#15: Ilan Twig, TripActions

Welcome to From Startup to Grownup, the podcast. My name is Alisa Cohn. I'm an executive coach, an angel investor, and the author of From Startup to Grownup. Each week I talk to founders, creators, advisors, investors, and builders of all kinds about their insights and experiences in going from startup to grownup. This is episode number 15, and I'm thrilled to welcome Elon Twig to the show. Elan is the co-founder and CTO of TripActions, and this is the second company he co-founded with Ariel Cohen. We discussed how their first company got acquired after 9 months and why Elan knew that he'd found his next company with Ariel. We also talk about how the pandemic obviously threatened to bring their business to zero and how they leaned on their mission and their culture to create 80 new features and an entirely new tool during this incredibly difficult time. We talked about the nightmares that Elon had about not being able to code, about how a surprising diagnosis helped him understand his leadership style. This is a value-packed and intimate discussion. So please enjoy my conversation with Elon Twig. Elon, welcome to the show. It is great to have you here today. I wanna start by asking you, um, I wanna start by going back to, you know, this traumatic moment for all of us. You know, TripActions was founded in March 2015 by you and Ariel Cohen, your CEO, and you guys were up and to the right. You were like a rocket ship. And then suddenly for all of us, a global pandemic broke out. And for you, a travel business, that was like really more intense than even for everybody else. I guess I'm wondering, can you bring us back to that moment where you realized that there was going to be a real problem, that this pandemic was gonna cause a real problem?

Yeah, absolutely. So, hey, thanks. Nice to see you again, and thanks for having me on your podcast. Yeah, you know, having a travel company when a global pandemic breaks, it's an experience for sure. And when Ariel and I started the company, we did think a lot. We started it rather late, I think, compared to a lot of other founders. Both of us were in our very, very early 40s. When we started it. So there's advantages and disadvantages, but definitely one of the advantages is we thought a lot about competitors and competitions and how can we make sure that what we do will stay unique. How can we shape the culture in a way such that the company will stay always sharp and always on top of the new things, and, and in other words, will not be disrupted. And I think that we, we did cover A lot. Like, I think we covered everything. And the proof was that the first 4.5 to 5 years almost, things went really well and we kept growing at a really, really insane pace of around 20 to 25% growth every month.

Every month? Yeah. Yeah, it's intense.

It's intense. It's very intense. But yeah, the one thing that we haven't thought about that could disrupt us or stop us is a global pandemic. We haven't thought about that. What if there would be a global pandemic? There would be a virus where people will be afraid to fly, borders would be shut, countries would be isolated, people will not leave their house. We haven't thought about something like that. And the impact was, it was very intense. January, February went really well. We kept seeing the crazy growth that we used to see. And then within 4 to 6 weeks, everything went down to zero. And I don't think that these things have— something like that happened in the past. There's been, you know, recessions or slowdowns. Companies, you know, that used to grow 2x did not grow at all. But here we're talking about forget the growth. We already had a very solid revenue stream that was growing at a very high pace every month. And within 6 weeks, it went down to 0.000, not even close to zero or around zero, zero. So what do you do? First, I learned a lot about, I think, human behavior in this time because I knew about this virus back in November. I heard about it. It was in China in a city called Wuhan. And it's just that, okay, so it's in Wuhan, China. If you told me if the same thing started in November of 2019 in Manhattan, New York, or Paris, or London, or Tel Aviv, I would probably say, oh my God, there is a virus. But it was in Wuhan, China. So, okay, you can tell me Mars, to me it's the same. And it's just, I think, you know, a lot of people around me, it's like no one was concerned. And I remember that I started to get concerned, and there was 75,000 cases in Wuhan, China. And I remember that people started to get concerned when there were 130 cases in Milan, in Italy. Oh my God, there's a virus in the world! What's going on? And the next day it's 400, and the next day is 1,000. So yes, I think that it took some time for me and also for, I think, a lot of people to realize what's going on.

Yeah.

And to realize that it's a real thing and it's not on Mars and it's right here and the world is one big, you know, town or village. And if it's in Wuhan, it's everywhere. And yes, so there was this, I think, I would say about a week, maybe 10 days of transforming my— the way that I was thinking about it, or transitioning from there is something going on on the other side of the planet to reality is changing right here, right now, and it's a big, big, big change. And I think once the transition was done, and in my head it was okay, it's happening, when I concluded that no one will be on an airplane, it's when I saw I saw a 25% decline in bookings. I knew that it's going to get to zero. At that point, we started to function. These 7 to 10 days, we didn't know what to do. It's like the world is changing. We don't know. We haven't really accepted it. We haven't really acknowledged it fully. And so we haven't done anything about it. Once we concluded, or at least that's how I remember it really vividly in my head, Once I told myself it's happening, like what you see in Wuhan is just a preview, like it's everywhere and no one will book a flight, all flights will be cancelled, and it's just a matter of time that, that countries will start shutting down the borders and make the whole concept of airlines obsolete. It's just a matter of— and I think it took maybe 2 or 3 weeks after for all of these things to happen. But I was at least a bit more ready for that because everything happened very quickly. And then the biggest question, I guess, is, so what do you do?

Right.

What do you do when your company's revenue goes down to zero in 4 weeks?

Right. You know, but actually, Alain, the first question for me is, how did you feel? Did you feel like everything we've worked for is like going to go to nothing? Or did you feel like, oh, we'll figure it out?

