Ep. 40 - Content Creation with Marc D. Hans | Devs:After Dark

Today's guest is, we'll say his career is not just nonlinear, but it's kaleidoscopic. Now, he is a self-proclaimed teacher's worst nightmare who's gone from that to an award-winning educator, a nonprofit founder, an innovative consultant, a former HubSpot professor, and even more important now, a senior content creator at Tango.

Mm-hmm.

So with that, we're gonna talk to him about this, about AI content creation and a whole lot more. Without further ado, let's roll. Hello and welcome to another wonderful episode. If you haven't checked out some of our previous episodes, I want you to go over to YouTube right now to the HubSpot Developers YouTube channel and and check out not just this episode, which you'll be watching, but previous episodes as well as other wonderful, wonderful content from both HubSpotters and external developers alike. And then don't forget, if you also— the best website you're ever going to want to go to is devsafterdarkpod.com. That's devsafterdarkpod.com, twice for Dennis.

Thank you.

Where you can see a little bit more about us and you can check out some of our back episodes as well. Now, with all of that out of the way, let's get to our guest because as I mentioned previously, he is, there are many, many, many hats that Mark has worn and he is a self-proclaimed teacher's worst nightmare, but he is also one of the premier content creators in the scene today. So Mark, why don't you tell everybody who you are and what you do?

Yeah, man, thanks for having me. I'm Mark from Chicago. I'm kind of on this journey, just kind of be as creative as possible, help people learn as much as possible. And I kind of do it through optimistic, kind, creative content. Kind of always had a camera in my hand growing up as a kid in the '80s. And now it's like a profession and we can do this and help people learn through video. And that's kind of what I do.

Now, before we jump into content creation and AI, I wanted to ask you, you had sent me a link to something that you were doing just previously, just not too long ago. 'Cause you talked about the kind content creation. What is that like? What drives you to want to do that? 'Cause there's people that create content and they just, and I don't wanna say it's just a lot of repetition and just like flooding the market with it, but what drives you to create that type of content that's actually meaningful and has that kindness element to it?

So, They say like, make the art you wanna see in the world, you know? And I'm like, I'm not a painter, I'm not a sculptor, you know? Like, I'm, you know, although I'm on Developers After Dark, I'm not a developer. Like, this is a craft that I have. It's a skill that I have. I have a vision where like, I want people to see the goodness in life. And so my way to do that, I'm not like running into buildings, you know, burning buildings, saving babies. And I'm not like a doctor. This is just one little way that I can make one little nugget in the world that hopefully sparks a little bit of creativity, some kindness in other folks. So yeah, like this is just kind of like what I do. It's the way that I can like get my little voice out into the world to try to make a little bit of change for goodness.

I love that. I love that. How do you preserve that creative voice in the world of AI though? 'Cause this is a lot of the questions we're gonna be talking about today is gonna slightly revolve around that because you wanna keep that unique creative voice, but then you also want to quickly produce content. So how do you preserve that?

So there's like this field of study. I worked it for years as like an innovation consultant in, in like the niche in which I worked was called design thinking. Design thinking is human-centered design. So it's not about designing a product or service. It's about finding people that have a pain or a challenge or desire learning. Like 80% of your learning in that work is figuring out what people want, what they desire, where the gap is, what the challenge is, and then just designing for that. So like not what you want, but what they need kind of a thing. And so the way that I think about creating content in the age of AI that still preserves a truly creative and optimistic lens and a genuine lens is always starting with the human. So a lot of the stuff either that I create or I create with people or the stories I'm pulling out of people, it always just goes back to the person. And whether that's like this morning, I was making stuff in the kitchen and my daughter was in there and I just had a thought that came in my head. I'm like, oh, this is a little nugget. I want to share this. And she's like, are you recording a video right now? I'm like, yeah, yeah, I'm putting my tripod on my phone right here as I make coffee to do this. So I think the way to stay human and genuine and creative in the age of AI is to really start with the human. What are the ideas, the thoughts, the desires, the challenges that we are having and others are having and lean into that versus let's feed the algorithm. Let's just make content for content's sake.

Yeah. I wonder, like, Just pull on that thread just a little bit. The need and the want. I'm thinking when you're talking to people, they can say they start talking and they don't even really know what they actually need. They have this like inkling of an idea of what they want, but that doesn't necessarily coincide or meet with the need. How do you adapt to that?

Yeah, I mean, so it's so funny if you think about the analogy of like a toolbox, right? Like a great Handy person has a toolbox, and they know if they need a wrench or a hammer or this or that. So, like throughout my career, I've been able to develop like these tools, these activities, these questions, these stems to to kind of get what's in people's hearts and in their minds out when they're not able to verbalize it. So, like one thing I have it like right back here, and my thing it's an old from an old workshop I ran, and it's a picture of a person that you sketch, and then it's like what are they thinking? What are they feeling? What are they wanting? And what do they need? Right? And so when we ask questions like that, right, you ask good questions. That will start to elicit what's kind of buried underneath all the BS that we all carry with us. And again, this is also on a human level. It's also on a business level, right? Like we have people trying to sell products that really can make people's lives better. There's software that exists for a reason, but if we're not tying it to a need, a desire, a pain that they're having in their business or their day-to-day work, then it's just like, it's just a tool. We want tools that help people do better, make their lives easier, get rid of the headaches, and enable them to do great work. So I, again, I think the short answer is dig deeper, ask good questions to people to kind of get out of them what's hidden. Yeah.

And I imagine there's a lot of iteration to, you know, to continue with that analogy of the toolbox. I'm sure everyone here has used a butter knife to, you know, as a screwdriver before.

Totally.

Not exactly the best tool in the world, but you know, it gets it done. And, and maybe you think that's as good as it gets until you actually keep on iterating and you find an actual, you know, screwdriver to, you know, replace. Yes.

