybody uses it in their job at some point. So is there anything that like you do to help balance that?

Yeah, that's a good question. That was actually a really hard one for me once we all started working from home. I never had a problem with it when I was going into the office, cuz it was always really easy for me to just leave the office and then say, well, it wasn't as like clear-cut as this, but like, you know, you leave the office and then work is done.

Yeah.

Sometimes it's hard when like you're in the middle of a problem and you solve it on your walk home because you can't stop thinking about it.

Yeah, yeah.

But like the majority of the time, I would be pretty good at just being like, I'm home. Then, you know, like I prioritize life over work. So I'm gonna just focus on that. And then when I'm in the office, I give it my all and, you know, separate it. But then when you're home, it's so hard to create that separation.

Yeah.

'Cause my office is where I do everything. I like, I play video games here. I do personal stuff here. Like it's all at this desk. It just feels like it all meshes together. For me, uh, I try with limited success, some, you know, success to just turn off at the end of the day. And like, instead of trying to like bring my computer down and say, oh, I'll just like finish the workday in the living room or whatever. And, and which like kind of like gives like a really long tail. 'Cause like, you know, you're, you'll be like cooking dinner or something after work is over, but then you'll see your computer thing and then now you'll start noticing Slacks that are coming in and emails. You're like, well, I might as well answer those to get ahead of the next day.

Yeah.

So I try as much as I can to not do that and then just like leave my computer in the office. I always go out for, well, now I kind of have to with him, but go out for walks in the morning and after work. So like, I'll start every day with a walk with him and then I'll like come back, make coffee, do that kind of thing, then sit down to start the day. And then my day ends that way too, where like I wrap up work and then I just go take him on a walk. And I think that's been really helpful for me to just like keep work in one little like segment of my day and then like Before and after, the walks are like my transitions.

No, that's brilliant. That's absolutely brilliant. Yeah, it's hard to like it. You the last thing you want to do is be like with one hand on your laptop here while you're cooking on the other, trying to like you know what I mean? It's just like that it can get not that people would take it to that extreme. I mean, maybe I've done that once, but yeah, it's just it's hard not to want to because like you said, there's this kind of like fear of backlog where it's like if I don't answer this now, then that, and then there could be three other things, and then it's like. The fear of the unknown when it's really, yeah, there should be that unplug and it's a hard habit to break. And plus too, it depends on like what your history's been up to this point. Like if you've worked somewhere else where that wasn't the case and it's, you know, that's a hard habit to break. I mean, I've very, it's, I've, I don't even think I've broken that habit here, even working here almost 4 years. I still have habits from old jobs where I just, it's just, Yeah, sometimes it's just that hard to break.

It's also if you enjoy your job, like, like compared to like that QA job, I imagine you weren't going home thinking about that, you know. You totally like got rid of that QA job.

Not the QA jobs. Yeah, like a factory reset, as if I had never worked there.

Yeah, yeah, it's severance. It's essentially— that would be severance right there.

I've always liked QA, like I've always thought it's fun to like Do some quality testing. I remember at, uh, the old agency I worked at, her name was Kendall. She's, she was one of the best QA people ever, but like, she loved making you feel bad because you missed something. And it was hilarious because she did it on purpose. So it was always this like funny banter, but you would just get this doc and be like, hey, I think you forgot how to code for a bit here.

Like, and it was hilarious.

I was gonna say, if you want, I've got about it. I've got the queue open over here. If you like QA that much, my friend, I can say, do you want—

I kind of got this other thing I'm working on.

I was gonna say, don't you have access? You can, you can, you can see what I could see. I mean, if you want to help, I mean, brotherly love, that's all you got to do.

Yeah, Matt, AJ, if you actually want people to talk to you like that, I'm here for you, man. I'll start talking like that all the time.

