Handling Rejection & Negative Feedback in Business with Alexis Teichmiller

Weigh rejection and feedback differently. Not all feedback or rejection needs to be weighed the same. So, like you just said, if someone leaves a negative review or they say something about me, I don't even know them and there's no relationship there, then it's like, okay, I'm going to take that with a grain of salt. And depending on what it is, I might either laugh it off or be like, huh, I can objectively look at that. And they gave me feedback on this workbook. Okay. You know, all right. But if it's a client that I've been working with for a year, let's say, and they give me feedback, I'm going to like really marinate on that. I might even journal through it and really see, okay, based on this feedback, how do I want to proceed? Because it's more meaningful because it's, it's from a relationship. Welcome to the Web Design Business Podcast with your host, Josh Hall, helping you build a web design business that gives you Freedom and a lifestyle you love.

Well, hello friend. Great to have you here for this episode of the Web Design Business Podcast, where we're going to take a deep dive into everybody's favorite subject, rejection. Yes. When you start a business, you're not going to get all yeses. You're going to get a lot of nos. You're going to get a lot of not nows, and you're going to get a lot of proposals that are rejected that, man, you thought you had. And it crushes you and it can demoralize you. It can affect your confidence, a lot of negative things. So I'm actually really excited to have on Alexis Teichmiller to dive into this in a little more detail. Now, Alexis, I know her primarily as the partner success manager with Circle, which is the platform that I use for Web Designer Pro, my web design membership. That's how we actually met. And Alexis is really interesting because she's also a life coach. So she also has a lot of experience outside of being a success manager through Circle. She also has a lot of experience as an online entrepreneur, as a life coach, and as a podcast host. Her brand is called the Deeper Life brand, and you can find that if you go to her website at alexistechmiller.com. And she also is the host of the Deeper Life podcast. The reason I wanted to specifically talk with her about rejection is because she had an Instagram post a while back. About how she's learned to separate the business side of herself from the personal side of herself. And if you are anything like me, what I just covered a minute ago is what I struggled with for years, which is like, if there was a proposal that I really wanted to get and I didn't get it, it affected me and really, really wore me down. And as I gained more experience over the years, it's not that I expected nos, but I anticipated there to be nos. And I was able to almost build like a muscle that just, Helped me keep my confidence and bounce back very quickly. And that's what I want to help you with in this episode. We cover weighing negative feedback differently, which was really interesting. We covered setting emotional boundaries between yourself and your business. We covered how to protect your confidence no matter how many nos you get, covered how to learn from rejection and take some positive out of it. So much covered in this episode. Without further ado, Here is Alexis. I'll follow up with you at the end of this episode and share some links to head to next and the ways to connect. By the way, I hope you're enjoying that. I decided to cut the intros a little shorter in the beginning to follow up at the end of the episode with thoughts. So let me know if you're enjoying that. You can just hit me up. Actually, in this case, just go to this episode's show notes at joshhall.co/263. Leave me a comment. Go there anyway for all the links after this episode. Speaking of, here's Alexis. Let's talk fun stuff like rejection. Alexis, welcome. I was gonna say welcome back to the show. It's technically your first time on the show, but it is our second interview because the first one, for whatever reason, didn't record. But by golly, we're doing it again. So it's good to see you again.

You too. We are dedicated to the mission, and I appreciate you inviting me back on so that we could rerecord this.

And the shame of a really good conversation is it's not going to be exactly the same. Like, I remember some stuff we hit on and we'll just, you know, we're not going to have the exact bullet points to cover again, but I'm sure we'll have a good conversation around the same topic that we talked about the first time, which is rejection. So, I mean, you know, what a topic. I'm sure you're thrilled to talk about rejection twice with me, right?

I'm so excited to talk about rejection.

Speaking of, your audio was rejected last time, so how ironic. So why don't we start out with what you do and what, what do you tell people when they ask you what you do, Alexis?

Yes. So my name is Alexis Teichmiller and I'm the partnerships manager at Circle, which is an incredible community platform for brands, entrepreneurs, and small businesses. So that is my 9 to 5. I get to work with entrepreneurs all the way at the beginning ideation stage of their business to, you know, 6, multiple 7-figure entrepreneurs. And In terms of my side hustle, I am a chronic side hustler and I have 2 podcasts. One is called The Deeper Life Podcast, which is relaunching this summer. And then the other one I've been doing for about a year now, it's called In Between, The In Between Podcast. And I host that with my best girlfriend and we talk about all of the things in between career, relationships, body image, fashion, and We go deep and we also are very lighthearted. And then to round it out, I'm also a life and business coach. So, I specifically help career women who are ambitious and I kind of sit on the corner of woo-woo and get shit done. So, I love coaching my coaching clients, helping them achieve goals and make sure that they're in alignment with their values while they do it.

So interesting that you mentioned the, the edge that you're on with the woo-woo crowd, because what I found is people who are very passion-driven or maybe emotional or spiritual or whatever that looks like tend to have like a lot of heart in their business. But heart often leads to delays and procrastination and just not getting shit done, like you said. So there's kind of a balance when you're somebody who has feelings inside of your business, I would imagine, right?

Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think that values can help guide us. They help us make decisions. They help us gain clarity on direction. And at the same time, when we are so feelings-focused, we can procrastinate. We can shift into like, well, it's just, I'm not feeling it. I'm not motivated. I'm not inspired. And so, we kind of look for reasons why to not take action because we're too in our feelings. So, it's like, how do we separate the two? Recognizing that feelings play a big role. They are like— symptoms to something that's going on that's a bit larger. And then, we also have to introduce the discipline, the choices, the consistency so that we can get things done. Like you, releasing this podcast every single week, that requires a level of discipline. And I'm sure there are days where you don't feel like doing this, but you have to show up. So, how do we make space for both of those things?

That's a great point. Yeah. I actually just recently have felt that where I never dread a podcast interview, even if I like— I know you, Alexis. We've worked together for a little while now, so I know, like, I love the chance I get to chat with you. Like, I know it's going to be fun. We're both going to walk away with some fresh ideas and probably some inspiration. But there are times where if I don't know a guest really well, I'm like, I hope this isn't boring. I hope it's good. Or at least I can hope I can make this a good conversation for everyone.

Yeah.