Yeah, that's actually one great thing around that type of work is you look for what are called human hacks. And so there are ways that people work and people live where they don't even realize they're hacking something together when there could be a better solution. Like, if you've ever had anybody in your life that gets hurt, they walk with a walker. Everybody that walks with a walker has tennis balls. They take a tennis ball and they cut it and they put it on the bottom. Well, we don't need more tennis balls, we need better walkers. But nobody was like, Make a better fucking wire, right? So it's like, this is an idea of a hack. It's like, you know, on the tech side of things, like, how are we cobbling together different tools or different processes? Is there a tool that exists that like streamlines all of that? That's an example of finding a hack to figure out, can we make something better for them?

Nice. Now, with this creation of content too, like one of the questions that I was always thinking is the transparency of it, because you'll see this stuff and you'll doom scroll through your favorite social media platform and you'll see this continuous feed of content, but not all of it is very transparent as far as what uses AI and what doesn't. So how do you decide, like, and I guess like, what's, what's the level of transparency that you operate at? Because some of the stuff, I mean, I follow you, I stalk you on LinkedIn, just like I do a lot of great, great people. Where do you, where do you set yourself up as far as being transparent with?

I think about this probably in like 2 main ways. Like, and the first thing that came to mind is like, not all AI content is crap. Like, I think about it like sugar. Sometimes sugar's like, it's not good for you, but sometimes it's good. You go to the movie theater, get some M&M's, it's okay, right? You're like, you're at a carnival, get some cotton candy, dude, it's all right. Like, well, not for me, but like, you see what I'm saying? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So sometimes these, uh, yeah, right? You see these clearly AI-driven pages that are just serving up like non-faced content. It serves some purpose some of it's crap. So it's okay. Sugar's okay. To get to the question you asked is like, where is my transparency? If I'm, if I'm truly just creating something from AI, like there was a thing I did, I wanted to make these t-shirts and I just used AI to draft some ideas and I prompted it and I was like, all right. And I just said, hey, this is AI slop, but which of these like 3 to 5 designs do you all like the most? And I just call it out.

Yeah.

Now on the other side of things, like I will use like a trained GPT to take my thoughts Like, I'll make a video and then I'll like speak out the caption of what I want to say. And then I'll be like, hey, my trained GPT that optimizes captions and comments and descriptions for, for Instagram, for like reach and for engagement. I'm like, like, take my dumb words that come outta this like caveman mind of mine and like, it takes my words as they are, but it just will format it. So it'll make it like paragraphs. It'll like, if I'm typing something, my typing is horrendous, it'll like clear that up. I use it for that and I don't call it out because I don't know if, I don't know, like, I think like I would want to know that something was AI if I feel like the wool is trying to be pulled over my eyes.

Yeah.

Like if someone's trying to pull a quick one on me and like AI some stuff, I'm like, bro, call, like, it's clear that's, that's what it is. But in this example, I feel like these are my thoughts, these are my words. I need someone to like spell check it, you know what I'm saying? And like, Make it a little bit nicer. I, I would ask my wife to do that 'cause she's smart, but I could also just ask, you know, like a trained GPT to do that.

Would you have the same answer 2 years ago that you do now?

No.

Yeah. No. Well, I think as well. Yeah.

Yeah. I bet, I bet if you go on my Instagram and again, like, I think there's different content that I post on Instagram versus LinkedIn and like kind of like different crowds, but like, um, it's like an ongoing joke. Anyone I've ever worked with, they're like, your spelling is horrendous. And I never spell check it. Like, it's a joke. My New Year's resolution is that in Slack, I don't want any typos in my Slack. Like, people would be like, what are you trying to say? I don't, I can't even decode it. Your spelling is so bad. But yeah, 2 years ago, I don't think I was using AI in that way.

Oh no, I apologize. Let me, let me rephrase the question. I feel whenever I have used AI in the past, I had a guilt associated with it. Like it was like, This is not genuine content. Even if it's just correcting and cleaning things up, it's not fully me. I don't think I would say that now. I think that it enhances what I've already— I've got the ideas, it's me, and it enhances me. There's a stigma there, right? And I feel like we're almost to the point where we're beyond that stigma. This is just part of reality now.

100%. I agree with you. And even so, looking back, at least a year ago, I had an idea. I was like, ooh, I want to write a book. And I could And I'm like, well, that's not my book.

Like, that's what you wrote based on what I gave you.

Those are not my words. So, so again, like going back to like the use case of it is like, it all starts with something I feel, something I observe and I, and I think about, and then I will either speak it out onto like my phone, I'll write it out, I'll type it out, and then I can say, hey, make this so it's like, you know, someone can actually read it and make sense of it. And it's my words. Like, And then there's the little things like, hey, when I actually type and text to my, my wife and my friends and my kids, like I always, my grammar's horrible, but I'll always put like dot, dot, dot, like instead of like, like a dash or a period or whatever. Like, I'm like, this is what I type with. Make, make sure when you type and reframe this, it's how I do it.

Yeah.

Um, but I don't ever want it to make my words for me. I want them to, it needs to be, I don't feel good about it if it's something I didn't write. I guess is the easy way to say it.

If you've ever had the privilege of seeing me type in HubSpot Slack, it's ellipses on top of ellipses on top of— it is the worst. It's like, that's, I, it's like, I don't even know what commas and periods are. It's always, everything's just an ellipsis and it's such a bad habit. But yeah, no, I completely agree. And then using the word like constantly is another thing where it's like, when AI takes that out, there's a benefit to it, even though it's technically not me speaking better, but it is an enhancement where I don't feel necessarily as bad. And I think too, Dennis, to your question as well, it's like the saturation of it at this point is so undeniable because everything is using it no matter what and in every aspect, really. You like, there's, I was, I remember that one a couple episodes ago, there was, there isn't a YouTube video I can't watch without being inundated with probably 2 or 3 different AI tools being advertised. So it's everywhere at this point. So, but yeah, but no, I agree with you there. That's When it's enhancing and it's telling the story better without telling a different story, there's really no problem with that at all.

For sure.

For sure.