He wants to be talked down to. I mean, I'll do— I do that for free, so I don't know, like, it's fine. I mean, if you really like it that much, I mean, I guess. Um, but let me, uh, I know we're running up on time almost, but I did want to ask you this question, Brandon, because I, I'm always fascinated with the, um, the variety of answers just because, you know, everybody's experience is different. The people that they interact with throughout their careers, throughout their life, uh, you know, obviously there's not gonna be any that even come close to each other in most cases. But, um, as far as like mentorship advice, like what is some of the best advice that a mentor has ever given you about the industry that you're in? Or it doesn't even necessarily have to be about the industry, but just best advice overall. A lot of that stuff kind of transfers, but.

And I always, I always stipulate, don't nothing from me. Okay. So don't worry about it.

Interjects, but if you wanna call it—

yeah. Yeah, that's a good question. I would say some of the best advice I ever got was related to how to progress your career. And it was really about But making sure that you're always talking with your manager about what it is that you want next, which sounds so simple and so obvious. But when I was, especially when I was like a more junior dev and I was newer in the industry, I kind of just thought that like, you know, you just work hard and you do your stuff and then people will just like naturally push you up and like things will come to you. Which, you know, if people are attentive and in the best case scenario, that does happen to some extent, but like The better way to do it is to be way more proactive about it and let people know what it is that you want next rather than forcing them to guess at what it is that you want next. So that was something I started doing maybe like midway through my time at HubSpot and then just started making that a conversation that I was having in like all of the one-on-ones with my manager and not from like the annoying perspective of like, when do I get the promotion? When do I get the promotion? When do I— like, that's not what I mean.

Mm-hmm.

I more just mean like, Constantly asking like, what is it going to take for me to get to the next level? Like, I, like, I want this like active, open feedback so that I can continue to grow. Uh, I, I feel like I had a bad habit of just like every now and then just saying, what could I be doing better? And I feel like when people are put on the spot with that question, they always just say, you're doing good. Like, you know, no, keep it up.

Yeah.

Which is just not helpful at all. And it's also not really fair to them cuz it's hard to come up with like really thoughtful And useful feedback on the spot when somebody asks you that question. So instead of going that route, I went the route of like, okay, every one-on-one we're going to be talking about this. So like, make sure that when we're in the one-on-one, you have reasonable feedback for me. So when I was pushing for like the TL role, that was something that I think helped me a lot, especially because I had been having that conversation with my manager and my manager's manager. A different role. We had like some sort of like hand-wavy plan for what it was gonna look like for me to go from IC to, to TL. But instead of that happening, another TL role opened up on like some adjacent team. And because I had been having that conversation and I had been like, uh, you know, leveling up and, and trying to check all the boxes that they said I needed to work on, um, when that became available, I was like one of the first people on the front of their mind because they're like, oh, he's like really gunning for this.

Nice.

He's supposed to be ready for me. So that was like one of the reasons why I was able to land that.

Is it fair to say it's almost— it becomes more of a continuing conversation than this kind of like spot check where, like you said, without— it becomes disingenuous to try to answer something on the spot like that because there needs to be some thought put into it, right? And if you continue to talk about it throughout and throughout and throughout, it becomes more— even if it's in the back of your mind at a certain point, it's still on the mind versus completely out of sight, out of mind. Then, oh, all of a sudden, let's Let's bring up this conversation that, you know, we didn't talk about for like 6 months and let's pick up where we left off, you know?

Yeah, exactly. And it just makes them feel like, like if you're asking for feedback, not because you want like, uh, them to tell you what you're doing wrong, but because you're like actively trying to grow, it makes it so much easier for them to give you feedback. 'Cause it's framed from a perspective of like, here's how you level up, not here's what you're doing wrong.

Right. No, that's fantastic. One last question I wanted to ask you. Are there any— and it's one of these things where I might have to call you out on this one one more time, Brandon, but it's about resources, the resources that you might find particularly valuable in kind of like in growing in your growth in your career. I mean, you did mention that there was nothing super insightful for podcasts, Sorry. Uh, but you know, I mean, there might be one I can think of. Uh, but aside from that, aside from that, are there any other, uh, things that you, uh, tend to use as far as resources that help you kind of keep up with, uh, the industry?