But it does come down to like having that discipline of I'm going to record this. It's in the books unless there's a reason I need to reschedule or there's something that came up. We're gonna do it. I think the times where sometimes I feel like not doing an interview regardless is when I have other things I want to do. So that's also one thing I've learned as a podcaster, and maybe you have as well. It's like you, you do have to mix the to-do list and the projects you want to get done, especially you having a lot of endeavors. I'm sure you, you, you— I imagine this is a challenge where it's like sometimes even though you're looking forward to this, you almost want to just get the other stuff done first, but you do have to. Balance them in some way when it comes to getting it all done.

Yeah, yeah, I definitely lean on the urgent and important matrix quite a lot. So, it's like, okay, is this urgent and important? Then I need to do it right now. Is it urgent and not important? Okay, could I potentially delegate this? Is it not important and not urgent? Okay, cool. This does not need to be on my to-do list. So, if I kind of qualify a lot of my tasks and overwhelm using that matrix. It really helps me. And if you Google urgent and important matrix, you can actually see a lovely graph where you can actually like put in your to-do list and help you qualify what to focus on and what does not need to be on your list today.

I love that tip, Alexis. That is gold. Yeah. Because all tasks generally fit into one of those categories. Uh, yeah. So I love that idea of being able to Yeah, to put those in the right place to either make it happen now or make it happen in a little bit, or maybe save it for, uh, when you can have the time for it.

Absolutely.

And some, some of this kind of— I think tasks and disciplines feed into like the, um, your emotion, like your emotional state as a business owner. And I think this all feeds into rejection because I guess the question I wanted to get to here right off is how do we separate our emotions from our business? Because before we talk about rejections, I think we need to probably lay the foundation of like having a healthy balance or separation between the two, maybe. I don't know. What are your thoughts on that?

Yeah, I think, I mean, immediately what comes to mind is boundaries. So our business can thrive whenever we don't have boundaries, but then our emotional life, our personal life is going to take a hit. And our business can also thrive when we put boundaries in place so that we're looking at a holistic life. Right? So, as a business owner, so much of your business becomes a bit of your identity, right? Because it's your personal brand, it's your personal business, it's personal. So, how do you separate the business from who you are as an individual? And a lot of that comes with the boundaries. So, how the business is doing doesn't have to dictate how I feel about myself, and how I feel about myself doesn't have to dictate the direction of the business. Now, I know that's hard because it is so emotional and it is so personal, but I think that When you're looking at rejection, the same goes. When I'm rejected, someone tells me no, a client or a prospect coaching client, you know, it's not a good fit. What I could do is I could begin to write the narrative that I'm just not a good coach, or I'm not good at my job, or like, what does this say about me? I'm just a failure, if you want to go like even more broad.

Mm-hmm.

But when you have appropriate and healthy boundaries in place, you can recognize that them saying no is them saying no. There's a lot of reasons that lead to a no, and I get to choose how I want to attach that. I can learn from it. It can be a lesson, but it doesn't have to be a part of my identity. And that's the separation.

That's a great point. Yeah. The identity factor, especially when it's your baby, when it's your business, whether it's a personal brand or a business name, if it's yours, there is a different level of like a deeper feeling than when you just work for a company. I don't know. Have you felt that? I mean, working with Circle, you're a very integral part of that team, but it feels different than your business, right? Like when the other businesses that you, that you work, that you do. Right.

I would say rejection in work is more if like, I'm really excited about a partnership and it doesn't come through because it's not a good fit for the partner. And while that is rejection, I think it's easier because it's on behalf of a company where it's like, hey, you know what? It's not a good fit right now. Or, you know, our budget doesn't align with yours and I'd love to work with you, but if, you know, it doesn't work with your budget, then we can't work together. There's something about the emotions of it, I think, that are a bit removed because it's about a working business relationship. And then it's like when it's on behalf of you, when it's your business, your podcast, you want to have someone on the show and they tell you no, or you reach out for a collab and it's not a good fit, or, you know, a prospect coaching client comes to you and says, sorry, this isn't going to work for me, there is something there that's like, oh, like that. They're not saying no to a company or a brand. They're saying no to me. And I think that's where those boundaries come in place, where they are actually saying no to your brand or your coaching packages or your pricing. And that's okay. And there needs to be a level of like, there needs to be a gap there where you can remove yourself from The rejection a bit so that you don't take it so personal. And the reason why is because when you take it personal, there's like a rejection tax where you just like keep getting taxed every time you think about that rejection. And it just starts to become more and more a part of your identity. And it ends up keeping you from trying again. Right. It ends up like becoming the reason why you don't make the next ask or why, you know, you don't follow through with that prospect client and send them their follow-up details because you're like, ah, they probably don't want to work with me anyways. That last one told me no. So you kind of end up paying for the rejection instead of releasing it.

It's like every no starts to chip away at the confidence, doesn't it? Until you really do. I love that you articulated like an example of that boundary because I was just going to ask what, like, what do you mean by boundaries exactly? I'm sure there's quite a few we could get into, but I do totally agree that separation of Like me as a person and me as my business, like my pricing, my packages, my deliverables, the good fit aspect of all that. Yeah, there's a personality when it comes to like, you, you sell yourself as a web designer, as for my audience, but there is still like your business and your packages that just may not be a great fit or, or the client may not be a good fit. So thank you first off, Alexis, for sharing the boundaries of that, because that is My gosh, that's such an important lesson that I learned later on is to just not take every rejection and every no personally.

Right.

And it's hard. I mean, it's easier said than done, but I just think it's a good reminder continually, like no matter how established somebody is, I still remind myself of this today. Like if a student or somebody decides not to join Web Designer Pro, my community, or one of my courses, I really try not to take it personally.

Yeah.

And it's hard. Yeah, it is. Right. Yeah. It's like, no matter how— I do think it helps when you build that muscle of almost, I hate to say expecting rejection, but the reality is if you are a business owner, you're going to get a lot of nos. So it is probably worthwhile expecting it in some way. Right.

