#111 – Dr. Becky Kennedy on Why Great Leaders Stop Managing Feelings and Start Building Trust

Am I really feeling guilty or am I feeling something else? And I think in both of those situations, I'm actually just taking on someone else's distress and putting it in my body. And then I call it guilt, but really it's not my feeling in the first place. And so there's a very powerful exercise you can go through. And step one is just saying like, is this guilt? Am I acting in a way that's in line with my values? And if you say no, then good, it's guilt. Reflect on it. Think about what you wanna do differently. But if you're like, that's so weird, I am acting in a way that's in line with my values, then you could ask yourself, am I taking on someone else's feelings? Am I taking on my colleague's feelings about being upset about vacation? And this is where we really misunderstand empathy. You actually can't have empathy for someone if you're feeling their feelings for them, because then your intervention is actually not even based on their feelings. It's based on you trying to make yourself feel better. It's actually almost a selfish endeavor.

Welcome back. This is From Sharp to Grown Up. My name is Alisa Cohn, and today I'm thrilled to welcome Dr. Becky Kennedy to the podcast. Dr. Becky, as she's known on the internet, is a clinical psychologist, a parenting expert, and the bestselling author of Good Inside, a book that turns out to be just as powerful for leaders as it is for parents. I should know, I am not a parent and I love that book. We talk about why parenting is such good training for leadership and also why it's not your job to manage everyone's feelings. And why repairing after a misstep is much more important than being perfect. We went deep into her concept of sturdy leadership when you learn to show up with authority and empathy. And if you've ever frozen up in the face of a tough conversation, we get into the value of practice scripting and reps to help you sound like the leader you wanna be. Dr. Becky also shares how to deal with defensiveness at work, what to do when imposter syndrome kicks in, and how self-leadership is the foundation of leading anyone else. This one is packed with practical tools and powerful mindset shifts. So please enjoy my fantastic conversation with Dr. Becky Kennedy. Dr. Becky, welcome to the show. I'm so excited to have you.

So excited to be here.

Very thrilled. You're a psychologist, a parenting expert, and a bestselling author of Good Inside, which guides parents. To be honest with you, I read it. I am not a parent, but I found it to be an excellent handbook for for leadership. And honestly, I thought it was really a book about self-leadership. That's kind of where I came down, and that's why I thought it was so powerful. And I just want to jump into one of the concepts that I was in love with, that I wrote a LinkedIn post about, which is sturdy leadership. What is sturdy leadership, and why is that important? We'll talk about for parenting and then for managers.

Yeah, and the parallels— you really don't have to take a big leap. I mean, I actually think Good Inside is just simply a leadership approach. And if you think about parenting, parenting is leadership. It's getting the most out of the people in front of you. It's understanding yourself better. It's growing alongside everyone else, that's what a good CEO or manager does too. So it's kind of all the same principles. We're all humans interacting with other humans. And this concept of sturdy leadership, just to give you a little context, and I'll give a metaphor that I think describes it best. You know, I think in parenting and probably in the world, we've seen this massive overcorrection. A lot of us were raised in a generation where the predominant, quote, parenting leadership approach was kind of, You act out, you're being sent to your room. Like, we don't really care about your feelings. Feelings are soft. Go to your room, figure it out. Come out when you don't talk back to me. Come out when you don't have a meltdown about string cheese being broken in half, whatever it was. Your feelings don't matter. Correct your behavior. And I think we've seen this massive overcorrection to not only now do kids' feelings matter, but kids' feelings dictate parents' decisions. And I just wanna say, go on record, I think they're both equally dangerous approaches that do not help parents or children. And I think we've kind of seen it in kind of workplaces as well from like, I don't really care who's working for me and their feelings to, oh my goodness, there's a protest or someone has a feeling and all of a sudden it's dictating company policy, right? So it's very parallel. And I think what sturdy leadership is, something dare I say, that's in the middle of two extremes, which is usually the answer in my opinion. And it's a model where as a parent or as a leader, you get to embody your appropriate authority. That's important. People always cringe when I say authority, and I think that's just because we've seen so few models of authority without aggression. Good Inside is a model where a leader has authority without aggression, and they do have authority. I set boundaries and limits and key decisions, and then I very much see other people's feelings as real and important, but those feelings don't dictate my decisions, and my My decisions don't dictate their feelings. They're just both true. So sturdy leadership is a model where I can be connected to myself as a leader and be connected to someone else at the same time. And to me, the metaphor, because I love a good metaphor, that really brings sturdy leadership to light in the home or the workplace is this idea of a sturdy pilot. So if you imagine being on a plane as a passenger and there's a ton of turbulence and it's like pretty intense turbulence. And so everyone in the cabin is screaming. We're like really panicked. Okay. And then you can picture 3 announcements from a pilot that kind of mirrors the 2 models we've been given. And then the 3rd one will be the sturdy leader I think we all want. So let's go to the 1st one. The pilot comes on and just says, "Stop screaming back there. You're being ridiculous. You ruin everything. You're so dramatic. This isn't a big deal. Zip it." Okay? Now, as a passenger, I can just say, this actually doesn't calm me down. Maybe I'm scared in a moment 'cause the pilot seems upset with me,, but I'm also a little nervous. Does a pilot not even recognize the turbulence? Like, I actually feel more anxious. It's definitely not helpful. Okay, here's pilot number 2. It's the opposite. Okay everyone, it's really turbulent and I'm gonna open up the cockpit doors. Does anyone wanna fly the plane? I'm a little nervous. You're nervous. I'm nervous. We're all nervous together. And now, as you can imagine, I'm not even nervous about the turbulence anymore. I just can't believe this person's my pilot. I'm like, oh my goodness. Now I'm really panicked. So, Those are kind of the models of parenting we've been given. And here's what we hear from a sturdy pilot. Hey everyone, I hear you screaming. I get it. It's turbulent. And honestly, if you wanna scream around it, do your thing. I'm gonna get off the loudspeaker soon because I wanna tell you, I know what I'm doing. I've been here before. I am going to pilot us safely to our destination. And I'll see you on the ground. And I can still in this moment, I can feel a deep breath. Like, this is so weird. The turbulence remains, but I feel better. Like, oh, maybe it wasn't the turbulence that actually made me feel anxious in the first place as a passenger. It was turbulence in the absence of a sturdy leader. And as soon as that sturdy leader comes on, you actually can manage kind of the next number of minutes or hours of the flight. And so in that model, what a sturdy pilot is doing is they're seeing your reality as real for you, but they're not seeing your feelings as contagious. It doesn't enter the cockpit. They are able to stay kind of strong in their authority and leadership while staying connected to you at the same time.

