Getting SEO Buy-in: Learn How to Get SEO Resources and Support

Getting SEO buy-in. If you're an SEO specialist with a little bit of experience, you know that this is one of the harder things to execute whatever you're recommending. So in order to tackle this particular topic, I have invited a couple of people who have a wealth of experience to share about how to minimize these challenges. On one hand, I have Petra Krisch. She's an independent solutions consultant. How are you?

I'm good. Thank you. Thanks for having me on this. I'm really excited to talk about this.

Thank you for joining. On the other hand, I have Tom, not Will, Critchlow, independent consultant and founder of the SEO MBA.

Hello, Tom.

How are you?

Hi, good morning. Thanks for having me here.

No, thank you both for coming. I'm so excited to be able to talk and learn from you today about this particular topic. But before starting our conversation, I want to thank Content King. Content King is our today's sponsor, is that tool that you want to configure in order to identify when something has gone to hell with your SEO. If they have changed the canonical tags, if they have eliminated all of a sudden title tags, if they have blocked everything through your robots.txt, this is a tool that you want to have. So go ahead and take a look at Content King. You have the link here below. And now we're ready to start our today's conversation about getting SEO buy-in. So SEO buy-in, I think that in general there is this understanding that it's something important. If you're working in a bigger organization, whether in-house or as an agency consultant or independent consultant to an external client, there is this challenge about getting the support that you need, the resources that you need, with the flexibility that you need, with the time constraints that you have in order to make things happen and achieve the results that you want, the goals that you want. So we know that is important, but why it is also so difficult? I believe that it also like tends to be more difficult when you are not part of the organization as an employee. But in general, I would like to hear from you what you have seen those scenarios in which there are more challenges to get buy-in.

I think that one of the primary reasons that it's hard to get buy-in is that SEO is complex. So it's really hard to nail down a specific individual tactic or work stream or effort that really moves the needle, right? Most businesses, once they're a little bit mature, it's not so simple as saying, hey, let's add some title tags and we know traffic is gonna go up, right? Or doing something simple. It's a kind of a multifaceted work stream requiring different teams across content, products, PR, technical engineering, and so on. And it takes a long time. doesn't always happen overnight. And so I think that getting buy-in for this kind of work is hard, right? It's really hard to convince a senior executive that we have to do lots of different things over a long period of time before we see results. That's just a tough sell in business.

I love that. And I think my comments will really add to that because the complexity is always there and there are things like educating the business and things like that that can help with that complexity. But there is really another element of buy-in. Which is, I think is kind of uncomfortable for SEOs because as SEOs, we, we really like data. We like logic and, you know, we put together those business cases and they still don't get buy-in many, many times. And that's because when we are talking about buy-in, we are talking about people selling something, selling an idea to people. And that will always have the elements of how those people feel about what you're suggesting. Do they feel comfortable with your logic? Do they understand it? And again, those emotions attached to buy-in. Which I think makes it very, very challenging within SEO where we find it really comfortable to build those business cases, build on the data, but then this is a really different aspect of adding to that and explaining that in a way not to even talk about how, you know, there are different personality types we are talking to. There are different people we are talking to and each of them will have a different way of understanding what we are suggesting.

So we actually always need to take I believe that this is something that any SEO can relate to because even if you're working with a small business, with a local shop, right? The buying issues have to do with resources. There are not that many resources available. Then when you work at the enterprise level, you have a lot of resources, but a lot of bureaucracy in order to get those resources. And more than the upper management approval, you also need to get the alignment and approval from the other areas that you don't have a direct influence, but you need to rely on them for execution. So, there's this additional layer of complexity, let's say. And you have already mentioned something that I believe is fundamental, the understanding of the business, how to communicate what is actually needed, and to show the potential impact and importance, even if there's this level of uncertainty with SEO that we need to be honest about and set the expectations in a correct way, and that we cannot show the value right away. What would you say that given all these scenarios are some of the most common mistakes that you see people do when trying to get buy-in? For example, one of the things that I can think of is to not really understanding what terms to speak depending on the different audiences, right? At the C-level, they couldn't understand or care less about crawlability or indexability, even if it is like a critical issue and you're blocking your whole website through the robots.txt and it's like a little thing to change and it will definitely change the performance of the website. But you need to be able to communicate and to inform about those in a way that will actually connect with what they understand and they care about and with their goals. And that has to do more with business and revenue than to technicalities on one hand. And then on the other hand, I believe that we still think a lot on going through deliverables that we need to somehow provide without thinking if they actually do the job. So for example, about SEO reporting, people underuse reports. Why do you send a report that is pretty much a screenshot of a dashboard? That first they don't understand because it's full of KPIs that are quite technical, not really connecting with the actual goals. Why, when you show that the goals are not being achieved, you don't explain the why? Why you don't explain the cause and why you don't use that opportunity to get more resources to actually change the trend and to fix those issues and achieve results? So, I believe that there are a lot of these scenarios too. in which we should be able to add this layer of communication or information to make things happen, to push for our needs that we completely misuse or not leverage as we should.

