Ep. 20 - Spinning Confidence with Ashley Webster | Devs:After Dark

All you need is like 20 seconds of courage. And so I just told myself, that's all I need. I just need these couple seconds of courage and I'll be okay.

All right. Hello and welcome to Developers After Dark. It is May 2nd. It's a Friday and it's beautiful Friday, at least out in the Midwest. And what we're gonna do here is we're gonna have a little bit of a late show for you.

After-hours show. It's after—

this is one of the very few times that we get to say Developers After Dark and it actually is true. I think this is maybe the second closest we've gotten to it aside from, I think, Tuan. Tuan was pretty much on the money 'cause it was dark over where he was. So, but no, this is fantastic. Basically, What we're gonna talk about today is we're gonna have our guest, Ashley, and she's gonna introduce herself in just a second. But let me go through the typical paying the bills. Of course, I am your host, Nick, and with me as always is Dennis, and not with us as pretty frequently would, uh, AJ. I get to do that since he's not here, so that's all that matters. But, um, but no, um, for everyone on audio, it's, uh, devsafterdarkpod.com. That's the place where you can see us live as well as YouTube. And you can also see episodes, back episodes of everything that we've done thus far. We are actually milestone hitting episode number 20, so that's fantastic. I'm loving that. If you haven't, and like I said, you can go to @HubSpotDevelopers and YouTube if you want to see any back episodes, and not just us, but also go there too. There are plenty of other videos from our developer advocates, Brooke, Hannah, everyone, Ashley, everyone is there. That's where you get to learn a lot of fantastic stuff. So don't forget to go there as well. And then of course, if you want to know what's going on, always, always, always— I'm like a broken record with this, but it's okay— you want to go to the changelog, and that's developers.housebot.com/changelog. You're going to find out everything that's going on currently and upcoming as well. That's always important too, because If you're anything like me and you are going to get lost really quickly and you don't have a GPS, you're going to want to know what's coming up and what's happening. And this is kind of the way to do it because HubSpot does a lot and we do it fast.

So you know how expensive it is to fix your app if you've not— if you have a sunset coming up tomorrow and you've not dealt with it? No. Check out the changelog.

Mm-hmm. Absolutely. And then of course, Uh, it just happened about 2 weeks ago, and if you listened to us last week, you got to hear Ricky tell you all about this. But of course, we have the Developer Spotlight, and more specifically, we have the developer tools highlighted within the spotlight. So you'll go to developers.hubspot.com/ss25-dev-tools. There you'll be able to see everything that's been going on with the dev tools, from everything from, you know, brand new— well, not brand new certification, but upgraded app certifications, you're going to have app cards, of course, which is a big thing. There's plenty of stuff there to check out. And like we said, you definitely have to be up or at least keep up on some of this stuff by going to some of these pages because without it, it's going to move by pretty quickly. So, and then of course the Academy, go to academy.hubspot.com. I mean, I don't know what time it officially ends, but it is the last day of certification week. So you're going to really want to, if you still have time, at least on the East Coast, we're at 4. So I only got 2 done. Unfortunately, I'm kind of lazy. 2 certifications. But if you still have time, get out there, get it done, because some of the— what was it, $5, right? For every certification goes to educational proceeds. So you definitely want to take advantage of that and do a good thing. I mean, you're already watching this show, so you're doing a good thing as it is, but why not do 2 today? That's how I look at it.

Super simple. Yep.

With that all out of the way, let's get to why everyone is actually here, and that is with our guest, Ashley. So Ashley, why don't you tell everyone who you are and what you do?

All right. My name is Ashley. I am a developer advocate at HubSpot. I specifically work under a subgroup called the Developer Release Communications Group, and basically we just streamline processes to help maximize, like, developer engagement and internal alignment. And we also, like, centralize and scale all developer-facing. So, that's what I currently do.

You, uh, you have to work with this guy named— what's his name again? I don't even— he doesn't show up to this show anymore, so I've kind of blanked on his name. Uh, what's his name?

Yes, I have to work with AJ, which he's great to me. So, you know, I don't understand, like, you know, all of the other feedback, but he's a good guy to me.

All right.

All right. Maybe like, let's try to—

I feel like you're trying to get Ashley to say something about, yeah, AJ. What is it, that he's not around? Maybe we will tell. Not everybody gets to work with the better half of the reports, but that's okay. That's all right. It's, it's, you know, it happens. So why don't we jump right into Ashley? Why don't you tell us like kind of how you got started into like what was the thing that kind of sparked everything off with? Because like everybody has that, like we always kind of preface it with everyone has that moment, right? That kind of, that one thing that happens that kind of gets them into, like for us it's the, like the HubSpot industry essentially, right? Like what HubSpot does. Like what was the one moment that kind of happened with you that kind of got you into this whole tech sphere and got you interested?

Um, so I, Before I got in tech, I worked in operations for like 10 years and I feel like I just hit a ceiling. I just wasn't fulfilled anymore. I wasn't being challenged. And, you know, working with technology and code is something I grew up with. I grew up with a computer. I worked with computers in high school. So once I got to that point where I was just feeling unfulfilled in my operations, operational career, I just kind of quit my job and just went soul searching to figure out like, okay, what do I want to do next? What's more fulfilling for me right now? And knowing that, you know, coding has always been something I enjoyed, I decided to just explore more. I started off just freelancing and then I went for my first developer, my professional developer job at Warner Music and kind of just been in the tech ecosystem since then.

Warner Music, eh?

Yeah, it was actually a really cool job. I built a lot of cool applications there for their fan engagement department. Yeah, it was a really cool job. I will say that.

That's awesome. Was there a moment where you kind of thought to yourself, like, 'cause I know you said you kind of felt like you hit a ceiling, was at that point, did you had started looking and found HubSpot, or were you aware of HubSpot at that time, or was this still?

I wasn't aware of HubSpot at that time. I didn't discover HubSpot until kind of later on into my career. At first, you know, I was doing development for Warner Music for a while, and then I actually took— got into developer relations at first with Wix.com, and then that kind of led me to HubSpot from there. So I came in it kind of not knowing what HubSpot was and kind of just learning on the way, but just knowing that It was a product people love to use and I wanted to be a part of it.

That's awesome.