I love that. I love— first of all, I love the metaphor because it's so clear, right? Like, who would want their pilot to any of those first two things, right? And yet you want to have confidence in the person who's leading, who's up front, who's in charge. If we take that to like a workplace dynamic, yeah, that like something's going wrong, like this meeting is going off the rails and great, you know, and I'm the one screwing it up, or this presentation is going off the rails or something. How do you think a sturdy leader would deal with an employee in that case?

Great. So let's take someone who— you're in a meeting and someone, I don't know, is presenting, but they're like really not doing a good job, or they're saying inappropriate things. We have that first model, like, stop talking, and if you don't, I'm not gonna give you lunch for a week, right? It actually becomes so absurd what we say to our kid when you imagine a manager saying it. You're like, that's pretty pathetic. Yeah. And then the second option would be saying, please stop, we don't say things like that in meetings, we don't do that, I'm gonna ask you again to stop. And everyone watching is like, but the person's not stopping, so is your only strategy to ask someone who's not stopping to stop? Like, that's also not effective right now. Look, I think the sturdy leader in that model would probably say something. It's probably easier if it's over Zoom, but we could do it in person. Let's say it's over Zoom. Hey, "Look, I've asked you to kind of stop. I'm gonna take over the meeting. This is awkward, but I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna mute you. We can talk about it after the meeting. I'm gonna take over the rest of it. I know you're trying your best. We'll figure it out later." Or if it's in person, "Hey, I'm asking you to stop, stop talking now. If you're not able to do that, I am just gonna end the meeting 'cause this isn't productive and we need to go in a different direction." And what's really important is so many times, and this is especially true in parenting, but probably true in workplace too, we know what we want to do as a leader. This meeting isn't productive. This person isn't doing a good job. My kid is jumping on the couch, even though they're jumping right near a glass table and it's just not safe. I need my kid to stop. And we do all these weird things where like for a kid, we're like, I'm gonna count to 5, or if you keep jumping, no dessert, right? And then we let ourselves get so frustrated and we end up yelling and acting out because actually we just didn't intervene based on our values and intuition and authority early enough. And actually in this model of sturdiness, when you inter— you actually intervene more quickly and you avoid the whole fallout that comes from kind of letting your frustration build up.

Yeah, I love that. You know, there's a concept from Difficult Conversations which is called silence or violence. It's like you hold it in, you hold it in, you hold it in, you're effective, and then you're like, I've told you to stop doing that, or whatever it comes from. And with everyone, that plays out at work all the time. All the time.

And I think another example, like, especially at work, like, let's say you have an employee, I don't know, they've worked there 2 days and they're like, I think I deserve a promotion and a raise. And you're like, okay, well Usually we don't do that after 2 days, but okay. Like, I think this model of sturdy leadership, even though it's kind of an absurd example, could be like, okay, well, tell me about that. Oh, well, I already think I'm doing work above, you know, what you hired me in at. And I also heard from other people that they're kind of doing the same job paying. Now, for whatever reason, let's say you don't think this is even something, you know, you want to entertain. What's really important, if you're a sturdy leader, you're not threatened by people having different opinions than you. At the end of the day, when we say to people in those moments, like, this is absurd, get outta my office, right? It's actually from a place of fragility that we can't hold the idea someone else thinks something differently. Okay, I don't have to get them to see it my exact way, and still I can hold a boundary. So I could hear, oh, that's really important. Look, I'm gonna take some notes. And let me tell you something, your salary and title aren't changing right now. I wrote down everything you said. You make some interesting points. Happy to check in with you in X amount of time so we can keep figuring this out together, right? So I can hear someone out, I can still hold a boundary, and I don't have to change my decision just because someone's upset about a situation if I don't happen to agree with it.

I, I love that. And I would even just say, you know, 2 days in a promotion, that's obviously like, you know, crazy, but like actually 2 years, that would be normal. Come to you in 2 years and I said it's time for me to have a promotion and you're thinking, no, I wasn't thinking that. By the way, as a leader, if you haven't been kind of communicating with your person over a 2-year period, they don't know what it takes to get promoted. Of course, that's another issue. But they come to you, they want to get promoted, and you would think like, well, that's ridiculous, that's absurd, go back to your office. Or do all the things that you just said, uh-huh, let's talk about it, I hear what you're saying, interesting, I'm not going to change my point of view. And that leads me to this other thing that people feel, which is guilt. They can hold it, they call it guilt. It's not really guilt. You've talked about this before on podcasts, and I want to spin this out because it's a notion of, first of all, I held the bad boundary And then they feel like, why do I always have to be the bad guy?

Right?

There's something there. And also they feel bad. And that is what gets in the way of like actually having to hold their boundary. So could you talk about that feeling that people feel when they have to express a boundary? Yeah.

