#112 - Sal Di Stefano, Co-Founder of Mind Pump Media, How Authenticity, Cofounder Alignment, and ...

as you grow into a leader, remember a couple things. Everything's your fault. In other words, when something goes wrong, see if there's something that, that you could do next time to help prevent that from happening again. Take on that responsibility. When things go right, look out to your team, see who you could praise, make sure you praise them in public. And then lastly, again, from the fitness side, the more you can optimize and improve your health within reason, and I say within reason because people can get so focused and fanatical about that, that actually becomes a detriment. But the more you can improve and optimize your health, the more effective you're going to be in every other aspect of your life. A healthy version of you can handle the storms better and will have better success when things are going good as well. So make yourself the healthy version of you. It's just going to help everything out.

Welcome back. This is From Startup to Grownup, and I'm your host, Alisa Cohn. And I'm so excited about today's guest, Sal DiStefano, one of the co-hosts and co-founders of Mind Pump. Now, you all know that fitness is a real passion of mine, so how fun was it to go to the mecca of fitness, the HQ of Mind Pump Media, to interview Sal? I personally listen to Mind Pump all the time because it's a super fun podcast and it's also about one of my favorite topics, weightlifting. But Mind Pump is not just a podcast. Sal and his co-founders are building a big business, and that's what we talk about in this conversation, their different revenue lines and how they built them brick by brick. Now here's what I love about Sal. Sal is intentional, Sal is humble, and Sal is so genuine. He and his co-hosts really care about educating people about fitness and health and helping people live healthier lives. Sal told some great stories in this conversation about how he and his co-founders came together and how they handled it when one of their early co-founders backed out at the last minute after they'd already spent several months creating podcasts and they had to start over from scratch. We also talk about how real and raw the guys are on the podcast and the insight that guides that decision despite some of the drawbacks. I loved this conversation and I know you're gonna love it, so please enjoy this great episode with Sal DiStefano, co-founder of Mind Pump Media. Hi everybody. Usually I say welcome to the show, but today I'm going to say welcome to me to California. I'm here in the Mind Pump studio talking to Sal DiStefano. I can't believe my luck. I'm so excited, Sal, to be with you and welcome to the show.

Thank you so much for having me on. When you walked in, you just have such a great energy and I'm so— I'm excited for this. Thank you.

I appreciate that. Well, I'm excited about this too, because I have been, as I mentioned to you, an avid Mind Pump listener for about 2 years since the pandem— I guess the pandemic's longer than that, but since the pandemic, mm-hmm, I've been listening to you all over and over, but my listeners don't know what Mind Pump is. What is Mind Pump and what was kind of the founding insight of Mind Pump?

So Mind Pump is a fitness podcast at its core, but we do talk about a lot of things that interest us that we are either trying to grow in or learn from. So you'll hear us talk about things like current events, a lot of family life type stuff. We're all fathers and so that's always top of mind. Personal growth topics, economics. I mean, anything that we find interesting, we'll, we'll talk about on the show. But primarily our expertise is fitness and health. So that's, that tends to be the value that we present. And we started it, gosh, it's been about 9 years because we all worked in the fitness space for a long time before. And, you know, the long-form, you know, communication style of podcasts, really, it was alluring for us because it allowed us, or it gives the opportunity to communicate fitness the right way, health and fitness. You know, in the past, it was always just kind of short-form clips and headlines and taglines, and you really can't communicate effectively how to, for example, get leaner and keep it off forever, or how to improve your life through health and fitness. But podcasting allowed that. So that was why we chose it. And, um, none of us have any— had any media experience, which if you listen to the first 500 episodes, it's quite evident. But, uh, it's been an absolute joy and blessing to be able to do this and, and reach more people, you know. So yeah, awesome.

That's amazing. And that's the podcast, which I would just add, what you said is so true, that long form lets you, you know, say your story and tell really what's really going on. But I think it also helps people to get to know you and connect to you. And we'll talk about that in a little bit. But not only do you have the podcast, I mean, I really think you've got an extremely tight business. Can you talk about like the other lines of business and how it all fits together?

Yeah, you know, I'll tell you, just from a personal standpoint, I'm extremely blessed to have 3 business partners that are just so growth-minded, incredible men, but also have strengths in areas that really benefit the business. You know, all of us have been entrepreneurs, so all of us have experience in that, in that space. Adam, I would, I think we would all agree, is really a business savant and it's really been beneficial to growing the business. So we have many arms to Mind Pump. We have the media side, so that would include the podcast. The YouTube, the content we put out in written form, blogs, the book that I, that I had published a few years ago. We also have an investment side of the business. So with that, we've bought properties and done investment there. That's really just to support us in, you know, later on in life if we decide to retire or kind of where do we put our money to take care of us, you know, a little later. We have now a coaching side. So we just recently put out a course for trainers and coaches. So that's gonna be another side of the business. And then we sell workout programs.

Mm-hmm.

That's the first way we monetized was selling fitness programs so people could follow something that we felt, you know, worked, that was effective, that was also created with integrity because the workout programs that were out there and that are still out there are so often just terrible and not effective in the sense that they don't give people the how to achieve sustainable results in an appropriate way. They're all designed to. Just beat the crap out of people. So we have now— I don't know how many programs we have now. It's got to be at least 14, maybe, workout programs. And that was, like I said, the first way that we monetized. And then the sponsorships that the— that the media produces.

It's just so many things. And as I said, like, it's a really tight business model. And what I love about it is you bring people to the podcast and you build an audience that way with your blog and your podcast, and then you can sell something, which is amazing, selling these great fitness programs. And then you obviously have sponsorships, so then you have a bunch of extra money and you can make investments. I think you're invested with some of your sponsors and you know, you sort of invest in, in sort of the space and then you have these other real estate properties. But my, also my understanding is that like you trick out the real estate properties and like with red light therapy and like sleep aid and then I think you rent them on Airbnb.

Is that something like that? So we started very conservatively. So the idea was, okay, the business is building. We're all comfortable. None of us are, you know, money hungry in the sense that we're just, you just want to buy a lot of expensive stuff for ourselves. We're like, okay, we're good. What else can we do with this to set ourselves up? And so we started very conservatively. We looked for properties that we could make income off of right out the gate so we could put our money into some properties, collect some income. As we've done that, then we got a little bit more, I guess, daring. And Adam came up with the idea, and I think this is a phenomenal idea. Why don't we buy properties in desirable areas? So, you know, places where people would want to visit anyway and then put our, you know, our spin on it. So we have a place in Park City, Utah, and you, when you obviously Park City, great place to ski, great place to hike, great place to go. But in the, the place itself, we have red light therapy, cold dip, sauna. We have the garage outfitted with PRX gym equipment. We have, you know, Sleep8 systems on the beds, really as a place to go to kind of like optimize your health and the experience, but but also in a good location. And as that model's proving to be successful, we're probably gonna wanna duplicate that in other areas, like maybe a beach area, another, you know, maybe another mountainous area, maybe near a lake, and just see how that kind of works out.

I think that's so great and perfect for your audience, which again is like sort of the tightness of your audience.

Yes.

Which is so great. But like when you all, and I did, I, I didn't listen to episode number 1. I listened to episode number 3.

Okay.

And it was clear that you were 3 guys on a couch just like talking, like just talking.

You're being too kind to me.

You know, and the sound quality was such such a different experience than like the current Mind Pump. So I'm curious, when you all came together, did you say to yourself, we're gonna build a business and it's gonna be like this block and this block and this block? And, or did you say, well, let's just try a podcast and see what happens? Like, where were you on understanding what the business was gonna be when you first started?

Well, I'd be lying if I, if I said we didn't have big goals and big dreams. However, we wanted to test to see if we could build an audience and provide value to enough people to where we did have a business. So when we started the podcast, Doug and I had already created and developed the first workout program called MAPS Anabolic, and it was already set up digitally. You had a place you could go, you could follow the program. So we had that set. Adam and Justin had another digital— they had a nutrition program they had that was set up digital. But we didn't want to sell anything until we built an audience and until, you know, they were telling us, hey, do you have anything you can, you know, anything else we can invest in or off or offer us because you're providing us so much value? So we did the podcast for a full year without asking for a single dime, without monetizing anything. We all did our normal jobs. We'd show up you know, once a week and record 4 episodes all at once. And right around, I would say, month 10 or so, we were getting emails from fans and they were saying things like, is there, is there a t-shirt? Or do you have a Patreon? Or is there some way I can give you guys, give back to you guys? And that's when we knew, okay, I think it's time to launch our first program. We launched Maps Anabolic and then it just, it just took off from there. And the goal at that point was, let's continue to see where this goes. Let's continue to grow our audience, provide lots of value, and then the opportunities will kind of present themselves. And I don't think we started accepting sponsorships until year 3 or 4. That's when we started saying, okay, now I think we can sponsor the show. So up until then it was just the, the fitness programs.

