#17: Kara Goldin, Hint Inc.

Welcome to From Startup to Grownup, the podcast. My name is Alisa Cohn. I'm an executive coach, an angel investor, and the author of From Startup to Grownup. Each week I talk to founders, creators, advisors, investors, and builders of all kinds about their insights and experiences in going from startup to grownup. This is episode number 17, and I'm so excited to have Kara Golden on the show. Kara is the CEO and co-founder of Hint, the flavored water company. Prior to that, she was a tech executive and a media executive. And we have this really rich conversation. We talk about what it was like co-founding with her husband Theo, why she decided to take in outside money after bootstrapping for quite a while, and how she landed John Legend as an investor. Kara talks about her ability to improvise, how her lack of experience was her competitive advantage while building Hint, and lessons learned from managing her board. There are so many nuggets here. Please enjoy this conversation with Kara Golden. Kara, welcome to the show.

Thank you so much for having me. I'm very excited to be here.

I'm so excited to have you, and there's so much to talk about, but I wanna tell a story. Uh, I wanted to tell you, talk about a story that you tell in Undaunted, your amazing book, your award-winning book. And it is this, that after you had 3 kids, you were, you were pregnant with your 4th child. You were on your way to a scheduled C-section, and before, as you were going to your C-section, you stopped by Whole Foods to seal the deal with your first sale to Whole Foods. True or false?

This is, this is all true. I was, uh, super pregnant and, um, and basically, uh, I woke up that morning. I didn't have to be at the hospital until that afternoon and my husband said to me, what do you want to do this morning? I think he was thinking go to brunch or go on a walk or something. And that's when I said, well, we have these two pallets of Hint in the garage that were supposed to be here two weeks ago and they showed up yesterday. And, and, uh, I think I'd like to try and get it into Whole Foods before I go have a baby. And I was having a planned C-section. He sort of laughed and said, okay, let's get in the car. And we got in the car and went to Whole Foods. He was nice enough. Uh, he brought a dolly with him, you know, to actually carry cases in. He loaded up 10 cases. This, by the way, he was an intellectual property attorney in Silicon Valley. He wasn't used to loading up cases on a dolly, but he was a good guy.

But also your co-founder, right? Husband, husband and co-founder.

Yeah, exactly. And so we're walking in and. Uh, and I see this guy that I had been talking to, but honestly, like, hadn't seen him in a couple of months because I was just busy actually trying to launch the product and get it produced. And so when I saw him, I walked up to him and he's stocking shelves at the time at Whole Foods. He, I said, hi, do you, do you remember me? And he said, uh, you're really pregnant. And that was the first thing out of his mouth. And I said, I am, I'm very, very pregnant. And he said, are you going to have a baby in the store? And I was like, I hope not. I'm actually on my way to the hospital, but I wanted to stop by and see you and see if we could get my product on the shelf. And he said, you have your product? And I said, okay, well, can we get the product, my product Hint, on the shelf? Now and, and, uh, it's really great. Here's some samples. And he said, look, I'll try. I felt like somebody had just popped my balloon at this point. And then suddenly he was like, oh, I'll try. And it was a big letdown. And then, uh, so I left, I went to the hospital. I, I wasn't sure whether or not I thought, uh, what, you know, maybe he will, maybe he won't. And then the next day I got a phone call and he was, uh, he said, By the way, the product is gone. And I said, like, who took the product? I had no idea, you know, that it would actually sell. And I think that's a story that resonates so much with people where you think about, like, getting it on the shelf. How are you going to get on the shelf? What is the product going to look like? What is it going to taste like? But you don't actually think about selling through. Of the product. At least the first-time founder, I mean, you hope that it's going to sell. I certainly didn't— I didn't imagine that it would sell overnight as fast as it did. And so his concern was not only that he was out of product, but he had created space on the shelf at Whole Foods that now was empty. And he was going to get in trouble with his boss. So we checked out of the hospital early. And that's when, actually, my husband said, let me just go deliver some cases. "Get some rest." And so he went and delivered some more cases. And I mean, the rest is history.

That's an incredible story. And in your book, "Undaunted," I have to say, there's so many beautiful gems of stories like that.

Thank you.

I just wanna call out one more, which is where you talk about you're applying for a job early in your career, like actually your first, probably one of your first jobs. And the people there said no, And you say, but what you heard was maybe. And later they said maybe, and what you heard was yes. And I just love that because that is the entrepreneurial spirit in so many ways. And I'm just curious, were you always like that or was that something that you developed in yourself?

So I think I was really fortunate that I, of course I didn't see it back then, but when I was a, I was the last of 5 kids and I had brothers and sisters who, were significantly older than me. I had a couple that were 2 and 3 years older than me, but also 15 and 16 years older than me. So of course they were doing different things. Like I was in diapers when my brother and sister were in high school, right? And so they were getting jobs and they were doing things. And as time would go on and, you know, I got to the point where I like to go to the mall and, and, uh, have money and, and go out, hang out with my friends in Phoenix where I grew up, I would, you know, I'd ask my parents for things that my brothers and sisters had because they had jobs and I'd ask them for some money and they'd say no. So I was used to hearing that word no all the time. Dad, I want to— Mom, Dad, I want to go to a party this Friday. No. Like they, they basically were going off of what my brothers, the way they had been. And, and, uh, they were very fast to say no. And so what I realized is that if I could get my dad or my mom to a maybe. I moved them off of no, and I got them to a maybe. And so I think that continued for me in a lot of things, right? That I would hear people— like, I was a gymnast growing up, and I ran a lot. And so I had coaches. And the same thing where I would hear people talk about what I was able to do or whether or not I was going to be in a meet, for example. If I heard the word no, I would think, Okay, I may not get them to yes, but I'll get them to maybe. Maybe if you show up, you'll be able to do it. And then just the idea that I took that maybe and then I showed up and I said, you said maybe, and I would remind people about it, they'd say, fine, go ahead. You show your tenacity. But I think it's also about, it kind of speaks to reading the room, as I said too. And I guess we call it empathy as well. You know, more than anything, just really, really understanding kind of human nature of communication to what it really boils down to. And, and so I think I saw that at a young age, but I also, I kind of gamified the system to some extent that I was like, especially if I really wanted to do something. And I think that that was, that's something that has I think really works in business as well.

