Ep. 31 - SEO in the AI World Part 2 with Michelle Jensen | Devs:After Dark

Way to go. Way to break.

Well, this is why this it heard real estate and went nah. Yeah, that's exactly what happened.

I know it is. Okay.

Hello everyone, welcome to Developers After Dark. We have a great episode coming up right now for you. We're going to be talking about, again, AI and SEO in the AI world. It's something that we're starting to do these where we want to not just create like one-offs, but like have sort of like in-depth conversations with multiple people about like particular subjects. And this one in particular is one that affects everybody right now, especially with the the way AI is advancing and the way that we have such a rapid change in both the technologies and the way things are implemented. These type of conversations are the ones we'd love to have and we will get to our guests in just a second. But before we do that, let me pay just a couple of bills real quickly. Of course, everybody knows— and did I just freeze?

No.

I did a little bit. Everybody knows that this is exactly the place you want to go is devsafterdarkpod.com where you can see previous episodes. You can read a little bit about what the show is about if this is the first time you've ever seen it. And if you want to get some really, really good information, you want to go to @HubSpotDevelopers. Our YouTube channel has everything you're going to need to know, especially now that we are at the time of recording this. Inbound just ended last week, uh, for all HubSpotters. There is so much information on there that you're going to want to see. It's a lot of roundups A lot of kind of summaries of everything that kind of went on there and anything that they talked about, new technologies, anything like that, new products, updates, upgrades, everything you'd want to know is going to be there as well. And then a special shout out too to @InboundStudio on YouTube because you'll be able to watch, because we're talking about AI today, You to the Power of AI. Dharmesh did a really good talk about that and it pretty much covers Quite a bit of information and the way it's delivered. Our CEO has a really great like way of just delivering everything, right? So Dharmesh is really fantastic at that. So go take a look at that too. And that's @InboundStudios, that YouTube channel as well. You'll be able to watch that entire video as well as kind of summaries of everything that went on at Inbound, other speakers and things like that. So if you want to too, if you wanna know what's going on in the developer world, you're gonna go to developers.hubspot.com. That is developers.hubspot.com/changelog. Twice for Dennis since he's not here today. But you're going to be able to find out what's going on in the development community, not just now but in the future as well. So go take a look at that, subscribe as well, and you'll be able to get the information sent to you as it happens. So that's another thing you're going to want to do as well. And then finally but last but not least, if you want to learn, academy.hubspot.com. That's the place you're gonna wanna go because you would get certifications in all types of things from sales, you got social media marketing as well as content marketing, everything, right? There's SEO ones in there. I've taken those as well myself and they're really, really fantastic. And I always say just because a special place in my heart for the marketplace at HubSpot, especially on the template side, those who are providers there that make themes and modules, if you get these certifications, they will also be able maybe end up on your listing pages as well for your themes and your modules. So you get to a little bit of a humble brag there as well. But with all that aside and getting all that out of the way, let me let our guest introduce herself. Why don't you tell everyone who you are and what you do?

Sure. My name is Michelle Jensen. Um, I run a blog called Travel Her Story. Um, and I'm also an SEO content writer for— the last company I worked for was AAA.

Excellent. Now, it's very fitting that you're on because again, this with, with everything as far as the— well, we're calling it like the SEO in the AI world. I imagine, and this is just a guess, but the travel industry and travel alone is probably something that's been majorly affected by, uh, what they like to call— I used to call it rank zero, but now it's like the zero-click results of things when people are searching, especially in the travel industry, right?

Yeah, 100%. Um, there was, there was a bad month this summer where, where they turned on AI overviews for Europe, is what I was told. Um, that tanked about half my traffic to my blog. Um, and because of things like, you know, Googling things to do in Rome and there's just a list up top rather than having to click into anybody's website, whether it was me or TripAdvisor or whoever. Uh, so yeah, definitely um, has manipulated, uh, income and traffic for, for people like me.

Because I believe they were saying there were some estimates what was up to like on average like what was a 60 to 70%, uh, just of clicks in general. Like when people would search and the, the AI kind of snippet, I call it like position zero, would show up, it like eliminated at least 60— I think it was, what was it, it was like 65 or something percent of clicks to go in there. I— and that had to have been— yeah, I can't even imagine looking at Google Analytics or whatever analytics like that people would use for their sites and just that day, just what— it's, uh, very, very impactful. Um, before we get into like the real nitty-gritty of this, I wanted to ask like what, as far as like with travel and then with the content writing, like what kind of sparked your interest in all of that at the very beginning?

So years ago, I used to— I worked in TV for 11 years, maybe longer, something like that. And I used to build websites back when I was a teenager. I learned how to code on Neopets, if anybody remembers what Neopets are. But I started building websites when I was a teenager. And then when I became an adult, I went and worked in TV. But I had a job that I had a lot of spare time. And I used to travel in between doing shows and people would ask me like, oh, what's your, you know, can you send me your itinerary? And I got tired of emailing it to, so I was like, I'll just build a website for this thing. So kind of married the, you know, my teenage hobby with, you know, a passion of mine and built a website, but I kind of didn't know jack about SEO or anything. I just kind of put it on the internet. I was like, somebody will find this. And did that for years and years and years and never made a dime off that thing. And then, um, I wound up leaving, uh, my tech job a couple years ago and, um, was doing a networking thing. And somebody did like photography travel, so basically took a bunch of photographers like to the safari or something like that, and they do a trip together. And he's like, well, why don't you at least make what you're spending on this thing? And I was like, okay, I can try. I don't know what I'm doing. And I went up to just kind of like diving into the world of SEO like I had never had before and actually learning what I was doing, which was like a marvel to me. Um, it still is actually at the time sometimes. Um, and actually went up making money off my blog. So it was just great. Um, and that's how I, uh, my main source of income now is, is my travel blog. Um, so, and that's actually how I got my AAA job as well as they saw my travel blog and were like, oh, actually she knows what she's doing. So it was really, you know, a good pat on the back to myself.

So.

That's awesome.

Yeah, that's—

go ahead.

I was gonna say, like, that's got to be just an amazing feeling to know that, like, somebody, like, saw what you were doing. It was like, yeah, come aboard. Like, that's awesome. That's so cool.

Yeah, no, for sure. I did not apply to them. I just got this random message that was like, hey, do you want to apply for this job? And I was like, I know who AAA is. Yeah, of course.

So That's the best one. They find you especially. Yeah, no, I love that. Does the, um, jumping back into that SEO world, because I, I, for me, I did that like once or twice myself depending on the job that I went to. Like, do you— and I guess it's one of those questions, it's like, do you love or do you hate the fact that it's always a constant? Because there's people on both sides of it, but like that SEO is such a constant. I always think of it as a never-ending chess battle. That's the way I once described it to somebody. I don't know if that's the best one, but Because it is always— there's always pieces moving and it's never a game that's like over. There's always like, oh, like especially with like the introduction of AI, it's almost kind of reset itself with a certain aspect. But do you— are you on the— are you on the team of like it's— it can be frustrating or is it like something that because it's such an ever-changing thing that is that actually like something that you love about it?