Right. I think expecting a no can also help you with the learning process. So when someone, let's say you're getting a lot of nos. Okay. So, let's say you're experiencing a lot of rejection right now and almost feels like it's compounding on itself. I think that there's always an opportunity for reflection after rejection. So, in that reflection time, it's looking at, okay, is there something that I could have done better? Could I have communicated things differently or more effectively? What was my follow-up process like? Was it was it consistent enough? Did I articulate my value? Did I articulate my packaging and my pricing correctly? So it's actually like an opportunity to reflect, not criticize, not like oh here I go again. Like I didn't do this right. I didn't do this right. It's like can we objectively step back and look at ways that we could improve our processes if we are experiencing a lot of rejection? So for example. You're a podcaster and you are wanting to get a lot of guests on your show, and maybe you have tapped out your personal network. So you're starting to really do some like cold outreach here, and you've sent 10 cold emails and you haven't gotten either any replies or you've gotten all nos so far. Okay. Let's go back to the email that you've sent. Is it personalized? Are there ways that you could potentially go and read a blog post or watch a reel or listen to one of their podcast episodes to learn more about that guest and then put that content in the email pitch? Like, there are ways that we can look at our processes to improve that don't have to be a part of like, oh, I'm just not good. It's okay. Could we potentially make this better so that those nos could turn into maybes and those maybes could turn into yeses? This is a great fit. So I think like not all rejection is just like, all right, keep moving forward. I think some rejection can teach us how to improve as well.

Great point. And it's probably worthwhile bringing this up too right now, where if you are constantly in front of bad fit clients, there's going to be a lot of nos, but that actually may be a good thing. Like for example, in the web design world, I've had to teach a lot of my students, like, if you're getting a lot of nos, but the clients are just not a good fit for you, then we just need to work on your packages and your positioning and get in front of the right clients.

Right.

Um, and those yeses, like, depend— there's a lot of different talk about like the ideal conversion rate percentage and stuff. And I think everyone probably has their own thoughts on that. But the reality is I do expect no matter what it is, there to be a decent amount of nos, but If you have like out of 10, if you have like all 10 nos, then that's where, yeah, the self-reflection thing like you mentioned, Alexis, is huge.

Right.

But if you get a handful of nos or even a high percentage of nos, but you get like 3 really good clients out of 10, I would actually consider that a success depending on the business model. So it is one of those things where it's like you have to think about your ideal clients. And because sometimes nos actually might be oddly a good thing. Yeah. Or you want to make sure you don't— worst case, you want to make sure you funnel out the bad fit clients. That way, when you do get to the point where you do proposals, they are good clients. And then you can measure that much more effectively, I feel like.

Yeah, I completely agree. I think there's also an element here that let's say you had a prospect client book a call with you. You did a consultation, like an inquiry. Okay, let's learn about each other. And that went so well. This has happened to me as a co— as a career coach as well. The inquiry call was amazing. The energy is there. You're feeling super in sync. Like you are aligning and you feel this click with a potential client. And you're like, you leave the consultation call and you're like, wow, like I am really excited to work with this person. I am like 98% sure this is going to be a yes. And then you follow up with your packages and you ask when's a good time for you to make a decision. And then they end up telling you no. And you're like, wow, I'm misreading all these signs. Like the energy was there. The alignment was there. They said that they needed exactly what I offered. I'm so confused. In situations where that has happened to me, I have actually asked the prospect client, hey, I would love to learn what, what wasn't a good fit. Can you share, if you feel comfortable, what about the coaching process or our consultation call ended up making this not a good fit for you? And what I have learned almost 90% of the time, it's price.

Hmm.

I am not in a position right now where I can afford this. And from at that point, I'm like, I immediately respect that. Like, and obviously I'm going to respect it no matter what, but I would never want to talk someone into spending money on something that's going to put them in a difficult financial position. Like, that's just never— that's for my integrity. That's not something that I feel comfortable with. Now, if it's something else where it's like, oh, I was kind of unclear actually about this part of your packaging, I'm like, cool, I can rectify that. Like, let's, let's get clarity. But whenever you open the door and you ask a prospect who told you no, Why? I think it's a really helpful tool as well of, like, learning, okay, how could I do this better? Or if you don't ask, you'll also wonder why. You're like, wow, like, we were really comfortable.

And then you can start to doubt yourself right then. It's like, maybe it's me, maybe I'm the problem.

Yes, yes. And then if you ask and the client doesn't respond, that's still on, like, their responsibility, but you at least open the door for feedback. And then, you know, if they don't walk through it and meet you there and give you that feedback, then that's okay too. But It just, I think it's building the muscle of holding rejection loosely enough to where you can still learn from it, but it doesn't become a part of you.

Ah, what a clip. So we just talked about you, we just talked about you using Riverside after our last conversation, despite it not recording. You got things worked out, we got it worked out. And one reason I love Riverside is you can just press a little M while you're in a conversation to mark a clip. And I've got like 5 already marked, Alexis. This is awesome. Like such, That's such good foundational advice. I cannot recommend that enough, what you just said, to ask why, like why it didn't work out. And you can do this tactfully and just really casually and just say, all right, I appreciate it. If you would be like— what I've done is I just say, if you'd be open, can you just share maybe why you decided not to go with my proposal? I'm very open to constructive feedback. So, you know, just I'm happy to hear it like it is. I won't take it personally.

Right.

Make it, I guess, the tactile recommendation I have is to make it very open because you don't also don't want to get a shallow response. We don't— you don't want somebody to say, well, I just— we just like the other company. Like, that doesn't really help. Like, oh yeah, is it a price point? Is it your proposal? For example, one project that still kind of guts me, it was at the later end before I sold my agency, is I got invited to go to a light fixture manufacturer here in Columbus.

Wow.

And they were a really cool company. And I like, we, same thing, like the meeting I went there, we, I really jived with the marketing director and I thought for sure I was going to get it because he really liked me. He really liked the site, the sites that I was doing. And I sent the proposal, it was like a $15,000 proposal. And we had a really good email back and forth. I thought for sure next day I would see proposal signed. And they said, hey, Josh, we decided to go with another company. Thanks so much for your time. And I was like, oh, that one hurt. I mean, I was 10 years in and it still hurt. It still stings a little bit. And that you just recommended. I asked, hey, would you mind sharing, you know, what, what was it about the other company that helped you, uh, made you decide? And he said, they just went a little further with the mock-up of the website and gave us a good idea of what to expect. Which told me it wasn't anything that I was doing wrong. It was just something that I could do better.

Right.

And that really helped me when I thought about, okay, if there's like a big $15,000 project that I really want, Then go a little further in the like mockup stages and give them some real-life inspiration that's like catered to them, that's personalized. So that was like an example of how I used some feedback through rejection. I'm curious from you, Alexis, do you have one? Do you have like a story or something that you've been through when it came, when it came to like maybe a rejection with a coaching client or something that you personally learned from to improve on? Yeah. Yeah. Or even circle or whatever.