So, hey Mark, on your content creation part, as you're using AI, do you prompt it differently for different channels? Like if you were gonna be sending something to LinkedIn versus TikTok versus YouTube versus, you know, whatever else is out there that my old brain can't handle, do you do it differently? How do you make those decisions?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I will treat LinkedIn and Instagram differently. I'll have different trained GPTs to optimize for that. And it also depends on like what the content is, right? So if it is business content for Tango where I work during the day, like that has a very specific purpose versus like my personal content. And so I will prompt it differently. One, I will prompt it to make sure that it is using checking me to see like, can I add in any other phrases that might be trending from like an AEO or LLM perspective? Look, here's a better example. Right now at Tango, we're revamping our YouTube channel.

Yeah.

And we have, there's competitors obviously everywhere, but we're like, hey, like where in AEO and LLM search and YouTube search, where are the gaps between what they're doing, what we're doing, and where can, like, and I say like, Here's my strategy for YouTube. Here's what I've built. Here's what our goal is. Where do you recommend I start to edit maybe some of these titles, these descriptions, hashtags, et cetera, to optimize? Because at the end of the day, again, I want people to be able to find it if it's helpful. And if they can't even, if they can't find it, then it's not helpful. So I think that's more of the prompting I would do is like, for this platform, where will this perform best and where can we make sure that people are gonna see it?

This also seems like too, like a really good strategy to be able to combat against basically the sheer volume of people who are gonna be in that space with you. Because with AI, right, you're lowering the barrier of entry for people, right? Where before, where content creators, not that it was a niche thing that no one else could do, but let's face it, with AI, more people now can attempt it. Try it and start to become content creators where before the barrier of entry was not as low.

Yeah, man.

What you're describing here too seems like a really great just philosophy to have in general to kind of get ahead of the game as more and more people enter that space. 'Cause it's a lot different, I imagine, than, you know, if you go back, I don't know, 5, 10 years where it was, yeah, you're going to have more competition, but at this pace, it's like nothing we've ever seen before.

Yeah, it is. There are, I kind of feel like maybe a bad metaphor is like, it's like you're in the movie Gladiator and you are fighting a tiger and another warrior and like an eagle with spikes on its claws. And you're, because you're like, basically like you're fighting the algorithm, you're fighting all the slop that's out there. You're also fighting like, can people find it through search? So it's like, versus like back in the day, if you worked for a company, you had a feature launch or a product, it's like, great, We're going to make a video, we're going to put it on our channel, people that follow us are going to see it. That is not the case anymore. Even if people follow your channels, they still might not even see your content, right? So it's not enough, unfortunately, to want to put something out that is helpful to people. You have to do it in such a, like I say, sophisticated, but I hope folks don't think it's like crazy, but it's like you do have to think about How is it titled and does that serve well in search? If it's like YouTube content, like the packaging of your YouTube content, your thumbnail imagery, the words on your thumbnail, the description of the YouTube video, like all of that, I guess it is pretty sophisticated. So you're, it's again, 5 years ago, you can make a piece of content, throw it online, people would see it. Nowadays, you have to take a few more steps To make sure people see it. It's kind of like I'm a diabetic. You can never just leave the house as a diabetic. You're like, I need my snacks. I need extra insulin. I need this. You can't just— yeah. Right.

You got a hot dog bag with like power bars in it. Yeah.

Yeah.

I'm with you.

I'm literally—

we're in the same— I love that we're in the same boat. And I didn't know that either until we talked previously. And it was just— now let me ask you, uh, 'cause Dennis did this to me with, uh, some of our earlier podcasts. Do you use AI to poke holes in some of your, uh, any of the content that you create or any of the stuff you're creating? Because Dennis did that to me with, with this podcast actually, where he had a, uh, what was it?

Brutal Critic is what I called it.

What was it?

Brutal Critic.

Yeah, it, well, it was, it was, it was more like, I'm gonna talk you down till you're about this big. Yeah, that's what it was. But do you, do you ever do that with your stuff too?

Sometimes. I don't think to like that level, but like, I will look at it again, again, more so on the side of like, What can I do to make this better so that the people that need to see it see it? Because on the, I guess maybe you used the words iterative earlier, Dennis, right? And I think like early on I was really keen on like, what is the formula? What is the script format for like a good YouTube B2B SaaS video, right? And then you translate that into learning about what performs better on other channels. And they, you know, you always hear about like the hook.

Yeah.

Right? And like the body and like now like this company VEED put out a great report at the end of last year where it's like, dude, like if you are not changing things every 3 seconds, people are gone, right? And that's mostly on like short-form social, like Instagram, TikTok, et cetera. And that could be anything from like a camera angle, it could be to like a transition, it could be a zoom in, it could be, you know, something on screen. But every 3 seconds, things gotta pop. But then like for some of the work I do with Tango, it's like, People are coming to solve a problem. They're using our product and they wanna know, how do I do this thing? You don't wanna switch every 3 seconds 'cause the user experience is like, I found this video, it says it's gonna tell me how to do this thing. I'm gonna scrub that video till I find that chunk. I need to watch it, see how to do it, and get back to work. So again, it goes back to like having a good script, having a good brief, having good reason why we're making this. To then make sure like you're actually doing what needs to be done. I don't think I've done the brutal critic level, but I think after this I'm going to.

I guess I'm the lucky one, apparently. Let me ask you, is there a— because like I said at the beginning, we talked about that kaleidoscope of just the things that you have as far as experience-wise. Is there sort of an educator's advantage in this when you're creating the content? Because like you said, you were an award-winning educator. Does that bleed into some of the things that you're doing as far as the content creation?