Yeah. So it's amazing. So you really were like, okay, we'll do this. And then you sort of see opportunities as they come. I just think it's important for everyone to hear that. We do it. We talk a lot to venture-backed startups on this show and it feels like, oh, then this happened. And we got a whole bunch of venture money and there's like a whole bunch of pivots and ups and downs there. But it's, it's just so important for everybody to realize you don't need venture money. You can start with something that's like to build an audience and to be able to build a way to communicate with people. And I think that's also the miracle of podcasting and technology right now to be able to do that.

Yeah. We, you know, it's interesting cuz, because of new media, I think a lot of, especially new people in the space, they think that the old rules of business all of a sudden don't apply. Like, you know, we'll talk to, trainers and coaches or aspiring trainers and coaches. And they'll say to us like, I don't, you know, I want to build my business, but I only have 1,000 followers on Instagram. And it's like, you know, when I owned a wellness, I owned a wellness studio for 15 years. If I had 1,000 people, you know, walk through my doors, like it would've been incredible. And yet we view these 1,000 followers as like, oh, that's nothing. So we don't try to build value. We don't try to build a relationship with them. So we understood that. And so we wanted to really build a relationship with our audience and we wanted to provide so much value that the rest was easy. I think once you have that attention, you have that influence and it's genuine and your audience knows you're authentic, then you can go in, I mean, almost any direction you want. And we, again, we, we were not media guys. We started in the fitness space. I, I'll tell you what I love about the fitness industry in general. People that, especially trainers and coaches, gym owners, I would say people that start in the fitness industry, their main motivation isn't to make money. Now, there's nothing wrong with making money and building business. I'm a huge capitalist, no problem with that whatsoever. But the value of that with fitness is that, you know, people go in, they want to help people. And so they kind of, they really figure out how to do so. And they figure out how to build value. And how can I, how can I continue to do a better job with these people? So that's what we did for years, for years. How can I get my clients better results? Why isn't this working? Why are people gaining the weight back? And why do the old methods not work? And then I, you know, I would seek people out. Like, let me work with therapists. How do they talk with people? What are acupuncturists doing with their clients? And how do I communicate this, this message of, you know, it sounds so simple, fat loss, right? How do I communicate it more effectively? Doesn't seem to be sticking. What are we doing wrong? And so all those messages, all those lessons that we learned as trainers and gym owners, we brought over to the podcast. And once we built that audience, you know, we, we launched our MAPS Anabolic. And I, I think the first month we launched, this is a $100 you know, digital program. I think we, if I'm mistaken, sold $30,000 or $40,000 in that first, that first month.

Wow.

Of just digital workout programs. The demand was so strong and we had built that much. I remember getting messages from people when we first launched it and they said, people said, I'm not even looking for a workout program, but I just want to support you guys.

So, uh, well, that's really what you want. That's right. You don't build, you don't build sort of an audience. You build fans.

Yeah.

You build fans and friends, real relationships.

Yes. And we have, You know, the integrity we have with that is so important to us. Again, because as trainers, we really care about our clients. You know, sponsorships is a big one. We won't work with a sponsor unless we use and believe in the product. We see that it will provide true, real value to our audience, and we like the founders. We also have to like the founders. Do they align with us? Are they good people? And then we'll work with someone. That was a lot of money turned down in those early days. People came to us and said, hey, sell our product, sell our supplement, sell or whatever. And we'd say, no, no, we can't. We don't, we don't believe in your product. We don't like your methods. You use a lot of these before and afters. You're communicating the wrong message. Doesn't work with us. Now, now it's really worked out well. Now our conversion rates on our sponsorships are some of the best you'll see anywhere. We're often told I mean, one of our sponsors we work with also works with one of the largest podcasts in the world. I won't say their name, but on a download per download basis, we convert 3 times higher.

Oh, it's amazing.

And that's because, again, because our audience and all of our sponsors tell us this, you have the best, you guys send over the best customers, they trust you, and we will not compromise that. We will not compromise that no matter what. Like I said, it's, it was a lot of money turned down in the beginning.

Yeah.

But now it's turned into this very stable, successful business.

Yeah, that's amazing. I, I often talk to founders about like values and values match and how important it is to have those values. So you kind of know what you will do and you won't do. I kind of want to ask you about how that relates to your three co-founders. So you had— you and Doug knew each other, as you said, and then Adam and Justin were also doing their own thing. And I think you met like through a Facebook— like you sort of knew each other, then you met through like a Facebook message or something.

Yeah.

And then you all got together. And then you sort of, it feels to me like a little bit of fairy dust, you decided to co-found this company. I, as an executive coach, I have, I talk to my founders a lot about this thing I called the co-founder prenup, the way to have like conversations about values and alignment and vision and where you wanna go and conflict and how you handle conflict. Did you have any of those conversations before?

Yeah.

How did those, how did that go?

How did you have those conversations? You know, so Doug was my client.

Yeah.

And then we became close friends and then developed MAPS Anabolic. Justin and Doug had worked together in the gym industry for a while. Developed a program together, so they knew each other. I had known of Adam because both of us started in the fitness industry at 24 Hour Fitness back in the late '90s, early 2000s. They were the pioneers in the, in the gym industry. These are the days of Mark Masteroff running the company, and they just, they were, they really wrote the book on how to build a successful gym business. And Adam and I were top performers in the company. So that's how I knew of him. You'd, you'd get these reports, these like, you know, production reports, and I'd see his name up there. He'd see my name up there. There were people that worked for me then, then worked for him, and they'd tell us things like, you got to meet Adam. And Adam would hear the same thing. But we didn't cross paths until much later. Then we crossed paths through Facebook, through something completely unrelated. I sent him a copy of the MAPS Anabolic digital marketing material put together because I knew of him through, you know, how successful he had been in the gym industry. So I said, hey, ask you a favor, would you like to look over this? Let me know what you think. Sent it to him. He saw it, called me up right away. He's like, this is amazing. Let's sit down and meet. So that first meeting, we all sat down and talked for 4 hours. It was 4 hours nonstop. It was lots of chemistry, incredible conversation, but all of our values were coming out. And it was, it's almost like, you ever meet that person? They're probably one of your best friends now where you sit down and you talk, you have an opinion on something and they're like, Yes, exactly. I feel the same way. Yeah, that's what it was for 4 hours. Yeah, for 4 hours it was what's wrong with the fitness industry, how we want to do it the right way, how we want to try to prove that you could build a business in this space doing things that everybody else says you shouldn't do. For example, here we are 9 years into this business. We've never once, never once in our— let me tell you, every marketing team we've ever worked with hammers us about this. They just don't get it. But we've never once used a before and after picture. Okay, this is staple in our space. You want to make money, use an ad that shows a before and after. Okay, we never wanted to do that because we had worked with lots of everyday people. We also suffered from body image issues ourselves, which is what got us into fitness when we were teenagers. And, and that just portrays the wrong message. It puts too much value on one aspect of fitness, which is how you look, And we knew there's so many other values that we wanted to communicate. So these are the things we talked about when we first sat down and, and we were just all so incredibly aligned. And then there were moments in the business that demonstrated this. And we had one early on that I'll never forget. When we first started, we actually had a fifth partner. A lot of people don't know this. I, I won't say his name, but this gentleman had a large social media following at the time.

Oh.

And he was going to give us our our Kickstarter, right? Like, he's got the following on social media. This will at least get us some exposure, then the show will grow. He was this big fitness person. So we recorded 15 episodes, edited 15 episodes. It was a lot of work. Remember, we all had full-time jobs. So months of work, 15 episodes ready to go. Doug's ready to launch it. And it was literally 2 days before Doug was going to post them up on iTunes, and this guy calls us. And he says, hey, at the time he was sponsored by a big supplement company. He says, I sent the episodes to my bosses of this supplement company and they liked the show, but they said that they don't think they can work with me if, if we release these episodes. And, and just long story short, we were talking about how the supplement industry runs the fitness business, how there's a lot of lies in the, in the supplement industry, how they portray the wrong thing and that kind of stuff. And so he said, they, they won't. Pay me anymore, so I can't do this. So we get— it was on text. So we get this text. We have to scratch 15 episodes. We have to dump them. And none of us really have a social media following. I got that text immediately. I thought to myself, we can't stop. We got to start over. I'm going to get on the phone. I'm going to talk to, you know, Doug, Adam, and Justin, and I'm going to convince them to keep going. I'm going to get on and do my motivational spiel and I want to convince them. So we get on this group call. Before a word could come out of my mouth, and I won't use the expletives, but Adam gets on the phone right away. Adam, fuck that, we're going to keep going. Justin, yeah, that's what I was thinking. Doug's like, I'm on board. I didn't even say a word. And I knew right then, like, these are the guys. These are the guys that I want to do this with. For sure. And we did, and we started it and it, and it did well. There was another moment where we were, we're very lively. We all speak our opinions. None of us hold back. Adam and I, I would say, are the most animated. And there was early days, Adam and I got in a real big disagreement over something with the business and it got heated, yelling and back and forth and just, just really, really heated. Okay. And the, you know, the argument was over, decision was made. I left. And I remember texting him and I said, hey, no hard feelings. I appreciate that we had that, whatever. And he says, it's so crazy because I was just about to text you the same thing. And that was another sign, like, these are the guys, these are the guys. We all just want to win. We all just want to do well. And if we all agree on an idea, even if it's one that I hate, Once we agree on it, it's my idea. It's whether, whether it succeeds or fails. And that's the attitude everybody has. So it's, it's been pretty amazing. But those— we all align on, on those core values. What's funny too, is if you meet us all in person, we're all very different. But those core values, you know, integrity, authenticity, not selling ourselves out, you know, doing the right thing, wanting to move forward and win. Being a team player. So again, if you disagree but everybody else wants to go forward, like that's how you're going to do it and you're going to adopt it. We all agree on those things. And so it's really worked well.

