Ep. 24 - Community Architecture with Jennifer Nixon | Devs:After Dark

I'm 2 foot tall, but with like a 4-foot mohawk. It's very weird to print that. See, it gets me pumped. And not only that, but it did take me quite a while to go through that website to find like the right music. To get to the bottom of it.

Oh, I put it back in. I mean, like, it just has to. No, I know, I know, I know.

I was just teasing. But hello and welcome to another episode of Developers After Dark. This is a very, very long-awaited episode for myself personally because I've been wanting to talk to our guest and, uh, my poor choices, uh, led me to illness and we weren't able to do it the first time, but we have made amends and we are fixing the problem. I have fixed the problem and we are here. But before we get into all of that, I just want to remind you that the only website you're ever going to need is going to be developers— or devsafterdarkpod.com. Almost messed that up. That is devsafterdarkpod.com. That's where you're going to be able to see, um, uh, pretty much a catalog of all of our stuff, a little bit of an introduction into what the show is about and why we did it, why we set it all up. So if you go there, you'll be able to see pretty much everything. But what we really want you to do is— you're probably most likely watching this on YouTube. So what I want you to do is, for everybody, I want you to like this video and more importantly, single-click like so you can double-click into our hearts. And then also I want you to follow and I want you to subscribe to the HubSpot Developers YouTube channel @HubSpotDevelopers. You're not just going to find episodes of us. which, I mean, is great enough as it is, but you're also going to find a lot of other relevant and very, very important information. You're going to— there's an interview that just dropped, I want to say it's about 2 days ago, where Bree Hall, another guest on our show and a really great podcaster in her own right, interviewed Hannah about Postman. And I think they talked about Postcon a little bit too in there as well. Really good episode. You should go check that out. And on top of that too, there's also like a lot of informational stuff. There's, uh, you'll see just a ton, a ton of information on there. You don't want to miss it. Like those videos as well. So check that out. That's @HubSpotDevelopers. That's our YouTube channel. Subscribe because you'll, it's, you'll get alerted for just about, and it covers everything too. I think that's the best part about it.

Oh yeah. Oh yeah. I believe science actually has proven that you are smarter when you subscribe to that channel. I didn't believe this. I had to check it. We had several studies done and each of them said you're much smarter. If you subscribe.

Also, liking our videos brings you good fortune.

Yes, yes.

I just want to throw that out. I mean, I'm sure there'll be a legal note later somewhere in my Slack, but, uh, uh, I've heard that. I've heard that. So, well, yeah, but, um, if you wanted to be in the know as far as like changes in the developer world, you're also going to want to check out our changelog, and that's at developers.hubspot.com/changelog. One more time for Dennis: developers.hubspot.com/changelog. But you're going to want to go there because you're going to get a lot of information on a lot of the developer information that drops, a lot of the changes that are happening. So you'll want to go there. You can subscribe to that as well, so you'll get alerts and you'll get notified. So make sure you check that out as well. There's a lot of stuff in the HubSpot community that you can be a part of and that you can sign up for, and where the information kind of just flows. They don't— there's always that saying, right, that's like even working at HubSpot at the very beginning is like drinking from a fire hose. But getting like plugged into HubSpot is also like drinking from a fire hose as well, because we have so much information to give you and it just doesn't stop because there's always innovation, there's always new things, new tools, and there's always something happening. So get yourself plugged in in every humanly way possible and you're never going to feel left out. So do that as well. And last but not least is the Academy, academy.hubspot.com. And we might be talking about this throughout the show as well. Uh, but that is academy.hubspot.com if you want to learn anything. I had a promo once that I just made up on the fly about— remember that, Dennis, where I was like, you're bad at coding, but do you want to fix it? They're making fun of you at the water cooler. Do you want to know why? Uh, I want to clip that one of these days and just send it to the people in the Academy and just like see what they say, just to see. But, um, you know, and all joking aside though, you— it's definitely a place you want to go to because there are so many courses on there. And me and AJ were talking that one time with one of our friends, and I know I've brought this up in a couple of episodes, but he was like, yeah, you know, I'll do that, but I don't, you know, I'm not paying for that right now. And I'm like, paying for what? I'm like, you don't, you're not paying for it. And he had no idea that it was actually something that HubSpot provided, right? So it's one of those things where even now, even with all of the great information that's been put out even thus far, some people still don't know that it's just a resource you can go to. And not only that, like some of the certifications you can get, They can go onto your— when you're in the marketplace, right? When you have some of these certifications, they'll actually show up under your provider name and the accreditations that you get. So like, you know, CMS for developers and things like that, those show up as a marketplace provider in your listings. So there's an added bonus there too as well that I don't think a lot of people even know about. But go to academy.hubspot.com, check out everything. I've done a bunch of them. We had a week not too long ago where, you know, we were, we were donating, like when people got the certifications. I mean, anything from SEO to CMS development, all that, you know, inbound marketing. There's just everything there. There you go. There you go. And without further ado, uh, I will let our guest Jennifer introduce herself and tell everyone who she is and what she does.

Hey everyone. Thanks, Nick. Um, I'm Jennifer Nixon and I am the developer community manager here at HubSpot. part of the developer relations team with these wonderful people here, and a lot of the folks that have been on the show previously. I work most closely with SJ Morris with the developer or the ecosystem mentorship program. And I'm a former community champion.

Yay!

Much like Dennis and some of the others. So I kind of grew up in this ecosystem. I've been— I've worked for a theme provider. I've optimized listings with my certifications, actually. And yeah, I've worked with— as a consultant for agency. I've been, you know, a customer, and now I'm a HubSpotter.

Now, speaking of that, you know, it's pulling on that thread just a little bit. A lot of people who have been in the community have become HubSpotters, like AJ. Like, it's just— it's one of those things that it really does draw in some of the best people. It really does.

Or the worst. One of the two.

Well, yeah, I didn't come from that, so the worst didn't—

I—

yeah, that wasn't me. I came from something different, so I wasn't— the worst came from something different. But you guys are the best, and you definitely came from the community.

Yeah. Is it John, right? John, AJ, Dennis, Bing. Are there others? Anybody else?

Uh, there have been. There have been a, a slew of people come in and out, um, as champions. I don't know, we should have like some sort of Uh, site, like page that has like champions to HubSpotters.