Totally. I mean, it totally works in business. And I think if definitely it's part of like being an entrepreneur, and I guess, you know, that leads me to the notion of the beverage industry. When you were, you know, sort of, you had been a tech executive and you were kind of looking around for what you wanted to do. And of course you had your own personal journey with an understanding of like cutting out sugar and cutting out caffeine. And also the, you know, the diet that, sort of flavoring from the diet sodas, and that you sort of came to this understanding that you wanted to start a beverage company, but you had no experience in beverages. So I'm just curious, like, what was that journey like for you in deciding, "I'm gonna go for it"? Like, why would you go for it when you really didn't know what you're getting yourself into?

You know, it's interesting. You spoke about, you know, I'd been in tech and had done some other things before. And I think for me, I didn't even— first of all, I never dreamed of being a beverage executive. I also, uh, not that there's anything wrong with it, but I just— it just wasn't my plan. I started out in media, um, and in New York and, and worked in, uh, magazines and then ended up working in, in television at CNN and then ended up Moving to Silicon Valley was with a little startup that was doing early direct-to-consumer in, uh, something called CD-ROMs back in dial-up days. And then we were acquired by America Online and I was running their e-commerce and shopping partnerships. And I took a break and really tried to figure out, do I— knew I wanted to stay closer to home. I had young kids and I was trying to figure out exactly what I wanted to do in tech that I— people kept reaching out to me and asking me to kind of do America Online 2.0, right? There was Yahoo and there was Microsoft. There were lots of people out there. And I thought, I've already done that. And why would I go compete and try and blow up something that I just created, right? It was, it was sort of, it seemed really not very normal to me in some way. And So that's when I really started thinking about my children. I was going to take a break. I was going to enjoy being with them. And I started looking at what I was putting into their bodies. I was not very— I guess I wasn't sensitive to it prior to kind of spending some more time at home. I mean, not that they were just, you know, eating bags of Fritos at age 1 or whatever, but you know what I mean? They just weren't— I really hadn't thought about it. I had a lot of trust in what people told me. So for example, when they got off of, you know, breast milk and formula, then people said substitute with apple juice. And I kept thinking that, wow, that's a lot of sugar. I mean, is that really what I want to be doing? And I do my own little tests. Like when I would take my kids to the park, I'd, you know, say like maybe they have it if they're going to burn off the calories, but otherwise if I want them to take a nap, I mean, that's probably not the greatest idea. So I, again, like. Kind of gamifying this, this world that I was living in that I wasn't used to living in. And at some point along the way, I started reading labels and it really started with my kids, but then it quickly sort of focused, or I focused on what I was putting in my body because I thought, here I am trying to make my kids and my family super healthy and I'm not practicing what I'm preaching. I was drinking tons of Diet Coke since I was in high school. And the reason why I was drinking so much Diet Coke is that I didn't like water. I aspired to be a water drinker, but for me, drinking water was just super boring. And again, I grew up in Arizona where I should have been drinking a lot more water. And so I thought, I'm gonna do this test and see whether or not giving up my diet soda and exchanging it for water does anything. Will it make a difference? Again, it's diet. It's not full-fledged soda. So I really thought I was doing better already. And so 2 and a half weeks later, first of all, after a few days of not drinking Diet Coke, I had massive headaches. I had huge stomach issues. I was really going through my own detox. I just didn't feel well at all. Then I woke up 2 and a half weeks later and I was like, okay, I'm like, not as foggy. I had terrible adult acne that was totally clearing up on its own. I hadn't done anything. I'd never had acne until I was an adult. And also I had lost a bunch of weight. I lost over 20 pounds in 2 and a half weeks. And at that point, I was really like, wow, this is, this is wild. I mean, here I am drinking diet, I give up diet and all this happens. I mean, this is crazy, except there's one problem. Water is just not going to do it for me for very long. I'll, I didn't want to go back to drinking diet soda, but I thought, what do I do to solve this problem? So I started slicing up fruit and I threw it in the water and And at that point I thought, okay, this is all I need. I was giving it to my kids. They loved it. I was— friends were asking me, you know, what kind of fruit do you have in your water? They'd see it, you know, half a pomegranate in the water. They would ask me, you know, what are you doing? And I thought, well, if there was a water that I could just go buy that was like this, but everything has some kind of sweetener in it. So I didn't think about launching it until people started saying to me, that'd be so cool. Like, I never really realized that everything has so many sweeteners in it. Vitaminwater was like the hottest thing on the shelves. This is 17 years ago, and I was shocked at how much sugar was in. They didn't have a diet version, but I was, I was shocked because I thought, you know, there's so many products like, for me, it was diet soda. There's Vitaminwater. There's things that are low-fat, kind of healthy perception versus healthy reality products that are out there. And it's kind of sad, right, that we're tricked into believing that things are better for us than they are. Here I considered myself to be a pretty smart person, and I had been fooled by these words. And so it was at that point when I thought, I'm not doing anything anyway. I mean, I'm being a mom and staying at home with my kids. But I thought maybe these, like the fruit that I'm putting in the water, maybe I'm onto something. I never thought about it as I'm gonna go be an entrepreneur now. Here I'd worked for incredible entrepreneurs, including Ted Turner and people who had worked for Steve Jobs. I never worked for Steve Jobs, but, you know, AOL with Steve Case as well. So I had seen and supported supported entrepreneurs, but I had never been, you know, I had never sort of thought that one day after I've supported all these people that I'm going to go and launch my own thing. But when I saw this problem, when I saw this idea that I had that could actually help a lot of people just by showing them through a physical product that tastes good, that they can actually get healthier. That was, that's what really sold me on this concept because I realized that I thought that so many people had been fooled like me. Then I also looked at these industries, they're multi-billion dollar industries, the diet industry, the diet soda industry. And I thought if I could just launch a product that tastes great, little did I know that I had created an entirely new category. In the beverage industry called unsweetened flavored water, which is a whole other story. But also just sometimes I think that if you think too much about, you know, why you can't do something— I didn't have experience, you know, I had never been an entrepreneur. The idea still to this day, if somebody were to tell me, Okay, you're not just launching a company, but you're launching an entirely new category. That's daunting, right? Instead, don't go there. Just get through every day and keep making progress. That's the most important piece.