What was that transition from Warner Music to Wix? I mean, that was like a different role altogether, right?

It was. So the only reason I kind of left that role was because they shut down the whole fan engagement department. So, but within that job, I knew like I enjoyed building applications. Like again, we built some really cool things for the different label artists there. And so I love to code. But, um, just knowing how I needed to like learn, pick up things quickly as a developer and having to learn things on the job, I knew I kind of wanted to enable and empower other people in my position to be able to pick up things quickly too. So I just started kind of searching within the, you know, tech industry to see what was possible for me to be able to explore that.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, the transition was, it was actually fairly easy. I mean, you know, DevRel is different at every company. But I was able to kind of just ease right into it because I already had that passion to want to like knowledge share and, you know, help build a better product for people.

That's awesome.

Did you get to, I gotta ask, did you get to meet anybody, like any musicians? Did you get to, did you run into them in that or?

I only got to meet Grateful Dead. They were the only musicians I got to meet. But the label that I worked for was Rhino Records. And so they, Like Fleetwood Mac is under them, like Aretha Franklin, like a lot of the greats are under them. And I actually built an application to be able to capture like viral moments on social media so we can like help boost like artists, you know, sales, whether it's tickets or CDs. And this was at the time where like TikTok was like just coming out. Anything you post on it, Going viral and everything. And I was able to like capitalize on like, it was some video of some guy, he was like drinking juice on a skateboard and he was listening to Fleetwood Mac. And we were able to kind of like capitalize on that, you know, on that video going viral through the application. So yeah.

And I know what you're talking— I know exactly the video you're talking about.

Yeah.

Awesome. Yeah. I'm sure everyone does. I act like I'm the only one that's seen it, right? But yeah, no, that— A little-known fact too, I actually lied to Dennis and told him that, uh, the font Libre Franklin was named after a reader. Just, I'd— that's my contribution to being, yeah, being a smart aleck. But, um, but no, that, that's really, really cool because like, for me, like doing that kind of stuff is, I don't know, you also seem like somebody who really wants to, when you build something or you're creating something like the enjoyment is how everybody else gets to use it.

You know what I mean?

'Cause there's people who are like, I built this awesome thing, it's really cool because look what I did. You, the first thing you said was like, look, everybody else got to see like how everybody else got to use it.

Yes.

Which I think is like fantastic. That is like the most beautiful mindset to possibly have when you're creating. Yeah, I agree with this about anything, right?

Yeah, and I guess that having that mindset just made it like my transition into, you know, from an engineer to, you know, developer relations like easy. You know, it didn't seem like, you know, I was in some foreign space. It was kind of felt like this is where I'm supposed to be, even though, again, I do love to build things. I just love to empower people more.

No, that's fantastic. Where, at what point did you like kind of discover HubSpot and like what kind of drew you to HubSpot in general?

I just happened to come across just an opening for the Associate Developer Advocate role. And what was unique about this particular, like, job listing was they mentioned something about, like, working on the changelog and being, you know, streamlining the changelog process. And I'm like, okay, that's cool. This, you know, DevRel job or organization seems a little different. So it just seemed like a challenge. And because I'm an operational person, I'm like, okay, I can even bring those skills here, you know? So that's kind of like what drew me to HubSpot and wanted to get more curious and Be a part of the org.

Well, when you're—

oh, go ahead.

I was gonna say, yeah, like, what were you doing at Wix as a— in the DevRel department? What was the actual difference?

Um, so it was more of, hmm, what was the bigger, bigger difference? It was very like content-driven and event. Um, we were very just kind of like event-heavy and didn't really work as Uh, close and collaborative— collaboratively internally. And I feel like I get that pleasure here at HubSpot. I, we, we work for a lot of people within the organization doing a lot of different things, and it's not just, oh, go to this event and show up.

Right, right.

So, um, that was the bigger difference. And again, like, DevRel is different at every company, but I do appreciate being able to work more closely to the product.

Do you happen to have in a closet somewhere a box full of Wix stickers and, uh, coffee cups?

I do have stickers. I have stickers, I have notepads, I have pens.

Yeah, yeah.

No coffee cup though. No coffee cup. I was actually hoping I could get like a HubSpot coffee cup. I saw someone on a meeting.

It's all right. I'm just—

I'm just like, how can I get one?

I've never seen the coffee cup then, honestly.

I got one. I got one.

Did you? Of course.

See, you gotta, you gotta know people.

Exactly.

And I'm sure too, on the job listing, Ashley, I'm sure the, uh, Works with you get to work with Dennis is probably on there because I'm sure that's the big draw for most people.

Not later. I didn't find out I was going to be working with the celebrity until way later, but you know, it's been nice.

So smart to do that.

Yeah, I'm celebrity adjacent, so I get to I get a little bit of the benefit. So it's it's nice. It's nice. Dennis is what we call a wealth of knowledge.

That's yes, with something.

Okay.

You know what, speaking of like first starting out and everything, was there something or was there anything that kind of surprised you about whether that was first starting out at HubSpot or first starting out just maybe first job? 'Cause I mean, it depends, like you can answer it like a couple of different ways, right? Because depending on, like for me, when I first started here, it was a lot different, big company versus small company. But, um, was there any things that surprised you when you, when you first started out?

I was surprised by like how smart everybody is, and at first it's a little intimidating, but it's also like it was very just admirable to be in the same place with these smart people. Um, so it, it, I guess I was a bit humbled coming into my role at HubSpot because it was just like, I was just constantly thinking like, how am I ever going to be as smart as these people that I'm working with, you know?

Mm-hmm.

Just realizing that you have to just give things time, you know, just with time you'll get there, you'll get experience, and you'll be able to share your own little piece of knowledge that you've learned, you know, on your path. But, and that's just tech in general. One thing that surprised me is just how vast it is. Like, I don't have to just be an engineer, you know, I could be a lot of things within the tech space, and a lot of transferable skills can go into different rooms. So I would say those are the 2 main things.

Was it— was the remote aspect of it? Because I know how I thought about when I started working out of spot. Yes, everyone's freaking smart, smarter than I am, and I don't see them and I don't know what they're thinking about me. Did you have a feeling about it?