I actually like it about it because a lot of people when I tell them I'm a travel blogger, they're like, oh, you must have a big TikTok or something. And I'm like, no. Um, uh, because the difference between like SEO and blogging versus like social media in general to me, other than maybe like a Pinterest which is more SEO-based, is the fact that like on social media, like if you don't have captured the attention at that point, you know, for half a second or whatever, right, nobody's watching your video versus a— and, and then it just goes in the ether and it, you know, dies off, right?

Mm-hmm.

Versus a blog, all those posts that I had written for the like 11, 12 years before when I started, when I like actually learned SEO, I rewrote all of them with my actual knowledge and was able to get them ranking, right? It wasn't just dead homework that I had done versus a post where you're like, like I said, you like doesn't do well. I guess you can re-edit it and re-upload it, but how many people are doing that?

Right.

You know, so I kind of like that SEO, yeah, the rules do change obviously, especially in the world of AI, but at least it's, it's homework that I can go and try to re-edit to get a better grade, you know, to kind of use that funky analogy of, you know. That's a good analogy. Um, because yeah, there was like stuff I wrote years ago for Paris. I haven't been to Paris since I was, you know, graduated college, but I went and re-edited that post and I had the number one spot for a while, you know. Um, so at least, yeah, to your, to your analogy, like at least it's a chess game I can learn from and like Do better at.

Now you mentioned—

that's what I like.

You mentioned that the, the, the people asking you about TikTok, like, is that, is, is that one of the biggest like common myths about like writing, you know, like informational blogs and like content writing? Is it everyone just assumes that it's like your social media poster?

Yeah, I think a lot of people just assume, yeah, that you have TikTok or a big Instagram and whatever. Um, because for this summer I went to Europe for 4 and a half months and I got some sponsored stays and I think a lot of people are just like, oh well, she must have like 100,000 TikTok Or something. And I'm like, no, I have a blog that gets tens of thousands of views, but I don't have some TikTok or anything like that. And, um, and for me, like, I'm sure if you have like a million followers on TikTok, you're probably making good money. But for me, again, to the point of like an Instagram post or a TikTok post, you post, unless it goes super viral, it what, dies off in 3 days, right?

Right.

For me, I have some posts that have been the number one spot for like a year now that are still making me money through ads and affiliates. So yeah, maybe it's not as like, you know, flashy as having a lot of TikTok followers, but I'm funding my travels and that's all that matters to me.

And I think that's what people don't really realize. Like, people think like influencer or they think like travel blogger and they just think like, oh, you guys just ask for freebies and you hand around— like, if you actually have a business-like mind and you put a strategy behind it, it actually is very interesting to see just everything that you get involved with. Because we have a good friend that also does that kind of stuff. And just, it's crazy to see like the level of detail when you really get like, basically when you come at it from a business stance, it's so different than like the typical person who just records themselves to record themselves kind of a thing. So yeah, it's definitely an interesting thing. Do you, do you see it more rewarding in doing it that way as like applying like a business strategy to what you're doing? Do you, do you find that to be, I guess, more successful in a way versus just like, oh, I went to like a really nice country, I'm just going to write about it real quick? Like, what is your process, I guess, is the, is the workabout question I'm getting to.

Yeah. So I usually try to go from the standpoint of like what was helpful to me or what did I learn from it? For instance, I went to Switzerland Switzerland and I tried to go see the Matterhorn. Um, I went in April. Apparently it's a very terrible time to go see the Matterhorn because I went all the way up, paid about $100 to get on the train to go to the top, and saw nothing because there was a blizzard.

Oh wow.

Um, there was supposed to be 29 peaks up there including the Matterhorn. I saw nothing. So that's something I could, you know, I took videos and photos of things that I couldn't see, but my post is gonna be, hey, here's how I did it. here's how you shouldn't do it because I didn't succeed at it. So yeah, so from a business standpoint, it's always for me, it's like, what's going to be helpful to somebody trying to do this thing too? You know, and that's kind of like why I like sometimes if it goes a little bit wrong. Obviously, I would have liked to see the Matterhorn. I joked to people, I've spent less going to Disneyland and seeing the Matterhorn. But, but at least that's something I can tell people is like, hey, you know, don't go in April.

You know. So that's always kind of my thing is like, is looking at, you know, how am I helping I was gonna ask you too, like, and kind of piggybacking off of what AJ was talking about, like, is another, is another myth the— I'm trying to think, like, do people not realize, and I know it's, I know it's a lot of work, but I have this feeling, like, is another common myth that it's just like, oh, I'm just gonna put this thing together because I traveled here, or I'm gonna— and even if you, even if there was a social media post on that, let's say there was a TikTok or something like that. But like, do people not realize? Because I'm just gonna guess that it is a lot of hard work because I pretty much know it is. But do you get a lot of people that don't understand that and just think it's like, oh, you're just, you're just writing about this or that. And it's just like, oh, it's just probably, you know, because people— I have this feeling like people don't really understand it. Because again, it's like one of those things that if you're not— if you don't attempt it, you don't really understand the amount of effort that has to be put into it to make it good. I mean, you can make something, but it's not going to be good, right? Do you get people that don't understand that the amount of energy and work that has to go into that?

Yeah, I think some people, and I've seen some bloggers kind of like early bloggers kind of get confused that they think it's like an Instagram post. And I'm like, no, you need to be like a lot more in depth than like the 100 characters or whatever you're writing here. Um, um, yeah, people, people like don't quite get it until they do it. I have a friend of mine that this summer really want to get in travel blogging. So I was kind of helping her out. And I like I didn't even realize how much knowledge I had in my brain until she was asking me questions that were like so simple to me now, which I'm sure was challenging at the time.

Right.

But like simple things about like even tech stuff of like, you know, your plugins update and maybe something goes wrong and what to do about that. And, you know, and that stuff like just general writing you're not gonna think of, but you are running your own business. You have to make sure your website isn't crashing or whatever because some plugin conflict or whatever, or even just writing for, you know, how much content to write. You know, if you're just like writing an itinerary and every line is like, did this today and then ate here and then did this, like, it— that's just a list. That's not enough, you know. So you have to kind of look at Google and see what they want, you know. Um, is what I usually do is like, what's in the top couple spots? What do they want? Do they want a map? Do they want this in a list? Do they want this as, you know, some kind of like diary entry kind of looking thing? Yeah. So I, yeah, people don't, yeah, they, a lot of times I think they think it's like an Instagram caption.

And that's understandable. Like not having the knowledge on something is, I mean, the assumption, sure, people can make it, but yeah, there's, I kind of did the same thing with like doing podcasts myself. That's why I was, I was, I was interested at like, 'cause I had that same mindset where it's just like, I just stand in front of a microphone and, or sit in front of a microphone and just talk and how hard could this be? Not thinking like, well, they actually have to do research. You know, it would— that'd be like, you know, like, like us having this conversation now and me never seeing your website before. Like, just did not even— you know what I mean? Like, and, and I have, I have, I've looked at the website. And not that I'm making a point of that, but like, that is like one of those things where it was like, I, I get where people can get in that mindset, but like, there's probably a lot more to it than people really, really understand, which which is kind of one of the things I wanted to talk. And here's, which I kind of wanna try to segue this the best way I can here because I also think too, when it comes to like AI, as far as like not just the SEO aspect, but the content writing that you are in a vertical and correct me if I'm wrong, this is just kind of what I kind of, I'm thinking in my mind, but you're in a vertical where that's like, You can get AI to write something, but it will never experience something the way a human being does, right? So when you write some of the stuff, like one of the ones that I really like on your site is, no secret, me and AJ are Italian. So about Italy and traveling and the things to do in 3 days and how to prepare for the travels and stuff like that. You could get maybe an AI to write something similar. I wouldn't even say similar. That's slightly disrespectful. Not similar, but could write something. But it's never going to have like that feeling and that experience that you bring to the table.