Yeah, I think like maybe, you know, there's like, if you're like an— like folks that are athletes, like if you're really good at one sport, you play another sport, you'll bring something to that. And I like cross-training in some way. I feel like this is like academic-y, you know, learning cross-training. So like when I was an educator, like there are theories of education of how to engage somebody, how to check for learning, what are the goals that you're trying to achieve? So I take elements of that into all the things I've done. I think maybe the short way to say it is we are all the culmination of these shared learning experiences and failures and challenges and insights we've had along the way to bring us where we are here. We don't just get a job and like, oh, I'm a new guy now. I'm just going to do this. It's like, dude, you're the person you always been. And so, yes, I think specifically when it comes to content, and this, again, there's elements of artificial intelligence in this, but the way I always think about it is they used to call it backwards design was the model. And it starts, it's 3 phases. It's like, what is the goal? What do you want somebody to know or be able to do? That's like where we start. The second part is where can you gather like acceptable evidence that they know how to do that, or they know what you want them to know, or they can do what you want them to do. And then where do you get that evidence? Then you just design to get that evidence, right? So it's like, you know, like during my time at HubSpot, it'd be like, oh, we want people to, you know, know how to create an email list within like Marketing Hub, right? So wait, great. If that's what we want them to know, how will we know if they do it? It's like, oh, we'll be able to see a screen share maybe that they've gone in, they've created the list, they've shared the list with us, and we could see the evidence is there. Great. If we need that evidence of a screen share, now you design the learning experience to say, cool, we have to show them what is this? How do you access it? How do you build it? How do you screen share it? Send it to us, and now we've reached our goal. So this backwards design model, I think, is always in the back of my head, right? What do we want people to know or be able to do? How do we know if they do it? Let's design the quickest way to get them to learn to do that.

I, I feel like this, that could almost be a black hole though, right? How, how do you discover when, um, goal can have a series of subsets of goals, correct? And, and if you don't know when to stop, like what, how do you chunk that out?

Yes. So to answer your question, yes, goals do have series of subsets of goals. I think what we have to always think about is like the end user learner's experience.

Okay?

So if the goal is massive, you do wanna chunk it out. It all really depends on a few things. One is like, what's the learning environment? Is this a long-form thing? Like at HubSpot Academy, we had these long certification classes. They took like hours to do. We then found people just wanted to know one thing. I don't need a certificate. I need to know how to do this one thing. So you make little short videos there, and those small goals for those small micro content feed into the larger goal. And so there is no perfect solution, I think, Dennis, to when is it right to have a massive goal? When is it right to have a smaller goal? I think we all have to be asking ourselves this question is like, how can we be most helpful to people? And sometimes people need long-form content to help them really learn something deeply. Sometimes they just need a 30-second snippet to tell them how to do something.

Yeah, I hear that. I'm trying to translate into this to my own failures as a developer. I suffer from scope creep and it, I've always suffered from it and I suffer from it more now because I have this AI companion that can, you know, push out code for my little features, you know, so quickly. So like goal, I keep on adding additional goals to, I'm not even really sure where I'm going with this question. I guess, how do you check yourself to make sure that you are staying within the parameters of a stated goal without, you know, creeping outside of that?

It's a good question. I think depending on like the type of project or what it actually is, Well, actually, the thing that comes to mind here is there's this theory of the gap and the gain. If you've ever heard it, it's kind of like we tend to judge ourselves on the gap that exists between where we are and where we think we should be or deserve to be. And we judge ourselves, we beat ourselves up, but we rarely say, oh, there's actually little gains we're making every day to close that gap. Right? And so I think if you take kind of like that human That human lens on what you're saying of like, I have a project, it has a goal, that goal keeps, that scope keeps creeping and growing and growing. I think it goes back to like some sort of a check-in, like, hey, we do have an objective measure here. Did we do this, this, this, this, and this?

Yeah.

If there's 10 micro steps to meet that goal and we've hit 8 of 'em, maybe you do add on a few more to kind of keep that creep going. It's, you know, it's like, it's like this, It's like a timebox thing I do. I don't know if you can see that, but it's like, basically, it like helps you block time throughout your day and like list your priorities for the day. And I think that like maybe that is a way, because what I hear you saying, Dennis, is you can move so much faster now that a stated goal or a stated scope of a project easily expands because things are moving so much faster.

Indeed.

And so maybe, you know, in developer speak, is it the backlog grows or the, the task list or the punch list grows? I, I think maybe the answer is like, Be objective with what needs to get done and then just keep good tally on that. But, oh, hey man, we got these 5 things done. We can add another 5 on.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And just, uh, I'm gonna plug our last show. Actually, it was just released today, uh, which would not be today when this is recorded, released. But, um, our Nick asked Simon, the guy we, uh, we talked to last time about, you know, um, how, what was the question? How you celebrate your, or what, what, Let me start that over. The answer was from Simon. He said, I have to stop every once in a while and realize that I actually completed a goal and just take some time to reflect on that. I don't remember what the actual question was, Nick, but it was something very important. It was like, you had a stated goal 6 months ago. Things keep on evolving, keep on changing, but you actually completed that goal and you kind of pushed forward without actually celebrating.

Yeah, it was because of the pace at which that he works, and it's always hard to take a step back and then enjoy and actually like celebrate in the milestones that you're hitting because there's always that next one. And I think too, a lot of it was because of the fact that when you have AI tools now and you have like MCP connectors and you have MCP servers in which all these tools talk together, the possibilities that you can now dream up Where before we used to be like, oh, you dream it and maybe one day, because, and again, to reference a previous episode when we talked with Karen, we talked about having the idea but not having the technology to get there yet. Right. So it's always this thing in the back of your head where it's like, oh, one day the perfect thing will be when we can do this. Well, we've reached a kind of like a point now where a lot of those type of thoughts Kind of go out the window because you can, whether it's by one AI tool or whether it's by an army of AI tools working together so that, like you're saying, that scope creep gets infinite because all you got to do is sit down and be, yeah, I wonder what if I could do this? Well, you can. Well, what if I could do this? And then that list just continues to grow and grow and grow. So yeah, Simon was talking about taking a step back and actually celebrating the wins as they come because there's always going to be that next thing based on All the scope creep that you can possibly pull into a project. So, um, but yeah, that's, uh, that's one of those things too that always, I seem to always plague people constantly.