Meetup. Yeah, we should do our own meetups. No, I don't know. Um, anyway, yeah, I think I do know a few others. Um, they're just not on DevRel, which I guess is kind of like my, my world now here. So.

Now, since you've gotten here, it has been, and correct me if I'm wrong, but it might be fair to say that it's been quite the whirlwind. You have been involved in Just a plethora of things going on. Can you talk a little bit about some of the things that have happened, you know, just in your— and, you know, as you've gotten here, that's some of the things that you've been able to experience?

Yeah, I mean, I traveled twice in my first month, so I had some onsite in Cambridge and then we had the meetup in LA. So as part of PostCon, we had a tech meetup to kind of connect the LA tech scene with HubSpot and people attending PostCon. And that was just, I don't know, Dennis, I thought that was a really fun, engaging way. It was cool because we had roundtables and actually like had laptops out and we were answering questions and engaging with people who were struggling with solving problems in HubSpot or how do I do something better. So it was really interesting and there were a lot of really cool use cases and just different ways people are using HubSpot. And then Postcon, of course, Hannah, the amazing Hannah. We were like, I don't know, I was just kind of blown away seeing what she's been able to achieve and like sharing her story about Postcon and DevRel. And, you know, as somebody who struggled to learn API, I really, really wish I had known Hannah earlier or about Postman. So, if you are trying to learn API, I'm gonna do a plug now, 'cause you really need to get on Postman. It's, like, made it so much easier. But that's kind of, like, the early goings. I've fully taken over the mentoring program that I mentioned. So, kind of running that day-to-day, getting our mentors more involved. Connecting with mentees. We've got 90-ish people in the program. Really incredible group of people. So smart. So bright.

Can you kind of go through what is this program?

Yeah. I wasn't sure if we'd get to that because, you know, these last 3 months have been long. But it is the Ecosystem Mentorship Program. Last year, it was the Developer Mentorship Program, and I was one of the mentors in the program. This time around, we have, I think, about 65 pairs. So, there's 65 mentors, but some of them have more than one mentee. And it's across the ecosystem because we're kind of bringing in people who might be more technical or building with AI, or, you know, they may not be your traditional developer when you think of somebody who's a programmer or a coder. They could be somebody creating custom coded workflow actions, or maybe they just manage an integration, but they're not doing like the day-to-day API, you know, technical coding piece. So it's kind of a really broad mix of folks, and we brought them together. They're paired up. They kind of coordinate with each other to meet and discuss things. We have a Slack space where we connect as a group and share you know, how things are going. And yeah, just, it's, I don't know, I think it's one of the most incredible programs available because a lot of people that are developers or people in this ecosystem are working in smaller teams and smaller companies. Whereas like HubSpot, we've got like 9,000 employees and it's a very, you're constantly learning from other people. But if you're working with 2 to 3 people all the time, you're maybe not going to get that same amount of exposure, or maybe you don't get the same amount of support.

Yeah.

So, you can learn from somebody else's experience, whether that's, you know, where to look for, you know, how to understand the documentation or where to find solutions to your problems. But it's also career planning, goal setting, getting alignment, like, how do I want to grow? We have a lot of people who work for customers that want to go out on their own. and then be, you know, freelancers or, or eventually work at HubSpot or agency. You know, there's so many different goals and objectives and we kind of match you up so that you can grow and develop further.

Love it. I really love it.

Yeah, I love that. I think that's brilliant too, because like the, the kind of the widening of the pool, like the, the, the definition of a developer is changing, you know, uh, you know, even as we speak. So I, I think, I think that's really fantastic. And then it's grown too since last year to this year, like that the demand, right? Correct me if I'm wrong, but like even the demand for not just the people who want to join the program, but also be mentors as well.

Yeah.

Has grown significantly. I mean, people are talking about this like constantly now. So I think that's also great too because the help, right? I think is the biggest thing because like, I remember there were times where I think, I can't remember, Dennis, we were talking what episode we were talking about this in, but We kind of wished, I think it was probably with SJ, but we kind of wished that something like this existed, you know, when we were first starting out as well, because the path felt so, um, actually it didn't even feel like anything because we didn't know where the path was, I guess, a better way to explain it. And, um, having a program like this would have been instrumental and like, it could have saved like a good amount of time of like, I call it soul searching or however you want to describe it, but like trying to find like how to get on that, on that path even, or even find where it is. This would have been something that would have been huge.

Oh my God. Yes. I totally agree.

Yeah. Just having a sounding board, somebody that like, hey, this is what's going on and having somebody to share those experiences. And, you know, the biggest thing about being a mentor is listening. And a lot of people think that you have to know something really, really specific. So yes, the program has grown. I think we have close to or maybe over 200 mentees apply, but with matching and getting every paired up, we kind of settled around trying to have about 100 participants total in the program. And life happens, so a few people have dropped or things have come up, but I feel like it's in a really good place. And one of the things that I'm really looking forward to is growing it and scaling it. And helping mentees, because we have so many amazing mentees in the program, helping them to become mentors. So the last bit of my time here to kind of circle back to that, I've been building a course for HubSpot Academy. So full circle moment for me too. My, like, first week using HubSpot, I got my first certification. So 9 years in the making. I, coming up at Inbound, I'll be launching the Effective Mentoring in the HubSpot Ecosystem course.

Love it. Amazing.

That's awesome. I've been busy building out that content, recording it, creating resources, and just showing you like what it takes, you know, and it doesn't take a lot. It's, I think it's going to be like 45 minutes. Total. Like, it's not overwhelming. It's gonna help you just like that imposter syndrome we all talk about. Like, am I really good enough? Can I really do it? Do I really know what I'm doing?

Mm-hmm.

And I think what a lot of people don't understand is being a mentor also helps you grow and it helps you recognize like, oh, like I can be a leader. I can guide somebody. I, you know, I can grow myself while I'm helping somebody else and Just kind of connecting those dots of it doesn't matter if you're, you know, the best developer in the whole wide world. It doesn't matter if you're, you know, a CTO, like that's not what it takes to be a mentor. It just takes somebody who has walked a path, any path. And none of our paths are the same.

But what I'm hearing is that you have to listen and not talk a lot. So if that's the case, I guess I'm out. I guess it's Good thing I didn't sign up.