You know, I just spoke to Sid from Truepill and Ilan Twig from TripActions, and they both said, if I had known too much about this industry, I wouldn't have done it, you know, because it just would've been too daunting to disrupt the industry. So that healthy naivete and that healthy curiosity that— and then also, I think your ability to gamify and your desire and your nature to gamify things sounds like it really helped you, frankly, launch into something you had no business launching into.

Totally. And I think like that's the problem. And, you know, I'll even go out on a limb and say the more educated you are, the smarter you are. It's definitely where you know, you're, you're your own worst enemy because you end up being in a place where you convince yourself that you can't do something instead of convincing yourself, okay, I should try. And again, you have to figure out the risks. My dad would always talk to me about thinking about what's the worst that can happen. Sometimes when I was in my trying to get him from a no to a maybe, he'd say, what's this going to cost me, right? Or what's this, what's this going to cost you when I got a little bit older? Um, but you know, no matter how you evaluate things, and I think that it's, uh, when you ask yourself that question, if the risk isn't that big, whether it's, you know, how much money you're going to spend, or you know, if you're going to die, what are the, what are the odds, right? All of those kind of things, then why why not just go do it? Because if nothing else, you just add to your adventure. You add to conquering your fears. You add to doing something that you didn't know how it was going to turn out. And I think today, the most interesting people, the most curious people, the people that actually are the most successful are the people that feared those things along the way, but figured out how to push through.

Yes, push through and be able to take risks and kind of deal with them. And another risk that you took was you co-founded with your husband. So on the one hand, there's like something really great in that, and there's a lot of successful models of co-founding with your romantic partners. And then on the other hand, that's just risky. There's something else to say. So what was the greatest part of that? What was the most difficult? What has been the great part of that, and what has been a most difficult part of that?

You know, for us, I always tell people, another one, I never really thought much about it. I think more than anything, as I was coming up with this idea, I, I wanted to share it with my husband because, you know, we live in California, we have joint bank account. I, I mean, I didn't feel very comfortable like writing a check for $50,000 for bottles. I I feared that he'd think that I was going on a girls' weekend to Jamaica or something with friends. Like, he wouldn't know what I was doing. And little did he know that I had kind of written a business, mini business plan. And then I also found out that I was pregnant with our fourth as I'm writing this. And I thought, okay, do I actually do this company or, well, what else am I doing? I'm like, waiting for, you know, the, the baby to bake, right? And, and so, like, why not? Why don't I start getting through it? And, and I think what he saw, which I think is, you know, incredible, um, still to this day, is that he saw that this was a really big idea. He thought it was crazy on many fronts. I think we've always had this relationship where He doesn't hold back on saying, I think that's a really bad idea, or, you know, that seems really nutty. I hope you have fun. I mean, you know, that's, that's kind of been our, you know, our relationship over, over the years. The net of it is we're very different people and I think very different skill sets. And so as a, as somebody who joined me in the company, I think he initially felt like it was crazy. And then when he went to the plant with me, our first plant, I think he got the bug and he really realized that this was like a bigger idea to actually change people's health, help people get off of diet sweeteners when most people were really focused on sugar and what the body, you know, did with sugar. My feeling was that people get that. They understand they're not supposed to have sugar. People don't have 10 candy bars a day, right? Most people out. But it's these diet sweeteners that I really saw the problem probably ahead of other people. Now, I think that it wasn't that he didn't recognize that it wasn't hard and he recognized also that it was a big idea. But while I was trying to figure out whether or not I was going to go back to tech or stop this crazy idea, he also said, let me, work alongside you, I think he probably thought, I'm going to get her to like quit. I'm going to make her realize that this is a really bad idea. And, uh, you know, he was an intellectual property attorney and, and as I mentioned earlier, and, and instead, you know, he said, how can I, like, can I deliver cases for you? I mean, again, here we are. I'm, you know, don't have a job. He's kind of on, he's in between. He had left Netscape. And, and so we have these 4 kids. And it was kind of divide and conquer mentality for young kids under the age of 6. And so, um, you know, some days I was watching the kids, he said, oh, let me just load up the cases and then I'll drive them over there. And it was fine. And then as the company got bigger too, I mean, actually having a general counsel as a young company, I mean, he was, uh, definitely able to help on that front, but also I think his curiosity. Prior to going to law school, he was— he had worked in a lab. He thought he was going to go to med school. Like, he was always really interested in sort of more the science side. Um, and here I was saying, okay, it's really easy, we— fruit and water and no preservatives. And he was like, okay, that's really hard. People were saying it was impossible to do it. Again, going back to this whole gamify thing, where when I hear no, when I hear it's impossible, I'm like, how do you know it's impossible? Well, no one's ever done it before. Okay. Well, so is it really impossible or does it really mean that no one's ever done it before? So going back to, I guess, my early days at all those kinds of things all seem the same to me.