Yeah, we, there's no, you're 100%. If you can dream it, you, it's just a matter of time before you figure out the right way to bring it together with the tech that we have now. It is. And the rate at which it is, it is growing is, it's, it's no longer a hockey stick curve. Like it is a rocket ship.

Yeah.

And it's going from a rock— it's like one rocket ship to 30 rocket ships to 100. It is, especially on your end. I mean, when we think about what things like Claude Cowork with Codex right now is doing, I mean, it's insane, dude. I think, again, like, not to bring it back to this human level, you know, but it is really this gut check. Like, side tangent, I just saw this thing about this famous actor that passed away. This guy James Van Der Beek passed away, and he had this beautiful talk about how, you know, when he was an actor and that was his identity, and it was like, uh, he's like, but then I became a husband. I was like, oh my God, I just want to be a great husband. That's my identity. And then he's like, then I became a father. I was like, oh my gosh, this is my identity. I can be a strong presence and a role model and a strong man, and I can be a provider. And then he got cancer and he's like, dude, my entire identity went out the window. I can no longer be there for the kids every day. I'm not strong enough. I can't take out the trash. I can't be there for my wife to help out. I got to be treated like, what is my identity? There is a similar, not nearly at that level, but a gut check for developers right now to be like, whoa, I spent all these years of my career trudging and grinding and learning and reading and failing to get to this point. And now it could be done very quickly with this other way. What's my role? What's my identity? You know what I'm saying?

Yeah.

This to me, that I think is gonna be a lot harder for people to swallow than what can the tech do? 'Cause it's like, what do I do now? What is my role as a human with my passions, my insights, my creativity? Where can I now, what can I now do? Kind of like what you were saying, Nick, what can I dream up now to get it done faster, quicker to see if it's real?

I love that. What is the, I guess a question that I would have for you then is a little bit tongue-in-cheek, but so then with this sort of educator's advantage and teaching this and making content, what's the difference between teaching a 3rd grader and teaching a developer, or is there a difference at that point?

No, man. I feel like, I do feel that like, I would love— they talk about like code switching sometimes in life, right? Like maybe you're talking to like Dhar Mann, you know, like Dhar Mann, you might talk a little different than like your buddy, whatever. But like, yeah, I don't know. Is there something wrong with teaching everybody like they're in 3rd grade? Like, do our big— like, is it that it's like the language is different, the big words are important, or is it more about Like the speed at which we can expect somebody to learn something. I kind of think nowadays, most people, the more intelligent we get, the shorter our attention spans have become. Our learning methodology is like, I'd rather watch a TikTok to show me how to do something than go read the book to do it, because then I can do it quicker in some ways. So, yeah, I don't know if there's really much of a difference. Again, I think it goes back to who are you trying to serve? Why are you trying to help them? What service do they really need and help do they need? And what's the best way to reach them?

Man, I think there is a difference between teaching a 3rd grader and a 45-year-old because I think, you know, we talked about this before, like this is all about wisdom. There are so many things that a person who is that much older than a 3rd grader can handle, mentally handle. There are words to describe things. They always say like the Alaskans have, or the Eskimos have, you know, 1,000 words for snow, right? They have those thousand words for snow because they know what snow is, whereas I just see things coming from the sky. You know what I mean?

Yeah.

Yeah. Gimme one sec, guys. I gotta plug something in here.

I've always been a big fan of explain it to me like I'm a 5th grader.

You know, I understand that for some, some, some like tutorial type things perhaps, but like when you get into complex subjects, you just can't operate that way, I don't think. It only goes so far.

No, that's fair.

I hear you. Sorry, my camera fell. I hear you. I agree with you. It makes sense. And I think it also goes back to what is the context? If we are sitting in a professional setting and this is like we're in person and we're going deep, makes sense. I think maybe the framing I was looking at is like, oh, I create learning content, B2B SaaS. Somebody just wants something quick. Like that's, That's kind of more the world I'm currently living in. But like on the other side of my life, like I, you know, like I coach people, like I'm a professional coach. I coach people. We sit, we talk, we debate. Like at that point, like that shared learning experience of being a human or a creative or an executive, that is a very different conversation.

For sure.

Sure.

I guess it's like a calibration, right? Like take the word third grader and just say like just the average of all people that you're trying to communicate to.

Yeah. Yeah, it's a good point.

Let's talk about, 'cause this is kind of like my favorite part of the, the show here is where we start to get a little, know a little bit more about who Mark is right now. You had mentioned earlier, uh, throughout this conversation there's been a couple of good metaphors and you even said yourself some of 'em were bad, but I don't think they are. Uh, there's one you have about life that I was wondering if you could tell us about, but, uh, the donut metaphor. Can you tell us a little bit about that? Like what, what's, 'cause like I said, I stalk you on LinkedIn and no, no secret there. What's with the metaphor about donuts in life?

Well, I really like donuts. I enjoy them as a treat. But one thing I found is I do donut reviews on my Instagram. I'm not a big drinker. And when we go to these conferences, everyone's like, oh, let's go to this happy hour. And it's loud and some people drink too much and it's just weird. So it's like I started hosting morning Coffee and donut happy hours. And I've just found that what I like about them and the metaphor is it lowers the barrier for kindness. I feel like it's just warm and it's inviting and it's inclusive in some ways. And I've always said they're sweet, they're simple, they're creative, they're shareable. And I travel quite a bit, and when I go to a donut shop or I talk to people about donuts, Some people, like most people will have a story about a donut. It's like, oh, my old man used to take me out for a donut on Sunday mornings or after games, blah, blah, blah. Or like, we did a thing when I was a kid. And it's like, again, that is human connection to me. And I feel that I like to bring human connection to everything I do. Not that there's anything wrong with professional discourse, blah, blah, blah, but I'd rather know who I'm talking to and know more about them. So that we can like actually have connection and a reason to learn, a reason to help each other.

No, I love that. That's it. What is, are there any type of, I was gonna ask about like pivotal moments or key milestones that you've had thus far? 'Cause there was one of 'em that I saw, I think it was in your LinkedIn that I was really actually quite envious of because of the subject matter of it. And it was the co-founding of the Dropkit.