I'm really glad you mentioned reporting, Aleyda. I think there's a big problem with a lot of reporting, which is that you only report on the outcomes. Pretty much every single SEO report I see basically talks about traffic and revenue, right? Which are all kind of lagging measures of success, right? These are the outcomes of having done good SEO or done the things that we wanna do. And with SEO in particular, that can be quite a long lag, right? The success that we see in this month could have been from work 6 months previously. And so I think it's really important to try and connect the things that you report on every week or every month to the things that happen later, like traffic and revenue. And so there's a great term for this called input metrics, which Amazon famously reports on quite Religiously inside their organization, which is really just saying report on the things that you're doing, not just the things that produce results. And so this could be like number of pieces of content produced, it could be number of title tags rewritten, it could be number of product pages live, all of the things that we think input into results further down the line. And when you start to do that, what's interesting is that you start to create the reporting framework not just as a way to measure results, but also as a way to educate people. Because every time somebody looks at the report, they're basically looking at and saying, oh, I see the more content we make, the better our SEO does, or the more product pages we have live, the more our traffic goes up into the right. And so they start to create the link, the causal link between what you do on one hand and results on the other hand. Because if we just report on results, it's such a, like we mentioned, a complex discipline. It could have been links, it could have been content, it could have been all kinds of things. And so it's really important to try and control, in a sense, control the SEO down to things that we are actively doing. And this is also the link back to getting budget, like you mentioned, right? If we are not clear about what we want to actually do for SEO, if we only focus on the traffic and the revenue opportunities, then nobody's gonna understand how to give SEO budget, right? Because it's just a black box. It's like, okay, well we can, we have this traffic and revenue opportunity, but what, what do we have to do to get there? And so it's really useful to try and work backwards from that all the way to, well, these are the things we want to do, this is how much it's gonna cost, and then we believe that will get to the traffic and revenue.

More from a, I guess, people or personal perspective, as in like from the personal element of it, how you get buy-in and what are the pitfalls is, first of all, I think is that we tend to accept fake buy-in. So whether you're a consultant or in-house or agency, you've been hired to do a job. So you will get some sort of yes to be able to do something, but whether that's, whether that yes is with commitment or without, that's, that makes a huge difference. And commitment is crucial. And because, you know, there is our confirmation bias and our ego, and we really want to do something, often we just, as soon as we get yes, we're like, okay, we are rolling with this plan, we are implementing these changes, but then the changes will take ages, we won't get the tickets signed off on time, because there is no real commitment from the business behind that actual yes. And that drives us into this loop where, as people, we get tired, we just push out reports. And those are the moments where we really need to take a step back and focus on like, okay, was there actual commitment behind this? And that can happen with so many challenges when it comes to buy-in.

I love that you mentioned this.

I really love that phrase, the fake buy-in. I've definitely, definitely encountered that.

I love it too, because I, unfortunately, I have faced it in different ways also as an SEO specialist. I think that especially younger SEOs, they see that there's a big company hiring and then they are shocked to find whenever they are hired and they are into the job, it's like, Why'd you hire me if there was not going to be all of the resources available? And that is why it's important that we always double check and validate that. And also when, and I understand that it's a little bit tricky when you work for a bigger agency, when you don't have that influence, but if you do have a little bit of an influence, I believe that good SEO buy-in comes with good client fit for the service that you provide at the end of the day, right? So I will highlight that if it is doable for you to have that type of influence or role. Validation, it will be fundamental, right?

I always like to say that the buy-in starts in the sales process. This is especially true for consulting work and agency work and hiring even, but the interview role, like you said, it's really important. You can tease out a lot about a business, about what their resources are and what they really believe if you ask the right questions and you structure the project in the right way. One of the things that I always like to do in the sales process is kind of throw out like a hypothetical to a client. To be like, well, let's say we need to make 1,000 pieces of content. Well, how would that work?