Not even for a slight second did I feel that. I'll tell you, I think that the journey that you go as an entrepreneur and as a co-founder is a journey that is full of challenges and full of moments where you feel like you hit a mountain that now you need to cross. So to me, the journey of TripActions, for example, is a journey of crossing the biggest mountain that you've ever seen, getting to the other side to then realize that there's a much bigger mountain waiting for you right there. And I think that the mindset that I have and my co-founder Ariel Cohen has is that, you know, things happen and our goal is to make it work. When we started TripActions, it was borderline stupid. I mean, it was borderline stupid. I think that a lot of startups, when you start them, if you ask people from the industry about whatever the new idea is, the new approach, they will tell you, you know, it's a, I don't know, good luck. And that's what we heard. Good luck with that. We heard it from experts in the field back in late 2014. Like, you know, just take your talent and apply it somewhere else. That, that things like that, very clear that there's no confusion. But that's what it is. It's a, as long as you keep the fine line between being stupid and being naive. I think, I think being naive is where the magic happens. And if you are naive and you're not biased, you don't have the biases that all people from that industry already have. And that's why they don't start new companies. They don't start something new because that's how they think. And that's what makes them really good at what they do. I think if you are naive enough, that's where you can create space for a lot of innovation. So yes, Ariel and I had the idea. We were really naive. I had no idea how complicated and complex the travel market is. It's very complicated. To book a flight, it's a complicated thing. It's not an API call. Which I assumed. And in many ways, if I knew everything that I know today about travel, if I knew it back then, most likely I would conclude in the same way that we've been told multiple times, just go do something else. I would do something else. So yeah, so I think to get back to your question, what was crossing my mind? Did I feel like, oh my God, we are so, we're in a big problem right now? Obviously big problem, yes, but doomed, absolutely not. I guess the other thing that I can tell you about the approach to life of being an entrepreneur is you're not a victim. You never are. And with that, it means that, okay, things happen. You're not a victim. So go and figure it out. Go and figure it out. And everything can be figured out. Everything. And if you have this approach, you can really build amazing amazing products, amazing things.

Yeah, because as an entrepreneur anyway, you had to kind of beat the odds, to your point. You know, everyone told you you'll never be able to do it and you had to beat the odds. So, this feels like it was another, just another mountain or obstacle that you had to deal with. And that's great for you as a founder. And I know that you and Ariel together were, you know, sort of a team in this. But I would just say for my clients, What I experienced is that the founders, they got it just to, you said like, okay, are we still alive? Okay, good. Are our, is our company still okay? Are our employees okay? But they received a lot, you know, from their employees themselves, like, when is this gonna end and what's gonna happen? You know, looking for that certainty because employees are kind of by definition not founders. You must have also experienced that from your team. Like, when is this gonna end? Yeah. And are we gonna be okay? How did you, what did you hear from your team and how did you handle it?

Yeah, that's actually absolutely true. So the way that I experienced it, and I think that it's probably very similar to the way that my co-founder experienced it, there was this initial moment of like, what the fuck? Then there was, okay, that's what's happening. And then you become an entrepreneur again. So we had a running company. We knew that layoffs would be part of it because you have to be very responsible about the money. And if you think about it, you know, we raised money a few months before the pandemic started. So what does it mean raising money? It means that Ariel and I, CFO, but Ariel and I really as the founders, we met with people and told them, give us money and that's what we promise you. And now everything's changed, right? Because the plan obviously is changing. We will not be able to— we had zero revenue. No one booked a flight. Our business model back then was we make money when there is usage in our system. Usage is people book flights, hotels, cars, trains. That's how we make money. And it was very— it was by design like that. And the idea behind it, or the concept behind it was As long as we attach the revenue of the company to usage, we force the company to always focus, to always make sure that users use the product. So it will keep us sharp, make sure that the product is good and keep improving it and measuring the right things. And so it's a lot of thinking behind it. We didn't think about a pandemic where the product could still be amazing, but no one uses it because of a virus, not because there is a better product out there. So, but that's what happened. So we had to adjust the plans and we had to be responsible towards ourselves, towards the company, towards the board, towards the investors. We had to burn less money during this time. So everything happened simultaneously. So we did that to be more responsible with the money. And then we realized that we have a lot of travelers, TripActions employees all over the world. And now it's very difficult to manage the situation because there is no, you know, there was, there was people in Italy and Iran, I remember that. And the first country that the CDC said do not go to was Iran, followed by Italy 2 days later, followed by warnings about France and Germany and Spain 2 days later, followed by do not go there 3 days later. How do you manage it? How do you? And then if you come back, you need to quarantine. Oh, you came back last week, you still need to be in the office, at home for 7 more days because. So it was chaotic and we thought about it and then we said, holy shit or holy cow, sorry for the language. Holy cow. All of our customers experienced that thing. Some of them at a much higher scale. And it was a Friday. So we worked throughout the weekend and we created the first, we call it the Corona Dashboard, which allows business travel managers and companies to manage the travel program, where travelers are at, how to communicate with them, which countries to block so that they will not be able to book during a pandemic. And not just a pandemic, during a time where the reality changes every 2 days and the guidelines change, change every 2 days. And the way to do it was we actually connected the system to the CDC. So if the CDC says do not go to Italy, it blocks it across iOS, Android, web. No one can book a flight to Italy. If the CDC says that if you come back from Iran, you need to quarantine for 14 days, automatically communicates to travelers that are— if you are in Iran, it tells you get back home immediately. If you just came back yesterday, it will tell you you have 14 days to quarantine. And if you came back last week, it will tell you you have 7 more days to quarantine. So managing the communication when the reality changes every day, we made it basically seamless. So all— so On Monday, there was this new dashboard, and business travel managers could just say, yes, I want to do it, I want to use it. It's a checkbox. Once you do that, everything happens behind the scenes, blocking it, and you don't need to follow— you don't need to read every day what the CDC recommends and then send an email to the company, tell them, don't do this, don't fly. Yesterday I told you it's okay, now it's not okay. So what I wanted to say on this one, so first thing was be responsible about the money. And the second thing was actually, what should we do? So it was, let's do what we've done all the way as a company until the pandemic hit us. So then there was a hiccup for 7 to 10 days where we was confused, we were confused. But after that, it was clear, we need to continue to work on a product that generates value to our users. It's just what they need change. They don't need the best booking tool in the world because they don't book, but they need the best tool to manage a travel program and travelers wherever they are, take control over the situation, guide them, manage the situation. So, and this tool, obviously, uh, no company had this tool in the, in the, in the world because it's the first time that we had to deal with a situation like that. I still don't think that there is any other company other than TripActions that has this tool. And that was just V1. But now you can think of a very healthy and beefy roadmap for this dashboard. As the situation evolved, we kept beefing it up and adding more and more and more value because that's what our users needed. And, and that's what we focused on, generating value.