That's amazing. Well, those are great stories. Thank you for sharing that. And it's so true. I think that the moments of truth and the moments of difficulty really show you what you're made of and what other people around you are made of, because you can theoretically say, oh yeah, of course I would do this or that. But when it really happens, that's the only time you know what you're really going to do. And what your co-founders are gonna do around you.

Yes.

And something you mentioned, you know, the idea that, you know, you're fighting with Adam or, or whoever, and ultimately you all adopt his idea.

Yes.

Ultimately he wins, quote unquote.

Sure.

Then you do what we call in the corporate world, I'm not sure if you have this expression yourself, disagree and commit. Have you heard of that expression? No. So in the course, Amazon, I think popularized this, the idea of like, we can fight and fight and fight. And that is the point to be able to get, interrogate ideas, get it out, really be able to like kick the tires of what's going on and ultimately make a decision. And then everybody's supposed to act like that's my decision.

Mm-hmm.

Like to disagree and disagree fiercely and then commit to that. I think it's really easy to say that, but I think in the heat of the moment, people wanna be right. So I guess I'm curious, how did you learn those relationship skills that are so important to deal with your co-founders and that, those kind of dynamics?

You know, I've managed a lot of teams and I, I would teach that to my teams. I have a very tight family. My family, very, very close. And nobody's perfect, but, you know, we all are there for each other. Probably came from there. But I don't see— I don't see how you would succeed otherwise. You know, a partnership in a business is a lot like a marriage. You know, it's like, okay, when you're married, especially if you have children, like, what's our goal? We want to raise really good people and we want to grow together. And that means we're going to disagree a lot, but At the end of the day, you and I are on the same team. That's how we all are with that. So we've had examples. We've had examples of, you know, moving forward with an idea that one of us disagreed with strongly, and then that idea failing. You know what doesn't happen? I told you so. You see, I should have— I knew it. We shouldn't have done it. Nobody says that at all. It's our idea. And then success. When we succeed, when we do something, when someone comes up with an idea, when Adam does something or Justin does something or Doug something does something or I do something and we present that, it's we, it's us. And we continue to do that with each other. And that's created a team that's stronger than, than Mind Pump. Well, we say this all the time. If you're in here, you know, behind the scenes, you'll hear us say things like, we'll burn this down and start all over. We don't care. You know, but I think that attitude, I don't know what other attitude you could have and move forward with 4 opinionated alpha, whatever you want to call us, men. Otherwise it would be just, it would be turmoil.

Yeah. Well, I've been inside a lot of startups which are actually turmoil. And in fact, as you probably know, most startups fail and a lot, 65% of them fail because of co-founder conflict.

Yeah.

So it's very rare what you have, especially because it seems like all 4 of you came to that naturally. Do you have any tools that you use to make sure that your tools or techniques that you use to make sure that your co-founder relationship stays on track? Any regular activities you do or discussions?

I have to say, this is, this is kind of interesting. The, the podcast itself might be part of that. We, we weren't media trained. We had no experience in media. And right away, right out the gates, we'd start up the mics and it was open conversation. Okay, so it was not a show as much as it was, you know, 3 dudes just like having good conversation, chatting, and we're interested in stuff. And here's what happened with my kids and here's what's happening in the world. And, you know, let's talk about this one topic here or there. So we bonded very strongly over— I mean, I don't know, I don't know Justin and Adam very well, but I got to know them very quickly because we'd sit down and talk for an hour and a half, 4 or 5 days a week. So that's, That's got to be, that's got to be part of it. I, you know, I can only speak for myself, but from the outside I would say, you know, Justin played high-level team sports. I think you learn that as an athlete. You learn that it's, it's all of us. It's, there's not one superstar or whatever. It was like, we all move forward. Adam, I know, played team sports, but he also led a lot of very large successful teams. He was also an entrepreneur early on. You know, Doug's done, stuff on his own as well. I think you learn that as you, as you move forward. But if I were to, if I told you I had the exact answer, I'd be lying. I think that there's a little bit of serendipity, you know, that's involved. But I do think it's important that if your core values align, then the other stuff can be worked around. Like to give you an example, if one of us, if one of us really valued taking home a ton of money, buying expensive things and being flashy. It would have been very difficult because the rest of us are very much like, well, as long as I'm comfortable, let's invest, let's grow, let's do this other thing with it. So, you know, when it comes to paying ourselves, it's always, yeah, this is, this is fine. We need, we don't need any more than this. Let's see what else we could do. But imagine if there was one guy that's like, no, no, I want to make, I want to make even more. I want to go buy this, this, this mansion or what. So I think that those core values, once those align, then like all the other things, I think can get worked out.

Yeah, that's exactly right. And like you were talking about priorities and, you know, what you value, what are the most important things. Also the way you handle conflict, which is like somebody might say, oh, we don't have conflict in my family. We just cover it all over. Or like, oh, we, you know, we shout at each other in our family and we then we become friends after. Or also, you know, sort of the idea of when you ultimately, you know, sort of have the business of your dreams, what does that look like? It looks different for different people. And I think that those differences in values are the ones that really break people up. But what you're saying is just sounds like you all— I don't wanna say you lucked into, well, you said serendipity.

There's gotta be a part of that.

Yeah. I mean, it does sound like you just sort of had this natural vibe of we want this kind of thing. Oh, I, I was gonna say something else also, the amount of work people do.

Mm-hmm.

Right. So a lot of co-founders break up because, or they have conflict because one's working really, really hard and one's not working so hard. But it sounds like you all had that same, point of view of ownership.

I think we all, we all value each other's talents.

Yeah.

And value.

Yeah.

And so that's kind of like, okay, like, this person's working less, but I can't do what they do. They're bringing a lot of value. So at the very least, I can, I can add more in, in my particular way. And that— there's definitely, there's been moments in the business where it's been that way with one guy or the other guy. We also— one thing we have in common is we all really want to we all really want to do a good job for each other. You know, like, the biggest pressure that I have personally is that my business partners value what I did and see that what I did was, was good for the business. So I really want to show them that. And when I have an opportunity, you know, like, I do most of the speaking engagements and I do most of the outside podcasts. Like, I'm so, I'm so grateful I can do that because I know what they do. I know what they do behind the scenes, for example. So it's like, oh, Sal, you got to go travel to LA to go be on 3 podcasts and whatever. It's like, yes, let me go do that. Like, that's, that's what I can provide. Let me do that. Because I know what these guys do behind the scenes. And behind the scenes, I don't do much of what they do at all.

That's great, right? So everyone kind of pulls their weight.

Totally.

So I'm curious, as the podcast grew and your business grew, you know, entrepreneurial journeys have so many ups and downs.

Yeah.

And like things are going great and you're on euphoria and the things are down, you're like, oh, we're never gonna make it. Did you ever have moments where you thought, oh, I don't know if we're gonna be able to get over the edge? Or did it just start moving from, you know, from the, the original time that you started selling your, your first program?

Yeah, I would say, I mean, we had hurdles in the business in the sense that like, I remember in the beginning we all thought we had to do everything together.

Yeah.

And so dividing and conquering there was some growing pains there, but we all kind of fell into—

What do you mean growing pains?

Well, it was like, okay, we all have to— let's all decide on this sponsorship, or let's all— if we're going to get interviewed, we're all going to be interviewed on the show. If we're going to create content, we all have to create content. Or if we're all going to look at the books and figure out our budget, we're all going to. But I think we naturally fell into the roles that we're best in, and then we trust each other. Wholeheartedly with those roles. So that was a, that was a bit of a growing pain initially, I'd say early on. But you know, the pandemic was interesting. That, that was a challenge for us because gyms were closed. We didn't know how much of our audience would stop listening because they're not working out. We really didn't know what that looked like. We had no idea. And all of our programs required, you know, at least some equipment. Now we did have a program. Here's the serendipity part. We did have a program that was an at-home workout program, and it was our least selling fitness program. All of our, our barbell, dumbbell, machine-based ones were the ones that were really popular. So we had this program that we had created, didn't really sell much. Pandemic hits, and it was like that program exploded. It was like beautiful that we had it available.