Right?

I'm trying to get a little bit more specific than, do you have resources? Right? I'm thinking, do you have resources? Every client is pretty much gonna be like, yeah, we have some kind of resources, we'll figure it out. But if you start to get a little bit more specific, like, oh, well what if I wanted to redesign this section of the site? Or what if I wanted to make 1,000 pieces of content? If you make it a little bit more real, I find that often clients will start to break down and start to be like, oh yeah, actually not quite sure how we do that. So you can start to see those red flags. And then what I like to do in my work is just acknowledge that in the way that you structure the contract, right? So if I'm a consultant coming into an organization, I might say, okay, well I'm gonna bring in an editorial team myself then, or I'm going to include as part of my project, we're gonna find a development partner to do some freelance work, right? Or just trying to kind of work around the problem in a way that shows that we recognize the reality of the constraints. 'Cause I think the reality of the constraints versus what clients will tell you when you first meet them isn't always the same thing.

Something super important to do right at the beginning. That is why I want to ask you now, what are the steps usually and at what time of the SEO processes you will tend to recommend SEOs to bring them and to execute them to minimize these sort of issues?

So I think you've already mentioned so many aspects that really help define these steps. And things like understanding the process and understanding the stakeholders is certainly one of them, because I think what you've been talking about before as well is like, you might get commitment, but who is that commitment coming from? So understanding that process, and I love the example from Tom on the hypothetical situation, because sometimes you ask someone about the process and their description might be something that sounds great. That's what they want it to be like, but it's broken. Brilliant to ask like actual examples of like, how is that content team working? It's something I often ask the editorial team as well. Like how do they currently publish content? So instead of me bringing my own process, I'm trying to see where things could fit in nicely there, because even if I bring on resources from an editorial team, do they have brand guidelines and tone of voice? And what's the process of actually reviewing that content or actually allowing us to publish that content? Because that will be different for different businesses. As well. So I would say this, the steps are always understanding this process and the different stakeholders who needs to be involved and when they need to be involved. And then understanding the business maturity, I think is another crucial element. And there are a number of maturity analysis out there, which I think is really helpful if you actually use something to write this down, because otherwise you will miss questions, you will miss out on certain pieces of information and they can be just a really nice framework to, to ask those questions, to ask to be connected to certain people. Because within this buying, within this sales process, it's a really good opportunity to get to know some of those crucial stakeholders who can essentially become blockers in the process. And, and you're right, you can, you can get to a certain level, you can work so hard, and then some— for something to not get implemented because, I don't know, IT says no, we're absolutely not putting up a subdomain with this call content that you've worked on for 3 months because no one asked this specific person who has the final sign-off or something like that. So that can absolutely happen. And I think that's why, yeah, understanding the process, understanding the stakeholders, understanding the business maturity are certainly great steps to start with.

I also think that you need to understand the cadence of the organization. If you think about the example you gave earlier, like the report, right, you work for 3 or 4 months on and then you hand it to the client. If you look at a typical kind of SEO set of recommendations from an agency or a consultant, there's usually about 2 years of roadmap in there. There's just a ton of stuff, right? We should fix this, we should do that. There's an opportunity over here, blah, blah, blah. And so much of that stuff that you're recommending a client do is outside of their existing roadmap. It's outside of their existing budgets, right? So you look at like the product team, the product team has an annual planning cadence, right? Where they say, this is our budget for the year. These are the things we wanna get done. And if you come in mid-cycle, you come in in the middle of the year and say, hey, I've got all this extra work to do. You can't just make that happen. You can't just magic that outta thin air, right? Certainly not for big businesses, which are, have this kind of strict budget cadence. And so it's really important to try and understand, okay, well what is the cycle, right? When do yearly budgets get allocated? How do we get some of these bigger items onto the roadmap? And that could happen annually, it could happen quarterly. Again, depends on the size of the business and the size of the budget. budget, but it's really important to understand that just because we can't get it done now doesn't mean that the business can't do it at all. I think understanding that distinction really helps you start to understand, well, where is the business at? To your point, Petra, about the maturity, what do they understand? What do we need to know? What do we need to put together for a business case?