I would say similar to the one that I, that I shared earlier was around pricing. Like we were clicking, the energy was perfect. Like we even had similarities in our story, like in our own background that we were bonding over. And when I reached out and followed up with her on the contract, because even on the call I shared my pricing because I believe in pricing transparency. And so when I'm on a call with a prospect, We're going to discuss price on the call. I don't want to have this amazing consultation call and then be like, great, I'll send you over the billing details. And they open up the email and they're like, oh my gosh, like, I didn't know any, you know. So, so we talked through pricing on the call and she— I had asked her, how does this sound? Or something along the lines of that when it came to the pricing package. And she said, this sounds good. This sounds doable was her language. And I was like, okay, great. And I said, "Do you have any questions about pricing? What's included? What's not?" Not to justify pricing, but just to talk through pricing. I think it's important to do that with your clients. And she said no. And I was like, "Okay, great." So then when I when she ended up not being a good fit, I asked her why, and it was about pricing. I was very interested in that because what that told me is that that client, while I was comfortable being transparent about pricing and talking about money. The client wasn't at her stage, and so we ended up discussing it. You know, over message, but she wasn't comfortable discussing it verbally with me, and I was like, okay, great learning opportunity. So even though I might bring that up to discuss with a client, they might not feel comfortable, and so be be used to different mediums of conversation or communication with clients because sometimes what you're comfortable discussing and being. Like very open and honest about, they might not feel as, as comfortable with that.

Great point. Especially like, that's very much my personality where I just hate saying no to somebody as a service provider and letting them down. So like, even though I've become more and more transparent and frank over the years, I do like, if you and I were having a one-on-one and you asked, how does the price sound? I'm like, I actually just can't do this right now. It would probably be really hard for me to be like, I love that. I love the ideas, but I just can't do it right now. It would probably, you know, my personality type, that is a hard thing that I would have to get over. So it's a great point to be wary about that and to make sure. And that's where the feedback can come in, because then it's like, well, like in that case, what I advise my students to do is have price ranges and packages that start at certain ranges.

Mm-hmm.

So that way, even before they get to a call, they know vaguely what to expect. That way somebody doesn't come through expecting a $500 website. If your sites start at $5,000, that way you get the people who are like, okay, well, you know, that's at least doable. Now we can have that chat. So that's usually my, my personal recommendation and workaround towards the pricing thing. Because I mean, the reality is with proposals, there's so many different levels of rejection that can happen, whether it's competence, likability, and just a good fit. Like some people, I, As much as we were telling people not to take it personally, there is an aspect as a service provider and my gosh, as a coach, I'm sure like a personal style coach, there is a, there is a personality thing. And it's like some people may just not want to work with you because they're, they're not the best fit personality-wise. And that's something too that you do have to kind of get over. And as a recovering people pleaser and somebody who grew up just wanting everyone to love me and like me, I had to realize like some people just aren't going to like me and I just got to get over that. I, I still I will never forget when I was in the band days, we had a bassist, uh, fill in for a while and I kind of liked his sister. Like I thought she was kind of cute and I must've overdone it because afterwards I asked him about, uh, his sister and he was like, oh yeah, she said you were kind of annoying. And it like gutted me. It crushed me. 'Cause I was like, oh man, I kind of liked her and she thinks I'm annoying. Ah, dagger in the heart. Um, but that taught me honestly kind of a business lesson, which is like clients are kind of similar. Like maybe you're actually a good fit and the price point is right there, but maybe the, The personality fit, for whatever reason, on both sides may not be there. And again, boundaries. You have to separate yourself as a person from your business as kind of a separate entity, which, ah, it's so hard. But I don't know. Do you have any other tips on that, Alexis, with just how to really make that a clear separation?

Yeah. I, as you were actually sharing your story, um, it made me think about when people do give us feedback and it's not a personality fit. I think something that's really important here at a very deep level is do you like yourself? Do you believe in your services? Do you believe in your value? Do you believe in your business? And business aside, do you like, you know, what you have to offer as a human being? Not just as a business owner, but just as a human. And so I think when you are feeling a a deep level of rejection, what can help is going back to center and being like, look at my qualities that I admire. How can I give myself empathy and compassion while this sting of rejection is real? How can I also remind myself that I am worthy, that I am confident in who I am and what I have to offer, that even though this is a no, I believe that there are more yeses out there for me? It's like shifting the mindset from this scarcity to abundance. And I think that when we get really, really narrow into rejection, what's wrong with us, people don't like my personality, people don't like my business, we kind of have to come back to center. And I think that what is very grounding is like, okay, if I could just sit with myself, let me list off some qualities about me that I like and enjoy. And it's almost like a self-soothing practice. Even as a business owner, maybe you don't want to do it personally, but as my business, here are real ways I know my business is making a difference in the world right now. Here are past clients. Let me go back to words that they've written to me, testimonials I've gotten. Let me remind myself of what I'm capable of and the impact that my business has had. And we need those reminders, right? Like, we're not robots. We have real feelings. And if we can bake in that practice of like, okay, let me go back and remind myself of who I am and what this business can do. I think that's also something that can really kind of give, get a pep in our step again.

Oh, absolutely. I think we've talked about, I have my wall over here. I have a little, uh, like a pegboard of, uh, little notes and testimonials from students who I'm starting to build out. I'm trying to think of, trying to figure out like a little wall of awesome that I'm going to create. I'm a terrible interior designer, so I don't know like what I'm going to make it look like. It might just be a bunch of Post-it notes and stuff. But I say that to say, it's a constant reminder that's in my view of these little testimonials and wins from, from students and stuff. And I think that's such a healthy and needed practice because going back to the expectation thing, you're going to get nos. You may get some nos, you may get a lot of nos depending on your proposal process and your positioning, like we've already talked about. But regardless, If you prime yourself with like feeling good about your services and knowing you get results and knowing some clients really liked you, that can help build that muscle of like defense against the nos and rejections you're going to get. So whether it's printed out things on your office wall or whether it's just a testimonials page or a success stories page, I can't recommend enough everyone do that.

Yeah.