I did too. I did too, because I wasn't sure, like, am I picking up things quickly as I should? Do they think that I'm not fit for the role? And that kind of goes back, you know, kind of goes into imposter syndrome, but just kind of not knowing You know what pace I needed to be at, but I kept getting reassured by you all. Like you know things take time. It's gonna take six months, twelve months, and then once that really stuck to me and I stopped pressuring myself to be like in a position where I will probably be in a year from from now in this moment, you know it got easier. I was able to focus on just learning the product and learning the ways of DevRel and everything. Yeah, yeah.

Did you come from a, in the other roles that you had, were they smaller? 'Cause like one of the big things for me was just the vast size of, I mean, like going from, let's say, you know, like 10 coworkers to like what HubSpot has. Did you have a similar thing like that or were they fairly large?

They were all pretty fairly large, you know? I didn't, outside of just freelancing, doing my own thing and then going into like a big company, I think that was like the biggest, like, Um, drawback, but even then I kind of like seamlessly kind of integrated because of the work I was doing. I was able to just pick up quickly. But from there, I've been mostly at like pretty similar size companies.

Hmm.

Awesome. You, now you touched on imposter syndrome. Now I'm glad you did, 'cause that's a good segue, 'cause I wanted to ask you, because this is one of those things we were talking right before we went live about this, and it was absolutely fascinating. Tell us a little bit about, 'cause one of your milestones, or we call pivotal moments, was, I'll let you explain it, explain the situation, but I wanna commend you on it too, because the subject matter of it and talking about it is, it's impressive. So, tell us a little bit about that part.

Wow, good build, good build.

Okay, so, a pivotal moment in my career was when I gave my, my speaker session at the Render Atlanta conference last year, and it was on like overcoming, you know, imposter syndrome. And at first I was a little hesitant because I'm like, oh, this is not a technical session. Nobody's gonna be interested. You know, should I be focusing on tech? But I just thought it was, it was valuable. It was something that I had been dealing with, you know, all this time. And I just kind of wanted to share ways that I, you know, overcome it. And I was really surprised, like, by, like, the response I got. Like, it was a completely filled, you know, room. It was standing room only. So many people reached out to me on LinkedIn, like, thank you, I learned a lot from the session, you know. So it just felt nice that, like, despite it not being a specific technical, you know, subject, I was still able to, like, give value to other people, you know, on a subject that It's touching us all. Like, I still deal with it today, you know? Like, I still deal with imposter syndrome to this moment. I just kind of navigate it better, able to kind of shut down those thoughts or like, you know, pivot away from that doubtful thinking. But yeah, that was definitely a pivotal moment. I had never done a speaker session, you know? So that was also a thing. I'm like, should my first speaker session be technical? They're gonna, you know, think that I'm a tech professional, even though I'm talking about this thing. So, still having those imposter syndrome doubts. Why try to prep for an imposter syndrome session?

I have to add to that though, because you, how many, you were like in the month-ish, month, 2 months into working at HubSpot when you did this?

Yeah, it was, it maybe like 6 months, maybe.

Like, why? What is that?

That's, that's, that's intense.

Yeah, but I'm really grateful I did it. I'm going to give a shout out to Brooke because she mentioned something that's very true. All you need is 20 seconds of courage. I just told myself, that's all I need. I just need these couple seconds of courage and I'll be okay.

That's amazing. No, that's what I wanted to say. I wanted to give kudos because that's like, okay, that was going to be my follow-up question was, have you ever done speaking engagements like that before? first time speaking, talking about something that's— it presents vulnerability, right? You're exposing a vulnerable, like, kind of side, you know? So you're first time speaking, talking about something that really expresses kind of that vulnerable state and doing it on a stage and at a level that's like, that's pretty— like, public speaking is a fear in general. So you like—

Yeah.

So, you know, kudos to you on that because that is like, That's the trifecta of just like scary, right? And you just walked in there and just said, right, I'm doing this.

Exactly what I did. I walked in there, I was like, I'm just, I'm doing this. Like, I have— I also just value, you know, I, I really just like challenging myself. Like, I like trying new things. I like pushing myself to that next level. So I knew, I'm like, okay, if I want to unlock that next level and, you know, wherever I'm trying to go after this, I'm gonna have to do it. I'm just gonna have to do it.

So that's amazing. That's amazing. I was gonna say, like, that trifecta of scariness is also possibly the most fun content to watch. I mean, like, it's like, it's like you're so connected with that person because they are being so vulnerable yet so confident, you know? It's, it's, it's good stuff.

Yeah, I tried to just follow the philosophy, never let them see you sweat, like, act like I've done this a million times. So yeah, it worked out in my favor.

I mean, when I went on stage, I had this Nick guy next to me. I just heard incessant beeping next to me, you know. So that was how I was distracted the entire time.

Did you ever hear that story, Ashley? I did it.

I did it. I would love to hear it.

I, uh, I have a, um, uh, a glucose monitor, like a wireless one, right? And, uh, in my infinite wisdom, I, I said to myself, okay, well, I don't want this thing beeping, or I don't want this thing going crazy, so I'm just gonna I'm just going to pretty much turn it off so it doesn't bother me during the, during the talk, not realizing like turning it off and like cutting the connection between it and my phone will cause the phone to beep telling you that you've lost connection.

Oh, wow.

Never did. For some reason that escaped my mind. I've been using it for years, so I should have known this. And then sure as shit, like right in the middle of like Dennis talking, my phone just starts going. Yeah, just this. I'm like, I, I froze because I was like, that can't be me. I turned it off. And yeah, so I literally had to like— I just went off, like I walked towards the side of the stage and just looked for the softest thing on the ground and just threw my phone and just turned it off and just threw the phone.

Like, I'm— Good way to improvise.

Oh yeah, yeah. I was like, I felt so bad because if it had been while I was speaking, I wouldn't have cared as much. But it was literally— I stopped and Dennis started talking and then it just started. Yeah, so. I plan to, uh, record that sound and just Play it in meetings when Dennis is in there and then just send it to him.

Yeah. So I wake up in cold sweats sometimes.

I'll just, I'll call from a number that's not registered and you'll pick up and it'll just be that sound, like sort of a horror movie. Yeah. That'll be great. That'll be fantastic.

Ashley, you plan on continuing talking? Is that something you want to do more of? I mean, should we be getting ready for inbound?