So it's, I mean, really you're saying so many things. I mean, it sounds like you're saying, we'll get into culture in a little bit, but like that your culture and your values were about providing value to the customer. And that also you use this downtime, if you will, this uncertainty time, and certainly downtime in the travel industry for your business to create something different. It sounds like probably you were, you were able to get your employees to rally around that. Also in the nicest way to keep them busy, right? Because everyone's like, their minds are going to terrible places and they're having a lot of stress, like all of us did at that time. But it was a way to kind of like consolidate and crystallize your employees' efforts. Is that about right?

Yeah, absolutely. Another thing that happened, so we had layoffs, but then also people left. It was a travel company and it felt like for some time that it's going down. It's a sinking ship, call it whatever you want. So people made their decision, some of them, and decided to leave. But a lot of people stayed. And those who stayed were exactly as you said, they were rallied around the mission. And it's those people that joined for the mission. And it was very clear for them what they need to do. It's like, okay, we have a mission. And that's what we are doing. And it became very clear. And when there's no confusion, you forget about, yes, there is the virus out there, but you forget, you really focus on generating value. So I think that there was an impact probably on trip actions, probably for 2 to 3 months, if I want to take into account everything, you know, when we had the layoffs, which is, it's really a terrible thing. I mean, it's really not nice. It's really, really not nice.

Yeah, talk about that a little bit, because I know that that was obviously something that happened and there was some publicized comments about the way that that happened at TripAction. So talk about that a little bit.

Let's talk about that because I definitely have a belly full of stuff. But I'll tell you what happened. I think if we look backwards now, it's very clear that all companies and all businesses, except for or minus a few exceptions like Zoom or Amazon, and there's probably a few more that flourished during this, but most businesses slowed down. It's just some of them got impacted immediately, airlines, hotels, travel agencies, TripActions, and some of them got impacted later because everything slows down. So I stay home, I don't go to a restaurant, then restaurants got impacted. Then hairdressers, hair salons, and then the entire, you know, it was just pharmacies and groceries or whatever that kept operating, but everything else was shut down. It just took some time. So we were really at the forefront of, in Silicon Valley, one of the, like, definitely a growing company, very high profile. We really were the darling of the Valley for a few years in a row. And now this company was the first company that had to respond because we had zero revenue in 4 weeks, zero.

Yeah.

We didn't have to wait for the implication 6 months later.

It wasn't confusing.

It was not confusing. And it was immediate and big.

Yeah.

Really big. So we made the decision that we have to do it. Then there was a shelter-in-place. So if there's a shelter-in-place, you do it over Zoom. Now, when you do it over Zoom, it doesn't mean that it's unhuman. It just means that it's not physically in the same room. Now, obviously, those people that we had to lay off were people that we hired. Some of them we just hired. So we wanted them to be in the company. And it was very, very, very painful to do this process. I do want to highlight a few things. Yes, we were the first company that did that. Most companies in the Valley have had to go through that a month later or 6 weeks later. And they all did it by Zoom because there was a shelter-in-place. So I really do not get those criticisms towards us. TripActions laid off over Zoom. It was either that or it's a federal offense. A, B, between me and my co-founder, we met on a one-on-one fashion over Zoom with all of the 260 people that we had to lay off, all of them, because we care. On top of that, there was a virus out there. In the first few weeks, you know, you don't really know what this virus is. And I paid a lot of attention. I sanitized everything. I got the mail, I sanitized the mail. Do I sanitize it now? Absolutely not.

Right. We all had to sanitize our groceries. I mean, it was a different time.

Yeah, groceries was a different time. Right. So it was scary. Definitely was more scary. But yeah, I just remember that The beginning was, was, was definitely, the beginning was different. It was definitely different. But yeah, I think that when we look for a look on what happened, all companies had to do that.

Yeah.

And it doesn't, it doesn't make it a pleasant experience. No, it's a terrible experience, but it makes it a, I think that it was not I don't think that anyone should have been shocked or surprised to see a company, a travel agency that gets to zero revenue in 4 weeks, have, you know, has to respond to that somehow.

