Ep. 16 - A is apple J is for Joomla with Nathan Gifford | Devs:After Dark

So I'm either doing music stuff or on a computer or chasing the goat.

I need to work on that fade. Like, I feel like that black's just a little bit too long. It makes me feel like I'm anxious to get in.

I know, I like it. It gives me time. I get like, I get pumped and I'm like, here it goes.

You know what I mean?

It's like when you come in, uh, you know, in a water slide, like out of the dark and you get into that like open area and you're like shooting that. I like it. I think it's good.

I'm just like, did it break?

You're perfect the way you are, Dennis. Don't ever change.

Don't ever change. Thank you.

Thank you.

Well, welcome to Developers After Dark. This is episode 16. And with us is a very special guest. Um, I, I have a bit of a bias for the CMS and the template marketplace. This is one of those episodes where I get a little bit more nerdier than usual. I will apologize ahead of time, but it's just what I do. But before we jump into everything, let me pay a couple of bills real quick. I want you to know that all you developers out there that are either watching live or that will be watching this sometime in the near future, that we need your votes. What I mean by that is the Postman Developers' Choice Awards are coming up on April 2nd. So we're asking for our amazing developer community, and that's you. I'm talking about all of you out there. We want you to support HubSpot, and there's a good reason for it. You're probably asking yourself, why am I voting for HubSpot's APIs?

I'm asking that right now.

Are you? That's what I figured. But here's the thing, Dennis. We've built our APIs with developers like you and you and you and everyone out there in mind. We're constantly improving them, and we're constantly improving our documentation and the developer experience. This is all for you. What we're asking from the bottom of our hearts is on April 2nd to go out and vote for us in the Postman Developers' Choice Awards. I know what you're going to ask. You're going to ask, where do I go to do this?

Yes.

What I plan to do is after this episode on the homepage, I'm going to put the link and a blurb about this entire thing on there. I was going to do it in show notes, but we all know how well I keep up with show notes and episodes on the podcast. I'm going to put it right on the homepage. What you'll do is you'll go there either after this podcast, very shortly after, Or if you watch this within a certain amount of time, just go to the homepage and we'll have everything there for you to get to the right spot. It's April 2nd, so you have a couple days, but that's where you can go and you'll see it directly. There's also posts in the community as well, I believe.

Yeah, yeah, Pam just put some out there, I believe. Um, also, didn't you say something about you will personally autograph, uh, a photo of yourself for the first 100 people who, uh, actually sign this? Was that mentioned?

I mean, it was gonna be an autograph or a hat or maybe a t-shirt. I mean, there's options out there. I think most people are gonna want the photograph. I'll be perfectly honest.

Obviously.

But yeah, I mean, of course. But yeah, no, definitely. I can't guarantee you'll get something, but what you will get is you'll get the satisfaction of helping HubSpot out because HubSpot does so much to help you out.

Yeah, that's sales.

So there's always that too, right? There's that. So, but yeah, like I said, that'll be on the homepage. And then there's also posts in the community as well in the forums. where you can find all of that out. As always, whether you're watching it live or you've watched previous episodes, @HubSpotDevelopers on our YouTube channel is going to be the place to go for just about everything. We just had a deHug with some amazing people like Brooke, like Hannah, and others. And these are people that you're going to find on that YouTube channel that do have videos that are gonna show you how to do things. So, you know, there's a constant giving as far as content and giving back. As far as knowledge. So you should definitely check them out, uh, or all the videos actually, not just them. We're there too, don't forget, you can find us there too. So, you know, uh, you know, secondly as important as the others. But, um, on top of that, if you want to learn as well, don't forget you also have the Academy as something that you can also go to as well. Accreditations, just everything out there. Another thing that HubSpot does, you know, just to give the developer experience that much more of a boost. Please feel free to go and do that as well. Then finally, last but not least for today, something Dennis can tell you so much about, and that is debugs. Do we have any others coming up aside from the one we just had?

I'm glad you mentioned it, Nick, because yes, we do. We're still working on the logistics of the early April one, but we do have the late April one set, which is actually with Postman. Continuing our series on AI. They have some interesting AI features to help you out with your AI flow. So that's definitely going to be worth checking out. And I am working with our friends over at GitHub for one in May as well. So things are coming. Check out that site right there and you will see—

Thank you.

Thank you. Put it back on. A list of things we're doing. It updates semi-regularly with new content as quickly as I possibly can.

Yeah, you have you have my syndrome, don't you? Where it's like change logs, like the change log or the um the show notes syndrome there. Whether that happens, but it's okay. It's all right. But do you know what that do you know what that means? That means we're busy. That means there's a lot going on and there's a lot to do. And you know what happens? It's a lot to follow. So go to the change log if you want to know what's going on and you want to like that. You're just laughing at that segue. I know you like that.

I know you do. That was so good.

But you definitely know. I mean, that's the place to go if you really want to know what's going on, the changes that are being made. Because like I said, Just the stuff we're talking about right now is just the tip of the iceberg. There's far more going on. And I mean, it's impossible just to shove into one section of promos.

So, so cool.

You wanna go there?

And in full transparency, the reason why I'm laughing is many people might think that this is scripted. Nick just flies by the seam of his pants.

No, I don't have any of this written down. This is just—

this is written down.

Like, that's why there was, there was one where I started making up names where I was like, Bob's making fun of you at work. And then Mary's at the water cooler and go to the academy so you can learn some. I was just literally, I, That's why, like, we talked about trying to— we mentioned about breaking like an audio podcast record and somebody had mentioned like, well, after you talk for an hour, you would just get— and I was like, have you met me? I was just like, this is just what I do for fun. But nevertheless, I will not keep our guests waiting because we could be talking stuff like this all day. Like I said, I am biased. CMS, template marketplace, something I love, something I adore, something I've been ingrained in since I got here. Um, so episodes like this, I kind of nerd out. But without further ado, I will let Nathan introduce himself and tell everyone who he is and what he does.