Yes. I'm hoping. I did submit a talk with Bree. Shout out to Bree. Hopefully, I don't know if we got picked, but hopefully we did. So I am looking for different ways to put myself out there. I'm more of a meetups person. I hadn't done the speaker sessions before, but just continuing to challenge myself. If I see anything interesting, I at least want to commit to one a year if possible. So yeah, I'm looking to speak more for sure.

That's fantastic. No, that'll be great. Yeah, it always amazed me too. Like, I guess I really had never thought about it in that concept where it's like you can do public speaking, but it doesn't necessarily— like, because the minute you hear public speaking, you think like, okay, a room full of how many hundred people, right? Yeah, where you could still, in a meetup type of sense, still do a public kind of talk, but it's more casual, you know what I mean? It's more like this podcast versus being in an auditorium or that kind of thing. So it's like that to me, I never really— is weird, but I never really, um, thought of it in that, um, sense. But I mean, yeah, I'd have to say too, I agree, uh, that the meet— I like the meetup sort of.

Yeah, I think it's a little more casual, a little more natural, you know, less pressure, you know, everybody's just going.

So yeah, you can just run out of the room Right. You know, especially for me. I said, if you start beeping, yeah, you run out of the room. If you're in a small setting and you're just beeping, you could just run out of the room.

Whereas if you're on stage, very easily, yeah, kind of stuck.

Yeah, absolutely.

Um, the meetups, Nick, I just want to mention, uh, we're gonna be in LA with you soon, right?

Yes, we're gonna have an actual meetup. Yes, and I will be there. Hopefully you all will come if you're in the LA area, um, or going to PostCon. I hope to meet you all. We are going to host a meetup there. So looking forward to that as well and maybe having to do some booth duty. So looking forward to meeting people that way. But yeah, that's like our next event going on where you can like meet me, Dennis, and the rest of the team.

Not Nick. Nick doesn't do— I don't know. He's a weird one. Doesn't do travel very much.

It's a long car ride, but I mean, it, yeah, I might skip out on that one.

Just, uh, Ashley, we've been talking about for inbound getting a bus and driving it across or Winnebago so we can go pick up Nick because he won't fly and go to San Francisco.

If I wasn't already right there in LA, I would be down. Like, let's do a road trip. Yeah, I would be down.

I mean, Steve, our director Steve did mention that this podcast could go on the road, short trips obviously, but You know, it's possible. It's— there's possibilities there. There's definitely possibilities. Um, let me ask you this, Ashley. Um, I'm gonna, I'm gonna go on a limb here, but it seems like you are the type of person that can take a problem head on and just kind of dives in and tackles it, which is, like I said, not everybody can do that.

That's right.

Uh, there is a certain amount of fear there that does paralyze some people from doing that. But are there any other challenges, um, that you're currently facing that you're kind of looking at from like the work perspective? Aside from like imposter syndrome and things like that, are there any other things that kind of stand out to you that you're— because you have a really great philosophy on like challenges as well, which some people are kind of like, ah, it's too hard, I'm out. But you, you know, is it— do you know what I mean? Like to have that philosophy as well is like, it's a good set of skills to have. Are there any— to go back to the question, sorry, I just kind of rambled. It's all good. But are there any other— are there any other challenges that you're kind of facing right now that you're kind of looking at to tackle?

Um, right now, my biggest challenge right in my current role is like saying no, um, and knowing what to say no to. You know, you want to help everybody, you know, you want to challenge yourself with these different things, but then you rack up a bunch of tasks and you're like, oh, what am I gonna do? So just, you know, feeling more empowered to kind of just say I don't have the bandwidth and, you know, just help where I can in the ways that I can. And even in life, you know, saying no, being empowered to just say no without guilt or shame or like worry or anything like that. So like, that's a challenge on top of everything else you mentioned, just, you know, being more comfortable with saying no, you know, or just saying this is not in my bandwidth right now. And also just finding alternative ways where I could like help a person, which is not more— which doesn't have to be directly. So, um, Yeah.

That's— I think that is the paradox of being a developer advocate, honestly. Like, a good developer in an interview, question should always be, can you say no?

Right.

Agreed.

Agreed. Agreed. And especially on the, like, subset of work, you know, that I do, it can be like, very like, I need, I need, or can you help? So just kind of picking and choosing what I can do, and being confident in what I can do. And you know, knowing that everything else will work out.

You know, master that and you just teach me.

Okay. I was gonna say, yeah, it's so hard to tell. Yeah, it's because you want to like help everybody. You know, you but you don't want to ever say like I can't help you, right? Because that's I mean when you're saying no, you never want to say that.

You just never want to say no. You know, yeah.

Because it's like one of those things you never want to hear either when you need help, right? So it's like it's really hard to. Yeah.

But no, I've gotten used to it. Nick Dix does it to me a lot.

Oh yeah, I tell Dennis no all the time. I was like, yeah, no, I, I, you know, I can't give you a reference to be on this show, Dennis.

No, I can't do this.

You know, I can't make you famous, Dennis. No, sorry, stop asking.

Dennis is already famous. You don't let him trick you into thinking he needs any more fame.

Thank you, thank you.

Um, one of the things I wanted to ask you was, um, if there's— is there any kind of Because it's slightly different depending— because I mean, we're all like, in full transparency, we're all in the same department, right? But team to team, it kind of does differ. But are there— what's a common myth that you found about your job that you've noticed, right? Like something that just kind of stands out for you?

That we're just tech influencers or just content creators or any type of just influencers. I've heard that about, you know, developer advocates, but we're also— we're just so much more than that. Like, we are so much more. Although some of us are content creators, we're also like product strategists, you know, we're community builders, we're— we write technical content, we help, you know, drive product adoption. We do all those things, and sometimes it can be through content, but that's just not who we are. So I would say that was like biggest myth that we're just some type of tech influencer.

Yeah, shout out to Ashley because she does like the developer feedback. And she triages all that. And man, that's, that's a, that's a painful job. You do a great job of it.

I appreciate it. I appreciate it. It is, it can be painful. But you know, I learned a lot about, you know, our users, I learned a lot about the product that way. So I try not to, you know, think of it on the painful side.

Okay, good.