Is there—

when you see that kind of stuff, like how does that— I don't know if there's a way to combat that, but like— Do you start to see that with some of the other— and it may not be in travel, but do you start to see that with some of the other content writing that you might come across where you can just— where you're like, okay, I get what you tried there, but there's no, there's no human element behind it?

Yeah, no, I mean, there's definitely people who are doing that. And I mean, I've seen people who are, you know, posting that the number 1 ranking slot— I know a girl, she does like family travel, so she does like a lot of Disney stuff and whatnot. And she was saying the number 1 ranking for her, a keyword she was targeting, was like they didn't even spell the parks' names correctly, which makes me feel like AI probably wrote it.

It's possible.

Yeah. So, because I feel like if you're, you know, a Disney family blogger, you probably know how to spell like Magic Kingdom. I'm just guessing. So, but yeah, no, there's definitely, I always try to add that human element because even before AI, like you know, that's— we were always told to like put something different in your post. Like putting in, you know, if Google wants a list, you should probably do a list, but make sure you put something of you in it, you know?

Right.

Um, and the best I can have, like, example I can give of that is I went to Belize in December and I did the ATM cave there, which is like where, uh, Mayan sacrifices happen and they let you climb up into the cave. And I was— it was very Indiana Jones-y, which I love, but I also am like kind of a wimp. So I, I wavered between this is awesome and I'm terrified. And that's basically how I wrote the post, is like, this is my experience. I was terrified but also fascinated, um, to kind of get— let people know what they're in for, because they don't let you bring in your phones because people have dropped cameras on some of the artifacts and broken, you know, 1,000, 2,000-year-old Maya skulls and things like that. So I had no ability to rely on photos other than what they gave me, which is the same photos that are on the internet everywhere because it's on their website. And that post is actually on the first page. And I think because I put so much of this is what I felt about this experience in there, and then AI cannot write that. Could it mimic it and be like, she was scared? Sure. But they're not going to be able to tell you I saw a snake, I'm terrified of snakes, I made an Indiana Jones joke. You know, I put my little wit and whimsy in it that like, hopefully somebody reading it and, you know, hopefully they're old enough to remember all the Indiana Jones stuff. But it's like all like the experience through my eyes, which, yeah, AI can't do. But yeah, I'm positive there's— and not to knock everybody, but I've used AI for outlines and stuff like that. But yeah, I do then go in and be like, hey, I felt this about this, or I liked this, or this didn't work. So here's how I would do it differently.

Right.

AI is not going to— I was in Santorini. My mom had just had knee surgery. There was stuff, certain stuff we didn't do in Santorini because of that. That's something about me that AI is not gonna— unless I purposely ask, is this good for people with, you know, disabilities, probably not going to give it to me.

Right.

Yeah.

I think if it's used as a tool to help enhance versus just to like cheaply create, because I mean, even before, you know, because like, I honestly, like, it's not that I don't like travel, I'm just terrified of heights. So that kind of like puts me in a category where I'm like, I love like, like, like, I said, like, even though— even the imagery on your site for like Italy, I was like, love it, love it. I know this one over here next to me has been to Italy. I've not. Um, but you can like, even when you're reading stuff before AI, I would completely be turned off the minute I was reading something and I was like, this feels so— because like before AI wrote stuff, it was people, but people writing it from an SEO perspective. And it was very— you could tell they were trying to like It was almost writing it SEO robotic, if that's even a term.

Yeah.

You know what I mean? And you could tell that. And I think now, even— I think now more than ever, like you're saying, with the, with the, with the, you know, spelling mistakes where it's like, if you're not spelling the thing correctly that you're writing about, we have a problem here. I think that it's, um, it's just another version of that. But I, I don't— I, I would still be as kind of, uh, I'm good, thanks. I know I'm not reading something real. Like, I think that real element there is the thing that, um, it really distinguishes really, really good writing like yours versus like, I'm just going to ask somebody to write some stuff so I can make a really popular website real quick. Because like you said, you don't get that element. And I really do appreciate that kind of stuff. So I just want to say that we really appreciate that as well as a writer. Thank you. Because it's like, I know—

You're welcome.

No one wants to read that, honestly.

The other stuff, I mean, I can honestly tell you, like, from— I mean, and this was It was probably, oh my God, it was like 12 years ago that I went to Italy. But it was one of those things where it was like, you know, reading now, like the different things that I've read, because like, you know, I have kids now and they'll ask like, oh, well, you know, what was it like being over there? And I'm like, I tried to show them on San Gimignano, the streets, right? Like just everything's just this beautiful brick. It's just gorgeous that you don't drive cars on, you just walk. I hope it was San Gimignano now I'm thinking about it. But it was—

I haven't been, but it sounds correct for me from what I remember.

Yeah, absolutely beautiful. But it's one of those things where like everything I've read Like the pictures I was showing them just doesn't do it justice as to like the way I can explain it of like the atmosphere, the, the smell of the air, the things that people don't think about.

Right.

When you see these general like top 5 places to visit and you're like, oh yeah, that, that would be cool. But like it's just so different when you're actually there and you experience it. So the fact that you're able to write from that experience and that you're not just, you know, creating random bits of content to like fluff out, like, yeah, that's, That's honestly where the heart of it all is. And it's like, like Nick said, like, thank you for writing things like that because it's things like that that I can read where I'm like, yeah, that's exactly what it was like, you know?

Yeah, no, I agree. Because yeah, the, the top 10 lists off of TripAdvisor or whatever, yeah, it's gonna be a list, but like, that's not giving you a vibe, you know?

When you're planning like the, the content to write, when you're trying to think through from an SEO perspective Like, how are you doing the research of what people will search for? Because I know a lot of times when I'm writing, I'm like, hmm, what would people search to find this? Like, how do you do your research? That's, that's where I've found like Claude and stuff to be helpful is giving out theoretics and like, hey, what, you know, what would you search for? Or like, you know, how would— so like explain like I'm 5 kind of a thing to grab terminologies. Yeah.

So there's 2 paths I kind of go down. I use a tool called Keysearch. And I'll punch in, you know, like 3 days in Rome or whatever and see what kind of the, what's ranking and how difficult it is and the, they kind of guess at their search volume. Sometimes it's wrong, sometimes it's low, sometimes it's high, but it kind of gives me some idea, is somebody searching for this or not? I also will think of like what was helpful to me. So, like I just wrote a post on like how to travel the Greek islands Because that was one thing I remember like trying to figure out, like, should I take the ferry or should I take flights in between? Um, me and my family wound up taking flights, and of course like I wrote in there like why we wound up doing this over the ferries. It was faster, it was cheaper, you know, whatever reason. So yeah, it's, it's either like what was helpful for me at the time and like what was a common like nagging thought. I had the same thing for Belize, um, trying to like get from Belize City to the islands. I was like, okay, do I take the boat? Do I fly over? You know, so I wrote a post for that. So It was what was helpful to me in the time, or like I said, like what I find on key search as far as, you know, not super difficult volume, um, not super difficult, uh, to rank for, sorry, and, and a higher volume, um, so that, you know, traffic is good.