Like right now. Okay. Action time. Create a success stories page on your website. Even if you're very new into the business and you have like 2 testimonials, make those your featured recent work testimonials and success stories and refer back to that. Like start every day or maybe every few days just revisiting that. And, or maybe next time you send a proposal, like look at these success stories first and then go into the proposal being primed, knowing that you're making a difference and people have liked you. So, ah, my gosh, Alexis, that's such a good point. The other thing I took from what you just said there Was, um, really differentiating competence in what I would call care or like a customer experience. Because the reality is when you're starting out in an industry, or even if you're implementing a new service, you may not have that much competence yet. And the question I always get from, from a lot of students if they're early on is like, well, that sounds great, Josh. Like, I want to be confident. I want to feel good about myself. And And that sounds awesome, but I haven't got a client yet, or I haven't got that many testimonials. But what I have found in my experience was that I, in the early days, mainly sold care. Like, I sold my inspiration and excitement for the project and honest care about doing my hardest to make this work for the client and help grow their business. And that's what got me clients in the first few months.

Love that.

So I don't know, do you have any thoughts about that? About like, if you're not feeling competent and you're not sure of your value yet, Maybe feeling more confident with the other things that may be going for you, whether it's your care or vision, personality, the figure-outiveness. I don't know. Do you have any thoughts on that?

I love that. I think the, the focus that you shared on, I sold how much I care about the client, about the project, I think that's really special. And other aspects of confidence that can play a role here is your inner narrative. So, if you're still building competency, which comes through skill and practice and time, what is your inner narrative saying to you? So, like, maybe you're writing down affirmations, maybe you're journaling, maybe they're just specific words like, I am intelligent. I'm competent in learning. I am a student of the job. I am like, it's reminding yourself of What you're capable of. That inner narrative is really powerful because in the beginning, when you are trying and you're trying really, really hard to build this business from nothing, the inner narrative will oftentimes turn to all the reasons why you shouldn't be doing it. You know that you know your mom said this. Your old mentor who you really respected told you that you weren't headed in the right direction. Like you'll start the inner narrative. will start to latch on to all of the past experiences and past phrases and conversations that will build up as evidence as to why you should not move forward. And so, when you can take control over the inner narrative, that's like step one in my opinion. You've got to be able to have a sense of empowerment over your thoughts and redirect them.

Yeah.

Negativity is just a part of it. You know, like, you will have negative thoughts.

Yeah. And you got to have like a boundary. Like we talked about boundaries with you and your business. You also have to have some boundary with your thoughts. And this goes back to one of my favorite quotes I've heard on the podcast when I had Amy Porterfield on. And she said this quote that has stuck with me ever since. And that is, you can't believe everything you think.

Right.

And I, my gosh, when it comes to this topic, that hit me so hard because we do often feel like our thoughts are real or Right, when that's not always the case. They're just thoughts. How many bad ideas do we have before we get to a good idea? So there, there, it's very worthwhile, no, at least realizing that there needs to be some sort of boundary between your thoughts and your heart. Like, what do you take to heart from your thoughts?

Yeah, and I think it's a focus on the facts. I was just walking a client through this the other day. She was prepping for her performance review at work. And she was like, this is really intimidating to me. I don't want to, like, overhype myself up. Doing a self-performance review is uncomfortable for me. And how we redirected that, how we reframed it, was, let's focus on the facts. Let's focus on getting all the facts of what you've accomplished over the past year down on paper in these different sections of the performance review. Once the facts are there, if there are areas where you want to add color and you want to add more of your feelings about the job, do that second, but first focus on the facts. And I think when, as you were saying, like when we allow our feelings to become fact, that is when we could really start to get ourselves out of alignment.

Good point. And I think what's interesting too, is as an online entrepreneur, Now, you're very— like, you have a lot of people right around you and a lot of people in your circle. Speaking of Circle, you're a part of the team of Circle, which is the platform that I love. No pun intended. No pun intended. But I say that to say, like, you cannot do this journey alone. And I wanted to ask you about the importance of community and having different levels of maybe community as a support system, because the reality is, no matter how strong mentally somebody is by themselves, if you are by yourself, that is a very dangerous Yeah. This is one reason, like with the confidence factor and the support factor with rejections and stuff, it's one of the main reasons I started my membership with Web Designer Pro is because even for people early on, I want them to be surrounded with everybody who is also like-minded in different stages of the journey. So if they are getting 10 nos in a row, they have a support system to say like, can you guys look at this to see what's wrong or give some insight, give me some encouragement? And that is so valuable. Like what do you, what is, what's your thoughts on community?

Yeah.

And the importance of helping with this idea of rejection to make sure you don't dip down too deep, too low, too dark by yourself, which can easily happen by yourself.

Yeah, great call out. I think community is like the lifeblood of life. You know, it's like the soul of life, being connected, having that level of vulnerability, mentorship, coaching, friendship. Is so incredibly important. I think there is also layers to community. You know, there's being in community with people that connect you with your humanity, that make you laugh, that entertain you. There's a level of community of like, I want mentors in my life that aren't actually going to tell me what I want to hear. I want an extreme level of transparency and honesty that if I come to a mentor or a coach that I really respect, I want to to feel like I can trust them enough to tell me the truth, not to tell me what they think I want to hear. And, I think this is a big piece of community in not making sure that you're in an echo chamber of people that just agree with you and validate you and affirm you. I have community that does both. I have a very affirming, validating community that says, we see you, we see your gifts, we love you, we love who you are. And, at the same time, I want a depth of community that And I'm going to call you out when you're not acting in line with your values.

Yeah. You need some challengers, right? You need somebody at some point to kick you in the ass and be like, hold on. Let's hold on. We could fix some things or you could do something better here.

Right. And I think that you can take that as a rejection. If a friend came to me and said, Alexis, I saw this happen and I really don't think that it aligns with who you say you are and who I know you to be. And I just wanted to challenge you to rethink about whatever that— I mean, This isn't— this has happened in the past, but like, it's an opportunity to say, wow, thank you for that level of care, that level of vulnerability. And I really appreciate you coming to me with that. Now, we could take that as like rejection.

Yeah.

Oh, someone's giving me feedback. Someone in my life that I care about is giving me feedback on ways that I could potentially improve. And instead, it's like, wow, they care about me so much. That they're coming to me with advice or feedback on things I could do better. So, yeah, I think it's definitely the twofold. You want people that are affirming, but you want people that are challengers. And if you're familiar with the Enneagram, I'm an 8 on the Enneagram, which is the challenger. So, I typically play that role in people that I'm very close with. I usually play that role in their life and I seek it as well. Like, I am challenging, but I also seek it.