And I think that's such a good starting point. Leaders have to set boundaries. Like you're inherently a leader because you're in a position of having to make a decision for someone or for an organization or a system like your family. Where you can see long-term benefit, even if there's short-term discomfort. That's kind of the essence of being a leader, right? No one's a leader if they're always optimizing for short-term comfort. So with your kids, the reason you're setting a boundary around screen time is actually because you think the long-term benefit is for them. Maybe you're setting a boundary in your workplace about the number of days you have to work from the office because you think for your particular organization that makes sense, or vacation days, whatever the policy might be. Right? And so then when we hold that boundary, often we do get pushback. We hear from people like, oh, but the vacation policy, whatever, whatever the policy is, people have feelings. And by the way, they have the right to have feelings. That's okay. And then we say to ourselves, like you're saying, I feel so guilty. I feel so guilty. I think we're bringing up like, is that guilt? So let's just define what guilt is, right? So to me, what guilt is, it's a feeling you have when you act out of alignment with your values. And it's a very important feeling. I wouldn't wish the absence of guilt on anyone because if you act out of alignment with your values— like I yelled at someone in a meeting, I can tell you that's not part of my value system at Good Inside. So I should feel guilty because that guilt is uncomfortable enough in your body that it makes you reflect after, ooh, why did I yell? What led to that? What could I do to repair? How can I do that differently? But so often what I hear from parents and leaders is they say, I feel guilty. And I say, okay, tell me about that. Yeah, I had to tell this person that this is our vacation policy. It's different than their old workplace. I feel so guilty. I'm like, okay, well, is upholding your vacation policy within your value system? It is. So then it's like, oh, well, whatever you're feeling, by the way, it's definitely uncomfortable, but it's inherently not guilt. And it leads to a different conversation. Well, What is it? And, and I think what it tends to be, and this could be true for any leader, I have found it's particularly true for women, is a lot of us were raised to look at other people's upset feelings as our responsibility, or we were raised where a lot of our value early on as a kid was kind of keeping everyone around us happy with us. We kind of became expert in like, what do I need to do so my dad doesn't get upset? What do I need to do so my mom feels included with, you know, me and my friends on the weekend, whatever it is. And so we became so expert at kind of looking at how other people feel and intervening in a way before things got hard to keep other people happy. And so if I come back to the situation at leadership, which is very similar to with a kid, when you say, hey, I'm gonna go out to dinner with my friends, for me it would be, dad's putting you to bed tonight. It is very much in my value system. To go out to dinner with my friends like once every number of weeks. And so when my kid's upset, am I really feeling guilty or am I feeling something else? And I think in both of those situations, I'm actually just taking on someone else's distress.

Hmm.

And putting it in my body. And then I call it guilt, but really it's not my feeling in the first place. And so there's a very powerful exercise you can go through. And step one is just saying like, is this guilt? Am I acting in a way that's in line with my values? And if you say no, then good. It's good. Reflect on it. Think about what you want to do differently. But if you're like, that's so weird, I am acting in a way that's in line with my values, then you could ask yourself, am I taking on someone else's feelings? Am I taking on my colleague's feelings about being upset about vacation? And this is where we really misunderstand empathy. You actually can't have empathy for someone if you're feeling their feelings for them, because then your intervention is actually not even based on their feelings. It's based on you trying to make yourself feel better. It's actually almost a selfish endeavor. When I say to my daughter who's upset that I'm going out to dinner, like, oh, come on, don't you want me to go out with friends? Whoa, weird. I'm looking for my child's permission. She's like, what is happening, Mom? Be an adult. Because I'm just trying to make myself feel better. Empathy in that situation would actually require me to not take on her feelings, because then I could say, you wish I wasn't going out Dinner. I get it. You wish I was putting you to bed. By the way, I'm still gonna go out to dinner because I can hold my boundary with her feelings. Same thing at work. Oh, what? This is your vacation policy? If you actually don't take on those feelings as your own and kind of give it back to person X, you can say to person X, oh, I get it. That's a big change from where you last worked. I actually understand that that's gonna really shift the way you think about, you know, planning for the year. This, it sounds like this is a surprise to you. I also have been in situations where probably didn't read something as closely as I should have. And then I feel surprised. And I just want to say to you, like, I know that feels awful. I believe you. I've been there too. That's empathy. And I actually can't do that if I'm taking on the person's feelings.

I think that is so powerful, like the distinction between I'm feeling this or I'm taking on their distress. I think it's also what you're talking about is slowing it down. Like, really, it's also— it's— that's why I think your book is about self-leadership and all this discussion about self-leadership. It's first like, wait, What's going on with me? As opposed to just reacting, right?

Well, now you're bringing up, to me, this is like a scale that we think about a lot at Good Inside that I think people think before they get to know me and Good Inside, like, oh, you just make it so like my kid doesn't really have tantrums and there's not a lot of backtalk. Yes and no. Behavior will improve over time, but that's kind of like a pilot saying, okay, so like my good piloting days, It's when there's perfectly smooth skies and there's never turbulence. I'm gonna go to pilot school to have turbulent-free flights. Like, if I heard that from a pilot, I'd be like, that's kind of pathetic. Like, you can't deal with turbulence? Like, turbulence is just part of the journey. A sturdy pilot knows how to deal with turbulence, but they don't have turbulent-free flights. And I think as a scale, as leaders, whether you're talking about parenting or home, you're always in some zone between reactive and ready. And none of that has to do with whether there's turbulence. Like, there's going to be turbulence in parenting and there's going to be turbulence in your organization. There— it just is. That's just part of the job. When you're in a mode of reacting, you just feel like, I'm drinking from a fire hose and I'm just dealing with one fire after another. When I feel ready, I actually just have clarity. Like, okay, I kind of have a sense this is going to happen. It doesn't mean anything horrible about my organization or about me. I know what my role is. I know how to connect with people but still have a stance of leadership. And now I have confidence, not because things are smooth, but because I actually know what to do when things aren't smooth. And I think that's what the sturdiest leaders feel. They feel ready more often than reactive.