Would you say then that your favorite part then is— I know, because we touched upon it a little bit. I'll ask you, like, what then, what would be your favorite part about knowing that, you know, that those are some of the common myths about it? Then what is like one of the favorite parts about the job that you do currently?

I really enjoy, you know, in any way that I can just helping, you know, building products that people love to use and that really, you know, meets their needs. So whether that's with a piece of content, you know, whether that's like putting a resource in the newsletter, whether that's like a social post or whatever it could be, you know, just making the product better that the, you know, users love to use and that they feel is, you know, does the best for their needs. So I think that that's like my favorite part of being in DevRel.

Oh, that's awesome.

And also working with really great people. I work with some really great people, very smart. I get to learn from them every day. So that's another part.

I love it. Oh, that's fantastic. How about, um, this is one of the questions I love, uh, personally, just because of the fact of, and obviously you get a different answer every single time, but I think what you can take out of the answers, uh, especially since I mean, even when I'm not on the podcast, even when I've asked people this, no one's ever given me basically the same answer. Not even close. But like, with regards to like mentorship, like what is some of the best advice that someone's ever given you? It could be within the industry that you're in. It can be just like throughout your career. But like, what is like some of, and there could be more than one if you even wanted, but Um, yeah, so what is like some of the best advice that you've been given?

I think my— the best advice that I've been given is like, stop taking it personal. Like, sometimes we do our very best and sometimes we fail, you know, or fall flat, or it just doesn't work like— work out, you know, how we want to, or anything in life. And a lot of times it's just not about us. Sometimes it's always about the business. And once I just started looking at the bigger picture and stopped You know, internalizing it. Like, is it me? I'm a failure. I'm not doing this right. You know, that was like one of some of the best advice, like stop taking it personal. A lot of times it's just not about you. You know, you just have to kind of just pivot and not internalize everything.

Do you have any tools that you use to actually do that? Because it's— I have to admit, that's a hard one, right?

Probably one of the hardest. Yeah.

Yeah, um, I think that, you know, just being confident in my abilities, knowing that I did my best work, and then just, you know, seeing what lessons I could take out of it kind of helps, you know. Um, and then truly understand, like, it's, it's just business, you know.

Mm-hmm.

When you see it happen to another person, or, you know, or in a different way, that you are— you start to understand, like, okay, it wasn't about me at all, you know. Um, So just staying confident in my abilities, seeing what I can learn from it, if any, if it is about me, you know, those are kind of the tools.

It's one of those things where I feel like it isn't something like even with the advice, it's never something that you ever will be able to be like, oh, I've been given this piece of mentorship advice. Now I can correct it. Yeah, check off the list. Like, I feel like it's one of those things that you will constantly have to— there was another one too that I can't remember who we were talking with a couple of weeks ago where it was the same, uh, the same principle where it was like, sure, it's easy, and if it's written out, if you read it, sure, it makes perfect sense, should be easy. But like constantly you are having to remind yourself.

Yeah.

To do that. Even, even currently, like still, I still take things personally and I have to stop and kind of be like, let's read, you know what I mean? Like I get way too like focused on it and like they, you know, they call it like Um, 10,000-foot view and just kind of like go back and be like, okay, this has nothing to do with me. Why am I even getting—

Yeah, taking a step back, you know, like allowing yourself to like, you know, feel those frustrations. We all want to do our best. Nobody wants to hear like, oh, like, you know, it didn't turn out, you know, how we planned. So just taking that step back and kind of just allowing ourselves to like, okay, I'm frustrated. I wanted this to look a different way, but it didn't. Is it, is it really about me? Or, you know, like, how can I see this differently? And just talking yourself kind of through those, those moments help too.

I—

oh, go ahead.

Sorry. A former employer of mine would send out these emails. And I always took personally for a while, then I realized he did this all the time. He'd always do all caps on it. So it looked like he was yelling at you. And I realized I just— you just You just don't know how to type. You don't know how to turn off the caps lock, so it's not a big deal.

Yeah, like that whole remote thing, you know? Yeah, those are always the best moments when you realize like, oh, this is, you know, everybody— you do this to everybody, or this is always happening, or this always happens that way. And then you kind of— you're able to like bring yourself back to like, okay, I'm good, I got this.

I feel like, uh, you know, technology has just changed how we have to be able to emotionally Evaluate what they're trying to say. Like, you know, when you don't— when you communicate only on Slack, or, you know, a text message, so much context is not conveyed through that form of communication. You feel like, oh my God, this person hates me.

Yeah, I've had a few moments like that. Because we're all just typing and you're deciphering, well, oh, he put a dot this way today.

Yeah, right, right, right.

Yeah, I get that.

Another shout out to Caitlin too with the being more human on Slack. Like, it just, it really, really makes it that much more important. I really did also too, I really love your answer on the mentorship as well, Ashley, because it kind of brings it full circle to the imposter syndrome. Because like, when you're taking things so personal and you get so hyperfocused on it and assuming it's about you, you start to like, then that self-doubt creeps in and then you start thinking like, well, I must not be good enough because like how this is like, look at how they're all, they're all talking about me when it, you know.

Yeah.

So yeah.

Right.

It's so important. Yeah. And it's, it's kind of nice how that kind of helps. It helps alleviate a lot of like some of the, the little pockets of issues that come up when you're, when you are kind of hyperfocused like that and maybe taking something personal that it's not.

Yeah.

So it's, um, no, but it's a really, a really beautiful way of kind of looking at it. And like I said, it's— there's honestly, there should be like someone of those, like, uh, like I have one in the office here where it's like keep calm and carry on type things. Don't take it personally should be one of those signs as well, where it's like, just so you can look at it every once an hour just to remember that that is in fact—

Are you, are you saying we got some, uh, Developers After Dark swag coming out with that? Uh, Put that on it.

Well, I mean, you have volunteered for me to sign a bunch of stuff, so I mean, I guess we should have something in the works.

Now I have to ask for a shirt. I don't, I don't have anything Developers After Dark, but I see— I think I've seen Dennis with the shirt and I was a little like, Dennis has something.

We are, we are, we're gonna get that. Okay, we are gonna get that for people. That's, that's in the works. That is in the works. We, uh, We're trying to, we're trying to get, uh, you know, there's, there's a lot. There's a, you know, t-shirt cannons. There's, I mean, there's, there's some things that we kind of have to scale down because we, you know, we're shooting for the stars here. But like, yeah, there's— we're gonna have to be a little bit more realistic in our approach there. It's a process.