You just remind me of something that I like to do, and I believe that if it is doable, I will highly, highly recommend SEO to-dos in order to set that, let's say, layer of understanding with other areas, because even if you end up getting buy-in from your boss, who's also the boss of the development department or content department, if they are not really into supporting you, they will find a way to not support you, right? So I believe that it is fundamental that we have this alignment and understanding and coordination. Of course, understanding the already existing roadmap and what they are already doing and for what purpose and what are their goals is critical. Then on the other hand, what I have found also to be useful is that whenever I'm providing those initial SEO recommendations and sharing the insights of the findings and the existing gap and the actions to take in order to achieve the results, I use that to set the understanding of SEO, how SEO should be also something positive for their area. If it is their content, it will help them to achieve also their content goals. Because their content is going to be viewed by more people and achieve in a better way the results that they want. To get this evangelization layer, I like to do a little bit of like little webinars with the teams that are expected to be involved to take that opportunity. So, from the understanding that I have of what they're already doing, the roadmap, how I can help them to achieve those goals and try to slip in that way, not You help me, but I will help you and let's help each other type of conversation going right from the start.

About the alignment, because I think it's so important when you work, especially in big organizations. What I find so counterintuitive in some ways is that there is no SEO strategy, right? Like we talk about SEO strategy, right, as being a thing. And as SEO practitioners, we obviously care about the SEO roadmap and so on. But if you work in a big organization, there is no SEO strategy. There's a product strategy and there's a marketing strategy, right? There are product teams and marketing teams and SEO is typically simply a subcomponent of their strategy, right? And so it's really important to start thinking about, well, how do we make sure that whatever we are recommending, whether it's content, technical, et cetera, et cetera, how does that ladder up to things that that team really cares about, right? You mentioned like the product team will have a big budget that they'll get approval for every year. They'll have a strategy that has core pillars. There'll be 4 things they're trying to do for the year or 3 big things they're trying to do for the year. And it's so important to try and align what we want to get done back to those strategies, right? Back to those big strategies that our work simply sits inside of. Because if it isn't, it's just gonna be so much harder to get budget and buy-in and resources. It's really quite remarkable once you, I find when you're younger in your career, I think you do this accidentally. Like you kind of stumble upon a recommendation that happens to align with one of the things the company really wants to get done anyway. And it just moves so much faster and so much easier, right? But the flip side of that, and this is again something that's kind of counterintuitive, is we talked a lot about getting budget and getting buy-in, but most of the time actually we're talking about getting budget and buy-in for other teams, right? Like actually the, we don't need more SEO resources, right? Typically, right? We're not asking for more headcount in the SEO team, although that can also be useful. But most of the budget that we're asking for is gonna come in the form of product resources, engineering resources, and content resources, right? We need resources in those teams in order to see our results. And that's an interesting dynamic where we're not really advocating for our own resources, right? We're not necessarily advocating for our own teams. We're advocating resources on other people's teams. And so again, because of that, we really need to understand what that part of the organization looks and feels like. How many people do they have? What kind of people are they advocating for? What's on their roadmap, right? We really need to understand what's going on. before we can just drop in and say we need 2 more engineers or we need more resources to do X, Y, and Z. So again, to go all the way back to Petra's point at the beginning, it's such an interpersonal and kind of human dynamic at the end of the day because we need those teams and those individuals to work with us, right? We need to understand like how many sprints is it gonna take or what kind of things are you working on or what's important to your organization?

That kind of consensus building and relationship building is just at the foundation of This is probably also useful for SEOs who are just starting because a lot of the things that we are talking about might sound like, okay, if I'm an SEO manager and if I'm, you know, if I'm putting together those business cases, then obviously these are really useful. But I think these are really useful at any stage, whether you're just starting in SEO or not, because even like, I think when you come in as an SEO executive to a business, a lot of times what will happen is that you will be assigned maybe tasks. That you have to get done because you have to provide content briefs or you have to provide justification and user stories to the product team. It's really crucial that even at that stage, you show that critical thinking that you can understand by stepping back and asking, okay, why are we doing this? How is it going to be used? You're also able to ask those questions and see the bigger picture and see how your work will fit into that puzzle.

If you want to get to a director or a VP role. It's not even enough to know technical SEO, content SEO, and all the SEO pieces. You actually need to understand product development, marketing, brand strategy, like not deeply, right? Not to be a practitioner necessarily, but you can't just sit in your silo, right? Especially if you want those senior roles. There's just a kind of natural limit that you hit if you are not able to comfortably work across different parts of the business. And that's, I think that's true in every discipline, but I think it's especially true in SEO. Where, like we mentioned, the whole job is trying to get other teams to do things for you.