I think that's so powerful. And, you know, when you bring that up, it also reminds me, like, it could be anything like vacation policy, work-from-home policy, or also you're always late with these presentations, or, you know, you're not connecting with your peers enough, so not everybody knows what's going on, for example. And then, you know, you have the conversation with the person and then here's what happens in the workplace. They get defensive. They don't say, Alisa, such an enlightened leader. Thank you for pointing out my flaws about not getting this thing in on time. They go, no, because there are other people. There's a reason. So they have their own tantrum, if I can say so, in the workplace. I think part of what you talk about is recognizing also when you're getting triggered because someone else getting defensive or crying, especially women crying in the workplace, is very triggering for men. Like, oh, I don't know what to do now. So talk about what happens when you find yourself getting triggered in the workplace and what do you think that looks like? And maybe also go back and talk about when people are not going to like rank you leader of— award you leader of the year when you hold the boundary.

And I think those things are related because whenever I talk about parenting and I talk about setting a boundary with my kid, right? Now, most of us don't know how to set boundaries in appropriate ways. We do it from a place of aggression and frustration. Like I always say, Boundaries, it's something we do for our kid, not to our kid. And most of us don't understand, so we do it to our kid. No wonder they get pissed. I'm putting the TV off because you're being insane and it's so bad for your brain and you're not responsible. That wouldn't feel good to anybody. But when I set a boundary around screen time for my kid and I say, look, I'm holding the remote because first of all, why we let our kids hold the remote and then we get mad at them for not turning off the TV. It's such a good example of just setting everyone up for failure. Don't let your kid hold the remote if they're 5. They're not gonna have the self-control. But let's say I have it and I say, look, I'm putting the TV off. I get it. It's always hard to end screen time. Honestly, for me too. Makes sense you're upset. We'll get through it. Like, my kid has never looked at me and just said, such a sturdy leader. I really needed that. Thank you for protecting my brain health. Never. They get upset. That just is what happens when you set a boundary, especially when kids aren't used to it. They actually stop doing that once they kind of know this is wash, rinse, repeat. But in the beginning they do because honestly, not because they're spoiled. None of us like wanting to do something and having someone else stop us. Like, that's just not an enjoyable human experience. We all get upset, but hopefully we learn to deal with it, right? So that's just a really good point. Our good leadership decisions are not rewarded with someone else's high five or A+ on a report card or good behavior immediately. It's just not. We have to disentangle the two. So that's number one. Number 2, triggers. It's just one of the most important things to be aware of to be an effective leader. Because for example, if you know, as a leader, I have a really hard time when people around me aren't happy with me. I just know that about myself. I know the best leaders make decisions that aren't always popular in the moment. I also know about myself. I just love when people look at me and say, oh, that makes sense. I agree. I agree. I agree. That's okay. You don't have to get rid of that. Actually, just being aware of that Matters so much because let's say you're going into a meeting where, you know, you're delivering some decision, we're going in a different direction and people in the room are gonna say, what? That's crazy. That doesn't make any sense. Whatever it is. If you can say to yourself, okay, I know that moment's gonna be hard for me. I can anticipate that. Now I can plan for it. Now I can even have a mini Post-it note on my computer. You know, someone else's disapproval doesn't mean I'm doing a bad job, right? I could have a little, Let's go for it. Like inner child moment where I imagine myself as a young kid and, oh, the words I needed to hear. It's okay to disappoint me. You're figuring things out on your own. And if I— it— all these things can take 30 seconds, but if I'm not aware of that trigger, all it means is I'm going to act it out. With our triggers, we're either aware of them and we can use that information to cope, or we're not aware of them, which just means it's going to act itself out in our behavior, which means I'm going to be in the meeting, I'm going to say this thing, people are going to be set and I'm gonna say something un-sturdy like, oh, okay, well maybe we won't. And let me bring it back. And I'm making this up. But meanwhile, the executive leadership team, the board is like, no, no, this decision is made. Like we've already moved forward and now I'm just kind of caught. So yeah, knowing your triggers, I think people feel like I'm not supposed to have triggers. No, you're a human, not a robot. And we want you to stay that way. So you're gonna always have triggers, but that information is actually your superpower.

Yeah, I think what you've said is so many important things, like you should not expect the— that you're going to get through a 30-year flying career without having turbulence. You're not expecting to get through a 30-year leadership career without having conflict, like people disagreeing with you, and that people not liking your decisions. And so I think that's right, you need to become aware of where that— what that feels like inside of you. And by the way, the idea of the Post-it, I tell my clients that all the time, like, yep, put a Post-it up here to remind yourself of whatever behavior you're trying to do.

I, I I need to be sponsored by Post-its. I'm just going to manifest that to the world. I use a lot of Post-its. And just one more pilot metaphor because these things really stick out. And I think it really— I've heard from so many people in the workplace, this has been the thing that actually they think about when they're making a hard decision. Like, again, if you imagine you're on a plane and you're flying to LA and you have like a really important— let's say it's a really important work meeting. You're like, I have a board meeting. I've got to be there. And you're midway over the country flying maybe from New York. And the pilot says, look, I have some lights going off. I don't know if this is actually as big of a deal as it seems, but I know the protocol. I have to make an emergency landing in Ohio. Think about people on the plane. Maybe it's you and everyone you work with. Everyone's like, what? This is absurd. Like, there's no way it's a big deal. I have to be in LA. They don't understand. Okay, so you're complaining about this, and now imagine the pilot getting on and saying, I hear you're upset. You know, forget it. Forget the whole Ohio thing. I'm just gonna keep going. I honestly I just kind of want you guys to give me a good review on Yelp and like, I'll just keep flying. Like, you're terrified. And it's so important to think about it that way, 'cause it's such a good example of where your complaining and protest isn't even representative of your wisest mind. And someone else hearing that protest and taking it so seriously that it changes their decision terrifies you. It terrifies you, and you know that in your bones. And I think whether you're thinking about your kids, where I know— I can't even tell you how many teens I've seen in my private practice who are so horrified that their parents listen so seriously to certain things they protest. I'm not going to therapy. Oh, I'm— if that means you think I'm a messed up kid. And then their parents like, fine. And I literally can remember the teen who said, can you believe my parent let me make that decision, felt so unloved and so unsafe, right? And I think our employees, people we manage, whatever it is in the leadership role, again, they're not going to say thank you. But if you think about that decision around an emergency landing, it becomes so clear that you just can't use short-term protest as a reason to change your mind or make a certain decision. Totally.