Yes. Thank you, Nick, and everybody, uh, for pulling me in here today. Glad to be here. And, uh, I did my hair special for this podcast, so hope you appreciate that. Um, yeah, I'm Nathan Gifford. I'm the director of website services at Growth Operations Firm. a HubSpot agency. We just became Elite officially, so that's cool. I have been at a couple other HubSpot agencies prior, and like Nick said, I've been involved quite a bit in the marketplace for a while. And so that's, that's one of my favorite sides of of the HubSpot CMS. I like digging into that product side of things, so I've always been playing around on, on the marketplace. Yeah, I'm in North Carolina, so beautiful out today. I think it's going to hit 80 degrees.

Oh, come on, 70 here.

Yeah, yeah.

Oh yeah, uh, we're out more in the country, about 45 minutes out of Charlotte. Got some property with animals running around everywhere and a lot of stuff going on. But yeah, we're in a nice spot. And, um, yeah, so when I'm not outside doing that, I'm in HubSpot.

Now we follow you on LinkedIn quite a bit here, uh, between the 3 of us at least. Uh, there are— and I bring this up because this is going to be something Dennis is gonna really love. Um, but tell us about— because they're awesome posts.

They really are.

Because like, I'll be honest, you go on LinkedIn, right? And it's sometimes it's like, it's business heavy, like heavy to the point where it's like bombarding. And I'm just like, if I have to listen to one more person tell me about the great things that they're doing that make me sound just like, like I'm a bumbling idiot, like I'll lose my mind. But then there are people that post some really awesome stuff. Tell us about, and you know what I'm talking about, but tell us about these posts because I love them. I absolutely love them.

Yeah, I've, I've done some posts in the past where I've done like some parody songs about HubSpot. I think I did a B-52's Hub Shack.

Yep, yep, yep.

I did a Christmas classic, WordPress Got Ran Over by Your HubSpot, you know, stuff like that. So I've got some things that pop out every once in a while like that, but more recently have been Incorporating our livestock into, into posts, and usually our goats. So I've got— the number fluctuates a bit, but right now we've got about 10 goats, all Nigerian dwarfs. So they're the little smaller ones you normally use for, for milk. But we do breed the goats. So We have certain ones that we've acquired for that purpose, and we've got different pens. We got the younger ones here, we got the boys over here that are used for breeding, and because they have to be kept separate because they go berserk if there's a female around. Um, yeah, like, uh, we've got other animals— chickens and ducks and pigs and one sheep. Uh, had a donkey, we just sold him, so that was a bummer.

How much land do you have?

Uh, about 4.5 acres.

So that's like, that's a manageable amount, right? That's like your, uh, we, we're gonna change the whole topic of the show. It's gonna be very, uh, farm agrarian type of, uh, conversation.

I mean, it makes sense though. I mean, because pretty much all developers are involved in some kind of farming, right?

They better be.

It's pretty—

they're not really developers otherwise.

I mean, I don't know, some kind of livestock. In the backyard. Uh, but yeah, the— we, we got the house, we've been here almost 2 years, and it came with a rundown chicken coop and 4 chickens. And then—

That's my trade right there.

Blew it up from there. Uh, we, we came in and I remember the realtor shortly before closing said, hey, the, the seller wants to know if you want the chickens. If so, they're just going to leave them. And I was like, uh, my wife said yes.

I like your wife. I like your wife.

That's awesome.

Yeah.

But I mean, you think about it too, that's a way to unplug. That's, you know what I mean? Like, because it's one of those things where it's like, because we always say in some, like a lot of the episodes, like we'll ask, what do you do? Like, what are some of the things you do to unplug? And it's like, it's hard to come up with an answer that isn't tech related, right? To unplug from like your day to day, like, okay, I'm on the computer 8, 10, 12 hours a day. It's like, it's hard to pick something the minute you walk away that isn't, oh, I'm staring at my phone or I'm playing a video game or I'm doing something that's—

Mm-hmm.

That's— it's not doing the same thing, but it's— I mean, it's pretty damn close, right? So like, there's very few things nowadays where you will be able to just say like, yeah, I'm unplugged, I'm out, this is what I'm doing and this is what keeps me just kind of grounded, right? As far as— and I think like stuff like that is just fantastic, right? And you did mention— I was going to ask you, you mentioned that the parody songs. Now, is, is music something as well that you kind of do to try to like, as like a hobby to take yourself away from the tech?

Yeah, I, I grew up doing music and doing, you know, piano lessons and all that kind of stuff. Um, went to school for music, did not go to school for—

no joke—

web development. Um, when I went to college, the internet was new. So I did not grow up online, didn't have a computer in the house, nothing like that. So that's how old I am. When I go to college and I get an email account, like, what is this? So well, you have to use that because your professors are going to communicate to you with that. And so you go to different Unix stations across campus to log in, check your email. But But yeah, so, but yeah, I did, uh, music all growing up, the music performance degree at Indiana University.

So cool.

So that's what I was doing. Primary instrument, uh, being saxophone, but also doing a lot of piano, songwriting, singing. Um, I did that in a full-time capacity out of college for a while. And then kind of retired and shifted gears, uh, started my, my web business I did for a while. And, uh, yeah, music is— so I'm either doing music stuff or on a computer or chasing the goat. So one of the, one of those 3.

Nathan, have you, have you heard of this software? I'm not sure if you're on a Mac or not, but it's called GarageBand.

I knew you were gonna bring that up because of music.

I knew it.

Okay. Yeah, I was gonna ask that same thing too, which is fine. But yeah, go ahead.

Yeah, no, because I, I am on a Mac. I don't know what kind of person you think I am that I'm on a Mac.

Oof, someone in here might not like that. Careful, careful. Uh, submission might not get through very quickly.

It's just I, I've always just used Windows machines, so it's not like it wasn't really a personal choice. I built computers from scratch when I was a kid, like growing up, so I just, I never broke that Thank you.

Let me help you. Let me help you, Nick.

Okay.

Well, you know, I built computers as a kid. As an adult that needed to make some extra money, did that for a while, PCs. But just because that's what you've always used is not a good— that's like somebody saying, well, I've always used WordPress.

So, oh my gosh, Nathan, that's wisdom right there. That's wisdom.

I've been using WordPress for 20 years, so I'm just gonna stick with it. It's not a good reason. It's not a good reason.

Wow.

That's fair. No, that's fair.

That's fair.