Shocking.

Yeah, exactly.

Uh, yeah. Can you explain on that? I'm not familiar with that, uh, diagram. Enneagram, is that right?

With the Enneagram?

Yeah. Yeah.

So the Enneagram, there are 9 types of the Enneagram. Let me like literally just do a really quick Google test. So, um, the person, it's like a personality test. 10 out of 10 recommend taking it.

How do you spell that?

The Enneagram is E-N-N-E-A-G-R-A-M. And there's 9 types. There's the reformer, the helper, the achiever, the individualist, the investigator, the loyalist, the enthusiast, the challenger, and the peacemaker. And I— and when you test, you'll answer a lot of different questions, and then you'll have your main type, and then you'll have a wing. So, I am an 8 wing 7. So, I'm a challenger, but I'm also an enthusiast, which is really interesting. And then, in unhealth, I go to the investigator. So, each type has a wing that you go towards when you're really healthy and a wing that you go towards when you're unhealthy. So, as a challenger, I, when I'm unhealthy, go to the investigator, which I get really curious and I just want to know who's against me.

me.

You know, I'll get really, really hypervigilant, and I'll start to investigate like, okay, what's going on? How is the world working against me right now? That's where my mind will go when I'm unhealthy.

Hmm.

When I'm healthy, I go to a 2, which is the helper. I am very service-minded. I'm like, I'm so healthy. How can I just like serve and help other people and make other people's lives better? So, the Enneagram, I took it when I was 22. And for the first time, so 8 years ago, and it really helped me learn about myself. I loved it. I don't think that it's like, you know, gospel by any means, but it's definitely helpful.

And it reminds me so much of— yeah, it reminds me of DISC personality testing. It's almost like a more advanced version of that. I— when I did some coaching, uh, several years back, uh, a mandatory part of that program was, was doing a DISC test, which is very simple. I don't know if you've been through it, but it's, it's basically dominant.

I have.

Interactive, yeah, or social, or cautious. And yeah, at first I thought it was like, all right, this looks, you know, it's baloney, whatever, I'll do the test. And then when the test results came back, it nailed me to a T with exactly what I would do. I am very interactive and very S, which I've heard the S is different. I've heard that explained different, but the way I've taken S is more like steady. And loyal, uh, to where, like, I do not quit a thing if I commit to it. That is, uh, for good or for bad, that is, that is my thing. And I'm very interactive, like, um, relationships, partnerships, people inspire me, like, people energize me. Um, I'm dominant when I'm reacting to something. I'm very dominant in a reactionary state, but I'm not naturally dominant. Um, and then I am the most anti-cautious person you could imagine. Like, I'm not a bean counter. Fine with I'm a risk, which is probably why I'm a good entrepreneur. Uh, so yeah, we probably have some similarities there. Yeah. But yeah, this kind of reminded me of that to where there's like the— it is good to know like where you fit in the spectrum. And I think as you were talking about the idea of having like a challenger, but then also not being too like-minded with somebody, but having a sounding board. One thing I've learned as a community builder and being in communities over the past few years, like heavily, and I might need to try to flesh this out better, but I've found that it's really good to have people ahead of you who you're learning from, the mentors, the guides. Yeah. the guides, the coaches, the challengers, people beside you who you're very like-minded with, who are good sounding boards. You can kind of vent to them but not go too negative, but also learn as they're learning their stuff. But then I found the missing piece to this that really helps is to have people behind you that want to get to where you are, because that builds your feeling of confidence and just being a helper. And it can also get you out of the imposter syndrome when you feel like— when you realize that, wow, I know way more than I thought I did because there's all these these people who don't know what I even know early on. So, yeah, those people like ahead of you, or I hate to say like above you, it's not like that, but it's like they're ahead of you, they're beside you, and they're behind you. Like, it really is a healthy dynamic to have that in the sense of like community to help with this.

I love that. That's a really great call-out because I think there's a level of, you know, there's like this ecosystem in community where you're learning, you're also teaching, And then you're also supporting. So like you're giving, you're taking, and then you're like just beside. Like sometimes just having someone's presence in your life, they don't even have to say anything, means something. So I love how you, you explain the, like the ahead, the beside, and the behind, because I think that's a great representation of that.

Well, and I've just seen it play out over the years with different businesses. And even like, I remember when I first got into websites, I was helping out with a local church. I used to be a drummer. for the, for the band, like the worship band.

Oh, wow.

And, uh, when I got into doing websites, I kind of got into the office of the church a little bit and saw, um, what that setup looked like. And one thing I realized is that the pastor at the time, great guy, super nice guy, but one of his downfalls is he just had a bunch of yes-men, like a bunch of yes people saying, like, really building up his decisions. He did not take constructive criticism well, and he did not have any challengers saying, like, Like that really pushed back on a lot of things. And I think that ultimately hurt. And I've seen that with businesses too, where the CEO has a bunch of people that do everything they say. They have nobody who is like coming in with a different point of view, which there's also— I mean, at some point when it comes to the hierarchy of a successful business, whatever that looks like, you do need to have somebody that just calls the shots and makes shit happen. But it doesn't mean that you don't have somebody—

Of course.

You need like a— heard it called like a balloon popper, somebody to pop the idea and be like, hey, Maybe this isn't a great idea and here's why. And then you can be like, oh shoot, yeah, I didn't think about that.

Correct.

So in a way, I found that I have a lot of— I've just had like good students who have said things sometimes that have kind of made me like, oh, okay. Like if I— if there's a trusted relationship there and they say something that they see or could be better or might be a little bit different, I'm very open to hear that as opposed to listening to somebody who I don't even know who they are. They left a negative review, you know, like it's going to be a different situation. Okay.