Because what you talk about a lot is sort of your job in the family, like the kids' job is to be upset, the parent's job is to set, create boundaries and move everybody forward. And the same is true. You know, it's like you talk about the adult, the parent is the leader of the family. In the workplace, the leader is the leader of the workplace. And so making those decisions to move the business forward is actually their job. And, you know, this is like, this is not exactly the same metaphor because employees are not 5 years old, but like sometimes it's the employee's job to not like it. To wish it were different, right? And so you have to kind of remember and hold sturdy what your job is as a leader.

And you have more information in certain positions, like, so, so people with different information, they're going to feel things, they're gonna think this is a horrible decision, right? My guess is you're making some big decision from a place of thoughtfulness and data and consultation and all the things, and knowing like, that's my role and someone else can be upset. And by the way, again, I can listen to that. That's important. Or even say to people in a room, hey, I'm about to share something that's come from a lot of thought, a lot of reflection, a lot of data, a lot of long-term focus. And still, I just want to preview, a lot of people in this room are going to be upset about that. And I don't blame you. You have the right to feel that way. And I just want to get that out in the open before I tell you, you know, place our company is moving to or a direction we're going to take. And that actually goes back to, I can pre-validate someone's feelings. The promotion thing, hey, I know we're gonna talk about your promotions conversation. I'm gonna say some things that I know are gonna be hard to hear. Still, I'm gonna share information that I think is gonna be really helpful to you in your career here, even if you're not getting the thing you want in this moment. I'm your teammate in this. And so let's get into that conversation together. You can be really connected and validating and really boundaried. And I think that's kind of what sturdy leadership makes possible.

I love that. And what you just did a few times now is demonstrate scripts, and I use scripts a lot with my clients as well. In the back of my book, I have 15 scripts to help you have difficult, delicate conversations, and that's really what you're modeling too. And you've also talked about the value of practice. So can you talk a little bit about the value of practice and why scripts are so important?

Yes, I'm a big sports person and almost as big as I am a pilot person. I feel like one day I'm gonna have trouble with my pilot metaphors and be you're not a pilot. But when I think about sports and I think about teaching kids, let's say, how to make a layup in basketball, the best coaches don't just talk to a kid. They're not like, here's how you do it, and describe it. At some point, you've gotta get in the gym and go through the motions with your body and do the reps. You might need to hear words too, but you have to do both. And if you actually just think about that also, you would never expect a kid to make a layup in a game if they're not practicing in the gym. They're definitely not going to make a layup game 7 with 1 second left if they haven't practiced over and over in the gym. So if we take that and think about the same kind of model for leadership, making a layup in basketball is about skills and practice. Communicating effectively is about skills and practice. Knowing what to do when your kid lies to your face is about skills and practice. This is actually Good Inside's model. We don't think parenting comes naturally. Like, I know that sounds crazy. We don't— like, often the only thing that comes naturally in parenting is how you were parented. And so if you wanna do things differently, you can, because it's a skill. It just requires the same thing as any other skills, learning, education, support, and practice. So let's take delivering a decision to someone you know is going to be hard to hear, like telling someone, even someone you like, but for whatever reason is not gonna get a promotion this year. That's hard for you and you know it's hard for you because your heart starts to race and you kind of have avoided it a couple of weeks in a row. And we all have reasons. We're like, well, we had to talk this. Our body's just trying to stay away. Instead of telling yourself I'm pathetic, or just tell yourself, okay, how would I talk to someone about this if it was a basketball skill? Okay, well, you're not taking a 3-pointer when the game's on the line the last couple of weeks. It's not because you don't care about winning. Let's actually just take that and bring it to the gym. We just gotta get in more practice. There doesn't have to be any shame or value associated. Let's just do more practice. And that's what I would tell someone who's a parent or a leader. Okay, this is gonna sound awkward and it will feel awkward. I want you to go in front of a mirror and I want you to use your voice recorder on your phone and I want you to say what you'd say to someone. And then after a moment, I want you to play it back. Do you believe yourself? Do you sound like someone that you would wanna hear this news from? Does it feel too rushed? Does it feel too— you can hear it in your own voice. And I can't even tell you how many times in my private practice, and honestly in Good Inside membership, we talk about this all the time. And someone just wrote something funny. She wrote, every time I hear Dr. Becky talk about getting in a rep, that's what I call it, get in a rep, I roll my eyes. I find it so annoying, but I still do it. And in the last week, I've heard myself say things in the heat of the moment that I know have only come outta my mouth mouth because I got in a rep when I was rolling my eyes in front of the mirror. And so yes, I think anything that doesn't come naturally, like a hard conversation that you deliver with sturdiness and also compassion, staying calm when your kid lies to your face, knowing how to deal with sibling arguments or bedtime delays— if you just tell yourself, what if I approach this from a place of skills and practice, it's just such an easier road. Now, especially with parenting and leadership, you might say, I don't even know the skill. What should I be doing? That's where I always say to parents, great, invest in education. This is important. But skills and practice are a very shame-free way to approach learning.

Yeah, I love that. That's such a good point. I mean, I just think people lack the skills. And so then it's like, aha. I mean, by the way, scripts are helpful.

Yes.

But then even as you're delivering the script, you're like, doesn't feel right, or I'm not really sure what to say here or whatever. Then you're like, "Eureka, I have a gap. Now I need to go take my responsibility to fill in the gap." That's right.