Listen, I'm really, really— one of my worst habits is being set in my ways. You can ask AJ. And it's— no, it is true. I did. I will admit, though, I did. There was a year that I did contract work where I was on a Mac for a year, and it was fine. I just Yeah, I think most of it comes down to just me being lazy, basically. I just really am that, like, I, I'm scared of change. I am. I'm scared of change. But Dennis, tell them about the garage. Go ahead. Tell them about the garage.

Yeah. So, so last episode with Brandon Rogers, uh, um, Brandon said like when he was younger, he did some stuff in GarageBand and, uh, Nick assumed that that meant he was in a garage band.

When I read, okay, to be fair, in my notes, when I wrote it down to like what, like some things I wrote in, uh, GarageBand, and I separated the words out. So I thought, oh, he must have played in a band because it's not far-fetched. Like, people do that. But not realizing he was making music in garage.

I'm sure if you would have written that on a Mac, it would have corrected you to garage.

That's true. That's true.

All right, that's fair enough. Listen, I, I'm, I'm a big dumb animal. I— that is, that is my disclaimer on every single thing I do. And I, I'm gonna live with that mistake and I own it. I'm fine.

May I ask a silly question kind of off this topic, but remind what Nathan was talking about when he had his first email address in college. We're all of that age, I believe, where we got our email address at like our broody years, you know, so to speak. Um, do you— can you share what your, uh, first email address was? I'll start. Mine was apathetic_idiocy@hotmail.com. Wow.

I know my— my first— well, My first email would have been my student email, which is obviously not an exciting one. But after that, my first email was probably— well, probably my— I set up a domain name. I haven't had this forever, but I did ngsax.com. And I had a website there for a while, but nathan@ngsax.com, that was my email for a long time.

Okay, that's that's that's reasonable. I thought everyone would be like me and have some stupid.

I I did also have to make you feel better.

Thank you, please.

I I did have a because I someone at some point you know Nate Nate Dogg right? Okay, okay, that's a little bit better. And eight and eight. So now we're talking. I had NateDoggyDog@hotmail or something like that. I did have that for— so if that makes you feel better, it makes a world of difference.

World of difference.

I've never used that in a professional capacity.

You have now, my friend.

Nor does it still exist.

New templates coming in from Nate Dogg.

Yeah, this is gonna blow your mind, Dennis, but, um, because I'm such a fearful It's been pure San Fran. That's always been like my— at anything, it's always been— I've been— I'm a 49er fan since like as far back as I can remember. So it's always been either San Francisco Giants or San Francisco 49ers. So it's always been sports related. So it's kind of boring, but it's very consistent over a great period of time. So it's— I don't— I fear change. So it's— yeah, it hasn't really moved.

I'm a very boring person. I just use my name. Uh, with a, with a number appended to it. But also make you feel better, Dennis, back in the AIM days when, you know, okay, you know, the messengers back in college and stuff like that, I think my first one was Vader86602 because I liked Darth Vader.

Nice.

And then shortly after that, it changed into Teen Wolf, and I forgot what the numbers were after that because that kind of became my nickname through my friend group in high school because Believe it or not, my hair was similar to Nick's, but it wasn't a frohawk. It was like how my hair was now, just like a backwards spike. It was really— it was bad. Like, high school is what it was.

This is wonderful.

And I, I ran track only, only to keep in shape. Like, I was not good in track. But you know how, like, when people run track, they put, like, the, the spandex on because you got to run faster, you got to do— yeah, I'm Italian, so naturally, like, hairy arms, hairy legs. So I put the spandex on and it basically looked like my spandex had hair because it was that bad. So like my friends were calling me Teen Wolf because of that. So like it just kind of stuck after that.

And from now on you'll be called Teen Wolf by me.

Yeah, and it's now gonna be online forever.

So the live viewer count just plummeted, like just went like that. I was— let me ask you something because we're talking about, uh, Nathan, you had mentioned, um, being in— growing up and with, with a section of your life not having technology versus now into where we are. Like, I also was in that same sort of— I was having a discussion with someone just recently where I was explaining how I, I thought growing up like that, like having had, like, let's say half in and half out of the technology kind of sphere, to me is the best. And somebody was trying to— it wasn't really an argument, but they were saying, well, wouldn't you have rather like started in this kind kind of like technology boom where you could have gotten into it early and started like, and be so much more knowledgeable about X, Y, and Z? And I said to him, me personally, no, 'cause I liked experiencing nothing. And then the pager era where every like spoiled kid had to have like a pager for no reason when they didn't need one. Do you know what I mean? That was like the trendy thing. Like, what do you, do you think that having that experience of not having tech Going into tech is better, or would you have rather have said, "Well, maybe tech straight throughout." So I could. I mean, who knows if you could even be more caught up than you know if you had that. But do you? What do you think about that?

Yeah, I mean, pros and cons like anything. You know, I think people and you know, I feel like I'm probably like sixty years older than than the rest of you, but. The, the previous or the current generation or whatever that grew up with, you know, internet's just everywhere. And it's totally different when you grow up and you, you go to the library and you use the card catalog. And I mean, that's how I grew up.

Mm-hmm.

Well, it's a completely different world, and I don't, um, I don't discount it or wish, oh man, I wish I'd had the internet growing up, or that I had— would have had a PlayStation or whatever. I don't, I don't see it that way. I feel like there are things that, that I experienced that you had to, because if you're surrounded by technology your whole life, I mean, a lot of people, they, they don't do other things. They, you know, they don't They don't have goats, they just play on the—

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So you, you growing up, like, I didn't grow up on, on a farm, so I have some in, in my family, but, but just growing up doing other things than, than tech, and then I got into tech stuff later, I think that's what has been good for me because it has given me different experiences, different backgrounds, and There are things that I did even before I got into doing web development as a, like, a career. You know, I had a completely different job and career prior to that, and there are things that I did in that that were not related whatsoever, but there are skills that I learned— leadership skills, communication skills, different things that Translated and helped me today. That there are definitely times where I've thought, where would I be now had I went straight from college into some kind of web-type role? You know, I'd have been further by now, or— but there's things I would have missed out on at the same time. So I don't think I would change any of that. So getting, um, a blending of tech and non-tech, I think, is healthy.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You know, I, I absolutely agree. No, helps round you out.