Yes.

And all of a sudden took off, and our listenership exploded. And what we thought was, you know, let's get on here and try and help people with their mental health. Let's try and help people feel better through activity, through nutrition. Everybody's going through this kind of traumatic time and scary time or whatever. And it really worked. It really did propel the show. Recently, we, we dove into the, the coaching space, and, um, that seemed to be perfect as our program sales started to kind of flatten out. Then the coaching program really started to take up and take off and kind of more than make up for it. So, you know, at one point we had somebody that managed our sponsorships. That didn't work out so well. Adam stepped up, took that over, turned out to be a blessing in disguise. Nobody could do better than Adam, and that dramatically improved revenue. And then he created these systems that made it so, so streamlined. So yeah, there was some definite challenges. We've never taken a step back, you know, with, I would say with revenue or growth yet. I'm sure at some point we will, but we're always looking forward. How can we provide more value to the current people that we have? Not necessarily how can we get more people to jump on board? And that's worked well for us. We've never, well, now we have, but for a long time, and even now we've spent very little money on marketing to get new listeners. And for the first. 7 years, we didn't spend a single dime. It was all word of mouth.

Yeah.

And so we want to continue to just provide more value. By the way, this is like the— running a gym is like this. There's a lot of gyms who will— they'll go out and they'll just try to get as much attention as possible. But when we ran gyms, we found the most success in providing the members that we do have with the best experience, the best value, the most touchpoints, and then they would bring members, and then the members that they brought, they would just sign up. I didn't have to sell them anything. They were just like, well, John loves this place, let me just— right. And so we're like, this has got to be like that. And it turns out that it is.

It is like that. That's hilarious. I just personally know how many times I've said to people, yeah, Mind Pump, and I show them on my podcast player, like, yeah, this one. Yeah. And then people are like, okay, let me, let me see it, because I don't think I told you this, you know, I'm very big into fitness myself. My fitness journey has been very meaningful to me, and I used to be a runner, and then I had osteoarthritis in my right knee, and so then I had to start weight training, and I hated it for a long time until I finally fell in love with it. And now I do these, every once in a while, a post on Instagram with me and my kettlebell, and not like all glossy, not all glossy and pretty, like kind of super normal person doing my, like, you know, heavy weights with kettlebells, or I have every year on my birthday, I do a personal best deadlift.

Oh, that's great.

Yeah. And I show it on Instagram, Facebook, whatever. And then people will say, I didn't know— I started during the pandemic and I didn't know what I was doing. I just wanted to express myself. Who knows what? And people will say, oh, it's so inspiring. And I just think this idea of word of mouth and people who care about you then care about what you care about. It's like the best way to do organic growth for you all because you get these rabid fans who really care about you guys and your work. And then of course they're going to refer people to you.

Yeah, it's, it's humbling. You know, we, we do live events where we'll invite 100 to 300 fans and we'll meet somewhere and we'll, we'll do a Q&A with them and like a meet and greet. And they make us no money. Okay. We're lucky if we break even. And that's— we don't care. The goal isn't to make any money off of it. The goal is to meet people in person because one thing that we— I remember us all talking about this early days— one thing that we lacked or that we missed from working in gyms and working with people was seeing the impact.

Yeah.

You know, I'm doing this podcast and my voice is going out into the internet and I'm getting some emails and messages and that's meaningful. But when you meet somebody, you know, like you, like you're telling me, like, you know, how much it's impacted you and what it's done for you. That drives us. It always did, right? So we do these live events, and then we meet people, and we're— and we leave them, and we're like, we're so invigorated and humbled for this opportunity to be able to, to help people through this, this medium. So, and on a business sense, I, it's— I think it's, it's a great approach. It's like you already have customers, right? Look, I'll tell you, I am 10 times more likely to see a plumber that my close friend or family member says, this is the best plumber I've ever had, than an ad or even a Yelp review.

Okay, 100%.

That's not— that has not changed. And so if you, you know, we had 1,000 listeners at one point, you know, and they brought us another 2,000, and then they brought us another 6,000. And it's just being, being able to continue to bring that value versus trying to always scoop more people in, I think it's a much more effective approach. At the very least, it's, it's, uh, there's a lot more meaning behind it and it feels a lot better.

Yeah, I can imagine that. And so you build that fan base and, you know, really it's also about getting to know the three of you and you guys all sit together and like chitchat for like 45 minutes or 50 minutes. And on the other side of that, I'm just so curious, what's it like to be so well known? I mean, I, I, I don't think you're George Clooney necessarily. Maybe you get recognized like that, but the point is, I can imagine people coming up to you in a gym or in real life, or even when I came in to see you, I feel like I know a lot about you. Yeah. And that must be a little weird.

It's weird. And look, I'll be very honest and frank with you, and I don't want this to come across the wrong way because we love that we're providing people value. But I would say that's the least favorite thing.

Yeah.

Of this whole thing. None of us cared. We couldn't care less about being known or being recognized. In fact, we're all quite private. And so I do value being anonymous, going to a restaurant, especially when I have my kids and my wife with me. Now, people do come up and stop me and then tell me the impact they had, and it feels amazing. But it is— it is also a bit strange. And I don't— I don't seek that. I find it interesting that people do seem to value that or want that. I don't understand necessarily why, but when I see the person, when I see their face and I see how they're communicating to me that, hey, you, you know, you helped my daughter. Look, I'll tell you, the first time this happened, you know, you had 4 grown men crying. This is a real, just true story. We went to our first health type convention. So this must have been year 3. And we went to Paleo FX. So this was in Texas.. And we, we go in there and it's our, somewhat our space. So we kind of got recognized a couple times, but otherwise we were still somewhat anonymous. So we're walking around and then we're kind of done. We're walking out and this, she was probably 17 or 18 years old. This young lady stops Justin, grabs his arm.

Yeah.

And she looks at him and she goes, I was in 24/7. Care for an eating disorder, and your podcast is the only thing that kept me alive. I didn't want to exist anymore. And I listened to you guys talk about health and wellness and strength training and you guys, and, you know, of course all of us are just, you know, tears, you know, coming down. And it was, it was moving. It was incredible. So there's that side of it that, you know, when you hear like, hey, you're really, you're really helping me out. That's— that part's pretty awesome. But, you know, I'd lie if I say it wasn't weird. Like, I remember I went to a restaurant with my wife, I don't know, maybe 4 or 5 years ago, and there was a table, you know, to the side, and they kept looking over. And at this point I'm like, do they recognize me or do they know me? Right? And they walk over, oh my God, we love your show, whatever, can we take a picture? And then they go sit back down and they're within earshot. I haven't even started dinner yet. So now I'm like self-conscious.

Self-conscious.

I kind of wanted to talk to my wife about some personal stuff, but not now. And they're, you know, they're kind of noticing what I'm ordering, what I'm looking at. So it is weird. It is a bit weird.

Yeah. And yet, well, that's fascinating what it's like to be in the real world and recognized like that. And then the three of you talk about like real life and obviously you name your kids. And, you know, when I came here, I was like, how's Aurelius doing? And I was going to even say like, hey, I'm not a polar bear like Aurelius. Like, you know, like I really— I— and certainly with Adam, he talks about, you know, so many different things.

Oh, yeah.

I just think it's so— you— You would have the option to stop. Yeah, but you don't stop.

No.

So I'm just curious.

Why?

Yeah.

Yeah.

What that's like.

It's trained into us. When you train people, by the way, you can get any coach or trainer who's been working with people for more than 5 years, they'll tell you the same thing. When you train people and you really care about wanting to help them, you end up figuring out the more vulnerable and real you are, the more effective you are. Yeah, that's just, that's just the bottom line. I remember the first time I figured that out, I had this young lady that I worked with that I trained, and I remember her telling me that she had really bad body image issues. And as she's telling me, I'm thinking, do I tell her that I understand because I had my own and I still struggle with this? So I did. And I said, you know, I know what that's like. I used to do this. I used to do that. I really didn't like that. I had this terrible body image issue. And I remember it was like a light switch, how much more effective I was as a trainer or coach after that conversation. And then, you know, when you're working with people, you work with them, you know, let's say 2 hours a week, right? 2 days a week for an hour. And, you know, it's undivided time, one-on-one. I mean, the back half of my career, people with me for 10, 12 years, you know, every Monday and Thursday or whatever, I see this person. So you just— this is how you, you learn to be. So when we turn the mics on again, we don't have media experience. So, you know, filtering those things would make us very awkward. Like if we were to try to structure the show like you're supposed to, like a show and don't do this, do that, it would— we wouldn't be able to do it. So it's just— I don't— there's no other way. So we talk, we're open, we're honest, and then we deal with the consequences afterwards. I have agreed, though, not to show pictures of my kids.

Yeah.