Yeah, that makes sense. It's funny that he joined you in the business a little bit, like to get you from a yes to a maybe and from a maybe to a no.

But it's totally that way. It's interesting that— it's interesting that you say that. But, you know, I remember one of the things— this is a really fun story— when we were first starting out and we were— I was asked to speak at this conference as to sort of why did you go from tech to starting a beverage company? And at the last minute they said, uh, would, would your husband, who's, you know, chief operating officer, co-founder, would he— can we interview both of you guys? And I was like, together? Like at the same time? I mean, uh, I'll ask him. I mean, I don't know. I mean, he's used to, he's used to kind of not being on the front, I mean, front lines of, of, you know, being interviewed, but I mean, probably, I don't know, like I didn't know what to say. And so I asked him and he said, okay. And I asked for questions ahead of time. They gave me some questions. Well, anyway, the first, I get, we get on stage. This goes to show you, like, you just kind of have to be ready for whatever, even when people hand you questions. Um, but the first question that they asked us was really pointed at him and they said, what's it like to work for your wife?

What did he say?

Right? Like, you know, I mean, it's just, I didn't know. I mean, I had never thought about that question, but obviously this person who was, you know, the moderator was really interested in that. And he, I mean, he was so funny. Theo's like a Seinfeld character and like Jerry Seinfeld, and he And he said, don't we all work for women? I mean, and he went on on this like dialogue and people were dying. And he said, I mean, I have two young girls and they're really young right now, but my expectations are that I'll always want to make sure that they're happy. He said, for me, I mean, I saw this idea that she had that actually could have impact on a lot of people and she's ahead of her time. She's creating not only a company, but also an entirely new category. And I get it. And probably not a lot of people get it yet because people didn't really see the problem in diet sweeteners like I did. And he said, so I want to support her. And he said, but having said that, when we're done with Hint, I mean, will I be a CEO? Will I Will she support me?

Maybe.

I don't know. But I think at the end of the day, it really, it's less about gender. And for him, he said it's more about, is it a great idea? Can I actually support? He got like a standing ovation. I mean, it was, and again, I was like, okay, I can leave the stage now. And like, we're all good. And, and it was, it was an awesome. Awesome speech.

That is amazing and speaks volumes, I think, about kind of him and his attitude and your relationship overall. Even this notion of like, don't you want to support your spouse? I mean, thinking about it that way. But I am curious, I would just say that I know spouses and romantic partners who work together one way or the other, and in some cases it changes their relationship. It's hard to know when to cut off work. It can kind of bring tension. It can also bring be very joyful because I spoke to, for my book, "From Start-Up to Grown-Up," I spoke to Michelle Romanow, who co-founded Clearco with her then romantic partner. And she said, "When he was on his phone the whole time, I liked that because he was handling crises that I didn't have to handle." So that's a different way of looking for your partner on the phone. I'm just curious what it brought in terms of goodness to your relationship and if there were any tensions that you had to navigate through.

Look, I think also when you have somebody that you really trust in the room and, you know, people would ask us over time, how do you divide? And it seems I'm much more, my experience is much more about the customer and about the marketing and about the branding and obviously had direct-to-consumer experience all of that, versus he was really about how do we improve, how do we, I mean, really supply chain operations. It was very easy for us. Having said that, he was used to me asking, well, why would you do that? Imagine if you are two co-founders, maybe you guys went to business school together, you like each other, all of a sudden you start a company. And then somebody saying, well, why would you do that? I don't even think twice about him saying, why would you do that? And because I asked the same thing, like, why would you do that? And, and again, I'm not judging, right? Yet if you don't know that person really, really well, um, then it might be difficult. Another, you know, great example is as we had 4 kids under the age of 6, there were certain days where get a call from the nurse's office and, you know, one of us would need to go to school and pick them up. And again, what if you're, you know, two co-founders and one has kids, one doesn't have kids, right? And all of a sudden there starts to be this, you know, well, who's really doing this kind of, who's doing this company? And I mean, that happens all the time. And I think for us, it was really about our priorities are family and work, and we have a mission to solve and help people understand that it is possible to get healthy through changing this habit. And we both really, really believed it. And so there was, there was like, it just seemed super normal. I think it was more abnormal for other people. I remember this one other story. There's so many stories along the way where we were raising money early on and there was a VC firm that had reached out to us. They loved our product. They drank it all the time. And they called my husband and sort of the final hours they were making a decision and looked through everything and they said, you know, we have one problem with doing this deal. And he said, what's that? And he said, You know, we just find like investing in married couples is just a really bad idea. And it had never come up before this moment. And, uh, and he said, you know, like, how do you guys make decisions about things? I mean, how, like, I mean, I get that you guys have different skill sets, all that kind of stuff. And Uh, he said, so Theo said something really smart. He said, so I'm, it's interesting, like, who have you invested in a married couple that, you know, where it hasn't worked out? Um, and he said, well, we haven't. And he said, oh, well, so what are you thinking about? Like, who are the married people that you've invested in or not invested in that you have read about, listen to their pod, listen to them on podcast, whatever. Where, what is the problem? And, um, he's like, well, I can't think of any right now. And this is a major VC and a major partner. And he said, okay, so why, why are you worried?