Yeah.

That was like, yeah. So there's some things that you've done. I mean, like I said, your career is, it's—

Back up. What is this? Tell me everything about it.

Yeah. Yes. Okay. You guys know Seth Godin? Do you know who that is? Like the author, the speaker, et cetera. He has this great quote about like living a life of projects, right? And like, I think that might be like a good lens for this is like, I can clearly look back on my life and be like, oh, there were just projects. Like I started a nonprofit, profit with like my skateboard buddy. Like, we're like, dude, should we just start a nonprofit that helps like inner city kids and connects them with like mentors from like Google? We're like, yes. So like, that was a project. Drop Kit was an idea that, um, so I'm a type 1 diabetic and before we had all these fancy devices, you always had to carry a kit with you where you could like prick your finger and get the blood on the machine. And since I was, you know, like 12 years old and I'm almost 50, I've always carried this stuff with me. And when I would like go on dates or whatever, like, you know, like you bring this like, The kit that it comes in is this ugly little black nylon. It's just crap. And you always have to carry it with you and it sucks. And so one day I was at a farmer's market and this lady comes out to me. She goes, oh my gosh, I follow you on Instagram. She's like, I'm a designer. I'm like, oh, what do you design? She goes, oh, I design high-end men's goods. I work for Coach and I do leather belts and wallets. I was like, yo, you should make a sick, nice leather men's pouch to carry like my diabetic stuff in so it looks nice. And a few weeks later, I get a DM on Instagram. She goes, oh my God, I was thinking about your idea. Like, we should talk. I'm like, what idea? She's like, the diabetic leather thing. I was like, oh, I like, I was just talking shit, you know? And she's like, no, let's meet. So we met and within a month we started a company and we went through this process. We got a, like a, you know, like a warehouse that would make 'em and a manufacturer. And we made about 2,000 of these things and sold 'em and they were awesome. And like, Yeah. So that's a pivotal moment. It's like I learned a lot. It was not a successful company. Like to sell on Amazon sucks. They take all your money. Nobody can find it. But we knew when the people got it, they really liked it. And it was this great tool that we iterated over time to design and show to people and like, what else would you want in this thing? And I still have, I use 'em for like my cords now for my phone. I use it like for everything, dude. They're great. But yeah, that was like a cool little, probably about a 2-year little 2-year stint that I was just doing that on the side. It was like super fun.

That's really cool. Do you, how do you, because there's going to be failures with projects, right? How do you, I mean, this is more advice because clearly you've got this mastered. How do you keep on going? Like if you have a failure, what makes you go to the next one? What makes you not give up?

I once heard somebody say the opposite of happiness is not sadness. The opposite of happiness is boredom. And so I like to not be bored. And so I learn, I don't look at failure again, this is like such a cliché thing, but like, I really don't look at failure as like failure. I think given what I've learned is that given time and space and reflection, we can then look at our failures in lots of different ways through a different lens. Sometimes in relationships we're like, oh, that relationship sucked. Like I was the victim. In time you're like, nah, really? You could have done better.

Right?

And so same thing with business failures. Like, dude, I can look back through my career and be like, oh my gosh, they did not renew my contract at this place I worked at. And I was like, ah, this sucks. In time, I'm like, I would've been miserable there. I was miserable there. They did me a favor. And so learning from failures, being— I think one thing failures on the good side, what they teach you is good belief in yourself, right? When a failure occurs, you should learn something from it. Rather than just throw it off as a loss. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. I was just talking to somebody, when I was a kid, I wrestled in high school, junior high and high school. Greatest lesson in your life, you can't blame anybody else. It is just you and another dude, and either you win or you lose. And this is the lesson I think probably is what shaped me as a dude is you need to be gracious in victory and humble in defeat. You translate that to your life, your passions, your projects, your work, your relationships.

Yeah.

For sure. Hey man, sometimes things don't work out and sometimes it's all on you and that's totally okay. You can learn how to do it differently or better or just not do it again next time.

So was wrestling when you figured this out, where this all clicked, or was it later on in life where this whole philosophy clicked for you?

I think there were different depths of click throughout my life.

Oh yeah, for sure. Yeah, that makes sense.

You know what I'm saying? Like there was, I remember like, I was like, I'm a chubby guy and I was a chubby kid. So like I was always a heavier weight class and I would wrestle these guys. They were like, they were like, What are we, like 14 years old? They had mustaches, they looked like men, they had muscles. And I'm like this porky little kid in this tight spandex singlet. And I remember the same kid I wrestled every year. I couldn't make it more than 15 seconds with this kid. He would pin me. It was embarrassing. And every year I'm like, oh my God, Juan again, dude. And then one year I just got so angry that I had done so many repetitions of learning and learning and practicing and drilling and getting beat up that I kind of just got angry and I went And I like took this dude down, just like a solid double leg. And I was like, oh, that's what that feels like. Click. Still lost, still got pinned, still embarrassed. But I was like, holy shit, that's what that feels like. I'm gonna chase that now. It's a different level of click.

Yeah, yeah, I hear that. Like, I didn't get— I know you skateboard, right?

Like, oh man, that's a good learner, man.

Like, the first time I, uh, went on a halfpipe and I, um, I just knocked the wind out of me for the first time in my life. It's like, oh, I'm done with this altogether. So I did not, nothing clicked there for me other than don't skateboard anymore.

Yeah. You know, that's a really good point, Dennis, is like, there are, you know, like there's so many different types of people, even as like, you know, like there are no, there are categories, but to those categories and labels of people, they're all different. Like not all developers are the same. Maybe there's some traits, maybe there's some whatever, but it's like, We all learn so differently. We operate and navigate life so differently. So what works for one might not work for another. But there are no doubt, as I think back, the things that I've done, either kind of like relationships, career choices, hobbies and activities, life events, they tend to be very lesson-giving Activities, skateboarding, lacrosse, even yoga, all these things, you're like, oh, there's a gradual learning curve where there is no, oh, there is no mastery, right? There's this old Buddhist quote, it's like, you're falling, you're falling, you're falling, but the good news is there is no bottom. So it's like being at peace with the fact that you're a developer, we develop stuff. And I worked all my life to learn how to develop stuff. Now I like doing it, but now with all these other tools, like, who am I? It's okay. There's going to continue to be a whole life ahead of us that we should just realize this is just a chunk of it and there is no bottom to hit.