So you mentioned my 3-year-old. Now that he's 3, I'm not gonna, you know, if I post a picture, it won't show his, his face. My older kids, I don't post, just out of respect for them, because I don't want them to, you know, hey, I know your dad, or whatever type of deal. They deserve, you know, that kind of privacy. But otherwise, I don't know. I don't think we, we know how to be out of the way.

Well, it makes sense. And I think that that is the whole point, the authenticity and your ability to you know, build a connection with people. And part of what you just mentioned and what I hear a lot when listening to the show is your own personal journey. Let's say your anxiety, yeah, your body image issues. And you know how open you've been about that. And I'm just curious, you know, what that's been, I guess how this entrepreneurial journey has either, you know, helped soothe those issues or how, how, how they've like changed your experience as an entrepreneur.

Yeah. Uh, well the show's cathartic. Yeah, I can imagine. Yeah. And I tell you what, you want to talk about a personal growth tool? Record yourself talking about something and then listen to it 2 months later.

Yeah.

Like, it's— you, you hear like, oh, I said that, or wow, that— I see how that came across, or I feel differently now. Man, that was, that was interesting. So it's quite cathartic and therapeutic in that sense, in terms of— so it's forced me to become a better personal all the way around, because I'll talk about things and I feel like I'm held accountable because I've mentioned it and my audience has heard it and my co-hosts have heard it. As far as the business is concerned, you know, when we started the podcast, I had just gone through— or no, I was going through a divorce when we started the podcast. I'd been married for 15 years, 2 kids, very easily the most challenging time of my life. And I was a very different person in my first marriage. I wasn't very present. I worked, you know, I don't know, 100-something hours a week very easily, barely saw my kids except for maybe on the weekend when I play with them type of deal. And then going through a divorce, I was faced with the potential of not seeing my kids at all. And oh my gosh, I really want to be there for them. And I felt bad that they had to go through this, this, this tough process. And so I, I was— I, I had some very, very strong boundaries. Like, I, I'm not going to work bell to bell. My kids are going to come first. And that caused some initial struggle. Luckily, you know, at the time, Justin and Doug both had kids, and they're both very similar, so they were kind of along. I remember Adam struggled a lot with it early on because he didn't have kids, and he's like, I want to just work bell to bell. But, you know, he's got a son, and we've molded we've really shaped the business around that value. So the irony is all of us were entrepreneurs before. We'd all had businesses before. The most success we've ever had monetarily is with a business where we worked the least hours because we prioritize those important things with our families.

Yeah.

So I don't know. I think if you put the right things first, I think— I don't think it'll hurt you. I think if you do it in the right way, it'll help you. I really do.

I guess so. I'm, I'm sort of processing what you just said because there is the notion of like the hustle and the grind and having to work all the time. And what you're saying is you found a way to be effective. Yeah.

Yeah. Really be effective.

Yeah. What advice do you have for other entrepreneurs?

You know, there's, there's always 15 things you could do, you know, pick the 1 or 2 that are gonna make the biggest difference. I'm going to defer now to fitness because that's my, that's my wheelhouse. But one of the things I love about fitness, and you hear me, you hear me say this on the show all the time, is it's this incredible example of life. And I know people listening right now are like, what is he talking about? All right. There's so many examples in trying to improve your fitness and health that carry over to life. Here's one. Okay, so I want to lose weight. What do I do with my diet? There's a million and one different things I could do. If I go online, I'm going to hear 50 million different opinions and what to do, what supplement to do, and the time to eat and the carbs and the fats and the whatever. Now, I've been training people for years, and I know that there's a few things you could do that'll give you 90% of what you're looking for. And the rest is like, like, like, don't focus on those little tiny things. Let's work on the big movers. Here's an example. I'll use— again, I'll use nutrition. Here's an example. If you hit your protein targets with whole natural foods— and what does that mean? Hit your target body weight in grams of protein. So if you want to weigh 120 pounds, eat 120 pounds— grams of protein a day and prioritize it in your meals. Here's why that's so powerful. The data is very clear on this. Kills your appetite. So it's extremely satiety-producing. You will eat less calories because of that. Number 2, protein is muscle-producing, muscle-sparing, and seems to have a fat loss effect on a calorie-per-calorie basis. So those 2 things right there make it very powerful. Now, I could tell people, cut your calories, or I could say, do this one thing, and then you'll probably— you'll most likely see a significant percentage of the results you're looking for instead of all these little small whatever things. I feel like business is like that too. There are a couple things you could do that will have a massive impact. And there's all these little tiny things that you, you know, you can focus on. So let's be efficient. Let's just try and be efficient. So we've got 50 things on the table. What's the one thing that's going to take the least amount of effort that's going to produce the best result? Let's master that. Let's start there.

Yes. First of all, preach. Yes, I totally agree. And I love what you just said. And, um, you know, sort of keeping the most important thing is the most important thing.

Yes.

But then discerning what that is, I think can be challenging. You need to give yourself some time to step back and reflect. Do you take time to step back and reflect to make sure that you and the business are on track?

Yeah. Oh yeah, we do that all the time. This is, this is always a topic of conversation. I'll give you an example. When I ran gyms, right? When I would run gyms, there were a few, there were a few things that you, levers that you would try to pull to increase the revenue of the gym. Like one of 'em was, you know, get more people through the door or make more appointments, get more people to show up, close more deals, uh, rate, you know, and, uh, sell more per sale. Okay. The easiest lever in most gyms to pull is the simple sell more per sale. I don't have to get more lead. I don't do anything else.. But typically when people sell a gym membership, it's like your enrollment, enrollment fee and your monthly dues. Well, what if I could really communicate the value of personal training, which has tremendous value? And by the way, there's lots of downstream effects of that. Get a personal trainer, get better results, more likely to bring us more other, you know, members and that stuff. But that's an easy lever, like boom, 40% increase in, you know, point of sale, you know, dollars produced. Easy. I could focus on that or I could do the whole let's get more people in the door, which is nothing wrong with that. But boy, that takes a lot of of marketing and effort and we gotta go out and we gotta get leads and we gotta talk to a million people. Or the people we're talking to, we're not talking about this incredibly valuable thing called personal training, which will double the per sale that we're getting on every time we close a deal. Let's pull that one lever. That's what I would do when I go into a gym. I'd look at the, and it was almost always that. It's like, oh, we're just gonna present more effectively, plus they'll get better results and then we'll get more leads as a result of that anyway. So yeah, we do that all the time with the business.

What are some of the things in your business now? Which you say are the most important things that you really want to focus your attention on?

Our current listeners, our current customers, how can we provide them with even more value? Yeah, that's the big one. So like this coaching program that we put out, right? So our, our fitness programs— so fitness programs are for the average consumer. You buy it, you go online, it tells you what to do, your exercises, your sets, there's videos. That you watch that demonstrate it. The average cost of one of them is, let's say, $150. If it's on sale, $70. Okay, so that's the average per unit, whatever. When we provide more value to those people, they end up buying more of our programs versus trying to get more people to come through the door. So our average consumer, okay, our average person owns something like 5 programs.

Oh, Wow.

Okay. That's unheard of in the fitness program space. The fitness program space, people buy one program and they're out. Ours, people come in, we provide them value, we have a forum, we answer their questions, we have this podcast that's dedicated towards helping them out. They buy a program, they get another program, they get another program, they get another program. So now they can follow programs year long. Then another example was our, our coaching, our digital coaching program. We knew that our most fervorous fans were trainers and coaches. They're not at all the largest percentage of our fans, cuz how many people are trainers and coaches? But they were definitely the most fervorous. And we knew this cuz we do these live events and I'd say, who works in the fitness industry? And 80% of them would raise their hand. And we know this through the messages that we get and stuff. So, and we were not catering to them. So we put out a, a course for trainers and coaches that teaches them how to build their business and It was a $1,000 course. So instead of a $100 fitness program, here's a $1,000 super valuable course. It's gonna touch like, you know, 8% of our total listeners. Well, we launched it and we, we did more, we did more with that one launch than we had ever done with, I, we could combine the last 3 launches that we did with fitness programs because we, we saw this opportunity with the small segment of our audience that was just so fervorous. And then of course that can turn into, menu. I think, how are we going to provide them with even more value now, right? So now we have a forum for them, and every month we have a speaker that goes in there from our space, whether it's nutrition or longevity or health or psychology, or even we have a CPA that's going on there because they're all learning how to build their own businesses and they have questions about that kind of stuff. And we'll just continue, continue to do that, continue to provide them with more and more value because they're already Customers. We don't have to make them customers, they're already customers. So why not? Let's see what else we can give 'em.

Yeah, I love that. I love the way you segmented that group and also just realized that they had certain need, they had a certain kind of passion for you, but then they had a certain kind of set of needs, which by the way, as an executive coach myself, I also teach coaches how to build their business and how to sell. Yeah. Because to your point, and I, I actually caught, I was in, I was in Davos when you did that 3-day free training. But so it was pretty late at night, but I just like popped in to see what it was like because I was really interested how you You broke down the business of being a personal trainer. As you know, when I teach coaches how to build their business, it's the same kind of thing. It's like they come into the business because they wanna help people, because they want to help people, they wanna make a difference, they wanna make an impact, which I can totally relate to. That's why I became a coach too. But you're not gonna be able to do that unless you can build a business.