Yeah.

And he said, well, I've just heard like it's a really, it's a really bad idea. And so in the end, there's two stories there. One, you know, he, he didn't know what he was saying. He had picked up on something and sort of had this idea in his head that it was a bad idea, right? But then the other piece of it is people tell you that they're not investing for lots of different reasons, right? And you never really know if that was really the reason. Like if he even remembers to this day saying this to Theo, right? I mean, he could have just really, like, maybe he doesn't invest in women with red hair or I don't know.

Yeah. Or even like Tam, who knows, right? But then the people latch onto something that they want to say.

They latch onto something because they know that you can't respond to it and it's their exit, right? From this conversation. And once you know that. Then it's, you know, you're just like, uh, whatever, and you have to move on. And I think that that is— that's just another storyline, the journey, that I think there's a lot of lessons from that. Yeah.

Oh yeah. Um, well, on that topic, you know, you bootstrapped Hint for quite a while, and then you decided to take in some money. What was that? Why did you decide to take in some money, and what was the process like for you to meet right investors?

So we— it wasn't— it was interesting. Like, the first couple of years, we did not take in any capital. And I primarily didn't take in capital because we didn't know what we were doing. I mean, at all. Like, it was very— I figured out in the first month that we were not just launching a company, but we were launching an entirely new category. But then I felt like and primarily Whole Foods. Love Whole Foods, but Whole Foods, like, we launched there, it was being successful there, but every time I felt like I was gaining success, they'd raise the bar. I'd say, you know, we went in with a 2-month shelf life and then they'd say, okay, I'd almost duck from the buyers when I would, you know, be in the store because they'd say, okay, Next time we get an order, we need product that has 6 months. And I'm like, that's not going to happen. I mean, we, we are so lucky to have a product that is no preservatives at 2 months. So I don't even know. So they were, they were basically raising the bar and I had no idea how I was going to be able to achieve what they wanted, I guess is the net of it. Plus they were saying things that really scared me. Like we're in the Bay Area, but they were like, oh, would you like to be in the Denver stores? And I'm thinking, that's a long drive from, from San Francisco and my Grand Cherokee to Denver. How am I going to achieve this? Like, where would I get a truck from in order to do that and have somebody drive? I didn't know about distributors. I mean, I knew there were distributors, but I didn't have their phone number or their email. And so there were so many things along the way that I had to figure out how do we, you know, get there. And I think the, the other thing is that you have to understand is that, uh, I had, you know, grown up in media and tech. I didn't have experience in CPG. So when I asked the guy at Whole Foods, hey, can you give me a phone number for a distributor, maybe he would give me the phone number for a distributor. But then when the distributor they wanted to figure out if I was a risk. Like here, I had this idea for a product in a very crowded space, but also in a category that wasn't totally accepted by everybody yet. It was accepted by Whole Foods, but Safeway and other sort of conventional grocery stores weren't taking it in yet. And so I just, more than anything, I just felt like, you know, there were so many things that I just didn't know. So why should I take investment until I should invest my own money. And I was also hearing from a lot of people in Silicon Valley that were friends of mine from tech. They were like, oh wait, what are you doing? Oh, let me angel invest in your company. And I'm like, I don't, I still want to go to dinner with you. I don't want you asking me, you know, what's going on with the business and whatever. So after 2 years where I basically at this point figured out that we had kind of figured things out, I thought. It's time to start taking some of these investments and getting some people in there. And so we had a distributor actually who still works with us today that was— had been actually on the board of Vitaminwater, a guy named Ken Sadowski. And so he had said to us that if you guys are ever looking for an investment, I'd be interested in investing, and I can also introduce you to some people people. And so that seemed like, okay, let's go figure out if, if he's the real deal or not. He's obviously worked in the beverage industry. He's way ahead of us. And so he introduced us to our first investors, coupled with— there were people in Silicon Valley who, you know, knew us, who, um, thought that this mission of getting off of sugar and sweeteners was right on. And so those were the early people who invested.

It sounds like the early investors are people that one way or the other you had worked with, or like Ken, or that also you knew from your background. So it's, you know, relationships really matter when you're kind of thinking, 'cause you know who these people are and they know who you are.

Relationships totally matter. And I think that, The mission mattered. Yeah, a lot.

Mission alignment.