Right.

That's why I found it puzzling back then. But, you know, but it's noise. It was noise. It did not confuse us for a second.

Yeah, I think, and I think your point about being a high-profile company, you know, the Sun, can tan and make you look golden brown and beautiful, and the sun can also burn, right? So when you're too close to the sun— I think the question is, and with some of the reading that I was doing, is that there was a report that you gathered all the employees and, like, laid them off on Zoom all together. I think that's what— and by the way, you, you aren't the only company that ultimately did that. I mean, I think your point about leading the way is that it was very shocking for everybody. Everybody was responding, reacting, not even responding, but reacting to what was happening without any context at all because it was so early. But I think what you just said, that you met one-on-one, you and Ariel met one-on-one with the individuals, that wasn't what got out to the news.

There was no massive layoffs. There was no event like that. There was no event where there was 100 people on the call and you said, Hi, you're fired. Like, what?

Really? Yeah.

Seriously? Like, so I think that there was a lot of frustration. I, what I wanted, my point of that I mentioned earlier, it was a scary time when it comes to the virus because we did not know anything about it. And therefore, you know, if you, if you get, if you lose your job, you use, you use your, you lose your health insurance. And that's why we actually, we thought about all of that. And I think about if it was my brother, if I had to let my brother, you know, lose his job, I would want him to, at least for the next 6 months, to have health insurance. And we did that. We did it because it was really, really important. Because, like, seriously, if this virus turned out to be really deadly and like Omicron spreads really fast, but also deadly, I want to make sure that people have the right to get to the hospital, especially in America, where if you don't have health insurance, it's scary.

It's just so scary. Yeah.

It's very scary.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And it was in that time too. So, I guess now, I mean, I hear you and I think that's a very helpful context. And to your point, you are not the only company that had to, you know, reduce headcount and also really be wary of, just be mindful of money. If I then ask you to turn the attention to culture, sort of how do you think that you promoted maybe your cultural values? Like, what are your cultural values and how did they show up during the early stage of the pandemic? And how do they show up today now that everyone's working remotely anyway?

Yeah. A, TripActions is an in-person company. We really believe in in-person. And if you check my Twitter account, I just tweeted an article that was published today on TechCrunch, not by TripActions. Okta published the, I don't know how, I guess it's by the number of logins or activations and they basically ranked companies by being in person and DripActions came in number 2 after Notion. Oh. So, and I tweeted it and I said, you know, we really believe in in-person connection. That's what we do. We bring people together to promote ideas and concepts and we also follow it ourselves. So TripActions is an in-person company. I'm sure that after this experience, but actually before that we used Zoom as well, but I really think that, you know, if I want to sell you something, I can meet with you over dinner and have a glass of wine and talk about it, or I can do a Zoom with you. But if my competitor will meet with you over dinner, I will meet with you over dinner as well, or I can choose to do it over Zoom and lose. Life goes on. Life is all about being in person. So that's about this one. But going back to the question about culture, it's a really, really good question. And I think that that's what makes companies special or not special. It was very clear for us as a company what we're focusing on. All along, and that's why it was successful. It was about, you know, it started with how we make money as a business. Fundamentally, what drives our success and existence, it was usage. It's all about usage. So all employees in the company, new, old, you ask them, hey, what's the number one value in the company? They will tell you it's all about the user. All of them, all the time. There's no downtime for users. And it doesn't matter which user you are. You can be the admin, the CEO, the delegate, the traveler, the one that travels every 4 times a month, or the one that travels twice a year. No confusion. So I think that when there's no confusion about those things, yes, there was a pandemic and everyone was shaken. But as I told you, Very quickly, we went back to what we know how to do best, and it's to focus on the user and generate value. We just did not imagine prior to the pandemic that we would need to connect to the CDC. Like, if you'd ask me in January or February, hey, I think that if you connect your system to the CDC, it would be fantastic. I would tell you, have you lost your mind?

Why would we do that?

Why would you do that?

Yeah.

But guess what? It became an amazing feature. And the number of emails, very emotional emails that we got. I remember that Monday I got like 60 emails thanking us. Long thank you. It wasn't, hey, thanks. It's like, you saved us. You saved us. How would I manage this thing otherwise? It's so special. So special. And I think that TripActions really started to separate itself from other companies that are not technical by nature. A lot of our competitors are more traditional and less technical. And, and I think that it became very evident how technology and data actually can be really helpful and actually is needed to manage a modern travel program, and how you can no longer rely on solutions that are not data-driven, not technical, not in real time, with low adoption, etc. So that, that was actually beautiful to see how People want to rally around the mission. People need it. And those that stayed, and again, some chose to leave, but those that stayed, I think, well, I don't think I'm judging by results. We produced 80 different features in the first 12 months of the pandemic, none of which I would, none of which you would probably would have done otherwise.

Right. I mean, I have to say that for all the companies that I work with, it really activated creativity and, you know, the notion of like constraints and focus and like connection back to what are we in business for and what are we in service to activated so much creativity. And it sounds like you're saying that totally happened with you guys too.