The, the importance of boredom, right? Like, this is something that, uh, our children don't have to deal with. Like, there's always some sort of activity on a screen that can occupy them instead of having to be bored and actually have to figure out what you are going to do and be Be creative about it, right? That's a huge— it's a huge thing.

Yeah, no, absolutely. Um, let's talk a little bit about, um, getting started in the field that you're in now, because I know you had mentioned, uh, previously that, um, I think PHP, right, was where— was one of the first things that you kind of started in. Yeah, tell us a little bit about that, because like, I— similar situation, uh, from where I came from to HubSpot. So it's, uh, tell us a little bit about that.

Sure.

Uh, when When I shifted gears and, well, in college, I started learning HTML, you know, it was all new. And I was just curious, how do these websites work? You know, what makes it do this? What makes it— so I just started digging in and, and figuring stuff out, just because I was curious. And I'd always been that way. So I dabbled with it. for, for a few years and would do things on the side, or eventually start, you know, making a few bucks on the side doing some things. But in, uh, it was 2006 when I switched gears and started kind of doing this full-time. And I started, I started a business. And prior to that, I had been one of those— I don't know what you call it, uh, purist, maybe, uh, where it's like, no, I'm not using this tool and that tool. I'm building straight code. And, you know, I don't need to use FrontPage or whatever things, you know, were there, right? And, and I didn't. And so I thought that was, you know, the right way and was good. But the problem was I'd build a website for somebody and it would never get updated because They didn't know how to update it. It was just a bunch of code and they were not developers. So, uh, when I started my business, I'm like, okay, I need a solution where I can build something for somebody and they can actually maintain it. I need a CMS. And so of course this was back in time a bit. So I checked out some different things and I landed on Joomla, which Is, uh, not what you would consider popular anymore. At the time—

That's saying it nicely.

Yeah. I remember Joomla being, being a big, like, people want that.

Yeah, it was, it was being known for a number of years. It was, would always be voted number one CMS. And so it was definitely, um, a go-to at the time. You know, I came in at Joomla 1.0 days. So So like at the forefront. And so I landed on that. I said, this is what I'm gonna use as the foundation for this business. And I did. So I started building sites in that, then built some extensions for Joomla initially, because I had some clients that needed this feature, needed that feature. But then I thought, I bet other people could use these too, and put them out on Joomla's directory, kind of like Joomla's marketplace. And, you know, I'll make a few side bucks for the business. And for a few months it was side bucks, but then that took off, became the forefront of my business. A couple of those extensions got pretty popular. And so that rolled things for about the next 10 years. But towards the end of that, I, I sold it. I then continued to run it for a few years. But so I was in, you know, PHP, the open source, that whole, that whole realm for the first, you know, half or whatever of, of my career. And, um, you know, it was good. I, you know, learned a lot of stuff, but definitely saw it peak and start to go downhill. All the people in that community of Joomla extension developers, you saw them abandoning ship kind of one after another. It's, oh, we're doing WordPress now, or we're going over here. And so I kind of rode that and, you know, in that process sold and got out while the getting was good. And, um, still did it for a bit, but then ended up In that process, you roll back in time a little bit. You all know Gabe Wahab, and he had a Joomla-based company. And so a guy that was in near where I lived at the time that also had a Joomla company, we had connected and we did a Joomla user group like the like the The, the, they call them jugs, I guess. So we did one of those together and then his company got acquired by Gabe. And so he was working with him and then, and around that time I was selling my stuff. He's like, hey, you need to come over here and work with Gabe. Interviewed, was offered a role there, uh, but ended up doing something different. But then Later, Gabe's company was acquired by Square 2, a HubSpot agency. And then there he calls me up and it's like, hey, can you talk to me about coming to Square 2? I'm like, I don't really do HubSpot. Like, yeah, but you've done this and that. You'll pick it up quick. Like, okay. So I went in and that's where I started with HubSpot. So it's Gabe's fault. Uh, but now I, uh, I'm certainly grateful for that because, uh, but it, it was certainly a transition out of the stuff I'd been doing for years prior.

How many years are we talking?

Uh, full-time, um, 12 years.

Oh, wow.

Of Joomla and WordPress and the like.

Was it, was it like a freelance type thing or did you actually have employed, like a larger operation?

Uh, I, I had my own, my own shop and I had 2 or 3 employees normally.

Was that your— there's so many questions now. And once again, per usual, I, I apologize, Nick. I wanna start taking you over with questions. I, I, I have, I, um, so, so how was actually, was this your first business where you actually had to run it like a shop? Like, were you, cuz this is not just coding anymore, right? You actually had to get the clients, retain the clients, sell the clients, all that good stuff.

I had, I had done a couple side hustle businesses prior, but this was my first full-time web business. Yeah.

How did that change you? I mean, obviously, your focus cannot just be coding at that point, right? It's a whole different perspective.

Yeah, it's definitely— I mean, you're, you're doing everything. I mean, you're sales, support, you know, that you're All the hats. And, you know, that's, that's why I actually, you know, had a sales job at a web company for like 6 months before I started my, you know, like, because I knew somebody when I decided to move into that space. That's the role I took. But after a bit, I'm like, I can do this myself.

Yeah, yeah. So was your sales job The AOL CDs, were you just passing those around?

No, no, I did not. And actually, I'm proud to say I've never—I never had an AOL account. Right.

I mean, those CDs are now donned as artwork, probably across a bunch of stuff. I mean, they're fake chandeliers. I've seen them as just about everything. Yeah, no, that's.

I did have a Net Zero account for a while. Oh, Net Zero.

Yeah. There you go. Wow. Let me ask you about the, um, the— from the transition into starting the HubSpot, um, development, were there— what were things that you saw that kind of made you think like, yeah, this is something I want to start doing or focusing on? Because I mean, like I said, I also came from, uh, a PHP background before HubSpot, and it was more in like WordPress and things of that nature. And I also too had the same— it was a, um, And I'll have a follow-up question for you about breaking that habit of wanting to code everything as opposed to leaving it to, you know, like a system. But what were some of the things— first question— what were some of the things that you saw when you started that transition into HubSpot that you thought, okay, well, this is different, I like this, this is something I could stick with?