Most of these people, I still am thinking about it as, as I'm talking to you, most of these people who invested had never invested in a beverage company. And most of them haven't invested in another beverage company. Um, you know, in the case of John Legend, for example, when he invested, it was interesting because We were in Starbucks and Hint was in Starbucks and he found it in Starbucks and it was, um, he just called the number on the back of the bottle because he thought it was so good. And yet he wondered if the big soda companies had, if they were launching, you know, a product that it seemed counter to what he expected, um, from those big soda companies. And so. When I picked up the phone and said, no, no, no, it's not a Coke or a Pepsi company. It's, you know, I started it. And, and I think like for him, it, you know, John, of course, has, has some things that are really close to his heart. And this is even before his career had taken off to what it is today. But for him, he really believed that it had purpose and it had mission in it. And he I think today, to this day, would say that he believed in me. Right. And he believed that it was so crazy that, and you need somebody who's a little crazy to go and take this risk and do something. And he was backing me, plus he liked the drink. So it helped him drink water. So, right, right.

So you all had, have really had this incredible success. And I, I know it has to do with also building a team and making sure you have the right people. I'm curious, could you take us back to like one of your— an early, let's say an early senior hire? What was it like for you to hire kind of one of your early senior people? And what did you think about— what was that transition like? Because, you know, at some point it goes from you and Theo to probably a few employees, but then you, you're bringing on more senior people. That becomes a real company. What was that like?

I think, first of all, I was just talking to somebody about this yesterday that, you know, obviously really important when you're bringing somebody on because you've been doing the job. On the one hand, you really like people to help you, but your expectations, right, are you've been doing the job. And so you, you know, you sort of have opinions. And I think you have to let people do it their way, right? To some extent, you have to train them and sort of hand them what you know or what you think you know. But I made a huge mistake early on by thinking, because I didn't have experience, I sort of, um, I, I didn't give myself enough credit, right, for being able to figure stuff out. And we hired and spent a lot of money early on in hiring experience, right? And what I found about experience is experience in an industry is very different from finding somebody who's experienced in growing a company from zero to a million or, you know, 5 million or growing from 20 million to 50 million. And so I think that that is like a really, really important thing to remember that so often if you're working inside of a large company, it's really hard to get that experience. And you'll say that you know how to do it, you were at a big company and whatever, but the reality is that you don't, right? One of my best examples was I remember when I was launching Hint, and I mentioned Safeway earlier, my dad had launched a product called Healthy Choice, or as a part of Armor Food Company, they had been acquired by Conagra. And so I figured, well, he'll know how to like get our product into Safeway, even though it's a different category. It's frozen food. It's not very far away from, you know, beverages and how that's done. And so I asked him like, oh, how do I, how do I do it? And he said, I have no idea. I mean, I worked inside of a large company and that's what happens with large companies is they have a big contract, maybe frozen food and some other parts of the store. And so the space is already allocated. And so when you hire these experienced people, a lot of them don't know that because they've, they've basically been, you know, invited in versus actually asking for you know, the meeting kind of thing. So I think there's, there's a lot of lessons there, um, early on. So we made, we made a lot of mistakes early on and sort of hiring for experience. The other thing that I've learned too is that I remember the first person who quit and I remember thinking, oh my God, I've like failed. Right? And here they— right? Do you— I mean, yeah, it's so true. You hold it against yourself. You think, seen it coming, you know, they're leaving me because I suck, you know, my product sucks, whatever. And what I realized is that people really know themselves. There are certain people that love that zero to 1 million stage, and they'll go and they'll pop from those jobs. And that's what they do. And you can say they're not loyal. You can say all this stuff, but whatever, move on. It's not you. It's like what they do. And I think that that's a really, really important, you know, piece for, for people to remember because people won't stay with you forever. And I think that it kind of goes to this point about hiring people that I think people are confused by, especially in your first startup. You know, it's just, it's people through every stage, they're not going to, they may not be the right people. It's very rare that somebody stays with you in multiple stages. We actually have a handful of those people in Hint that have been, you know, with us 9 years, 13 years. I mean, it's a time. But certainly, it's not very common.

Right. It's not very common. To your point, it's like different people are the right employee for different stages. And I think for a first-time founder in particular, that can just be jarring. Because when they leave, to your point, you take it personally. And what have I done? And it must suck. And it's terrible. But also, what if everybody else leaves? And there's a sort of recurring fantasy of like, oh, is everybody going to leave now? And so, I think it takes time to adjust to an understanding that different people are the right people for your different stage of your business.

Yeah. And I remember something else when I was working at CNN that Ted Turner said that still like sits in my head. Like he always said, when people announce that they're leaving, let them go. Never save a person. I tell managers this all the time because You know, what he made me realize is that people will be thinking about this. There's a lot more that happens before they actually tell you that they're leaving. So they've interviewed, like, there's a lot going on that they didn't share with you. And they thought about things and, you know, for whatever reason, they felt like this was a better opportunity for them. So when you go in and you actually say, you give them more money, or you try and convince them to actually stay. And when that happens and you do, the chances of them actually staying long-term are very low. And often they're actually, maybe they'll entertain you by having this conversation with you, but then they'll use, you know, the additional money to go to their new employer and actually say, well, I want to do this. And that's the way that game works. And I think, like, I can count on a couple of fingers where we've actually broken that rule, and it's never worked. And it really— and I always go back to what Ted Turner used to say at CNN, like, you announce that you're leaving, like, plan on leaving because you're not getting another opportunity. And I think he is— I think it's a really smart thing. And it's something that people need to, because again, you sit there and think, oh my God, I trained this person for so long. What if they leave? And I think there's another lesson that I've learned too, and something I'm probably not great at still to this day, is that if you see some negativity that's going on in your organization, maybe you've lost trust in this person or whatever as well, uh, like you actually need to cut bait on, on that relationship because it rarely gets better. And what it does, to your point earlier, what the big fear is, is that what if one person leaves, then other people leave. You allow a person to sit around for a while who maybe has, you know, a negative opinion or a bad experience of some sort. And it really is like poison. And it, and the person can be a good person. They just cannot actually think straight for whatever reason. So it's better for you just to cut the cord.