Yes.

And I feel like that's the message that you all have really been portraying to the trainers and coaches that you've been working with. Because otherwise you can't build a sustainable business. You can't help anybody.

No.

So like, it's not like, oh, getting your hands dirty with money. No, no. Money is like an important part of the aspect. Building a business is an important part of the aspect.

Yeah. So again, this is a lesson we learned as trainers. You have to, you have to learn how to communicate a message effectively so that people adopt it. Here's an example, and this is all connected. Here's an example. We know this as fitness professionals that when you work out and you eat a particular way or whatever, Your primary goal should be to improve your health. Like, that's just— we want you to be healthy. Okay, now people, they say that's what they want when they hire a trainer coach, right? But that's not really— really want is they want to look good, right? They just want to look better. I want a rounder butt, I want abs, I want nice arms, whatever. How am I going to sell you the right way when that other guy is selling you the wrong way and he's telling you what you think you want to hear? Like, he's saying to you you'll get an amazing butt and abs in 30 days if you take this pill and follow my program. Meanwhile, I'm over here saying it's gonna take a year. You gotta change your behaviors. This is the only sustainable— this is really the sustainable way to do it. Like, how am I gonna beat that? I have to sell my message more effectively. So what do I say? But which, by the way, this is a true statement. If you chase aesthetics, you lose your health, and then your aesthetics are gone. If you chase health, you'll get the aesthetics. It'll be a reflection of your health. You'll get both. So all they did was sell it better. Now the consumer listening goes, well, I just wanna look good. What he said makes a lot of sense, so I'm gonna hear what he has to say. Okay, so how does this connect to trainers and coaches? Trainers and coaches are allergic to sales training.

So true.

I don't, yeah, I don't wanna sell. I don't wanna sell. I just wanna help people. It's like, okay, the truth is, and this is the message that we communicate, if the most effective coaches as defined by coaches who get— whose clients get the best, most sustainable results are the coaches that are the best salespeople. So people go, how— what do you mean by that? They sell the most packages? They sell the most supplements or whatever? No. If I'm training you and you're seeing me twice a week and we're working together for 6 months or a year, whatever, I'm constantly selling you on why and how you should change fundamental behaviors. You want to change your diet? Your diet is a part of who you are. And for people listening right now, this is a very true statement. Food is not just fuel. I know you're going to hear the fitness fanatics on the internet say that. These are all dysfunctional people themselves. Food is not just fuel. That's stupid because we celebrate with food, we connect with food, we have food that we eat at the ballpark and food we eat at the movie theaters. And you know, there's breakfast foods and lunch foods We almost don't ever eat just because we're hungry. In fact, most of us never really feel true hunger because we're in this wonderful time in society where food's so plentiful. We eat for lots and lots of, of different things. So now I'm going to communicate to you why you're going to change this big part of you. I got to sell it to you, and I got to sell it to you every time we meet in subtle ways. In more direct ways. Sometimes I don't say anything and I wait until the opportunity arises or have you come up with the idea that I think that, you know, I think you should come up with type of deal. So if you want to be a good coach or trainer, you've got to be the best salesperson around. You're constantly selling people on why they need to do things in permanent ways that they, they, they say they want to do, but they, they don't yet. They don't yet. So you gotta learn sales.

Yes. Love that. Hallelujah. It's so true. And I would just extend that to entrepreneurs, right? Basically we're all selling all the time.

Yes.

Right. We have to just understand that. And I think embrace that. And I think that entrepreneurs, founders, especially product-based founders, really just think like, oh, the beauty of my product is gonna somehow like take over. It doesn't really work that way. So how do you, what advice do you have for founders, for trainers, coaches, founders? Anyone listening to this podcast about how to learn to be an effective communicator around sales?

Well, first off, if, if, if you are explaining your product or service and it's taking you 30 minutes, there's a big problem.

Mm-hmm.

I can't tell you how many times. So we also invest in companies as angel investors, and that's a red flag. Like I'll sit down with someone and they have a product and we're sitting down and 15 minutes in the conversation, I don't know what, what, what do you do? I still don't understand. What you do, you should be able to explain what you do in like 2 seconds, literally, or 2 sentences. You should be able to say, here's a problem, here's a solution, here's how we do it differently, very quickly. So that's number 1. Number 2, can you communicate it to the person in a way to where they understand and are motivated by it, or they see the value in changing directions or moving in your direction? And you have to understand what what drives that consumer. So I have a product that simplifies the process of creating a will or something like that, right? I know how, what a pain in the butt it is. You gotta go see a lawyer and it costs all this money or whatever. What's the pain point? Like you wanna make it fast. So here we go. I got this product. You do it, it's free, it's fast. How's it possible? Well, there's new laws that allow me to do this and we've created a product that, you know, whatever. So find, find those things right there, and then you're golden. If you don't find those things, you could literally discover the Fountain of Youth. And like, nobody's going to—

nobody knows.

Nobody knows, right? And again, it's— I can't tell you how many times I've talked to people that they even tell me and they don't know. I sit there and I don't— and I'll stop them. I've done this many times. I'll stop them, say, look, we've been talking for 15 minutes. I still don't know what your company is and what it does. I understand some features, but I don't understand. Can you try again in 30 seconds? Explain it to me. And you can tell they never practiced, or—

right.

And if you can't do this, I'll say this: if you can't do this as a founder, then hire somebody who can, because not everybody does this very effectively. Hire somebody who can do this for you so you have someone on your team that can go make this happen. If all your passion is in creating this incredible product.

Yeah.

Hire someone that can sell it for you.

That's great. I love that. Or also grow, learn.

Yes.

Because if you can't do it the first time, it's not like it's a sin or a shame. No. It's more like, hey, you can grow and you can learn. Just like you all became better podcasters, right? Over the years. And I think I would say probably become better leaders, better entrepreneurs is, you know, I know that your background, you were at 24 Hour Fitness and you were running that gym and then you had your own studio. Did that teach you management skills? Skills like delegation, like giving feedback, like holding people accountable. And is that something that you use now in the, in the Mind Pump world?

Yeah, I love the gym industry because it's so dynamic, so fast. The sales process is so quick. You see someone, they buy or they don't. You have a large staff. You know, when I managed big boxes, it was like 30 people. So I had to really learn how to lead. Leading by example is one of the best ways to do so. You know, it's like you're on your horse and you're in battle and it's like, charge, and you stay back. Or you get the leader who's like, charge, and then goes out in front and everybody's inspired to follow. Listening to people's needs but not compromising the direction of the company. Setting in the beginning, setting the standards and being very clear, which is also important for training people. So it's like, hey, here's here's our policy, here's what's going to happen if this doesn't happen. Because otherwise that conversation is impossible to have when it finally does occur. Don't compromise, you know, the direction. Be very— you know, I've never fired anybody who didn't kind of know that they were going to be fired. It wasn't a surprise. They were like, yeah, I know, here we are. Like, that's— I think that's how it should work. I don't think it's like one of those like, hey, surprise, you know, definitely, you know, we don't like the way you're doing things, you know, type of deal. Because communication and, you know, was always there. And then, you know, one of my mentors taught me this. This sounds silly, but one of my mentors taught me this, and I think it's super valuable. He said, praise in public, reprimand in private. A lot of managers do the opposite. They reprimand in public. We're in a meeting. Let's talk about John and how much he sucks and what he did wrong. And then when everybody's gone, you know, they'll bring someone over. Hey, great job on that, whatever. No, no, no. People like to be recognized by their peers. And then when there's a problem, do it one-on-one because that extra shame and embarrassment or whatever isn't going to— isn't going to help anybody.

Yeah. Did you just know that? Or, I mean, you were pretty young when you started in the gym industry, and I think you were pretty young when you were managing other people. I'm sure you must have made mistakes. Yeah, that's how we learn.

I had— I was very blessed. I had some incredible mentors.

Okay.

Yeah. One of my first mentors when I was in the business, he was also a young manager. He taught me that. That, you know, and he was very good at that. When there was a problem with someone, he would always take them aside, talk to them alone. And when they did something great, he made sure to let them know in front of their peers. So he's the one that told me that— reprimand in private, praise in public. He also taught me one of the number one rules in sales, which is use your ears and mouth in proportion. Listen twice as much as you talk.

That's great.

I was a very energetic like, you know, 18-year-old kid, super hyped and excited. And, you know, I did very well with my sales, but there was also this like piece where like 10% of the people would hate me when they leave. And he sat in on one of them and where the person got up and walked out and he told me that, he said, Sal, you gotta use your ears and mouth proportion. Selling is not telling. Like, you gotta listen more because that person was telling you what they wanted and you just kept trying to tell them what they needed. So that was another big one. And then since then, I've worked with some incredible mentors and just kind of observed how they worked with people and what they did.