I mean, there's a lot of things that you can pick through, I did find elements of picking up Hubble that it seemed logical coming from PHP and JavaScript. It wasn't vastly different where I felt like I was learning a completely new thing. It's like, okay, that's a little different, that's a little different, but it's pretty much the same concept-wise.

Mm-hmm.

So I think it was certainly easy to make that transition. Like, it didn't feel like a daunting task.

What year are we talking about here?

We're talking 2018.

So can I push back on you a little bit? Yeah.

Before themes, for sure.

Yeah. What was it before actual local development was available? Oh yeah, right.

Yeah, way before that. Yeah.

Wasn't that transition a little bit difficult? Didn't you feel a little tied down to like not being able to do what you want to do?

Yeah, I did. Yeah, for sure. I mean, it was, it was just Design Manager, and of course the HubSpot CMS then to now is not even right. It's not even the same thing. Yeah, but Well, there were limitations for sure. I, I liked from the get-go just how everything worked together. Of course, how it works together with the, the CRM and the marketing tools and every— that's, I mean, it's hard, hard to beat that. You know, I'd spent so many years syncing up 12 different things, you know, like— Right. Emails in this tool and my contacts are here and my website files are here. That's so annoying. And having to sync databases and because there's always something that's not in sync. And always updating, updating your plugins or your components and, and making sure that all that works with whatever version of PHP you've got. And, you know, All those things that you're juggling, I had juggled and fought with for so long. When I didn't have to do that, it was just like, okay, cool. I don't have to mess with any of that.

Yeah, I always loved like logging into a, uh, like a PHP or a WordPress instance for like a, uh, you know, a realtor that you hadn't touched in a while, and all of a sudden it's like every plugin doesn't work because you don't have PHP 7. And I'm like, oh, okay. So then you got to do that and then update all of them. And then you find these 3 broke because there was multiple changes in between this time to that time. And I was just like, I— because you could even get like, there's, there's tools out there, there's, uh, like things you can overlay as part of like multi-WordPress, um, kind of management systems. But even in that, there's still limitations where you're still going to get forced. You can't, you can't like just you know, out of sight, out of mind, all of the other— it's—

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. For me, when I got to HubSpot, the first thing I said when I saw the way everything worked together was like, if I would've known, like if I would've realized, 'cause I mean, don't get me wrong, AJ worked at HubSpot at least 2 years before I got here, before he got me here, I should say. But still I was like, yeah, yeah, you're working in a new company. It's nice. Everybody says that, whatever, whatever. And then when I started to realize the actual way things were pieced together, like logically, I was like, Jesus, if I would have had this like years ago, my life would have been like so much easier.

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And yeah, it's definitely— and just looking at how, how clients handle what you build, what you put in front of them, going from something that they had to struggle and fight with To where you hand them a HubSpot site and every single time the response is, wow, this is so easy. I, I couldn't do this in my WordPress site, or I couldn't do this in my Sitefinity or whatever.

Right, right.

Every time the response is positive. I've never had anybody say, oh, I wish I would have stayed where I was. Never. And I always felt bad for clients before When they're paying me, I mean, I didn't feel bad that they were paying me, but you know, you feel bad that how much they're paying and they're not gaining anything new. All they're doing is keeping it working.

Right.

All this money to update this and to sync that and to move this, and they're getting nothing new out of it. There's no new functionality. They're just keeping it running and maybe a smaller chance of getting hacked.

Right.

Yes. Yeah. So it's, it's a, yeah, it's a whole, it's a whole different world. And I saw the benefits right away. And there's more benefits by the day. I mean, the HubSpot ad stuff, like there's probably been 6 new features while we've been on this call so far. So it's just constantly improving. And, you know, even when, when I first came into HubSpot, it's like, this would be great for this scenario, this scenario, but for these other things, you probably still need to use WordPress or something else. Now it's to the point where HubSpot will handle pretty much anything. And so all the All the HubSpot's good except for X, Y, and Z. The X, Y, and Z is pretty much gone. Love it. And it, you know, something comes to the table now, the potential client or project, the go-to is always HubSpot. And not just because I work at a HubSpot company, it's because I really believe that's the best route. You know, if there's a reason not to, sure, we'll talk about it. No solution is the perfect solution for everything. Uh, HostSpot's gotten really close to that. That's right.

Oh, by the way, we are actually going back. We're gonna— we decided to do more of a, uh, Joomla thing now. So, um, yeah, you're not gonna have a lot of people watching that.

The secret inbound announcement is scrap everything, we're going to Joomla. Dang it.

You heard it here first.

Probably last, because I'll be fired after this episode.

No worries.

No, I wanted to ask you about some of the pivotal moments in your career, because I know, and again, full transparency, we do have a questionnaire so we can kind of get things, spark conversation things. But I noticed one of the things you put in there, and this is a little bit selfish of me too. I know we talked about already selling the Joomla business, But there were a couple other things in there in your pivotal moments that I wanted you just to kind of talk about because one of them might be something that's directly related to me. So we might as well talk about it while we're here, I figure, right?

Yeah. So that pivotal moment being when I met Nick LaPorte, you know, that was—

It's a pivotal moment in everybody's life. Everyone's life.

Yeah. No. Yeah. I had put on there, Getting themes to the front page of Marketplace, you know, I obviously it's not easy to get there. You know, there's right now there's what about 500 themes, and when you launch a theme, you know, they're listed in order of downloads. So when you come in, you're at the bottom of the barrel, right? And and it takes it takes a while, and I've launched a number of themes the last few years, and it takes a while to. Get some momentum going and get those downloads coming. And you've got to get some reviews on there and get some enough downloads for people to think, oh, other people are using this, maybe this is worth my download. So it takes a bit to get there. But I've got 2 themes right now that are on that front page with, you know, crapload of downloads. And getting to that point was, was super exciting, uh, just to, to see it and knowing that, you know, knowing how hard it is, uh, to get there. So that was definitely, you know, well done. It's, it's, it's cool to be able to, to say, and it's cool to, to go and, and see it.

Oh, go ahead. Sorry, sorry, sorry.

No, no, I do it. To clarify a little bit too, just to kind of— it's not just the amount of downloads that you've gotten, Nathan, but there's more. Like, there's good reviews, right? There's usable— there's, you know what I mean? There's a level of quality, right, that you expect when you see something in whether that's any of the marketplaces, right? And then there's providers that we have that there's this level of quality that you just know is going to happen when it comes in. Right. And it's neither good nor bad because there's, there's a, there's a, there's a baseline, right, to get in.