Yeah, it's so true. And, you know, I would say that really 201, the founders have that I've talked to, that I deal with, that I coach. All kind of learn that by the time you know you should fire someone, it's probably way— it's usually way late, right? It's like you're late in the game and everybody kind of is already waiting for you to do something. It's a hard— it's one of the hardest lessons, I think, for all founders to learn and really for all leaders to learn. It's just a difficult thing.

It's so difficult. And it's— and, you know, there's never a good time, right? And I mean, there's never a good time. It always happens at a time when you're like, uh, but But I think it's also something that I've learned that I share with fellow CEOs and entrepreneurs. And I think it's easier when you're an entrepreneur and you've sort of were doing all the different jobs in the company. It, like having that ability to step in when you need to, whether, you know, it's a, on direct-to-consumer or SEO or customer service or whatever. And actually knowing what the job entails when you need to hire somebody is really, really important because you can be helpful to your team. I think that the other lesson that I learned when I was working at AOL actually was my boss, this guy Meyer Burleau, was he would always have people in his office and he was always interviewing. And we didn't have any roles that, I mean, for a while he was interviewing and, you know, because we had lots of roles that he was trying to fill, but I mean, he was always interviewing and we always were like, why is he interviewing? I mean, is he interviewing for my job? I know that that person who walked in actually is, you know, kind of has that skill set or whatever. And he said something to me that still rings true. To this day, great words of advice, is that you never know when people are going to leave. One day I actually said to Maira, are you interviewing for my job? I was the VP of e-commerce and shopping partnerships. And he said, I interview all the time. And I said, I know you interview all the time, but are you interviewing somebody for my job? And he said, no, but I never know when you're going to quit. And I never know what anyone's going to do, you know, and, and, or when we'll need people. And so always having options. And I think that that's an important lesson that I use actually for customers, for suppliers as well, because if you don't have options, then when something happens that you're surprised by, um, and things aren't going well or whatever, then, you know, you feel like you're, you're in defense, right? You're, you're definitely trying to, uh, keep your head above water, all of those things. But if you know a few people that, a few companies, suppliers, whatever, you know, that you can reach out to, then you don't feel so stuck. And I think it's the same with people. That when you're constantly interviewing, um, it, and you don't have something right now, but you know, when you need somebody, knowing that you had interviewed somebody is really, it, it's a good thing to do.

It's reassuring. It's just reassuring to know that there are options out there.

And you also know what talent is out there too. Right. And, you know, maybe you also know what you're doing wrong, right? And, and like, you're learning from people what they do, what their expectations are. So I've just found that it's an important part of growing a company as well. And again, I use that for suppliers, I use that for customers, I use it for employees as well. So I think it's, it's a really important— and investors, by the way. I think always being You know, open to having, scheduling yourself a percentage of your time to always be thinking about, okay, this is an area where I don't really have options, um, that I should have options, right? Or I want to learn a little bit more about an industry or, um, you know, I think that's important because a lot of time people are like, oh, we're not hiring. So, you know, we, we shouldn't. Actually be interviewing people, but I think it's an important thing to do.

Yes, very wise. Very, very wise. You know, I'm curious, you've talked a lot also, you know, your book is called Undaunted. You've talked about being undaunted in the way you kind of gamify things. Amazing. Have you ever experienced imposter syndrome or severe self-doubt?

Of course. I think that there's There's a few things, maybe to some extent I gamify that as well. I think about things like what's the worst that can happen along the way? And because you do, you run into people that you think they're doing better than I am. I was actually sharing the story with an entrepreneur in the beverage industry yesterday where I said, I remember when Hint was just starting out and there were, again, I'm in it. I, I'm at the trade shows. I'm in the stores. I'm like watching everything. I'm at distributors. There's all these people that they have better wrap around there. They have more stores. They, um, they have better shirts, like, you know, they have it together. The number of people that I have seen. Like that, and then next year they're gone. They're out of business. I mean, we, we still joke about, about it. Like, you know, there's so many along the way. And so, and it's really hard for you to tell because, you know, you think, oh, they've got it all together, right? They were like this and this and this and, and, uh, and, and then they were gone.

Poof.

Right. And so I think that you have to recognize that you never really know what's going on. It's like a happy, you know, happy marriage, right? Then you hear later on, you're like, whoa, I thought everything was fine. I mean, this is, this is crazy. You never really know what's going on. And so whenever I feel like I— that sneaks in on me, I think that that's an important thing for me to go back to. Again, it's, you know, you never really know what's going on. And I think it's also stop focusing on what you can't control and do the best job that you can do has always been something that has worked for me because when I get caught up in a competition or somebody's doing better than me or they're way ahead and it's unfair in some way. Instead, when I focus on just continuing to move myself, move my company forward, continuing to do better in some way, then it kind of resolves itself. But everyone's lying if you ever hear somebody say that they never they never felt inadequate in some way. And I think that there is one thing that I would say that I often think is really important when you have those people that are around you that are feeding you that insecurity. It doesn't mean you have to you know, totally ghost them or whatever. But I think you just have to make sure that you manage it properly because, right? Like if people are, my mom used to say this all the time. Like when you actually tell people your problem, right? The next time they see you, especially people you like a lot, the next time they see, oh, how's it going? You know? And, you know, because it's, they want, they care, right? And they versus actually, if you want to get out of the situation, you don't want to feel insecure about it. It's not that you don't talk about things, but you have to surround yourself with more people that maybe are going to be helpful, that maybe they're going to, you know, help you get out versus keeping you in.