Now, do you use any of your previous experience in the entertainment industry? Like, did that come into play at all when you've been doing like SEO? Were there things where like you had opportunities to explore SEO in the different, um, past experiences you've had?

In TV, I was mostly in post-production, so I worked with the enders ending shows like Riverdale and Batwoman, um, and, um, trying to think of other shows I ended right now. Mistresses. Um, so SEO wasn't really part of it. I mean, I— there was a lot of planning, so I, I guess that part of it would be in, but as far as any kind of like technical websitey stuff Not, not much. Um, just because like mostly my job was like scheduling actors to do ADR or, um, planning the schedule or billing and stuff like that. So, um, but yeah, I would guess like just the planning part of it and kind of being disciplined in that because that is one of the few things about being my own boss is like you kind of have to be disciplined to be like, okay, we're gonna go do this and we make sure we do it as completely as we can, you know, because I don't get to visit these places, you know, I can't just pop over for a photo that I forgot. So.

So, so do you use a particular like project management software in a way? Like I know that there's like Asana, Jira, things like that to like kind of like when you're, when you're building your content and scheduling things, like what's your go-to software when it comes to that?

I don't think I have a go-to software for that because like for, for posts I don't really schedule them. If I just finish it, I just post it. Um, for like social media stuff, yeah, I, I schedule that out. But yeah, there's not really— I have like a bank of like keywords of, of stuff I've researched to be like, okay, this is probably a good thing that I want to write about. Like for instance, when I was saying like the Greek islands, of like, oh yeah, this was like a thing I really— I did research on myself. But so like, let's make it easy for other people and not make them, you know, have to read 8 articles. Um, so that's the only kind of thing is like I have like a keyword bank that I, I make for myself That I'm several posts behind on because there's always more you can write. But that's about it.

Yeah. No, that's awesome. I know AJ's real big on content calendars and Dennis really gets on me about content calendars for this, for what we do. And I just don't, I don't, I'm okay. Like I don't, I do it very manually.

I do it.

I'm just, I'm weird like that. But I could see where the benefits are in it.

But But yeah, I think if I had a team or something that I was like assigning different things to people, I would definitely do some kind of calendar to keep track of who was doing what. But being that it's only me writing, I just have like a word bank of like, okay, today is Vienna and we're gonna write about this, you know.

Now, that's fantastic.

Let's, uh, I want to play a game. Let's pretend I am someone who wants to start getting into, like, let's say I want to write— again, I'd be a really, really poor example since I don't go anywhere since I don't— I drive most places. I don't— I fly when I have to.

Uh, road trips are big on, on blogs, you know.

That's true.

That's, that's true.

Okay, so I, I do have a shot. I do have a shot. Okay, if I'm just starting out and I want to be— and I want to write, and, you know, and I want to write kind of a ton about traveling, um, in my limited capacity, um, what are, what are some of the things that you would give as advice for like people just starting out, seeing as we are in this kind of like I don't want to say it's a transition into the AI world as if it's going to completely change everything. I mean, it will affect things, but like, if I'm that person that wants to start out now, like, what are some of the things that I need to be aware of when I first start?

Yeah, that's a good question. Um, I would say like learn SEO as best as you can because like I said, when I started, I just would write an itinerary and just put up whatever I thought would help people, which is— there's some value to that, but it's not gonna rank on Google probably. Um, because I would just be like, things to do. I, I— all right, there used to be so many like weird— I, I'm so old in blogging that there used to be weird titles. It'd be like, week 1 of Paris, and you're like, who's searching for that, right? You know? Or it'd be like, my first day in Paris, and you're like, nobody's searching for these things. Which is, if you're writing your blog as like a diary, that makes sense, you know? But like—

That's true.

That's not going to get you any, you know, I think I did a road trip across the United States and I think mine was like solo female road tripper. Nobody's looking for that, you know, like, so learning how to get with without like making it too like robotic to your point earlier, but finding ways to like actually help people but using keywords that Google actually gives a hoot about, you know.

Right.

Um, so rather than, yeah, solo female road tripper, it could be like doing a road trip while solo or something like that, you know, um, some keyword that you, you find that, that people are actually searching the internet for. Um, and for me, SEO, learning where keyword placement goes, um, how to optimize your website so it's not slow, because, you know, nobody wants to go on a website that takes, you know, 10 minutes to load anyway. Um, but Google doesn't want it either, you know. Um, common nobody Yeah, yeah, nobody, nobody wants that. Um, but yeah, SEO is, yeah, like I said, keyword placement. Um, some of the big things that I've, and I'm still learning how to do this, is like intention for Google. So for instance, I had a post on things to do in Washington, DC, and Google Discover kept picking it up, but it wasn't ranking anywhere on Google, like literally wasn't even on the 10 pages. Um, but I was like, why does Google Discover give a hoot about this, this blog post, but like I can't get it to go rank anywhere? So I looked at like the, the blog that was ranking on the first page, and there was only one, and they had their list of things to do sorted by categories, you know, museums, monuments, um, government buildings, something like that. And I was like, okay, let me try that. So I just made my own categories, went to the first page. And I think that is like a credit to like Google's intention is that Google is like, oh, if we want this easily sortable for people, and that's the only thing I changed. It wasn't like I had changed anything else in that post. Now I've since lost that first page post. I'm on page 2, but it was on the first page for about a year. So it's kind of like playing that chess game with Google and being like, oh, okay, you want like this? Okay, let me go do that. And I try to tell people don't steal. I obviously, I just looked at the fact that they did categories and went, okay, how can I do my own categories? You know, and like I said, none of the other content changed. So. Right.

I think that's a misconception that people have too, is with the, um, what, what I guess what you could like categorize as like competitive analysis. It's, uh, I used to, I used to run into that problem too with in real estate, like all the time. And I, I got to bring up real estate because Dennis isn't here, and every episode I try to work it in. But it does ring true because, you know, there was a lot of, you know, you're one, let's say you're one brokerage amongst many in a metropolitan city, right? Like in the city of Chicago. And what's going on?

You guys hear me?

I can hear you, but we can't see you.

I apologize. That's the first time that has ever happened.

That's all right. You were—

I honestly—

real estate to some question.