It's a process.

Okay.

Um, but let me, let me kind of shift gears a little bit because, you know, uh, for a good portion of most of our episodes, we definitely like to talk about the careers, right, of a lot of our guests. But then there's also the The other half of our guests, and that is they're kind of like IRL or in real life, right? And the reason we do that is because like a lot of what we do, not just within HubSpot or the company we work for, it kind of shapes who we are and like shapes the way we approach things. So one of the questions I had for you was like, when Ashley isn't at HubSpot and isn't working, like what does Ashley do to unwind?

Um, also I'm a big music person. I love music. Um, I DJ and I collect vinyl, so a lot of things that I do to unwind definitely is surrounded by music. And again, I, I collect records everywhere I go. We just went to Dublin and I brought back a big stack of vinyls, like, just from all the different record shops that I went around. So anything involving, like, you know, I have like a sound system, so I like Put a record on and just vibe out. That's definitely how I unwind. I'm also a photographer, so like, if I need to walk down the block for something, I use that kind of like as a photo walk to just kind of, you know, shoot the things around me and see what I can create that way. So anything that I create, anything that I can listen to, that was exactly how I unwind.

Let me ask you, what is one of the— because it's not apples to apples, but like, Every once in a while I'll do— because my, my dad used to do it all the time— but, uh, there's, um, like estate sales, right? Where you'll go and you'll find like this hidden gem or something. Have you ever found, uh— because you met— you had mentioned like crate digging was, uh, for records.

Yes.

Have you ever been at a place where you have found one where you've had to actually like stop and look around and be like, is this real? Is this like— I have to buy this. This is like gold. Like, you've ever run into any of those?

I was in Dublin. I was actually very surprised by the music selection in Dublin. I don't know what I was expecting, but, um, it had a lot of hip-hop records, like a lot of like jazz and stuff. So I found this like hip-hop single and I'm just like, in Dublin? I'm like, that I could find this here? So, um, just that would be like the latest place that I would say like I found like a rare item. Um, And also, again, like you mentioned, like estate sales where you're finding this— like, I'm a big Sade fan. You can pretty much find her records anywhere now, but I found one of her records for a dollar, and I'm looking around like, a dollar? Are you seriously gonna sell this, you know, for a dollar? But, um, right. I, I am not above going anywhere to, you know, shop for records. Like, I found them in like thrift stores, um, and when I was living in New York, a lot of people would sell them on the street, so I've A lot of my collection is just from people, you know, selling it on the street. Um, so anywhere I'll buy a record, any place.

Are you the master of the, of the, uh, the mixtape as well? Do you, do you, uh, compose your own? You like song— like, I'm feeling like High Fidelity for some reason, that movie. It's hitting my head right now. I'm not sure if anyone's watched that or not, but—

I do make, I do make playlists. I'm a big playlist person. I make playlists all the time. Um, So yeah, I definitely have like a whole like log of playlists. Maybe I'll have to share it with you guys.

I think that's kind of required at this moment. I feel like we have a playlist for the description. We put a link in.

Yeah, we need a DevRel radio. Yeah, radio for sure.

I would love that. I would love to do the DevRel radio. That would be such a cool idea.

I love it, man. I love it. I mean, we could play episodes of podcasts on it and all kinds of weird stuff.

Oh yeah.

Uh, you know, let me ask you, um, there— because you mentioned you also DJ too, right? As well?

Yes, yes.

Vinyl. That's, um, that when you, when you said that, and then I saw it in the, in the questionnaire, that after we've been talking, it doesn't surprise me because like creating things for like other people to enjoy. Like, what's better than you creating playlists or you're creating, you know, mixes for like— it's public, it's huge public consumption, right? Just like an app, just like anything else. So that's like, do you get— do you, um, do you find the same— and I mean, this is kind of a loaded question because maybe you probably do, but do you find the same type of like enjoyment when you're creating like, um, well, whether you're creating like mixes or you're creating like set lists for when you're DJing as you do, like, when you're creating apps and stuff? Is it that same? Do you get that same type of feeling when it, like—

You know, I never really associated the two, but it is like the— it's coming from the same joy, you know, like just wanting somebody to, like, you know, learn something, you know. On the music side, I'm big on trying to get people to listen to music that they probably don't listen to often or discover a new artist. So yeah, I would say it kind of goes hand in hand. It's like, again, it's from the same joy. So, um, yeah. I would say it goes hand in hand.

I probably should have mentioned I ask weird questions probably before the podcast.

It's okay. It's okay.

Why not ask it like, you know, more than halfway through, right? But now that's— now having like a really solid way of like unwinding and then having, you know, one could argue like HubSpot is intense, right? It's not like a walk in the park for anybody, no matter what they do there. How do you— is there— do you have like a way of balancing? Like, they always call, you know, it's work-life balance, right? That's the word we hear all the time. Do you, uh, do you find it hard to do that? Because some people do. Or do you have like a methodology to it? Or how does that work with you?

I've learned to kind of adapt hard stops, like 5, 5:30. I try to just— that's, that's the cutoff for me. And also, I I will take some time off if I need a day to just have a day, or if I just want to do something that I don't normally have time for, I'll take a time off. And I also just sometimes just step away to recharge. So I'll take a day off just to recharge because again, if I'm not my best self, I can't perform and do my best work.

Mm-hmm.

So having those hard stops at 5:30 and taking time off is kind of how I, you know, stay afloat and then having my, you know, outside of work hobby that I can lean into. Say I had a stressful long day, you know, I'll go, you know, start messing with my vinyl or try to create a mix or something. So those, those will be the 3 main things for me.

Does it help that you're on the West Coast and most of your team, do you have a chance to kind of like slowly go down, like, you know, with the different time zones?

I feel like by the time I'm signing on, I'm playing catch-up, which is why I'm enjoying being on Central Time, because I feel like we're all working at the same pace.

Ah.

My, my days seem a little easier towards the end instead of like on the West Coast, it's a little more intense, um, because I'm, you know, just playing catch-up and everything. But, um, yeah, I, I do enjoy being more on the Central side because again, we just seem to work more collectively.