Which are the resources, the guides, the tools that you will recommend SEOs to take a look at in order to develop more these skills?

I'll put my hand up and say I run the SEO MBA, which, I mean, the entire reason the SEO MBA exists is to try and help SEO professionals develop more of these kind of skills, business communication, leadership skills, the foundation of getting those more senior roles. And that's the whole reason it exists. So would love for you to check it out. The SEO MBA has online courses that you can pay for, but also has a free newsletter. I'm also, I really really love this website, communcog.com. It's run, written by this guy Cedric, and has nothing to do with SEO specifically, but is a really, really great set of writing about how business works at various things. And I think it's incredibly eye-opening to take a look at it from a very different perspective. That's where I first kind of really got tuned into things like input metrics and the various ways of kind of connecting business inputs to business outputs and trying to just, just be a better operator all around. So I think Common Cog is a great resource. Again, he has a lot of free content and then there's like a paid membership. tier as well. But yeah, those are some of my go-tos.

I've got a couple of free resources as well on my website. So I had a talk I've done at Moscone last year, which has a recording on YouTube. So you can find that if you go to the website. And then I've written an article as well about this fake buying and lack of commitment process as well, specifically. So hopefully people would find that useful to understand this cycle of sort of bad behaviors that you can get into. I've also got a free maturity matrix. that you can use to ask those questions, which I've done in collaboration with Tor Gray as well. But another thing I would add is that usually the resources here are not necessarily SEO specific because of those interpersonal skills needed. And I think again, any sort of maturity matrix that you can find, anything in general about interpersonal skills will be helpful here. And one thing I always like to advocate for, if you've never done it, do personality tests because it's just incredibly useful to understand a bit more on how you communicate, how you interact with people, and it will hopefully open your eyes to that as well, that everyone is different and they might communicate with you because of different ways. So you can, you can start thinking about it a bit differently in terms of how you're interacting, how you're trying to convince board members, stakeholders about your projects and your strategy.

I love those recommendations. There's also this very useful newsletter that I think that will be relevant to recommend here too, the SEO Sprint from Adam Gann. He also has an online course to start thinking like an SEO product manager. Definitely take a look at that. The free resources also that he has developed are quite useful to better communicate, especially with the development teams in this particular case and enhance that part of our understanding in SEO. There is this book that I believe that could be useful here, Product-Led SEO from Eli Schwartz too, where he speaks about this a little bit too. So to start wrapping up, I want to ask you for a last tip. Something that you haven't mentioned before and that you think that will be useful for our audience in this particular topic?

There is a crucial element on the word success and how do you define that success? Because often people think, oh, someone will give me this one tip that will help me get to that yes and to that commitment all the time, but that's just not going to happen. So I think the way how we need to define success here is that there will be less wasted effort. Less time and your resources and your energy wasted on some of these processes. So how you can optimize that is the crucial element. I would say one thing we haven't maybe mentioned yet is to start welcoming rejection. Start welcoming when you hear a no and start to really explore that no in terms of where it's coming from.

Trying to understand where the no is coming from is a really useful tip, whether it's coming from kind of the personality, the individual personality, or from the business or strategy misalignment, wherever it is. My best tip is, so if you're saying like, we should make the site faster, it's like, how much faster?

Right?

We should make content. How much content? Right? We should make, we should improve our product pages, improve them by how much? Right? And by forcing yourself to try and measure the input, right? Measure the thing directly that you ask them to get better at. You have a much better chance of actually getting the budget, the resources, and so on. But without that, it's kind of an empty recommendation. There are so many things in SEO, more links, more content, you know, faster websites. Like, yes, sure. Who doesn't want those things? But the devil is in the details, right? The devil is in, well, how much? And what you realize, what I realize in my career is as you start to ask that question, you start to realize how much you don't know. It's like, well, how many pieces of content are they currently making? Okay, what is the cost per piece of content? How many people are working on that? How long does it take them to make content? Before, without knowing those questions, you can't really make a recommendation, right? You can't make any kind of productive forward-looking statement. unless you really understand what's happening. My best advice is when you're making any kind of recommendations, ask yourself how much, right? Try and quantify the difference between where they are and where you want 'em to get to. Quantifying that rather than just saying make the site faster, right? You'll be seen as a more strategic, more senior, more effective role within the organization. Again, whether you're in-house or as a consultant, because you'll start to kind of grapple with the actual details, grappling with the real kind of texture of the business rather than just throwing out recommendations, which is like, Okay. Yeah, sure. Who doesn't want that?