Monday, I was arguing with Comcast about the internet speeds here. And they're like, oh, no, you're just gonna have to update all your equipment. And I'm like, I know. I'm like, it worked Monday. I was like, why is this? This shouldn't be an issue. But no, yeah, I brought up real estate because Dennis isn't here, so he always loves when I talk about that. But I actually had similar situations where you know there's multiple brokerages in a city, right? So we were in the you know city of Chicago, and then basically what happens is you you see like let's say like content about a particular particular neighborhood, about a particular— like, it ranks a certain way and yours doesn't. And you're kind of like, well, why? You know, and the ownership always used to be like, well, I don't want to copy other people's stuff. And I'm like, I'm not, I'm not suggesting we copy. I'm suggesting we see what is the uniqueness. Because again, like, like you had even said yourself, Michelle, like, you have to— there has to be a uniqueness to what you're writing about or what you're, you know, the content, or it's no better than somebody else's. And Google's going to see that it's in like like almost like a copy. So I think that's— I think that gets overlooked by people sometimes, that sort of, um, and I'll call it competitive analysis, but really all you're trying to do, like you said, is it's intent. You're just trying to see like there's a reason why things rank, right? Because people find it useful for a particular reason, and you're just trying to make sure that your content also gives that particular reason to be useful. So I always kind of like when I hear people are like, oh, I don't want to copy, I don't want to copy it. It's like no one's suggesting you do, right? Because I've even given that out as advice where I'm just like, take a look at the, you know, go to the first page, you know, for whatever it is that you're trying to rank for and see. I'm like, what is the commonalities amongst these things? Well, I'm not copying somebody's stuff. I'm like, let's be clear, I don't want you to do that exactly, you know?

Yeah.

So yeah, I find that to be, pretty crucial, uh, you know, with that. And then especially if you're writing about stuff where the human element makes a really big difference, you're not going to be copying. Like, there's no way you would because that's your experience, right? So—

Now, have you noticed people mimic the things that you've done on your blogs? Like, I know, um, back in the day when I was building, I was in a very niche market where it was just, um, it was school supplies, like school supply kits. And I noticed that like when we made changes to particular ways that we did things on the website, a week later competition was doing the same thing. Like, do you— have you ever realized or have you ever seen like somebody is like trying to take your content or trying to take the thing that you do and do it themselves in a way? Like, have you ever come across that?

I don't think so. And we all kind of like borrow from each other to some degree. So for instance, like on the top of some of my itineraries, I'll have like a box that's like, you know, like a short quick list of like tours to book. And, you know, and if it's like, let's say Greece, I'll be like, book ASAP the Acropolis, it's super busy. So it's just like quick facts, which, uh, Jessie on a Journey is somebody I, I kind of got that idea from. So we all kind of like borrow from each other. And she's a very— she teaches people how to blog and stuff like that. Um, so she was definitely one that I was like, I think she'll be fine if I kind of take this idea. Um, But yeah, I don't, I don't think I've seen anybody kind of take— I have seen somebody like absolutely duplicate my blog post and I had to report it, you know, word for word and it got taken down very quickly which was great but yeah, I don't think I've seen anybody mimic how I do stuff and I've definitely checked in on like people who bloggers who like write about similar keywords like I'm not checking every blogger obviously that would would, you know, never happen. But if I see somebody like constantly ranking, I'll like check to be like, great, what are they doing that's different? Um, uh, but yeah, I don't think I've ever seen anybody who's done what I'm doing.

When it comes to like measuring the success of things, is there a, is there a particular— because especially now, because, right, because you're— let's say the percentage that everybody's throwing around now holds true, right? You expect to lose 65% of your traffic. Like Where— what are some of the other ways that you're kind of shifting towards as far as measuring the success of things with regards to the writing?

Um, usually how I measure success is like income generated, um, at least for myself. Um, luckily, I think it was July was that month that they turned on AI overviews for Europe. I think it was— it was either June or July. Um, luckily after that month, for whatever reason, things went back to normal for me. Um, I know not for every blogger that happened, but for me it kind of like went back. Um, I did see them because they used to put the snippets always at the top. Now I've seen them kind of like sometimes put them like 2 below the first results, and I think that kind of like shook things up a little bit for people. Um, it's just my guess. I, I'm not quite sure if that's true or not, but I definitely saw like a return the month following because I was just like, oh shit, how do I get in these snippets now? Um, and even if you are credited in a snippet, like, I haven't seen anybody prove that that means you get any traffic. So I, I didn't put a ton of work into that because I was just like, okay, let's Let's not panic with like a chicken with my head cut off and try to, you know, change everything for this when we don't know kind of where it's gonna play out.

Um, I imagine the backlash too from just people in general. That's— I'd had to— because even when I saw it, I was just like— because I, I was even doing searches and I was guilty of it myself. I was like, oh, I just did— yeah, that's the answer I needed. Okay, that, that seems right. And then I'm thinking, you know, I don't I don't really click anymore, do I? I was like, oof. I'm like, oh man, because, you know, being— because I used to— like, part of my job at a previous company is, you know, uh, like an SEO person and like metrics and analytics. And I was just— and when I saw myself like repeating that pattern just recently where I wasn't clicking anything and I was just taking whatever answer, um, you know, not even taking into consideration hallucinations and like things like that within like LLMs, just not clicking in general. And I was like, oh God, I'm like, that's— people gotta be just irate right now. 'Cause I know I would be if I was on the opposite end of that, trying to like gather these metrics and trying to measure success. So, but it is nice though, like you mentioned, that you do get to like, you still have the revenue income kind of measurement as well that can also kind of help guide the ups and the downs. I mean, obviously you never wanna see it go on the down, but you do still, you'll get to measure those things.

Yeah.

So, I, I mean, I guess—

Yeah, and that month that they, they turned it on, my revenue like cut in half, which was like not super fun, obviously.

Right.

Um, but in that moment, I also like, because I was just like, well, what if this never goes away? Like, I started looking at other avenues, and one of them was definitely Pinterest, which is kind of based off an SEO model as well. Um, and started kind of like digging more in there, and I actually saw some like really great traffic until actually about like a week or two ago. But I'm hoping it's like seasonality of like kids are going back to school and people are planning travel less and I'm hoping it's going to go back up. But I definitely did start seeing like more Pinterest traffic in that time because yeah, you can't sit there and just hope things are going to change. Obviously, I was like happy that change things swung back in the other direction for me. But like, I also know that like they could turn something back on tomorrow and it can all go back down, you know.

So like, right.

You just kind of have to like be like, is this still worth it? And for me, I actually really do like blogging. So because— and that's why I tell people who are like, oh, I'm thinking about doing it. I was like, you have to understand, you have to really like this. You know, it's kind of like when I used to work in entertainment, and people were like, actors would be like, you have to love the art of it. Or if you're just sitting here to like, hopefully be Jennifer Aniston, like, good luck to you. You know?

If you're doing it just for a paycheck, it ain't gonna work.

Yeah, like, like, there's— yeah, there was that month that I made half my income. Was it great? No. I was like, this sucks, you know? Um, especially when I know like there's bloggers who are making like more than I am, and I'm like, oh God, I'm putting effort into this. But at the end of the day, I still enjoy what I'm doing. I still get messages from people who, um, to the point of what I was talking about earlier, is the hotel is giving it to me for free they'll ask me questions about my stay. And I think that provides a lot of value to these hotels, you know. I had somebody— the— I got to stay at this lovely 700-year-old monastery in Prague for free. That's normally like $400 a night or something like that. Crazy. And somebody asked me my opinion about that the other day, you know. So I think there's still value to, to what people like me are doing. But yeah, I think AI, you can't be like asking like, what's the weather in June in Prague? Like, they don't need me for that, you know? Like, but when they were like, hey, we heard that the trams sometimes are loud at night at this hotel, can you tell me, did you hear them? AI is not gonna give them that.