But, um, Yeah, it truly is the best time zone. I mean, I'm not biased.

I'm not gonna lie, it's, it's working well in my favor right now. I'm visiting my parents in Alabama, so they're on Central Time Zone, um, and it's been nice. It has been really nice.

I remember, I mean, just the, the, the, uh, the time difference for, you know, television. Like, things start so late on the East Coast, you know.

It's—

yeah, I guess, yes, I guess streaming is a thing now, right? People— I'm sorry, I'm very old, so I'm talking about some antiquated things.

Dennis, let me introduce you to this thing called Netflix. You're gonna love it.

Interesting.

It's, it's great. It's— yeah, you'll never turn back. Um, I was gonna ask you about the photography, um, because there's— because I did a couple class— like, throughout, I think I did a class in— I'd have to ask AJ because we did a lot of classes together that one year. But I did photography. I know I did it in community college, and I think I did it when I was at Eastern, but There were people that were in those classes where when I would talk to them, they were either— I'm trying to think of the right way to put it, but there was definitely a camp of digital photography and a camp of, no, I like to do it the old way because they— in one of the classes we actually learned to like, you know, develop the negatives and stuff in a darkroom. And do you lean one way or the other with that, or is it just—

I don't lean one way or the other. I do both. I have like film cameras and I have digital. I think what it was for me, I approached photography just knowing the basics. That's how I am as a developer. You want to start learning the basics. What I actually did was I created myself a little, I guess you could say, a manual, like a photo book of all the terms and how to capture certain pictures a different way.

Mm-hmm.

I think that helped me just go either way. Of course, I wanted to explore both mediums to just see how it worked, but they both have their pros and cons. I feel like with film photography, it's a little more candid. With digital, you can kind of really, I guess, curate the moment. So that's the biggest difference for me, but I don't lean towards more than other. I just kind of like, once I learned the basics and the principles, I just kind of applied it to whether whatever tool I wanted to use at the time.

Yeah, I, I discovered that, uh, film is expensive these days. Like, getting, getting this—

Yeah, and that's another thing. Like, it just spiked. And, you know, like, film is so expensive now to where I don't shoot film as much. So that— yeah, maybe a reason why I lean more on digital. But that is very true. Like, since the pandemic to now, film is so expensive. Like, I'm scared to, like, use the rolls I'm kind of like scared to shoot my rolls now because it's like a million dollars to replace it. And I'm right now—

So seriously, we thought we were good parents and got our daughter a, you know, a manual, like, you know, 35mm camera to take with her to Dublin.

That's cool.

And, uh, she shot 3 rolls of film, and I didn't realize I need to take a small loan out on my house to actually get those things processed.

Um, yes. Agreed. Like, it's, it's very expensive. Um, but I, I do see a lot of people kind of like doing the development as well, you know, uh, with the negatives themselves now. I don't know if that's cheaper, but I have seen like a more uprising in that because again, film is a million dollars right now. Yeah, yeah.

You also mentioned too that you, uh, video editing. Um, I just like just yesterday installed Adobe Premiere and just started messing with it. So at Dennis's request, Because I, yeah, like some of the stuff we have to do for this show and then like for like shorts and stuff, I just, I hated having Dennis do all of it because that's not fair to dump it on him. But like, are you, is that something that you've always been like into and always been doing? Or is that something you picked up quite recently? Or?

I think it's something that I've always been doing, but kind of got more serious recently with it. I would say I'm pretty good, but I look at all of some of these videos out here and I'm like, oh, I can do much better. I wonder what software they're using. But I do like Premiere. I use Premiere a lot. When I want something like quick and easy, I use— what is it? CapCut. I think that's another one that's pretty good. But I do like Premiere. I lean heavily on Premiere. And I just go in and start tinkering with stuff, you know, just trying to see what button does what. But it's something I definitely picked up here recently. I don't know, I've just been drawn a little more to video. I think that's just the age we're in right now. It's video everywhere versus just still photos. So I'm really looking forward to where I can take that, how I can get better, what other tools are out there. Again, right now I just kind of lean on Premiere, so I'll be curious to see what other tools are good for video editing.

Excellent.

No, yeah, because I— it was, yeah, just looking at it for the very first time, opening it up and trying to do stuff, I, I probably spent hours just watching videos of everyone else doing it very well and then tried to like— Yeah, so it was, it was a little rough. Yeah, it was a little rough. Is there one that you like more? Like between the photography and the video editing, is there one that you like better, uh, than the other? Or are they— is it for you— because I know there's some people where Like in that space, they see it all as kind of not the same. I don't want to say it's the same thing, but there's so much kind of, and again, I know it depends on what you do because like there's, you know, photo editing and video editing. And then depending on the digital, you're using some of it within each other. But, um, there are some people that I talked to that are like, they shoot video and they're video editors and they're not much on the photography. Do you have one that you favor over the other or is it kind of just a—

It's not. I don't have one that I favor over the other, but I've been a photographer longer than I've been doing video. So it's just, I'm more of a photographer than a video person at this point. But I would love to kind of get on that equal level with video. I'm just starting to kind of just shift how I storytell in a different medium because I'm in a new place. In New York, I had to walk everywhere. In LA, I don't get that luxury. Um, so because I'm in the car and I need like more like quick moments, or like, um, I'm more at events than just walking around and bumping into something to do, I've, I've been leaning more onto video. So I'm just hoping I could get to that point where it's just equal, like I can just do them interchangeably.

Uh, good luck. I mean, like with video, the— yeah, I know there's the video aspect, but then you also have the audio, right? Which is a whole New can of worms.

Yes, I discovered that too. I had to like buy a mic because I'm like, oh, I did not account for the fact that my video needs to be top tier. So it's, it's funny you bring that up because that was like my first like learning curve, like, oh, video is something totally different.

Yeah, but you know, I mean, as a DJ on the soundtrack side of things, I imagine you could probably get some good music too, like You know how you time the music to emotional moments or, you know, uh, crescendos, whatnot?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm good with that. But I definitely had to like, oh, I need to record this moment differently. Like, that was definitely like my first bump in the road. Like, okay, audio is something separate. So it's cool.