Yeah. Aside from this obvious one. Uh, yeah, I, I do a lot of, uh, I'm not a huge podcast listener. Now you are. I would classify, yeah, I'm more of like a, I'd rather participate than, yeah, I'm more of the type of person where when I find like a technology or something that I'm interested in, I'll do like a deep dive into it rather than a like steady stream of consumption. So like, I'll hit a point where it's like, oh, I feel like I don't know enough about this technology. Now let me go watch YouTube videos. I'm big on YouTube. I feel like I ingest most of my information through YouTube. I wouldn't say that I have like any specific channels that I'm loyal to, but like I just do like a deep dive where I'll just watch like video after video after video of like everything to do with whatever it is that I'm interested in. I also have been into trying to, with limited success, trying to read on like on a weekly basis work-related things. So I had finished a book called The Lean Product Playbook a little while ago. I started Radical Candor, which has been interesting. So I try—

You put that there just to show off you have a book.

It's gonna look like product placement. I swear it's been on my desk. Nobody's gonna believe me though, of course. But yeah. So yeah, I've been trying to get into reading more often.

Maybe you can help us settle a quick debate. I know there are people that have been on this podcast, like I remember we had this conversation with John on those. Do you consider audiobook listening reading?

This debate's always funny to me. My stance on it is that, A, I think it's funny that people are opinionated about one or the other, but like to me, like reading is reading. Like if you want to talk about like, because it comes up because people are like, well, you didn't read that. So it doesn't count as a book that you read. It's like, yes, but I consumed the content. So like, if you want me to frame it as here's how much content I've consumed, then that's fine. But like, yeah, I don't know. Like reading to me is reading. Like you read the book. Listening is listening, right? Like you wouldn't say, what are they like? I don't know. You wouldn't listen and say you read, you wouldn't read and you wouldn't read a book and then say, I listened to it.

All right. I get behind that.

That's why I find that.

Well played. Well played.

But you still consume the content. So like, if you consume, like, here's how many books I consumed, then I think that's fine. But I am a huge audiobook listener.

I have opinions on, uh, the quality of the consumption of listening to versus reading.

I may just use the word consumed versus anything else ever again. Anytime I talk about it, I'm just going to say I consumed this, uh, this book. It doesn't matter. Like, they don't know if I read it or listened to it. Yeah.

Yep.

It's a fair point.

That's fair. That's fair. That's fair. Also, he had a question previously too about is QA better or— and I stopped reading because QA is better. Whatever the rest of that question was, QA is better. I'm just going to throw it out there. No bias or anything. I just— QA is— whatever the other comparison was, it's QA better.

Macro data refinement. QA is better. I'm done.

It doesn't matter what the— I'm just saying it doesn't matter what the rest of the question is. QA is better. I just— I may have an affinity for it, but that's okay. But no, yeah, but we're hitting up on time. But Brandon, I wanted to thank you for taking the time to sit with us and talk. I mean, I would've been disappointed if I wasn't able to have a conversation with the most famous thumbnail developer in HubSpot YouTube history. I aspire to be a close second. I'm not, but—

Close.

I'm one of those people too that I like pushing, that I like to get into something and I like to really go and You were, you were an inspiration to me. I just want to say, um, you know, so it's, uh—

He's never said that to me. He's never said that to me.

No, I definitely never had a handlebar mustache.

I did. I tried, man. I've tried, and it just, it's not— it's embarrassing. It truly is.

He has shown up to a family party with a handlebar mustache, and it did not go well for him.

He's a witness. It grows better up this way than out this way. I just, it, it It doesn't.

Yeah, I don't know if it's legal for me to say this, but that's Photoshopped on. I hope— I don't know if that's obvious or not. No, no, inside lore that now everybody in the podcast knows.

Yeah, yeah, I'm gonna delete this actually. No, I don't want that.

Damn it, this is why they say don't meet your heroes, because then you learn something and then it's like, I did not— I did not— I thought it was real. I honestly thought it was real.

I was like, wait, I'm getting too much praise for it.