Right, right.

Exactly. Exactly.

Yeah.

With, um, you mentioned, uh, the seasonality. I was just curious, like, I just, just popped up in my head, like, have you noticed, has there been a change as far as like the, um, the trend when it comes to— because, you know, everybody would like traditionally you think seasonality, you think, oh, it's starting to get warm now, this is where everybody travels. But I'm wondering like because of the way kind of like the dynamic of like work and just work-life balance and all that, especially within the last couple years, right? And especially because of like lockdowns and things where people started to work from home. So even their job structure changed, right? So even me working here, coming from where I used to work, like real estate was nuts 24/7. So time off and time to travel and time to go on vacations was far less than a place that, like HubSpot, that values work-life balance far more than the real estate industry. I'm not saying where I worked was bad, but just the industry in general. HubSpot compared to that. Do you see— has like the trend in the seasonality of travel changed due to that, or is it still kind of the same kind of ups and downs as far as interest? Like, oh, let's say, I don't know, especially if you're in the States here in the Midwest, like May-ish is like the blizzard's over and you can dig out of your front door. Now I can start going places. Do you— have you seen a change?

It's hard for me to say because I've only like restarted and taken like blogging seriously within like the last year and a half-ish. Um, because like before I kind of like did it like once a year or every like twice a year or something like that. So it's hard for me to say like a year-over-year analysis. Um, but as far as me for like traffic and income, it's pretty consistent. Like I make between like $2,000 and $2,500 a month usually. other than that one month where AI, you know, tanked everything.

Right.

Um, and I'll definitely see like downs and like, like the, the time between Christmas and New Year's, like it's just like nobody's doing shit. Um, so like there's nobody on the website and I just know that's gonna happen. Um, but for as far as for me, like it's pretty consistent month for month. So yeah, I think the seasonality to some degree is gone. Um, and when I was talking about like the seasonality like on Pinterest, Pinterest, like I said, mine had gone up, so I'm just hoping it's seasonality. It's not going back down. Um, because like I said, I know a lot of, like, Pinterest is very female heavy, so I know it's like a lot of moms on there, like, searching for, like, school stuff and whatnot right now, probably. Um, uh, but yeah, as far as seasonality for travel, yeah, I don't think it's there as much. I will say though that, like, I don't really have many winter destinations on my travel blog. I went to Finland and got— went to the Arctic Circle, and that's very much like a winter destination. But that's my only one that's like very winter-specific, because I went to like Belize and Mexico in winter, and that's not exactly like— you can also go there in summer, and I don't think your experience is gonna like vastly change, you know, versus like, right, I went to the ice hotel in Finland. That's not going to be there in June, you know. Yeah.

That's got to be so cool. I, I just about— because I think that was— wasn't that the one that was in, uh, uh, what was it, uh, Pierce Brosnan? It was in— it was a Bond film. They had something similar. I don't know if it was the actual hotel, but it was— what's that?

Goldfinger?

No, Halle Berry and Pierce— I think it was Pierce Brosnan.

Was it Die Another Day?

It might have been, but that's— that— I don't know if it was that hotel, but it was like a similar thing where it was just like— and I knew there one had— a real one had existed. I don't know if it was that one, but like Yeah, those type of travels are just— I mean, I'm envious of that. I truly, truly am. Because it's, to me, I don't know, it's— you especially, I think now, because like working from home, it's a— you don't get out as much. So now even more so, because like I used to, like whenever there was a really good article about like traveling somewhere or about a particular destination, I would, I would definitely read it without a doubt. And I think now more so, I actually kind of seek that out just because of the fact that there is less of a— and it's not like I'm trying, you know, like I can drive to Indiana or I can drive to Ohio or Iowa on this side and it's like, yeah, I could get out, but it's not— no, like, like articles, like, like things that you like that you write about is, is definitely the thing that kind of, um, I don't know, it really does— it makes things— it kind of opens up— it opens up the world where like you know, not too long ago it seemed very, very condensed. So kudos to that because that's— I think that's a huge thing that doesn't get done enough, honestly, because it's easier to post on TikTok or it's easier to post on LinkedIn and, you know, and just throw up a couple of second thing that I don't know, personally, sometimes I don't think there's that much thought put into a lot of that either. But this you can tell, definitely. They're definitely—

Thank you.

Is there a—

is there a way that you kind of use to help, uh, kind of stay— because I, I mean, there's, there's traditional SEO stuff too, right, where you can be like, oh, I follow this website, or I go— is there, is there other particular things that you, uh, follow or that you kind of watch with regards to SEO and kind of content writing that you use to help you kind of stay on top of things?

So I join a lot of Facebook groups. Um, I will credit how I know most SEO stuff was a girl named she knows SEO. Her name is Nina. I had seen on a podcast called Niche Pursuits, they have people like who are like experts in their field come and talk and she did some posts that she was like, I went from this number of views to this number of views and I was like, okay, let me watch it and a lot of those times those are like interviews are like so generic like, yeah, I just put in a lot of work and that's how I got there and you're like, okay, cool.

Right.

How is that helpful to anybody else? But she was very like action-focused of like, I did this and this and this and this. And that's the best way I can learn is if you're giving me actual either examples or a list of steps or things like that. So I went up seeking out her, her, um, Facebook group and joined that, which got me on her newsletter as well. And that Facebook group, like, we're all going through it together. Um, you know, if something like when, when AI changes something, everyone will be like, hey, did you see that thing that is not working anymore?

Right.

You know, so it's just a good way of, of having a sounding board, asking questions, and then also kind of like getting validated, be like, okay, I'm not the only one that's tanking this month because of whatever. Um, the, like, when, when the, the AI thing switched on for their, their, how I found out that they turned it on for Europe, the AI overviews. Um, and I, I really proved that it was that on my blog because my impressions were the same but my views were like cut in half. So I was still ranking, my rankings didn't change, it's just that nobody was clicking.

Right, right.

You know, um, but yeah, definitely She Knows SEO is, is how I, I get most of my information. Um, uh, there's another one, it's like Make Money Traveling, I think it's another Facebook group. Um, I think those are the 2 main ones I hang out with, hang out in, that I'll like read other people's posts and see what they're asking questions. And of course I'm asking my own questions as well. Um, and She Knows SEO, I have it linked to my blog, but I did a course of hers, um, that was very beginner focused. So some, some of the stuff for me like I already knew, but if somebody was like brand new to blogging would be very helpful to them. I think it's like the first $50K or something like that. It's it's called, which goes through like all the SEO basics.

Nice. It's good to see too that there's a kind of a community because I— you, you had— I can't remember where I was reading it, but like community management too, like you were— that was part of it. Like, it's nice to see that, especially in the SEO world, that people are actually like working together. Because I remember, I don't know, maybe this was years back, but like, it was such a guarded secret. It was so— I did this thing. Oh, that's interesting. Like, you don't have to tell me how exactly you did it, but what are some of the things ended up— nope, this is my guarded SEO secret here. I'm, you know, if you want to take my course for, you know, $10,000 or something, you know, maybe I'll— it's like, no, I'm not asking you to like— I'm not gonna steal your idea. But like, because I was first starting out in that as well, and I was just just like, oh my God, I feel like nobody wants to help you. I just feel like you have to like really fail horribly to learn, which, I mean, there's nothing wrong with like doing something, failing and learning from it. But I, you know, when you're just starting out, it piles up. It feels like you're failing at every single thing because you don't know what you're doing yet. So it's really good to hear that there's, you know, it's— and so I don't know, maybe it's just in content writing or maybe it's just in travel, but like, it's good to hear that there are people that are more than willing to kind of share the ideas and like give others heads up when they notice something like that?