Yeah, I have 3 official mentees and 2 or 3 others, and I tell them all the time, I was like, I'm not a really good example of a good mentor. I'm trying, I'm learning from my own course because it's tough when you have so much to share. I think I'm maybe a little long-winded in my answers, but they still learn and appreciate it.

Sure. As you said, I really think being a mentor is like a learning experience in and of itself. I really think that's a huge, yes, you are going to be distilling information to other people, but you yourself will be growing. This is like one of those level up opportunities that you can take. I think it's crucial for development.

Huge opportunity. And I think, not just for this program, the reason that I wanted the HubSpot Academy course is we have a lot of partners, we have app builders, we have people in this ecosystem that have the opportunity to spin up their own mentoring programs. I mean, think of some of our elite partners, think of even, you know, Diamond, Platinum. They have hundreds of employees. And how can we effectively mentor within ourselves and within this ecosystem? I think there's just a much bigger opportunity that's being left on the table and that professional development that comes from having somebody internally that maybe has your back, that's there for you, and it's kind of outside of your normal manager, your normal day-to-day. I think there's just a lot of opportunity for growth for so many.

Oh, for sure.

And the trick is the technical, and there's a whole lesson on that, you know, how to mentor in a technical setting. Because I think that's the nuance with being in SaaS and technology and HubSpot is your, your mentees are going to have questions that maybe are outside of your realm of experience. How do you handle that? How do you guide them? And you can do it.

Yeah. I mean, I think about the, you said that, you know, the companies that have hundreds of people working for them. I'm thinking of those that don't have the money for many people and they have to hire an intern, for example.

Yeah.

Who really needs that leadership, you know, the, the, the mentor. And I, I feel like that's a huge win for them.

Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. And I guess what I mean, to, to clarify the distinction is there are companies within this ecosystem large enough to create their own mentoring programs, not just this one. And so that was kind of the potential I saw with having it be a more broadly shared course. Than just specific to this program.

Love it. That's awesome. Yeah. You're like, you're like, you're pretty much planting the seeds for that type of thing in other places as well, where it's like, yeah, the, the, the exponential growth there is undeniable. So I think that, I really do think that's fantastic. I kind of wanted to ask you too, like along the lines of all of this. So, you know, you've— the travel, like from when you first started at HubSpot. So the whirlwind of everything you're doing on an academy course. But this isn't the first time though you've done any type of like in the limelight type of work, right? Last year at Inbound, you were, can you tell us about that? I mean, you were on a panel. There was a lot going on there too as well, even before you started all of this.

Yeah, so last year a few of the champions got together and they wanted to do a panel session to talk about the community getting more engaged, how you can make the most of your experience in this ecosystem. And they reached out to me and said, hey, you're kind of in the top, you know, we'd love to have you. And so Dan Moyle, Josh Curcio, Phil Ballender, I mean, he's like the original, like before Karsten, there was Phil. So if you guys don't know Phil, I mean, he's a phenomenal person and web dev, like just amazing human. And they got together and luckily let me join them. And Kyle Jepson moderated and was phenomenal. We had a great time. chatted about, you know, getting involved in the community, um, and just how you can, you know, help other people and it helps you. And I think that's the thing that there are so many people that say, well, I don't really have time. Like, I, you know, I was talking to a developer yesterday about the developer Slack versus the community forums, and they're like, yeah, but the Slack, I can just like DM or I can just quickly check. And, you know, And I was like, in that same 5 minutes, you can post a question or answer a question in the community. It's just the time between, you know, when you post it and when you get an answer or when you, you know, respond, but your time commitment hasn't changed. And I think that's one of the biggest misconceptions people have about helping others is that it's taking away time from them when really you're gaining so, so much from it.

I couldn't agree more. Yeah, no, absolutely. With these things, I was curious, I wanted to ask you, was this something— because there's— I don't know, I don't want to boil it down to there's like 2 types of people, but in my mind, it's close. But there's people that are kind of comfortable doing these types of— with regards to the speaking, like the panel sessions, or I remember you mentioned too, there was a lightning talk that you did as well.

Yeah.

With those things, was that something that you kind of always were comfortable doing, or was that something you kind of pushed yourself to do? Because like, the reason I ask that is because me personally, like, I don't, I never liked doing, like, I was never, I'm not a people, I don't, I don't, I don't identify myself as a people person, right? Which is weird. But, um, but like doing, you know, when AJ talked to me and Dennis into the inbound talk and, and some of the other stuff, it was like, way outside of my comfort zone and kind of had to force myself to do it. Did you have a similar experience or was there, because there are some people that where they're just like, nah, I love this. I could do this all day. I'm not nervous about this. No imposter syndrome. Everything's great. I worry about those people because I get nervous, but like, you know.

Yeah, definitely depends. So the main, like the stage and doing the panel session, I wasn't nervous at all. I have no idea, like. I thought I would be really worried about it, or, but I think it comes down to like, if you are talking about something that really matters to you and you have the opportunity to like share that story or that message or whatever it is, like that kind of takes a lot of that pressure off. Um, so that one came really naturally. The lightning talks though, with Anton and Justin and Carter, I was like, I was just up there shaking and like my hands were were kind of shaking. And I felt like I did more prep for that. Like, I put my slides together. I did more prep for that than I did the panel session. And I can't even bring myself to watch it. I think it's on the YouTube, but I can't watch it.

Plus, too, I'm sure it depends on, too, like, the environment and the other people that you're talking with, too, because I know Dennis was super nervous because he was in the presence of me speaking. Sure. Right.

Like, you guys were talking to people from the community that really value like your thoughts, your opinions, you're sharing something with them.

A lot of them— They appreciated Dennis's thoughts.

I'm—

I don't know about mine. The jury's probably still out on that.

They did.

No, they didn't. They didn't.

I'm sure they did. I missed it. I don't know where I was. I, I missed a lot last year.

It was memorable. It was memorable. Some people might say it's gonna go down in, in, you know, the, the books as possibly the best inbound presentation. But, you know, whatever.