Yeah, that's really great. Now, around here, who is the one who manages the team? How many employees do you have, by the way?

I think we're now like 15 full-time employees. We have contractors.

Yeah, yeah.

As well, I would say Adam probably is the most hands-on with the business. I would say he's most like business-oriented. Doug works very closely with the editing team and the producer. But, you know, we're all kind of here together, working together to, to some extent. But I would say Adam probably has— definitely has his hands on it mostly.

Yeah, that makes sense. Now I want to come back to, you know, your relationship with coaches and trainers, and, um, specifically something you've talked about on the show, and I'm sure you've talked about in your program with them, which is imposter syndrome. Yeah. And so I'm curious, maybe you could talk about imposter syndrome with trainers and coaches and how that plays out, and then I want to kind of hear some advice from you, and also maybe your own experience with imposter imposter syndrome, because that's something that so many entrepreneurs feel, this feeling of imposter syndrome. So what are your reflections on that?

Yeah. You know, one of the best ways— I'll use the example of public speaking. Everybody's afraid of public speaking, or just when you meet someone and you're nervous. One of the— this is funny too. You would, you would think this doesn't work, but it's like, it's like a magic button that reduces the intensity of the negative feelings that you're having in that moment is to tell the person that you're Anxious. Like, you're giving a speech. Yeah. And you're like, oh my God, I'm so nervous. And you get up there and you say, I apologize ahead of time, everybody. I am like, public speaking is really scary to me. And it's like, oh yeah, everybody's just like, oh, you know, same thing for trainers and coaches. You tell your client, hey, I'm new, I have a deep passion for this, but God, I get nervous with this, but I'm so excited. And but I will tell you this, like, I will learn and I will grow. And the stuff I do know, I definitely know. You know, as a leader, you definitely want to lead with strength and confidence, but don't portray yourself as this because you're not, by the way. Nobody's like this. You don't know everything. And people know that. People know that. And if they did believe that, and the second you show a crack in the armor, your effectiveness is gone. So just tell people like, wow, this is my first time leading a big company. I'm very nervous, but also very excited. Here's the direction we want to go. And then when you go, you go, you, you, you move forward. So put it out there. By the way, everybody feels that. That's the other thing too. It's like, I think we, we feel like we're all by ourselves. Everybody has that feeling of imposter syndrome. Continue to learn. That's the antidote is to continue to learn and then be humble, real, and authentic. That's the other antidote. I think if you do both of those, that imposter syndrome's not that big of a deal. It is when you feel like you're the only one.

Yeah.

And nobody knows and oh my God, or whatever, but just, just say it.

I think what you're getting at is also shame. Yes. The idea that we hold it inside of us and we can't, it's a secret that we can't tell anybody. And I think that really festers inside of you and it's very challenging to overcome that.

It is. Boy, shame's a big one. Yeah. You know, I, I, I do a lot of work on that, not for the business, but more on a personal. Level. And, you know, I was working with a coach. And we— there was an example that I, you know, something, you know, something I thought about years ago, and it's like, oh, I cringe when I think about that or whatever. And she said, you know, Sal, you're, you're looking at it with your current wisdom. Like, you have a current level of knowing. And now you're looking back and you're judging it through this current level of knowing like that. You didn't know that back then. And you were trying to do the right thing. So there's empathy there. I think a lot of us confuse— we think shame is required for growth. No, it's a hindrance to growth. Not feeling shameful is not the same as not identifying a problem that needs to be fixed. You can look at an issue and say, I need to work on that. But what you do is you add layers on top of that, which is, I need to work on that. What an idiot. I'm so dumb. How could I? Oh my gosh. How embarrassing. Now what you're doing is just, it's like you're walking up a hill and now you're just adding rocks to the backpack. Like, I'm an idiot. Or, you know, I can't believe I did that. Ooh, how embarrassing. Oh, and that's like you're moving even slower versus, wow, okay, that's a mistake. I need to work on that. And let's, let's do that.

Yeah, that is very wise advice. How did you learn to do that yourself though? It's challenging.

Challenging. It's, yeah, it's a super, super challenge. There's areas I'm not as good at it on, I'd say, as a Parenting. That's one that I struggle the most with. There's a lot of challenges with really trying to be the best father that I can be, seeing how I was in the past. Oh my God, could I? Because what's added on top of that is my kids suffered, or I just didn't do the right, you know, type of thing. So I would be lying if I said I didn't struggle with it, but I'm much better with it with like, like business and, you know, working with others.

Yeah.

In the training aspect.

Yeah. I think we all need to give ourselves more self-forgiveness.

We're human. I don't know. I mean, you know, we're all human. We're all— if you're not making mistakes, you're not growing and you're not trying. Okay. You know, I don't— I do agree that there's a piece of the whole, like, celebrating mistakes that is true. I don't mean celebrating mistakes like, yay, right?

Keep doing more of those mistakes.

No, no, no, no. It's more like, I know where I— okay, I know where I can I think I know where I can change something. So let me try again. Okay. That wasn't it. Okay. I think it might be this thing. Let me try again. Falling in love with that journey, I think will continue moving in the right direction. Again, I'm going to use fitness. Everybody sucks when they first start working out. Actually, you're always going to suck. I'll be honest with you. If you're, if you're a fitness fanatic, you're always seeking out new ways to suck in the gym because those are the ways that give you the best progress. So it's like, am I gonna do these exercises that I've mastered or am I gonna learn a new one that I'm not so good at? You know? So let me do that one cuz that one's gonna gimme the most progress or as we say in our space, the best gains or, or whatever. So, you know, that's a logical— I, I, and I, and I'm speaking from the logical standpoint, but I know in our bodies we can feel very different. But I think stepping outside of that and saying like, it sucks to feel this way. This is part of the process. I like the process. I like the process. It's the process. If you fall in love with the process, then it kind of takes care of itself.

Yeah, that is very wise. I know that I've heard you say on the show, it's a journey with no destination.

Yeah, there was one, and the guys were asking me about this. I was on a podcast and I made a quote that it's the most viral thing that we've ever put out. So they tease me about it. But yeah. I said, the man who loves walking will walk further than the man who loves the destination. That's true.

Yeah.

If you love the process and the journey, there's no end. There's no end in sight. There's no ceiling to the growth or the potential. So maybe we should stop trying so hard or focusing so hard on how much we love this goal that, you know, might might or might not happen, and instead figuring out a way and focusing on how do I fall in love with this process? It's not easy, by the way. I don't think it's natural. I think it's much more natural to think of the million dollars we're going to make or the 30 pounds we're going to lose or the whatever, which by the way, once you get there, it's not going to give you what you think. Everybody thinks that this, oh, when I hit that, it's going to be this most incredible. No, it's not. I remember we had Mark Manson on, author of Yeah, yeah. The Subtle Art of Not Giving a Fuck. And he— his dream was to write a bestseller. And when he did, he hit that, that milestone and he had, he had a year of depression afterwards because it wasn't what he had conjured up, you know, in his mind. It never is, right? So I think focusing on and figuring out how can I fall in love with the process? I don't have the answer for you, but I do know it starts with being present in the process.

Yes.

Being in the process, liking, seeing, the meaning, the value of what's happening, what are we doing? And then once you do that, why would you stop? You love it. So let's keep going. It's like eating healthy to lose weight versus I like eating healthy. Could you imagine how easy it would be to be lean, for example, if you just loved eating healthy? So why don't we figure that out instead of the end result?

I love it. I love it. And I love all the metaphors. I mean, I'm also somebody I'm somebody who thinks of strength and fitness as like a metaphor for life in so many ways. So I can relate to that. I would just say also for entrepreneurs, you know, the, the, the founders that I work with, when they're at a certain stage, it's like, this is the biggest company I've ever run in my life. Like, this is a first for me. And you have to keep falling in love with being a newbie, with being not knowing, with being able to learn and, and take on new skills. Otherwise you're not gonna be able to manage a company that is the largest you've ever managed before.

Yeah. You know, it's funny too, using fitness as a metaphor. —anybody who's worked out a long time will tell you this—when you first learn an exercise, the fastest strength gains happen within a very— within a relatively short period of time. So if you've never— let's say you've been working out for a while, but you've never done a barbell squat. So instead you do things like leg press and, you know, lunges or whatever. You never do a barbell squat. And then you're like, you know, I'm going to try barbell squatting. So you get on the bar. Of course, you're not going to be able to you know, maximum, lift as much weight as you, as you could, like you do with the other exercises you practice, because it's a new skill. I've never done this before. But then what happens is the central nervous system starts to adapt very quickly. You learn the skill, and then the weight on the bar just goes up, up, up, up, up, up, up in a very short period of time. Everybody knows this. Those, they call them newbie gains. Okay, this is how all skills are. Like, when you first learn a skill, the first 6 months of it, it's like, oh my gosh. And then at some point it's like it slows down and you start to kind of like, okay, like, you know, the progress is now at a, at a percent at a time. So look at it that way. If you're an entrepreneur, I wanna make really fast progress in short periods of time. Let me go find things that are new to me that I don't understand or don't know.