Yeah, it's definitely in travel, I would say, the community. I mean, I mean, there's even people on LinkedIn I chat with, mostly other girls in travel writing, who will share like, you know, job opportunities or like, hey, did you see this thing? Or this one girl that she, she's primarily a schoolteacher, but she does like write for like Business Insider and stuff like that on the side to make some extra income. And I'm starting to try to get into that. So, I was like asking her advice on like, how do you pitch for articles for them? And she'll return the favor and be like, okay, how do you do this for Pinterest? And I'm like, okay, this is what I did, you know. Um, because yeah, they're definitely like back in the day. I feel like that's partly of why I failed in the previous, you know, like 11 years before I took it seriously was like I had no idea and I took a couple random courses that I could afford because you're right, like a lot of them were like thousands of dollars and I was like, how the hell do I know think you're gonna tell me anything useful. Um, and I remember, yeah, taking one that taught me nothing.

Yeah, which is crazy because like, in, and, and I mean, I would say that the, the pace at which SEO changed, it, it constantly changes, but like maybe 10 years ago, maybe 15 years ago, depending on how far back you go, the change wasn't as, um, rapid. I mean, it was fast, but like fast compared to like we're talking about like right now where it comes to like AI Even with regards to SEO, like the changes, like blink and you missed it. It was fast previously, just I would say maybe not. I mean, I don't know if it's fair to say, but not nearly as fast. And you don't want to be paying like $1,000 for a course. I always kind of attributed to like when I used to, uh, when I went to Eastern Illinois and I had like a web class, by the time I graduated or finished that class, it was obsolete. So you don't want to be taking SEO courses where you're paying exuberance. Now don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with like paying for a course if it's really good and useful, but like some of these things you'd be spending that money and by the time you were done with it, one, like you said, you may not have learned anything, and two, the philosophy in which they might be kind of pushing you towards has now magically changed because of one, uh, puffin or penguin or whatever algorithm Google, uh, update that they— I just completely blanked on what the animal was. But like whatever algorithm update Google, you know, decides to throw out there has completely just decimated what you've just spent time learning, you know, whatever that timeframe was. So, but yeah, I, it's nice, that sense of community though with, with, with the travel industry like that, that is, it's refreshing to hear that that exists because sometimes I just, I think in certain areas it's very standoffish.

Yeah. Yeah, that's why I have even my own newsletter. It's really small right now, but like, I will kind of do it as like a case study email. Like, I'll give the example of the, the, um, where I said earlier I did the different categories and that's how I got it to rank. I'll, I'll do that as a case study in the email and like, this is exactly what I did, um, to kind of show people like it's a real— it's, it's blogging is a lot of work. But you can also figure it out. It's like a— it's a puzzle you can solve if you spend time on it. Um, and I like— not to say that I know all the answers, but like, I feel like that's such a more relatable— I tried this and this is the result, you know? I'd rather learn from somebody who like that than like the— yeah, like, I just put in a lot of effort and I just learned. And you're like, okay, but what action steps did you take to get—

Yeah, right. What they're not telling you is like for days they were pulling their hair out, like completely like breaking everything, you know what I mean? There's a—

Or like there was outside help. Like, um, either there's, um, uh, somebody— I won't name it because I don't want to like, you know, harp on anybody— but like people who are like writing books and stuff like that, and they're like, I sold this many books, and then they like look and there's like some PR company that helped them get all this coverage. And which is fine if you want to pay for a PR company to get that coverage, it's It's fine. But like, let's not pretend like you just organically found all this stuff.

Right. Yeah.

I'm really big on transparency. And that's the things that I always— I remember I got into it with one blogger and it wasn't against the blogger. It was they were blogging about a certain technology type thing. And I'm like, yeah, but you're not, you're not in that field. So the things you're saying aren't 100%. And it's like, you're telling people to do this, but it's the wrong way to do it. And it was like this little like bicker back and forth online. And I think it was like when it was Twitter, I'd still call it Twitter, but it was like basically one of those. And I was like, look, like we can agree to disagree. Your article is still your article. It's resourceful. But like, I'm just trying to give people a warning. Like, hey, it's not the full view of what you're doing. Like there's more to it. And like, I think you just nailed it when you said that. Like, you know, there's more to these things and you have to be transparent about how you got it. Like if you're saying, oh, I got 1,000 views, Yeah, but you paid for 500 of them. Like, let's, let's not falsely lead people into following what you're doing.

Yeah, yeah. And that's why I, I, I'm kind of what started my journey of like sharing how I do all this was I post on— I saw somebody on Threads post how much they made and I was like, okay, cool, that's like a good way for me to like track. And I break it down by ads or affiliates and, and Amazon and things like that. And like so many people have like followed me because I'm transparent. And I'll be like, I made $15 here and like $4 here and $75 here. And like, it's at least transparent and I'm being reasonable and not just being like, I'm a 6-figure blogger, which those people probably saying it probably are, but like, I don't know how you're making your money. Like, that's very, you know, like, I'd rather be like, oh, she's only making $2,000, but I know exactly how she's making that $2,000.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And that's— and kudos to that for the transparency because like you said, like a lot of people, they just, they won't do that. And it's like, listen, and everybody inflates things every once in a while. Like, okay, it's $1,900. I round up to $2,000. Sure. Like, but like a lot of people are, I mean, it's not that they're being dishonest, but I get the— there's a draw, right? There's a certain draw to saying like, okay, I have this blog, I write this content. and I'm, I'm making bank. You can be just like me. Like, there's, there's a draw to that, right? Because people want to do that. But no, I, I, I really do appreciate, like, the transparency in that respect because there's not a lot of people that do that. And because I got— I don't know, maybe people might be scared, uh, you know, to, like, to be honest about those things. But I, I, you know, I, I have the utmost respect, honestly.

So yeah. And I feel like the, the other thing, especially with like the rise of influencers and stuff like that, I think a lot of people get into it thinking they'll see somebody on like a sponsored press trip and just like assume their life is like that. I've met a blogger that years ago that I really— I thought she was amazing, and, and I'm not saying she's not amazing, but I thought she was like thriving off this blog, right? Like that's the way she perceived it. I had like an in-depth conversation with her and I found out like she really couldn't pay her rent. You know, because it was all like gifted trips and whatever. And like, she was like being sent over to Ireland for St. Patty's Day with some company, which is great, but like, if you can't also pay your rent—

Yeah, right.

You know, so like, that's the other thing that I like— I don't want to give people an illusion that's like not there, you know? Like, yes, I'm living off my blog right now, but I'm also— look, like, I was also great to work for AAA for a little while until they laid everybody all the contractors off. That sucked. I would have stayed there forever though, because I really liked them, you know. But I got— only got that because of my blog, and that helped me pay my rent, you know. So I just— I'd rather give out the honest view rather than like pretending I'm like thriving in this, you know, like unattainable area.