I'm so glad that you brought this up because, and I think I'm remembering this from the first time that we recorded, is that weigh rejection and feedback differently. Not all feedback or rejection needs to be weighed the same. So like you just said, if someone leaves a negative review or they say something about me, I don't even know them and there's no relationship there, then it's like, okay, I'm going to take that with a grain of salt. And, you know, depending on what it is, I might either laugh it off or be like, huh, I can objectively look at that. And they gave me feedback on this workbook. Okay. You know, all right. But if it's a client that I've been working with for a year, let's say, and they give me feedback, I'm going to, like, really marinate on that. I might even journal through it and really see, okay, based on this feedback, how do I want to proceed? Because it's more meaningful because it's it's from a relationship, and I think that you know in in some rejection it's usually at least in jobs and with clients it's actually quite transactional. Like relational rejection and transactional rejection are also different experiences. If you're my friend and we have a relationship, or you're a client, a long-term client. And there's a relationship built there. There's a foundation of like, if you were to reject me, there's different like layers of emotion there.

Like trust. Like if trust is a foundational part. Yeah. Yeah.

But then if it's a transactional rejection where, you know, we had a great consult call as a coaching client, but it wasn't a good fit, it's like, okay, how could I learn from that? All right. But I'm not going to like take that too deep, per se. You know, I think there's kind of like different ways that we weigh out rejection.

That's a good point. And I don't want to take this right to a dark, like, relationship spot, but I would imagine it's the same with like being rejected when you're trying to date somebody versus being rejected like in a divorce situation of like a husband or wife for like 10 years. I imagine like that's probably a real-world personality example of like why that Yeah. That hits so much deeper, uh, for all the obvious reasons. But, um, I mean, the same thing like business. Um, if I were like, if I did a proposal for somebody I just met with a business and they felt like it wasn't a good fit, it wouldn't sting that bad. Even in the case earlier, like the example I used, yeah, it stung a little bit, but not, not a big deal. Now, if I had a client for 10 years who was one of my best clients and they moved on to a different web developer, gut-wrenching. You know, knife to the chest kind of situation. Yeah. That is a whole different level of rejection pain, even in the business world.

Yeah. And I hope that as you're listening and Josh and I are talking about this, it might also give you kind of a barometer, if you will, of like, okay, how do I want to weigh this rejection? A prospect told me no. Okay. That's fine. Like looking at the trust and the length of a relationship. I think that can also help us and give us clarity on like, how deep does this really need to cut me? Does it need to cut me at all? You know?

Yeah. And a little bit ago you mentioned like advice and opinions. Same thing with that. It's really good to have that barometer when it comes to people giving you advice and opinions. Because if though, if the advice and opinions come from somebody trusted who is, like I mentioned, kind of like the guide or a mentor to you, then I would be very vigilant towards that. Doesn't mean you have to do everything they say, but I would probably take that very very seriously and give it much more thought and a deep look rather than like your aunt who doesn't know anything about business and has never had a business says, hey, Josh, you should do this.

Or your neighbor who like, yeah, like, you still love your aunt, but you're not going to listen to her, take her advice on your business because she's not where you're trying to go.

Exactly. Exactly. And the experience may be different, even if people are well-meaning. It's funny, I was just on a podcast yesterday as an interviewee, and we talked a lot about this, about like family member advice and opinions in business and how dangerous that can be, both with ideas that plant seeds and also just the negativity that can come around with that.

Yeah.

But yeah, like that is— it's a really good point because you do similarly, just like you have to separate yourself from your business, you have to separate Like what your mind— what you're allowing your mind to take in and internalize. Because the reality is you're going to get all sorts of messages, all sorts of mixed messages, and you're gonna get opinions and advice from people who are qualified and not so qualified. So you do have to— and maybe it's just a muscle you build over time, but I'm very quick now to either end conversations really fast if somebody's giving me advice that I know is just not gonna help, or I just try to avoid it altogether. It's one reason I don't talk about business much with my family and like my neighbors and stuff, because I just don't know too many people who are in this world, in the physical world, which is why I like hanging out online so much now.

So true. No, I think that's really great advice. Um, this kind of goes back to boundaries again, is, is having boundaries. Like you said, I end a conversation quickly if it comes up, or I just don't really go there at all. And that's a boundary that you have placed where like in this relationship, I'm not going to come to you with business questions or what's going on in my business because I recognize it's not quite relevant. And so that's a boundary. And also when it comes to social media and coaches, there's so much content. YouTube, I mean, you can take a course on anything now. There's so much advice and so much information out there. Also, you need to have kind of your like bullshit meter on. Like you have to have a filter of who do I want to listen to? Who do I want to follow? And be really intentional about that. Because if you are just opening up your whole mindset to what the internet has to say about your design business, your, you know, clothing brand, like whatever it is, you're gonna start to lose a sense of one, your originality, and two, your ability to make clear choices for yourself. Because when you open yourself up to so much information, it starts to break down self-trust. trust because you aren't— you're not really quite sure on your own voice anymore because you're listening to so many other voices.

And I think when it comes to taking advice and opinions and coaching in the online world, one thing that I've learned that's really important to remember is that in most all cases, it's not that somebody is saying the right way to do something or the only way. It's just a way to do something. For example, As a, like somebody who, like I've produced hundreds of podcast episodes, hundreds of course videos inside my courses, hundreds of tutorials. I try to make sure everyone knows I am not telling you, because I have, I've had seen a few comments where it's like, this guy is, you know, this guy's— luckily I very rarely get any sort of hate or anything, but some of the comments I've seen have just been like, this guy's a sham or something like that. Very rarely. Usually it's on like a YouTube comment or something. Or some— or something like that. But what I've learned is that, number one, that doesn't affect me at all because it's not a relationship with that person, or it's probably a bot or a troll. But in a lot of cases, I know what I am saying is not the only way to do something or the right way to do something.

Right.

Like getting clients. If I share my practices on getting clients, I am not saying everybody, these— this is the right way to get clients. This is This is just my recommendation. This is what worked for me. It's a way to get clients. So I think that's really, really important to remember the advice that you see. You do have to take it and make it your own because it is not the only way to do something. It is a way to do something. And it may or may not work depending on the variables of the person who's like taking it in. Like what worked for me to get clients may not be the best way for everybody. Um, and there's a lot of people who get clients in ways that I would never do. So I don't know, I just wanted to share that because I think it's a really important message when it comes to taking advice and opinions.

Yeah, I agree. And I think—

Which could lead to rejection, right? Yeah, because like if you, if you try to get clients, like if somebody who hates podcasting starts a podcast to get clients, like it's probably not going to work out well and you may get rejected a lot.