But the thumbnail is so small. Like, even if it— like, it's either the best Photoshop in the world or the thumbnail is small enough where, like, the human eye— yeah, that doesn't lie. That's a good photo. I believe that. I do. How could you not? Like, there's nothing— there's nothing that says Photoshop there. Nothing. Like, I'm just like, that's quality.

You know, Brian Doherty over on the CMS? Yeah, just gave a huge compliment to his Photoshop skills.

There was— that's awesome. I thought that was awesome.

It's, it's not just the mustache, it's the fact that you know how to handle the mustache as well. I mean, like, that's the whole pose, everything was perfect.

Yeah, that's the important part.

Yeah, we're gonna start sending our thumbnails over to Brian now so that way— Why not?

That is Ben's artwork right there, I'm telling you.

No, I thank you for coming on, and, um, like I said, it's, um, these are the type of conversations And I say this every episode because we get lucky enough that every single guest is fantastic. And then we get to have these kind of like, they're not ones and zeros heavy, but there's a human aspect to it. And it's one of those things where it's like, I remember the first time actually we ever spoke, Brandon, was I think the meeting that we had with both of our teams, right? And it was like, and that was your suggestion, right? Which kind of goes along with some of the stuff that you've been saying throughout this podcast where it was like, being the extrovert and going out there and like trying to make this team building and getting like, you know, like you said about like one of the things that I think you had mentioned, I can't remember if it was either written or you had mentioned it earlier was like the, you know, the introvert is like what people think like it's not, right? It's going out there, making these connections, being across team, you know, participation. And that was one of the first experiences I ever had. And that was the first time I Like, technically met you, like, was in a meeting like that where that was your suggestion, that was the thing that you wanted to do. And it was like, it was really clear just from that moment on, it was like, this is one of the people that, you know, that this is who we have to talk to because these are the people like when we— no, I'm just saying when we created this, that those type of people with that type of mentality is like, that's who we want to talk to. That's what makes really great conversations.

So Brandon, if you want me to like clip this for you so you can send it to your manager. No worries. Yeah.

Yeah.

No, I really do appreciate it though. And that meeting was great. Yeah. Getting the teams together was— yeah, that was a lot of fun.

No, absolutely. And Dennis doesn't appreciate good comments because, I mean, you actually have to do good work to get good comments.

I've not had one of those before.

Just saying, Dennis. Just saying. But hey, the sky's the limit for you, Dennis. I mean, look at— look at—

Bar's low.

A lot of room for improvement.

That's right. That's right.

When you're on the ground, there's only up, right?

So it's—

I mean, when we have our next meeting where I have to evaluate both of you, I mean, you're, you're getting out there. It's good. You're doing good. Doing good.

So, well, yeah, I do really appreciate you guys having me on though. Uh, being on the, the best podcast in the world is a huge honor. It was a bucket list item of mine that I feel like now I can check off.

I'm going to be checking your LinkedIn resume later to see if it's on there as a—

Oh, good, good. Okay, good, good.

I was just gonna say, I just, I want to make, I want to make sure people are taking advantage of this. Great opportunity that we bestow upon them. So that's all. I'm just you know, I'm not you know.

This is going to slingshot my career. I'll give you guys easily, easily.

Perfect. It's in what direction? I think is the question you want to ask yourself.

Somewhere. I'll be in a different spot. That's all. It's a good way of looking at it.

But no, thank you again. And yeah, for everyone that our new our YouTube live. followers now. Thank everyone for tuning in. Uh, you know, anyone that visits the website, we really do appreciate that. And with that, I will leave you with a little bit of a, um, a little phrase from an American writer. His name is, uh, Elbert Hubbard, I believe is the way it's pronounced. But, um, I kind of took one of his quotes because I found it very, very instrumental. Um, for me, it is like, a friend is someone who knows your internet history and still loves you.

Hmm.

All right, I mean, we're done. This quote was in the 1900s. I just, I just upped it up a little bit and made it a little bit more relevant to today. That's all. So stream's ending.