Right.

Um, with stuff that like, um, and this, this isn't to be all gushy, but there's stuff that like when Nathan, like throughout like themes that you've submitted, they've been there. They've been, there's been this consistent quality that I've never looked at because I've, at least at the very beginning, like I was doing most, if not all of the reviews. And there was just, there were some providers you knew. And again, too, like experience also plays into it. If you've been experiencing on the HubSpot Marketplace, you will not make as many— and I don't even call them mistakes, but there's certain requirements or there's certain best practices.

Yeah.

But there's always been this consistent level of quality from like every theme and everything you submitted where it's been like, that makes a difference as well. Because, um, you can have like, you know, a theme that gets a ton of downloads. A free theme will get a ton of downloads, but it's not— it there's no guarantee that'll get you to the top because like when it's, if it's negatively reviewed, if it gets uninstalled constantly, like there are things where it's like, it's not only making something that gets up there and gets eyeballs on it, but it has to have this consistent level of quality to it. And your stuff does. And I think that's like one of the most important things, right? Because there's, you know, I look at templates kind of in themes as like, you can build them for a certain vertical, but there's, you know, there's things you can do where you could turn a dentist website into a real estate website or a real estate website into something else.

Yeah.

And the underlying thing that makes that possible is the thought process and the kind of pre-thought process of the developer who's building this thing with the customer in mind. And like, you'll find That on the front page of— on the second page, as you go through themes and even modules, like those top ones are the people that have put that process into practice, right? Thinking about the customer first, putting in the work and just having something that's— because I mean, you can build a theme and say, well, I got 50 modules. So mine's the best. It's like, less is not— or more is not always better. It's not, you know, it can be, you know, but I just wanted to point that out because like, that's, I think people overlook that. I really think they do. And then until they get their hands on like, like I think, uh, what was Apex, right? That was one of the ones that you did previously where it was like, when I reviewed that one, that was one I looked at and I was just like, okay, I could see you could use this for a conference. You could use this as like, you know what I mean? And there was just these like multiple, because when I review things, that's kind of the mindset I have.

So is it bad to actually like try to focus on a very specific vertical, or do you want the breadth to be very wide?

No, you could— there's nothing wrong with putting it in a particular vertical. I'm just saying like anybody who's— I don't wanna say talented enough, but with enough work you can make any theme be something else, right? Like just in general, like in general practice, you could give me a theme that was built for dentistry and I could take it, and if I knew what I was doing, I could pick it apart, switch it around. I can make a real estate website out of it, you know, in theory, right?

Right, right.

So it doesn't hurt. Like, there are— because like there's plenty of even the ones like in the marketplace that are geared towards a certain vertical. Again, you can, you can massage them and you can manipulate them if you like the way it looks and you like— the vertical isn't going to tie that theme. Because I think that's the one thing that I think template providers are— at least theme providers kind of get Um, they get locked into really quickly. And if they think, if, okay, well, if I— if one of the categories I pick is this, then someone over there is not going to buy it, when that's not necessarily the case. Like, they'll use the filtering options when they have something in mind where it's like, okay, I want this thing. But again, like, there may be something— there may be a vertical with 5 themes in it. And let's say, let's— because Dennis loves it, let's say real estate. Um, there may be a vertical with 5 real estate themes in it, and if they go through those themes and there's just something that's not in there that doesn't work. Like, there's nothing that says they can't go to a different vertical and say, I like this. Because again, the way the listing, um, page is kind of laid out, the new one, you know, um, because it was different. I—

but like, what if, um, what if I build something that is, uh, for photography? Something's like, like huge graphic heavy, does not a lot of copy, you know. That's not going to extend to a ton of different You can't manipulate that or massage that to some other industry necessarily, right? Would I be—

It depends. I mean, if you have the— it depends on your— I would say it depends on your variety of modules that you include inside of it. I mean, you can have a really image-heavy, I guess you would call it. I know that people give them different names, but like image gallery or photo gallery or things like that, which could be the main, like, of your demo pages could be the main view of it. But at the end of the day, if you're giving them, I don't know, say 7 templates and a good variety of modules, there's really nothing. But again, that's, that's kind of the thing where maybe you're just— because, because here's the thing too, you build that and you will have to service that, right?

Yeah.

So if your goal as the provider is, I'm going to build a photo thing website because this is what I want them to use it for. And this is what— if there's problems with it, if there's iterations, this is what the focus is, then obviously you should do that. Don't stretch yourself so thin with your theme that you're like, okay, well, I gotta put in 50 modules. Well, then you're going to have those problems with them. You're going to have to deal with those 50 problems, those 50 modules with problems. If it's your niche, and it's your focus, yeah, do that. Because like, there's plenty of people that have a theme With just one particular category or focus, but that's their bread and butter. That could be the provider's bread and butter, right? Like, if I were to do it and I didn't work here, I probably would attempt real estate if I was still working at, you know what I mean? So I wouldn't want to be like, yeah, maybe they could try to use this for dentistry if they want. If they want to go for it, if they can do it. But like, my focus is this, so I'm not really going to provide like dental library things for this. Okay, that makes more sense.

Yeah, you know what, listing pages for homes. I think a lot of it too goes into how it's built. Like you said, like an image gallery, right? If they used a file field versus an image field, now you don't just have an image gallery, you have a document resource library. Way other things. And I think that hints to that of like, when you build things, you can build them siloed like you want to if you're hitting a specific thing. But if you build it with flexibility in mind, then people can take that and turn it into whatever they need to. I remember I put an email template out on the marketplace like many, many years ago when I worked at an agency. And one of the things I did is in the like screenshots, I made it like 5 different, completely different industries to show demos of it because people are just gonna look at an email template and they're gonna go, okay, but that's not my use case.

But they're not thinking, flip it around, change it, mix it up.

Right. So this is why I'm not in the marketplace and Nathan is. This is— these are—

I was gonna say, plus you could do like 20-something photos in your, in your carousel at the— so I mean, like you have Plenty of opportunity. And then the future.