Yeah, totally. I can tell you that was a, it's a funny story, but I'm an engineer, a software engineer. And that's my education and that's my experience and that's what I love. But for 2 months, from April to June of 2020, I think that I could have been qualified as an epidemiologist because we realized that the notion of the R factor or the reproduction number became popular and, hey, what's the R factor there? But at that point in time, there was no single source where you could actually see the R-factor in real time across all the countries in the world. So we developed it because we thought that people start to look at this number to make, to assess risk. So in June of 2020, users of TripActions, as soon as you type, you just say, I want to fly to Amsterdam, you just type AMS, which is their, the the airport in Amsterdam. We immediately populate the obvious things: the number of new cases, 7-day average, moving average, deaths. So you can, you can get visibility. But we then also started to populate the R-factor over time, and you can see if it's trending down or up. And again, you can assess the risk by yourself and make a decision. It became so popular and people loved it because there was no other source that we actually took this component and made it available on our website publicly. So anyone that had any interest to see what's the R factor in this country or that country could just see it.

So, so providing data to, you know, sort of, you're talking about using that data to really provide a service people can like educate themselves and get their own information.

Exactly. Yeah, exactly. It's empowering them. The notion back then was We cannot make a decision for anyone, but we can empower them to assess the risk and make decisions because even during the pandemic, there were, there were people that had to fly for operational stuff. And we thought that we could, this way, we could just help them assess the risk and make a decision that is a bit more informed, a bit more data-driven, as opposed to calling, because what people used to do is call and say, hey, what's going on there? How is it safe? You know, do you think that it's okay if I come?

Right.

Which is, which is beautiful, and you should do that. But we wanted to provide another dimension that is a bit more data-driven and, and more, you know, less, less subjective.

Right.

That way.

Right. I love it. So you're an engineer, as you said, and now you're an epidemiologist, obviously. So you're a doctor, and yet The job you do now as CTO, and also really as co-founder, is a far cry from coding and sort of figuring technical stuff out. I'm just wondering how you have adapted, like, if you think about your journey as a leader, not as an engineer, how do you sort of describe your journey as a leader? And what's it like to do constant adaptation like that?

So, we can talk about, uh, being an executive for companies that scale really quickly. I think that's very fascinating. There is a lot of insights. But if you specifically more about myself, being an engineer and being really, really, really passionate about that. So it's not just being an engineer. It's, I love to build things. I really, really genuinely love to build things. I do not love to manage, you know, organizations of hundreds of people. I've done that in the past. I've done that at Repactions. But the thing that really, really gets me excited and stimulates me, makes me very curious, pushes me to the limits of everything that I can do is building stuff. So the way what my role at TripActions is a CTO, I also have a few engineers that have been with us for anywhere between 7 and 6 years now. And most of them I know from, you know, some of them I know for 25 years. And so they report to me. They're just engineers reporting to me. They report to me. I'm like a team lead, an engineer that is a team lead with a lot of influence in the company because I'm also a co-founder and the CTO. And we build stuff. We build things that yesterday seemed impossible. That's the mission of this team. And this gives me a ton of spark. And also I think that this is what will really help, A, our users, B, the industry. Some of the things that we are cooking there could have a huge impact on the entire industry. I'm talking airlines, hotels, and other travel agencies. So like at scale, but again, 4 or 5 engineers, That's it. I can't talk about it right now, but I can tell you that the project that we're currently getting to fruition is transformative for the company. I'm not being cocky. I would be less inclined to compete with TripActions if I hear about what we just built here. I would just say, you know what, that's just too much. Let's do something else.

Fold up shop.

Yeah, yeah. And it's fine. You know, when we picked the market, we also looked at the players and we we analyzed it and we, we wanted to know what we're getting into. You know, going and competing with Google on search is, is tough. Going competing with Apple on, uh, on a phone is tough. And one of the reasons is that they keep pushing their product forward. So that's what I, what I'm, I want to do with this team is to keep pushing TripActions forward and build the things that seem almost impossible, like the Face Unlock, if in 2007, '08, so the iPhone was released in 2006. If in 2008, you would tell you, you don't need to unlock it. All phones had, you had to punch in the code. There was no, you know, fingerprint, there was nothing. And I said, no, you just open it, just stare at it. It would sound completely impossible.

Right.

And people would say it will never work because you need a good camera and the battery, it has to scan all the time. How would you know to capture it now? And it would not work. You would need a huge battery. But they did it. And they did it. And now it's more difficult to compete with them because now if you want to compete about the experience, that's part of the experience. So now go build the Face ID, Face Unlock. And I can tell you that as far as I know, there is no— there is Windows Hello that I haven't tried and I don't know how it works. Supposed to work like Face ID. But on the mobile phones.

So that's what you're building for TripActions.

I'm— yeah.

Your version.

Yeah, the version of Face ID.

So competitors be warned. All the competitors should be warned.

No, competitors, you're welcome. Like, seriously, because if, if there would have been no competitors, maybe there would have been no team like that. You know what I mean? So I actually think it's all good. And I'm, I'm looking forward to see innovation coming from competitors because it will keep me and us sharp.

Yeah, good. I love that. But things, I obviously things change. So what you said was that you did run organizations that were like a lot of people probably before TripActions and during TripActions. What insight did you get about leadership, about management during that period? And then what also made you decide, you know what, I want a small team and I want to just build stuff? Like, tell us about that journey.