Could be one of the highest rated. I, I mean, in my opinion, it probably was. Yeah, I, you know, but it was, it was pretty decent. It was Pretty decent, and and that's why I wanted to ask you that question because it always I always feel like there are some people who like it comes naturally to and and don't be wrong like the people we talk to like they're great like everybody does even if they don't think they can like do it or they don't think that like there's been people that have even come on here where they're like I don't think I could do like a podcast thing and like I think it was like Johnna and a couple other people where they were like they were fantastic like the stories they told the way they tell I don't even think they realized how good they were at just. just even speaking about something when it was just their own personal experience, right? But, um, yeah, I always admired those people who it like seemed it came real naturally to, right?

Yeah.

And, and I'll be honest, just kind of like we, you know, not that I was creeping, but was watching some of the stuff, like especially like some of the older stuff. And there, there are just some people that you like watch that are just naturally, you know, whether it's the Kyle, uh, you know, the Jepsens or like even Brie, even, even our, and, you know, and, uh, DevRel, like just, it's just, it seems very fluid and I'm, I'm envious of that. I really am. Because it's like, it's those type of things and it makes it easier to like digest what people are talking about as well. And Brooke and the academy courses, and I'm sure the academy course that you're doing is going to be, it's, it's gonna be the same thing because even just talking with you now, even though we haven't had like much time to talk throughout, you know, since you started, it just, you can get that feeling from people that they're just that type of person where it's like. It almost seems like it comes natural, you know? So that's fantastic.

But I, you know, I think for me it takes a lot of work and I think it's great when it does come naturally to people. Um, Jay Schwedelson does the Inbound Mainstage every year. I don't care if you're not into marketing or emails, like go watch him if you, if you wanna get better at presenting or talking. Um, because he's just a real human being. And he kind of, like, owns that presence. And I think that's who you, like, remind me of inside and why I love watching the Developers After Dark podcast, because you are, you're Nick, like, unfiltered. And this is who I am, and I'm not trying to be somebody else. And I think that's what makes somebody a good speaker. When somebody is trying so hard and when they're putting on or they aren't comfortable with it and you can feel that, that's when It comes across, you know, like, oh, I don't know what I'm doing. And, you know, but the difference is like, you can put in work. For me, it's, you know, practicing, um, taking like 50 outtakes, you know, like the Academy course wasn't easy. I had to try, like, I, I think I spent 3 hours on the intro. Couldn't get it. I was like, I'm just gonna breeze through. And I just like recorded one after the other of the next couple lessons. And then I went back to the intro and I got it on the next one. It's just like a mindset, right? And like when you put that pressure on yourself that like this one's got to be perfect, it's first, or I have to, you know, appear a certain way, or I need to have the right smile or the right tone or pacing. When you aren't thinking about just delivering the message and what I'm trying to say, then it gets so much harder.

Oh, for sure.

Yeah.

It reminds me of like, you know, that, wait, wait, you know, the social media where you watch people's lives, they're so perfect and beautiful. And when you're trying to record something, it's like, my God, I've done this like 450 different times. I can't get it right. How did that person record that Loom or whatever it might be so well? And then you ask them, it's like, oh my God, I, I spent 5 hours doing that. It wasn't a one-shot deal. Yeah. Get that outta your head already. Like you, there's gonna be many takes. Yeah.

Yeah, it's not. But also, like, you know, even when we attempted the podcast the last time, you know, being live, that, that had a different type of feeling and pressure.

And for sure, for sure.

For anybody who caught that, I will go on record and say, like, it is really difficult to know, like, hey, have I said what I needed to say? Did I answer the question? You know, am I like— there's all these things going in your mind. And I think, Nick, you and I both have those minds that get like 10 steps ahead. And I love when you're like, oh, I want to pull a thread on this because you see something in what the people are saying. So fan moment here. Sorry.

I got to change the hue on my light because it looks like I'm blushing a little bit. So just give me a sec. But no, I appreciate that. And I think the thing that kind of gets, especially with the live part, it does get I like doing that, but I think especially in a setting too where it's not more professional as if it wasn't professional before, but it's hard because I even noticed with some people too, just with talking with them when I asked them if they wanted to come on and just tell their story, I think the fact that it was live scared people. It did. And I know it did. Some people specifically said that that was the case. I do understand that. And that was kind of like why we kind of started to go back to the, well, why don't we just record it first? And then whoever the guest is can feel a little bit more comfortable, like they're not on the spot or they're not. Because like, for me, just talking, regardless if I'm saying anything relevant, like it just comes sort of natural to me, even though I'm not a people person. But like, you know, at the end of the day, we, we feel, we felt like that's not everybody's game, especially when we want them to be able to tell their story or like, even now, like specifically talk about a particular thing. Like, you know, for your example, and even with SJ, it was like, we really wanted to, if we didn't say the word community or at least mention something about the community in the episode and it was just me, blah, blah, blah, like it would've been a complete failure, right? So there was a, there were these things that we wanted to make sure that we kind of hit. And like, it's hard to do that live, especially when you're nervous and you're trying to make sure you get everything out. And then you ramble on like I did, like at the early episodes where it was like I was doing the, like, the made-up, like, on the fly. And then plus too, I was like, as I get like not nervous, but as I talk more, I start to say more things that I probably shouldn't and just start like— so when I was like making up all this stuff, like commercials on the fly and stuff, I was like, somebody's gonna see this and be like, what? Stop him now. Like, cut it now. So like, yeah, it's, it's one of those things where, um, The live made it very, very, uh, the waters were choppy. Let's put it that way. It was like, I was always worried about like somebody coming down, like, uh, anybody, like, you know, our bosses or our bosses' bosses and being like, what are you letting these people do? Like, it's like, so yeah, it, there's a certain benefits alive, but then at the same time too, there's also some pretty good benefits to recording it and then making sure. And plus Dennis gets to like make everything pretty and. Supposedly take out my, uh, uh, when I say stuff wrong, because I, I did, uh, uh, what was that, uh, ChatGPT I kept calling it. And when I was talking to Daniel, Daniel about the connector, and I was like, after I watched it, I was like, this did not just happen. I literally did. I called it GTP the entire time, and it was just— yeah.

Unfortunately, Nick, you've, uh, run out of credits, um, so I will be unable to make any more edits for you.

All the credits are on my mistakes.

That's basically all it is the entire time.

But, um, let me ask you this though, because we, we are talking about community and then more importantly, like the mentorship stuff as well. Is there advice that you've been given from a mentor? Um, it, it could be in the industry or just about life that like has really stuck with you?