Generic best practices, right? And at the end of the day, like any company hiring you, not for generic best practices that they can read on a guide or a course, but because they want something that is completely personalized, that takes their own business context and industry context into account. You mentioned something very important too, from a different angle about being specific and tangible. Not only to show that, well, you have a proper understanding and that your recommendations are actually accurate and cost-effective. At the end of the day, let's remember that what we want here is something that is ROI positive. So even if you think that they should be creating more content, if 1 million pieces are not going to generate benefits at the end of the day, that doesn't make sense, right? So Here, I would highly recommend that you think on one hand to start developing more different scenarios, forecast alternatives of, okay, you get this budget, you allocate these resources on these executions, and this will allow you to achieve X, which is what you want as a goal for this year or next 18 months. But you don't have resources, you have restrictions, and you don't implement X, but you can achieve something similar, 80% of it, by doing Y. And then you show that you don't need to say the also shallow, it depends, right? But that it depends on this and that. If you have these resources and implement this, this is what is achievable with this revenue and expected ROI. And if you don't, this is another alternative. But I believe that indeed the problem here is that we end up staying at a very generic level that it makes it very hard to understand beyond the technicalities of SEOs and makes it also very hard for us to get what we need to do stuff. And at the end of the day, it should show that whatever resources we ask is not for our own sakes, but to actually make the results happen and the goals.

Well, I was going to say, you mentioned like a business case, right? Like a revenue forecast. We haven't really talked about that much here, but it's a huge component of getting Getting buy-in, right, is building a model that says we're gonna spend this much and we're gonna get that much in return. I think SEOs are, on the one hand, we're so blessed that we have an abundance of revenue forecast data available to us, right? So we have search trends, we have search volumes, we have great information about market share, market size, revenue opportunities. And so we're very lucky in that sense compared to other teams. But we are very starved for resource costs, right? Because any kind of input cost comes from other teams. So we have to figure out how much of the input is gonna come from the product team, the content team, the editorial team, the marketing team, et cetera. And so when you talk about building a business model relative to other teams inside the organization, we're very lucky to have the strong, concrete, tangible information about opportunity, but it's very murky for us. very hard for us often to get a really accurate handle on how much they're gonna cost. And I think that's an area where again, that requires the stakeholder management alignment, socializing, getting to know the other teams and all of that stuff so that you can build a business case. It's such an important piece. And then the last thing I'll say about that, one of the mistakes I see SEOs make is because we have so much amazing data available to us, we have so many different tools, so many different data sources, we imagine that a business model has to be really concrete and watertight. And then what you realize when you work with other teams is that it's kind of all made up. Like, you go to like a brand marketing forecast, the data they're using for that kind of, their business case is so much more flimsy than so much of the data that we work with, but they're still able to do it. Same for a product team. You go to the product team and you say, well, how did you figure out that moving from this platform to that platform was gonna generate $50 million? And they're like, eh, we have some working out, But again, compared to a lot of the data that we use as a day-to-day as SEOs, it's much more flimsy. But because we work with such good data day in and day out, I think sometimes we get paralyzed trying to put that business case together. When you realize that the business case is in service of making a decision, we're not doing science here, right? The business case is in service of helping an executive team decide prioritization and resource allocation, right? And so it's really important to, yes, we should try and make an accurate model and a good business case. But at the same time, the purpose of that business case is to get the resource allocation, right? The purpose of that business case is not to measure the revenue opportunity down to the last cent. So I think it's important to be pragmatic when we're putting that together to really understand like, okay, we need a model that executives can understand. We need a model that is not too complicated, right? And we need something that will show Resources in and your revenue out.

Thank you for joining our today's session. If you liked today's episode, remember to like the video. Don't miss any episodes that are coming by subscribing to the channel. Thank you again, Petra and Tom. It was fantastic to speak with both of you. If you have seen, they have a wealth of know-how about this particular topic. Follow them on X, Slash Twitter and LinkedIn through their own websites. Thank you very much again. Until the next episode of Crawling Mondays. Bye-bye.

Bye.