Nick, we're done. We solved it. It's good.

I love that.

I love that. Well, I mean, one thing, we're never going to get an Amazon sponsorship. Thanks, Mark. Appreciate that. And number 2, I do, there's nothing like being on a first date and having to pull out your glucose meter and then have your date ask you, Are you, uh, like a drug addict?

Yeah.

Okay. Thanks.

Good. We're good. Thanks.

Yeah.

So no, I, there's, uh, but no, I, I like the, I, I like that. Um, I like that quote about there not being a bottom. You're just falling and you're never gonna, 'cause I, I think it's hard to pull yourself back. Like when you're in that free fall, the pulling back up, so to speak, is probably one of the hardest things. And I think the philosophies that you have are fantastic as far as like being human-centric. And I do appreciate, and I'm actually kind of envious of like the, I guess you would call it the trying to find the good in a lot of the content that you create and some stuff like that. I just, I don't feel a lot of people do that. I'll be quite honest. Do you get that when you see some of the stuff? Because I mean, obviously you're in the space, so the competition is there. Do you notice that sometimes that that's lacking that sort of empathy?

Yeah. I mean, like, I do think in, like, in all honesty, like, I fell into the trap where like, oh, your, like, YouTube B2B SaaS YouTube videos should look a certain way. Like, people have come to expect it in some ways. It's almost like if you went into like a, like, like an ice cream shop, but there were no cones and no bowls, you'd be like, what? Like, what are we, what are we doing here? Right? So it's like, I was like, oh, do I need to look like these other and talk like these other people? Like jump zoom. Like, are you trying to learn how to do this? Let me show you how. Like, it just, it sucks your soul. So I think that I've fallen, you know, it's like, you know, like, like if you think about basketball, like there have been players that they're in the NBA, but they play so differently, you know, like Jason Williams, Allen Iverson, Magic Johnson, Jason Kidd. These are like point guards that like, They played so excitingly, so different than other people, but they were still playing the same game. So I think that yes, there is a trap that you're like, hey, we're, let's just be honest, this is the job, this is what we're trying to do. It fits into this screen in this way. How can we make it some way human? How, like, like we even started doing, or I started doing a thing like at the end of like these YouTube videos for Tangerine, I'll be like, hey, if you have any questions, like leave a question below and I'll answer 'cause I'm a real person. Right? I feel like sometimes people miss the step of being like, hey man, I'm Mark, I'm from Chicago. Like, let me show you how to do this thing. Like, I just feel like that's important. This is a big debate, by the way, in AI content creation is there are a lot of really good AI avatar, you know, basically for folks who don't know, like you can prompt a tool and say, I want a middle-aged, you know, Caucasian male in this type of setting with the lighting on his face this way, and this is what he's teaching people to do, like, it's good. It will work. It's not human, but it's okay. And it does work for some companies that can't hire like a content creator. My antidote, or my people say like, is that gonna take your job? I'm like, no. And like, not, it's because like, I'm Mark and like, you are Dennis and you are Nick. There's not another, like, you are Dennis. That, that you are Dennis. That's it. I'm Mark. So like, I don't think anyone's gonna take that from me, Because I'm me. That sounds very, I don't know, egotistical. And I don't mean it that way.

No, no, not at all.

I mean, there's ego, right? So you're supposed to have that. It's like part of you.

Yeah, yeah. But that's what makes me me. It's like someone's like, well, I'm like, oh no, that was the first skateboard I ever owned. That is a picture of my son. This is like, these are all my things. This is me. This is my life. I'm in my house. This is my basement, dude. Like, you could even recreate this in AI, but it's just not me, man.

I'm me. Yeah. Yeah. One question, and this, I don't wanna get into like a therapy session here, but I, you speak very positively, but I have a feeling you're the type of person who might have some, you know, like negative thoughts too. Like you might spiral a little bit, right?

How do you— I'm the king. I'm the king of downward spirals.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I had a feeling. So how do you deal with that then? Like, seriously, like that, you can say I'm me and all that stuff, but when you're at that point, how do you get out of that?

It's hard. So I like to say that when good things and bad things both spiral uphill and downhill. So when things are going great, you know, like, like, like you'd be like, hey, I'm going to do some extra pushups today. Oh, you do extra pushups? Hey, I'm going to drink extra water. Good things encounter good things. Then you're like, oh my God, Uh, you know, something didn't work out the way I did. Oh, that sucks. I'm stupid. How am I even here? Imposter syndrome. Eh. Um, so I do think that like, there are a few things that have definitely helped me, and this is like, this has nothing to do with Developers After Dark. This is the people that are developers listening to this.

That's important, right?

Um, right. Okay. So a few things here. Cut 'em, edit, whatever you wanna do. Number one, you should only speak, try to speak to yourself the same way you would speak to your loved ones, right? The negative self-talk we say to ourselves when things are going shitty, we would never say that to your wife, your partner, your spouse, to your kids. You would never say that to your kids. Catch it. So number one is we have to become aware when it's happening. So in meditation, we call it noting. You're like, oh, wait a minute, dude. I'm saying these things in my head right now. Just note it. Then the second question is, would I say this to my loved one? If the answer is no, Try to take a breath, try to move on. So number one is like noticing self-talk. Number 2 is like, dude, if you work for a company and you have health insurance, get a therapist, dude. Therapy is rad. Therapy is amazing. Like, I have a therapist, I have a coach, I coach other people, but I have a coach. I journal and meditate every morning. One thing I think that is like really good for high performers or people in high stress jobs or people whose maybe jobs are being questioned by, you know, This technology taking over every morning. And part of my journal, I'll actually share it with you guys if you want after, so I'll just like email it to you. But I have like a journal I've developed over years. In one section of it every morning is I write down my fears and my resentments every morning. I get them out of my head and I just own it. I'm like, oh my gosh, I'm worried about this. I'm doing it like, is this going to work out? What do people think?