Yes. Um, so I've, I've, I'm very lucky to have had mentors. I had a really, an informal professor mentor mentor relationship in college where he really took me under his wing. And I've had a mentor kind of in each of the key roles early in my career. And I think that's why I feel so strongly about mentorship. I also never felt like there was anybody that looked like me or was like me that was available to be a mentor. And I think that that's a huge part of it is like, No. Early on. So the mentor, right? I was in this really difficult situation and I, you know, black and white, you know, right and wrong. This is the right thing to do. That's wrong. You know, what do I do? And it came down to like, well, you've worked hard, right? You've built your career, your, you know, Your reputation. You are a good student. You, you're just getting started. Like, what do you want to be known for? And it wasn't a— it taught me to see the gray in life, that not everything is like always like— there's not always one right way, or there, you know, there can be different ways to handle a situation. And so how do you want— like, it made me step back and say like, Okay, based on how I act, what are people going to take away about me? And how is that going to change how people see me and how my story moves forward from here? And I think that, like, I am not one that's always had a grand plan. Like, my career has transitioned a lot. I've been through a lot of change. But one of the things that just stuck with me was, how is this going to change how people see me and how Is that going to impact how I see myself? And I think that's something we often overlook is like, how is it going to make you feel? And what's the thing that you need to get past this or move through this challenge or difficulty that you've encountered? Um, but I know, I know you have something to say on that, but before, because I would not be a good community manager if I didn't say this, and we're talking about mentoring, we're talking about community, we're talking about the podcast. Anybody who is in the developer community that is watching this, you can be here too. And I think that's the other piece. I had somebody say, why not you? And instead of like, why me? Like, why not me? And that was my next best, like, mentor thing was like, well, why not? Not, not why should, you know, but why is it not Jennifer? So for anybody out there who's like, oh, I don't know, I don't think I could do that, it's not live anymore. So you can, and you can be here, and you can tell your story, and you can help others learn and grow too. So those are my 2.

Dennis, can you clip that please? Just so we can get— that's the commercial. Yeah, no, but I really, I love the what do you want to be known for? Because there's I just, I, there's that, that's honestly, that's one of my favorite questions to ask people because there's such a, there's, and they're all fantastic, but there's such a variance, right? And I don't think we'll ever get anybody that gives the same answer twice, but I like that one in particular because, I mean, there's plenty of opportunities in the world or in life where you could just kind of skate by, where you can just kind of like, I could take the easy way to do this, or I can do, but like, Stopping and asking yourself that question every once in a while, you know, in certain situations really can help shape the person you wanna be. And I think that's, uh, for me, like, I don't think I do that enough. That's why I really liked, uh, that answer that you gave because it was like, it was one of those ones where I'm like, I should start asking myself that more, right? It was kind of like, uh, when we talked with Caitlin, um, it wasn't really a mentorship thing, but it was more like a, a thing that she said where it was like, You know, when she talked with people on Slack where she would ask how they're doing and, and like, because you can fall into that trap of being impersonal, being like, I got a question for you. What's this, this, and this? Instead of saying, hey, how's it going? You know, how was your week or whatever? You know what I mean? Like those type of things. This is one of those things where I feel like people need to ask themselves this question more often, right? As they're going through life, as they're going through things and as they're making like important decisions. So, I really, I just wanted to say, I really, I really did love that answer because it really does. Any answer like that that resonates and then makes you stop and think like, yeah, should I, I should be taking that advice. It's like, it's good. It's just really good.

So I'm glad.

Well, thank you.

I, I will, you know, I can't take credit for it, but I learned a lot from it. I think the other thing for me is like, I'm a very passionate person. I was really passionate about architecture and that's you know, why I studied it. I'm really passionate about sustainability and community and helping people. So my why is helping people. That's the thing that drives me. And, um, but I, I, and that's what I want to be known for is being helpful. And that's my number one, that North Star thing that I, I look to. But I think a lot of people, um, I was part of a session yesterday, um, as part of HubSpot's like Bring Your Family to Work Week. We had mentoring sessions for, um, underrepresented college students. And, you know, a lot of them were like, well, I'm studying computer science, but I don't know if I really like it. Or I have a degree in psychology, but I don't know if that's for me. Like, how do I get into tech? And I think the biggest thing is when you're a kid, people out point blank ask you, what do you want to be when you grow up? And I remember in kindergarten, my daughter's answer was artist, but the next kid, his was pirate. And I was just like, yes, let's be pirates. Like, right, let's stop trying to. figure that out. And what she's wanted to be has changed so much, but I've never been able to answer that question. I will just make up the easy thing. And so instead of asking, what do I want to be? Or what is my career? Just what do I want to be known for? How am I going to leave my little impact? Even if it's not impacting the whole— maybe it's just within this little ecosystem, but that's enough.

Okay. Absolutely. Can I, can I, uh, I'm gonna talk more about the why not me part of it? 'Cause I, I feel like when you are, um, an advocate as you are, you know, you want to help as many people as you possibly can. You so often put everyone above you and thus don't really do that self-advocacy.

Yeah.

And you, I think that's really strong. Why not me? Not as like, what have I done wrong to not be me? But like, why not me? Because I also deserve this. I think that is, I think it's a very, very strong point. And, um, To be a good advocate, you also have to be a good self-advocate. And that's sometimes easily overlooked because I feel like it's easier, at least for me, and I feel like for you as well, Jennifer, not you, Nick, but to think of other people ahead of yourselves, you know, and you have to take care of yourself, you know?

Yes. Well, and you're the one that forced me to say I'm a developer and I could never get the words out, right? I know we've had this conversation so many times. But it's like you don't always think of yourself first or that, you know, you're— and it's not like in a way that's intentional. It's not like I'm like, oh, I know, like, I'm fine. I don't need to worry about me or whatever. But it's just the things that drive you, that motivate you, that challenge you are the things that are helping other people.

Indeed.

This role is where that came. Like, my mission before I even knew this opportunity was available at HubSpot was empowering developers. Like, yeah, through the experience I had leaving my last company and looking for a new role, just the amount of people that reached out, that connected with me, that wanted to help me to be successful. I asked the same question, well, why not that person?