So yeah, I always stress to people that the, the template is a starting point, right? So that's one of the beautiful things about HubSpot's CMS is as flexible as it is, and if you have a solid theme, you can do whatever you want with it. That template is just an example. You could take every piece of that template, scrap it and build something new, or always put in a theme, always put in a blank page template. So if you want kind of a fresh starting point, but yeah, I've like one of the themes that I have is a real estate theme. It's the top one in that category. But I've seen it used for all kinds of stuff. Seen it used for a car dealership, seen it used for a Girl Scout troop. I mean, it can be anything, but if you build the modules flexible enough, they can be used so many different ways. And sometimes I like to take, um, uh, like I have in the, the newest theme that we did, it's a Redwood Industrial, and it's, you know, targeted towards that like manufacturing category.

Mm-hmm.

But again, could be used for whatever. That's just the default content. And, uh, but there is a, um, I just lost my train of thought on it. Oh, there, there's a module in it that, that, uh, once it was done, I kind of thought to myself, this is a pretty cool module.

Hmm.

It can do a lot of things, you know. And so I Made a little video. And so when people download it in that email, they get it, it shows that it gives a little tip and a little link to like a 5-minute video that just shows this module can do lots of different things. And, uh, that's so important.

I mean, I'm a freaking idiot. I, I, I, I, I, I am so good. I can mess up anything you got out there unless I have guidance on how to actually employ it. So I need those emails.

Yeah, no, that's because some people will build a module and, and then they say, well, I need to build 3 different modules for these different use cases. It's like, no, once you build one module, yeah, and build those 3 different options into the module you have, you can do your conditions and group your field, you can do all these different things. Make it easier on everybody building.

It's almost like a mindset you have to train yourself Yes. To like, right? Yeah. But no, you bring up a good point. Like, the, the post-marketing, I guess you would say, of the theme is pretty crucial as well, as well as the— I actually, one of the recommendations I give to theme providers is that blank page. Like, when I see like there's, when I see there's only maybe like a few templates, I say, much— I, I used to call it like the interior page, but the blank page, it's the same thing, right? It's just give them Uh, just to give them a blank sheet of paper, header footer, and let them, let them just try it out. Let them go to town. Let them see what they can do, right? Because there's some people that want to paint by numbers, right? And that's what the, you know, the demo content is for, right? When you may first make a template. But there's nothing that says somebody just doesn't want to try it from scratch. And then I— that's why I've always— what I— yours, your themes are the ones that I've seen it like the most in. And that's like one of those since then, like a lot of the recommendations I have are Basically, that is just give them a default page, give them a call, whatever you want. Just make sure it's blank and they know it's blank and then give them that option. It doesn't hurt because you don't need 50 templates. Like, that's the limit in the marketplace. But there's— I've never seen one that had 50 templates that couldn't do it in at least half.

So, but yeah, but that's all I think. Like the exact opposite, like where you have all the modules on the page so you can just see them all. Is that—

I've had ones. Yeah, I've had people do It's some of them do it like a kitchen sink or some of them do it like a brand kit, but there's like a like a brand page, right? That kind of like has everything on it. It might not have every module, but it has like a majority of them and ones that would really showcase the stylings, like the theme settings. Right. So they would kind of put all that stuff in there as well. So yeah, I've seen some really good creative stuff, but like a lot of the stuff that Nathan does is kind of like at this point now is. I recommend it as a staple for every theme provider to just not just be just to be successful, right? Not just in the marketplace, but the stuff you're doing post-sale is just to be successful overall, right? It's like one of those things and it gets lost in the phrase sometimes. But, you know, I really appreciate, you know, when you do stuff like that, because it is, I think it's game-changing, honestly.

Nathan, how many goats do you send to Nick for these These recommendations here.

Uh, I haven't sent him any goats, but you only have one left. I did send him a few bucks, and he's, he's saying everything just like I told him to.

Good, good. I'm reading from the script. That's probably— I mean, you know, I get, you know, I've— I— this is, this is how this, this podcast works, right? If with the right amount of money, I just— I will say, I mean, Hannah, Hannah paid me for the postman thing, so I'm like, I'm good, I'm just fine. I'm just kidding. Um, I wanted to ask you about, is there going through, like, because you've gone through, or you've gone from, like, from jumps like PHP to Hubble, and jumps from, like, having a business of your own to, like, going back or joining, you know, a company with others. Has there been any type of, like, I would call it, like, mentorship or, like, Any kind of advice people have given you that has really stood out to you that has kind of helped you along the way in your career?

Yeah, um, so one great piece of advice is, like I mentioned earlier, when Gabe said, hey, how about HubSpot? Uh, that is, is probably the, the number one because that's been a— that was just a real pivotal boom move for me. So that, that would be one for sure. And now I gotta send money back to you. But the something else that has been a kind of a key mentoring moment for me, that's not necessarily on the tech side, but has applied Uh, when I was younger and playing in a, playing in a, in a band, uh, that would— everyone else in the band was older than me. And I'm in there and we're in a first rehearsal. And at a breakpoint, this, this guy who ended up being a mentor to me for years, uh, just kind of leaned over and said, hey, less is more sometimes.

Mm-hmm.

And it's like, okay. He's like, you don't have to do all your tricks at once. And it's like, okay, noted, got it. And, you know, that was being applied in a musical scenario, but the same thing applies. And I've thought about that forever since, whether it be a website design. Some, some designers put something in front of you and it's like, that looks really cool, but that's so unnecessary.

Yeah, yeah.

It's like, that's going to take, you know, 8 and a half months to build and it's not worth it. That's not adding any value. We could take out this, this, and that, build it in 2 months, and it's not going to be any less of a product at the end.

Actually, right?

Yeah, exactly. So learning, you know, on the design side, sometimes less is more. And the same thing you mentioned earlier, Nick, but on the development side, just because you can build something doesn't mean it should be there on every page and every website. You know, could you add a scrolling marquee at the top of your site? Yeah. Should you? Probably not. But debatable.

Debatable. I think we all have them at all times.

But it's just that less is more, I think, applies across the board. Even when you're building your modules and templates and everything, you don't need 50 modules all the time.

Right.