I love that. That's so motivating. As opposed to the same things over and over that you then get good at.

Yes. And you're already good at 'em. You can go up, what, 1%? I love that.

I love that. You know, one other thing that I work a lot with my clients on is executive presence, the idea of owning the room, being able to have sort of confidence and posture in the right sort of way of showing up in a room. And long ago I worked with a client and they said, oh, he has to work on his executive presence. And I could see what they meant, but I was sort of trying to put my finger on what's the behavior around executive presence that he needs to work on. He needs to really work on. And someone just once told me, he's not in shape. That is what is going on. By the way, he was not overweight. He just was not in shape. It made me realize how much like physicality and strength and just confidence in your body translates into executive presence, which translates into leadership. Do you have any thoughts on that? Any reflections?

I had a client, I had a client years ago, Jim was his name, self-made, extremely successful gentleman, rough past. He grew up really hard, was a high school dropout, and then he became very, very successful in business. And he actually taught me something. I asked him, I said, what's one of the number one lessons you could teach me? I was only 19 years old at the time. And he said, you know, ask me how many times I failed. That was what he told me. I remember we had this great conversation about trying and failing, that kind of stuff. But I remember him hiring me, me training him, And I remember him coming in. It was like probably 3 months into him working with me. And he came in and he's like, I remember he hits the table. Damn it, Sal. I said, what? And he goes, I'll be damned. I am making more sales and I'm more effective in my meetings when I meet with people because I feel so damn good. My posture is better. I feel stronger. He's like, it's just making a huge difference. And I remember as a 19-year-old kid, I was like, oh, well, Oh, yeah, I guess that kind of makes sense. Like, to anybody listening right now, like, how effective are you when you're sick versus when you feel just on fire? Well, you can make those on-fire feelings much more common by improving your health and your fitness. Now, the other people around you can read it. It's not just the way you look, by the way. I've been around, you know, stage presentation competitors who are so depleted when they get on stage, you know, they're shredded, but they're dying because they've eaten 1,200 calories for 12 weeks and worked out for, you know, 3 hours a day. They don't have that presence. They're not very healthy. They sat in the room right now, wouldn't— just because they look buffed or whatever it is. So it's really about the energy, the vitality that you're presenting. People feel that when they're talking to you, and you can very much improve that. The data on this, by the way, is another meta-analysis just came out, not to go off on a tangent, but this is another one. We've got several now that show this exercise is as or more effective at treating the most common forms of depression and anxiety as psychotherapy and as pharmacological therapy. So as, as drugs, as or more effective, I say more because these are all relatively short studies. You extend them out and what you'll find is, I think, far better results. There's no downregulation receptors and building a tolerance and whatever. You just continue to get better and better. So, and then again, look at the data on successful entrepreneurs. A, I think, 2 or 3 times higher rate of consistency with exercise among them than with the average population. Yeah. So I think they, I think they might have figured that out. Yeah. So yeah, like fit and healthy. You know, it makes you feel good when you're sitting down and you're, and you're talking to people. It also makes you more comfortable to be vulnerable because you don't feel so weak.

Yeah, yeah, that's a great point.

The confident can afford to be, you know, who I would hear that a lot from was women. When I would train women as a man, I didn't understand this. I do now. I have two daughters, and so I get this. But I remember I would train women, and, you know, they come in with the typical goals— weight loss, whatever.. And I remember this used to happen all the time. They would come to me after training with me for a couple months and they'd say, you know, strength training just makes me feel so empowered. Like, I don't know what you mean by that, but okay. You know, and I remember once I asked that, I asked a little deeper, like, what do you mean by empowered? And you know, one of my clients said, like, I don't have to ask for help when I'm lifting certain things. I feel strong when I'm moving in my body. I don't feel so scared, you know, when I'm, you know, walking down the street or whatever. I just feel empowered. I feel so much better. So yeah, that feeling in your body, I mean, that translates.

Yeah, that is very powerful. And I would just also add that women are socialized to be little. Yes. Little, little, little, and eat less and less and less. Yes. And as a woman who's into strength training, I realize there's something else to look for. Like, oh, there's something, some other way score myself, like heavier numbers on the barbell or being able to put my suitcase in the overhead bin without asking for any help, not wanting any help. And one thing I'll say about you and your show is that I feel like you're so supportive of women not having those little pink dumbbells, right? And also eating. Yes. And the idea that it's not about being little and shrinking down. There's a lot of carryover to women's leadership, too. Obviously, if you're sort of focused on shrinking yourself, you're not focused on on, you know, being able to lead other people.

No. And the irony of this— and here comes the sales part— the irony of this is the way that women want to look is much better accomplished and much more sustainable through the approach that we talk about, which is strength training, feeding your body, fueling the muscle growth, speeding up your metabolism so it's easier to stay lean. So you don't have to like, oh my God, I can't have an extra, you know, cookie, otherwise I just gain, you know, 5 pounds. Like, the approach we're talking about also will make you look the way that you want to look. But it's also— I mean, it also is amazing. Imagine not tying your mood to the scale, because now you understand that body fat takes up more space than muscle on a pound-for-pound basis. In other words, you could lose no weight, gain muscle, but lose body fat. Scale says the same, but you're smaller, you're tighter, better shape. Oh, and I can eat more now because muscle burns a lot of calories. Like, what a great message. Or how about this? You know, instead of going to the gym to constantly try to burn everything off and beat yourself up, why don't you go to the gym and see if you lift more weight? Oh, that feels different. That's a completely different approach. This feels good, especially because it's the opposite, like you said, of the message that women have been communicated to, which, by the way, I feel like we're making a dent finally. I just started working out in a commercial gym again recently. And half of the free weight area is women now. Yeah, it wasn't like that before. Yeah, you know, when I first started in gyms, you maybe saw one woman in the free weight area. Now, I swear to God, this morning I'm in there, 7 AM, working out, and half of the people in there working out were these like really fit young and older women working out. Half. It was, it was amazing.

Yeah, that really is amazing. So just a couple more questions. What do you wish you had known you wish you would've known earlier on your entrepreneurial journey? Ooh, gosh.

What do I wish I would've known earlier? That's a really good question. I would say letting go of the things I'm not good at a little bit easier and really just diving into the things that I'm good at and finding ways to be better through learning different skills. I kind of knew that, but it was a little bit of a, I'd say a little bit of a struggle. Yeah.

Where did you let go of?

Oh, when you finally realized, you know, We're all somewhat involved in the business, the final decisions of the business, but Adam, Adam runs that and, um, he's good at it. So do it, go for it, you know? And it's, it's helped the business tremendously. So that one, that, that, that's a big one right there. And I think sometimes we have a tough time letting go of certain pieces because I don't know, control, I guess. Yeah.

Also you think you should be able to do that.

Yeah. You should be able to do all aspects. Yes. Yeah. And I could do it, but he does it great. He does it better.

Yeah. Yeah. Anything else that you wish you'd done earlier?

No. I mean, I would say we really did understand that we got to keep practicing at this. So people ask us why we have 5 episodes a week that we drop. Literally the reason for that was we wanted to get better faster. So it's like, well, we suck. We'll suck less long if we do a lot. So let's just keep doing that. It, it's safe to say now that we don't suck anymore. I'd say we're, we're on our way to becoming great, but we definitely don't suck like we used to.

Agree. Agree. Don't suck. Yeah, definitely. And last question, what advice do you have for other founders, other entrepreneurs as they grow into leaders?

As you grow into a leader, remember a couple things. Everything's your fault. In other words, when something goes wrong, see if there's something that, that you could do next time to help prevent that from happening again. Take on that responsibility. When things go right, look out to your team, see who you could praise, make sure you praise them in public. And then lastly, again, from the fitness side, the more you can optimize and improve your health within reason— and I say within reason because people can get so focused and fanatical about that, that actually becomes a detriment— but the more you can improve and optimize your health, the more effective you're going to be in every other aspect of your life. A healthy healthy version of you can handle the storms better and will have better success when things are going good as well. So make yourself the healthy version of you. It's just going to help everything out.

I love it. So thank you so much for joining me today, for inviting me into your beautiful studio, and truly for the work that you guys do, which is so meaningful to so many people and certainly has really shifted my perspective around fitness. And I want to say to everybody out there, lift heavy weights, and listen to Mind Pump. You're gonna love it.

Thank you so much.

Thank you. Thanks for listening to From Startup to Grownup. If you like what you heard, give it a review on Apple Podcasts so other people can find it. And if you know of a founder or someone else who is meant to be on this podcast, drop me a line through my website, alisacohn.com.