Yeah, maybe at this point I'll share something about myself that I just discovered a few months ago. I was diagnosed with a very light, light autism. It used to be called Asperger's. Now it's one scale. Sorry, the autism scale is, there's one. And I'm on the far end of one of them. So I'm right there. And I'm saying that because I think that my leadership style is very particular to what I am and how I am. So with Asperger, for example, you're very genuine because you don't have this sophistication. I'm a really single layer person. And if you want to confuse me, have a second layer and talk there, and I will not understand what you want. You can have, you know how you can talk with subcontext and stuff. I don't see subcontext. I see context. I do not see subcontext. So I'm saying that because that's how I work with my teams. And it's very simple. It's very respectful. It's very to the point. There is no, I don't play games because I don't know how to play games. And I don't care about those games. So that's how I see the world in a simple single layer. And at least that's my experience with myself. I think that maybe other people with Asperger's might experience it differently. And so it's, and my passion is to build stuff. So I think that, you know, growing up did require some adjustments, which I've acquired prior to to TripActions, where my career back then was to become a more senior manager and a more senior manager and a more senior manager. That was my career. At TripActions, I did not see it as, hey, I started, started a company. What, how would my personal success look like in a few years? If you asked me back in the past, I would say I would, today I manage 35 people. I would like to manage a global organization of 300 people. And it's very legitimate. At TripActions, I never did I see it like that. I always saw it as TripActions, I want to build, I want to build, and I want to build. So today, I actually do not manage a huge organization, a huge organization. I have an SVP of engineering. Offer Ben David. He's amazing and he runs the organization and he runs it really well. He runs it better than the way I did, focusing on many things that I did not focus on. And this thing works really, really well together. You know, I can talk for hours about what does it mean to step up from being— not step up, but changing your role from being a really good a software engineer to now run a team.

Yeah, actually pause right there. Actually be helpful to hear what that was like for you. Wow.

The first month I had weird dreams where, weird dreams and they were all about who am I to tell them what to do? That's what it was all about. Because I was an engineer working with them and then one day they reported to me and I had to tell them what to do. So there was some personal adjustment. I don't think that it happens to everybody, probably not. Most people don't experience it this way.

Well, just to tell you, actually, most people do experience that. Oh, really? Yeah, that's very normal. Interesting. Very normal to be like, especially what you're saying is that I was their peer on Friday and on Monday I was their manager.

Yes.

Ooh, that's uncomfortable.

Yes. Yeah, so I use it as like a guiding style for me. And I told myself, hey, continue to develop, continue to write code. Like, who says that now you're not allowed to? Like, you know, what changed? I'm responsible for the outcome of this bunch of people. That's the only thing that changed. I went through that. By the way, I had those dreams and I had a few nightmares. And the nightmares were that I can't code. In all of these nightmares, I can't code.

You lost your ability to code.

I lost my ability to code. And I was a really, really good engineer. I mean, I really like my— it's a passion, right? So I think that those dreams are really telling, right? You don't need a psychiatrist here to analyze it, a fortune teller to analyze it. But yeah, so I use it as like a guiding style for me. And I told myself, hey, continue to develop, continue to write code. Like, who says that now you're not allowed to? I became almost like pissed off about myself that I even— like, you know, what changed? I'm responsible for the outcome of this bunch of people. That's the only thing that changed. Now, what's the best way to do it? I actually figured out that in a team, when I'm managing a team, that for me, the best way to get The way to get to the best outcome is to code as well. That's my philosophy. So why? Because I work with developers that write code every day. I need to be able to talk to them about what happens. I need to be able to talk to the point. And then with this realization, I said, okay, if this team lead versus the other team lead versus the other team lead, those that report to me now, if they have their own path, their own approach, I should let them do it. So that's where I learned that, that I learned to operate more under the concept of freedom and responsibility. So that's something that works well with— it actually works well with first-line managers. It actually works well on all levels. I still apply it today. As a company, we apply this approach. It's Freedom and responsibility. You know, we hired you because whoever you are, whatever level, you can be an SVP, you can be a director, a team lead, or individual contributor. We hired you for— we went through the interviews, we decided that you should join the company because you bring value. Now you joined. Now it's a reset. Now we need to bring value. Now to bring value, we need to feel that you are free to talk. Free to suggest, free to question, free to criticize. And so that's the freedom part. You have freedom. And then people are different. They have different approaches. I think that I would have failed as a team lead if my boss wouldn't let me code because he thought that it's a mistake. He told me, you want to fail, do it. So he gave me the freedom, but the responsibility was there. He did not give me any discount. But I can tell you that back then, that was Mercury Interactive. That's where I met Ariel, by the way, back in 2002, 2003.

You know, I want to talk a little bit about Ariel and your relationship. But before I do, I just want to push a little bit or tease a little bit out what you said, freedom and responsibility. That's lovely. And by the way, when you hire the right people, then, and you give them this goal and the mission and create the right culture, they want to do a great job and everybody's working together harmoniously and it works. That's great. But surely there are moments where that breaks down, where you give someone freedom and so-called responsibility, it doesn't work, and you have to part ways. What's that conversation look like when that has to happen?

I'll tell you, in order to address this question, I think that I'll take a step back and we can talk about the hiring process. One of the steps of the hiring process is to let go very quickly. It's part of the hiring process. So there's 3 months, 4 months. It doesn't end when you hire the person because there's so much that you can learn about a person when you meet with them for 1 hour or 2 hours, 4 hours.

Right.