And why—

Mm-hmm. Like, this person's been open to work and they're equally, if not more qualified than I am. So how can I, like, connect you together and I think that finding that, how do you empower other people? It does help you see those things in yourself. It's just not the things you talk about. Like, you know, it's not like I don't have my own podcast. I can't just be like, hey guys, I do cool things.

Yeah.

But yeah, I feel like we've been, we've been taught that selfish is a bad word. And to an extent, sure it is, but like, it's also an important thing to be to an extent, right? Like you need to take care of self. It's, it's, you need to be a little bit selfish.

Plus too, if you're not gonna advocate for yourself, who else is, right?

Right.

You can't rely on other people to— I mean, you can't just sit back and hope that other people will advocate for you and like your— the things that you do, like the accomplishments that you have. Like, that's why I think like being a bit of a narcissist kind of is not necessarily a bad thing. Not that I would know, but I'm just saying like, I'm not trying to justify you at all here, Nick.

That was not a justification for you by any means.

Oddly, that's how I saw it. That's weird. I don't know why that was. But no, it is. I mean, you're going to have to— there are times where you're going to have to fight to show that you know what you're doing and that you've done good things and screaming from the mountaintop. So that's— yeah. But it's a weird balance. Because like you were saying, Dennis, there's, um, you're, you don't want to be mistaken for, like, you want to be like, let's put it this way, you want to be like Jennifer and Dennis where you advocate for yourselves, but you don't want to be like me where it's like, is this guy talking about himself again? Like, so you want to try to strike a balance in between the two for sure.

So yeah, that's, that's a clip I'm going to be taking for sure.

Oh no, I think that's in a way, like, I think because I advocated for so many other people, like Dennis advocated for me. You know, he was like, hey, there might be an opportunity at HubSpot, right? Like, he was probably the first person looking out for me and helped me see that for myself. But like, it's not— I don't think it's a battle between selfish and selfless. You can be giving and you can get a lot.

See, yes, I totally agree with you.

You don't have to take though.

Like, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think you've got it. I think you've got it. But this is something that like a lot of people don't have. I think we just need to drive this into people's souls that it's okay to be a little bit selfish. It's okay.

Yeah, it is. It is.

Let me change the subject just a little bit because before we run out of time, I do want to get to know you a little bit better. And I wanted to ask you a question, like, how did you first get into, let's say, Just tech in general? Was there a moment that kind of like drew you to it?

You know, I think the last time I thought hard about this, then I thought, I was like, well, you know, I got my first computer in 4th grade and that like, I thought that was the thing, you know? And we were of the generation where computers in school was new. You know, our parents didn't have that, or even my older siblings didn't have that. I still had a typewriter, like, you know, going to school and having computers and that being part of it. And, you know, Clippy in Microsoft Word, you know, being your first friend, like first online friend, but not online. But I think one of the big moments for me was kind of around junior high. We had dial-up internet and I could only be on for 30 minutes a day. And so I was, I kind of got into GeoCities and websites and I basically like figured out how to print the code on the, like the dot matrix, literally the doo doo doo. I copied all the code into Word, printed it out, and then I started handwriting code, uh, literally like by hand. I had a book about like HTML from the library and I was handwriting it. And then on the typewriter, I would like, you know, type some of it up and like look at it. But honestly, like I would go on and, um, as soon as the 30, like I'd get connected to the internet and then it was like a race and I had my notes in front of me so I can type like 200-something words a minute.

Wow.

That's awesome.

Yeah. And so I just got really into it because I wanted to see like, hey, all these changes that I'm making, what do they look like? And then I would kind of do the same thing at the very end. I'd copy all the code, print it out again. and kind of repeat. And I never really, like, I tried to do computer science in college and decided not to do that. And there's a whole story there. I think that was on another, I talked about that on the, when we took over the D-Hub, when SJ and crew and I took over the D-Hub before. So catch that story there. But yeah, I just, It wasn't right. And it's just web and HTML has always fascinated me and it's kind of been underlying. So like in architecture school, I was the first one to have like a web portfolio. I learned Flash and it helped me get my first job. When I left architecture and I got into multimedia design, it was my web experience that proved that I could, like I had a digital portfolio. It proved that I could Learn, even though I've never done a JibJab video, I could learn how to do a JibJab video. Like, you know, it's those things. And it got me my first role in marketing. The company needed a website. And so just like that underlying, underlining, underlying, underlying, right? Underlying foundation of web. And it just pushed me. And as soon as I found HubSpot and once it started to evolve to the platform, Then it just like the floodgates opened and I just really started looking at, you know, how do I make the most of this technology? How do I connect and integrate and expand it? But is that a moment? A lifetime for me.

Do you feel like you— oh, sorry, go ahead.

No, go ahead.

I was just saying, curious, like when you, when you did discover HubSpot, How influential was the community aspect? I mean, do you think you would've pursued it further if it wasn't for the community?

So I come to, it was 2016. I actually didn't know about the community in the beginning. Okay. What happened, I was going through onboarding and they really wanted me to publish a blog and I was never going to get approval for why to buy instead of rent, like the PDF, the blog, So I didn't know how to get through onboarding and I had to implement sales and marketing. So I went to Academy and I got my first certifications that I just like really started rolling. But then I would hit like a limitation, like, well, as homeowners, you don't have a job title that matters to a deal. And I was like, how can I change that? And support's like, oh, you can't. The deal record is always going to have name and job title. And I was like, well, this sucks. Well, let's just use job title for something else. So we started putting different information and that was not their job title. It was something else they put in there. And I just kept going to support with all these B2C problems. And they were like, go put that in the ideas. And so I actually found the community through ideas.

Ah, interesting.

Around like 2018, '19 in there. And then it kind of just grew. And once I found the ideas, then It, you know, I started seeing questions and all those good things. But the community, like, the community had the biggest impact and the ecosystem overall with staying, because from that moment on, like, I looked at jobs at HubSpot and they were all on-site in Boston at the time, and I was like, well, that's not gonna happen. But wherever I work, it just needs to be a company that uses HubSpot in some way. And I'll be okay. And I think that's held true and it's kind of been what guided me through my random, you know, last 3 and a half, 4 years of experience. But yeah, there's something special about it, the community and the ecosystem.

Nick, I just want to say props to you for having Jennifer insert that subtle real estate, you know, reference there to keep that going for you.