Yeah, it's not organic to you. It's something that feels like I'm forcing this. And I think that's That's where your inner knowing, which is your intuition, not to get too woo-woo with you, but like, listen to your intuition. If your intuition says, I don't want to make YouTube videos, I don't like that, I don't want to video edit, I don't want to film, that is not something I'm interested in. And then you try to make yourself do YouTube videos because someone said you need to. It's like, well, that's not going to end up being something that you enjoy or that's organic. So I think ego Also plays a role in this conversation. I love that you said, "I recognize that my way is not the only way, and it's not necessarily the right way." Being able to recognize that and have that awareness has low ego, like and rejection and ego tend to really flare up together. When I'm rejected, my ego gets really big, and it's like, but don't you see? You know all the ways that I'm better, right?

Right.

Perfect, whatever the ego says about us, or the ego takes a hit. Oh, we're worthless. We don't have any value. We're never going to make it in this world. So, having a healthy barometer of where your ego is when rejection or feedback or opinion comes in is really helpful. So, notice that big reaction when you get that feedback and be like, okay, what's my ego doing right now? Is she flaring her big head? Is she in a healthy state? Is she bringing me down? And that can also help if you separate your ego from yourself. You can also kind of recognize like, okay, my— what's my ego doing over there? Instead of like, oh, what am I doing? It's what role is my ego playing in my reaction?

Hmm.

And then I can kind of have this very logical way of assessing. And that also is a way that I'm like able to self-regulate during a rejection experience.

That's a great point. I was going to ask you as a final question to put a cap on this is like, what is your favorite boundary? I don't know, is ego your favorite boundary or do you have maybe a favorite boundary that might be your favorite? And actually, before we get to your final thought, Alexis, where would you like people to go to connect with you? Of course, we'll have your website, alexisteichmiller.com, linked, which is Deeper Life. Deeper Life is the brand, but it's under your personal URL.

Right? That is correct. Yes. Um, you can follow me there. You can, if you are interested in career coaching, you can always book a free consult call with me. Um, and in terms of connecting with me online, you can do that at Instagram @AlexisTeichmiller, or you can follow both of my podcasts, The Deeper Life Podcast or The In Between Podcast.

And my goodness, you guys, if you're using Circle and you're interested in any sort of partnership with them, I can't recommend enough.

Please.

To DM Alexis about getting in touch with that because, yeah, when you came on board and I was— I started like I committed to Circle 100% as the tool for my community, my coaching, and my courses. When you came on board and we talked through what you guys are up to, yeah, it got me super pumped. I think we both jived on that call and realized my business was a good fit for Circle and Circle is a great fit for me. So a win-win case study. But yes, Alexis, So, we'll make sure we have all that linked in the show notes. Your final favorite boundary, what would you say that is? And it doesn't have to be the absolute, like, number one best one, but maybe just one that really resonates with you or has been super helpful.

Yeah, I love this. I would say my favorite boundary is recognizing that I get to decide how people make me feel about myself.

Ooh. That's good.

The boundary that I put in place there is I am recognizing someone's intentions or someone's communication style or their tone towards me. And then, I get to decide how and what that says about me. And, a very real example is if someone, let's say, doesn't like the way that I show up online and they're a friend or a family member in person. And they're like, ah, when you share that, that makes me feel really uncomfortable. I'm like, okay, thank you for sharing. But what I could do in that situation is I could say, oh my gosh, like, they're so right and I shouldn't really share or be vulnerable online. And, you know, maybe I should just tone it down or, you know, maybe I should just delete my entire account. Like, But I get to decide what someone's thoughts, opinions, feelings dictate for me. And that's a really important boundary.

That is such a great boundary. It kind of reminds me of the quote, what happens to you is not nearly as important as how you respond.

Correct.

And when it comes to the idea of rejection, that's great.

Yeah.

That's a perfect cap on this conversation because it's like when you head into like a proposal or whatever the situation is, or a partnership that you hope works out, it's like, no matter what happens, I'm not personally going to be devastated by this. Like there, there's a boundary there of, yeah, like you can learn from it if it's justified. Um, you can take from it or you can just say, all right, sorry it didn't work out for you. Not personal. Come back when you're ready to have a budget or you have the price, you know? So, ah, such a good point, Alexis. Thank you for sharing that. That's, that's good stuff. Um, yeah, I've got like 10 different clips I need to figure out what we want to feature here because, uh, we're featuring a clip now of the, of the interview before every episode. So thanks for, uh, making my to-do list a little bigger, Alexis. Had an absolute blast. Second conversation, first posted episode. I don't think this will be the last one. Thank you so much for your time.

You're welcome. Thank you for all the work that you do in this world, and thank you for having me on. It's been a true joy and a highlight of my Oh, well, we're gonna end it on a high note.

Thanks, Alexis. Talk soon. Ah, clip city, clip city, that interview. Like, honestly, I had a hard time figuring out what I wanted to feature as the little 1-minute, uh, clip and snippet for her because Alexis just has so many good thoughts on the subject of handling negative feedback, rejection, and separating boundaries boundaries, business from personal. So I hope you enjoyed this chat as much as I did. Let me know your takeaway. I, if you have like one big takeaway, leave a comment at joshhall.co/263. I do read all podcast comments and try to respond to all of them. Uh, additionally, if you are liking the podcast, please consider leaving a review. If you listen on Apple, uh, actually you can just go to joshhall.co/podcastreviews, uh, or podcast review, which will, uh, give you, uh, all the Links to where you listen, to where you could leave your review. It really make the world of difference for me. I love reading the reviews. It helps grow the show. And to connect with Alexis, make sure you go to her website at alexistychmiller.com. We will have that linked where I just mentioned to head to the show notes for this episode, joshhall.co/263. She's very active on Instagram and some other places, so you can get connected with her socials there. Again, alexistychmiller.com. She is the host of the Deeper Life podcast, which I recommend checking out if you dug Alexis and dug her style. If you are not using Circle yet for membership sites, I recommend it. I'm loving it. And if you would like to, you can just DM me or, uh, send me an email, josh@joshhall.co, and I will personally intro you to Alexis if you're interested in checking out Circle. And with that, I hope you enjoyed this one. Here's to more confidence and, uh, just It's that muscle that you build and getting used to hearing no and not letting it affect you oh so deeply. So with that in mind, I hope you have an awesome rest of the week. Here's to your next proposal working out. And if it doesn't work out, now you're good. You're good to go. Keep on chugging. All right, friends. See you on the next one.