In the office, over coffee, over dinner. So you can definitely do stuff to get more exposure in different setups and then we can talk more about that. But there is the last step. The last step is, okay, now the person is there. What's happening? And be very quick to let go if you see that it's not working well. I cannot say that I'm the quickest person to part ways. I'm not the quickest, maybe. It's me just being very, maybe too open, but I'm not saying it as a sneaky complimentary to myself. I think that it is a flaw. And I will tell you why. I think that if you don't do it quick enough, you're being disrespectful to the person. I think that you're being disrespectful towards the company and the peers. And lastly, for yourself. So there's no good way to look at it. I think that the fact that I, in some cases, definitely did it too slowly. So to your question, I think that it needs to happen quickly. I think that I see it as part of the hiring process. It's the last stage. Yeah, hiring is very challenging, right? Given even all of that, and I think that there is a good process that keeps evolving all the time, you still make mistakes. And it's still sometimes very unfair for the candidates. But that's why I think the last step is to recognize that there was a mistake. It's not saying recognize that the employee failed. It's recognize that there was a mismatch.

Yeah.

And, you know, be respectful towards them at that point. That's the last step of the interview.

Yep. I love what you just said in terms of the traits you're looking for. So you're really looking for intelligence and drive and passion, the spark of passion, as well as a gut sense of like, are we meant to be together? Kind of.

Exactly, exactly.

And then what you're saying is there's no onboarding plan. It's like, that's part of the hiring. Those 3 months are like, we're still in the hiring part. And I think that's very powerful to frame it that way, because then if it doesn't work out, it's not like a failure. It's like, well, that was part of the hiring, but didn't work out.

It didn't work out. Exactly. Yeah, exactly.

So I'm curious because you're talking about the way you are with people and the way you click with people or don't click with people. And I'm wondering about your co-founder and CEO, Ariel Cohen, and you met him and I, you talked about how you met him and I know that you all did a first startup together. Yep. I, I was, I want to kind of say fortunately and unfortunately for you, it got sold. You guys sold in only 9 months. You're like, well, that wasn't, you know, that's what we wanted. So then you wanted to start a You both knew that you were going to found another company together. So what's it about your relationship with Ariel and how you two work together that made you say, we're definitely going to do another company together?

Yeah, no, there was no doubt. And by the way, there was also no doubt that he will be the CEO and I will be the CTO. And that's what I think it makes it very special. There was no doubt about that. I think that, that, you know, Ariel and I are very different in the skills, the capabilities. I think that what I am when it comes to technology and software is what he is when it comes to life and, and managing operations. And it's a huge compliment because I, I know myself when it comes to technology, I lose perspective. And I think that he's like that on, on the other things. And this combination is, is super driven, super start. It's 3 months, I was much younger. The amount of drive and hunger that I had was uncontainable, and Ariel was at least as driven as I was and hungry. And, um, yeah, we founded a company and 9 months later we got sold. There was 3 months of due diligence in between, and, um, it was a really, really good outcome for everybody that was involved, um, the employees, for us, for the investors. 9 months. And I think what I've learned throughout these 9 months is A, to respect him a lot, B, to trust him. The trust came later. The respect was there because I, you know, I heard of him. We used to work for the same company doing different roles since 2002 or something like that, very early 2000s. I always heard of him. There was this Ariel. And he admitted that he always heard of me. There is this crazy team leader that writes code. And then I moved to California in 2006, and he moved to California in 2009. At some point, HP acquired Mercury Interactive, so both of us became HP employees. Both of us didn't like it. And then HP acquired Opsware, which was Ben Horowitz and Mark Andreessen's company. And I became the head of engineering for Opsware. And Ariel was holding a very senior position in the product organization. So, we got to work together. And that was pretty much the first time that, you know, we worked much, much closer together dealing with angry customers, bugs that I produced, and he had to deal with it, and then, and then, and then. And I think from there it was 3 years later we started StreamOnce. But that was the first time that I really got to see him. And in StreamOnce, it took, I think, 4 or 5 months for me to fully trust him. And I think vice versa. If you talk to him, probably a similar story from his side. And the result was good. Then when we started TripActions, we were really focused, very driven. We both wanted to fulfill the desire to build a company that would have an impact that would be meaningful at scale. We both wanted that. And the trust, I think, is Probably the most important thing.

How did you build trust? When you said after it was 4 or 5 months it took, and that's normal. I mean, we can trust people a little bit instantly or initially, but it takes time to go through some trenches to then really have the trust. What happened in those 4 or 5 months that made you say, I really trust him?

I can tell you that with me, it was, I knew myself and I knew where my personal bar was at. And I knew that I will never be able to set it so high up there. That's what I knew. And I, the starting point for me and Ariel was I assumed that his bar is not there. Almost assumed. I did not assume, but I was, I really wanted to know. I can tell you fast forward that his bar is probably even higher than mine, but it took time and he didn't build my trust. He earned my trust. And he earned my trust by, I saw how dedicated he is. I saw how, you know, I remember this time where I was, he was sick. He had fever. It wasn't COVID.

Before pre-COVID. Pre-COVID. There was a time.

He was, yeah, there was a time where people could be sick and it's not COVID. And you know, is it COVID?

No.