It's kind of like mandatory in the, in the, in the pre-sheet that we give people. If they can't mention it, then we just don't do the show with them, basically. It's kind of like a, it's a— I've become that picky where I, we need to mention it every single time. But I'm, I'm happy when it happens. You know what I mean? I'm just like, I sit back, I enjoy it because I know Dennis is thinking in his head, oh, we're talking about this again. I knew it. I knew it. So it gives me a little bit of, a little bit of joy that I, I like to just kind of like to keep in my little joy, my little bucket of joy over here on the side that I, my real estate bucket. One of these days we're going to have my manager at the real estate place on here if I can ever get him to do it, just so we could talk a whole episode of real estate.

Oh my God.

Just drive Dennis nuts.

I'm going sabbatical soon, so, you know, schedule. Yeah, there we go.

There we go. You did mention, you mentioned architecture, right? That, that was the, what you went to, basically what you went to school for, right?

Yeah.

You, in that, in that same question that I was talking about, you had mentioned that you actually got to visit. Did you, did you help design one of the buildings at the school?

Yeah. So I, after I graduated, my mentor told me, don't get your master's degree here and don't get a job in the Dallas-Fort Worth area. You're just going to learn from people who know the same things as you. So, uh, not, I don't think my parents were very happy about it, but I applied for over 300 jobs across the country, not a single one in Texas. So Seattle, Florida, Pennsylvania, New York, everywhere. And I got 3 interviews. Um, 2 were in person. One was a phone screen. One was Orlando or no, Miami. Um, and the other was Wilkes-Barre, Pennsylvania. And I, they were like, well, are you really sure you can be here? I was like, well, I have this gallery thing in Washington, DC, um, for my study abroad in Finland, and we're all having a reunion there, and that's halfway. I was like, I'll just drive the other 2 hours and I'll, I'll be there. And so I drove 1,700, 1,600 miles from Texas to Pennsylvania. I interviewed for this job, and like 20 minutes into my drive home, they called me on my like old Motorola, you know? And they were like, uh, since you drove all this way, like, we feel like we need to offer you this job. Wow. My, um, I mean, I'm qualified, I will say. Right.

No, I just love the driving part because like I'm a huge fan of it myself. Like I just, I would've done the same thing.

Yeah.

So I mean, I was there. Um, that wasn't my first cross-country trip, but you know, I, I went and I, um, was really lucky. I was part of an incredible team. The company I worked for, they designed Apple Stores. They designed like Bill Gates' home in Washington State. Like they have 5 offices across the country, just phenomenal architecture that makes you kind of feel— it just connects with nature. It's very modern and just amazing. But anyway, I got to work on this project at Penn State and I was building the foam and the models for it. We did the 3D Revit. I got into all of that, went through, and about 2 years into working there, the recession finally caught up because I graduated in the housing bubble, of course. And so they had their first set of layoffs and I never got to see it finish. But last summer we went to Pennsylvania, my husband and daughter and I, and we drove through Penn State and we got to walk through the building together.

That is awesome.

Yeah. I mean, I can't take— I mean, obviously I was not the architect and there was a whole team and everything, but there were little pieces of it where I was like, I had a Played a part in this and there's a building that exists that I helped.

That's amazing.

That's amazing. I love that. That was fantastic. Let me ask you, does the, um, and you don't have to get super detailed into it, but if you don't want to, but the, um, another thing I like to ask people, because like, as anyone who's been listening to the show thus far, right? And other shows as well. Like there's definitely a huge tech aspect, right? That everybody knows, let's say, rewind the clocks back 10 years or maybe even more, the balance of work and home life was a little bit more easier to separate, right? Without smartphones, without this, without that, without the instant contact from anyone and everyone at any given moment, especially when you work in real estate. It happens, right? It happens now, but before, not so much. Is there a, um, do you find it hard or is it, is it a challenge to create that work-life balance?

Um, I think when I first started working from home, it was during COVID like you're in lockdown on top of it. So it was much harder to walk away from the desk or to differentiate, but I feel like I've gotten a lot better at it and have a good balance. I run and walk in the mornings. We walk our dogs twice a day, work out. Like, I think for me, and it's why I don't have any hobbies, I think because anything I do outside of work is like working out or using, like moving my body because you're constantly sitting. Or if you're lucky to have a standing desk, you know, you have that. But it's just that being in front of a screen. So anything that forces me to get away from a screen. Um, hiking, camping, you know, watching my daughter play soccer, any of those things that just takes you away from devices are the things that I kind of lean towards.

That— no, 100%. Absolutely. I love that.

Um, and, and that's how you— I don't know, that's how I make balance, right? Like, really?

Oh, absolutely. No, I, I, I agree with that cuz it's hard. It is. It's, it's hard to like strike that balance now when even, cuz like it's even hard, like most, a lot of people we talk to too, even when they have, you know, 'cause another question which we try to ask is like, is there a particular hobby or something that you would do that's the least, or if you could choose a job that was least tech savvy to kind of get away from everything? And it's a hard, it's just a hard question to answer nowadays because there isn't, they're almost, you can hardly find a thing that doesn't really involve like the tech aspect of things where when You try to kind of balance out because work-life balance for like anybody, not just at HubSpot, like just, but just say for example, that works at HubSpot, it's heavy tech all day, every day. Like I'm, I still answer Slack questions when I'm not working or when I'm, when the weekend pops up and there's something that's driving me nuts, you know, I'm, since we work from home, like I'm only 2 seconds away from walking to the computer, sitting down and trying to vibe code something, you know, especially now. Um, so it, it is really hard to try to separate those 2 things. But I think, um, I think like you said, I think the answer is to try to do those things that get you out. Uh, I know Isaac too. Isaac likes to hike and Isaac likes to go on like those type of things are like, those are the things that are gonna, I'm sure you're gonna have your phone with you obviously in case, I mean, especially if you're hiking, like there's a bear attack, you gotta get a phone.

Like, it's totally gonna save you. That's totally gonna save you.

Well, at least you can call somebody. I'm just saying like, you're not gonna go out without it.

Yeah.

But it's one of those things where it's like, yeah, the phone is going to be the thing.

Yeah.

If they like a taser in a phone, that's the next iteration. I believe the next iPhone version is going to have that. But no, it's just one of those things where it's like, those are the type of things that you kind of have to try to maybe even force yourself to do if it's outside of like something that you would have normally done to try to get yourself away from that. So, you know, I agree that those are the type of things that you're going to just People are just going to have to try to pursue if they really want to escape. Yeah.