Blah, blah, blah.

I write it out and I own it. Because if we don't, like all of this just will just linger up here and start to kill us, dude. So I think like the big picture is like becoming aware of it and noting it when it happens. That is the hardest part. The easy part is then like, oh, okay, well it's just there and it's just a thought. And I'll leave you with one other thing that is really, really good. I'm coaching somebody right now, like through this, but I like to think of it in terms of court. So like, if you have a negative thought in your head, like, oh my God, I'm doing terrible. They all, everyone at work hates me. I'm gonna get fired tomorrow and they're gonna make a billboard that's like, Dennis is the worst human being ever. I was gonna say, you've been reading my head, man.

Get outta my head.

You read my Slack messages?

Is that what's going on?

Exactly.

Thanks. So, so here's the thing.

Okay. Note it.

Oh my God, I'm talking bad to myself. Then you say, cool, where is the, if I had to go to court right now and the judge was like, Dennis, we're here today. To put you on trial for being the worst human being ever and terrible at your job. Where is the evidence? The physical evidence? Where's the emails, the voice transcriptions, the screenshots of messages that you've got? Where's the physical evidence to support this case? 9 times out of 10, you could actually gather physical evidence to defend, to refute that case rather, right? To be actually, somebody just texted me like, hey man, great job. Thanks for helping me out.

Yeah.

Positive, right?

Most of the time there's no physical evidence to support the claim of the negative self-talk that we have in our head. So think about an evidence-based approach. You're like, oh, actually there's nothing there. It's just a thought.

So when you write that stuff down in the journal, is that the only time then you look at it is while you're writing it down? Or do you go back to it throughout the day as well?

I tend to go back to it if I notice recurring patterns of thought. Right? Like, all honesty, I don't even know why I'm saying this on a public podcast. People have weird relationships with money. We feel like we're selfish if we ask for more. We feel like we never make enough. We're worried about it. Like, we're just weird with money. And one thing I tend to write down, I've noticed over the last few months is like, I'm worried about money, right? And then I think like, oh, well, let me check my bank account. Should I be worried? And I'm like, okay, well, bills are paid. House is okay. Kids have mother— Okay. I think the evidence will support like we're okay right now. So it's like, it's a thought that is not rooted in any evidence. So I do go back to it. If I start to notice there's a repeated pattern of thought of that fear, I want to address it.

AJ, we need like a breaking news thing where I could be like, breaking news, Mark is worried. Breaking news. But no, that's a really good, I like that idea too, because that's a really Because what I end up tending to do is just have those thoughts rain through my head the entire day and not really get them out or validate them or invalidate them. So that's— I like your approach a lot better. Yeah.

So here's another quick thing, man. They're all— they're not bad. They're all there for a reason, right? Like, if you have a fear that is creeping into your head, it is your body's way of trying to trigger something to protect you, maybe, right? And so give it some honor. My coach has a thing where I forget what the technique is called, but he names them. When he's negative self-talk, he calls it, it's a name, but it's a Coach So-and-So. It's like an old high school coach of his that was like, kid, you're never good enough. You're the slowest kid out here. And he's like, all right, Coach, what are you doing here? Why are you talking to me like this? Why are we here? Engage with it, honor it. And then be like, okay, I hear you. I see you. I don't need to go down that rabbit hole right now. So like, it is, it's noting it, kind of honoring it in some weird way, you know? But then like, again, like you would never talk like that to your loved ones. So why do we talk to ourselves that way? We would never do it. We're all worthy of goodness. And again, like in the context of this podcast, people that watch this podcast, you have a stressful job. Your work goes public and there is, you know, I can only assume, like I know the trepidation I get when I put publish on a video. When you push a line of code or when you push something out, buddy, buddy, if it goes to shit and like everyone's just, your Slack's like, boom, what's going on?

Okay. Okay.

Okay. Tim Ferriss talks about we have to be really good at making non-fatal reversible decisions, right? Is anybody going to die? Can I always go back and fix it later? If so, we're going to be okay. And also, if the worst case scenario happens and you screw up, And they can you, you'll find something else. Most important thing is to be kind to yourselves. You're doing, we're all doing the best we can, man. There's nothing wrong with that. And what do they say? They say, give it 100%. Uh, and on the days you can only give 40%, give 40% and you're giving 100%. Just be kind to yourself, dude.

Look at that. Well, Mark, I want to say thank you for coming on because this was, this has been really, really great. Is there any place that people can find you that you want them to, uh, Take a look at and check out?

Yeah, for sure, man. Instagram is Mark D. Hans. It's M-A-R-C-D-H-A-N-S. LinkedIn is the same, Mark D. Hans. Those are the 2 places I publish most of my content. And my website is just Mark D. Hans. Just out there trying to help people navigate life with a little bit of kindness to themselves, optimism, and some creative stuff. Excellent.

Thank you so much. This has been great. I've been wanting to talk to you for the longest time because you live close to me and AJ, and then And when I, you know, finding out about the diabetic stuff, that was really cool 'cause, you know, honestly, I haven't ran into, and from on a professional level, too many people who also had juvenile diabetes, you know, so it's been very cool. So I wanna say thank you. And again, everyone who's listening or watching, you can check us out on the HubSpot Developers YouTube channel, or you can also check us out at devsafterdarkpod.com. We really appreciate everybody listening. And Amazon, if you are watching or listening, I just ordered something yesterday. So can you just wait to just, I just let the delivery go out first. I really, I really need what I ordered. So if you could just hold off, you know, it would be, it would be great. Thank you. So, but no, again, thank you to everybody who's watched and listened. And again, Mark, thank you. And yeah, we'll see you next time.

Boom.