And I feel many ways about most things actually. Nuance seems to be slipping away in this society, but I'm trying to bring it back. Multiplicity and nuance, trying to make it trendy. But I feel multiple ways about scripts. Okay. So I do think parenting and leadership, you can also think about it like a language. So if you were raised in Mandarin, and you wanted to speak Spanish to your kids, anyone would tell you that's totally possible and just gonna require some time and practice. And by the way, in the heat of the moment, you're probably gonna speak Mandarin in your most stressful moments. That doesn't mean Spanish isn't working. You just go back to Spanish and go from there. So if you think about it that way, let's say I'm learning Spanish or someone's learning English, scripts help because you need to kind of start ordering with a waiter to then like build build more confidence. They kind of act as door openers where you're not gonna go into a new room without kind of starting the process of getting in there. And to me, a script kind of opens that door. And I think when you think about parenting or leadership, a script can help you speak a new leadership language. I know I wanna be validating and connected. I also wanna embody my appropriate authority. It's kind of new for me. Usually I just am more aggressive or I'm more passive. Okay, so I'm learning a new language. So a script can be helpful to put that in motion. If over time I feel like I can't find my own version of leadership without a script, that's a sign that I'm probably just mimicking someone else. But that doesn't mean scripts should be thrown out because I think for a lot of people, scripts can actually help them practice this new language and get closer to something that feels authentic.

Yeah, I totally agree with that, by the way, with you on nuance and something you say all the time that I say all the time too: both things can be true.

That's right.

There's nothing truer than that. Both things can be true. I wanted to talk about something else you talk about with kids, which is like— I'm gonna just sort of say it like a parent, like, you always do this at 3 o'clock or whatever. And you know, you as a parent are also always doing that, right? Whatever it is, maybe the kid has a meltdown at 3 o'clock every day, or you know, there's always like the TV time or whatever it is. And that is also true inside of companies. That person's always late. That person is always defensive. That person never connects with their colleagues. So not everybody knows what's going on. And rather than be like, you did it again, you did it again, you did it again. I invite people to really like talk about just the pattern, right? So now I'm not gonna talk about the thing that just happened. Let's talk about the pattern of what happens. And you talk a lot about knowing that, hey, this thing recurs over and over, let's solve it. So talk about how that sort of shows up in parenting and in leadership.

Yeah, it's something I kind of call predictable chaos, and yet in parenting we're like constantly surprised by it. And I could be like this too, so it's just fun to laugh about it. Like, my kid was whining about dinner, and then so of course I lost it. Your kid whines about dinner 5 out of 7 nights of the week. My kid was delaying bedtime. Like, your kid delays bedtime every night the week. Like, it's kind of amazing that we let ourselves— and again, I'm in this bucket, so I'm not trying to say I'm better— we let ourselves be surprised by completely predictable chaos. And again, if you think about a pilot who looks at their flight, they probably know it's going to be turbulent in the first hour, we're going to have some bumps as we land. But what you don't want to hear from a pilot is like, bumps as we land? What? This is crazy! There's always bumps as you land. Like, you're like, oh my goodness. And so I actually was just making a video about this today, because if you think about— anyone listening now, you think about your day ahead and whatever is most relevant. Think about at home or think about it at work. If you can tell yourself, what is a completely predictable turbulent moment? Okay. And so it's like, okay, this colleague is going to arrive late to a meeting. Now I don't have to judge it. Let me just say that's going to happen. Step 1 to me, to be sturdy, you have to be able to say the following sentence. Like, I expect this person to be late and I can cope with it. That's just important for in the moment so you don't react again. So you're not in reactive mode, you want to be ready for it. Okay, probably not going to solve it right before the meeting, but then after, I'm actually not going to react in the meeting. Like, we're just adding fuel to the fire. And also what's interesting behaviorally is if you're trying to get less of a behavior, telling the person that they're always doing the behavior like you can't reinforce a behavior and expect to get less of it. That just doesn't make sense, right? So telling someone you're always late, they're just gonna be late more often. You're kind of assigning an identity. So just prepare for that moment. And then after, I call this the same team mindset, but I think the most effective way to talk to someone about conflict you're having or behavior that's not great is before you talk to them, you have to see the situation not as me against you. I'm gonna call this guy Bob. It's not me against Bob. Bob, it's actually me and Bob on the same team against lateness because I know Bob and he actually does know that you should be on time to meetings. So if I assume we're on the same team after, instead of saying you're always late, which doesn't help, I'd probably say, hey Bob, let's get 5 minutes. Hey, look, I want to talk to you about something and I want to start out by saying we're on the same team. If you want to massively increase the effectiveness of conversations at work, worker, with your kids, just, or with your kids' teacher. Just start, I wanna talk about something and I just wanna say from the start, we're on the same team. Okay? I notice you've been late to a lot of meetings. You're not in trouble for that. I actually know that, you know, we need to start meetings on time, so we all know the same things. I'm not gonna lecture you. Something must be happening for you that's getting in the way of being there on time, and I just wanna be your team, on your team, figuring out what that might be. Do you have any thoughts? Let's figure this out together. Whether you're talking about a defensive colleague or a teacher or a 5-year-old or your partner, we are much more likely to want to problem solve when someone approaches us as on the same team. And the opposite, unfortunately, is also kind of true. When someone approaches us and we just feel opposite team energy, there's no way we're going to solve a problem with that because now all my energy has to go in to kind of defending my goodness as a person. And that is kind of the essence of a defensive, unproductive conversation.

Yeah, I love that. The idea of being on the same team is such a great strategy. I know you've— I've heard you talk about it, like sitting on the bench next to them. And, you know, sometimes I tell the leaders that I work with, it's like, they should already know that, or they should be able to do that, or whatever. I'm like, I know sometimes you have to sit next to them and actually sketch it out with them. And that is really a physical marker of being on the same team. I think it's so powerful.