Yeah.

And I, I actually like, I, it's been a while now, but I take Pilates classes. Like I go to a gym that has a schedule and I don't always take the same classes every day of the week, but for consistently for the last 7 years I've been taking these classes and it's way outside of my comfort zone. And, you know, I feel a little bit stronger, but I feel like I don't have a lot to show for it, but it's Accountability to like step away, and sometimes you know my favorite class is Tuesday at 9:30, but it's on my schedule, and I just work a little bit earlier, and I stay a little bit later. But I think that's the balance part that like really makes it work. I I don't know how the the people who are like being monitored and recorded, and you know every every keystroke analyzed, like to to get up and work at eight till five, and you're like everything is observed. I don't think those people will ever find balance. And I hope that nobody who has work from home employees like enforce that because it, it's terrifying. That's not reality. And, you know, giving people independence and accountability and responsibility is all part of working from home. And it doesn't come through that, you know, big brother type of control.

Yeah.

Um, so yeah, I think having some flexibility in your schedule too, and then Having things that they're gonna charge me $18 if I don't go to that class. So I'm gonna go to that class.

That's always motivation too, right?

I've heard a good hobby someone told me about recently is you go to a big box hardware store like a Lowe's or a Home Depot and you get PVC pipe and just put it on the ground and put it together. I'm not sure who told me that.

Sounds like genius to me.

Like put together in the store?

I was building, uh, uh, for, for my pool. I was building the piping because like, uh, uh, was it the inbound? I don't remember if it was the inbound with you, Dennis, or the one before that. When I was there, like when they installed the pool, it was all, it was all like, it was just all the corrugated tubing, like the rubber tubing or the plastic tubing. And it had cracked while I was away. And my wife's like, what is going on? And it's just like, it was like this waterfall of just And it was just pouring out and pouring out. And I'm like looking at it on my phone and she's showing me and I'm like, I'm in Boston. I can do nothing. You're in Illinois. I cannot like, uh, but luckily there were, there were family in the area that could come in just like, but like, I was like, I'm never dealing with this again. So I, in the store, uh, I think it was last year. I just sat on, I was trying to build out like how it was going to frame out and how like all it was going to fit together and the stuff. So I'm like literally sitting on the floor. Of like, I think it was Home Depot. And I'm just like with all these plumbing parts, these PVC pipes just all over the floor. And they're like, everyone's like, and plus it's late at night too, because I shop late at night. It's like therapy for me. But it's just like, so like, like it just is, they must have thought I was just like, I had lost it because I'm just sitting there and I'm like, like I was playing with Tinker Toys on the ground. It was just crazy. But yeah, that's, I mean, it's a sign of genius really. It's a It's what I do, basically.

Einstein used to do that as well, I believe. Yeah, it's true.

Yeah, I did, because he cleaned pools, I believe. Yeah, yeah. So that was—

It's a very, very niche skill, learning to assemble PVC piping just the right way.

It's on my resume, so I hope it works. I mean, like, you know, for that next job, because I mean, obviously, you know, this is, you know, this is my true calling, but, you know, you got to have a fallback at least. So, but that'll be it. But no, I wanted to, I wanted to say, is there, and I ask this because sometimes people don't want to be found, but is there anywhere that people can find you if they want to follow more?

I'm on LinkedIn. That's kind of the main spot, the community in the developer Slack. So if you're there, join. If you're watching this, you are part of the developer community. So come join us.

And the Academy. Don't forget to check the Academy soon.

Yeah, probably not inbound week because nobody's going to pay attention to that, but the week after inbound or so, we'll launch it.

We got an event inbound, don't we, Jennifer?

There is an event inbound. Yeah, hit us up for an exclusive invite right now. I don't know when this is going live, so I don't know how much I can say right now, but definitely there is a developer builder party as always. bigger and better every year. I won't be there, but it's going to be amazing.

So Dennis will be there.

Yeah, Dennis is gonna keep the party going for me.

Indeed.

He's gonna represent— he's gonna represent us all.

We can make Jennifer cutouts. And you guys can all take—

I told them I wanted a— I wanted a full-size, like, cardboard cutout of myself there. I don't know what the— I think you have to pay more because of the height of the mohawk. But like, I think it's worth the extra money.

So unfortunately, the rest of your body is very short.

So I was gonna say, that's the thing. I'm 2 foot tall, but with like a 4-foot mohawk. It's very weird to print that. It's odd. But, um, but no, I wanted to say, and we're running up on time, but I did want to say thank you for coming on. And I thank you for coming back after, yeah, after I ditched, I think twice, uh, you know, for personal stuff. But like, um, I, I do want to thank you for coming on because this was one of, uh, the episodes that I really wanted to have because You know, knowing that when you were coming on board, it was one of those things where, you know, when you get to talk to somebody who's, you know, come from the community and a champion as well, you know, rightfully so, you get to like the people that we get to meet on these episodes that we shoot are just phenomenal and they're fantastic. And everybody comes with this kind of set of Not just stories, but there's these lessons learned, these mentorships, right? Not just with the program, but like the things that you've learned. And every time I tell Dennis, every single time we do an episode, I am amazed at just how great every single— there's never been one that we've been like, oh man, I wish that could have been better. And it still rings true to this day, to right now, to 1 hour into this. It's fantastic. And I just want to say thank you for coming on. It's just—

Indeed. Yes, yes.

Yeah, we still hit an hour. I know you said that they were going to be shorter, but between the two of us, we managed to get through a whole hour. But thank you so much for having me. And Dennis, as always, really happy to chat. So thank you guys so much for having me twice.

Yeah.

We usually, we end something like, I try to come up with something funny and witty, but What I wanted to do for this one is I wanted you to go on record, Jennifer, and I want you to say to end the show, I am a developer.

Hmm.

Do it.

Okay, I'm gonna look at Dennis when I say this. Okay, I am a developer.

Ah, there we go.

Be still, my heart. Be still.

All right, everyone, thank you for—

thank you.

Thank you for watching, everyone. We really do appreciate it. Don't forget to like the video and don't forget to subscribe to the HubSpot YouTube channel. Thanks.