Let's focus in. Let's get a solid set of tools in this tool belt. So I'm going to set up this client, or I'm going to set up somebody in the marketplace to have something that's solid, that's going to enable them to do lots of stuff, but I'm not going to bury them in so much stuff that they don't even know what's what or what to use. I'm going to dial, you know, focus it in. Less is more. Just less pieces, but each piece being as flexible and customizable as it can be, and it's there with a— in a— at a quantity level that's not overbearing for somebody who doesn't come in and say, oh, I don't know what to do with all this, I'm just gonna download something different. So yeah, the less is more, I think, applies across the board.

Indeed, totally agree.

I didn't like that. Let me— what is that?

Oh, we have a I was gonna say, and Nick, you might, you might be doing this, but speaking about advice from mentors, if I'm not mistaken, Nathan, you are a mentor as well.

Oh, well, well, it depends on who you ask.

Let's put that— are you part of the mentorship program?

Yeah, I'm in the mentorship program. As a, as a mentor, I should probably be in as a mentee. But I'm, I've got a couple mentees assigned. Um, and yeah, it's, it's going really well so far. It's, uh, it's cool.

Right.

Like, one of the guys that I actually have a meeting with him shortly after this podcast, but, you know, he's in, uh, another country, so we gotta work out the time zones and all that. But it's, it's been great because he's like a sponge. He just wants to learn everything that he can and You know, I appreciate people that have taught me stuff over the years. I'm self-taught on everything that I do on the internets. So, you know, if I can help somebody else and get them there faster than what I did, cool. Yeah.

Did you tell your mentee that he had to watch this podcast? That's required listening at this point.

It's like torture. I told him that that I was doing it. I did not tell him was required. Oh, oh, all right. Well, I'll find out. I'll I'll give you his name. You can tell me if he was on that.

Hit or miss. Hit or miss this mentor here.

Hit or miss. We need we need likes likes and subscribe.

He's on here. He's on here. Okay. Hello, Minty.

Excellent. Very nice. I like that. See, that's good. We're little by little just at. Person by person, we're gonna get there, Dennis. We're gonna get there. Joe Rogan, I know Joe Rogan's nervous. I know he's nervous. A lot of people nervous out there. Yeah, HR pretty much, or the legal department. Uh, that was like working all the time. Yep, there's like, yeah, they're hovering over like the cancel button, like, right? Yeah, yeah. Um, but, um, I know we're coming up on time and I know you got another call and stuff coming up, but I wanted to kind of wrap it up with asking you about like right now With everything that you're working on, what is kind of like the, your favorite part of the things that you're doing right now? And then is there anything that you wanted to promote or kind of give a shout out to?

Um, my just favorite thing, I would, I would kind of high level it, but I've, I've been in growth operations firm for, oh, 7 or 8 months now. Uh, it's been It's been great. Like I said, I've been at some other places, but I connected with Chris, who is the, the, the founder, and we connected online a while ago and just had this ongoing conversation that led to, hey, we should work together. And, um, you know, came over and it's, uh, it's been good because it's a, it's a great team, uh, incredible foundation and handling all things HubSpot. So it's been really good to be a part of this team and to be enabled to really build some cool stuff and to build this web services side of the agency. So excited about that overall. And there's tons of cool stuff that we're working on, lots of things very top secret that I can't share here, but just lots of cool stuff that we're working on. I'm excited to do for, for our clients and as well for Marketplace. Um, lots of things come in there on template and app side, so that's, that's cool. Um, and, uh, beyond that, as far as like promoting, uh, you have— I have the themes that have been mentioned. There's a— if you search Redwood, you'll find a, a super cool theme there. That's the newest one. Then you got Apex, which is an events base theme. Freehold is a real estate theme. And there's—

I love that name, by the way. That's awesome. It was a really good naming thing.

And it is free. All those themes are free. And then there's another one called Fusion, which is a little more creative than this. I think it's one that would be good for more of the image-heavy site. But Yeah, the, the, the 3 of those I had built at my previous job. And when I left, they, you know, couldn't come with me. And I felt like I abandoned my children. And it was very difficult. And I went to therapy. And, but, um, those are now actually right now in the process of transferring to, to Growth though. So I'm getting custody of my kids back. So that's, that's really exciting. Uh, so got lots of plans already for getting some, some nice upgrades to those themes right away, but then building some more stuff on top of it. So yeah, check those themes out, all, all free. So I mean, why, why not use them all?

Yeah, which reminds me, I have to work on that as soon as we're done. But no, I know, uh, Nathan, thank you so much for coming on again. Like, I, I have a sweet spot for the template marketplace, obviously. And, um, yeah, like I said, the things that you're doing as far as at least within theme creation are just some of the things that are now kind of not just recommend— they're recommendations, but I consider them like standards that I would like other template providers to follow in. So it's, it's really important. I thought it was hugely important for you to come on and just kind of tell your, your philosophy, your story. and your methodology and things. So we really appreciate it. And I want to thank you. Yeah, it was great having you. Did you guys have any other questions, AJ, Dennis, before we wrap it up?

No, not really. No. Like, thank you for also being a part of the mentorship program. Like, the knowledge that you've shared here alone, I think is a perfect example of why you actually are a great mentor, to be honest with you. Like, you, you have the experience, you've lived a lot of it, and being able to share that with other people is just phenomenal. So kudos to you for also Being a mentor, because like, I would love to, but I just have that nervousness and anxiety where I'm like, I don't think I can do it yet. But like, no, I'm— that's so awesome. And just thank you for being on.

Oh, no, seriously. Thanks for having me, guys. Anytime. Yeah. Anybody else, you know, catch me on LinkedIn or the developer Slack or community forum, wherever else. Or if you're in the mentor program, of course, I'm on that Slack as well. But yeah, happy to connect with whoever and chat more about this stuff.

Well, I want to thank everybody for tuning in and everybody who's watching later on. Also, if you're watching within enough time, again, go vote for us April 2nd. The link will be on the homepage of the website. It's also in the forums and the community forums as well. And I will leave you with this little, um, very impactful statement from Maya Angelou that love recognizes no barriers. Unless you're a theme, then pre-validation is a barrier and you got to pass it or you're not going to be able to play. Plain and simple. Plain and simple. This is just the rules. That's the standard I'm setting here.

He was so insightful.

It's the best I could do.

Nice. That was good. That was good.

Thank you. Later, y'all.