It also becomes an expensive— it like, as soon as we started doing video stuff here, it became like Because I was like, oh, well, we've— I've got a laptop, I'll just do it all on. And it was like, yeah, no, are you sure about that? Because then I would listen to it and I'd be like, why does it sound like I'm in a, like, the Batcave, like, trying to talk in the dark?

Yes, yes, I remember that.

The second you master that, you know, video's dead and it's on to something else that you gotta master.

Right, right. Yeah, because it was like, first it was the microphone, then it was like Dennis is like, your video is a little blurry. And I'm like, well, yeah, it's just the laptop. It should be fine. It's like, yeah, no, it's not that. And then the lighting was all weird. And then, yeah, then the whole adventure with green screen.

Yes. Lighting is another, another thing you have to perfect when you're doing video. It's a process. Like, you're really curating a moment. And I thought it was a little easier, you know, as photography where you can just capture the moment. No, you kind of have to build it a little more of a video. So I'm going through all those curves right now, everything that you guys have mentioned.

I never thought lighting was that— Dennis mentioned it, he's like, and don't forget to have good lighting. And I was just like, yeah, dude, I have a light in here. I know I always keep the lights off, but I do actually have a light in here, so I'm like, it should be fine. First time I tried to do it with just that light, I was like, what is going on with this? Like, the screen was all blurry. I'm like, what is this? And he's like—

And it makes you frustrated because it's like, ah, sometimes you have to film things at a certain time of day because it may get a little too dark in your room and the light doesn't supply. So yeah, growing pains.

That's, that's the excuse we can use for Developers After Dark. We want to do it at night, but because it's too dark, we need better light. Yeah, we could use that as a reason.

Yeah, definitely. Yeah.

I wanted to ask you with the photography stuff, is there, is there a picture that you've taken that's kind of like— because I know, um, and again, I'm very limited, uh, with my exposure, no pun intended, photography in general, but like, yeah, every Every photographer I've talked to has always had that like one or two pictures that they've taken that's been like, for them, it's like, that's the one they want to show. Like whenever they talk about photography, everyone, let me show you this thing I took. Like, do you have a picture that like one or two pictures where it's like, this is the thing I always want to show everybody to show them like what I can do?

Do I have a specific picture? I have a few. I have a few. It's always the pictures that I didn't really want to take, you know, like, I— it was just a moment I was gonna just pass, and then something was like, just take the picture. Those are usually like the best ones. So, um, I have this picture that I took in New York just walking down the road of this guy in these certain sneakers, and it was just how he was sitting, just for example. And I didn't want to take it because I'm not really big on like just shooting people, um, but those types of pictures, the ones that you, you know, something in the back of your head is like, just do it, just do it, those are usually the best ones. Um, I do have a website. Maybe I can plug it in after this so you guys can check out some of my photography. Um, yeah, um, I, I've been shooting a lot of street photography, which is like, you know, just wandering on the street, just capturing what's around me. Um, I'm trying to transition more into like, um, shooting people, which kind of goes hand in hand with like public talking and putting myself more out there. So, um, yeah, I definitely have to share my website.

Yeah, please do. And we Dennis, I know, just make the look now. We'll put it in the show notes as well.

When—

just that.

So, so you should— that'll be done in maybe, uh, 3 to 7 years, I think, is when— what is that, the current, uh, yeah, the wait?

Please wait on hold. The wait time is 3 to 7 years. Yeah, uh, I'm a little slow, uh, on the draw when it comes to getting the show notes down for episodes. Um, it's okay because I have to go back and watch the episode again and take notes because I don't do it well. Right, because I don't want to be like in a podcast and like literally looking over here the entire time and typing. It just looks weird, uh, because that's what I would have to do. And it's just like, I'd rather just sit and talk and then go back.

All the sponsorships, Nick, that we'd be able to have, you know, hire an intern here.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I mean, don't get me wrong, I'm a narcissist. I'll watch myself on video, but like, I don't— not for that long. That's just too much. You know, actually, I saw this quote where it was like, I love me. I took a poll. Four out of five narcissists love me more than they love themselves. So that's how like yeah. So but that's um the show notes are hard to take.

They are.

They're just um and plus you don't want to miss anything and you don't want to make them too silly. But like but no, definitely we will put everything.

Great things take time.

That's we that should just be at the top of the website. It's just like great things take time. Here's what I have to say.

If only we had someone with an operations background who could help us streamline this process more. I don't know who that might be, but—

Interesting. Let me go through our questionnaires. There might be— I can search for it. Excellent. Excellent. Well, we're almost coming up on our hard stop for the hour, but I wanted to say, Ashley, thank you so much for joining us because Again, there's— and we were talking about this before the show as well— is like, there is— there's never going to be a journey or a story that we talk about that'll be identical to anyone else, right? Even guest to guest, guest to listener. But what happens is there are these like moments, you know, as people either watch or listen where they can say, I can completely relate to that. I've had— especially like, hell, especially with the imposter syndrome. 99% of the world, uh, can relate to that. And the 1% that can't, I'd like to meet them because I'd like to know how they got over that.

They don't— you don't want to meet them.

You don't want to meet them.

But no, but that's, uh, and again, like, and I, and I also told you before the episode too, like, there hasn't been an episode yet, and including this one, where we haven't done it and it's been like, this has been awesome. This is exactly what we thought it was going to be even before we started. And this episode's no different. And but I wanted to thank you. So give a shout out to anything that you want, like the website. And like I said, I will, when the time rolls around to do show notes.

Yeah, no worries. I'll also have to make sure I get you those materials. But I thank you all for having me and allowing me to tell my story. I had a great time. And hopefully, you know, we'll do this again sometime.

Yes, please.

What's the website that they can see the photos on?

Um, it's just abwnow.com.

Oh, nice. Easy. Done.

Yeah, easy peasy.

Awesome. So yeah, no, thank you again so much. Uh, thanks again also to Dennis for, uh, being the anchor that keeps us, you know, from sailing off into the distance. And then thank you, AJ, again for not showing up to another episode. Um, that's, that's always nice. But Seeing that we were on kind of a little bit of a music kick here too, I will leave you with what happened when I asked my AI agent what their favorite type of music was. They responded with algorithm and blues.

Boom, boom.

I'll be here all night with your waitress. Thank you very much.

Wow. Wow. All right, I'm ending this stream right now. That's enough. That's enough.

Please do.