Yeah, and I think shoulds— it's just helpful for everyone to know, it's just, it's just an unhelpful construct, right? Where I can tell you something, I know not to be on my phone before I go to bed, very aware. I also know that waking up earlier to work out is good for me. I should be able to go to bed without my phone, and I should be able to work out more mornings than I do. If anybody thinks that that is going to be helpful helpful in motivating me, they are sorely mistaken. And I just want to save them a lot of money in couples counseling or whatever they're doing, because it's just not helpful, right? And so when people say, but it's true, right? We mistake things that are true for things that are helpful. There's a million things that are true. It is true. You could say to your husband, you never come home and help with the kids at night. Okay. An equally true thing to say would be, I feel really alone at night and I just feel like I need more Can we talk about how to make that happen? They're both true. One is going to be much more effective. And so I think sometimes we take solace or almost give ourselves justification. We're like, but it's true, but it's not effective. And communication and leadership is about choosing a version of something that's true that is also effective for our goals.

100%. I love that. So we've talked about all these different strategies, and you yourself have admitted, and I know I can speak for myself, happens to sometimes things go wrong and we do have a bad moment or we yell or we're not effective or whatever. And then you talk a lot about the importance of repair and in some ways repair is the most important skill of all. Talk about repair, what it is, and also let's talk about repair in the workplace because it's very different from repair with your 5-year-old.

Yeah, I'm curious to hear, is it so different? Maybe it is, maybe I don't know if it is.

I think the words might be different, but you're right, the concept might be the same.

Yeah, yeah. So first of all, whenever people say like, you talk about this and you still yell at your kids, I guess I forget to say that. Like, it's so obvious to me, ideas and action always have a gap, right? And by the way, I always think whatever people we all follow on Instagram or listen to that like to talk about a certain topic, almost always they're just working out their own struggles in public. So like, I love talking about—

to learn.

Yeah, sitting with feelings and not fixing them because I'm quick to want to fix them. Like, I'm just therapizing myself in public. So yes, of course I'm short with my kids, or I yell, or I'm distracted. And so when I was in grad school, when I got my PhD from Columbia, I remember this class about secure attachment and all about attachment, which is the primary evolutionary mechanism that's, you know, helps kids develop. They need to be attached to their parent, and there's many types of attachment, and essentially you want a secure one. Secure is what helps kids, you know, become confident, resilient, protective for mental health. It relates to kind of the nature of a relationship we have with our kids. And I remember my professor at the time saying something and just thinking like, hold on a second, that seems really important. And the thing that was kind of said in passing but I wanted to highlight was, if repair is one of the kind of predictors of secure attachment, you can only repair if you messed up. So the best kind of attachment it doesn't require us to get it right all the time. It just requires us to repair after getting it wrong. I didn't have kids at the time, but I remember being like, all right, I feel like I can do this. Okay. You know, it's the perfection thing, you know? And I think that's what we all think, that our kids need a perfect parent, that someone at work, they need a perfect manager. Perfection is only a thing for robots, not humans. And as long in this AI world that we still are humans, not robots, like we actually have to hold on to the fact that relationships are defined by rupture and repair. That's the best it gets. And so yes, whenever someone says like, is there one parenting strategy I should get good at? If I do one thing today to improve connection with my kid, because connection also always leads to cooperation, what should I do? I always say repair, 'cause it's always true. And so what repair really means is going back to a moment that didn't feel good. It's usually a moment we snap or we yell, right? Taking responsibility for your behavior, acknowledging what it might have been like for the other person, and talking about what you would do differently the next time. And I don't want to overcomplicate it. It's usually some version of, sorry for yelling. I'm sure that felt bad. I'm working on staying calmer even when I'm upset, right? If you really want to get an A+ repair, you can add in the line, and this is always the most controversial. It's not your fault when I yell. And I say it's controversial because parents are like, well, but they didn't really listen when I asked them to get on shoes. But what's really important is they're not listening might have led to your frustration, but how you cope with your frustration is your responsibility as an adult and has nothing to do with your kid. And you don't yell because you're frustrated. You yell because frustration overpowers our coping skills. And it's kind of our responsibility as leaders to develop those skills.

Yeah.

And what repair does for a kid is instead of a kid being left alone with this ruptured moment, which really terrifies kids even more than colleagues at work, because kids need us to survive. They're like, wait, my mom who I need to survive just became scary mom. That's very disorienting. Like, what? The person I would go to for comfort is the person that delivered a little bit of fear and panic. And so instead of a kid having to resolve that on their own, where honestly the only thing they can really do to resolve it on their own is blame themselves well, I guess I'm just a bad kid, I make bad things happen. Which, yes, is why so many of us adults blame ourselves for things that were never our fault, because we've wired such self-blame. And that self-blame doesn't come from being yelled at, it comes from being yelled at and then not having a moment repaired. And so instead of that happening, you go back to your kid and take responsibility. And what you're really showing your kid is relationships aren't perfect and people need work on managing their own feelings. But also, in even the healthiest relationships, people are going to lose it. But you can expect those people to take responsibility and come back and reconnect. And I think that's just a really important lesson for kids to take with them.

So important. But also, again, in the workplace. So actually, the— what you just said, you know, I thought it related to like, you know, mommy yelled at you kind of thing. You don't say that in the workplace. But in the workplace, you say, listen, I had a moment, I was upset, I should not have reacted that way to you, and I'm sorry, and I'm working on staying calmer when— even when things are heated. And so I just wanted you to know that. That is a very powerful thing to say in the workplace.