I know we're running up on time, and I— we do appreciate you taking the time to talk with us. But there is one question that I always love to ask everybody And even if you don't have like a mentorship type of quote that someone's given you or something like that, like you are in a sense, like you are a mentor because if there are people that have come to you and right, and then have asked you. So if you don't have one, what would— I'll phrase the question a different way then. But usually the question that we ask is like, what is some of the best mentorship advice that you've gotten? You know, either, you know, with career, you know, throughout your career, it doesn't have to be this job. It could be a previous job. And if you don't have one, the inverse of the question, if you don't, like, what are some of the things that— and you did allude to this earlier about like, if I was starting out, but what is a piece of mentorship advice that you would give to somebody that was maybe first starting out wanting to write content and creating a business like this for themselves?

That's a good question. Yeah, I can't— I mean, short of saying Nina, as she knows, as a mentor where I've learned a lot. It, but I can't think of like a piece of wisdom that she's imparted off the top of my head. But I feel like the— what I would tell somebody is just like, make sure whatever vertical you're going into, because obviously content writing, you can be writing mechanics, or you can already be writing travel, or you can be writing about school supplies, it doesn't matter. Just make sure whatever it is you're like actually passionate about, you know. Like, I like basically like dream about ending blog posts. That's how much I'm like into So yeah, just make sure it's like, it's whatever vertical you're actually passionate about. Because I get, you know, I've seen job postings where it's like dentistry, like, I don't really— yes, I go to my dentist, but I don't want to be writing about it, you know? Like, and it's only going to be easier and passionate for you if that's something that you care about, you know? I love telling people, like, make sure you do this before you go, make sure you do that, make sure you have this, like, Like, I get excited about that stuff. Um, and people have even told me, they're like, you're really passionate when you start talking about those. And I'm like, yeah, because I really care. Um, so yeah, just make sure whatever, whatever vertical you go into for writing is, is, is an area you care about.

Excellent. No, I think that's, I think that's absolutely true. Because it's like, you can tell, because you could just honestly, you could tell when you're talking with people. Like, I've had people say that about me. Like, Like, real— okay, real estate at the time. Like, if you did— like, there's, there's a— you can just tell there's a, there's a difference between someone who's talking about something with a passion versus someone who's just talking about something. And I think it's like, sometimes it's really, really easy to tell the difference. And, uh, you know, you always—

Yeah.

And plus too, as someone, when you're discussing something with someone, it's, it's awesome to like watch someone who has such a passion about it, it makes it more interesting as well, just as someone who's listening to a conversation as well. So no, I think even if you don't have mentorship, that's a quote that's influenced you, the way you embody things is a piece of mentorship that others can take from 100%. So it's great. So kudos to that. That is just— Fantastic.

Yeah. And I'm gonna, I'm gonna interrupt Nick because I know what he's gonna ask next because this is also something we asked. But I want to ask it because I'm very interested in this because I was, I was stalking your LinkedIn. We'll be honest, I was looking at your LinkedIn. Tell me about Deferring Death. Tell me, so you, do you write on the side? Is this, is this a hobby that you do outside of your job? Because that's usually what we ask people is like, what do you do when you're not doing what you do? Right.

Yeah, so that I started in COVID before driving back into the, the travel blogging. Um, and I'm still trying to edit that book. I, I'm deciding to finally self-publish because I was— I'm tired of being trying to get picked by a publisher. Um, so Deferring Death is an action-adventure novel. Basically, I grew up loving Indiana Jones, as I mentioned earlier, and I, you know, Tomb Raider and all those kind of, you know, Jumanji, all the action-adventure stuff. And I was always like looking for more of it because, you know, they don't make those films constantly. And was trying to find a book, but every book was kind of like Outlander where I was just like, okay, this is a romance book with like a dash of adventure in it. I don't want this. I want, I want Indiana Jones as a book, or Tomb Raider, or Jumanji, or whatever. And, uh, a friend of mine at the time was like, why don't you try? And I'm like, yeah, yeah, when I've got all this time. Because at the time I was still on TV, and you work like 12 hours a day on TV, and you sit in 2 hours of traffic because it was Los Angeles and blah blah blah, no time. And then COVID hit and I was like, well gee, I've got all this time now. So I wrote it during COVID and then just have been kind of editing it and working on it and trying to, to get it published. But yeah, I'm trying to self-publish it. Um, basically it's about a woman who, who reclaims stolen artifacts, so artifacts taken by foreign nations, she's trying to return them. Um, and she winds up finding a Maya codex That winds up leading her on this kind of like epic Indiana Jones type adventure, um, because she winds up getting hurt and has to solve it before she dies. So, um, yeah, that's, that's my other, uh, other passion.

That's fantastic. Thank you for making a strong female lead because there is not enough of those in books and stuff like that anymore, you know. As I have 2 daughters and it's like that, I love when there's books like that where it's like Yeah, no, like it's not just like, you know, Nicolas Cage in, you know, National Treasure. Like there's more, like there's a lot more adventures. I just think that that's fantastic. Like that sounds, it sounds awesome, honestly.

Oh, thank you so much.

That's very cool. Um, why don't, uh, is there any, you know, before we wrap things up, uh, can you, why don't you tell everyone where they can find you? I mean, I know that, tell everybody about the website and everything.

Yeah, so it's travelherstory.com, kind of like history but with her at at the front of it is how it would— so explain it to people so they can spell it correctly.

And then, uh, what is the book? Is the book out or is it—

No, it's a work in progress. But if you go onto my, my website, I do have like a block on the homepage where you can sign up for a newsletter where I'm going to start sending out information when I have updates of where it's going to be. Um, or you can go on my LinkedIn, which is Michelle Jensen, um, and find me on there and I'll be posting on there there as well. Um, and you're welcome to, to send me a connection request.

Excellent. No, thank you. And thank you so much for being on. This was really great. Uh, yeah, it's, it's really nice to be able to talk not just about SEO but like focus it in on particular verticals. Uh, because I mean, you could talk about SEO all day long from a general standpoint, right? And then there's a lot to cover and it's, it's almost too much, right? You'd be bouncing around on too many things. But to be able to kind of narrow down and really drill down into like certain specifics is a really fantastic thing. So we appreciate you taking the time to come on, and we can't say enough about it. So thank you.

Yeah, no problem. Thank you for having me.

Yeah, no, no problem. And I'll just— I'll leave it with this like I always do. I like to impart wisdom on AJ as well, but Tolkien once said that, you know, not all those who wander are lost. And that's only because he never drove with me in my car, because without Android Auto, I couldn't get— I couldn't get out of the town I live in here. So So I appreciate Tolkien's attempt, but he just, he had never met me, and I think that's part of the problem.

So, but yeah, it's okay. Pretty much.

Pretty much. But we'll end it there. And thanks everyone for listening. You know, if you haven't already, go check out Michelle's website, you know, sign up for the newsletter if you want to check out and, you know, learn about the book and when it comes out. And then of course, you know, like and subscribe. If it wasn't for people like our listeners, you know, we wouldn't still be able to do this. this. So, uh, thank you very much for listening, and we'll see you all next time.

All right.