Thank God. Like it could be, never mind. Anyways. He was sick and he had a meeting with Salesforce in San Francisco and he was in Palo Alto. And I was waiting for him to tell me that he's sick and he cannot make it to the meeting. And the meeting was important. It was his meeting, not mine. So he tells me, dude, I'm like, I'm dead. And by the way, he's not spoiled. I know it now, but back then I didn't know. I'm dead. Like I took pills and I was saying, uh-huh. I was just waiting for him to tell me and I decided not to go. To then lash at him. It didn't happen. He just told me how miserable he is. And then I met him after the meeting. The guy was dead. But he did the meeting all the way through. And I learned something about me and I learned something about him. I learned that I underestimated or I didn't give him enough. I learned that I was too, I was more too doubtful. For no reason. At least start neutral. If you don't know anything, you have no opinion, like start neutral. I started negatively, like I was pessimistic or whatever, like negative. I learned it about myself and I changed that. And I learned about him that the guy is like, nothing will stop him. Yeah. So it took some time, but this is just one example, but you know, it didn't take much more than that to tell me who the guy is. And until now, you know, when we have, he will never cancel a meeting, even if the guy is like burning, burning with fever. Like he will pump himself with whatever medicine, will make it through the meeting and then pass out. And it's true. And it's true.

So drive again, back to drive.

Insane drive.

Insane drive.

Commitment, drive, sticking to the goal. If we set an artificial goal to ourselves, It's important because we said it, so we're going to meet it. Yeah.

So what would you say is the best part and the hardest part of your relationship with Ariel?

I think the best part is there is friendship. Friendship evolved over time and trust. So, and I can tell you the important thing is when I talk to Ariel, I never seek for comfort. And when he talks to me, he never seeks for comfort. We seek reality. We seek being straightforward and to the point and to really speak up. That's what I see when I tell him something. I can come super excited about something and tell him what I think that it's fucking bullshit. And I love that about the relationship. And we can do it to each other. We had endless arguments when we built the company about what to do. And I remember there was a point in time where we had really, really tough arguments. And I told him, well, if you want to do that, you're going to kill the company. And I'm not going to kill the company. So I'm not going to do that. And yeah, but it's good. I think that good discussions are discussions where you can really express yourself. Discussions where you can really express yourself are discussions that are backed up with trust. I trust that where Rika is coming from is, uh, for, for the best of the company and not for the best of his own career. And I fully trust that. So when he— that this creates a space for a really honest, honest, uh, straight, you know, a straightforward discussion with no fluffiness with, you know, a really good discussion.

Yeah.

By the way, both of us are Israelis. And I've heard from some people at least that they think that Israelis are rude and straightforward. And I am proud of that. I think that it creates less anxiety when you know exactly who the person in front of you is and what he thinks about you. Maybe a little bit polishing would not be bad for Israelis, but in general, I like it that in Israel, where you have a boss, you know where you are. And there's no anxiety and there's no surprises. It's good. It's actually a very good thing. So, yeah, between me and him, it's definitely like that. So these are the good moments. I think it's just sometimes it's on the same topic, sometimes it's very difficult. Because you get a, you get very, call it harsh, but you get a feedback that, that is very extreme. And you, you need to have a conversation. You can't just walk away and say, you know what, I don't care, right? Because you do, right? So yeah, it's, it's a very productive um, challenging and I think result-driven relationship.

And he pushes you and you push him. Yeah, yeah, I could see that. Yeah, I— you write about it. I work with a few Israeli companies and it is true that what they say about Israelis, it's direct.

It's very direct. Yeah, it's very direct. Yeah, it's like that. It's, uh, yeah, yeah. I've been in California for 16 years and my experience going back lately is I go back and the second I land in the airport, I feel like I'm surrounded with baboons. But 5 minutes later, I'm one of them.

Yeah, you snap back in.

It's, yeah. And then there's no baboons. We are all the same.

They're all the same. That's okay.

There is something, yeah, there's something very liberating about being direct.

Yeah, yeah.

I think it's liberating. It's liberating and knowing that the people around you are direct as well.

Yeah, exactly. Just a couple more questions before I let you go. What do you wish you had known earlier on your journey?

It would have been amazing if I knew that, that there's going to be a pandemic.

Yes. For all of us.

It would have been really nice. Aside from that, I think, as I said, I really believe in being naive. And because my job is is being an entrepreneur and a founder. I don't want to know more than what I did. I told you, if I knew everything that I know today, if I knew that about travel, I would have probably had a startup in a different market. So I don't, I don't believe in being a victim. I think that, you know, I believe in being naive. I believe that anything can be done through software and solved. And these are my tools. And that's how I handle my professional life.

I love it. That's great.

And I embrace it.

And what advice do you have for other founders as they embark on their journey to grow into leaders?

To grow into leaders. Maybe one advice is your role is to be the co-founder. And the company needs its co-founders. Because it's the vision that you have and it's the passion towards whatever it is that you do. It doesn't mean that you necessarily have to manage half of the organization. Maybe yes, but maybe not. So don't embrace it. Don't put this expectation on yourself. If you can do it, and grow and grow and grow and grow. I think that that's, that's, that's one advice, then that would be this one about growing the journey.

Amazing. Oh my gosh, Ilan, this is such a wonderful and rich conversation. I can't thank you enough for joining me today. It was really, really great to spend time.

Cool. I really enjoyed it as well. And I knew it since we met in Lisbon. I knew that it's going to be a fun conversation. I feel very comfortable.

Amazing. Great. Excellent.

Thank you. Thanks so much. Bye.

Bye-bye. Thanks for listening to From Startup to Grownup. If you like what you heard, give it a review on Apple Podcasts so other people can find it. And if you know of a founder or someone else who is meant to be on this podcast, drop me a line through my website, alisacohn.com.