Right, right. And that they're uplifting and that they're bringing you nourishing, you know, kind of content and not just kind of recycled, you know, negative content or kind of continuing to recycle a story that doesn't help you. It doesn't serve.

No, it's not helping you. And I think, you know, even starting a company, I think that so many people talk about the loneliness of being an entrepreneur and, and, you know, the imposter syndrome and all the things. Check, like, who you're surrounding yourself with, because if you're sitting there head down, you're in your company, you're with your co-founder only, you go back and you call your parents or whoever, your, your best friend, you know, they're going to be focusing on the things that they think you care about, right? That may— and I think oftentimes you need to sort of get out there, surround yourself with some somebody, people that don't really know what's going on or whatever, that might— and maybe people hear your story along the way and they're helpful, but surround yourself with helpers, I guess, especially during, during that time.

I love that. That's good words to live by. Surround yourself with helpers. So just a few more questions, Cara. I'm curious, what do you wish you had known earlier on your journey?

I always used to think that, and I touched on this a little bit earlier, but experience, right? And I think that, you know, the more experience you have, You know, the higher you get up in an organization, you know, that defines you. And I think today, and I think it's sort of coupled, I've thought a lot about this because I think it's sort of coupled with people also trying to figure out who they are, maybe a little bit more too. But just because you're a VP in a company or a CEO of a company, It doesn't mean that, you know, you're wiser. It doesn't mean that, uh, you can't be learning. In fact, I actually encourage people to always, like, be thinking about what else can I be learning and always look for those opportunities because I think the— what I've seen in my journey is that the more experienced people are, when they stop learning, when they actually have said too many times that they're, you know, this high level, they have all this experience, whatever, they're actually not very happy. And I think that the happier you are, the more likely you are to be able to have a longer journey. And I think that, that I didn't know that. I don't think they teach that in school. I think they teach it and that what they teach in in school is, you know, you're an engineer, you're a marketer, you're a tech executive, you're an entrepreneur, whatever it is, versus actually figuring out what people enjoy now. And again, you can change your mind. You've changed your mind, right, over time. And I think most interesting people that I know have actually changed their mind. And yet that's not like really encouraged in school. That's not— I don't know, I just feel like that conversation is not really happening. And yet I wish— I certainly didn't know that. And I didn't know that I was going to be, you know, in media and then in tech and then an entrepreneur in the beverage industry. I mean, it sort of If I heard that somebody had done that, I'd think, wait, how'd you get there? Like, what, what, how did that happen along the way? But more importantly, the reason why I did what I did all along the way is that I was curious. I was constantly learning. I felt like I was solving puzzles along the way. I enjoyed it. All of those things. I, I think titles to this day are silly. I think it's more about responsibility than actual title. Fine if you need a title in order to sort of identify what people do, if they're a manager versus not a manager. But I think that so often people get caught up in the seniority of it and of having a certain title. And also people fear those people. I mean, too, they feel like, oh, I can't reach out to somebody who's a certain title because they're too important. And I think that that is the wrong attitude to have for people, that you just have to, you know, you just have to sort of pretend that they're not CEOs of companies or whatever.

Yep. That's really well said. Absolutely. You know, my last question is this, what advice do do you have for other founders as they embark on their own journeys to grow into leaders?

Well, I touched on this just now. I think always be learning. And I think that the best leaders are people who really, really think that they still have a lot to learn and that they're empathetic. They, they are willing to roll up their sleeves and, and get involved and, and be human. And then I think also we've definitely seen this throughout the pandemic. I think that the best leaders clearly are the people who kind of encompass all of those things and also are willing to kind of share who they are. That they're not perfect and that they have ups and downs along the way. They've had fears. But the key thing that I've seen is that they figure out as leaders, how do they continue moving forward? I think integrity is something that you can never undervalue. Integrity, because I think still to this day, um, you'll be found out if you don't have integrity. And I think that that is something that is really hard to, to kind of wipe away in some way and, and for people to forget as well, that I think it's a, it's a trait that people, if you don't have integrity, I think it's something that, you know, is carried with you for a long time. And, uh, and I think that always be sure as a founder, as a leader, um, to do things that are right. Don't be afraid to speak up. Um, and, you know, you'll have haters along the way, um, that people might want you to do things differently. Um, But keeping integrity at the top of your list is, is really the way to go.

Love it. Love it. Love it. Love it. Kara, thank you so much for your time today.

Thank you.

Kara Golden, author of Undaunted, founder of Hint. So go pick up some Hint and go pick up some Undaunted, the wonderful book, and follow Kara on LinkedIn. Really great to spend time with you. Thank you so much.

So fun. Thank you.

Thanks for listening to From Startup to Grownup. If you like what you heard, give it a review on Apple Podcasts so other people can find it. And if you know of a founder or someone else who is meant to be on this podcast, drop me a line through my website, alisacohn.com.