And what's really important for people to know, those who are like the super practical people too, think about what it feels like at work, or let's say in your partnership, when someone snaps at you and then they just move on like nothing's happened. If you're like me and most normal humans, That just lives in your body. And all of a sudden at work, you're like, that's weird. I'm just 5 minutes late to every meeting. Talk about being late. Oh, that's weird. I'm just a little snippy on Slack. Oh, that's weird. When my boss says, hey, can you also get this done by Friday? I'm like, oh no, I can only get it done if XYZ things happen. Even though part of me is like, I probably could have gotten it done, but I'm kind of waiting for you still to say like, hey, I'm sorry, I was really unfair to you in that meeting. So when we have moments with kids or with colleagues that go unrepaired, the impact of that is huge because when you're disconnected from someone and you have a moment that felt bad but wasn't acknowledged, we all harbor those feelings and we tend to act them out. And so repair. And for anyone listening to this, just, you probably all think about things that happened a while ago, right? I think it's easy to like, I did kind of like really snap. I was not at my best this meeting last Monday. Maybe it's too late. No, no. Going to someone today and saying, hey, look, this is still on my mind. Last Monday we were in this meeting. I just keep thinking about it. I snapped. I was not at my best. It was a frustrating day about nothing to do with you, and that was really unfair to you, and I wanna say sorry. Like, think about the impact of someone saying, I'm still holding onto something. I'm keeping you in mind, and I am going to bring that up proactively. Talk about reconnecting and being more productive at work together because of that bond. It is never too late. And so I just want to make sure people know that.

Game-changing. And so trust-building. I love that. I love that. Dr. Becky, you have 3 million Instagram followers. 3 million Instagram followers can't be wrong, right? You have this best-selling book. You got all these things. You're big old Dr. Becky. Have you ever experienced imposter syndrome? Impostor syndrome or severe self-doubt.

I'm about to go on this retreat, kind of conference retreat, and it's one of these things where like you get a list of people, you know, who are going, and I'm like, wow, wow, okay, you know, like here goes nothing. And yeah, you know, it's funny, I have a colleague who's going on the trip too, and literally I just texted her. I was like, wow, it's an intimidating list, you know. So of course, Of course I feel that. You know, I'm in spaces now where, you know, there's a voice in me that says like, why are you here? Did they invite the wrong person? What do you have to say that's of value? And so, you know, one of the things that I really do try to practice, which is something I preach, right? There's no feelings or thoughts or syndromes in us that are meant to be kind of brought to zero. I don't need to not feel like an imposter when I'm going on this retreat coming up. In fact, trying to fix that and bring it to zero is probably the number one thing that will make it bigger and bigger, right? And so, and this is very inspired by Internal Family Systems. If people don't know Internal Family Systems, Dick Schwartz, I just think he understands the mind and has language for understanding ourselves. So in a very IFS-inspired way, I might say to myself, let's say my imposter syndrome's name is Bonnie. I don't know, I'm just— you don't have to call it something, but I don't know why I came up with that. I don't know anyone named Bonnie. Like, oh, like, yeah, like, hi Bonnie, I see you. You're allowed to be there. You're telling me I'm not smart enough, I'm not interesting enough, I don't know anything about the topics that are kind of the topics for discussion. Taking a deep breath, I'm gonna ask you to just, you know, step back for a little. I almost picture being in a car and in that moment when kind of our imposter syndrome tries to take over the driver's seat, we often think we have to get the imposter syndrome out of the car. Actually, the goal is just to get the imposter syndrome to the backseat. Like, we can't make it leave the car. And honestly, it's just trying to tell us, you're a little nervous, it's fine. And if I just say, can you just kind of go to the backseat, then I can take over the driver's seat, right? Which is my job as my self-leader. And I might be able to hear other voices that are like, look, Becky, honestly, Honestly, you've often been in places where you find people's intellect very, you know, kind of intimidating. And, you know, you will be in a room when people say things and you don't understand. And first of all, that's okay. You're allowed to ask questions. I always think whenever I ask a question, people also probably have that question and are very relieved someone else is asking it. And you can just figure out one moment at a time. So some version of like, I don't need to make that imposter syndrome go away. I don't need to convince myself why wrong. In some ways, that's just giving it more fuel. And I can just— it's just, you know, it's just gonna be like a passenger in my car during this retreat. That, that's all. And kind of, again, like a trigger if I notice, oh, like one of these sessions especially on like different topics, I'm like, oh, it's really gonna kick up on that one. Okay, let me just get ready. Let me know that. Let me know how to talk to it. And yeah, my heart will probably be racing in the beginning, and I hope they don't call on me, but at least again, I'm ready. Instead of reactive.

I love that. Back to self-leadership. That's really what it's all about. It starts everything there. You know, my last question for you is, what do you wish you had known earlier on your journey?

You know, one of the things I wish I had known earlier is some version of like, nobody knows everything, and you shouldn't want to know everything. That's like the end of learning and the end of growth. And the best leaders are constantly learning and growing. And I think one of the things I really learned on this whole Good Inside journey is if I look back on when I started my Instagram and put ideas out there, I remember early on someone's like offering, you should write a book, you should do this. And I remember thinking, I don't have enough ideas for a book. Like I hate books that could be pamphlets. So I'm also like, I'm not gonna be one of those people. I don't have enough ideas. And one of the things that's really interesting around how it's okay not to know, it was actually the process of putting out ideas. That led to more ideas, that led to more conversations, that led to new ideas, that there's not some state that you know everything and then put it out into the world. It's actually the process of being comfortable with like not knowing everything and putting out and iterating that leads to more knowledge. And I wish I had known that earlier because I think for a while I thought like, I'm gonna know everything and then I'm gonna do the thing, versus it's the doing of the thing that's going lead me to knowing more. And that's kind of a forever journey.

Love that, the forever journey. Well, Dr. Becky, thank you so much for joining me. And frankly, thank you so much for the impact you've had on the world, which has been very, very, very meaningful, well, well beyond parenting.

Thank you. I love this conversation and grateful to be talking to you.

Fantastic. Thanks for listening to From Startup to Grownup. If you like what you heard, give it a review on Apple Podcasts so other people can find it. And if you know of a founder or someone else who is meant to be on this podcast, drop me a line through my website, alisacohn.com.